1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hm, I've got a Baloon Times card. He shan't May 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: when wish about in the fourth grade, I think on 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: that Baloon Times card, he shan't me. He said, we 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: bear hunters. Ain't we're rolling Alvin David's dad. Yeah, his dad, 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: he said, we bear hunters. What grade would have been 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: in the fourth grade. So every every one that was 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: on this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast will continue 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: to explore southern Appalachia. This is Part two. In the 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: final episode in our series on this region, we'll talk 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: to Mr Roy Clark and Ira Jones about bear dogs, 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: and we'll dive into the deep end with Dr Dan 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: Pierce as we try to understand the real story of moonshine, 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Nascar and bear hunting. We'll also talk about a slithery subject, 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: one that you'll have to wait until the end to discover. 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: The very foundation of NASCAR. Is illegal liquor is interesting? Nascar? 16 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: I didn't like to talk about that. It's foundational. My 17 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, 18 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight 19 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of 20 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: Americans who lived their lives close to the Landerney. This 21 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: is Mr Roy's grandson, rail Children's you would have heard 22 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: him seeing on the previous episode as well. On part 23 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: one of this series on Southern Appalachian culture, we define 24 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: the region as the southern one third of the Appalachian 25 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: Mountain Range. We met the Clark family from East Tennessee 26 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: and discussed their farming, bear hunting, and we heard them 27 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: play some music. We then talked to Dr Daniel Pierce 28 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: about the history of the region, where the people came from, 29 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: and how the culture of the region was formed. If 30 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to that one, you ought to go 31 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: back and check it out. On this second and final 32 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: episode in the series, will be talking again with Mr 33 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: Roy Clark, but we'll also meet his friend Ira Jones 34 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: as we dived deeper into their bear hunting, and I'll 35 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: jump back to Dr Pierce. We'll discuss moon shine and 36 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: NASCAR and one secret topic. Before I jump in, I 37 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: want to reiterate a few things. Number One, the Appalachian 38 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: region is a very diverse and modern part of the 39 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: United States. I've chosen to highlight rural Appalachia just because 40 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: I love it and I know some great people that 41 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: are a part of it. Secondly, you may remember the 42 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: conclusion we came to at the end of the last podcast. 43 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: Understanding the mechanisms of why things are the way they 44 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: are grants us a better opportunity of valuing that culture 45 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: and the culture of someone else. I think that's important. 46 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make heroes or villains. I'm just 47 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: trying to tell an American story. Tell me what makes 48 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: what makes a good looking plot? How to you? We'll 49 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 1: just see how he's making and how he's not real 50 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: big and he's uh uh, he's about together good and 51 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: stone up, getting on his shrimp feet and straight and stuff. 52 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: She strint that will beat your front feet use okay, 53 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: strange so you want their their legs just to go 54 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: down that. This is Mr Roy Clark and his friend 55 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: Ira Jones looking over a fine pack of plot bear dogs. 56 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: Who's your favorite color? He is that color right there? 57 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: How would you describe that color? Black? Yards? It looks black? 58 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: Can you get up to it? And you see the 59 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: brandle in it? So right here, you know, I mean, 60 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: you see it. But if he was right down the honor, 61 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: he's just a black dog. And I've paid attention to 62 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: that when he told me that been a long time ago. 63 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: When that's I looked for that a lot. They said 64 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: twenty yards and just look black. And then you get 65 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: right upon him, you start seeing them strip time. They're 66 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: black dogs that are black. Yeah. Roy's life and in 67 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: apple Actia he's he is Southern apple Actian my opinion. 68 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: And and that's I mean from the music to that, 69 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: this is what you're welcome. You won't ever come here 70 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: that you won't feel welcome. I won't care if it's 71 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: at midnight. You'll feel welcome. His wife will make you 72 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: feel that way. He'll make you feel that way. His naphew, 73 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: all the family will scott son him long into a 74 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: wonderful people. And that's Southern apple Atian right there. That's 75 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: the voice of Mr Ira Jones, who is the friend 76 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: and hunting partner of Roy Clark. These two breed and 77 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: raise hunting dogs together. However, to understand the closeness of 78 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: their friendship, I'll need to fill you in on a 79 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: cultural nuance that may not be intuitive. It's this, raising 80 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: bare dogs together requires a high level human bond. Much 81 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: trust is involved. Family lines of dogs are typically closely guarded, 82 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: not because they want to be kept from others, but 83 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: simply because they've got no dogs to spare, and they 84 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: simply aren't for sale. In a pet world, you can 85 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: buy stud services or puppies from breeders, but in many 86 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: parts of the bare hound world this isn't the case. 87 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: All this to say is that Ira is a great 88 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: friend of Roy. Well, I'm just you know, listening here 89 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: and and thinking Roy and and our friendship. And one 90 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: thing that really stands out a lot to make with 91 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: Roy is, you know, to have a friend, you've got 92 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: to be a friend. And Roy really understands that is 93 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: as good as anybody I know. And you know, we 94 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: all watch the good times in her life. And when 95 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: things good, you know, when things ain't going so good, 96 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: a little si ignission, trouble, you can't on Roy here, 97 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: call on and he he just he's consistent in that. 98 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: And you know, I was listening to Install about some 99 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 1: of the hunting and and he's he's the very best 100 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: at this right here. He wants everybody to have a 101 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: good time. Most people you hunt with rather show you 102 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: third dolls. And you're hunting with me today, And and Roy, 103 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: he worries about everybody on the hunt to have a 104 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: good time, and he wants his dolls to do good 105 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: and they will and they're well polished. Hand. He wants 106 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: everybody else to have good time too and get their 107 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: dogs and any people, and that stuff is just it's 108 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: just foreign to a lot of people, you know. The 109 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: it's it's very competitive anyway. And Roy does his best 110 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: to keep that out of it. And and he's a 111 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: man of his word and what he says he means, 112 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: and he's truthful in it, and he's he's awesome, He 113 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: really is. I've never met anybody like him and and 114 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: and I truly mean that he he knows how to 115 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: be a friend. And that's something that most of us forgot. 116 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: We want friends, we don't really like being a friend. 117 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, Ira went on to talk some about ploth hounds, 118 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: no doubt. I mean, when you when you're talking about dogs, 119 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: and I've hunted a lot, you're gonna see some guns 120 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: and all them battens and all of them. And and 121 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: we're not claiming the plot dog is the superior a 122 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: number one made ever needs you got, But it's if 123 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: you get behind it. I've always said this just because 124 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: the dogs, Brent le don't mean that I'm I might 125 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: look at him a little closer, but it's about bloodlines. 126 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: And that's something that we're pretty rich into, is the bloodlines. 127 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: We're not just hunting the color. We're hunting a particularly 128 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: type of dog that his family for generations has had 129 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: big influence in and like to feel like we've had 130 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: a little influence in in a bloodline as well on 131 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: our side of things. And these you know, that's kind 132 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 1: of where it's sad. It's these bloodlines. I was looking 133 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: today before come over at some papers. I was trying 134 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: to track down some papers and just looking back and 135 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: half far back, we're going on some of these dogs 136 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: and I like that. And uh, you know, heavy fan 137 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: of line breed. And I know Roy is me U 138 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: hound dog blues. What's this song about the hound dog blues? 139 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: This is Jill Mr Roy's daughter. See, well, you're old 140 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: hound dog sure looks a lot like you. You're old 141 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: hound dog sure looks a lot like you. Every time 142 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: you see him, always give the hound dog glue dog blue. 143 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: Mr Roy is seventy two years old in a native 144 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: of East Tennessee. I asked him about his history with 145 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: the breed of dog that he's been involved with his 146 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: whole life. Tell me about your history with plot hounds. Well, 147 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: and it's just like it's just like what I said. 148 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: I was born into buyar hunting, and I was sort 149 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: of borne into plockhound dogs too. I ain't saying that 150 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: that made them be better dogs and other dogs. I 151 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: just sort of water I growed up with and uh, 152 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 1: they we shold her had some plots in My Grandpa 153 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: had a plot or two, and Daddy had a plot 154 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: or two. But then when Charles can't come into the picture, 155 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: which was in the early fities, and then he bread 156 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: plots and him and Daddy went places and got the 157 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: dogs at the bread did Charles bread to start with 158 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: to get his foundation going. And he made a big 159 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 1: breeder plothhound. So we had plots to hunt and we 160 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: could get anything we wanted off a charge and honey 161 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: water we keep it or not, just back and forth, 162 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: you know. And I guess I just growed to the 163 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: plot doll. But then I've owned a number one walker 164 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: and a number one blue tig and and a few 165 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: more that's been mixed up through the years early years 166 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 1: that could match up to the plot dogs. But I 167 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:22,719 Speaker 1: guess it's a whole. I've just got to see more 168 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: old plots and and I have anything else. I actually believe. 169 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: My belief on the plot dogs is is uh, they 170 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: all in gonna make number one bar dolls. But I 171 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: believe you will get more old plot dogs and you 172 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 1: will any other break And I really believe that now 173 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: they these people who probably won't gree women there. You 174 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: folks are a very diverse audience. So I've got to 175 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: explain something very serious that just happened. A small percentage 176 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: of you just got your feelings hurt when Mr Roy 177 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: declared his devoted a leege and love of the plot 178 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: dog because you don't hunt plots, and you wish that 179 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: this podcast was about the breed of dog that you hunt. 180 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: And there's a much smaller group of you who are 181 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: plot dog junkies that just got validated and are pumping 182 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: that five star rating on iTunes right now. This is 183 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: exactly why I love houndsman. They're so dang passionate. But 184 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: most of you people don't have any reference at all 185 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: of what a good breed of bare dog is. So 186 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: you have to trust me when I say that this 187 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: is a contentious topic that Narrea podcaster dared delve into 188 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: you see, there are multiple breeds of hounds. The United 189 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: Kennel Club registers treeing walkers, blue Ticks, black and Tans, 190 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: red bones, English and American leopard hounds. All of these 191 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: breeds can be used for bear hunting, and plot are 192 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: a minority percentage by far. Most would agree that some 193 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: variation of the walker hound dominates the hound world. Walkers 194 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: are a beautiful, tricolored white, black and brown dog. They're 195 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: wildly popular and that's probably why this podcast isn't about them. 196 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: The plot dog is known for the cult like devotion 197 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: of their owners and the unique story of the formation 198 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: of the breed, but that's for a future conversation. Consider 199 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: yourself informed. So the plot hound was developed in these 200 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: mountains in this region. What does the plot dog mean 201 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: to you besides just being a dog that you can 202 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: use to go catch a bear? I mean, do you 203 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: feel like you have some deep emotional connection to a 204 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: to a plot hound? Feel that? And I've got too 205 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: many now, but it's short of like on in a 206 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: O and and sell you a racking horse or a 207 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: walking horse and you get used to down well, then 208 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: a quarter horse or a non gated horse that trots 209 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: and jars you to death. You don't like it. You 210 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: like that good smooth ride of that running walk or 211 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: that racking horse. You get close to the plot and 212 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: to me, they'll make a house dog byar dog and 213 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: maybe the quintess now you've ever seen might be the 214 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: best bar dog you've ever seen. And I'm sure if 215 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: you had walkers, or you had blue Teach, or you 216 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: had something else, and that's what you bread and that's 217 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: what you got used to, that's what you'd like. But 218 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: I just got into the plots and I had an 219 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: easy excess to them, and and that's just what I like. Well, 220 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: it really is part of the mountain culture over here 221 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: in the story of the Plothhound and so unique. Yes 222 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: you know that we we was live so close to 223 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: where the plot started from. Did they give some better 224 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: we had a better shot it getting plots instead? Well, 225 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: I just say this much about the hunting and about 226 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: and and I was sitting right over and fast for 227 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: me a little bit. I buy hunted a long time, 228 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: and I mostly hunted plot dogs. But everybody can hunt 229 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: whatever they want to. That just what I'm mostly honey, 230 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: And I feel like in my lifetime that that we've 231 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: owned some good at dogs that you could buy. And 232 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: I feel good about the dogs that we've owned and 233 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: bread and trained ourselves and not had to go out 234 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: and buy dogs, didn't have the money to buy them, 235 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: no way, and all the dogs we've used just what 236 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: we've trained our shelves. So I feel like that's a 237 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: good accnfidence And I feel like I've owned dogs able 238 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: to hunted with anybody they know that wanted to buy her. 239 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: And I don't feel like I've been ashamed that that's 240 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: saying that that's what I think you knew in effort 241 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: to understand hunting in the human bond that produces I 242 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: want to let you listen to a short clip which 243 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: is completely taken out of context, so you have to 244 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: pay attention for it to make sense, but the moment 245 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: involves real tears. In twenty nineteen, on my former podcast, 246 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: the Bear Hunting Magazine Podcast, I interviewed Mr Roy in 247 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: the Laurel Mountain Bear Hunters, which is basically the long 248 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: time friends that he hunts with. It includes father's sons, daughters, 249 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: old and young alike. In this clip, Mr Roy is 250 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: talking about a Valentine's Day card he got when he 251 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: was in the fourth grade from a man named Floyd 252 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: ray Ford, who is not in the room, but Floyd's son, 253 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: Alvin David is in the room and is now in 254 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: his mid fifties. Alvin David is not miked up, but 255 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: Mr Roy's attention. Hearns to Alvin David and he begins 256 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: to speak to him. I've got a Valentine's card in 257 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: here he sent me when we was about in the 258 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: fourth grade, I think. And on that Valentine's card he 259 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: sent me, he said, we bear hunters. Ain't we're rolling? 260 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: That was his dad, Alvin David's dad. Yeah, his dad, 261 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: he said, we bear hunters. Hunter what grade would you? 262 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: How old would you have been? Was in the fourth grade, 263 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: so every everyone that was how long ago? That about 264 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: nine years old? Yeah, and something like that. So you 265 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 1: stuck with you went ahead and just stuck with that identity, 266 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: didn't you. Yeah, his dad he sort of left us 267 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: coming and went something. He back, Now, maybe you'll stay, 268 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: but that board, right, Chanter, ain't never bird today, buddy, 269 00:17:53,280 --> 00:18:02,719 Speaker 1: mm hmmm mm hmm, yeah, mm hmm. I love him. 270 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I love it, dude. Yep. That that just 271 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: shows you clary what I mean it means to us. 272 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's a it's beyond just uh going out 273 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: and having a big time hunting. It's beyond just uh, 274 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: um a group of guys here hanging out in in 275 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: boy's house. You know. It's our life. Yeah, you know, 276 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: it's uh something we've all grown up doing all the 277 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: way back through and it's just, uh, it's a bond. Yeah, 278 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: it really is. It really is. Should he won't leave you, batty, 279 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: he won't leave yet there and correct one yesterday, Yeah, 280 00:18:54,119 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: m M. I wanted to get a perspective for Mr 281 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: Roy about moonshine in the region. Part of this section. 282 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 1: You would have heard in part one of this series. 283 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: My daddy and grandpa, an uncle and some of their 284 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: close friends and probably turned me against drinking and stuff 285 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: because they stayed drunk all the time, and you don't drink. No, 286 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: I ain't never drunk. So you you said you saw 287 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: the moonshine as a negative thing, you know, because there's 288 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: a there's a stereotype. This region is known for making 289 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: moonshine and liquor, and it's kind of been glorified in 290 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: some way. But there's a lot of real negative stuff 291 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: that came without any If they was anything to munshine, 292 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: it was good out of it. To me would have 293 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: been shilling it and getting the money to have to 294 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: live upon. Other than that, I didn't see nothing good 295 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: at it, And I always talked to my ship, I 296 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: ain't gonna never drink. I put up with it my 297 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: whole life, and I ain't gonna be like it for 298 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: somebody to have to put up for me. Like, yeah, 299 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: we've now heard from Mr Roy and Mr Ira Jones. 300 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: We've heard them talk about their bear hunting and dogs 301 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: and a bit about moonshine. Now I want to shift 302 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: gears and talk again with Dr Daniel Pearce at the 303 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: University of North Carolina Asheville. He's an author in national 304 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: authority on the Southern Appalachian culture, and I want to 305 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: talk with him about moonshine, NASCAR, and bear hunting, all 306 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: of these things he's written extensively about in his books. 307 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: You can look some of them up. And we'll tiptoe 308 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: into the bonus topic that I did not want to advertise, 309 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: but I'm about to leak it out, snake handling churches. 310 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: So tell me about how liquor played an influence in 311 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: the culture here. It was huge, you know, for one thing. 312 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: And my mother didn't like this at all, you know, 313 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: you know culturally, you know, one of these things that 314 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: this Scott's Irish brought was the Gaelic word I can't 315 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: even pronounce it, but for liquor, it's like water of life, 316 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, So, I mean it was it was you know, 317 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: it's a big part of life. It was just common yeah, 318 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know their stories even though 319 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: they were Protestants, a lot of even though I was 320 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: there processing I mean, you know, probition doesn't doesn't come 321 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: into the picture really too. The late eighteen hundred's early 322 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: twentieth century, there was no disability. I mean, you could 323 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: be a Baptist preacher, you know, and you know Jack 324 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: Daniels Um who wasn't his I think it was his 325 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: adopted father, you know, who taught him, you know, how 326 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: to make liquors supposedly, you know, it was a preacher, 327 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: you know. So there wasn't any sort of disability, you know, 328 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: during that period of the of the late seventeen hundreds, 329 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: in first half of the or really to the end 330 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: of the eighteen hundreds about making or drinking liquor as 331 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: long as you you know, the churches would frown on 332 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: people being drunk all the time or being abusive and stuff. 333 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,880 Speaker 1: But you know, liquor was a big part of culture. 334 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: It was a big part of medicine. You know, people 335 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: would say, okay, here, here are good herbs, but you 336 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: really need the liquor to make it work. And of 337 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: course the liquor made at least feel a little better. 338 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, it dull the pain, you know, that type 339 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: of thing. So it was a big part of cures. 340 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: Did the actual distillation of what will become known as moonshine? 341 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: Was that process unique two America or was that exactly 342 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: what they were doing in Ireland? Yeah, yeah, it's same. 343 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: It's the same thing. Yeah. And again in a lot 344 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: of cases, they you know, they would bring a small 345 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: steal with them. The cultural importance, the economic importance is 346 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: is huge, and people have this notion of subsistence and 347 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 1: how people provided for all their own needs. But there 348 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: are certain things you can't do with that. One of 349 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: those things that you can't pay your taxes. You can't 350 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: pay your property at tax, and these people had to 351 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: pay property tax in order to keep their land. There 352 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: weren't a lot of ways to get cash. You could 353 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: there are some like medicinal or like jen Singh in particular, 354 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: that had a high value, or you sold hogs or cattle, 355 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: but the most dependable source of cash for people in 356 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: this region, and this continued after you get into the 357 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: federal excise tax, which makes most much of it production 358 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: illegal is liquor. So in the just in the twentieth century, 359 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 1: there was a prohibition on liquor. I'm trying to find 360 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: out how this was. This was illegal because there was 361 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: a time when it wasn't. So there was a prohibition 362 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: on liquor and people were making it illegally. And then 363 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: number two, I guess it would have been people making 364 00:23:55,359 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: untaxed liquor or making liquor illegally and not being so 365 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: described to me how it was became so original. I mean, 366 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: people look at this, you know, and and talking about moonshine, 367 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: and they say, oh, prohbition, And I said, well, for 368 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: forty years or so, it's not probition. Because eighteen sixty 369 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: two the U. S. Congress passes an excise tax on liquor, 370 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: which is still on effect of this day now. They've 371 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: been tried once before by Alexander Hamilton's resulted in the 372 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: Whiskey re Bay and in Pennsylvania and widespread ignoring it 373 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: in other parts of the country. Thomas Jefferson got elected 374 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: at least partly because he pledged that when he got 375 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: elected that excise tax on liquor was going away, and 376 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: it did. And so for you know, for you know, 377 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: up until eighteen sixty two, you know, from roughly eighteen 378 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: o one to eighteen well actually and before Alexander Hamilton's 379 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 1: it was perfectly legal to make anybody anybody can make yeah, 380 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: sell it any amount. Eighteen sixty two, they of course, 381 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: this isn't the miss of the Civil War didn't have impact, 382 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: or didn't it didn't have any impact in the Confederate States, 383 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: But then what's the wars over with their subject to 384 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: this excise tax. So you had to make a decision 385 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: to pay the tax. One in order to get a 386 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: license to make liquor, you had to make a significant amount. 387 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: Most of these people are making, you know, relatively small 388 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: amounts for their own consumption and for you know, as 389 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,719 Speaker 1: a as a barter item or you know, cash item. 390 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: And they're not making enough to qualify. Even if you 391 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: are and if you're making you know, right, just over 392 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: the limit, you're not making enough to make any profit. 393 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: I can see what's happening here. They're getting set up 394 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: for a kind of an outlaw culture. Well you can't. Yeah, okay, again, 395 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: this is deeply embedded in their culture. This is incredibly important. 396 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: The government comes in, who they probably distrust anyway, Well, 397 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: it's you know, in Confederate States, yeah, I mean, and 398 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: there there are plenty of union It's like Mike Ken, 399 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: you know who my great great grandfather fought in the 400 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: for the uniw cavalry, you know, and so and that 401 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: whole thing of independence. And this is my right, you know, 402 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: this is my god given right to make liquor. And 403 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: and of course, you know, the not a lot of 404 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,719 Speaker 1: respect for the federal government in in much of the region, 405 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: and even people that supported the Union didn't didn't think 406 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: it was appropriate for the government to do this, you know, 407 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: and again for for for for most people, and they 408 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: couldn't make any profit off of making it legally and 409 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: paying the tax. And so you have to ask your 410 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: yourself a question, Okay, am I gonna do make it legally? 411 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: That's pretty much either question for most people or am 412 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: I gonna quit making it? Or am I gonna make 413 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: it illegally? And and there is kind of a misconception 414 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: about moonshine because not everybody who's making moonshine is like 415 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: a career moonshine maker. You know. These are mainly small 416 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: farmers who make it in the you know, in the 417 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: off months. It's it's kind of an office, you know, 418 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 1: after the harvest and before you start planning. It's cooler, 419 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: that's a better time to make liquor. Anyway, you don't 420 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: want to make it in a hot weather. It's hard, 421 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: it's it's it doesn't make a good liquor. And so 422 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: you know, that's part of their seasonal thing, you know. 423 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: And so most people are doing it again, you know, 424 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: not making a lot. But now of course they have 425 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: to get more creative in terms. They can't just go 426 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: walk in the store now, you know, with a local 427 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: liquor and and exchange it or or get cash for 428 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 1: so they've got to find new ways to to market it. 429 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: And then when prohibition comes in in the thirties, winded prohibition, 430 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 1: Probition comes in actually in much of the Southern Appalachian region. 431 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: Most states passed um what we're called local option laws, 432 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: where like a county or a municipality could make their 433 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: liquor laws. And so they may say you can't make 434 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: liquor within so many miles of a school or a 435 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: church or something like that. And and and pretty quickly 436 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: a lot of counties go dry. And then you get 437 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: statewide movements like North Carolina, for instance, becomes a dry 438 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: state in one of the first in the South in 439 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: UH nineteen o nine, nineteen o nine, so well before 440 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: national prohibition much of the South. And does that mean 441 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: you couldn't buy or sell? Can't buy sell make legally, 442 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 1: you know? And so this is this eliminates the legal thing, 443 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: which is great if you're an illegal producer. Prohibition is 444 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: the best thing that ever happened to these guys because demand, 445 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: because the demands skyrockets for them because there's no legal production, 446 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: there's no legal sell. This is a good place to 447 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: give an overview. National prohibition was in effect from nineteen 448 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: twenty to nineteen thirty three, and during this time, making 449 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: or selling alcohol it was illegal. So overnight, distilling liquor 450 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: became an incredibly profitable business. However, in many states and 451 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: counties it was illegal long before that, and many made 452 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: it illegally to avoid taxation and permitting. Maybe this is obvious, 453 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: but moonshine got its name because distillers made liquor at 454 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: night under the light of the moon. The process requires heat, 455 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: which means you have to have fire, and fire makes smoke, 456 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: which can be seen in the daylight. Prohibition led to 457 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: a period of organized crime that was fueled by distillers. 458 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: Speakeasies started to pop up all over the country, which 459 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: were basically secret and illegal bars where illicit alcohol was served. Yeah, 460 00:29:33,200 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: Newly was a good bench the man back to Dr Pierce, 461 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: you know, there is some evidence that that prohibition may 462 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: have lowered consumption a little, but it's the demand' it's 463 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: a it's a set. I mean, like if you if 464 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: you understand culture at all, you see how this would 465 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: become something that would be in some ways very negatively 466 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: viewed upon by some groups and then other groups very positively. 467 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: Just like it would become significant in the culture just 468 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: by the way the laws, and particularly in rural areas. 469 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you get most of your prohibition 470 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: put coming out of the towns and the growing cities. 471 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: And you know, mill owners are very interested in it 472 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: because they don't want their workers drinking, you know. And 473 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: and and there's a racial component to they want to 474 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: keep alcohol out of the hands of African America. Could 475 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: they see that as a disruptive thing? Uh? And potential 476 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: trouble there. Uh. And so a lot of this actual 477 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: prohibition stuff comes in alongside white supremacy campaigns and Jim 478 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: Crow laws and stuff like that. You know, in the 479 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: early twentieth century. Let me let me ask you this. 480 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: I had somebody that I really respect give this perspective 481 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: to me. And he's Appalachian guy, big time. He said 482 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: that the moonshiners, and I think he was particularly talking 483 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: about the moonshiners during Prohibition were like the meth dealers 484 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: of our time. And so his whole point is, why 485 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: are we glorifying these guys that had such a negative 486 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: effect on society? And I and I'm certain there are 487 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: placed there are situations where what he's saying is like true, 488 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: because he said, he said, Clay, there's been a lot 489 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: of Appalachian women and kids beating neglected because of moonshine. 490 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: And you know, and he had a strong point to me, 491 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: tell me, do you feel like that's an accurate depiction? 492 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: Well as part of the story, and uh, you know, 493 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: there are and actually their families that you can trace 494 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: and say, okay, moonshine, they made moonshine and the you know, 495 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: you know, and that continues, and then they get into 496 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: the late sixties or something, that market drives up, they 497 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: start growing marijuana, you know, and then later they're gonna 498 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: move in the math and stuff like that. So that 499 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: that happens, and for sure, uh moonshine, you know, not 500 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: always in in uh homage to my mother, you know, 501 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: I always have to point out the negative sides of this, 502 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: you know. So there there are a lot of there's 503 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 1: a lot of downside to it, you know, in terms 504 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: of of you know, what it did to families. The 505 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: other thing is that people kind of now because there's 506 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: kind of a craft almost craft moonshine movement now, you know. 507 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: And then to quote legal moonshine business, you know, and 508 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: they're these notions about oh, these fine liquor makers. You know, 509 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: most of the stuff they make was just horrible, I mean, 510 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: and they would put and of course, you know, because 511 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: it's not regulated, who knows what's in it, you know. 512 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: And they used all kinds of things from chicken maneer 513 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: to lie to buckeyes too, you know, anything because what 514 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: they wanted to do well. And and one other thing, 515 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: when probition comes on big time, the whole recipe for 516 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: liquor changes and it's much less corn and a lot 517 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: of refined sugar, which which distills much quicker and at 518 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: a higher proof than than just corn. You know. The 519 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: traditional recipe was, you know, basically you've got corn meal, 520 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: you've got corn, malt and water, and you let it 521 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: sit for a week and you know, in in barrels 522 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: or something like that, and it makes what they call 523 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: a beer. And then you take that you pour it 524 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: in and steal and you distill it, you know, and 525 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: it goes to the coal and all that. But that changes, 526 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, and this and this uh sugar liquor as 527 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: they call it, you know, I mean it's call it 528 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: bust head and stingo and it's just and stuff, and 529 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: again you don't know what's in it, you know. And 530 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: again particularly later when you get like people start using 531 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: galvanized metal, I mean that gets you get a lot 532 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 1: of people getting sick or you get people dying, Yeah, 533 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: because of the lead ascitates, you know that that goes 534 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: into it. People are are using you know, car radiators 535 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: for condensers, you know, so you don't know, and so 536 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: they're you know, there are a lot of potential problems 537 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: on the other side of that. And I think the 538 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: thing is missing from a lot of Moonshine stories is 539 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: that for a lot of people, they were involved in 540 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 1: this business for a relatively short period of time, usually 541 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: probably as a young man or as you know. One thing, 542 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: I've found lots of women, uh involved, particularly in selling 543 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: you know, widows, women who have been abandoned, and so 544 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: people use it as kind of an insurance kind of thing, 545 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: or as a way as a young person to get together, 546 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: you know what they call a grub steak, you know, 547 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 1: make some cash money, buy land or you know, do 548 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: whatever you know, and then you go. I've got a 549 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: friend who'd written a really good book called The Spirits 550 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: of Just Men, and he kind of looks at his 551 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: own family history as kind of a framework for this 552 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: book on Moonshine, and his grandfather told him like when 553 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: he was at eight, he had no clues. Grandfather was 554 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 1: like a pillar community in a rural community in in Virginia, 555 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 1: just you know, he'd deacon in the Baptist church and 556 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: so respected in the community. Total teetotaler, and uh he 557 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: tells him that, yeah, you know, when I was fourteen, 558 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: I left home. I went to work in a cotton mill, 559 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: and when I had enough money, I got a car 560 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: and then a hearty started hauling liquor to West Virginia, 561 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: to the cold town. And uh. It was like he 562 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: was shocked, you know, and so you know, he couldn't 563 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: believe it. But you know, he made enough money. He 564 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,800 Speaker 1: comes back home with this money, he buys land again 565 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: and eats the pillar of the community, you know, and 566 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: nobody and never breathe a word of what he's done. 567 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: So there's so many families. So again there's that negative side, 568 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: but there's also this side where it was again for 569 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people, you know, a way that they 570 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: could hold onto their land or buy land, or you know, 571 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: get started in life, or or get through a bad 572 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: patch in their life. And one of the things, because 573 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: there's kind of this notion about moonshiners kind of being 574 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: these ignorant rednecks, you know, stupid overall wearing hill Billy, 575 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: A lot of your moonshiners were your more I think, 576 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: intelligent entrepreneurial types. And some of these people, you know, 577 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: got pretty successful at it. In fact, if you look 578 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: one of the things, there are a lot of things 579 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: I can't prove, but I believe pretty strongly you can 580 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: look at some major or well lots of businesses and 581 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: even major international corporations who got their start and finance 582 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: capital from proceeds of illegal alcohol. Because these people, you know, 583 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: and if you're really good at it, and and some 584 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: of these people you know, by the well twin it's 585 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: thirty four and they're making me. And if you've got 586 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: that much cash you can't walk into a bank with 587 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: you gotta do something with it. You gotta do something 588 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: with it. And so you know, you can see and 589 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: it's really interesting to look at some of these really 590 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: heavily you know, counties that have a lot of a 591 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: big reputation in turns of moonshine. And then look at 592 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: some of the corporations that come out of these places. 593 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: You gotta ask, okay, you know, or banks even they 594 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: get their starting some old they've got the exactly you know. 595 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: So again there it's a it's a you know, for 596 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: for for most people though, it's it's it's part of subsistence, 597 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's part of getting by, it's part of 598 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: paying my property tax. This is a good place to 599 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: tell you a family story related to moonshine. My family. 600 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: Such stories are fairly common in this part of the world. 601 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: You may remember my sweet mother Judy from a few 602 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: podcasts back. We call her Juju. She's as close to 603 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: a perfect mom as possible. But there are a few 604 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 1: mysterious secrets lurking in our famili's past. Her father, Houston Millsap, 605 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: was born in nineteen sixteen near Waldron, Arkansas. He became 606 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: a teenager during the peak of Federal Prohibition. The full 607 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: story isn't known, but he worked for a family of 608 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 1: moonshiners that the authorities were dead set on busting. We 609 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: don't think he was involved in actually making liquor, but 610 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: he was associated with this family. When he was sixteen 611 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: years old, he was apprehended in question about his knowledge 612 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: of the illegal operation. His mouth was sealed shut and 613 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: he would not leak a drop of information. This is 614 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 1: where some of the mystery lies. I don't know how 615 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: they got away with this, but because he wouldn't talk, 616 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: they sent him away to a juvenile detention center for 617 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: extended period of time. My mother was told that quote. 618 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: When he came back, he was skinny and wouldn't talk 619 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: about what happened there. A couple of things here, potentially 620 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,959 Speaker 1: positive and negative. When my father spoke of his father 621 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 1: in law, he said Houston was honest to a fault. 622 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 1: He wouldn't turn in those moonshiners even when it would 623 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: have gotten him out of trouble. This was viewed as honorable. However, 624 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 1: my mother and wife collectively said to me, Clay, if 625 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: your son was working for some meth dealers and went 626 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,200 Speaker 1: to jail because he wouldn't tell on them, do you 627 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: think that would be honorable? The time and that detention 628 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: center changed Houston's life, most likely for the worst. These 629 00:39:55,080 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: ladies make a strong point with that story. We're gonna 630 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: switch gears. Dr Pierce wrote a book called Real Nascar, 631 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: White Lightning, Red Clay and Big Bill France. I wanted 632 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: to get some context on NASCAR. Dr Pierce tell me 633 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: how NASCAR fits into Appalachic culture. Well, first off, when 634 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: I first started doing research on NASCAR, I really thought 635 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 1: because a lot of you know, when you get into 636 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: the details of stuff, it's always a lot more complicated 637 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: than you think. You know, a lot of the stereotypes 638 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: and the standard stories or you know, or kind of 639 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 1: myths and stuff, and so the myth and Nascar, you know, 640 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: it was a whole These Moonshiners were you know, when 641 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: the automobile came in. You know, they got very good 642 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: at modifying them, and they're out running the law, you know, 643 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: and these these uh you know, I don't know if 644 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: you know the movie thunder Road or anything, you know, 645 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: or the Dukes of Hazard, you know that, you know, 646 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: so these good old boys, you know, and hopping up 647 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: these cars, you know, we come and then they start racing, 648 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,080 Speaker 1: you know, and that and so I thought, you know, 649 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: that's that's a great story. And and for sure there 650 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: were people like that. I mean, Junior Johnson is a 651 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 1: very much a legend, you know, and he obviously he 652 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: had a criminal record. He served time in the federal penitentiary, 653 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: you know for moonshine is. His family had deep roots, 654 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: you know, and I thought, well, there's some Junior Johnson's, 655 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,919 Speaker 1: but that's exaggerated and so and so I really thought, 656 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: you know, what I'd find was that moonshine didn't have 657 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: that much of an impact. But as I put it 658 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: in the introduction of the book, said, the deeper I looked, 659 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: the more liquor I found. And so it just really permeated. 660 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: And so most of the most of the early drivers 661 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: were people that gained their first high speed driving experience 662 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: behind the wheel of a car haul and liquor, you know, 663 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, and developed mechanical ability. But but then as 664 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,640 Speaker 1: a sport develops in the late thirties and early forties, 665 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, you see people who are mechanics. I mean, 666 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, a good way to make a living in 667 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: any of these regions was to work on cars, and 668 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 1: particularly moonshiners cars because they paid cash, you know, and 669 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: so you know, so some of these people got really good, 670 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, some of the moonshiners themselves. But you know, 671 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: the local mechanics got really good because they had a 672 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: lot of money to work on things in the senator 673 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: to do that, you know, and so then that translates 674 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: into racing. Then you got, Okay, these people have cash 675 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: they need to do something with. So a lot of 676 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,759 Speaker 1: the promoters were people who were kind of big time 677 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: in the liquor business and they're moving cash. And then 678 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,080 Speaker 1: even the people that built the racetracks in the early days, 679 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: a lot of them were liquor money or liquor. Did 680 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: NASCAR start here? NASCAR starts, you know, technically in Daytona, 681 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,479 Speaker 1: Daytona Beach Bill France, who was a mechanic who moved 682 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,799 Speaker 1: to the area, and he gets involved. They originally raced 683 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: on the beach at Daytona. That was the biggest race 684 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: of the year. But then it spreads through the region. 685 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: And as it spreads through the region, these moonshiners start 686 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 1: coming in and all of a sudden you've got people 687 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 1: like Lloyd C shows up in Atlantic Lakewood Speedway were 688 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: one of the first big stock car races there. He's 689 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: eighteen years old, nobody's heard of him, and he wins 690 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: the race. You when the Atlanta Constitution has an article 691 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 1: the next day that says, nobody heard Lloyd C. And 692 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: he comes out of nowhere to be, you know, to 693 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 1: win this race against some of the top race drivers 694 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: in the country. You know, he said, nobody heard of 695 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: it except for the Atlanta police. And yeah, and at 696 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,279 Speaker 1: a teen, he already had a long record and reputation. 697 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: The other day he said, uh, he said, if you 698 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: want to find the real race car drivers, he said, 699 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 1: find the revenue officers that were good at catching these guys. Well, 700 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: the revenue officers were generally outgun because they were driving 701 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,879 Speaker 1: some crappy government car, you know. And this guy had 702 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, every performance part you could buy to California 703 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: on it. So uh and so you know, all the 704 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: way from you know, Bill France. I mean, there's some 705 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: questions about Bill France, but you know, and and France 706 00:43:55,480 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 1: family still owns a NASCAR He he definitely knew lots 707 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: of people, and you know, he always denied that he 708 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: knew anything about it, but he knew and and actually 709 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 1: was business partners with lots of people. And again you 710 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: know most of the people again track owners, promoters, car owners, mechanics, 711 00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: and then drivers themselves. You know, we're people who got 712 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: their experience or their money, you know, out of illegally. 713 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,160 Speaker 1: So the very foundation of NASCAR is illegal liquor. That 714 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: is interesting. NASCAR didn't like to talk about that. Have 715 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: it's foundational. You know, I tell you who else can 716 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: drive good? And the Appalachians and that's Bear Hunters Um 717 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,360 Speaker 1: modern day bear hunters trying to cut off dog races. 718 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me what you know about bear hunting 719 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: with hounds? Not what we were earlier. We talked about 720 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,399 Speaker 1: how uh and there was a free range hog culture here, 721 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: pretty dominant and those guys would have like for sure 722 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: been using dogs to round it up. Is that where 723 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: we uh? Well, North Carolina, that's part of the world 724 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: has such a rich history with hound hunting from the plothound, 725 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: which is the state dog in North Carolina, which was 726 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: a bear and hog dog, a big game dog. Tell 727 00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 1: me what you know about bear hunting with hounds. Yeah, 728 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 1: this is part of the German influence actually, you know, 729 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: the hunting with hounds because again it's a it's it's 730 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: more of a and I guess people who who who 731 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: work for the nobility, you know, brought those skills and 732 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: brought dogs with them in many cases, and so you know, 733 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,120 Speaker 1: these breefs developed. But you know, bear hunting early on 734 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:39,320 Speaker 1: in particular of course, hunting becomes important for subsistence bear Greece, 735 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,439 Speaker 1: and you know maybe a bear hide or something could 736 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: be good, but it's not exactly necessary for your subsistence. 737 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: But it's a communal activity. I mean traditionally the way 738 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: bears are hunted, you know, and again this is you know, 739 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,280 Speaker 1: you go back to the Cherokee and what these people 740 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: learned from the Cherokee. But again they're bringing something new 741 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,560 Speaker 1: to the equation, which is quit your hounds and so 742 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 1: but it's an important communal activity. And you and you go, 743 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: I mean even today, you know, you go, I mean, 744 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 1: it's like, um, it's generational. You know, you got the 745 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 1: the old guy, you know, who's been doing it for 746 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: years and has that that deep knowledge, and then the 747 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,359 Speaker 1: younger guys who can still run the mountains, and then 748 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: the kids. You know, you see, you know a lot 749 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,439 Speaker 1: of boys and you and you'll see girls these days, 750 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, out with these folks on a bear hunt. 751 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: Here is our secret topic. My curiosity pushed me to 752 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 1: ask Dr Pierce about the snake handling churches of Appalachia, 753 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: made famous by some recent television shows. Honestly, I'm hesitant 754 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,560 Speaker 1: to bring it up for fear that drawing attention to 755 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: this would paint an untrue picture of the vast majority 756 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 1: of Christians in southern Appalachia. But I decided to leave. 757 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,319 Speaker 1: In this portion of our interview, you'll have a greater 758 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 1: chance of being struck by life and then meeting someone 759 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,160 Speaker 1: who handles snakes for ceremony. It's extremely rare. I also 760 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,360 Speaker 1: want to say that I believe deeply in religious freedom. 761 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: So my intent is not to mar anyone's reputation or 762 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,400 Speaker 1: bring into question their motives, but purely to peer with 763 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:27,080 Speaker 1: a curious eye into the snake handling phenomena. Dr Pierce, 764 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,800 Speaker 1: you hear of these snake handling churches in the Appalachians, 765 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: and I know that there are churches that do that. 766 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: How common is that? Is that sensationalized and kind of 767 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 1: where did that start? Yeah, it is sensationalized, you know, 768 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: of course, you know, cables picked up. I think there 769 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: was a show called Snake Salvation or something like that 770 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: on some cable channel, you know, and if something. You know, 771 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,799 Speaker 1: it's kind of an interesting history in terms that grows 772 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: out of Cleveland, Tennessee area. And there's a guy that 773 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: area named George Hansley, who a lot of the start 774 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,360 Speaker 1: of this is credit to Who's Who's Who's kind of 775 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 1: alternately a preacher and Ah, I don't know rounder moonshine Er, 776 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 1: you know, depend you know, he pent and come back, 777 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,919 Speaker 1: but he you know, he takes Mark sixteen, I think 778 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 1: biblical passages. Yeah, and and it's really interesting someone who's 779 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: interested in religious history as well, but that someone didn't 780 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,920 Speaker 1: do this earlier, you know, did it totally have its 781 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,359 Speaker 1: roots here? Uh? I mean nowhere else in the world. 782 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: They were no, nothing, I know what And it's and 783 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,879 Speaker 1: it's the one it's the one scripture that says you'll 784 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: hand handle deadly serpents and will not be harmed. Essentially 785 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,959 Speaker 1: drink poison and stuff like. So you see this type 786 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: of thing and they'll drink strict nine in some of these. 787 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: So this is early twentieth century and it and it 788 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,800 Speaker 1: and it kind of becomes just for a variety of reasons, 789 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's you know, it's hard to 790 00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, why do people do things religiously? But I 791 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,319 Speaker 1: think you know, it does relate to you know, these 792 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:10,600 Speaker 1: are very rural churches, they're they're very poor congregations generally, 793 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: you know, partly it you know, it is something that 794 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,239 Speaker 1: gives that will definitely give you some distinction in your 795 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: community if you're willing to go a rattlesnake, you know, 796 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: and and and and hold it up and and one 797 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,760 Speaker 1: of the things. That's really and I've never actually witnessed 798 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: it in person. I know a number of people that have. 799 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,680 Speaker 1: And the thing that you know that even people I 800 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,400 Speaker 1: remember I had a Jewish friend in graduate school and 801 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:38,759 Speaker 1: she actually saw this and uh, and her reaction was 802 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: just like, you know, I just can't believe the faith. 803 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,960 Speaker 1: And actually there have been several accounts of scholars or 804 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: reporters or people who have been covering this and they 805 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: get kind of sucked into it themselves. It's kind of weird. 806 00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: They're a very famous book called Salvation on Sand Mountain 807 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: and got named Dennis Covington, who was a reporter from 808 00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,279 Speaker 1: the New York Times. He ends up handling snakes, you know, 809 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: and it's it's it's kind of a seduction and something again, 810 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,800 Speaker 1: it's it's relatively small. You did have a period in 811 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,080 Speaker 1: the like late twenties, uh and into the nineteen thirties 812 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: where I mean you have big outdoor meetings, you know, 813 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:15,960 Speaker 1: with hundreds, if not thousands of people, you know, in 814 00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 1: some parts of the region. And then the government started 815 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: cracking down because people were dying. Really, the government came 816 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,880 Speaker 1: in and said it is illegal in most states and 817 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,719 Speaker 1: maybe illegal everywhere. So to do this, and you know, 818 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: there's been a number of court cases, you know, like 819 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: endangering children and you know, things like this. But it's 820 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's small, and it's really small now, 821 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: but it still happens, you know, and you kind of 822 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of goes in waves. You it'll kind of pop up, 823 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:47,719 Speaker 1: you know, and you know, in a place and and 824 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,520 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you got uh this but uh, 825 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: you know, and of course you know, the stereotype is 826 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: every church in the region, you know, like okay, when 827 00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,800 Speaker 1: they're gonna pull out the snakes, you know, you know, 828 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a very small do you think And 829 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 1: and and I have a religious background for sure, it 830 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,440 Speaker 1: seems like maybe early on and and and I don't know, 831 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: I haven't seen these documentaries, these newer ones about snake. 832 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about it. I mean, perhaps 833 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: maybe there was some genuineness inside of it maybe at 834 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: one time. And then at least what I see portrayed 835 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,920 Speaker 1: feels like some of the newer stuff is kind of sensationalism, 836 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,520 Speaker 1: like like purposeful sensationalism. And I'm I'm putting judgment on 837 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,719 Speaker 1: people and things I don't I don't know about, But 838 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that would be And I 839 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,600 Speaker 1: think partly, you know, the conditions that made it meaningful 840 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,440 Speaker 1: to people are not as calm and so yeah, and 841 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: it is a way, you know, if you want to 842 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,239 Speaker 1: try to tention to yourself, it's definitely a way to 843 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,040 Speaker 1: do it. And they're always you know, some documentary and 844 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: it wants com film, your reporter that wants to do 845 00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: a story audit, you know, and uh and particularly when 846 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:03,600 Speaker 1: you know when somebody dies, you know, and you know, 847 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 1: you know they're cost to being involved. Because most of 848 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,839 Speaker 1: the famous people ended up dying from snake even though 849 00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,320 Speaker 1: they may have been bit like George Hansley eventually dies 850 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,760 Speaker 1: from snake, but even though he had been bit dozens 851 00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,440 Speaker 1: if not more at times. How does that fit with 852 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,719 Speaker 1: what with all that you know of Appalachian culture? Does 853 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: that just like fit in or is that just such 854 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,560 Speaker 1: a small minor thing that it's kind of irrelevant? Is that? 855 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,279 Speaker 1: Is that a fair question? Yeah? I think there are 856 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:39,279 Speaker 1: some things. Again, you know, the appeal, as you might think, 857 00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, is limited to a certain uh, I don't know, 858 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: so I guess a certain personality or or something. But 859 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,160 Speaker 1: I think there are some things in the region that 860 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:53,040 Speaker 1: to kind of lend itself to that, and you know 861 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: part of it, you know, there's a strong dose and 862 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,919 Speaker 1: a lot of sudden appleachician religion, fatalism that that play 863 00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,840 Speaker 1: into that. There's uh, you know, part of something that 864 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: if you're in really bad circumstances, um like my my 865 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:12,640 Speaker 1: life is pretty confining and drab and tragic in some ways. 866 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: But here is a way that I can transcend all that. 867 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to imagine what the you know, 868 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: most people can imagine, and I don't think you know, 869 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: but but but what the emotions of that would be, 870 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 1: you know, it would be a powerful thing. And so 871 00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: I think the material conditions of the region due you know, 872 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,360 Speaker 1: dead at least, you know, I think, uh feed into that. 873 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,920 Speaker 1: Appalachia is a fascinating and beautiful place with a diverse 874 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 1: mix of incredible people and families that have been crafted 875 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: by complicated history. There are people with a journey tied 876 00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:01,440 Speaker 1: close to the land. Honestly, every place on Earth has 877 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 1: such a story, and they're all important stories. I find 878 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,360 Speaker 1: myself often rooting for the underdog, for the piece of 879 00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,000 Speaker 1: the story that's untold, or for the people who are misunderstood, 880 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:17,080 Speaker 1: or the people whose story isn't always told correctly. I 881 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,200 Speaker 1: can't tell all those stories, but maybe the ones I 882 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: do tell can spur us to dig deeper into the 883 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: stories of those all around us. I continue to stand 884 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,760 Speaker 1: on the premise that our appreciation of our own culture 885 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 1: makes us more likely to value the culture of another. 886 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,360 Speaker 1: In closing, I believe that an authentic connection to the 887 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,800 Speaker 1: land helps define part of our humanity, whether it be 888 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,480 Speaker 1: through bare hunting with hounds or farming tomatoes like Mr Roy, 889 00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,359 Speaker 1: or simply by going out a high where you live 890 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,440 Speaker 1: and taking a moment to be formally amazed at the 891 00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: architecture and complexity of a tree. How where you do it, 892 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: I hope it will cause you to ponder your own 893 00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:11,400 Speaker 1: significance on this planet. Long live the regional cultures of 894 00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:21,400 Speaker 1: this incredible place called planet Earth. Hey, please leave us 895 00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,560 Speaker 1: a big fat review on iTunes and tell all your 896 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:44,120 Speaker 1: pals about this here podcast. Thanks Emerald, damn mean money 897 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:54,760 Speaker 1: and my money, My money and risk any more. Weeks 898 00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:04,719 Speaker 1: and three Love he loveing Me, fell love with me 899 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:12,840 Speaker 1: to me fathers st be with and this blow and 900 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:23,000 Speaker 1: bus hear love game Man Love, game Man looks gamp daughter. 901 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:30,880 Speaker 1: Dear daughter, can't treat me, so leave here fther with Gambler. 902 00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:53,960 Speaker 1: Gambler go with him after in Cristo I Mane coming 903 00:56:54,120 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 1: up again, Make God folgain Got the Fold game, Got 904 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:10,600 Speaker 1: it for eight in health cards and round sawn from 905 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: the bottom of the things on shot, candurnow, shot can, 906 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 1: turn out, shot can, and cant the last game Games