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Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm Jessicasavetto,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the Devil.

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Speaker 1: The seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary explored the story

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Speaker 1: of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church in seven

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Speaker 1: M Films. Shin founded Chikina Church over two decades ago

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Speaker 1: before establishing seven M and is named in a civil

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Speaker 1: lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Kaliah Gray, former member of Chikina Church and

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Speaker 2: seven M Films.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Khalia. You know those billboards that you see on

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Speaker 1: every highway. Sometimes they're purple. In the past they've been yellow.

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Speaker 1: Commercials run and there's a beautiful dancer on that billboard.

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Speaker 1: She's in like the most perfect getay that you could

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Speaker 1: possibly imagine, and it reads shen Yn.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Well today we.

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Speaker 1: Are talking about this dance group an organization as a whole.

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Speaker 2: Well, Okay, I'm so excited to hear that you brought

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Speaker 2: this to the pod because I actually went on like

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Speaker 2: a mini deep dive of it like last year, and

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Speaker 2: it was so interesting to me because you know, this

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Speaker 2: is like more like closer to when oh, I'm not closer.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I had been out of Chicina for

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Speaker 2: some time, so I was really picking up on different

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Speaker 2: like high control groups and environments. And so I went

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Speaker 2: down this little rabbit hole on TikTok just looking at

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Speaker 2: like people talking and having their experience about Shan Yun.

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Speaker 2: But it stopped that day. So I'm excited to hear what.

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Speaker 1: Well I should know, I had no idea. So I

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Speaker 1: had seen the billboard and I've seen this these commercials,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, as someone that danced in high school

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Speaker 1: and grew up dancing, this is a group and you

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Speaker 1: can tell like they're not marking, they're going full out

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Speaker 1: every time they are in a rehearsal because it is

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Speaker 1: just solid those commercials. I'm like, man, So I just

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Speaker 1: had this appreciation that I was like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: it's weird that I've never seen this show. And as

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Speaker 1: I was talking to some of our other producers about it,

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Speaker 1: they were like, oh, wait a minute. And so this

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Speaker 1: is how this whole thing came about because I also

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Speaker 1: was unaware. I think it's important to add we aren't

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Speaker 1: an investigative podcast. This is not what we do. However,

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Speaker 1: we are expressing our thoughts and opinions on these particular

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Speaker 1: groups and sometimes in these cases, but in this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we are depending on a lot of the reporting from

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Speaker 1: Nicole Hung and Michael Rothfield at The New York Times

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Speaker 1: who continue to follow Shenyan, and we are using this

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Speaker 1: research to base our opinions about Shenyan. So want to

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Speaker 1: just preface this episode with that. So, Shenyan is a

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Speaker 1: performing arts company based in the US that tours all

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Speaker 1: over the world, comprised from multiple large performing groups, totally

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Speaker 1: about four hundred and eighty performers. The literal translation of

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Speaker 1: Shenyan is Divine Rhythm Arts True.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Divine Rhythm Arts true. Four hundred and eighty performers

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Speaker 2: is a lot. That is a lot of moving parts

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Speaker 2: and you.

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Speaker 1: Could see it, I mean even from the commercial, Like

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Speaker 1: I was like, that's a lot of dancers on a

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Speaker 1: stage at one time, and it's really impressive just from

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Speaker 1: a visual standpoint. Since neither of us have seen the performance,

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Speaker 1: although we've done a little research and deep diving on

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Speaker 1: our own, we thought it'd be great to bring in

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Speaker 1: someone who has so joining us are some friends from

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles we know who saw our performance during the

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three season. Jeremy and Kylie. Hi, Jeremy and Kylie,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Hey, Hi, So

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Speaker 1: what brought you guys to the show? What made you

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Speaker 1: want to go and see it?

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Speaker 3: So we had been seeing ads, obviously, just everywhere we

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Speaker 3: lived in LA and then we were living in New

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Speaker 3: York at the time, and there is equally as many ads,

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Speaker 3: like on the subway and billboards around town, and we

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Speaker 3: didn't talk about too much. But then for her birthday,

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Speaker 3: I just decided to get two tickets as a surprise.

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Speaker 4: Is sort of like almost a funny thing. I guess

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Speaker 4: what we're going to shen Yan of all things.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was just the sheer scale of

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Speaker 5: all the marketing of how it was like in every mall,

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Speaker 5: on every billboard.

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Speaker 6: It was so everywhere and you couldn't escape it.

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Speaker 5: And we kind of always had that question that I

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Speaker 5: think everybody has where it's like why does this dance

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Speaker 5: company have enough money to do this? But didn't interrogate

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Speaker 5: much further than that, and I think it we're.

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Speaker 6: Like, we have to find out what it is.

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Speaker 2: So when you guys went to the show, how were

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Speaker 2: the performances or like, what were some memorable moments from

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 5: I remember they were relying a lot on this like

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Speaker 5: digital wall behind that that I forget exactly what it was,

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Speaker 5: but they kept commenting on this like proprietary technology. Of

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Speaker 5: the dancers would like jump in and then graphics would

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Speaker 5: appear behind them.

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Speaker 6: It was like very cool. And the special effects were like.

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Speaker 3: So it looked like they were flying away, like they

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Speaker 3: would jump sort of behind this screen and then exactly

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Speaker 3: where they fell, like an animation of them would fly away.

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Speaker 2: Wow. So extremely high production.

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Speaker 4: High production.

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Speaker 3: I really liked the costumes, like there was obviously like

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Speaker 3: they would do all these different dances, like these two

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Speaker 3: people would come out and like intro a dance and

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Speaker 3: they'd give some like historical context to it and like

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Speaker 3: if there was a story attached to it, and then

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Speaker 3: there was like a whole new like color palette and costumes.

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Speaker 6: It was just like a big production.

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Speaker 5: Like every step of it they had like a red

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Speaker 5: carpet like leading into it with all of these like

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Speaker 5: different booths and stuff like. It really felt like an event,

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Speaker 5: like a big.

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Speaker 1: How long was the full length of the show, do

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Speaker 1: you remember.

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Speaker 4: Like hour and a half two hours?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 6: I think, Wow, yeah, two hours maybe with an intermission.

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Speaker 2: There was an intermission. Yeah, when you guys left the performance,

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Speaker 2: what were some of your main takeaways, like, did it

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Speaker 2: follow one big story? Were there any like general themes?

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Speaker 3: So during it, No, it's like we said, it's a

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Speaker 3: like piece by piece, like these two people come out

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Speaker 3: and they describe the dance and they do the dance,

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Speaker 3: describe the dance and the dance.

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Speaker 5: But they were I mean they were talking about things.

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Speaker 5: They were setting up like what felt like historical events.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't familiar with them, but I'm not like super

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Speaker 5: well versed in like Chinese history, so I couldn't tell

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Speaker 5: what was like a creed upon fact and what was

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Speaker 5: like here's this like narrative that we're telling. And so

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Speaker 5: we didn't know fully what was going on behind the scenes,

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Speaker 5: but there was a sense in the show that they

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Speaker 5: were trying to convince us of something.

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Speaker 3: Well, there was that last so it was all pretty normal,

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Speaker 3: and then the last dance was the really it was

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Speaker 3: the last one, Yeah, where they did like a sort

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Speaker 3: of like a movement piece about everyone being on their

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Speaker 3: phones all the time and then like a bunch of

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Speaker 3: people get raptured. It was like a very like nothing

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Speaker 3: was that literal, but it was a very confusing religious turn.

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Speaker 5: Everything else was like in these sort of like medieval

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Speaker 5: or like kind of like old traditional seamen costumes. And

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Speaker 5: then at the very last scene, it's like phones and

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Speaker 5: T shirts in a way that like felt very different,

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Speaker 5: and we're like, what's that about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what made you go home and look up the show?

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Speaker 2: Was it just like oh, we wanted to know a

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Speaker 2: little more, or.

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Speaker 4: That last dance was weird for us.

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Speaker 3: And then right before we had gone, we were at

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Speaker 3: the park with some friends and we said, oh, we're

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Speaker 3: going to you tonight and they were like, oh, I've

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Speaker 3: heard weird things about them and there, and we were like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we truly didn't know. We're like what and like I

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Speaker 3: don't really know either. I've just heard weird things like

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Speaker 3: they have like a commune or it's kind of cult. See,

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Speaker 3: I don't really know. And then so we watched it

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Speaker 3: and they were like, Okay, let's let's look.

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Speaker 4: It up and see what.

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Speaker 5: They were definitely picking up Colt vibes for sure, like

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Speaker 5: behind the.

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Speaker 6: Dances and everything.

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Speaker 3: So on the train home, we just went through the

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Speaker 3: whole Wikipedia and we're like it was yeah, shocking.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I'm curious if you don't mind me asking, like

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Speaker 1: what what are the tickets ranged from? Like what is

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Speaker 1: the price? And like was there a large audience or

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Speaker 1: what was the theater?

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Speaker 4: Like it was pretty it was like a big I mean,

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Speaker 4: how many seats would have been there? Like five five hundred?

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Speaker 4: Was it somewhere five hundred?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah not probably not a thousand, but like five

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Speaker 3: hundred to seven hundred, like and a full theater and

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Speaker 3: the tickets we were pretty much in like the back

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Speaker 3: back and it was like I think one hundred and

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Speaker 3: twenty bucks like a ticket or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Wow, maybe less.

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Speaker 4: But around there I definitely was like shelling out for

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Speaker 4: shen Yan.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So I could only imagine that the tickets closer

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Speaker 1: to the front were far more expensive. Of course, people,

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Speaker 1: it makes the bad bunny ticket I just bought not

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Speaker 1: seem so bad. So yeah, not in the nosebleede.

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Speaker 2: So I'll take it. I'll take it. So, after you

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Speaker 2: went home and did research and heard the stories from

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Speaker 2: your friends of the park, like I've heard some things

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Speaker 2: about them, did change your thoughts on the show and

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Speaker 2: your original takeaways from it?

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Speaker 5: It definitely made the show make more sense. Love it,

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Speaker 5: but the storyline was like a little confusing, and it

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Speaker 5: felt very rigid and formal in a lot of places,

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Speaker 5: and then learning that like, oh, okay, it's because you're

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Speaker 5: trying to like sell me on this idea or philosophy.

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Speaker 5: It all clicked into places like, okay, this is a

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Speaker 5: little bit propaganda, but it's.

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Speaker 6: Kind of fun.

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Speaker 3: And just the vibe around all the dancers, it had

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Speaker 3: more of like a sinister vibe. It just it just

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Speaker 3: all made it in retrospect little more bizarre. It was

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Speaker 3: just like what all experienced people that we were, like,

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Speaker 3: we all just sat down and watched this. It was

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Speaker 3: a very weird thing to like reflect on.

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Speaker 1: So interesting, and I think that if that was your

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Speaker 1: vibe and coming out of that performance, that you felt

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Speaker 1: all of those things. I'm just curious of how many

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Speaker 1: other peop people I have seen the show and we're like, hmm,

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Speaker 1: what did I just watch here? And how many people

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Speaker 1: have gone to Google after because it sounds like it

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Speaker 1: was a pretty traditional like story, but then with these

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Speaker 1: like twist and turns. I hate to say it, but

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Speaker 1: it still makes me want to go watch it now

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Speaker 1: because I'm like, wait, now, I want to see it.

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Speaker 4: It's an interesting thing to examine and study.

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Speaker 6: For sure, it's a fascinating show for what it's worth.

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Speaker 3: Two, in terms of who's googling, we were definitely probably

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Speaker 3: the youngest people there. It was definitely an older crowd

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Speaker 3: that came through, some kids too, but I think we

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Speaker 3: were on the younger end of the spectrum there.

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Speaker 1: So fascinating and interesting, and thank you both for sharing

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Speaker 1: your experience at Shenyen.

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Speaker 2: I was really curious because I never even really saw commercials.

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Speaker 2: I saw billboards and then people like talking about Shenyuen

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Speaker 2: and a little bit of the backstory behind it. But

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Speaker 2: I don't even remember too much now, so I feel

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Speaker 2: like if I was one of your friends in the

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Speaker 2: park when I hear Sheinyan, I'm like, I don't quite

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Speaker 2: remember what it was, but it was definitely some weird

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Speaker 2: cult tish propa Yanda vibe. But yeah, thank you guys

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Speaker 2: so much for coming on and sharing your experience.

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Speaker 4: Of course, thanks, thank you.

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Speaker 2: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be

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Speaker 2: right back.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

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Speaker 1: back to our conversation, Okay, so we're going to dive

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Speaker 1: into this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay.

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Speaker 1: So there's a whole history of China that is relevant here,

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Speaker 1: and since we don't have hours and hours, we're going

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Speaker 1: to just dip our toe into what matters for Shinyan

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Speaker 1: and the allegations against them. If you want an analysis

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Speaker 1: of communist China, I am sure there's a podcast out

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Speaker 1: there for you all. I will warn you right now

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Speaker 1: this will not be the one. So Shinyen was created

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Speaker 1: to promote Falloon Gong.

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Speaker 2: What's Fellon Gong?

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you asked, Kalia, do you have

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Speaker 1: two hours?

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Speaker 2: Just kidding? Here's the brief.

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Speaker 1: Fall and Gong is a minority religious group in China

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Speaker 1: founded by the leader Li hong Zi. Lee prescribed certain

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Speaker 1: body exercises that were intended to focus energy and took

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Speaker 1: his lectures internationally. The tenets of Fallan Goong are truth, compassion,

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Speaker 1: and tolerance.

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Speaker 2: This sounds good. Truth, compassion, tolerance, movement, body movement very important.

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Speaker 1: Well. He also said that if people really believed in

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Speaker 1: his teachings, they'd be able to rid illness from their

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Speaker 1: bodies without medical treatment. Oh we've heard this one before,

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Speaker 1: red flag, red Flag, but a huge part of this

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Speaker 1: was that Fallan Gong was really organized and organized against

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party, and this unsettled a pretty controlling government.

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Speaker 1: After a Fallan Gong rally in April nineteen ninety nine

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Speaker 1: up set the Chinese government, authorities banned Fallan Gong and

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Speaker 1: issued an arrest warrant for mister Lee. Falan Gong's members

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Speaker 1: were sentenced to prison or labor camps. Chinese officials deny

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Speaker 1: allegations of torturing fall Gong's members. However, Fallan Gong asserts

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Speaker 1: that its followers were subject to programs by the Chinese

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Speaker 1: government to harvest their organs while they were in prison.

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Speaker 2: Harvest their organs? Yes, okay, how does this get How

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Speaker 2: does this connect with progress?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Exactly. So back to how we get to Shenyan. So

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Speaker 1: mister Lee, Fallan Gong's leader, had already moved to the US.

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Speaker 1: So in two thousand and six, a group of Fallan

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Speaker 1: Gong ex practitioners founded Shenyan in New York, and mister

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Speaker 1: Lee was a part of this group and he had

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Speaker 1: other accomplices. Made Shenyan with the mission to quote revive

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Speaker 1: traditional culture that had been destroyed after communists takeover in

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Speaker 1: China and they started touring in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: which gets us to those billboards.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so people who used to be part of the

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Speaker 2: Foulongong group came to the United States and founded Shenyan,

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Speaker 2: the touring dancing Company in New York.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so let's talk the marketing approach and why we

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Speaker 1: see ads and hear about Shenyan so frequently. Allegedly reporters

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Speaker 1: have been given free tickets to shows to offer up

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Speaker 1: reviews of the performances. Not uncommon, that seems pretty standard.

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Speaker 1: The Epoch Times published seventeen thousand articles about Shenyan since

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine. Note this is two years after

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Speaker 1: they premiere. That's a lot of damn articles.

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Speaker 2: So many articles.

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Speaker 1: At one point they are putting out an article a

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Speaker 1: day talking about Shenyan.

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Speaker 2: So what is the Epoch Times.

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Speaker 1: The Epoch Times has long been known to have ties

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Speaker 1: to wait for it, Fallan Goong ohm hm. So it

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Speaker 1: rose to national prominence after twenty sixteen by promoting right

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Speaker 1: wing conspiracy theories and the policies of good old Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Oh the pipeline. Okay, the pipeline.

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Speaker 1: So again, They've been around for a long time, but

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Speaker 1: they rose to national prominence in twenty sixteen promoting right

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Speaker 1: wing conspiracies. You can start to see where this is going.

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Speaker 1: So Leep has urged followers to persuade people to see

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Speaker 1: Shinyan showns, which he says can spread fallon Gong's message

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Speaker 1: and save audiences from a coming apocalypse. So again, when

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Speaker 1: we were talking about all of them ripping pages from

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Speaker 1: the same book, it's like, hey, come here, follow us.

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Speaker 1: If you watch this, if you see the content that

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Speaker 1: we're putting out, you're saving people by performing and spreading

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Speaker 1: the word, and this case, saving them from a coming apocalypse.

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Speaker 2: I see it really often in of these saw it

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Speaker 2: in Chicina, definitely talked about rapture. So part of Falong

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Speaker 2: Gong's philosophy is that there is a coming apocalypse that

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Speaker 2: people have to prepare for. So this is why they're

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Speaker 2: putting on these big performances. Just read that message. Yes, okay.

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Speaker 1: And again kind of all of this coming about was

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Speaker 1: because driving around to La right now, there are billboards galore.

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Speaker 1: They are everywhere. They are promoting the big start of

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Speaker 1: the show, which I think is premiering later this week.

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Speaker 1: There's four hundred and eighty performers. There is two hundred

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Speaker 1: cities this year, so that is getting kind of spread

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Speaker 1: out by eight troops. So there's eight troops part of Shenyen.

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Speaker 1: That's still so much like for eight troops, that's so

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Speaker 1: many cities, Like, that's a lot. So already I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that is a workload. That's kind of the marketing of

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Speaker 1: it all and how we will start to see this

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Speaker 1: a whole lot. Yes, putting it on listeners radar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've definitely seen the billboards and like the newspaper.

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Speaker 2: I was, like you said, the marketing really is everywhere.

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Speaker 2: There's brochures and a lot of like the markets, like

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Speaker 2: especially the Asian markets that I go to for all

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Speaker 2: of my Filipino food, but i'd see the big stacks

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Speaker 2: of Shenyen brochures. It's really everywhere, and so I'm really curious.

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Speaker 2: There's no where the cult allegations start to come up

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Speaker 2: with this totally.

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Speaker 1: So there are criminal investigations which are being overseen by

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Speaker 1: the US Department of Homeland Security and the State Department.

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Speaker 2: So oh, so they have open investigations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are also investigations on labor violations and New

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Speaker 1: York regulators have begun to inquire whether the group has

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Speaker 1: complied with state labor laws. There is a sixty eight

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Speaker 1: page lawsuit in New York brought about by Chang Chun Co,

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Speaker 1: who used to be a dancer, and she described shen

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Speaker 1: Yan as quote, a forced labor enterprise and points to

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Speaker 1: exploiting underage dancers and the use of threat in public

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Speaker 1: shaming while they make millions of dollars.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm getting flashbacks to like the seventy videos

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Speaker 2: a day in China. Oh yeah, it's just so sad

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Speaker 2: how it's like being quoted as saying a forced labor enterprise.

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Speaker 2: That is just really really disheartening. And I know how

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Speaker 2: hard dancers work for especially hearing how it's like such

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Speaker 2: a high production show and where I'm sure it's very

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Speaker 2: like intense on the body, very hard on the body

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Speaker 2: for these dancers, And like hearing that they're doing so

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Speaker 2: many shows tonight, I'm like, that sounds like they don't

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Speaker 2: have enough time for recovery. That sounds like, you know,

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Speaker 2: and hearing underage dancers as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, no, but honestly, seeing that many dancers on the

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Speaker 1: stage which we referenced earlier, and that clean of a performance.

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Speaker 1: And again I'm referencing this just based on the commercial alone,

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Speaker 1: like as dancers and being around dancers, like we know

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Speaker 1: that is not easy to do, and so that already

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Speaker 1: like is making things pretty clear. But also just have

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Speaker 1: to shout out Chang because I can only imagine with

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Speaker 1: even just what we have touched on, this is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a scary group to go after. So Yes,

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Speaker 1: interested to kind of follow that story and see more

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Speaker 1: about where that goes when we return the conclusion of

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Speaker 1: our conversation. This is forgive me for I have followed.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here

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Speaker 2: is the conclusion of our conversation.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the following info came from the New

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Speaker 1: York Times investigation, as we mentioned earlier, led by Nicole

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Speaker 1: Hong and Michael Rothfield, and their interviewing of twenty five

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Speaker 1: former Shinyin performers to talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: labor issues in Shinyin's practices, one of which being dating

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Speaker 1: is required to be.

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Speaker 2: Approved by leadership, another red flag.

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Speaker 1: Another red flag, Yes, and men and women were even

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Speaker 1: discouraged from talking to each other. Dancers were occasionally discouraged

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Speaker 1: from seeking medical care that is not good at all,

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Speaker 1: not good at all. We also have heard stories from

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Speaker 1: people in Chicaina as well that had Again we go

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Speaker 1: back to the few episodes ago of all the red

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Speaker 1: flags and signs of what you could see. In one

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Speaker 1: of the New York Times investigations, a former dancer described

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Speaker 1: a story of a performer getting an injury before a performance,

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Speaker 1: saying she dislocated her knee clap and a classmate popped

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Speaker 1: it back into place, and then she was given a

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Speaker 1: bag of ice, asked if she could perform, and performed

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Speaker 1: with the injury for the next two hours. In high school,

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Speaker 1: my best friend at the time had dislocated her knee

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Speaker 1: and dance class and the scream that came out of

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Speaker 1: her body and the way that she collapsed to the ground,

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Speaker 1: I will never forget. And she was put in just

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Speaker 1: for the scale. It was popped back into place, and

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Speaker 1: even then the pain that she was enduring, she was

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Speaker 1: in an ambulance and taken to the hospital. Like that

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Speaker 1: is the scale of what we're talking about. Like that

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Speaker 1: is not just like a bounce right back, wrap.

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Speaker 2: It up and get back on stage. No, No, it's.

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Speaker 1: Not like a blister, which is also very painful. But yes,

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Speaker 1: So they were limited in the books they could read,

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Speaker 1: the music they could listen to, and the news outlets

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Speaker 1: they could access.

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Speaker 2: Oh now we're starting to get into the media suppression. Okay, okay.

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Speaker 1: They also needed special permission to leave the training compound

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Speaker 1: in upstate New York.

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Speaker 2: Oh so there's a training compound. Mm hmmm, Oh no, okay.

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Speaker 1: They were also subjected to regular weigh ins, and instructors

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Speaker 1: could yell at them in front of others for gaining

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Speaker 1: weight or being over a certain weight.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay.

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Speaker 1: This culture was also pervasive in classes, and one dancer

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Speaker 1: said that in her classroom, everyone's weight in her troop

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Speaker 1: was posted in the classroom and people's names were highlighted

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Speaker 1: if people believed they weigh too much.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so traumatizing.

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Speaker 1: But the messaging from leaders, according to this investigation, was

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Speaker 1: that performing with shinyin is for the betterment of audiences,

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Speaker 1: and if dancers messed up or failed to perform at

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Speaker 1: a certain level, they would interfere with the audience receiving

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Speaker 1: that betterment. So that's a lot of pressure also to

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Speaker 1: put on the dancers that you are responsible for, say

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Speaker 1: in Kylie and Jeremy situation. Five hundred people in that audience,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of like that emotional and mental toll

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Speaker 1: that would feel a little overwhelming in my sense. Now,

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Speaker 1: if people violated the rules, they could face public shaming

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Speaker 1: during group critique sessions.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that sounds like Michelle Lonsdale Smith, who we spoke

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Speaker 2: about a few episodes ago. That's from those allegations. It's

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Speaker 2: always like the rebukes and the public critiques and that

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Speaker 2: being used as a tool and a tactic totally.

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Speaker 1: Now, I say all this just as a reminder that

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Speaker 1: this is just a small snippet of what's out there

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Speaker 1: on Shinyin.

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Speaker 2: And that is a lot right there. I'm really glad

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Speaker 2: that there is currently an open investigation on this because

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Speaker 2: it sounds like there are some things that need to

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Speaker 2: be looked into.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, I think honestly, like when we talk about what

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Speaker 1: makes it cult like and what are those allegations as

440
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: we're going through this, I'm like, man, they're all the same.

441
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: And I really do think that we need to figure

442
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: out a better way to hold these types of groups

443
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: accountable in the eyes of the law, because it is

444
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: pretty clear right to us where we've been talking about

445
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: this for a while.

446
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 2: It's so sad how many stories we hear of people

447
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: like using these tactics to bring people into their group

448
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 2: and their environment. Hopefully things do change one day, because

449
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: like you said, with Shan Yuan, they're touring to two

450
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: hundred cities this year and or they're to premiere in

451
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 2: La this week.

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00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: I believe it's this weekend.

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00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: Oh wow. And it's just like you said, this is

454
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: a small snippet, but it is out there. I know

455
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: there are people who talk about it, not as in

456
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: depth as here, So I'm I really appreciate you bringing

457
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 2: this to me as it's coming back around and for

458
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: me to hear more of like the allegations and the

459
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 2: thought process, the origins.

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00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think I just want to reiterate I

461
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: guess that there is a whole history of Chinese government

462
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: and politics here and that one we don't have the

463
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: time but quite frankly, like I'm not qualified to speak about.

464
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: And it's part of the current controversy around Shin. And

465
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: it's reported that the Chinese government is still targeting Fallan

466
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: Gong practitioners and there has been cases in the last

467
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: few years of Chinese intelligence surveillancing Fallan Gong followers or

468
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: trying to get information about followers in the Chinese government

469
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: has tried to stop Sheenyan performances. So this is a big,

470
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 1: big story.

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00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: It's so crazy to me that they've come here to

472
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: the States and this is where they're hiding, I guess

473
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: from the Chinese government, like you know, where it originally started.

474
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: So I'm like the fact that this has been allowed

475
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 2: to go on here in the United States when there's

476
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: you know, more things that have come out about it.

477
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: I guess in recent years. Every year that they do this,

478
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 2: I feel like someone talks about it. So I don't know,

479
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,359
Speaker 2: I'm interested to see where it goes.

480
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I just have with the dancers

481
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, like this was started in New

482
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: York Shan Yun, So yes, the dancers may be Chinese

483
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 1: or of Asian descent for the most part, but it's

484
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: uncertain of where they're from, Like are they American like

485
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: Chinese American dancers. That kind of starts to create that

486
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: conversation with the connection with other entertainment. High controlled groups

487
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: like these are people that are just trying to make

488
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: their art and have the opportunity to do so, and

489
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: here comes the control of some charismatic leader to exploit

490
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: and take advantage of their talents. And that is frustrating

491
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: and it's heartbreaking, and I think it's something that I

492
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: want to continue talking about to raise awareness to as

493
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: someone that just loves the art form and loves all

494
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: different kinds of entertainment art forms. But stop doing it, people,

495
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: Stop taking advantage of these really talented people. Pay dancers

496
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: what they deserve for bringing excellence to your shows and

497
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 1: like a different level of entertainment.

498
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: And also just being treated with basic respect and a

499
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: not toxic workplace and the culture surrounding it. And you know,

500
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: like you said, it's so sad when art is being

501
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: used as a way to spread someone's like personal propaganda,

502
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: their belief system that may be really controversial, and utilizing

503
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 2: their belief system as a way to justify what they

504
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 2: are doing like this is for the betterment of others.

505
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: I think I am interested to look more into the

506
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: New York Times investigation because we talked about Chang Chun

507
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: Co that was named in the lawsuit, But knowing that

508
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,120
Speaker 1: there's twenty five other former dancers that have come forward,

509
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, always shout out to those victims that are

510
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: using their voice and speaking out against wrongdoers.

511
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: Big deeps to them, absolutely, and we'd also definitely want

512
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: to thank Kylie and Jeremy for coming on to share

513
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: their experiences when they want to go see the Shen

514
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: Yuen show. Absolutely. I think also just as testament to

515
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 2: how like grand of a performance this is so as

516
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: we're describing, like yeah, it's this dance troupe, but it's

517
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 2: like a hundreds of people doing this performance, how intense

518
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: it is. So I just wanted to thank them again

519
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: for coming on and sharing.

520
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: If any of our listeners want more more on Shin Yun,

521
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: let us know. You can email us at forgive mepod

522
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com and we'd love to hear your thoughts.

523
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 1: I know we both are fascinated and leaning in and curious,

524
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: but ultimately we'd love to know what you guys think.

525
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for tuning in. We will

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00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: see you next week.

527
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: See you next week.

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00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: Forgive me for I have followed as a production from Wvsound,

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00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's Michael Tore podcast Network, hosted by

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00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 2: me Kalia Gray and me Jess Cosovetto Forgive Me For

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00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 2: I Have Followed is produced by Aaron Burlson and Sophie

532
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: Spencer Zavos.

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00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Kalia Gray, myself, Walmer Balderama, Leo

534
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: Klem and Aaron Burlison at Wvsound.

535
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

536
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 2: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

537
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio apps, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

538
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows. See you next week,

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00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: See you next week,