Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central.
Speaker 2: My guest tonight is a former failed correspondent at the
Speaker 2: Daily Show. He's done nothing since then. Please welcome mister
Speaker 2: John Oliver.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 4: We get it enough for ready enough.
Speaker 1: I agree with you more than I agree with them.
Speaker 4: Well, well, well of course come crawling back. Yes I started.
Speaker 1: I know. It's pretty weird to be back. I do
Speaker 1: not like being in that guest room at all.
Speaker 4: All.
Speaker 1: That was the one room where I worked here. You
Speaker 1: were not allowed to go in, and I don't like
Speaker 1: being in it now. It feels like I'm doing something
Speaker 1: wrong by being inside.
Speaker 4: You never you never stuck in to see your guests.
Speaker 4: No no, no, no no no no no.
Speaker 1: And we were we were never allowed to really be
Speaker 1: in there because it had to be kept nice for
Speaker 1: the guests. And it never really occurred to me one
Speaker 1: day I might be that, and I still don't feel
Speaker 1: so I put my bag in there and then stood
Speaker 1: in the corridor for the rest. I don't want to
Speaker 1: be in there at all.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this person pretty much my memories. You were here,
Speaker 4: you were in this building.
Speaker 1: I was very much in this building. I was this
Speaker 1: was this was the reason I came to America and
Speaker 1: I was here for eight years.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Same, that's why. That's why I was so.
Speaker 2: Happy you came on because we people don't know by
Speaker 2: look at us, but we actually have very similar backgrounds
Speaker 2: because we both joined the show. I moved to America
Speaker 2: to do the show, just like you. And when I
Speaker 2: first joined the show, you know, the Daily Show alumni
Speaker 2: network is so strong. I asked to meet up with
Speaker 2: mister Oliver. Yeah, and I thought mister Oliver, and I
Speaker 2: think he was mister Oliver. I was like, there's no
Speaker 2: way this guy's going to let me meet up with him.
Speaker 4: And you were like, no, come, come before work.
Speaker 1: There's nothing There's nothing I like more than talking to
Speaker 1: people who have questions about how to make field peace
Speaker 1: because it's the that it's such a narrow set of
Speaker 1: skills and all you had, all of your questions were great.
Speaker 1: That was I remember you leaving and thinking, oh, you're
Speaker 1: going to be fine even though you don't have the
Speaker 1: answers yet, all your questions are right, so you're going
Speaker 1: to be fine. You do not have a problem, I
Speaker 1: will say before before we make it too sincere you
Speaker 1: do have that unique skill set of not minding being
Speaker 1: a dick to people. That really at the end of
Speaker 1: that is the secret source.
Speaker 2: Well, that's that is the I mean, you know, you
Speaker 2: have to really not care to do satire. Sometimes everyone's
Speaker 2: like people, I don't even people know how much you
Speaker 2: don't give off.
Speaker 4: Yes, you truly don't give off in.
Speaker 1: The marrow of my bones. Sometimes when our lawyers say
Speaker 1: they're going to be upset, you go, I'm not having
Speaker 1: a physical reaction to that at all. Yes, it's no
Speaker 1: concern to me whether the Sackle of family are mad
Speaker 1: with me. To be honest, I'm a little bit there's
Speaker 1: a tingle of happiness.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's kind of what you need. It's definitely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you like the feeling that I like the feeling
Speaker 1: of trouble.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In comedy it's good because I'm probably a natural coward
Speaker 1: in many ways. But when it comes to comedy, I
Speaker 1: do like the feeling of being in Yeah.
Speaker 2: You talked about you said pushing the button, said you
Speaker 2: just button.
Speaker 4: You just got to push it because I mean, you know.
Speaker 2: And and what was interesting was when I when I
Speaker 2: met with you this how much you don't give a
Speaker 2: You made me come to your office at eight am
Speaker 2: first of all, which is which is.
Speaker 4: Extremely early for comedians. Yeah, I wait, god, it is true.
Speaker 1: That's an amazing thing about doing Joe. When you get
Speaker 1: into comedy, it's not generally thinking that you will see
Speaker 1: a human beings breakfast time. No, but yeah, that's why
Speaker 1: you came. You came very early, look right, and early
Speaker 1: it showered.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I came here.
Speaker 2: I talked to her, and I have very specific questions.
Speaker 2: And one thing you told me. I've been using this in.
Speaker 4: My podcast rounds.
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's come back to you, but like, uh,
Speaker 2: when you told me it took you two years to
Speaker 2: relearn how to do comedy in America.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably true.
Speaker 4: You want spot onto the day.
Speaker 2: By the way, I was in hindsight, I was sorry,
Speaker 2: oh my god, because I remember there was a day
Speaker 2: I was in New York City gig at some comedy club,
Speaker 2: and it was two years in literally almost to the day,
Speaker 2: and I remember things are trying to click a little
Speaker 2: bit of like relearning how to do comedy because again,
Speaker 2: like you, like me, we were doing comedy outside of
Speaker 2: America before we even came here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I think the outside the perspective in
Speaker 1: comedy always works. The thing with being an immigrant here
Speaker 1: is you kind of have to learn the exact ways
Speaker 1: that your outsider perspective can translate. So you kind of
Speaker 1: have to learn basically how that can work, and once
Speaker 1: it does, you're fine. But until that point it does
Speaker 1: feel a little bit like on Charted Waters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a bit like, you know, you can come
Speaker 2: here and you can joke about America on a very
Speaker 2: surface level, and you can, you can, and that would
Speaker 2: do well for you, for you know, if you have
Speaker 2: a fifteen minute set, maybe thirty minute set. But I
Speaker 2: feel like after nine months or a year in America,
Speaker 2: the audience can kind of smell the bullshit of like
Speaker 2: of like you've been here long enough, right, Like guns
Speaker 2: should be weird, That's right? So really when that the
Speaker 2: how profound your two year thing was, Like it takes
Speaker 2: two years to learn the nuances of America so you
Speaker 2: can make fun of them in ways which yes, exactly,
Speaker 2: they appreciate exactly, Like, don't tell us we have guns.
Speaker 4: We know we have guns.
Speaker 1: Tell us something else we if we know nothing else
Speaker 1: about ourselves, is that we have guns. To a genuinely
Speaker 1: problematic extent, right, that is not a fresh insight. We
Speaker 1: genuinely know, yes, exactly, So.
Speaker 2: You are like going deeper and deeper and deeper into it,
Speaker 2: which you know that that was my guiding light as well.
Speaker 4: We're not first time. I'm so glad.
Speaker 1: My incredibly insightful advice of wait twenty four months.
Speaker 4: Was it was like a child, I still can't live.
Speaker 1: I just digged down and didn't want to hear from
Speaker 1: you again for two years.
Speaker 4: That's all it work.
Speaker 1: Come back, come back with the same question in two years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then we'll tell yeah.
Speaker 2: It's And I wonder, like, do you feel like satire
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three? Is that you know, you've been
Speaker 2: at the show, You've seen a daily show kind of
Speaker 2: evolve over a lot of time. Then when you joined
Speaker 2: a show, I don't there wasn't anyone else doing it
Speaker 2: kind of. There wasn't TikTok, it wasn't Instagram.
Speaker 1: Oh no, there wasn't those things.
Speaker 2: Right, So it wasn't a bunch of you know, like
Speaker 2: assholes on talking about you know, like trying to do
Speaker 2: sat tire it up all the time, and and so
Speaker 2: what sorry, now now I'm just attacking a bunch of people,
Speaker 2: and I think.
Speaker 1: You're now attacking the entire population of TikTok truck.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I got I'm hosting for one day, come
Speaker 2: at MEIK talk.
Speaker 4: I was just trying.
Speaker 1: But monogram shirt, if you're having monogram shirts, Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a very fancy shirt.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, this one is. I got this shirt
Speaker 2: made in New York City, Chinatown. And no, he's a
Speaker 2: he's a legit tailor. And then he asked me if
Speaker 2: I wanted my Chinese name embroidered on it, and I.
Speaker 4: Was like, go for it. And then now it just
Speaker 4: looks like a mustard steak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't look like my son, a little bit
Speaker 1: like bustle stylish must state.
Speaker 4: Yeah, did you guys get fancy suits when you know
Speaker 4: we got no suits?
Speaker 1: We got I cannot we We were not given any.
Speaker 1: I never owned a suit.
Speaker 4: This boomer coming on a daily shot telling us how
Speaker 4: good we have it.
Speaker 1: You have a desk, We got to buy cameras to
Speaker 1: go to go to a place to buy us and
Speaker 1: doing Philip is you wreck them all the time for
Speaker 1: years here we did. There's nothing that made ex correspondents
Speaker 1: more angry than hearing that we got free suits when
Speaker 1: we did, and yeah, that was the thing that bothered
Speaker 1: them the most. It was no, no, you should have
Speaker 1: to go into the hole every year just to get
Speaker 1: a presentable suits. Now look at you, spiffy.
Speaker 4: Did the show pay for that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Monographs? You get monogram shirts. Yeah, well you know how
Speaker 1: many central has changed. I know things are a little
Speaker 1: choppy here, but monogram shirts.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I told them their monogrammy they're racist.
Speaker 1: And then they're just, oh, that's a move that I
Speaker 1: can't make.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like that's the thing, Like we're both in
Speaker 2: immigrants in America and do you ever I guess my
Speaker 2: question to you is like, what how do you answer
Speaker 2: the people who are like, if you don't like it here,
Speaker 2: leave Yeah.
Speaker 4: I get that a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I guess it's a I mean it's
Speaker 1: a horrible point, but it's a fair question. I guess.
Speaker 1: Now my answer would be, I'm a citizen, you can't
Speaker 1: do that. But I mean the tricky thing is I
Speaker 1: felt ownership. It's very dangerous. A British person saying I
Speaker 1: felt ownership of this country historically, historically does not know, Well,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. I just went to India and I felt
Speaker 1: like I belonged, but I felt at home here long
Speaker 1: before my legal status was solid. That's the tricky thing
Speaker 1: as nemigrant. But the more I felt at home here,
Speaker 1: the more cognizant you are of the fact that it's
Speaker 1: not up to you whether or not you get to
Speaker 1: stay or not. So it was a massive relief to
Speaker 1: get my green card and an even bigger relief to
Speaker 1: get my citizenship. So yeah, despite the fact immigrants tend
Speaker 1: to talk shit, it's generally the kind of way that
Speaker 1: you talk ship with someone you genuinely love. Sure, as
Speaker 1: a comedian, I only really talk ship as a way
Speaker 1: of expressing life professionally, exactly, I don't really know how
Speaker 1: to express myself sincerely, right I like you, I'm never
Speaker 1: going to say that your show.
Speaker 2: That's about I was back on that other point, like,
Speaker 2: do you feel as a place for a satire, Like,
Speaker 2: basically the news is so crazy right now? Reality is
Speaker 2: sometimes matching up to the news sometimes in that environment,
Speaker 2: do you feel that satire is still possible? Like, you know,
Speaker 2: when you're doing a joke ironically, do you feel like
Speaker 2: people can get it that you're trying to ironically be
Speaker 2: the bad guy in some you.
Speaker 1: Know, oh, you mean, like if you're doing Phil because
Speaker 1: we used to play the bad guy in Phil Piece, right,
Speaker 1: you would say things you did not mean just to
Speaker 1: embody an argument that you do not agree with. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: in Field Pieces, that's the way that we would operate
Speaker 1: all the time. In general, I mean our shows a
Speaker 1: little different, like we're not in the and.
Speaker 4: That's not your show, but you figured it out. I'm
Speaker 4: talking about from me, Like.
Speaker 1: I think there's I think there will always be a
Speaker 1: place for satire. I mean there was a place for
Speaker 1: it in Germany in the thirties. It didn't seem to
Speaker 1: work out that well over there, but they gave it
Speaker 1: a go. So no, I think I think there will
Speaker 1: always be And I I'm like you, I'm happy for
Speaker 1: people online to try and do it as well. Ronnie
Speaker 1: really would nobody to.
Speaker 2: Have a volady all about earning your voice like me
Speaker 2: I did. I had to get on this show to
Speaker 2: get a voice. You don't get a voice just because
Speaker 2: in your underwear.
Speaker 1: On Instagram, Ronnie regrets that gatekeepers have been removed from
Speaker 1: the process. You really liked the gates.
Speaker 2: I love the gate Yet it was so tough to
Speaker 2: come here, you know, I was very tough for me
Speaker 2: to come here. I like you, I also really wanted
Speaker 2: to come here.
Speaker 1: That is the thing. I don't think Americans understand how
Speaker 1: rough the US immigration process is. When they say come
Speaker 1: to people, come in the right way. I don't think
Speaker 1: they realize how literally impossible that is in some in
Speaker 1: some aspects. When when I got my green card here,
Speaker 1: they brought it to me in my office upstairs, and
Speaker 1: they gave me a Budwiser and an apple pie with
Speaker 1: a little American flag in it. And I think they
Speaker 1: would give it as if like here's a joke, right, Oh,
Speaker 1: you got it and you're always going to get it.
Speaker 1: Here it is, And I nearly cried, And so for
Speaker 1: a British person, nearly crying is crying. That's just as
Speaker 1: I can come. But I was so relieved because I
Speaker 1: was worried about it so much. So I think you
Speaker 1: tend to find, like when we were talking before, exactly
Speaker 1: when when you find out someone just got their green card,
Speaker 1: you can kind of almost feel the relief coming off
Speaker 1: it because it's such a concern.
Speaker 4: It's not easy easy.
Speaker 2: The top of the green card, even the visa before
Speaker 2: the green car is incredible it's it's called the extraordinary
Speaker 2: ability visa. Yes, you have to prove all that you
Speaker 2: have extraordinarability, which I challenge anyone to do unless you're
Speaker 2: freaking an NBA player someone foot. And then second, boy,
Speaker 2: it's like if you don't constantly prove that you're they
Speaker 2: can deport you. Like if I have a bag segment
Speaker 2: on the Daily.
Speaker 1: Show, you do not demonstrate extraordinary ability. That was at
Speaker 1: medium level of ability. That is the worst thing about
Speaker 1: coming in on the visa is like occasionally they will
Speaker 1: look at the visa and say, what do you do
Speaker 1: because they're expecting a surgeon, someone with a marketable skill,
Speaker 1: And the moment you say comedian like, that's this is
Speaker 1: not for you, that's not And also then if it's old,
Speaker 1: go tell me something funny like or what is this
Speaker 1: a fun bitch? Or is this the moment I get deported?
Speaker 1: Do I need a joke? On handtop, it demonstrates extraordinary
Speaker 1: ability in terms of word craft. Yes, it's incredibly stressful
Speaker 1: in the way people don't understand.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's in a weird way.
Speaker 2: I'm with you in that in that like immigrants to
Speaker 2: America who come here actually want to be here. I
Speaker 2: have fought to be here, and we're the ones who
Speaker 2: get shit done here because we had to improve it
Speaker 2: every single time.
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, we get the job done. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would say, what is more quintessentially American than coming
Speaker 1: to a country you don't belong in and deciding you're
Speaker 1: going to stay Thanksgiving of all times?
Speaker 4: Yes? All right, so we get it.
Speaker 2: You. You know you every interview I've researched you on you,
Speaker 2: you've professional love for America.
Speaker 4: You're still here, clearly you still love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Okay, So can you shut the fuck up and be.
Speaker 2: American for one minute instead of constantly complaining and talking
Speaker 2: like a foreign all the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, I challenge you, how you challenge me to
Speaker 1: be American?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: I want you, want to want you to eat this
Speaker 2: hot dog right now, and then I want you to
Speaker 2: throw this football and foot of all, you have to
Speaker 2: call it a football.
Speaker 4: I can't do that.
Speaker 2: Ye call it an American football, Okay, American and American.
Speaker 4: You gonna throw this to me, You gonna eat that first,
Speaker 4: and you throw this to me?
Speaker 1: Okay like this, No, no, you gotta quaking, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go Okay.
Speaker 4: Eat this first. This is the way we're all. You
Speaker 4: are say, you are said, you are said, all.
Speaker 2: Right, and then you gotta come over here and you
Speaker 2: gotta say right here, all right, and you gotta throw
Speaker 2: a tight spiral.
Speaker 4: How can that be? All right?
Speaker 1: Okay, all right?
Speaker 4: Then we got drum roll, drum roll for you.
Speaker 1: Ready, all right, all right, you.
Speaker 4: Got this is last Week Tonight with John Oliver as
Speaker 4: wherever you'll find it, who gives a far will take her.
Speaker 1: That's how you throw to take a quick break.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back at the Thank you don't do it.
Speaker 3: My guest to day is an award wedding best selling
Speaker 3: author and illustrator whose picture book is called Big. Please
Speaker 3: welcome Vash the Harrison to sit down. Okay, hi, Hi,
Speaker 3: thank you for coming. Thanks for having me when it's
Speaker 3: steal your jacket. First of all, I love this book.
Speaker 3: I love, love love this book. Oh okay, cry. The
Speaker 3: illustration for this book are beautiful, and I was looking
Speaker 3: through it. It made they're very emotive and it actually
Speaker 3: made me think of looking at a memory. I think
Speaker 3: it's the best way to look at it, because, like
Speaker 3: in the book, there's no I like an illustration that
Speaker 3: there's on like lines Like usually when you see like
Speaker 3: a cartoon or an illustration, it's like, oh, this is
Speaker 3: a drawing, right, And I think the idea that it
Speaker 3: gave me was like always looking back, And so when
Speaker 3: you're doing a book like this, like what comes first?
Speaker 3: The drawings are.
Speaker 5: The text For me, it happens at the same time.
Speaker 5: But drawing is always where I get my ideas. But
Speaker 5: what you're picking up on is something that I absolutely
Speaker 5: put into the book. I wanted it to feel soft,
Speaker 5: wanted it to feel really internal. So I hope that
Speaker 5: that comes through for everybody.
Speaker 3: That's exactly what I thought. Because we're like, well, it's beautiful,
Speaker 3: and I was like, no, this looks like because it's
Speaker 3: like the like, this is the first book that you've
Speaker 3: written and illustrated. And was it scary to do both
Speaker 3: of those? Yeah?
Speaker 5: Absolutely. So I've written nonfiction before, and so I can
Speaker 5: feel really excited and proud to share the stories of
Speaker 5: other people, especially incredible people from history. But to share
Speaker 5: something about my life that came from, you know, something
Speaker 5: really internal and to put that all on the page
Speaker 5: is terrifying. It's scary to write things and share them
Speaker 5: with people. But that's the process of making art.
Speaker 3: Don't understand up corow. So it's like, oh, I hope
Speaker 3: these words I say people like them. Cause it's like
Speaker 3: as a comic, the first time you go on stage
Speaker 3: with a joke, it's like for information, like I need
Speaker 3: to know if this is funny or not. And then
Speaker 3: every time you do the joke it's for confirmation, so like,
Speaker 3: I know the joke is funny, I just need you
Speaker 3: to catch up to where I am. Like, I know
Speaker 3: I'm doing But the first of the couple of times,
Speaker 3: you're like, hey man, I don't know if I said
Speaker 3: these words right. I don't know if they're gonna like
Speaker 3: the words in this order, And then you got to
Speaker 3: figure out and sometimes it's like it's just don't work.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Doing events for kids is the sort of like the
Speaker 5: same thing. I feel like I'm doing stand up waiting
Speaker 5: for their jokes, waiting for them to connect with the story,
Speaker 5: and if they don't like it, then I haven't done
Speaker 5: my job correctly.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I used to do kids birthday parties. I've
Speaker 3: had a lot of jobs. Every time I'm in the office,
Speaker 3: they're like you used to work where I'm like, hey man,
Speaker 3: don't worry about that. You asked them too many questions.
Speaker 3: But making stuff for kids is hard because you have
Speaker 3: to keep their you have to keep their focus. So
Speaker 3: obviously the title big connotes like a physical size, but
Speaker 3: in the book, big means that and like a lot more.
Speaker 3: So can you talk about what the bigness means here?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I was thinking a lot about how we as adults
Speaker 5: use words with children. When kids are young, we use
Speaker 5: big as a word of affirmation. We say you're such
Speaker 5: a big girl, you're a big girl now, and that's
Speaker 5: a good thing. But typically with girls and all children,
Speaker 5: big changes meaning and I wanted to trace how that
Speaker 5: word can go from a word of affirmation into something
Speaker 5: different for a child's life.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because I remember being a big girl and
Speaker 3: being a big girl. Yeah, and when that day happens,
Speaker 3: I think you're like, I don't know, eleven, and then
Speaker 3: it's like, oh.
Speaker 5: You're such a big girl, Like oh, she's a big,
Speaker 5: big girl, right, and you remember that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Because like that why it was so interesting to me,
Speaker 3: because like this is in my autobiographical right. So the
Speaker 3: main character gets stuck in like a baby swing and
Speaker 3: y'all have seen the baby swing at a swing set,
Speaker 3: and you know, thought like I shouldn't get in this thing,
Speaker 3: but you did try, like we all tried. So is
Speaker 3: this something that actually happened to you, like getting stuck
Speaker 3: in that swing?
Speaker 5: Yes, So the girl in the book is not me.
Speaker 5: She doesn't have a name, but the experience of getting
Speaker 5: stuck in the swing was real, and it happened to me,
Speaker 5: and I remember it. I remember the fear and the
Speaker 5: anxiety and the shame that I felt as a young child,
Speaker 5: and I wanted to kind of make a book that
Speaker 5: acknowledged that those feelings are big and sometimes can trap
Speaker 5: us in and box us in, and express how those
Speaker 5: feelings can be really overwhelming for a young person.
Speaker 3: So why doesn't she have a name? Because I was
Speaker 3: reading the book because this is a page turner, even
Speaker 3: at my big age. Why doesn't she have a name?
Speaker 5: Well, I didn't want her story to be mine. I
Speaker 5: wanted many people to be able to look at the
Speaker 5: girl in this book and maybe connect with her, feel
Speaker 5: empathy for her, and thusly feel compassion for her experience.
Speaker 5: But when I started writing it, I really wanted it
Speaker 5: to be a wordless book. Right now, there's only a
Speaker 5: handful of words in the book, but you know, it
Speaker 5: would have been great to just tell everything through the pictures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was like looking at it and I
Speaker 3: think because it looks like a memory and it's a
Speaker 3: little girl that looks like me, and because she didn't
Speaker 3: have a name, I was like, oh, I remember being
Speaker 3: on the swing set and being so afraid to try
Speaker 3: to get in it and try to get in that
Speaker 3: baby swing. Now, mind you, we've all seen the baby swing,
Speaker 3: and if you're not a baby, you really have no
Speaker 3: business trying to get in this baby But I would
Speaker 3: see other girls get into it, and I'm.
Speaker 4: Just like, oh, where is the rest of her legs?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, why are her legs?
Speaker 4: She's nine?
Speaker 3: Why are her legs only as big as a toddler?
Speaker 3: Like we shouldn't be upset that I'm so big? Why
Speaker 3: she's so small? Like somebody called somebody because I feel
Speaker 3: like she needs help at home. But that was my
Speaker 3: way of like processing the fact that this nine year
Speaker 3: old girl could fit in a baby swing and I couldn't.
Speaker 3: Because I love the use of the color pink in
Speaker 3: the book. Is that where you add in like the
Speaker 3: softness or was it because it was a classic like
Speaker 3: girl color, and she's a dancer. Like, what was the
Speaker 3: choice to use the color?
Speaker 5: There were a couple of different reasons. So the main
Speaker 5: character is a dancer. She loves ballet. Typically when I
Speaker 5: work on a book, I usually assign a color to
Speaker 5: a character and try to use that to build a palette.
Speaker 5: And specifically in this book, we're in her world, so
Speaker 5: everything is that color pink. I wanted it to be
Speaker 5: a symbol for sweetness and innocence, but also in color psychology,
Speaker 5: pink is associated with gentle love and care, and that's
Speaker 5: everything that I want for this girl.
Speaker 3: So you were trying to give her the moment because
Speaker 3: I think a lot of times, as like girls, especially
Speaker 3: black girls, were given womanhood much older than we should be.
Speaker 3: And because I think for me, I got more womanhood
Speaker 3: much older than I should because I was well, let's
Speaker 3: just say, when I was nine years old, I had
Speaker 3: like seas right, So the first time I hit a
Speaker 3: man hit on me, I was nine but a butt
Speaker 3: had big boobs and I was wearing a suit, so
Speaker 3: because I couldn't wear little girl clothes because they didn't
Speaker 3: make little girl clothes in women's sizes, So I was
Speaker 3: looking at size nine shoes in a suit, and this
Speaker 3: man comes in and.
Speaker 4: It's like, what's your name?
Speaker 3: And I had to turn around and go I'm nine.
Speaker 3: And he was like, now, what are you name? And
Speaker 3: my mother went what the hell? And he ran out
Speaker 3: of a Miami playlist and so without going at first,
Speaker 3: why does she look like this? And then he ran outside.
Speaker 3: But it was like when you're built like a because
Speaker 3: I was also like four if I was five feet tall,
Speaker 3: So when you look like a tiny woman or you're
Speaker 3: the size of a whole woman but you're nine, everyone's like, well,
Speaker 3: you should.
Speaker 4: Have all these responsibilities.
Speaker 3: And it's like, but I got dolls for Christmas, so
Speaker 3: I'm not a double digit age but everyone's like, you
Speaker 3: get all this responsibility. And I think it's like, that's
Speaker 3: why I like looking at this, because I was like, Oh,
Speaker 3: this is the this experienced sick girl shouldn't have because
Speaker 3: we should get to be little. So I think I'm
Speaker 3: gonna ask you the next question.
Speaker 4: I do want to touch on that. Hi, I want
Speaker 4: to talk about it.
Speaker 5: I want to talk about that because one of the
Speaker 5: main reasons I wanted to write this story was to
Speaker 5: touch on this subject of adultification. Bias the adultification of
Speaker 5: black girls. Early in my career, I had read the
Speaker 5: study that came from the Georgetown Law Center on Poverty
Speaker 5: and Anequality called Girlhood Interrupted, that talked about the specific
Speaker 5: bias that many adults have on black girls. It found
Speaker 5: that adults viewed black girls as young as the age
Speaker 5: of five as less innocent and more adult than their
Speaker 5: white counterparts. And this results in young girls receiving less
Speaker 5: care and less nurturing. And so many different things factor
Speaker 5: into it, including a child's height, age, skin color, body size,
Speaker 5: and weight. And I just wanted to reclaim space for
Speaker 5: children to grow, for their bodies to look different, to
Speaker 5: offer them the innocence and gentleness and care that they
Speaker 5: deserve for as long as they needed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because then you find out, like black girls get
Speaker 3: out of all girls in school, they get suspended as
Speaker 3: a higher rate, exactly as if like they're doing more wrong,
Speaker 3: but like black children and brown children get suspend it
Speaker 3: at a higher rate. Cause it's like I don't I mean,
Speaker 3: I don't know if we're throwing hands better than white girls.
Speaker 3: But it's very interesting because it's like you use the
Speaker 3: words like creative and compassionate and kind to describe these,
Speaker 3: you know, to describe her character, and it's like, I
Speaker 3: think a lot of times, like a young girl, if
Speaker 3: you're allowed to even be little, you know, you get
Speaker 3: like a lot of cute or pretty. Like Do you
Speaker 3: think it affects girls to hear different words like compassionate
Speaker 3: and kind, like giving words that are more described like
Speaker 3: descriptors of person just adjectives of personality as opposed to
Speaker 3: like appearance.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I just want for all kids to
Speaker 5: be able to define who they are. Adults will make mistakes,
Speaker 5: they will say things words that you know, we don't
Speaker 5: know what's going to stick with kids. But I wanted
Speaker 5: to clarify for this girl and for any kid that
Speaker 5: reads this book that you get to choose what's important
Speaker 5: and real for you, and you don't have to hold
Speaker 5: on to anything that doesn't define you. You get to
Speaker 5: decide that for yourself.
Speaker 3: There's one page in here, and I want to know,
Speaker 3: can I show the page in the book that she.
Speaker 4: Goes through.
Speaker 3: And I'm not gonna spoil it for people, because you
Speaker 3: have to see her grow and grow and the changes
Speaker 3: that she goes to. But there's one page almost there
Speaker 3: that I and I think you know the exactly the
Speaker 3: page I'm talking about where me and our makeup artist,
Speaker 3: Enid was literally crying in the makeup room. And I
Speaker 3: don't know if you know how crying in the makeup
Speaker 3: room works, but it's basically you just tilt your head
Speaker 3: back and you catch the tears, because Enid is an
Speaker 3: amazing makeup artist. But it's just like there's soult on
Speaker 3: my face now. So but the thing that we were
Speaker 3: just like that made her stop. It made me stop.
Speaker 3: Where the little girl goes to the adults, these are.
Speaker 5: Yours, these are yours. They hurt me.
Speaker 3: And so she's holding words and she said, these are yours,
Speaker 3: they're hurting, and so I think, like that's when I
Speaker 3: was looking at this, I was like, this's a book
Speaker 3: for children, because there are a lot of people that
Speaker 3: make a lot of money, my therapists included, who make
Speaker 3: a lot of money trying to show adults how to
Speaker 3: love and care for themselves. And I'm just is there
Speaker 3: like a grown up version of this book? Can we
Speaker 3: call it?
Speaker 4: Like still big? Like can we how do we just
Speaker 4: a little bit at the time?
Speaker 3: And then there's just a bad bitch at the bottom,
Speaker 3: like that's all I'm saying, just still big, bad bitch
Speaker 3: at the bottoms. You might be modeled on me makings diying.
Speaker 3: I don't know who you want to choose, but you know,
Speaker 3: just still big. I think that that could be some
Speaker 3: grown ups may also need help with this, So thank
Speaker 3: you for that for everyone.
Speaker 5: So I'm happy with that. Only life with that from
Speaker 5: find sometimes for themselves.
Speaker 3: And I think it's gonna be good if you have
Speaker 3: anybody who's working on their self estate this. I think
Speaker 3: this is something that everybody can resonate with because there's
Speaker 3: a lot of times where just words of just because
Speaker 3: they always take just like sticks and stones to break
Speaker 3: your bones with words. And I'm like, I can get
Speaker 3: over a bruise, but like I learned with my ex
Speaker 3: emotional scars, never heal, don't learn from me, don't listen
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 4: I'm not helpful a lot of the time.
Speaker 3: But but I think that is the main thing we have.
Speaker 3: We have to stop telling that lie because I think
Speaker 3: we tell that to children for them to be able
Speaker 3: to make this defense mechanism because like you don't remember,
Speaker 3: like if you remember every time you fell off a bike,
Speaker 3: you wouldn't get back on a bike. But you remember,
Speaker 3: like you don't remember what someone said, which you remember
Speaker 3: how they made you feel for sure. And so because
Speaker 3: the words can make you feel a certain way, even
Speaker 3: you forget what they said, your body still remembers.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And that's why I think I wanted to show
Speaker 5: the scene in the book where the words are stuck
Speaker 5: to the girl. It doesn't happen immediately. It happens, you know,
Speaker 5: over time and again, like you just don't know what
Speaker 5: is going to stick with kids, You can't guarantee that
Speaker 5: things won't stick to you, but you know, over time
Speaker 5: you can separate out what's good for you and what isn't.
Speaker 5: I think the page after the page you pointed out
Speaker 5: is the one that always gets me, which is she
Speaker 5: hands back the words and says, these are yours. They
Speaker 5: hurt me. And on the next page some of the
Speaker 5: people say, well, not everyone understood or even listened, and
Speaker 5: some of the people say it's not that serious, it's
Speaker 5: just a joke. You're too sensitive. That's the thing that
Speaker 5: still still gets me, because I am still that girl
Speaker 5: who was told that I'm too sensitive for listening to
Speaker 5: the words that people said to me, for letting them
Speaker 5: them resonate and for feeling them. Oh yeah, but that's
Speaker 5: so real, and kids need often the space and the
Speaker 5: time to to manage those things.
Speaker 3: Well, you're absolutely right. I want to thank you for coming.
Speaker 6: Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by
Speaker 6: searching The Daily Show wherever you get your podcasts. Watch
Speaker 6: The Daily Show week nights at eleven ten Central on
Speaker 6: Comedy Central, and stream pull episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus.
Speaker 1: This has been a Comedy Central podcast.