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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Governor Ron De Santis says he's

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Speaker 1: moved on from the Disney lawsuit. Well that's enough for me.

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Speaker 1: Today we have an incredible show. NBC News correspondent Ali

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Speaker 1: Vidally gives us a ground report from the Iowa State

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Speaker 1: Fair and all the shenanigans that are going on in

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party. Spoiler, there's a butter cow. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to the Washington Post Caroline Kitchener about the horrifying

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Speaker 1: aftermath of women's lives in a post row world. But

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Speaker 1: first we have the host of the next level, your

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Speaker 1: friend and mine the Bulwarks, Tim Miller. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Frequent flyer and real friend of mine.

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Speaker 2: To Miller, Hey, Molly, I wish we can start doing

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Speaker 2: this in person again.

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Speaker 1: So me too, man, I mean you fly back and

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Speaker 1: forth between our two. Yeah, I'll fight to New Orleans and.

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Speaker 2: We'll figure something out.

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Speaker 1: Carvel.

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Speaker 2: It would be a great episode of Past Politics. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: tender up to have you and Carvil and me, you know,

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Speaker 2: live at Tippotina's or at Lafite's blacksmiths shop or something.

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Speaker 2: I think that would make for some good listening.

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Speaker 1: If you guys want that, text Jesse his phone number is,

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Speaker 1: or just DM him Jesse Cannon. So anyway, four indictments

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Speaker 1: plus the superseding, so it's actually five if we're going

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Speaker 1: to get technical Georgia last night. This is airing on Wednesday,

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Speaker 1: so it will we'll still be chewing on this. I

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Speaker 1: mean again, imagine you were working for Jeb Bush. Imagine

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Speaker 1: old Republican Party with this being the front runner.

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Speaker 2: Forget Republican Party. I just imagine being a human and

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Speaker 2: having this be our reality. I mean, it's just it's

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Speaker 2: very strange. You know, those pictures are going around Monday

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Speaker 2: Night of Rudy and Trump when Rudy's dressed in drag,

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Speaker 2: and you know, from like the early oughts, and it's like,

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Speaker 2: imagine going back to two thousand and two and having

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Speaker 2: someone tell you that in twenty years, Donald Trump and

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Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani are going to be indicted for trying to

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Speaker 2: steal the election in Georgia. I mean, the whole thing

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Speaker 2: is preposterous. It's like from a B movie, D movie.

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Speaker 2: So it is kind of hard to wrap one's head around, though.

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously the serious elements of this is just

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Speaker 2: that again once again, the conservative media and the Republican

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Speaker 2: Party have just are just utterly failing the tests that's

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Speaker 2: put forth to them, and no one is moving off

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Speaker 2: of their Donald Trump approved talking points about this increasingly

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Speaker 2: vast deep state. In four different parts of the country

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Speaker 2: now are that are now indicting and attacking and supposedly

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Speaker 2: oppressing Donald Trump over his coup attempt and his porn

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Speaker 2: star payoffs and all of his other crimes. So you know,

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Speaker 2: they are going to continue to fall down on the job.

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Speaker 2: And it's almost like that element of this is not new.

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Speaker 2: I think that there are some elements of the Georgia

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Speaker 2: thing that are new and important, such as the fact

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Speaker 2: that it's going to be televised, the fact that he

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Speaker 2: can't be pardoned for it, which brings up an interesting

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Speaker 2: wrinkle to just think the strength of the Fonnie Willis

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Speaker 2: indictment and just the expansiveness of it, how many other people,

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Speaker 2: all of its co conspirators. I was mentally ranking which

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Speaker 2: of the nineteen indicted people I'm going to enjoy their

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Speaker 2: mugshot the most. I'm trying to. I was like doing

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Speaker 2: a little mental rankings. I can't really enjoy Trump's mugshot

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Speaker 2: until he's actually in jail. So I think that Rudy

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Speaker 2: and Jeff Clark and Jenna Ellis are my top three

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Speaker 2: and kind of just depending on my mood at the moment,

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Speaker 2: I'm moving them around in my mental rankings.

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Speaker 1: Those are the fan favorites. I think it's totally interesting

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Speaker 1: because it's like he has all these indictments, all these

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Speaker 1: different trial dates, then he has all these like civil cases.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the thing you forget about, like right,

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Speaker 1: you know, these civil cases like the Capitol police officers families,

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Speaker 1: the ones who died or you know, and you have

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Speaker 1: Egene Carol. I mean, there's just a sort of sea

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Speaker 1: of civil litigation too. And he is seventy seven years old,

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Speaker 1: though he does look mirror seventy six with the implanted

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Speaker 1: wig that does look like sponge sugar discuss.

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Speaker 2: So here's the thing that is concerning to me that

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Speaker 2: makes me think I'm becoming a boomer is that sometimes

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Speaker 2: I don't even know what's real on social media anymore.

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Speaker 2: So I don't expect to know how regular people can tell.

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Speaker 2: But somebody sent a post that I that where Chris

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Speaker 2: Christie said he looked like a cheap honey baked ham

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Speaker 2: but I don't know if that's actually true or not,

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Speaker 2: or somebody who is just doing a Chris Christie bitch,

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Speaker 2: but he does look like a cheap honey baked haam. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean, can you campaign from the courtroom? This is

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Speaker 2: the thing that is crazy when you combine the old

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Speaker 2: civil litigation on the next album interviewing Robbie Kaplan this week,

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Speaker 2: who's Egene's attorney? Who I love? And these actual A

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Speaker 2: list attorneys that are going at Donald Trump right now,

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Speaker 2: both criminally and civilly. They're like dogs on a bone

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Speaker 2: and they know what they're doing. And Donald Trump is

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Speaker 2: at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to

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Speaker 2: his defense, and so he you know, he's going to

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Speaker 2: be spending a lot of time in court. We are

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Speaker 2: really an unchartered territory here, and how do you campaign

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Speaker 2: this way? You would think going back to the Republicans,

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Speaker 2: so there would be a practical case that somebody would

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Speaker 2: try to make, which is just like, no matter how

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Speaker 2: much you liked Donald Trump, we're not putting our best

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Speaker 2: foot forward. If our nominee has like seven court dates

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Speaker 2: over the course of the general election, and my pass

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Speaker 2: will be imprisoned. I mean, you think, just practically speaking,

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Speaker 2: they would think we should go a different direction. I

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Speaker 2: was in Iowa last week, and I think it's funny

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Speaker 2: and two on two parts. I was talking to an

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Speaker 2: Iowa super a DeSantis super Pac staffer who said to

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Speaker 2: me that they are that they're kind of okay with

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Speaker 2: finishing second and third in some states and amassing delegates

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Speaker 2: because who knows what will happen with Trump and court

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Speaker 2: and maybe there'll be a convention fight. And it's like, boy,

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Speaker 2: that's a pretty depressing situation for DeSantis that they're hoping

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Speaker 2: that Trump is in jail and that they can win

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Speaker 2: a convention fight. But it also speaks to kind of

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Speaker 2: there's a non zero chance that that is a real possibility.

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Speaker 1: Right, that there's a convention fight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it's just it's both pathetic on the

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Speaker 2: DeSantis part team to like say that they're considering that,

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Speaker 2: but it's also, I mean not completely improbable at this point,

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Speaker 2: given how many court dates, domney arrangements, what's going to have.

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Speaker 1: What it seems to me like and you tell me

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Speaker 1: if this is my own I feel like it's so

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Speaker 1: easy to get into your own bubble with what you

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Speaker 1: read and how you extrapolate, and I'm always like pretty

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Speaker 1: trying to not do that, which is very hard. It

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Speaker 1: seems to me like the situation is we have a like,

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Speaker 1: if you are a Republican elite, if you are a

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Speaker 1: person who is, you know, you're freaking out because you

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Speaker 1: know this guy is not growing the electorate.

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Speaker 2: Who is though, right, Molly, who is growing the electorate.

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Speaker 1: Or even trying? Like I mean, I think Biden is

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Speaker 1: trying to appeal to more people, for sure.

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Speaker 2: I met among the Republicans. Yeah, I'm met among the Republicans.

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Speaker 2: Sorry that this is my point. Like DeSantis, and the

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Speaker 2: whole theory of the case behind DeSantis, right, was that

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Speaker 2: that there was this group of people. John Meacham coined this.

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Speaker 2: I'm annoyed that he stole it, but so I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: give him credit and he didn't steal and I'm enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: I'm annoyed that he came up with this, but I'm

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Speaker 2: going to steal it and give him credit. You know,

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Speaker 2: they called him the Peter malar Vest Conservatives, you know,

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Speaker 2: people that never really liked Trump in the first place,

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Speaker 2: and read the Wall Street Journal, like, the theory of

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Speaker 2: the case for DeSantis was that he could keep all

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Speaker 2: of the maga voters, you know, because of his culture

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Speaker 2: war nonsense. But then add back in some of these

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Speaker 2: like Atlanta suburbs dads who just like voted for Joe

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Speaker 2: Biden because they couldn't listen to their wife talking about

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump anymore, and it was just like the coup

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Speaker 2: was too much for them, right the last the final

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Speaker 2: switchers that it's like, can run to stand this win

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Speaker 2: those people anywhere. It seems like he's doing worse in

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Speaker 2: both counts, like there will be some magga dead enders

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Speaker 2: who won't vote for him, and he's going so crazy

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Speaker 2: on the culture war stuff that that kind of crowd,

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Speaker 2: that suburban dad crowd is Is he that much even

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Speaker 2: more appealing than Trump at this point? So Trump is

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Speaker 2: not trying to expand, but nobody else is. So nobody's

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Speaker 2: making the case that, oh but I can't, right like,

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Speaker 2: and that was that was how somebody could be Trump.

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Speaker 2: They're going to be able to say to the Republican voters,

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Speaker 2: I can give you the maga stuff you like. And

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Speaker 2: also get more votes, right, I mean, that's the path,

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Speaker 2: and yet no one seems to be offering that.

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Speaker 1: Or even trying to. Yeah, the trons right. For such

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Speaker 1: a long time, since twenty fifteen, we've spent so much

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Speaker 1: time like trying to figure out like what the future

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Speaker 1: of the Republican Party would be, and especially for someone

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Speaker 1: like you and Bill Crystal and Sarah like you guys

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Speaker 1: are pretty focused on like how we could rebuild this,

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Speaker 1: or at least I feel like for a while you

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Speaker 1: were how you could rebuild this in a way that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just what it is right now. And it

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Speaker 1: does seem like they they're just is sort of no,

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Speaker 1: there are no ideas.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think a rightas are just ones we don't

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Speaker 2: like right right, And I mean like this is and

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Speaker 2: this way you can get into you know, New York

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Speaker 2: Times piece about you know, kind of the polling and

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Speaker 2: where the Republicans are. But there was this push and

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Speaker 2: pull with on the party, right, And I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to give a full history lesson here on past politics,

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Speaker 2: but you know, you go back to the to the

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Speaker 2: autopsy which I worked on the JUBU, which was basically

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to modernize and re skin compassionate conservatism.

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Speaker 2: How can you do better in the suburbs, maybe soften

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Speaker 2: the position on social issues, on immigration, on gay marriage,

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Speaker 2: and broaden the tent appeal more to younger folks. And

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Speaker 2: then there was this counter vision like, no, we can

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Speaker 2: win by going full populist, by shedding all of the

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Speaker 2: whole old you know, just going around Yeah, well, well Nazi, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe Nazis brought in the I'm going to

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you the best spin on what they

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Speaker 2: would say. I we would call it Nazi. They would say, no,

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Speaker 2: we're going to give you true populist conservatism that gets

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Speaker 2: rid of all of the trickle down economics stuff and

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Speaker 2: appeals more to working class people of every color and

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Speaker 2: every race. And we're still going to say racist stuff,

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Speaker 2: and we're still still going to ban all, you know,

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Speaker 2: like band Muslims and Latinos from entering the country. We're

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Speaker 2: just gonna whisper that part and hopefully that they appeal

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Speaker 2: to us because they also, you know, these working class

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Speaker 2: you know, there's kind of a racist element to this

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Speaker 2: case actually, that these working class Hispanic and Black folks,

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Speaker 2: they're going to agree with us when we demonize trans people,

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Speaker 2: and and you know, so maybe we can appeal to

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Speaker 2: them that way.

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Speaker 1: They are as discriminatory as we are, exactly, and so

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Speaker 1: we can expand among you.

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Speaker 2: Know, working class black and latinos and and you know,

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Speaker 2: just ignore these the suburb moms and and you know

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Speaker 2: who aren't hardcore enough for us. So like that was

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Speaker 2: their case, and they won the argument. I mean not

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Speaker 2: they haven't won many elections, so they have they haven't

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Speaker 2: won the argument in the case they're not succeeding very well,

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Speaker 2: but they they've won a lot of time the party. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: within the party, they've won the argument. And there are

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Speaker 2: now very few people even arguing that we, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of go back to a compassionate conservatism type. And

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Speaker 2: this is now the accepted move is that somehow that

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Speaker 2: the Republicans can win by this pivot towards Trumpian populism racism.

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Speaker 1: So this leads to another question I want to ask you.

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Speaker 1: There's a piece last week that David Brooks wrote about

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Speaker 1: we the Elite, and it's funny because so basically that

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Speaker 1: for those of you who are not extremely online and

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Speaker 1: who might have missed this, the idea was, what if

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Speaker 1: we the elites are the bad guys. What if we

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Speaker 1: have ignored a populist sentiment. I think it was a

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Speaker 1: little bit generous.

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Speaker 2: That's a nice way of putting it right.

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Speaker 1: It assumed that the Republicans were not running on this

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Speaker 1: base racism, sexism, divisionism, which I think is wrong and unfair.

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Speaker 1: But it's an interesting exercise to look at, like why

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Speaker 1: is that group so angry? And again, we spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time talking about that, especially the New York

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Speaker 1: Times does spend a lot of time talking about that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I've read a lot about this, this

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Speaker 1: idea that the left have come sort of Brahmins and

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Speaker 1: that they are a sort of more educated class in

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Speaker 1: a way that they've lost the working man. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's really true, but I'm just curious, like, ponder

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Speaker 1: on this.

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Speaker 2: For me, here's the generous part to David Brooks's argument.

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Speaker 2: I think that there's something to be said about the

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Speaker 2: fact that, you know, we have had this education polarization.

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Speaker 2: Like for a while, there were working class Democrats, we

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Speaker 2: working class Republicans, college educated class, college educated Republicans. Now

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Speaker 2: it's like most of the college educated folks, particularly higher

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Speaker 2: college educated folks, are Democrats overwhelmingly, and so the people

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Speaker 2: that make up Democratic campaigns are overwhelmingly you know, college

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Speaker 2: educated and socially and culturally liberal. And I do think

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Speaker 2: that there are times when the way Democrats talk it's

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Speaker 2: alienating to working class folks who don't you know, who

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Speaker 2: don't like you know, all the more a's of you know,

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Speaker 2: what the new you know, hot terms are in polite society, right,

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Speaker 2: And so I think that there's something to be said

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Speaker 2: for that. And I think that there's maybe been more

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Speaker 2: an increase in focus on identity issues and a decrease

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Speaker 2: sometimes on economic and class issues in the Democratic Party.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a fair discussion they have. Okay,

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Speaker 2: but here's the thing that doesn't let these That doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean you just let all these Trump voters off the

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Speaker 2: hook for supporting a racist buffoon who tried to overthrow

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Speaker 2: the government. And it's so condescending. In an article about

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Speaker 2: how like elites need to be less condescending towards working

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Speaker 2: class people, it's such a condescending notion that these people

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Speaker 2: are so stupid that they can't figure out that Trump

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Speaker 2: is a charlatan. Like they're not that stupid, Like there

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Speaker 2: are other reasons why they're going with Trump. And the

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Speaker 2: best way to prove this is there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: working class people of color that don't seem to have

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Speaker 2: been fooled by this. And so if the only reason

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Speaker 2: that these guys are going to Trump is because the

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Speaker 2: elites are whatever so mean to working class people, I'm

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Speaker 2: looking down their nose at working class people. It's like, well, then,

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Speaker 2: why haven't any working class black volks been fooled by

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Speaker 2: this and gone along with Trump? They haven't, Like, there

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Speaker 2: are other cultural forces at play here, And I think

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Speaker 2: maybe this was a defensible argument in twenty sixteen, but

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, my god, let's have a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a higher standard for what we expect from people.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point, and I actually

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Speaker 1: think it's not even that complicated. I think that the

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Speaker 1: fundamental mechanics of presidential campaigns and presidential elections are the

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Speaker 1: same as they have always been. Which is the candidate

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Speaker 1: that is the most charismatic, the one that you feel

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Speaker 1: like is talking to you, That's the one you vote

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: And that's the case for sure, you know, and I

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Speaker 2: think that you know, there are other issues at play, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, the folks that feel like Trump is talking

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Speaker 2: to them, like, don't feel like Trump is one of

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Speaker 2: them obviously, right, It's just he is channeling their grievances

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Speaker 2: and concerns, right, And some of those are legitimate. You know,

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Speaker 2: in some of these communities, you know they've been hollowed

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Speaker 2: out and you know they know they were overserving in

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Speaker 2: our wars, you know, and Iraq in Afghanistan disproportionately, right,

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Speaker 2: Like they have some legitimate concerns, but you know there's

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Speaker 2: a limit to that, right, I mean, like trumpkint chandily

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Speaker 2: your legitimate concerns and then it's like okay, once you're

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Speaker 2: charging the capitol. That's the other thing. The whole thing

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Speaker 2: is preposterous that Trump cares about these people and cares

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Speaker 2: about anything but himself. And that's the frustrating part about

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Speaker 2: the David Bruks thing, right, is that like these people

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Speaker 2: are in jail. Some of these people are in jail

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Speaker 2: because of Donald Trump. I are dead because they didn't

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Speaker 2: take the vaccine, you know what I mean. Like, the

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Speaker 2: whole thing is silly.

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Speaker 1: Kurt Anderson posted this yesterday and I just want to

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Speaker 1: read it to you. It's from this Evan Osnos piece

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Speaker 1: in The New Yorker from twenty fifteen. Trump has bequeathed

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Speaker 1: a concoction of celebrity, wealth and alienation that is more

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Speaker 1: potent than any we've seen before. If, as the Republican

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Speaker 1: establishment hopes, the stargazers eventually defect, Trump will be left

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Speaker 1: with the hardest core, the portion of the electorate that

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Speaker 1: is drifting deeper into unreality with no reconciliation insight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty good from Evan twenty fifteen, twenty fifteen, Very

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Speaker 2: prescient there. Yeah, and it's got and that group has

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Speaker 2: only grown since then. That's that's the scariest part about it.

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Speaker 2: And the part that you know really when you when

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Speaker 2: you need to really reckon with what's happening in the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party. Like that group, the group that's drifted into unreality,

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Speaker 2: has increased their share within the party. And you know,

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Speaker 2: when I go to these Republican events is what you see,

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Speaker 2: and I always go back to the and now they've

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Speaker 2: almost recruited or groomed, if you will, a younger generation

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Speaker 2: of Republicans into that disreality. You know, when I went

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Speaker 2: to that Turning Point USA conference, the first question I'd

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Speaker 2: ask every one of these college kids, was like, what

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Speaker 2: do you care about?

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Speaker 4: Why you hear?

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Speaker 2: And it's all vaccine conspiracies, We're wasting money in Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: trans stuff, culture, war stuff, election for a lout And

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Speaker 2: it was none of the stuff that dorky Alex P. Keaton,

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Speaker 2: you know, Republicans of my era cared about, right, It

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Speaker 2: was a totally different thing. And so that's not every

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Speaker 2: young Republican of course, but but it's.

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Speaker 1: The ones who are showing up to go to the events.

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Speaker 2: So that group in the this reality has just like now,

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Speaker 2: has an even greater stranglehold within the party. And I

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Speaker 2: think the one thing about that has changed since that

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Speaker 2: quote from Evan is, you know he was talking about

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't have the exact quote in front

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Speaker 2: of me, but that core, you know that that was

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Speaker 2: going to be left, that core is getting near to

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Speaker 2: a majority within the party now and it's certainly a plurality.

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Speaker 1: Really scary stuff. Talk to me about what yours this week,

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Speaker 1: sort of what it looks like for you, what you're watching.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing after this, Molly, that's

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Speaker 2: a hard question. I'm excited. Look, here's what I'm watching

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's going to get fingerprinted and treated like a

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Speaker 2: real criminal in Georgia. And we've had this two tiered

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Speaker 2: system of justice discussion, and like the real two tiered

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Speaker 2: system of justice is in the way that Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: has been treated. You know, I talked about this on

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Speaker 2: the next level. I guess you know. I was arrested

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Speaker 2: for minor and posis of alcohol a couple of times.

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Speaker 2: Not exactly a hard and criminal, but I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: I got put in the holding pen for a couple hours.

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Speaker 2: You know, I got treated like an actual criminal for

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Speaker 2: being under twenty one and having alcohol. Obviously, there are

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Speaker 2: much worse criminals and much more worse treatment of our

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Speaker 2: criminal justiceism that did you know, marginalized groups, how they

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Speaker 2: get treated. Donald Trump hasn't been fingerprinted, he has been handcuffed,

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Speaker 2: he hasn't had a mugshot. He's got to do all

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Speaker 2: that sometime in the next ten days now. And so

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Speaker 2: good on Fannie Willis and the Fulton County Sheriff for

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Speaker 2: taking this seriously and actually treating him like they treat

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Speaker 2: anybody else that came through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, my mom spent a night in jail for DUI.

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Speaker 1: Always good to work into conversations. Thank you, Tim Miller.

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Speaker 2: I hope you'll come back anytime.

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Speaker 1: Ali Vitally is an NBC News correspondent. She's adorable, and

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Speaker 1: she is the author of Electable Why America hasn't put

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Speaker 1: a woman in the White House yet? Welcome Too Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: Aally Vitally.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: I'm so happy to be back.

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Speaker 1: You are here in Iowa, the center of everything, the

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Speaker 1: place with a pork tent and a butter cow discuss.

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Speaker 5: I mean, look the butter cow. Now, my first time

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Speaker 5: seeing the butter cow. But I think here's the fun fact.

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Speaker 5: Did you know that the butter cow is not like

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Speaker 5: resculpted every year.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've spent so little time thinking about the

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Speaker 1: butter cow. But I would hope it's not your career.

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Speaker 1: That would be such an old bunch of butter. I mean, eventually,

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Speaker 1: do they know.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying, is it is an old bunch

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Speaker 3: of butter.

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Speaker 1: Oh it is.

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Speaker 3: No, it is not resculpted every year.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's really disappointing. So let's I thought Jesse. Jesse

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Speaker 1: just texted me, and I thought he was going to say, like,

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Speaker 1: stop talking about this stupid cow. But in fact, he

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Speaker 1: was like a real dairy cow weighs more than a

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Speaker 1: thousand pounds, but the butter version comes in at about

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Speaker 1: six hundred.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that this one was sculptured in two

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Speaker 5: thousand and six.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about Iowa. I feel like I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get you on because A, you wrote a lift

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Speaker 1: on television and that was fabulous, But more importantly, here

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Speaker 1: we are in Iowa, and it feels like a metaphor.

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Speaker 1: Talk to me about what happened. I think the key

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Speaker 1: moment was this weekend when DeSantis was in Iowa trying

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Speaker 1: desperately to sort of win this state, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of the state they've been most focused on, and Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump sort of flew in. So talk to me about

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Speaker 1: that dynamic and what you saw.

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Speaker 5: I mean, first of all, I think it's clear that

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Speaker 5: Iowa always has outsize importance. But for anyone in this

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Speaker 5: field who wants to try to show that they actually

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Speaker 5: couldn't take a stand against Trump, I don't mean.

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Speaker 3: That morally or rhetorically.

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Speaker 5: I mean that electorally, because clearly they're not willing to

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Speaker 5: do it the other way. Electorally, you have to win

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Speaker 5: in Iowa, and I know that that's always the conventional knowledge,

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Speaker 5: but it's so important now and poles have been pretty stagnant.

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Speaker 3: So the fact I think that a.

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Speaker 5: DeSantis and Tim Scott's here, and Nicky Haley is here,

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Speaker 5: and Mike Pence is here, and everyone in the field

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Speaker 5: is coming to the Iowa State Fair. It doesn't always

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Speaker 5: matter where everyone in the field goes, because Trump doesn't

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Speaker 5: always go there. But I do think it reminds how

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Speaker 5: important an event like this is when Trump does show up.

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Speaker 3: He was only here for about ninety minutes.

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Speaker 5: He completely sucked all the oxygen out of the fair

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Speaker 5: when he came in and made his rounds.

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Speaker 3: Over the course of a small area of the fair.

432
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,920
Speaker 5: But it was less that Trump was here and more

433
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 5: of the ways that he was trolling De Santis quite

434
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 5: frankly to me right, the fact that he brought Florida

435
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 5: lawmakers like Byron Donald mckaate others as a reminder of

436
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 5: the fact that they're both from Florida and Desanti she's

437
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 5: a sitting governor, but Trump still has all of their endorsements.

438
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 5: And then I think the plane that was flying overhead

439
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 5: all day on Saturday was just the constant reminder I

440
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 5: think the banner behind the plane said be likable Ron,

441
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 5: And you couldn't ignore the fact for those of us

442
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 5: who covered twenty sixteen that the ron was in the

443
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 5: style of Jem Bush's twenty sixteen logo down to the

444
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 5: exclamation point. It was just troll on troll on troll

445
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 5: for DeSantis, who's really trying to get like back under

446
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 5: him after shake ups and stumbles, and they're trying to

447
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,440
Speaker 5: prove they can still do it. And look, they drew

448
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 5: a crowd, but it doesn't mean he didn't also get hypple.

449
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 1: Right, And I also think that this sort of way

450
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: Trump was able to fly in. I mean DeSantis has

451
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 1: been there all weekend, right.

452
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 5: Yep, DeSantis was here all week They're all doing multiple

453
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 5: events around this fair. They are sitting with the governor

454
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 5: doing a fair side chat, they are going around to

455
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 5: tent slipping pork chops. I mean, everyone here is doing

456
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 5: the typical retail politics that you quote unquote have to do,

457
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 5: except that Trump is preempted from that process because he's Trump.

458
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 5: So yeah, they all have to putting the legwork, the

459
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 5: sweat work, the Santa Pale everyone but Trump gets to

460
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 5: literally fly in, spend ninety minutes and peace.

461
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: So he did pay for a bunch of pork at

462
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: the pork tent.

463
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 3: I believe that's true.

464
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 1: You know, he sort of bought some pork for people,

465
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: and he may have bought some other stuff. But it

466
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,679
Speaker 1: is interesting to me. And he does not get along

467
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 1: wow with Iowa governor right.

468
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 5: Right, he has picked a fight with her, and it's quizzical,

469
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 5: especially because you know, she is the sitting governor of

470
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 5: a state that everyone agrees is important on this electoral map.

471
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 5: She's a popular Republican and in any normal world she

472
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 5: would probably be on a Beepsteak's list down the line.

473
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 5: If you're Trump and you're leading the pack and you're

474
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 5: likely to get the nomination, that's probably where your mind

475
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 5: would go. And so the fact that he's picked a

476
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 5: fight with Kim Reynolds, who is popular here, I mean, look,

477
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 5: I don't know that it loses him at any points,

478
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 5: but certainly it's it's odd, right.

479
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot of the Republican elites, the

480
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 1: people for whom you know, writing a check for a

481
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: million dollars is not such a big deal. That crew

482
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: has worked so hard to own the levers of power

483
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: and now they know what right you're there? Even despite

484
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: what happened last night in Georgia. I mean, doesn't it

485
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: seem like he's got this nomination locked up?

486
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 5: And look, I haven't talked to voters yet. I will

487
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 5: be doing those conversations ahead of the Georgia indictment. But

488
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 5: I mean, we all knew what this was, right and

489
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 5: it's not surprising. So I did have some of these

490
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 5: conversations over the weekend at the fair, and I think

491
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 5: the one that strikes me the most. Yes, I found

492
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 5: Republican voters who didn't want to vote for Trump, either

493
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 5: again because of January sixth, or because they never wanted

494
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 5: to vote for him in the first place, and they

495
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 5: just really wish the party would move on. Those people exist.

496
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 5: It's why Trump doesn't have one hundred percent in the roles.

497
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 5: There are people who are looking for other options, but

498
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 5: his core group of supporters are still with him. I mean,

499
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 5: I this is the conversation that sticks with me. A

500
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 5: man that I spoke with who said, where was the

501
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 5: National Guard on January sixth?

502
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 3: Why was there not more security?

503
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 5: And I said, okay, I take that point, but did

504
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 5: Trump have any role to play?

505
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 3: He says, yeah, he was the president of the United States.

506
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 5: I said, okay, so you think he has the part

507
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 5: to play and blame to have on January six He

508
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 5: said yes.

509
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 3: I said, but you'd still vote for him? He said, yeah,

510
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 3: he was a great president.

511
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: Right.

512
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 5: I mean that to me kind of says everything, which

513
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 5: is that It's why the indictment still moves the needle.

514
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 5: It's why the January Stix hearings didn't necessarily move the needle.

515
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 5: And I don't mean that broadly. I mean that among Republicans.

516
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 5: I think that's the reality of this Republican primary. That's why,

517
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 5: as frustrating as it is for all of us who

518
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 5: asked these contenders time and again, hey, is the fourth

519
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 5: indictment not.

520
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 3: Enough for you?

521
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 5: Like, it's why his rivals won't go after him. There's

522
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 5: no political upside with their baits And they've.

523
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: Seen polling which says there's no political upside.

524
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: Correct.

525
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: I mean the problem with Trump is that Trump occupies

526
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: Earth too. So yes, all of these candidates who are

527
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: like I need to run to the right on policy,

528
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: they're on Earth wand like none of these normal rules

529
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: apply here.

530
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I would posit that we're all

531
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 5: on Earth one, and that's the reality that Trump in

532
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 5: habits and everyone else is in Earth too.

533
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 3: Where they're saying policy is going to win the day.

534
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 5: You know, DeSantis thinks running on a six week fan

535
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 5: as opposed to you know, just overturning Row is going

536
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 5: to be the thing that helps him win and prove

537
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 5: conservative credentials. I mean, I don't see it happening as

538
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 5: of now, but the one lesson of covering fifteen and

539
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 5: sixteen is that you don't make hard predictions because politics

540
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 5: is strange. But yeah, I mean with Trump, it's clear that.

541
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 5: I think that's why this primary feels so weird, and

542
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: I think it's the thing that's been looming over the

543
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 5: State Fair for me this entire weekend, which is usually

544
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 5: you can feel like there's a little bit of a

545
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 5: race going on, maybe someone can jockey for position, maybe

546
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 5: something will resonate. Right now, it just feels so big

547
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 5: and it doesn't have to do with policy. It has

548
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 5: to do with political vendetta and finishing the score of

549
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 5: twenty twenty, and there's no amount of policy that changes that.

550
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I do you think there are so

551
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: many people in this party who you're not hearing from

552
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: who are so desperate for it to be of avac

553
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: or in anyone right, And Nika tim Scott, I mean

554
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: you're seeing mega donors try to convalesce around tim Scott.

555
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: But doesn't it seem like they're making the same mistakes

556
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: they made in fifteen, which was like if you think

557
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: about Democrats, Democrats decided that Biden was their best shot,

558
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: and they all got behind him like in a minute, right,

559
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: like you saw Mayor Pete and now.

560
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 5: With stretch a stunning moment. I mean, I don't that

561
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 5: was wild, right, I.

562
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 1: Mean I was like, what is happening here? Like all

563
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: of a sudden, everybody else dropped out. It was just incredible.

564
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: It reminds me of what's happening right now in the

565
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: Michigan Senate race. Like Democrats got together, they were like,

566
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: this is our person, this is where we're going. Really

567
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: a stark contrast to what's happening in California, which is,

568
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: let us burn all the donor money on a race

569
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: that will have no impact.

570
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 5: I mean, that's a longer conversation about money and politics, right,

571
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 5: But but the Republicans couldn't do it right, and it's

572
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 5: very unrepublican of them in many ways. Right, Usually there

573
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 5: is the passing of the baton to the person who

574
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 5: came in second the last time around, Right, it was, Yes,

575
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 5: it went to mcmaine, and then it went to Romney,

576
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 5: and there was a little bit of sense that was

577
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 5: made of the transition process in Republican politics previously. Of course,

578
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 5: we know, and it's so trivial to say it now

579
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 5: that Trump upended all of that, you know, quote unquote

580
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 5: tradition within conservative ranks. But I actually think that this

581
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 5: might be very republican of them to stick with the

582
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 5: guy who was already there. In many ways, it doesn't

583
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 5: make sense because of all the electoral problems that will

584
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 5: come in the general. But from a primary politics perspective,

585
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 5: you know, none of this is exactly shocking, given the

586
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 5: way that we've watched Trump completely just recreate this party

587
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 5: in his own image.

588
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what's so interesting is that there

589
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: is an enormous gulf between what happens in these GOP

590
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: primaries and what will happen in the general in a

591
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,959
Speaker 1: way that I think is pretty much, again using this

592
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: terrible word, unprecedented, But I think it's unusual to have

593
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: a primary field that is occupying such a different reality

594
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: than the general I mean, I don't know how you

595
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: go to a soccer mom and say, like, Trump needs

596
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: to be back in office so she doesn't go to jail.

597
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a few things to that too, right.

598
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 5: I remember in twenty twenty, during the few days after

599
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 5: the election, when we were still figuring out what the

600
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 5: results were, I remember someone on the Biden team saying

601
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: to me, look, this coalition is fascinating. And I also

602
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 5: don't know if it's something that ever can be replicated again.

603
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 5: In part that was because of the pandemic, and part

604
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 5: it was because of the Trump factor.

605
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 3: All of those things were true.

606
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 5: I think the thing that keeps for example, suburban moms

607
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 5: in Georgia or suburban in Pennsylvania, all the areas that

608
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 5: Democrats did better in than they were anticipated to do,

609
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 5: the thing that keeps them is an issue like abortion.

610
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 5: And I think it's less that's the idea of going

611
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 5: to suburban moms and say, hey, vote for Trump because

612
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 5: he has to stay out of jail, and more saying

613
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 5: consider someone else. If you're Democrats, consider someone else. Because

614
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 5: of this issue that has been very energizing and salient.

615
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 3: Before I was in.

616
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 5: Iowa, I was in Ohio, and I think that was

617
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 5: my big takeaway. I've covered repro for ten years and

618
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 5: it's always been an issue that I've felt never got

619
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 5: the credit that it was due in terms of the

620
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 5: ways that it could animate voters. I really am someone

621
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 5: who doesn't want to underestimate the power of women and

622
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 5: people who are allies to women in continuing to be

623
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 5: angry about this because female rings you such a motivator.

624
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 5: So there's that which which percolates completely outside the Trump stuff,

625
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 5: like outside the Iowa State Fair all of that. But

626
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 5: like that's royling for the general. That's not a now problem.

627
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 5: That's a future problem. It has nothing to do with

628
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 5: the legal stuff.

629
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: Yes, oh exactly. And I think and I think I

630
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: agree with you, and I think it's been wildly underestimated

631
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: because it's a quote unquote women's issue. But I think

632
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: it's going to bite them, and well deserved. I might add,

633
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: as I am on the opinion side, you do not

634
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: have to say anything, but I do think it's it's

635
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: a real problem for them.

636
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 5: But I also think the primary point that you made

637
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 5: right candidate recruitment has been an issue over the course

638
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 5: of the last few midterms. I think, to go back again,

639
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 5: Georgia is the place of the day, But I think

640
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 5: about brschel Walker and the ways that Donald Trump has

641
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 5: meddled in primaries to get his person to the front

642
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 5: of the Republican pact, and then that didn't always work out.

643
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 3: I mean, you look in Arizona.

644
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 5: With the Lake Master, right, And it's why the electability

645
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 5: argument is actually a good argument for any candidate not

646
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 5: named Trump. We saw DeSantis kind of toy with this

647
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 5: a little bit too, the idea that Republicans have not

648
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 5: been winning in the Trump era when Trump himself is

649
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 5: not directly on the ballot, and even then and even

650
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 5: then right to sixteen of course being the outlier at

651
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 5: least by Electoral College standards, But the electability argument is

652
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 5: the salient one, and in part because of the primary

653
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 5: problems of running in Republican primaries.

654
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because it's like, we do have this map.

655
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: So one of the things about twenty four is it's

656
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: a very bad I'm allowed to say is because it's

657
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: true bad Senate map for Democrats, right, it's kind of terrifying.

658
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: They really need to keep as many seats as possible,

659
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: and there's West Virginia and Montana and Ohio is share Brown.

660
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: But I think it is interesting, like when you think

661
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: about this map and then you think about twenty two

662
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: and twenty Trump being on the ballot likely, and again,

663
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: we don't want to predict the future because who the

664
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: fuck knows. It's such a great king curse because we're

665
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: not on TV. It's such a volatile time in American politics,

666
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: and we saw this with the Ohio vote right with

667
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: the ballot initiative. Though ballot it's hard to extrapolate ballot

668
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: initiatives to voting because there's not exact continuity. But I

669
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: do think share Brown is feeling a lot better.

670
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: I think you have to.

671
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: I look at this Senate maps, and look, Democrats say

672
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 5: this to me all the time.

673
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: They say it's a bad map for them.

674
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 5: I mean, it's just objectively true because they have so

675
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 5: many places to play defense, whether it's the rhetoric states

676
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 5: that you're looking at, like Montana or Ohio where Brown

677
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 5: and Tester I covered their reelection bids last cycle. They

678
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 5: have very strong in state brands. I think that helped

679
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 5: them in eighteen and will help them again now, But

680
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 5: even look at places like Nevada, where you've brought Jackman

681
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 5: Rosen playing defense Manson, who has always had weird reelection

682
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 5: bid simply because he's a Democrat in a sea of red.

683
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 5: I mean, we'll see what he ends up doing, but

684
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 5: certainly that's going to be a weird race to watch.

685
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 5: But it's just that they have to pray. We've been

686
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 5: so many in so many places.

687
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's it's a rough map. But do you

688
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: think that Mansion will run for reelection?

689
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 5: You know, it's so hard to predict Mansion, especially because

690
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 5: right now he's playing this tees game on two fronts.

691
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 3: He's playing the tees game on.

692
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 5: West Virginia Senate, and he's also playing the tees game

693
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 5: on some kind of potential no labels the presidential run.

694
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: I don't know who that's for, but.

695
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 5: I take the groan as the person who was sitting

696
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 5: outside of his office with a camera just waiting during

697
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 5: Build Back Better and then the Inflation Reduction Act and all.

698
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 3: Of the month in between.

699
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 5: But Mansion is, though I've heard people say what they

700
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 5: will about it, he is someone knows how to stay

701
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 5: in the spotlight and leverage his power, and he knows

702
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 5: that he has power right now, and you've seen the

703
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 5: fruits of that in multiple pieces of legislation over the

704
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 5: course of the last two years. And so there's no

705
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 5: reason that I would think that he's not going to

706
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 5: continue to leverage this weird will I run for president?

707
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 5: Will I run in the Senate race? Will I not

708
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,800
Speaker 5: run at all? He's going to leverage that until he

709
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 5: can't anymore.

710
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: So let me ask you a question about that. It

711
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 1: definitely seems like he's good at capturing attention and power.

712
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: It's very unfair for me to ask you to predict

713
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: the future.

714
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: Well, they said, I wreck my crystal ball in.

715
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: DC, right, and if we can give with the toothpaste,

716
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: if we can game this out. This is more of

717
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: a broader question about no labels. I would say there's

718
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: a lot of anxiety about no labels going in and

719
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: you know, being the four points that gives this selection

720
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: to Donald Trump. I mean, does it seem like this

721
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: anxiety is well founded?

722
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 5: I think when you play a game of margins, every

723
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 5: vote count, you just have to look at the ways

724
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 5: that the states swung both in sixteen and in twenty.

725
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 5: I mean, we watched the ways that third parties made

726
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 5: it harder for the two proper parties in whatever the

727
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 5: way that they wanted their turnout models to look. And

728
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 5: I think that for Democrats who want to see a

729
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 5: Democrat come out, there's a reason to be concerned. I

730
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: don't know that these third party runs ever function as

731
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 5: cleanly as you know, politicos might want to think, oh,

732
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 5: it's all going to steal from Democrats, it's all going

733
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 5: to steal from republic. We don't know where those votes

734
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 5: they're going to come from, but we do know that

735
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 5: it steals goats away from the two major parties.

736
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: I don't mean steals, I mean these people have a

737
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: right to be on the ballot.

738
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: But I do think that if you're looking at a

739
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 5: two party system, and that's how most of the country

740
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 5: looks at politics, Yeah, when you play a game of margins,

741
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 5: it matters who's splitting that ballot up.

742
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly in Iowa, just to get back to Iowa

743
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: for a second, because you are there, God help you.

744
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: For how long have you even been there?

745
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 5: I've been there for five days, and you know what

746
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 5: my goal to myself was on my last day, I

747
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 5: got my Friday Oreo.

748
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 3: So I'm doing that today.

749
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: Oh good, good, good sense, just delightful. Trump is in

750
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: much better shape in Iowa than he was last time.

751
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: Two seconds on that.

752
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: He's the front runner of the party. If she wasn't,

753
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 3: then he wouldn't be.

754
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: He has a real team this time.

755
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 5: He does, and he's not putting it together in a

756
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 5: shoe string fashion like he did in fifteen and sixteen.

757
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: I was there for that.

758
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 5: They had a competent team who knew Iowa, but it

759
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,240
Speaker 5: was still putting the plane together while they were hurting

760
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 5: through the air at warp speed in that cycle. Yeah,

761
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 5: you have the benefit of having done this before. I

762
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 5: think that Trump just has the benefit of being a

763
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 5: former president right now. Like, of course he is looking

764
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 5: good in a place like Iowa. Definitely, of course he's

765
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 5: looking good in a place like New Hampshire that was

766
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 5: always a friendly.

767
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 3: Place to him.

768
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 5: In theory, he's not the right candidate for Iowa because

769
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 5: of the way that the states he was more conservative.

770
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 5: But no one else is mounting a challenge, and you

771
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 5: can't vote for someone else if someone else isn't really

772
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,800
Speaker 5: making themselves a parent.

773
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 1: Ali Vitally, thank you so much. This is so interesting.

774
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: I hope you'll come back.

775
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. I will definitely come back, and

776
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 5: I will bring more buttercawfec.

777
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: Hi. It's Molly and I am wildly excited that for

778
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: the first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to

779
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: right now, is going to have merch for sale over

780
00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. You can now buy shirts, hats, hoodies,

781
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: and toe bags with our incredible designs. We've heard your

782
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Speaker 1: cries to spread the word about our podcast and get

783
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,840
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784
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,640
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Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. Thanks for your support.

786
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: Carolyn Kitchener covers abortion for the Washington Post. Welcome to

787
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: Fast Politics, Karen.

788
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me Li.

789
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: You are on the abortion beat. It's so incredibly depressing.

790
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,320
Speaker 1: It's not even the abortion beat. It's the not abortion beat, right.

791
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 3: That's true.

792
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 6: I spend almost well when I'm not in DC. I'm

793
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 6: never in places where you can get abortions. I'm always

794
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 6: in places where you can.

795
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: So let's talk about what the landscape looks like right now,

796
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: because it's been a little more than a year, and

797
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: what does the landscape look like.

798
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 6: We've sort of settled into this place where it's over

799
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 6: a dozen states. It's been over a dozen states for

800
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 6: a while now, where you know, almost all abortions are banned,

801
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 6: and you know, it's just been feeling like, you know,

802
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 6: every couple months it's another one. We just had Iowa

803
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 6: wipe out most abortion access, and now I think everybody

804
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 6: is looking to Florida. There's a big Supreme Court case

805
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 6: that is going to determine the future of abortion access

806
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 6: in Florida. That's in early September, and that would be

807
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 6: the abortion band to date that affects the most people nationwide.

808
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: One of the pieces that you wrote about was these

809
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: teen parents two years later couldn't have an abortion. We're

810
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of pieces. Yesterday there was a big

811
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: piece in Time magazine about a seventh grader who had

812
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: a child. This is sort of the future that a

813
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: lot of these anti choice people want. I mean, what

814
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 1: does it look like on the ground.

815
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 3: This particular story.

816
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 6: I had never done this before, but I revisited a

817
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 6: young woman that I wrote about a year ago because

818
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 6: so much time has passed. So I wrote about her

819
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 6: a year ago. Three months after she had twins as

820
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 6: a result of the Texas abortion ban, which now I

821
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 6: mean we're coming up on two years since Texas became

822
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 6: the first state to ban most abortions. That was about

823
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 6: nine months before rofell. So, you know, I think through her,

824
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 6: I was really interested in revisiting her because you can

825
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 6: really see quite a bit of time down the line.

826
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 6: What does life look like? And you know the answer

827
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 6: is that life for her is really hard.

828
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let me ask you the thing that I'm

829
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: struck by with a lot of this abortion coverage, and

830
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you have the same experience, and if not,

831
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: why not what I had expected? When you know, I

832
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 1: was raised by a second wave from us. It was

833
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: obsessed with the fact that they had gotten us a choice.

834
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean obsessed. And she said, you know, if you

835
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: lose choice, you have women trying to do abortions on

836
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: themselves and they die. I'm sure that is some percentage

837
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: of what's happened. But a lot of the stories we're

838
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: reading or not about that, they're about pregnant women who

839
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: cannot get treated. Can you talk a little bit about that.

840
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 6: I think that there was a lot of retrospective thinking

841
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 6: zooming out that was done, you know, a year after Roechell,

842
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 6: and a lot of sort of trying to crunch the

843
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 6: numbers and see, you know, how many abortions are still

844
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 6: happening and how many are not happening, And really the

845
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 6: answer there is that it's extremely difficult to know because

846
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 6: self managed abortion and by that I mean mostly abortion

847
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 6: pills have become like such a massive thing that was

848
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 6: not the case before Roe. Right, we just have this

849
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 6: huge you know, what I think is is well, I

850
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 6: mean we know, actually know, we know that these are

851
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 6: numbering in the tens of thousands, but people just going

852
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 6: going online and ordering pills and doing their abortions safely

853
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 6: at home, and so you know, it is hard to

854
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 6: know just how many people are not able to access

855
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 6: it at all. Which is why I think those stories

856
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 6: are so important because we know that that we know

857
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 6: that not everybody knows what AID access is. You know,

858
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 6: for listeners, that's like the kind of the biggest online

859
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 6: place to get abortion pills.

860
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 3: But you know, a lot of people don't know that.

861
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: But we're seeing a lot of like lawsuits and litigation

862
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: from women for whom they never thought the end of

863
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: ROW would affect them.

864
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.

865
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 6: I mean we're seeing, you know, in Texas, the big

866
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 6: lawsuit in Texas, it's I believe it's over a dozen

867
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 6: women who, you know, all of who like had pregnancies

868
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 6: that they really wanted, you know, they were excited to

869
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 6: have a baby, but they had some kind of pregnancy complication,

870
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 6: and for all of them it was, well, it was

871
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 6: either some kind of pregnancy complication that affected their own

872
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 6: health or it was you know, something was very wrong

873
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 6: with the baby. Before Roe, the standard for treatment that

874
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 6: they would have received, would have been offered to them

875
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 6: was an abortion. In all of these cases, that was

876
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 6: just taken off the table. So you know, you had

877
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 6: these these women bringing this incredibly just I mean, giving

878
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 6: these incredibly powerful testimonies, you know, a Texas courthouse about

879
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 6: you know, the way that these laws absolutely put.

880
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: Them in danger, grave danger in many cases.

881
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing I'm struck by is, like, clearly the

882
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: reason that Roe was decided so broadly in nineteen seventy three.

883
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: Obviously it was because of women dying leading to death,

884
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, because of they did their own abortions. But

885
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: I also think there's like a larger medical issue of

886
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: doctors who you know. I mean, we've interviewed a lot

887
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: of doctors on this podcast. We've I have talked to

888
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: my own guynecologists who's involved in Physicians for reproductive health,

889
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of anxiety. I mean, obviously not

890
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: for the BLUESDAID doctors and not for these special trained

891
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: doctors that are coming into planned parenthood to the very

892
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: few clinics that are still exist in the rest of

893
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: the country, but there's anxiety for normal you know, obgyns

894
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: who signed up to deliver babies and not to make

895
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: every medical choice a question of whether or not they

896
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: were going to lose their license. Oh.

897
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 6: Absolutely, It's it's terrifying. I talked to a lot of

898
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 6: obigu i n's that are in that position, and you know,

899
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 6: in many cases obiguis that feel just I mean many

900
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 6: that are considering moving because they just feel so disheartened

901
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 6: and you know, frankly depressed in some cases that they

902
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 6: can't provide the care that they you know, they feel

903
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 6: that they sign up to give.

904
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: And I also wonder what it looks like a country

905
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: that has such terrible problems with maternal fetal health. I mean,

906
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: for a wealthy country, we have the kind of maternal

907
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: fetal health you don't usually see in a wealthy country.

908
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: And then for black women it's several magnitudes of mortality

909
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,959
Speaker 1: more than for white women. Right, So I just wonder

910
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: if you could talk about that.

911
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, that is the thing to watch over

912
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 6: the coming year and the years to come. I mean,

913
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 6: the you know, over a dozen states that have you know,

914
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 6: near total abortion bands in effect, almost all of them

915
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 6: are on the list of like top ten worse states

916
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 6: from maternal mortality. There's just an incredibly there's an incredible

917
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 6: overlap there. As a journalist, that's going to be probably

918
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,399
Speaker 6: the top thing that I'm going to be watching as

919
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 6: time goes by. What is happening to those numbers. You know,

920
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 6: unfortunately there's often kind of a lag in those numbers,

921
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 6: but people really need to pay attention to that.

922
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, there's definitely a groundswell of voters are

923
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: not happy with these fans. Again, this is not the

924
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,959
Speaker 1: first time Republicans of voters are not seeing eye to eye.

925
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,879
Speaker 1: I don't see a world where Republican politicians are going

926
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: to change their you know, they're going hard on abortion.

927
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: And I think Florida is a great example, with Ron DeSantis,

928
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: who had a more reasonable bell and then because it

929
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: was running for president, tightened it up. Can you talk

930
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: about that, Yeah, absolutely.

931
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 6: I Mean what happened with DeSantis and Florida in particular,

932
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 6: I think just shows how between a rock and a

933
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 6: hard place these Republican politicians are finding themselves on this issue.

934
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 6: Because DeSantis, I mean, he went out and he backed

935
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 6: the six week Man. It was very unclear to me

936
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 6: for a very long time whether he was going to

937
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 6: do that, but then he decided. He you know, he

938
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 6: met with all these anti abortion advicates and he decided

939
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,839
Speaker 6: to do it. But the way that he did it

940
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 6: was I think really revealing. He did it at like

941
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 6: it was like it was like eleven o'clock at night.

942
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 6: There was no big like media thing. They took one

943
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 6: picture and he put it on Twitter, you know, late

944
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 6: late at night, and I think, like, I think that's

945
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 6: really telling, especially in compared to the year before when

946
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 6: he signed the fifteen Week Band. He did this huge,

947
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 6: you know party at this church and everybody was invited

948
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 6: and there were all these treatures and videos and and

949
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 6: this time, I mean, he I signed this bill and

950
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 6: then the next day he went to speak at Liberty University,

951
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 6: which is like his people, yeah, extremely extremely religious and

952
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 6: conservative and very very you know, anti abortion, and he

953
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 6: didn't even bring it up the fact that, you know,

954
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 6: just the day before he had done this.

955
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: So I just think that's so taling.

956
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 6: I think a lot of them are really struggling with

957
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 6: how to you know, both like, do what the base,

958
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 6: the sort of Republican base wants and these what these

959
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 6: anti abortion activists are pushing them to do, but also

960
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 6: reckoning with the fact that the vast majority of people,

961
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 6: the vast majority of voters don't want these policies.

962
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: The anti choice activists, they seem insatiable, they see, you know,

963
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: like there is for them. In my sense of the

964
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: reporting I've read, they are not happy with the six

965
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: week band. They are not happy with it. I mean

966
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: they really want to go for brogue.

967
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: I think that's right. I mean, they really are you know.

968
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 6: They're also kind of I think, starting to zero in on,

969
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 6: you know, pills that people are able to order, Like

970
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 6: they know, they're realizing that, you know, the bands aren't

971
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 6: having quite the effects that they imagine that they would,

972
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 6: the magnitude of the effect that they thought that they

973
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 6: would because you know, people are you know a lot

974
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 6: of people, certainly not everyone, but a lot of people

975
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 6: are able to travel out of state or they're able

976
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 6: to go online and order pills, and they're really frustrated

977
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 6: by that, and they do want to go further.

978
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: Right, what I think is pretty interesting and I'm hoping

979
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 1: we could talk about this for a second, is Judge Matthew,

980
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: because Marek is is judge in Texas. He is if

981
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: you take a case up in this particular part of Texas,

982
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 1: he's the only judge who will get He is a

983
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: mega judge put in by Trump, very ideological, very very ideological,

984
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: wants to take the pills off the market. Talk to

985
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: us about where we are with that.

986
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 6: Well, we're kind of waiting for the Supreme Court to

987
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 6: see if they're going to do sort of a full

988
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 6: review of that case. So right now, you know, Matthew,

989
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 6: I think it was what it was back in back

990
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 6: in February, cos Merik did withdraw he he attempted to

991
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 6: withdraw you know, FDA approval of this key abortion drug

992
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 6: of mefi pristone, and you know, then it went up

993
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 6: to the Fifth Circuit, it ended up at the Supreme Court,

994
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court, you know, basically, you know, temporarily stopped

995
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 6: it in its tracks. And so you know, MEPhI pristone

996
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 6: is still widely available in states where abortion is legal,

997
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 6: but it's not the end of the road for that case.

998
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,919
Speaker 6: So I think a lot of anti abortion activists got

999
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,959
Speaker 6: very excited by how are that effort went. I mean,

1000
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 6: when that case was filed. I mean legal experts, even

1001
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 6: you know, really conservative anti abortion experts that I spoke with,

1002
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 6: they did this, you know, on not putting their names

1003
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 6: to it, but you know, in conversations they would say, like,

1004
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 6: that's crazy. You know, that kind of case is just

1005
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 6: kind of nuts. But it went somewhere like it, you know,

1006
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 6: they they found a judge that was willing to kind

1007
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 6: of green light that. And so I do think that,

1008
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 6: you know, even if this particular case kind of flounders

1009
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 6: and doesn't go anywhere else, I do expect that we

1010
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 6: will see more efforts along these lines to kind of

1011
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 6: take a swing at particularly abortion pills on a national level.

1012
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 6: I think anti abortion activists are really realizing what a

1013
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 6: different world this is in pre row right.

1014
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 1: It's interesting, though, like with the abortion pills, because it

1015
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: opens the door to so many FDA problems, right, and

1016
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: it is absolutely just you know, once you start deciding

1017
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: that the drugs you don't like do things you don't like,

1018
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 1: and so you want to take them off the market.

1019
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: I mean pharmaceutical companies, which if last time I checked,

1020
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: we're sort of one of the major you know, rulers

1021
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: of this country and one of the larger benefactors of politicians.

1022
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you're going to run into You're going to

1023
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: run smack into religion versus capitalism big time here.

1024
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, I mean a lot of people who, you know,

1025
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 6: people who don't usually weigh in on abortion issues around

1026
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,919
Speaker 6: the Casmeric case were like, you know, they were really

1027
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 6: making their voices heard and saying like, look, this does

1028
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 6: not stop with abortion, and this is really opening as

1029
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 6: sort of dangerous canaisforms.

1030
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it does feel like a Pandora's box

1031
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: right once you start saying this, I don't like what

1032
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: this does? You know, were you going to stop antidepress

1033
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: and so you're going to stop right alan, You're going

1034
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: to stop I mean cholesterol drugs. I mean, it is

1035
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: such an insane place to go. So right now we

1036
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: have a sort of like America is basically right states

1037
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: where you can get abortions, states where you can't get abortions,

1038
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: and then miles and miles and miles between them. If

1039
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: you live in Florida, Now, how far do you have

1040
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: to drive to get an abortion?

1041
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 6: Well, Florida right now is at fifteen weeks, so it's

1042
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 6: about like ninety to ninety five percent of abortions can

1043
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 6: still happen there. So right now, the farthest that you

1044
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 6: can get from a legal abortion in the United States

1045
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 6: is South Texas. But if Florida goes dark, then I

1046
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 6: mean it's just it's it's really hard to wrap your

1047
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 6: mind around. Just it would completely upend the landscape right now.

1048
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 6: I mean, I think there's sort of a tentative equilibrium

1049
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 6: that has been reached where, you know, the clinics that

1050
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 6: I'm talking to in North Carolina and Illinois, which are

1051
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 6: some of the big access points, like they are struggling

1052
00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 6: to meet demand, really struggling to meet demand, but they

1053
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 6: are they are hanging on, you know, they're they're sort

1054
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 6: of they're they're they're figuring out ways to do it.

1055
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 6: But if you insert I mean Florida, I think I

1056
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 6: said this, but on a on a you know, average year,

1057
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 6: it's eighty thousand abortions that take place in Florida. You know,

1058
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 6: it's the third most populous state. So if you kind

1059
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 6: of add those eighty thousand two or some number of

1060
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 6: that eighty thousand, because it would be a six week

1061
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 6: band if you add that to you know, all of

1062
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 6: these places that are just barely you know, making it.

1063
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 6: It's just hard to see where people would go.

1064
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I don't think they care. So interesting. I

1065
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: hope you will come back.

1066
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 3: I would love to come back.

1067
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 6: Thank you, Anna, thanks for caring about this issue.

1068
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 4: They're all pect Jesse Cannon, Molly jung Fast, mister trub

1069
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 4: Peece of having a rough week. So he claims he's

1070
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 4: got big claims coming Monday. And we know how on

1071
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 4: scar schedule he usually is for things. He's very good

1072
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 4: at that.

1073
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: So this is an incredible little bit of sorcery that

1074
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: we haven't seen since season one of The Trump Show.

1075
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: He's going to show us this irrefutable evidence that the

1076
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: twenty twenty election was stolen. This is a page right

1077
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: out of the My Pillow playbook. Right, they're going to

1078
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: show us, They're going to prove it. You'll remember that

1079
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: My pillow guy did a lot of events that showed

1080
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: us that the election was stolen, except that he couldn't

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00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,760
Speaker 1: prove any of it because none of it was true.

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00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: So mister Trump is going to do that in New

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00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: Jersey and his golf club. The world weights and waits

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00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: and waits and waits. That's it for this episode of

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00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to

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00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,319
Speaker 1: hear the best minds in politics makes sense of all

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00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,919
Speaker 1: this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please send

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00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: it to a friend and keep the conversation going. And again,

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00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,240
Speaker 1: thanks for listening.

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Speaker 6: Two