Speaker 1: Hey everyone, It's Jay Sheddy and I'm thrilled to announce
Speaker 1: my podcast tour. For the first time ever, you can
Speaker 1: experience on purpose in person. Join me in a city
Speaker 1: near you for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It
Speaker 1: could be a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO
Speaker 1: or business leader. We'll dive into experiences designed to experience growth,
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Speaker 1: for a private Q and a intimate meditation and a
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Speaker 1: Head to Jaysheddy, dop Me Forward Slash Tour and get
Speaker 1: yours today.
Speaker 2: God, I've been through so many things that at this
Speaker 2: point I would rather not feel than feel, because feeling
Speaker 2: is too much for me to handle.
Speaker 3: All right, We're right, Hi, am Kloet Kradashi.
Speaker 1: Tony Kardash, and everybody clothe Kodash.
Speaker 2: There would be times that I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: even want to go out to the grocery store because
Speaker 2: I feel like I know what they're thinking about me.
Speaker 2: And that was scary to me because I've never been
Speaker 2: in a dark place for that long.
Speaker 1: You've always taken care of others. Have you discovered anything
Speaker 1: about why you've seen yourself take on that role in
Speaker 1: so many relationships in your world? How do you even
Speaker 1: find the courage to trust again? The number one health
Speaker 1: and Wellness podcast.
Speaker 3: Jay Shetty, Jay Sheddy Only J.
Speaker 1: Shetty Chloe, Welcome back to On Purpose.
Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1: You came on the podcast in twenty nineteen. Okay, that's crazy,
Speaker 1: which is six years ago. Yeah, we just launched at
Speaker 1: the beginning of that year, and you were such an
Speaker 1: important part of helping the show get to where it
Speaker 1: is today.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: So the kind words you were just saying to me
Speaker 1: a moment ago about the show are so much because
Speaker 1: of you. Well, thank you, And I'm so grateful to you.
Speaker 1: Your beautiful and wonderful family who've just been so kind
Speaker 1: to me over the years, your mom who I adore,
Speaker 1: Kendall and Kim who've both been amazing guests on the show,
Speaker 1: and people have got to spend time with offscreen as well,
Speaker 1: And it's just you've all been so wonderful to me.
Speaker 1: So I'm deeply grateful and deeply touched well love.
Speaker 2: We all adore you, we really really do. And you
Speaker 2: just have this energy about you that everyone feels safe
Speaker 2: and talking with you, and that's a testament to the
Speaker 2: success of your podcast obviously, but everything that you do,
Speaker 2: it's so from the intensity of your soul and it's
Speaker 2: beautiful and you don't even realize that you're being recorded
Speaker 2: when talking with you. So yes, I'm so honored to
Speaker 2: be asked to be here again.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And the last time we were together, we
Speaker 1: were on your podcast, Yes, which I'm so excited about.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to talk more about it.
Speaker 2: I cannot even believe that you Yes, I am so
Speaker 2: grateful that you agreed to do that, but were my
Speaker 2: second guest, and the fact that you did that and
Speaker 2: did it just sure of course, like you never asked questions.
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is brand new, we've never launched or
Speaker 2: aired yet.
Speaker 3: Thank you. It was. You're so generous and so kind.
Speaker 1: No, I loved it. It was so much fun speaking
Speaker 1: to you and you using your platform to talk about
Speaker 1: important topics and themes and vulnerability. And then my favorite
Speaker 1: thing is we were in India just around this like
Speaker 1: kind of coming around this time last year, yes, and
Speaker 1: being with you in India and getting to take you
Speaker 1: to the monastery that I stayed at for.
Speaker 3: Some time, and what an experience.
Speaker 1: It's so beautiful to have that with you, and so
Speaker 1: thank you for letting me have that experience with you
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: And I don't know when this airs, but the India
Speaker 2: episode for us, I think airs next week, so people
Speaker 2: are going to get to see that insight and see
Speaker 2: a little bit of where you practiced, and just what
Speaker 2: a beautiful experience that was for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you both were so gracious and kind and curious,
Speaker 1: and I was so in awe of just how wonderfully
Speaker 1: respectful and thoughtful and thank you And the fact that
Speaker 1: we were on a crazy schedule at a crazy wedding. Yes,
Speaker 1: and you guys somehow managed to wake up to go
Speaker 1: to a temple. It's pretty impressive.
Speaker 2: That was such We could not miss that opportunity, especially
Speaker 2: to go with you, I mean to where you practice.
Speaker 2: I mean that still, that's a pinch me moment.
Speaker 1: The well, Chloe, this week on the episode when we're
Speaker 1: recording this, at least it's your fortieth birthday and that
Speaker 1: was soon after you got back from India last year. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you, like, what it felt
Speaker 1: like turning forty.
Speaker 2: I know so many people dread turning forty or just
Speaker 2: getting older, and I am the complete opposite. I probably
Speaker 2: talked about my excitement in turning forty for at least
Speaker 2: three years prior to turning forty. You know, my thirties
Speaker 2: were challenging for me, as I really do think when
Speaker 2: I reflect back, that they are challenging for most people.
Speaker 2: I think your thirties is that, especially for women, because
Speaker 2: that's sort of when people feel like, oh, their biological
Speaker 2: clock is ticking, they should be married or have kids
Speaker 2: by this age. And the truth is people are getting
Speaker 2: married a little later, they are having kids later in life,
Speaker 2: and a lot of women are focusing on what their
Speaker 2: careers should be and so they're sort of putting the
Speaker 2: family stuff on the back burner.
Speaker 3: At least that's what I've noticed.
Speaker 2: And for me, I had my kids, I had not
Speaker 2: so many great relationships in my thirties and in my
Speaker 2: younger twenties, but a lot of career stuff wasn't going
Speaker 2: the way that I envisioned and hoped and planned, and
Speaker 2: I really just wanted to get out of my thirties,
Speaker 2: I was like, I feel good. I have my kids
Speaker 2: and that's my wonderful, beautiful takeaway. And still I also
Speaker 2: do believe that any of those experiences, they really are formative,
Speaker 2: and no matter how traumatic and horrible they are, you
Speaker 2: don't think that in the moment, but later on you
Speaker 2: do get to self reflect and be like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: needed that for some reason. But going into my forties,
Speaker 2: I was skipping and leaping and hopping into them.
Speaker 1: How did you imagine your forties were going to look
Speaker 1: when you were younger, and now that you're moving into them,
Speaker 1: How close are they? How different are those visions?
Speaker 2: So I don't know if you've ever seen this meme,
Speaker 2: but it's a meme of the Golden Girls, and I
Speaker 2: think those ladies were in their forties or early fifties
Speaker 2: when they're ushered away somewhere in Florida, you know, have
Speaker 2: to live together because they're so old, and then they
Speaker 2: do side by sides with like a bunch of women
Speaker 2: in their forties now beautiful women, and the comparison, you're like,
Speaker 2: why was I so afraid? But the representation that we
Speaker 2: had when we were younger was very different than what
Speaker 2: the forties. Are we're fifties now? I mean, Gabrielle Union.
Speaker 2: I don't exactly know how old everybody is, but Jennifer Lopez,
Speaker 2: you see all of these gorgeous women and you're like, wait,
Speaker 2: I think their forties fifties?
Speaker 3: What am I afraid of?
Speaker 2: And it's not so much even about the esthetic. It's
Speaker 2: the lifeliness that these women and the passion that these
Speaker 2: women have for life that you're like, that doesn't seem
Speaker 2: so bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're so right what you just said
Speaker 1: now about how everyone has a tough thirties to forties.
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. When you're going in your
Speaker 1: twenties to thirties, you have a really high expectation and
Speaker 1: then you kind of get brought down to reality. I
Speaker 1: think everyone has a tougher twenties than they imagined. You're
Speaker 1: having the pressure, the pressure of what it should be,
Speaker 1: the pressure of starting work, the pressure of a relationship.
Speaker 2: But you put these kids in college and they're supposed
Speaker 2: to what is your major? What is your minor? And
Speaker 2: then if you go awry from that when you graduate,
Speaker 2: it's like, then what did I pay for? But how
Speaker 2: many times have you changed your mind? About something in life, right,
Speaker 2: and so have I. So yes, I believe in college.
Speaker 2: I believe in that if that's the right step for you.
Speaker 2: But I also think it's people need to know how
Speaker 2: okay it is to not necessarily know what you want
Speaker 2: to do when you're twenty years old.
Speaker 1: Absolutely such great advice. I mean I look at it.
Speaker 1: In my twenties, I first became a monk. I then
Speaker 1: left and worked in consulting, and then left and did media,
Speaker 1: and then since then I've done video content, podcast, wrote books. Right,
Speaker 1: just things that I would never have imagined. If someone
Speaker 1: told me at eighteen, Jay, this is what your life's
Speaker 1: going to look like, I wouldn't leave them. And I
Speaker 1: think something you said that was really important that when
Speaker 1: you get into your thirties there's almost like this grounding
Speaker 1: effect as well, where you start to ask yourself what
Speaker 1: do I really want in life? But as you get
Speaker 1: into your forties, you're almost living that of like what's
Speaker 1: really important? What really is my priority? Am I clear
Speaker 1: about what I want? Whereas in your twenties you don't know,
Speaker 1: and how could you?
Speaker 3: You don't know?
Speaker 2: And you also have that arrogance in your twenties that
Speaker 2: no one can tell you anything, but people have to
Speaker 2: go through that, like I don't. I get it, And
Speaker 2: I also get now when adults were like they sort
Speaker 2: of roll their eyes at somebody in their twenties, and
Speaker 2: it's rare that most people in that age are so
Speaker 2: definitive at what they want to do and if they
Speaker 2: are great, and that is just this old soulness in them,
Speaker 2: I would say. But also when i've I've only been
Speaker 2: in my forties for a few months, but it's crazy
Speaker 2: how quickly that you're sort of like you feel so
Speaker 2: solid in who you are or the things that maybe
Speaker 2: made you insecure or doubt yourself, you sort of just
Speaker 2: let it go. And I don't know what that switch
Speaker 2: exactly is. I just know that it's that grounding term
Speaker 2: that you said, you feel so solid within yourself and
Speaker 2: you're like, it's okay, and I know life is going
Speaker 2: to work out. I know everything is going to come
Speaker 2: how I envision it, because I have that drive and
Speaker 2: desire to. But I've stopped limiting myself to it had
Speaker 2: to be done before I turned forty. When I was younger,
Speaker 2: society definitely put on me, or not just me. I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people but now life expectancy is longer.
Speaker 2: I think we prioritize our health from within so much more,
Speaker 2: and people realize, Okay, it's not all about just having
Speaker 2: babies and getting married by the time you're twenty three
Speaker 2: and then just coasting the rest or figuring it out. Now,
Speaker 2: it's like, let's figure out what we really want at
Speaker 2: our core and then the rest will sort of unfold.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you say? Because I feel like we
Speaker 1: have such an amazing community of young women and women
Speaker 1: who listen to this show, and so many of them,
Speaker 1: I know, are thinking, I'm thirty years old, I'm not married,
Speaker 1: there's so much pressure, I'm not in a serious relationship.
Speaker 1: What words of advice, wisdom, insight, or lessons would you
Speaker 1: share with them in that period of their life where
Speaker 1: the societal pressure, the parental pressure, the personal pressure, the
Speaker 1: pressure of what's happening all around them on Instagram, TikTok,
Speaker 1: social media. How should they think about navigating that?
Speaker 2: Number one is something I had to learn myself. As
Speaker 2: comparison as the Thief of Joy. It takes everything out
Speaker 2: of anything that you're doing if you're constantly comparing what
Speaker 2: you're doing to somebody else because somebody else is only
Speaker 2: showing you their highlight reel. Anyway, we have to remember
Speaker 2: that what we're doing is probably someone's looking at us
Speaker 2: and they're like, damn, that's an amazing highlight reel, Like
Speaker 2: I want that. But we're so conditioned now to constantly
Speaker 2: want more and more, never be satisfied. That makes me
Speaker 2: sad for my kids, and I always try. I have
Speaker 2: so many nieces and nephews, and three of them are
Speaker 2: the exact same age. It's my daughter and Kylie's daughter
Speaker 2: and Kim's daughter, and sometimes that's challenging because they each
Speaker 2: want the same thing all the time. And I sort
Speaker 2: of like that because I like to say, not just
Speaker 2: because someone has that doesn't mean you get to have that.
Speaker 2: And those are smaller lessons, but you learn that later
Speaker 2: in life so much bigger. And you can be inspired
Speaker 2: by others or motivated by others, but the jealousy or
Speaker 2: the comparison is something that we or I have had
Speaker 2: to even retrain my brain to not always look at
Speaker 2: someone and be like, well, why don't I have that?
Speaker 3: Or how can I get?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: It should be more from a motivational way as opposed
Speaker 2: to an envious way. But I also think, do you
Speaker 2: want to be married and have kids because that's what
Speaker 2: you were taught as a kid that you're supposed to do.
Speaker 2: Do you want that and a career? And which one
Speaker 2: do you want to have come first? And do you
Speaker 2: not want a career? And do you just want to
Speaker 2: be a mother?
Speaker 3: Like those?
Speaker 2: Whatever the answer is is all okay, because it's your life.
Speaker 2: But sometimes I think that we live a life so
Speaker 2: much for other people and we forget to check in
Speaker 2: with ourselves. And it's okay if you had a desire
Speaker 2: in your twenties and now you're in your thirties and
Speaker 2: you're like, wait, I actually don't want that anymore and
Speaker 2: I changed my direction, and it's okay to admit that
Speaker 2: to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think You've raised so many important points there.
Speaker 1: One of them that resonates with me is I always
Speaker 1: say to people the only way you can purify envy
Speaker 1: is study. What I mean by that is when you
Speaker 1: study someone's success, you get motivated by it. When you
Speaker 1: envy someone's success, you get demotivated by it because you
Speaker 1: feel it's not for me. I'm not going to get
Speaker 1: that when you study it, when you look at how
Speaker 1: they started when you look at the challenges they've gone through,
Speaker 1: when you look at the ups and the downs, all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you realize you get so much inspiration
Speaker 1: that I can do it too, right, that that person's
Speaker 1: had a very normal human journey. And maybe I just
Speaker 1: don't see that because I'm only seeing the success. I'm
Speaker 1: not seeing the story.
Speaker 2: And I think I get a very interesting take on
Speaker 2: that because I do that with me and my sisters,
Speaker 2: and so when I look at all of my siblings,
Speaker 2: I know so in depthly. Also there's struggles and how
Speaker 2: many companies we've all started that have failed, where so
Speaker 2: many people that you look up to you don't hear
Speaker 2: every little thing and tell they're at the top.
Speaker 3: And then they're.
Speaker 2: Telling you this was how they got here their success,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you're like, okay, but you're here now and
Speaker 2: it still seems unobtainable. But for me, I do get
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky for my positioning because even though I
Speaker 2: see my siblings and I see all their success, now,
Speaker 2: I remember how much stuff we tried to do and
Speaker 2: you know, throw spaghetti on the wall and it just
Speaker 2: didn't stick. But I don't know if outsiders would see
Speaker 2: that looking within our family all the time. I think,
Speaker 2: if you can, you know, go back and google back
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight whatever, you'll be like, oh, they
Speaker 2: did that, and where's that company? And so everyone has
Speaker 2: their failures, but I wouldn't even call them failures.
Speaker 1: What's the biggest lesson you were taking into your forties,
Speaker 1: something that you've been carrying with you into this time.
Speaker 2: I talk to myself a lot, so I like to
Speaker 2: be really intentional, and I like, I understand, and I
Speaker 2: teach my daughter that happiness and positivity and all of
Speaker 2: that is a choice. And so what I like too
Speaker 2: is be very intentional with my days, my jobs, the
Speaker 2: things that I choose to do and spend time on,
Speaker 2: and not in a smug sort of way. But I
Speaker 2: wake up a lot and I'm like, oh, I'm just
Speaker 2: in either a melancholy mood or I'm woke up on
Speaker 2: the wrong side of the bed. I'm not a nice
Speaker 2: person today. And I'll look myself in the mirror and
Speaker 2: I will have a back and forth talk with myself
Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, I'm happy today. I'm choosing happy.
Speaker 2: But so much of that came really when I was
Speaker 2: in my forties. Maybe my last thirty ninth year, because
Speaker 2: I realized how much of a dark cloud I felt
Speaker 2: was surrounding me in my thirties. But yes, things happen
Speaker 2: to me, but it's also my responsibility to choose how
Speaker 2: I respond to those things.
Speaker 3: And I think.
Speaker 2: Because of social media maybe as well, that I let
Speaker 2: so much of the noise make me even sadder or
Speaker 2: make me feel like I was less worthy, less of
Speaker 2: a person, that I needed to be so crumbled and
Speaker 2: embarrassed about what happened to me, where yes I probably
Speaker 2: would have had those feelings, but maybe not as long
Speaker 2: as I did because that narration was going on for
Speaker 2: so long, and so I finally was sort of like,
Speaker 2: screw every dark noise I'm hearing, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: say every day, no, I am worthy. I'm worthy of
Speaker 2: a happy, beautiful, positive day, being intentional in that way.
Speaker 2: And it's funny when I wake my kids up every day,
Speaker 2: I'm like, we're going to have a happy day because
Speaker 2: we choose to have a happy day. But embedding in
Speaker 2: them those small little affirmations. I mean, I'm forty and
Speaker 2: I need it, so you know, I think it's a
Speaker 2: good thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can agree with you more. I always say
Speaker 1: to myself, like, I can't make like the day doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be great to me, but I can make
Speaker 1: the day a great day, right, because they could be
Speaker 1: ups and downs. It could be someone says something, someone
Speaker 1: could mean to me, someone could cut me off in traffic,
Speaker 1: someone could do whatever it may be to me. But
Speaker 1: I get to choose how I respond. I get to
Speaker 1: choose how I react, and it makes such a difference.
Speaker 1: One of the themes in the show this year has
Speaker 1: been all of you talking about sheddings the burdens of
Speaker 1: the past. And I think that's such an interesting thing
Speaker 1: because I think as you get older, you start to
Speaker 1: notice what you've been carrying with you right right, and
Speaker 1: you've had longer to carry it with you, and now
Speaker 1: you're more aware what were some of those things that
Speaker 1: came up for you? And you were like, I think
Speaker 1: these are things that I've been holding on to that
Speaker 1: I need to shed. What are some of those burdens.
Speaker 2: I'm not a victim to this, but I do feel
Speaker 2: like I was in a way victimizing myself. But again,
Speaker 2: it sort of was more from the outside noise. I
Speaker 2: hate that I allowed other people to have that much
Speaker 2: control over the way I viewed myself. But I would
Speaker 2: say just from my past dating history, and a lot
Speaker 2: of them ended in cheating or there was just they
Speaker 2: weren't great situations at the end. But yes, I think
Speaker 2: even in the most private of times, if that happened
Speaker 2: and nobody publicly knew about it, they're still shame. Within
Speaker 2: your family, you feel embarrassed, like how you know, what
Speaker 2: did I do? You always make it about yourself, and
Speaker 2: that's okay because hopefully you will get stronger and reflect
Speaker 2: and not make those same mistakes again. And for me,
Speaker 2: they happened repeatedly, and I was like, okay, this is
Speaker 2: about me. I'm either not paying attention, I'm sweeping something
Speaker 2: under the rug, like I really wanted to be so
Speaker 2: aware of what I was doing and let that go,
Speaker 2: but let the guilt and the shame of that go
Speaker 2: because I quote allowed it to happen more than once.
Speaker 2: And I'm saying that because I didn't allow it to happen.
Speaker 2: But the narrative out there was like, well, you get
Speaker 2: what you get. You know, like I should have known better,
Speaker 2: and yes, I probably should have, but I needed to
Speaker 2: learn that lesson. I know, I carried so much shame
Speaker 2: and guilt where there would be times that I was like,
Speaker 2: I don't even want to go out to the grocery
Speaker 2: store and look at someone in the eyes because I
Speaker 2: feel like I know what they're thinking about me. They
Speaker 2: probably don't know who I am, they probably never heard
Speaker 2: this story. But the shame, this cloud that was I
Speaker 2: felt following me everywhere that I don't know if it
Speaker 2: was even that big to other people, but I definitely
Speaker 2: felt like I was constantly surrounded by a gray cloud.
Speaker 2: I would limit myself from doing a lot of things
Speaker 2: and seeing a lot of people because I was I
Speaker 2: felt such shame where I was like, intentionally, no, I'm
Speaker 2: going to let this go.
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Speaker 1: sure you use the code on purpose. There's so much
Speaker 1: maturity in what you're saying that requires so much and
Speaker 1: something I want to kind of go into with you
Speaker 1: is this idea of how do we take accountability but
Speaker 1: not take full responsibility right it's that idea of like,
Speaker 1: as you said, you can't you can't blame yourself, and
Speaker 1: at the same time, you had to find a way
Speaker 1: to recognize you wanted to make better decisions. And I
Speaker 1: think it's such a fine line because I think we
Speaker 1: go from saying it's not my fault, it's everyone else's fault,
Speaker 1: to the being like, oh, it's all my fault. It's
Speaker 1: all me. I'm the one to blame. I did this
Speaker 1: to myself. How did you find that balance which requires
Speaker 1: so much thoughtfulness and maturity to actually get to that
Speaker 1: place where it's like, I'm going to take accountability to
Speaker 1: change my life, but I'm also going to recognize that
Speaker 1: this happened to me, but it wasn't about me. As
Speaker 1: you said, how do you get to that?
Speaker 2: Well, the interesting part is I think the very first
Speaker 2: time it happened, I didn't do that and that's okay
Speaker 2: because it's done. Yeah, And I also had to forgive
Speaker 2: myself for that. There was a time that I was
Speaker 2: felt very guilty, like why did I even stay? Why
Speaker 2: why am I not forgiving myself? I would blame myself
Speaker 2: for everything.
Speaker 3: And then the.
Speaker 2: Second time, you know, I my surgeate was still pregnant
Speaker 2: with Tatum, and the people didn't know yet that I
Speaker 2: was having Tatum. But I felt such shame that it
Speaker 2: was happening again because I knew, I knew better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as I'm listening to I'm just thinking
Speaker 1: about the amount of people that are probably listening to
Speaker 1: right now, thinking, Chloe, I had that fantasy too, and
Speaker 1: you had the courage, even though at one point, as
Speaker 1: you said, you were kind of why did I stay
Speaker 1: that long or why did I keep doing that? And
Speaker 1: you had to forgive yourself for that. But I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know how to know when
Speaker 1: something's no longer serving them. And as I'm listening to you,
Speaker 1: I'm listening to someone who's saying I finally got to
Speaker 1: a point where I realized this fantasy wasn't serving me,
Speaker 1: it was keeping me here. We can't speed it up, no,
Speaker 1: we can't rush ourselves to it. You can't be forced
Speaker 1: to it, no.
Speaker 3: And that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: I think people also need to be patient with themselves,
Speaker 2: like if they don't, if you're not feeling accountable in
Speaker 2: some of the actions that you're making, are some what
Speaker 2: someone else is doing to you that's Okay, there will
Speaker 2: be a day that you will wake up.
Speaker 3: Listen.
Speaker 2: If I was watching me when I was in my twenties,
Speaker 2: I would be judging that person too and being she's
Speaker 2: so stupid it's going to happen again. I don't blame
Speaker 2: people for their judgment. I think with life comes great
Speaker 2: wisdom and life experiences. And if my story helped anybody
Speaker 2: else feel less alone, because it's such an isolating feeling.
Speaker 2: You feel like you're on this island and it doesn't
Speaker 2: happen to anybody else, and sadly it does. And I
Speaker 2: know so many people that stay longer.
Speaker 3: Than I did.
Speaker 2: And not that it's right, but you have to let
Speaker 2: go when you really feel like you're ready, or I
Speaker 2: think that person will always feel like, well what if
Speaker 2: in this? And I really just like to live my
Speaker 2: life in this. No, I'm solid in that action. I'm
Speaker 2: solid in that choice that I made.
Speaker 1: You're making such a powerful point here, and I really
Speaker 1: want everyone to take it home as they're listening, Like,
Speaker 1: you can only learn on your own timeline. You can't
Speaker 1: learn on anyone else's. You can't look at someone else's
Speaker 1: pace and say, oh, I should have done it like
Speaker 1: that and really.
Speaker 3: Why are they doing it?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: Why are they doing it like that? And I think
Speaker 1: we just don't. It's really easy to look at someone
Speaker 1: else's life, whoever it may be, our friends, our family,
Speaker 1: people on the screen, and think we know how perfectly
Speaker 1: they should live. Yet we all know how hard it
Speaker 1: is to make one decision in our own life. And
Speaker 1: what I've learned from ever having any training and learning
Speaker 1: from my spirituality and non judgment was just that everything
Speaker 1: you judge in someone else, you won't fully understand until
Speaker 1: you have to go through it yourself. And as soon
Speaker 1: as you go through it yourself, you wake up and
Speaker 1: you go, I cannot believe I judge someone else for
Speaker 1: how they were navigating a divorce or break up, a marriage,
Speaker 1: whatever it may have been.
Speaker 2: And trust me, I was that person one of us. Yes,
Speaker 2: when I was younger, I used to you either read
Speaker 2: something and you have a comment about it or one
Speaker 2: of your friends or family members and yes, and then
Speaker 2: you live your life and you go through it and
Speaker 2: you're like, Okay, I get it a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you learn to forgive yourself? Because I
Speaker 1: think that is sometimes harder. And if I could say
Speaker 1: this just from the moments I've been fortunate enough to
Speaker 1: spend time with you and connect with you, and thankfully
Speaker 1: they've always been very deep. And so even though we
Speaker 1: haven't spent lots of time together, I feel when we
Speaker 1: have it's always been deep time. It's always a meaningful
Speaker 1: conversation or an exchange. And as I'm sitting with you
Speaker 1: here today versus six years ago the first time, and
Speaker 1: every time I've seen you in between, I feel you've
Speaker 1: got more and more peaceful. Thank you, just in your presence,
Speaker 1: You've always been wonderful and kind, but more and more
Speaker 1: peaceful in yourself. And what I see as someone who's
Speaker 1: become a master in forgiveness. Your superpower is your ability
Speaker 1: to forgive, to forgive others, but even more importantly yourself.
Speaker 1: And so I'm really intrigued about your self part, because
Speaker 1: forgiving other people is one thing, but letting yourself say, hey,
Speaker 1: I moved at the right time, I moved at the
Speaker 1: right pace. I don't need to hate on myself and
Speaker 1: not getting out of it sooner or not seeing it sooner,
Speaker 1: that requires so much in a forgiveness walk us through that.
Speaker 3: Gosh, that's a deep one, Jay.
Speaker 1: It is it is you're the one who's lived.
Speaker 2: I mean, oh my gosh, well, I am not always
Speaker 2: kind to myself, and I think I am my biggest
Speaker 2: bully and critic and all of those things at times.
Speaker 2: And it is much easier for me to forgive others
Speaker 2: than myself. I will say that forgiving myself has really
Speaker 2: been more of the last three years of my adult life.
Speaker 2: But I was so great at giving other people grace, forgiveness,
Speaker 2: making not excuses for them, but just like always coming
Speaker 2: to their defense no matter how wrong they've done me,
Speaker 2: because I feel like it's not my place to judge
Speaker 2: them and I don't know everything they're going through and
Speaker 2: that type of thing. And then one day I was like,
Speaker 2: but why don't I give myself the same energy that
Speaker 2: I'm giving so freely to other people? And a lot
Speaker 2: of it comes through my prayer and my relationship with God,
Speaker 2: and y know, like I really had to also say
Speaker 2: to myself that this isn't about me, what these people
Speaker 2: have done. It's not just relationships in so many different levels,
Speaker 2: and there are times that you feel like, Okay, what
Speaker 2: is it? Why do so many people take advantage or lie, cheat,
Speaker 2: steel whatever it is you can be angry. You can
Speaker 2: have your feelings, but sometimes you feel like, oh, it
Speaker 2: must be me because it's happened so many times. And
Speaker 2: that's also why I feel like boundaries are so important
Speaker 2: to set and I never had boundaries before, and I
Speaker 2: think that was a big thing. But I think a
Speaker 2: lot of that is releasing it and just knowing that
Speaker 2: that's not your burden to carry.
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. We start to believe
Speaker 1: deeply that there's only one problem and that's us, right right.
Speaker 1: We walk around thinking that it's all because of me,
Speaker 1: it's because of my weakness, it's because of my flaws,
Speaker 1: it's because of whatever else it is, and we completely
Speaker 1: forget that anything else to it.
Speaker 2: Well, because then also if you're like, well, that's not
Speaker 2: because of me, like when people say it also in
Speaker 2: that way, they're like, well, you know, like if everyone
Speaker 2: says that whatever, then it has to be you too.
Speaker 2: So there's that fine line lie in.
Speaker 3: That, for sure.
Speaker 2: But I think when you're just aware and when you're
Speaker 2: solid in yourself, I really do think it's okay to
Speaker 2: release those things. And if you are doing the work,
Speaker 2: if you're and the work doesn't have to be therapy
Speaker 2: like with a actual therapist, if you have a group
Speaker 2: of friends, and if those people really are unbiased and
Speaker 2: not judgmental, and you can go to.
Speaker 3: That do that.
Speaker 2: For me, I really enjoy writing. It's not for people
Speaker 2: to see, it's just it's a form of expression for me,
Speaker 2: and I feel like I'm really getting this energy out
Speaker 2: of my system.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'll write and I'm like, I'm tearing this
Speaker 2: up so no one ever sees it, and I don't
Speaker 2: even know what I'm going to start writing. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I just got to get this on from pen to paper.
Speaker 2: It's such a release. And sometimes that's the quote therapy
Speaker 2: that I need, or the conversation that I need a
Speaker 2: lot of the times it's the gym, it's whatever. But
Speaker 2: once I get to that point that I'm like okay,
Speaker 2: light bulb goes off, I'm like, yes, I could have
Speaker 2: done things differently, but I'm not the reason why this
Speaker 2: happened to me, Like there's really no excuse for certain behavior.
Speaker 2: But yes, I probably could have handled things differently or
Speaker 2: saw things differently. But you know, I think people have
Speaker 2: to be fair and not just play the victim, but
Speaker 2: not also play that they're this champion and this crusader
Speaker 2: there definitely has to be. There's good and bad to
Speaker 2: all of us, if we want to admit it or not.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think it's that it's being able to
Speaker 1: accept that I was weak, but I am not weak, right.
Speaker 1: There's a difference in that language, even in the way
Speaker 1: you're speaking about it. There's a difference in I made
Speaker 1: a mistake versus the mistake exactly. And I think as
Speaker 1: soon as it becomes internalized to believe that that's who
Speaker 1: I am, that's who I've always been, and I won't
Speaker 1: be anything else, then we don't allow ourselves to say no.
Speaker 1: It's almost like looking back at an outfit of yours
Speaker 1: and going, god, I don't know why I was wearing that, right, right,
Speaker 1: And you're like, why did I wear that? Like those
Speaker 1: two things don't even go together, right, But you know
Speaker 1: you're not your clothes, so you forgive yourself and you go, Okay,
Speaker 1: that was a bad day, and I'll wear something else today,
Speaker 1: and I can make sure that you're not.
Speaker 2: Able to laugh about it exactly. Yes, And the same
Speaker 2: sentiment should be held for our past mistakes, like haven't
Speaker 2: you ever done anything? And then it mortified you where
Speaker 2: you were so angry at yourself, and then five years
Speaker 2: later you will hysterically laugh about it with your wife
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the best.
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's.
Speaker 2: How I think most of our failures, mistakes in life
Speaker 2: should be. Sure at the moment, they're horrible and they
Speaker 2: make you feel really bad, but how beautiful is it
Speaker 2: when you have so much growth from that and you're
Speaker 2: a completely different person in a beautiful way. And then
Speaker 2: you look back and you can laugh at that at
Speaker 2: something that made you sob cry in a corner and
Speaker 2: you were, you know, in a fetal position you don't
Speaker 2: want to see anyone, And then you're like, no, Okay,
Speaker 2: I had a bad moment. It's not a bad life,
Speaker 2: and I can move on and be stronger and better.
Speaker 2: But sometimes we let those moments consume us and we
Speaker 2: never get out of them. And for me, that's a
Speaker 2: place that I never want to be, because I felt
Speaker 2: like I was in that for a few years, and
Speaker 2: that was scary to me because I've never been in
Speaker 2: a dark place for that long, of a place of
Speaker 2: shame and guilt and all of that. And then finally
Speaker 2: I just said to myself, Okay, enough, no one wants
Speaker 2: to be around someone and you're like, how's your day?
Speaker 3: Fine?
Speaker 2: And not that I was that person, but internally I
Speaker 2: felt like I was that person. I love being happy
Speaker 2: and joyful and like life is so great if you
Speaker 2: look for the.
Speaker 1: Good, you just hit on something that's really important. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people kind of get into that lull,
Speaker 1: like that feeling of a long period of I don't
Speaker 1: see light at the end of a tunnel. And was
Speaker 1: it like that for you? I mean, you're so committed
Speaker 1: to the work, whether it's your prayer, you're journaling. We
Speaker 1: were just talking earlier when you came in about how
Speaker 1: you need a few hours every week just by yourself. Yes,
Speaker 1: and that's a practice that you've maintained with children, with
Speaker 1: your businesses, with your responsibilities. That carving out that time
Speaker 1: is so important to you. Talk to me about that
Speaker 1: about like how much the work helped you even in
Speaker 1: the darkest times. Were you able to maintain it or.
Speaker 2: I mean, the work is what got me out of
Speaker 2: the darkest times. I think it's it's really easy to
Speaker 2: turn to God or whoever you're higher being. Is it's
Speaker 2: really easy to turn there when you're in this low time.
Speaker 2: And like get me out, and you know, and you
Speaker 2: just think magically they're going to send you a ladder
Speaker 2: and like pull you out of this ditch. But yes,
Speaker 2: he will maybe give you signs and tools, but you
Speaker 2: have to do the work. He can give you the recipe,
Speaker 2: but you got to put all the cake mix and
Speaker 2: everything together and bake the cake. And I think so
Speaker 2: many times people expect it just like to be magic,
Speaker 2: get me out of there, and they don't want to
Speaker 2: do the work. So the work is scary. Being alone
Speaker 2: is scary with the self reflection and writing and all that, like,
Speaker 2: because you're like, oh, I have to face myself and
Speaker 2: that seems a little daunting. And people like to distract
Speaker 2: and not come to terms with who they are. For me,
Speaker 2: and again, being in my twenties, I did a lot
Speaker 2: of distracting. It's fun to distract, especially at that age
Speaker 2: and you don't have kids and you can do whatever.
Speaker 2: And so I remember that after my divorce or even
Speaker 2: when my dad died, my dad dad. When I was nineteen,
Speaker 2: I remember going out every night because I was an avoidant.
Speaker 2: Let me avoid these feelings. If it's if I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling them, they're not happening. Well, that didn't work too well.
Speaker 2: I remember losing all my hair, gaining so much weight, hyperventilating,
Speaker 2: like when I would be alone when I got a divorce,
Speaker 2: very similar, Let me go out, let me party, drink,
Speaker 2: hang out with new guys. What does that get me?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I realized, Okay, these ways of coping didn't work for
Speaker 2: so many years that when this time happened, and maybe
Speaker 2: a little help of COVID, it was around twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, but still things were
Speaker 2: still sort of locked down a little bit, and I
Speaker 2: just said, no, I'm not going to date anyone now
Speaker 2: I have kids too, I'm not going to a club.
Speaker 2: Like what am I doing? But having to face myself
Speaker 2: and intentionally be alone, intentionally do the work intentionally. Every day,
Speaker 2: I wake up at five am because I need that
Speaker 2: alone time, to have my coffee, do my prayers, listen
Speaker 2: to my Bible app like whatever it is that makes
Speaker 2: you whole, I need that, and I know when I
Speaker 2: don't have that, how different my day feels. I like
Speaker 2: to set my intentions for the day or my workouts,
Speaker 2: the clarity I get just whatever it is everyone's going
Speaker 2: to be different. If you need to be outside, you
Speaker 2: have to decide that. But it did take me a
Speaker 2: long time of doing other things and seeing how horrible
Speaker 2: those things served me for me to find, Okay, this
Speaker 2: I like. And yes, it's easy for me to go
Speaker 2: and date a man and be an avoidant and distract
Speaker 2: these real feelings. But then what, the same thing is
Speaker 2: probably going to happen to me again because I don't
Speaker 2: know what I'm doing, and I'm just willy nilly going
Speaker 2: through life, and what because somebody is cute or this,
Speaker 2: I'm not paying attention to the core of people and
Speaker 2: even to the core of myself. And I just started
Speaker 2: listening to myself and finding the things that really made
Speaker 2: me feel whole but alone. And I know so many
Speaker 2: of my friends cannot be alone because they don't want
Speaker 2: to hear their own thoughts, they don't want to start
Speaker 2: working on themselves. And I'm not judging that, but I
Speaker 2: know how amazing it is to be alone with myself
Speaker 2: and to like who I am.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you talked about that, because I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the challenges we have today in the world,
Speaker 1: is our inability to be alone. And again I come
Speaker 1: at it from the same point of view as you.
Speaker 1: It's not about being judgmental. It's coming from a place
Speaker 1: of compassion and empathy. That you can't break a pattern
Speaker 1: if you simply avoid it and pretend it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: And when we're alone, we're breaking the pattern because we
Speaker 1: have to look at those assumptions. We have to look
Speaker 1: at all those beliefs. We have to look at the
Speaker 1: hardwired truths that we're living by. And we've got to
Speaker 1: look at way a minute every decision I make. Where
Speaker 1: in the past did that seed get planned? And I'm
Speaker 1: now eating the fruit from that? And what seed do
Speaker 1: I want to plant today? Because I want to eat
Speaker 1: a different fruit in the future. Others we keep eating
Speaker 1: the fruits from the past and never plant any new seeds.
Speaker 2: I understand how difficult it is to change your mindset.
Speaker 2: Your mind is a muscle.
Speaker 3: I get it.
Speaker 2: And we are humans by nature, like they love a routine.
Speaker 2: You find comfort in that. I totally get that. So
Speaker 2: I'm not saying, oh, it's so easy, go ahead and
Speaker 2: do this, No, but it's little practices every day.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I always say to people, there's two questions you
Speaker 1: have to ask yourself. The first is I use someone
Speaker 1: who seeks discomfort or someone who needs to build confidence.
Speaker 1: So if you're someone who needs to seek discomfort, you
Speaker 1: should start with the hardest thing first. And if you're
Speaker 1: someone who needs to build confidence, you should start with
Speaker 1: the easiest thing first. Because some of us want to
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and jump into a cold
Speaker 1: plunge because that sets us up for the day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and some of us just need to wake up and
Speaker 1: make our bed. And if we do that now we
Speaker 1: feel we can do harder things. And all of us
Speaker 1: are one or the other. And the second thing is
Speaker 1: are you an extremist or are you a balanced person?
Speaker 1: So for someone like me, I'm really good at being extreme.
Speaker 1: So if I make a decision and a commitment, I
Speaker 1: can be really extreme and cut it out tomorrow. My
Speaker 1: wife is more balanced. If you asked her to eat
Speaker 1: one tiny piece of chocolate to day, she could do that.
Speaker 1: Me I could either the whole bar and the whole
Speaker 1: box or nothing, because that's who I am as a person.
Speaker 1: And so it all comes back to what you're saying
Speaker 1: that when you're spending time alone, you get a real
Speaker 1: sense of who you are, and then you get to
Speaker 1: make better habits and decisions for yourself. For you, as
Speaker 1: we're talking about all of this and your commitment to
Speaker 1: the work, your commitment and continued commitment to it, why
Speaker 1: was traditional therapy a path that you wanted to go
Speaker 1: down and take part in? As you mentioned, why was
Speaker 1: that something that you open the door to?
Speaker 2: So for me, I never really thought I needed to
Speaker 2: go the conventional. Kimberly was also anti therapy for her
Speaker 2: own reasons, and I want to say maybe two years ago,
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit longer, she started seeing a therapist
Speaker 2: that she really really liked, and she just suggested I
Speaker 2: meet with her, and I actually really liked her. I
Speaker 2: really enjoy speaking with her. This might sound silly, but
Speaker 2: she is you know, she's like from our neighborhood. Like
Speaker 2: there's so many things that she gets us on. And
Speaker 2: I also love how chill she is. Like at the beginning,
Speaker 2: she would when I would talk to her, she was like,
Speaker 2: I think I need to see you three days a week.
Speaker 2: And I was like three days a week. And I
Speaker 2: remember telling Kendall, and Kendall was like, I've never heard
Speaker 2: of someone seeing a therapist three days a week. Do
Speaker 2: you need to go to a mental institution, like are
Speaker 2: you okay? And I was like, oh my gosh, is
Speaker 2: that not normal? And we started talking, me and the
Speaker 2: therapist more and more, and she was like, okay, I
Speaker 2: think you're like, you're actually really self aware and you're great.
Speaker 2: I just I had this little hump that I think
Speaker 2: I needed her a little bit more, maybe because I
Speaker 2: was just getting started.
Speaker 3: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: And I love that she's also very chill. She's liked
Speaker 2: call me when you need me, she checks in on
Speaker 2: me by tech. She's more like a friend, and you
Speaker 2: just feel I feel like I could trust her, and
Speaker 2: that's very rare for me. And I also think because
Speaker 2: of her relationship with Kim, she felt like more of
Speaker 2: a friend as opposed to this traditional therapist. And that's
Speaker 2: not bad or good, but because of my experience with
Speaker 2: past therapists, I didn't want something that was very traditional
Speaker 2: because I couldn't trust that. So I don't see her
Speaker 2: on a weekly basis anymore. I know when I need
Speaker 2: to see her, I will, but we do our check
Speaker 2: ins every now and again. But I honestly feel like
Speaker 2: I'm in such a good place. And I also don't
Speaker 2: think that there's one which way that people can or
Speaker 2: need to get any help or life coaching if you will.
Speaker 2: I think that it's not a one size fits all.
Speaker 2: I think everyone whatever you're willing to try, try it,
Speaker 2: and whatever you feel like really speaks to your soul,
Speaker 2: and that's that's the way to go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, there's such a value when you can
Speaker 1: trust someone in speaking to someone who's not connected to
Speaker 1: your life right and almost doesn't feel the pressure to
Speaker 1: remind you, hey, you're doing great, or like you know
Speaker 1: that's trying to fill all those other ways. But the
Speaker 1: thing that stood out to me is, you know you
Speaker 1: talked earlier about the romantic relationships where your trust was broken.
Speaker 1: How do you even find the courage to trust again.
Speaker 2: That's really hard And it took me over ten years
Speaker 2: to see a therapist again. And so many people I
Speaker 2: think you need therapy, and I was like, well, I'm
Speaker 2: sure I do, but I don't feel comfortable talking to anybody.
Speaker 2: And definitely, at first, I would talk to her so monotone,
Speaker 2: so matter of fact. She would even say, you don't
Speaker 2: have emotion when you're speaking, And for me, I had
Speaker 2: to turn off the emotional switch in me and I
Speaker 2: would tell stories because they are a matter of fact
Speaker 2: when I'm giving you the facts. But it was more
Speaker 2: like I'm it wasn't me. I'm just reading off somebody's
Speaker 2: life story. And one of our activities or homework assignments
Speaker 2: basically was me writing some like from the mini traumas
Speaker 2: to the big traumas in my life and writing them down.
Speaker 2: And the more I would write them down, it's like
Speaker 2: this is ridiculous, like how many many to major traumas
Speaker 2: there are? And then we would go line by line
Speaker 2: and talk about them, as opposed to just being like
Speaker 2: this happened and this and throwing everything under the rug.
Speaker 2: She wanted to dissect everyone, not to be nosy, not
Speaker 2: for I felt it like there's some people I meet
Speaker 2: with and I'm like, I do not trust this person.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to give them anything. And she really
Speaker 2: worked hard to earn my trust. That made me feel
Speaker 2: safer with her and just to sort of get why
Speaker 2: I am so dead about some of the things that
Speaker 2: I should probably be crying about if I'm telling somebody
Speaker 2: this story that I'm telling. But the trust took a
Speaker 2: long time. But I will say because I trust all
Speaker 2: of my siblings with everything, in me that normally if
Speaker 2: it is an introduction through them, course, my guards do
Speaker 2: go down. And Kim has had her own crazy things
Speaker 2: that she's not very trusting with either, So for her
Speaker 2: to trust I was like, Okay, I think I'm a
Speaker 2: little safe here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what did you find about that? Because I think
Speaker 1: that's so true for so many people who go to
Speaker 1: therapy that when you first go, you do recount your
Speaker 1: life as if it's a biography, right right, you talk
Speaker 1: about it is if it's another person, right, because we
Speaker 1: have disassociated and disconnected some of that emotion as a
Speaker 1: protective mechanism, as a mechanism of not internalized all of it.
Speaker 1: What did you find when you started to kind of
Speaker 1: go through the less salacious parts and these more and
Speaker 1: to be honest, I also imagine it's rarely those moments
Speaker 1: that are the really defining moments. The defining moments happened
Speaker 1: much earlier, right, well, the unseen things. What did you
Speaker 1: discover as you started to almost as you said in
Speaker 1: your words, you were dead. How did you become more
Speaker 1: alive to the emotion of those moments? What did you discover?
Speaker 2: I remember, I would just like I wrote everything down
Speaker 2: and I would read them as if I was reading,
Speaker 2: like you said, somebody's biography and I'm like okay. She
Speaker 2: would just keep asking me, you don't have any feeling
Speaker 2: when you read these? And I was like, well yeah,
Speaker 2: and I would start laughing and she's like, okay, well
Speaker 2: not laughter because I would feel so uncomfortable, and then
Speaker 2: that's my nervousness. And I realized once I was I
Speaker 2: would be like okay, sort of get my own ego
Speaker 2: out of the way, like I had to strip myself down.
Speaker 2: And it took a few times. Like she did want
Speaker 2: me to cry and relive this, she just was more
Speaker 2: fascinated how I was so numb to so many things,
Speaker 2: and it really made me more sad for myself because
Speaker 2: I felt as if, God, I've been through so many
Speaker 2: things that at this point I would rather not feel
Speaker 2: than feel, because feeling is too much for me to handle.
Speaker 2: And what is life if you don't feel things like
Speaker 2: I want to feel. I do want to feel sadness too,
Speaker 2: like I love feeling joy and happiness. But then why
Speaker 2: am I so get I know why I'm so okay
Speaker 2: with that feeling. But also, grief is also a beautiful
Speaker 2: thing because it's an expression of love. And I think
Speaker 2: being sad or hurt means that there was once something
Speaker 2: or someone that you valued and cared about so much.
Speaker 2: And those were things that I had to learn and
Speaker 2: be like, it's okay, you're safe here. So it really
Speaker 2: just taught me to remind myself, like, we don't have
Speaker 2: to be numb to everything. And I use humor as
Speaker 2: an escape, as a defense mechanism. I do love to
Speaker 2: laugh and I do love humor, but I realize in
Speaker 2: really dark situations I do tend to make a joke
Speaker 2: of it at some point, like that's just my personality,
Speaker 2: and I have to remind myself it's okay to cry,
Speaker 2: or it's okay to have feelings. That doesn't make me weak.
Speaker 2: And I don't even that's not even a thought I'm having, like,
Speaker 2: oh are they going to think I'm weak? But whenever
Speaker 2: I do cry, I tend to apologize afterwards for some reason.
Speaker 1: Have you figured out why? No?
Speaker 3: I should probably ask her about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think Bartley, it's because we're I mean,
Speaker 1: you probably know it as a mother. I think whenever
Speaker 1: we were crying as kids, most people just said to it,
Speaker 1: it's okay, don't cry, Yeah, it's okay, don't cry. Whatever
Speaker 1: it was right and not that our parents had bad
Speaker 1: intentions or anything like that. Time it's a natural thing
Speaker 1: to say. But it's like, I think we've always been
Speaker 1: made to feel like if you cried, it was almost
Speaker 1: wrong or it wasn't needed, or it wasn't necessary, and
Speaker 1: it's so weird.
Speaker 2: My mom cried, Like I wish I was more like that.
Speaker 2: She cries at anything and everything, like but happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I've cried happy tears ever, but
Speaker 2: I wish I was that type of person that I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: my goodness, the joy, Like I wish I had a
Speaker 2: little bit of that. She maybe has too much. I
Speaker 2: wish she could sprinkle a little onto me. But I
Speaker 2: am more all different.
Speaker 1: I'm that person I can like get teary to it.
Speaker 1: Like if I get asked to speak of someone's birthday
Speaker 1: that I love, or someone's wedding or whatever it is,
Speaker 1: I am just holding back tears. I've had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to officiate some weddings, and whenever I'm phishating, I'm just
Speaker 1: literally going, Jay, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, because
Speaker 1: I just when I see people in love and I
Speaker 1: see you know all families, and that's my dream. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like I'm holding back the whole time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's my dream to be Like I I
Speaker 2: have a heart, I have emotions.
Speaker 3: This is beautiful like I wish.
Speaker 1: But you're so expressive with your words. I know. I
Speaker 1: feel like every time we talk we've connected, whether we're
Speaker 1: messaging or whatever it is, you're so expressive. You're so
Speaker 1: loving through your words. Thank you, like you would feel that,
Speaker 1: and that's so natural and genuine to you.
Speaker 2: So it's that I feel all those things, like I'm
Speaker 2: probably too expressive with words sometimes, but maybe it's because
Speaker 2: I'm not a great I don't cry very often at all,
Speaker 2: and maybe that's why I don't know. Like sometimes I
Speaker 2: turn on a sad movie just because I'm like, get
Speaker 2: the tears out, and sometimes they don't come out, Like
Speaker 2: there's what is wrong with me?
Speaker 1: My wife will look over at me because I'm crying
Speaker 1: in every moment. She's like, how are you crying at this?
Speaker 1: Like nothing's even happened to I know what's gonna happen? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So it seems like one of the things I noticed
Speaker 1: with you is you're such a rock for your family,
Speaker 1: for your children, even for your ex partners. Like you've
Speaker 1: been such a raw and in one sense, it seems
Speaker 1: like one of your patterns is you've always taken care
Speaker 1: of others and other people. Have you discovered anything about
Speaker 1: why you've seen yourself take on that role in so
Speaker 1: many relationships in your life?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's definitely my love language. And I am
Speaker 2: such a maternal person. I've always been that person and
Speaker 2: no one's ever said this to me. And my parents
Speaker 2: are so loving and so incredible. But I used to
Speaker 2: feel but I like, I still love taking care of people,
Speaker 2: but I used to feel like I wasn't worthy of
Speaker 2: like so many other things. But I knew if I
Speaker 2: took care of someone or was support like, then maybe
Speaker 2: I'd be worthy of them loving me back. And that's
Speaker 2: how I used to feel. And I don't know where
Speaker 2: that came from, but it's almost like I have to
Speaker 2: earn my place in this person's life. So if I'm
Speaker 2: there for them, then maybe like that's enough because what
Speaker 2: else do I have to offer?
Speaker 3: Was how I used to.
Speaker 2: Feel when it comes to all the kids, I was
Speaker 2: very not by my family, but by other people. I
Speaker 2: was always talked about my looks, always told that I
Speaker 2: was chubby. No one ever believed that I was my
Speaker 2: sibling's sibling. They would always say, oh, look, words she'd
Speaker 2: come from her, She's related to you, from like teachers
Speaker 2: that I remember so vividly, and that feeling of being
Speaker 2: always compared to them, but always not good enough to
Speaker 2: be considered their sibling. And I don't think these adults
Speaker 2: maliciously knew what they were doing, but it was so
Speaker 2: impactful that for children, I will do everything to include
Speaker 2: them for them to never feel like that, and for
Speaker 2: adults too. But like with kids, I don't play and
Speaker 2: I never want someone to feel the way I did,
Speaker 2: and so I want to be that rock for everyone.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think also having so many brothers
Speaker 2: and sisters, you know, we were raised with my stepdad's
Speaker 2: kids too, being in and out. We had four stepsiblings,
Speaker 2: so there was eight of us and then at one
Speaker 2: point ten of us, and there's a lot and sometimes
Speaker 2: people just don't feel as seen as others and parents
Speaker 2: are doing the best that they can, and so I
Speaker 2: always have just wanted everyone to feel seen and supported
Speaker 2: and from every sister and exes like it's just I
Speaker 2: feel like they're always in our lives, that God puts
Speaker 2: people in our lives for a reason. But I don't
Speaker 2: know it's a part of me that I actually really
Speaker 2: love about myself. Because we've talked about it in therapy.
Speaker 2: She thinks I give my love. What did she say?
Speaker 2: I don't want to mess it up. She's like, I
Speaker 2: think you give your love to others because you've never
Speaker 2: really felt that love yourself. But I know I've felt
Speaker 2: that from my parents. It's mainly from outside people that
Speaker 2: I've never really felt real genuine love. It was like, oh,
Speaker 2: they'll take me because they wanted Courtney Kim and or whatever.
Speaker 2: Like I always had to like I was always the
Speaker 2: funny one because I felt like that was how I
Speaker 2: would get attention, because it wasn't because oh she's so
Speaker 2: cute or this or that, because people always made such
Speaker 2: a point to tell me how much I did not
Speaker 2: look like them or things like that. So I felt like, well,
Speaker 2: those were the things that people praised me on, so
Speaker 2: let's keep them up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it is such a beautiful thing to be
Speaker 1: able to say I love this about myself, and yes,
Speaker 1: maybe it's made me overgive or over love or overshare
Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: there's a beauty in this helps me be an amazing mom,
Speaker 1: helps me protect these children like which is such a
Speaker 1: beautiful gift. And I think sometimes that's so true that
Speaker 1: our greatest gifts and our greatest superpowers come from how
Speaker 1: we were loved and what we experienced, what we had
Speaker 1: or didn't have, and it starts figuring out how that
Speaker 1: superpower can still live in our life and not trip
Speaker 1: us up. I think as time's gone on, as we
Speaker 1: start to set bound a boundary should never put a
Speaker 1: boundary on your ability to love. It's a boundary to
Speaker 1: protect you from loving the wrong person. And there's a
Speaker 1: difference in that right you wanting to share love and
Speaker 1: give love should never be limited.
Speaker 3: But who you are not a bad thing and not a.
Speaker 1: Bad thing and not a bad thing. And I think
Speaker 1: we all can become closed hearted and you know, darker
Speaker 1: and bitter about it because of what we've experienced. But
Speaker 1: I love that you've held onto that. And I think
Speaker 1: the biggest challenge for a good hearted, good person is
Speaker 1: that we believe everyone loves the way we do yes,
Speaker 1: and then when they don't, we feel hurt. By it,
Speaker 1: and then we can become closed and unloving. But that's
Speaker 1: the biggest loss for the world. It's the biggest loss
Speaker 1: for our lives, because, as you said, there's so much joy.
Speaker 1: If you can feel joy in being that person, it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2: People are always so surprised that I'm not more cynical
Speaker 2: when it comes to love. I always asked, you ever
Speaker 2: think you're going to get married again? And I go, yes,
Speaker 2: I hope, I'm want to get married again. I think
Speaker 2: marriage is the most beautiful union that there is. And
Speaker 2: I love that. I love family. I mean, look at
Speaker 2: our family. We can't get away from each other. And
Speaker 2: I love every aspect of love, whether it be just
Speaker 2: for a friendship, love or like I value that respect
Speaker 2: and that secrecy and that loyalty and whatever it is.
Speaker 2: And people are always surprised that I believe in love.
Speaker 2: I probably am more joyful now, especially with love, than
Speaker 2: maybe five years ago. And it's because I feel like
Speaker 2: I know how to control myself more, where before, you know,
Speaker 2: you just give things so freely. And I love giving love.
Speaker 2: I love loving myself, loving my family and others. But
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm a little bit wiser with maybe
Speaker 2: whom I give it to so innocently.
Speaker 1: I think the amazing thing about love is we think
Speaker 1: love is also something we only feel when we receive it,
Speaker 1: But love you actually feel it when you get to
Speaker 1: give it. Yes, there's like a joy in giving love
Speaker 1: that isn't there even in receiving it.
Speaker 2: I could not worry more like I cannot accept gifts
Speaker 2: from people. I feel so uncomfortable, but giving somebody a
Speaker 2: gift I love, and I get so excited just for
Speaker 2: because I like to give really thoughtful gifts.
Speaker 3: It's just the joy that you give to people. I love.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just love. And I do have a problem
Speaker 2: where I love people. I was one of those kids.
Speaker 2: My mom was like, I could never leave you alone.
Speaker 2: You would just go talk to everyone and I but
Speaker 2: I've always been a people person, so and I never
Speaker 2: want to see people in pain. I want to be
Speaker 2: that love and support for someone if and when I can.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's beautiful. I mean, speaking of marriage. Obviously recently
Speaker 1: on the show, you had Lamar on the show, and
Speaker 1: I believe it was the first time you'd seen each
Speaker 1: other in nine years, almost ten almost ten years. Yes,
Speaker 1: I wonder why did you feel now? Was the time
Speaker 1: to reconnect and was it you initiated? Was him? Where
Speaker 1: did that come from?
Speaker 2: So yeah, Lamar and I. The last time I saw him,
Speaker 2: I believe was twenty sixteen. Wow, And it never spoke.
Speaker 2: Nothing since twenty sixteen, if my memory serves correctly. I
Speaker 2: was actually at Super Bowl last year, the one in
Speaker 2: Las Vegas, and my best friend Malika was there and
Speaker 2: she was staying somewhere else and she ran into him
Speaker 2: in a hotel lobby and they both just started like
Speaker 2: crying because they were really close and just embraced and
Speaker 2: they exchanged numbers and so that's how the first intro happened.
Speaker 2: And for Lamar I I've when we divorced, Lamar was
Speaker 2: not in a good headspace. But Lamar's a seven foot
Speaker 2: tall man. We had all this custom furniture and he
Speaker 2: was like, just get rid of it all. I don't
Speaker 2: want to just sell the house.
Speaker 3: And I'm like what. I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2: With that, So for years I kept a storage unit
Speaker 2: of all of his furniture, thinking one day he would
Speaker 2: want it, and years ago before I had kids, thank you, Well,
Speaker 2: it's his and expensive and he's a big guy, like
Speaker 2: you're going to want it, and I remember he was
Speaker 2: before I had true I think I was just pregnant.
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, I just I don't
Speaker 2: need to hold on to this storage unit anymore. And
Speaker 2: he said, through his friend who will go unnamed, said
Speaker 2: give him the storage keys and he'll take it for me.
Speaker 2: And I was like, cool, Fine, I did so, and
Speaker 2: I found out later down the line that this friend
Speaker 2: of his sold everything that was in the unit and
Speaker 2: without Lamar knowing, and that broke my heart because I
Speaker 2: was like, I've saved these things for years. I could
Speaker 2: have got rid of it then, but these were his
Speaker 2: belongings and memorabilia from all of his sports stuff and whatever.
Speaker 3: So that broke my heart.
Speaker 2: When I moved from my last house during COVID, I
Speaker 2: think it was twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, I
Speaker 2: didn't think I had a thing of Lamar's. I found
Speaker 2: Lamar's six Man of the Year trophy. I found his
Speaker 2: mom passed away when he was twelve. I believe I
Speaker 2: found stuff of his mother's. They were all in my
Speaker 2: attic jewelry, all this stuff, and I held on to
Speaker 2: it and I said, I'm never going to give this
Speaker 2: to somebody else unless it's Lamar. I'm going to hold
Speaker 2: onto these things because now I don't trust his people
Speaker 2: around him. And when Malika reached out. When Malika told
Speaker 2: me she saw him, I said, that's so weird. I
Speaker 2: just found his mom's driver's license last week and I
Speaker 2: was like, okay. She's like, well, why don't you give
Speaker 2: it to him? I was like, let me think this over.
Speaker 2: And it took a few months for me to want
Speaker 2: her to reach out to say, like, do you want
Speaker 2: to met up with me? Because I wanted to do it.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to just drop it off. I didn't
Speaker 2: I wanted to see him and make sure still that
Speaker 2: he was doing okay. And at the time I didn't
Speaker 2: have any feelings. I was like, yeah, let's hang let's
Speaker 2: come over, Let's go to Malika's house. I didn't want
Speaker 2: to do it in public where it would be a
Speaker 2: big spectacle. I didn't want to do it at my
Speaker 2: house because my kid's there, and he knew about the cameras.
Speaker 2: He picked the time of the date. I never would
Speaker 2: have ambushed somebody about that, and he picked the time
Speaker 2: of the date. He flew in for it, and it's
Speaker 2: so weird. When I thought I was totally cool, and
Speaker 2: when he came in, he was so nervous, and I
Speaker 2: was trying to reassure him, like we're fine and whatever.
Speaker 2: And there would be times in our conversation that I
Speaker 2: started getting these feelings. I don't know if they're triggers
Speaker 2: or because we've both experienced a lot of trauma together,
Speaker 2: Lamar and I, and there would be either little mannerisms
Speaker 2: or things that would flash me back to ten fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago, and I didn't realize how triggered I was
Speaker 2: getting from Lamar.
Speaker 1: What did it bring up for you? And was it
Speaker 1: useful in giving moreclosure? Did it feel like it moved
Speaker 1: it on or was it kind of like pulling you back?
Speaker 1: Because I'm thinking about all the people in the world
Speaker 1: to have the courage festival to even not talk to
Speaker 1: someone for nine years, because that's hard enough as it is,
Speaker 1: but then to kind of throw yourself back into it
Speaker 1: that much time later.
Speaker 2: Well, I could only say this because he I would
Speaker 2: never tell somebody else's story. But I'm saying this because
Speaker 2: he said it on the episode. We didn't talk for
Speaker 2: ten years because after his overdose, Lamar couldn't walk or
Speaker 2: talk and he had a significant amount of seizures and
Speaker 2: strokes and needed to be rehabilitated, and I helped him
Speaker 2: through that journey, and then when he was at a
Speaker 2: decent place, he started using again, and he said that
Speaker 2: on the show.
Speaker 3: That's why I'm saying it now.
Speaker 2: And from that moment was when I was paying for
Speaker 2: a house firm to be in, I was taking care
Speaker 2: of him, and I said, I can never see you again,
Speaker 2: not that it was anything ever romantic. I love Lamar
Speaker 2: with all my heart even today, I love, love, love him,
Speaker 2: and I know he was like one of the greatest
Speaker 2: loves of my life. It just other circumstances took over.
Speaker 2: So I really sincerely wanted the best for him. When
Speaker 2: he started using again after such a horrific accident where he,
Speaker 2: in my opinion, is a miracle that he is alive today.
Speaker 2: I couldn't understand how someone would go and do that again.
Speaker 2: And I get it's a disease, but it felt like
Speaker 2: you punched me in my stomach. And I put so
Speaker 2: much of my life on hold to take care of
Speaker 2: this person, just for them to be like, well, that's fine,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not sure how he felt about himself. It
Speaker 2: made me feel that he had no respect for his
Speaker 2: own life and for anything that I did for him
Speaker 2: as well. And so from that moment on, I said, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not speaking to this person anymore because it does
Speaker 2: nothing for me. There's no benefit in this. I felt
Speaker 2: more like I would be taking care of him but
Speaker 2: being lied to. I just I had so many negative thoughts.
Speaker 2: So that ten year break, as sad as it was,
Speaker 2: it wasn't that hard for me because I it was,
Speaker 2: but it was sad, and I thought about him all
Speaker 2: the time and always wanting to make sure he's okay.
Speaker 2: And then when I saw him, like I loved seeing him,
Speaker 2: it was great. It was really sad at the same
Speaker 2: time seeing someone I thought I would never outgrow. I
Speaker 2: realized how much I outgrew him, and that made me sad.
Speaker 2: But I wonder if we were still married, would we
Speaker 2: have grown together? And there were so many things that
Speaker 2: made me wonder even more, like would we have grown
Speaker 2: together if we did stay together, would this have stopped?
Speaker 2: Or would it would that beast always you know, be
Speaker 2: needing to be fed. But you can't live your life
Speaker 2: in the what ifs of it all. But it definitely
Speaker 2: made me sad because I just felt like we were
Speaker 2: two totally different people and I never thought we would
Speaker 2: get to that place. Yeah, I'm happy for him. I
Speaker 2: am so happy that he's so Bernie's doing these great
Speaker 2: things with his life, and those are things that anyone
Speaker 2: should be rooting for.
Speaker 3: I'm also proud of.
Speaker 2: Him for meeting with me, because as much as scary
Speaker 2: as or as nerve wracking and yeah, scary as it
Speaker 2: was for me to meet with him, I could only
Speaker 2: imagine how he felt because we left on really bad
Speaker 2: terms on his end, so I'm sure it was scarier
Speaker 2: for him.
Speaker 1: Does it make you feel like there's more healing for
Speaker 1: you to do in regard to that relationship, like resentment, anger,
Speaker 1: or that the forgiveness that you had is kind of
Speaker 1: felt more concrete.
Speaker 2: I don't have any anger or resentment. I really really don't.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if this is a bad or
Speaker 2: a good thing. But me and all my siblings, my
Speaker 2: mom could be on the fence with this one, but
Speaker 2: definitely me and my siblings. When we will be mad
Speaker 2: in the moment and curse someone out and YadA YadA,
Speaker 2: you give us a year and we're like, we love
Speaker 2: that person. What do you like, we don't ever hold
Speaker 2: on to that bad stuff, and we don't know if
Speaker 2: that's necessarily good, because you sometimes you need to remember
Speaker 2: what people are capable of, but we're like, oh, but
Speaker 2: they're great, and we'll recite these great things. But I
Speaker 2: also think it is a beautif thing because I want
Speaker 2: to remember the good. I know what you are capable of,
Speaker 2: but I don't need to hold on to all of
Speaker 2: the stuff that happened too, because I also feel like
Speaker 2: that was their journey that was for them to experience
Speaker 2: and go through and I was just a bystander. Yes
Speaker 2: I went through it as well, but that journey is
Speaker 2: really for that other person.
Speaker 1: I'm mind blown, honestly. I mean, it's just and I
Speaker 1: believe you so deeply. I can I can feel it
Speaker 1: just sitting with you in your presence. But it's so
Speaker 1: hard to do what you're saying for just in general.
Speaker 1: And people always say forgive and forget, but I think
Speaker 1: for you it's forgiven. Don't forget.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, forgive and don't forget. And I think so
Speaker 2: much of it is empathy. I think that that's.
Speaker 1: Huge, Chloe. It's huge, Like I want, I really hope
Speaker 1: you I really hope you allowed that to sit with
Speaker 1: you and take that incident of just how huge it.
Speaker 2: Is well because most people say, oh, because you're so week, No,
Speaker 2: I think of it, and I think it is a strength.
Speaker 2: Like whenever I remember when Tristan's mother passed away, and
Speaker 2: Tristan has a brother that's disabled and his mother was
Speaker 2: Amari is Tristan's brother's name. Tristan's mom was a Mari's
Speaker 2: sole caretaker and she passed away. Tristan's house was under construction,
Speaker 2: we had all these crazy rains, his roof caved in.
Speaker 2: Tristan and I were not speaking at this time, like
Speaker 2: there was not a chance I would speak to him.
Speaker 2: And when Andrea passed away, I remember having a Mari
Speaker 2: and Tristan move in with me, because yes, he could
Speaker 2: have gone to a hotel, but he need Tristan and
Speaker 2: Amari both needed to be not isolated. They both lost
Speaker 2: their mother. Amari needs special living arrangements, caretakers. There's a
Speaker 2: lot that comes with Amari. And so I was like,
Speaker 2: live here, your kids are here. I got so much
Speaker 2: crap for that, and I'm thinking, do you guys think
Speaker 2: this is weak? I wasn't speaking to this man fifteen
Speaker 2: minutes ago, and now I'm offering to give my house here,
Speaker 2: and that to me takes so much more strength. And
Speaker 2: also to walk around the house in front of my
Speaker 2: kids and smile. And because I'm not fighting in front
Speaker 2: of my kids, I don't do stuff like that. But
Speaker 2: and with Lamar, like for Lamar, when his accident happened,
Speaker 2: his overdose happened at a brothel, and you know it's
Speaker 2: not like the like I showed up at the hospital
Speaker 2: not because I'm weak, because I was strong and I
Speaker 2: needed to take care of him because who else would have.
Speaker 2: And I think people don't realize how much strength comes
Speaker 2: in those things. And it doesn't mean I forget. It
Speaker 2: just means there's something bigger here that's going to take precedence,
Speaker 2: and I need my moral compass says I need to
Speaker 2: show up and honor that.
Speaker 3: And that's just mine.
Speaker 1: Don't ever let anyone tell me it's weak. It's so
Speaker 1: not weak. It's it's so powerfully strong. And you can
Speaker 1: see it in your heart and just that a heart
Speaker 1: full of compassion and empathy and context and understand, I
Speaker 1: mean you did that for a Mari. Right. The other
Speaker 1: situation you're going if you're not talking to someone and
Speaker 1: you're going against all of this, but you're recognizing that
Speaker 1: there's someone here who's vulnerable, unable to care for themselves, right, And.
Speaker 3: Yeahstan could have got a hotel, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but with Amari And then and I wanted
Speaker 2: Tristan to be with his brother because I've been with
Speaker 2: that family for years. But Amari knows he just lost
Speaker 2: his mother. He needs to be around his brother. And
Speaker 2: there were so many things. But you know, I think
Speaker 2: I think where some people call it weakness, they don't
Speaker 2: realize how much strength goes into putting your own personal
Speaker 2: feelings aside for the betterment of somebody else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the biggest thing is you're you're better off
Speaker 1: because of it internally, And I think that's ultimately what
Speaker 1: no one sees apart from you, is you have to
Speaker 1: go to when you're when your eyes closed at night
Speaker 1: and you go to sleep, you go to sleep with
Speaker 1: that feeling of what you did and how you felt right,
Speaker 1: and if you were in bed that night going I
Speaker 1: should have done this, I should have helped. I wish
Speaker 1: I did this, But I'm going to look strong and
Speaker 1: I don't want to be weak right, But then you're weak.
Speaker 1: You've just you know, stayed up all night trying to
Speaker 1: solve this issue in your head. Yeah, yeah, I know
Speaker 1: it's huge. You brought up your beautiful children, who I
Speaker 1: love seeing you with and the cutest and I was
Speaker 1: just thinking that being a mom for you is just
Speaker 1: such a it feels like such a natural role. As
Speaker 1: you said earlier, it's my favorite thing, but it's your
Speaker 1: favorite thing, and it comes across and seeing all the
Speaker 1: kids together and everything. What do you hope as they
Speaker 1: grow up do they learn about you and seeing you?
Speaker 1: What's your hope for them to understand about their.
Speaker 2: Mom Oh my gosh, I wish my phone's in the
Speaker 2: other room. But I dropped her off at school today
Speaker 2: and they each wrote something about someone, and True wrote,
Speaker 2: I love my mommy because there's kindness in her soul.
Speaker 2: And she's six, and I help her do her homework,
Speaker 2: which both for sweet but the sentence there's kindness in
Speaker 2: her soul. I was like, what a profound thing to
Speaker 2: say and a deep thing.
Speaker 3: For a six year old.
Speaker 2: It was so beautiful and that makes me feel, you know,
Speaker 2: like that I'm doing something right that they don't love
Speaker 2: their mommy. Because she gives me presents or this or that.
Speaker 2: Like I try to be as present with my children
Speaker 2: as possible. We all have our phones, we all I'm
Speaker 2: not saying I'm never on my phone, but when we
Speaker 2: do have our time, I want to be on the
Speaker 2: floor with them playing games. I'm not just going to
Speaker 2: buy them all these games, and that's what they care about,
Speaker 2: and they care about just the routine, the memories, the dinners,
Speaker 2: the the little things that doesn't have to be all
Speaker 2: day every day. I know everyone's working and everyone's juggling
Speaker 2: a million things, but if you even only have thirty
Speaker 2: minutes with your kids, make sure to put your phone
Speaker 2: down for the thirty minutes because your kids will remember that,
Speaker 2: and that thirty minutes you can build such a connection.
Speaker 2: And me and my kids we talk and they take
Speaker 2: baths together, both of them, and that's our time. And
Speaker 2: how loving both my kids are with each other that
Speaker 2: I take such pride in because I always hear stories
Speaker 2: about you know, and I don't think I was that
Speaker 2: nice to my brother when I was little.
Speaker 3: But I just want.
Speaker 2: Them to know that this is a house of love,
Speaker 2: and like for me, love is the foundation love and
Speaker 2: faith is the foundation for everything.
Speaker 1: That's so beautiful. I mean it shows I mean, that
Speaker 1: is such a profound thing for a six year old
Speaker 1: to write.
Speaker 3: Isn't it.
Speaker 2: I got it this morth. I took a picture of
Speaker 2: it this morning. I was like, I am, I was shocked.
Speaker 2: I like, what a deep thing to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so sweet. We were talking about earlier societies,
Speaker 1: expectations and pressures as you up, and as you said,
Speaker 1: it's so much harder on children today. Yes, because of
Speaker 1: the axis right before, you knew what your class was doing. Today,
Speaker 1: you know what the whole world is doing right. There
Speaker 1: are also kids that the whole world knows what they're
Speaker 1: doing right. So it creates so many How do you
Speaker 1: what does it look like when you're thinking about this
Speaker 1: and you're figuring out how they navigate the world that
Speaker 1: they're growing up and what are the thoughts that come
Speaker 1: to your mind.
Speaker 2: We went to a restaurant the other night and the
Speaker 2: waitress kept calling me by my name.
Speaker 3: She was like, Chloe, do you want another drink? Whatever?
Speaker 2: And true was going, how does she know who you are?
Speaker 2: And I go, oh, I just come here all the time,
Speaker 2: which I don't. But they don't realize that we're on
Speaker 2: TV or anything, like, they don't know the difference because
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about it.
Speaker 3: And I just think that's that's impressive.
Speaker 2: I think that's so funny to me that she's like,
Speaker 2: how does somebody.
Speaker 3: Know your name? Or she'll say why do they want
Speaker 3: a picture with you? They go maybe she likes my hair?
Speaker 3: Like I always try to say like something and brush
Speaker 3: it off. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't want to make a big deal out of it,
Speaker 2: you know, for my kids. True, she has an iPad
Speaker 2: that they can watch shows or whatever when doing her hair,
Speaker 2: but I have limited iPad time, and I tell her
Speaker 2: she can't have a phone until she's twelve, and who
Speaker 2: knows about keep that.
Speaker 3: But that's I don't think kids need it. Other than that.
Speaker 2: I think they have these amazing phones that are just
Speaker 2: for calling. Now I forget what they're called. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: there's no internet access, and so I'm like, yes, if
Speaker 2: you you know, you could have one of those phones,
Speaker 2: but just to call me. But otherwise, why, I don't
Speaker 2: want you looking at these things. They're not on the internet,
Speaker 2: Like she's not on Instagram or TikTok or that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. I don't think that's necessary at this age.
Speaker 2: I think it's really damaging. But I try to not
Speaker 2: be on those things when I'm around them. Like we'll
Speaker 2: film videos and I post them later, but we just
Speaker 2: think we're making like dance videos. But I try not
Speaker 2: to be on those things around them because they see that.
Speaker 2: I picked up the phone when we were at a
Speaker 2: red light and True was like, Mommy, no texting and driving.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my gosh, she's right, I
Speaker 2: was at a red light, but she They will also
Speaker 2: remind you if you're doing anything illegal. They love to
Speaker 2: yell at you. But I don't know what the world
Speaker 2: looks like for that. I'm not someone that covers their
Speaker 2: faces and does all that. I feel like I don't
Speaker 2: want to not be out with my kids and or
Speaker 2: feel like I have to hide them. I feel like
Speaker 2: that would make my kids more anxious or ask more questions.
Speaker 2: If my kids ever wanted to do something on TV
Speaker 2: or anything like that, we would talk it through. But
Speaker 2: I don't push it. I don't necessarily want them to,
Speaker 2: but if they want to, then we can talk about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were also saying that dating something that you'd
Speaker 1: be open to at least one day in your forties
Speaker 1: and then you.
Speaker 3: Said ten years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. And I was thinking, like, this idea
Speaker 1: of dating as a mom is hard, I'm sure, with
Speaker 1: time and energy and fn everything else, Like, how does
Speaker 1: that even fit into that wheelhouse as you're thinking about
Speaker 1: it for all the moms out there who are thinking
Speaker 1: about dating in their voys, which is very real.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm the best one to ask,
Speaker 2: because I genuinely I have young My kids are younger yea,
Speaker 2: and so I am loving that I get to have
Speaker 2: so much time with them right now, and there's going
Speaker 2: to be a time that no matter how much they
Speaker 2: love me, they're not going to want to be with me,
Speaker 2: you know. They're like, I want to be with my friends,
Speaker 2: and yes, that's going to hurt, but I get it.
Speaker 3: I was that kid.
Speaker 2: And right now I'm truly happy and I don't feel lonely.
Speaker 2: I've like, I'm so fulfilled with work and my kids,
Speaker 2: and once they're asleep, like I get a little bit
Speaker 2: of a lone time, and then I go to sleep
Speaker 2: and I start again.
Speaker 1: Listening to I'm thinking, like there's such a just even
Speaker 1: what you're saying and just being happy with it you
Speaker 1: are happy with yourself. I wonder does the evolved version
Speaker 1: of you that's been doing all this work. How do
Speaker 1: you think about the right partner now versus how you
Speaker 1: used to think about it and then you know the
Speaker 1: quick before, Like, how is that impacted what you look for,
Speaker 1: what you think about?
Speaker 2: What I do love is that now I am forced
Speaker 2: to take my time with someone. Where before I would
Speaker 2: love a good love bombing. I'm like, you love me, okay,
Speaker 2: like and I would just like roll with it, where
Speaker 2: now I think we could, you know, mildly love bomb.
Speaker 2: But I can't do much about it because I do
Speaker 2: love the love.
Speaker 3: And the affirmations. I do love all that.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to deny it. But I have to
Speaker 2: move slow because of my children, and that is a
Speaker 2: good thing for me. I am so used to my
Speaker 2: routine right now. I'm such a structured person. I don't
Speaker 2: do a lot of socializing unless it's with my same
Speaker 2: group of people. And someone said to me, why don't
Speaker 2: you throw like an event at your not an event,
Speaker 2: but like I host a dinner at my house once
Speaker 2: a month and have your friends invite another friend and
Speaker 2: not even about for romantic reasons, but just for the fact,
Speaker 2: because dating is a skill, or even socializing, Like my
Speaker 2: social battery is empty all the time because I'm not
Speaker 2: used to using it anymore. If it's not in the daytime,
Speaker 2: I'm like, you want me up past nine? That's crazy?
Speaker 2: Like to me, I'm like, how do you stay awake?
Speaker 2: I have to get used to staying up a little later,
Speaker 2: entertaining people hanging out. So I loved that idea of
Speaker 2: like maybe once a month having a little dinner party
Speaker 2: with my friends. If it's a group of people, I
Speaker 2: don't mind if they are around my kids because it's
Speaker 2: a group and just meeting people. It could be romantic
Speaker 2: if someone brought someone that was like, okay, like this person,
Speaker 2: or it could just be me, you know, sharpening the
Speaker 2: tool of socializing with people again.
Speaker 1: But see, I love that idea because I think you've
Speaker 1: just hit on something for a lot of people. I
Speaker 1: think so many people almost we do the extreme. So
Speaker 1: one extreme is we love bombing, we get love bombed,
Speaker 1: we love it, it doesn't work out. But then the
Speaker 1: other extreme is we get so comfortable being alone, yes,
Speaker 1: that we don't even know how to engage with others.
Speaker 1: And I think we kind of oscillate between these two
Speaker 1: things where we just go back and forth as opposed
Speaker 1: to I love what you're doing, which is, hey, let's
Speaker 1: create an opportunity for a connection, whether it's romantic or not.
Speaker 1: And I'm practicing my skill. It's not going to feel
Speaker 1: like this really daunting thing now when I have a
Speaker 1: conversation with someone, and it kind of keeps it fresh
Speaker 1: for us. And I think that's so important for people
Speaker 1: because we get so confident and comfortable being alone.
Speaker 3: Totally because that was me.
Speaker 2: I have been alone for three years and I love it,
Speaker 2: like I'm scared, yeah, and I'm like, okay, I have to.
Speaker 2: I love this maybe too much where that worries me
Speaker 2: because I could do this for another five years and
Speaker 2: be so happy about it, but that's not normal, Like
Speaker 2: I need to push myself and for people that if
Speaker 2: you don't want to bring people to your home, you
Speaker 2: guys could do this at a restaurant and have it
Speaker 2: be a monthly thing or every other month thing, like
Speaker 2: what what ever's workable for your schedule. I just loved
Speaker 2: that lesson and I can't do it weekly like I
Speaker 2: would love to in my brain, but that's too much
Speaker 2: social battery.
Speaker 1: For me.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I could do once a month where
Speaker 2: I just have a little gathering at my house, and
Speaker 2: it is a skill that I want to work on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that. For you, that's such a great
Speaker 4: it's brilliant. You might be invited to one. Oh, I'd
Speaker 4: loved let me know when, I'd love that. I'd love that.
Speaker 4: That'd be so much fun. No, that sounds beautiful. And
Speaker 4: one thing I noticed about you throughout this whole conversation
Speaker 4: that I admire so deeply is you just lean into discomfort.
Speaker 1: Just lean into it. Oh my god, that's so hard
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 3: Wow, I didn't think of that.
Speaker 1: You just lean into it, whether it's the discomfort of forgiveness,
Speaker 1: the discomfort of moving on, the discomfort of accepting where
Speaker 1: you are, the discomfort of raising a family, the discomfort
Speaker 1: of people seeing you as being weak, the discomfort of
Speaker 1: doing external judgment. You just lean into it. Where does
Speaker 1: that come from? Where did you see it? Where did
Speaker 1: you experience it? Now that seeing ady supposed to.
Speaker 3: Be he Yeah, no, my wheels are turning right now.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I sound like a broken record, but so
Speaker 2: much of it is my faith. But also be but
Speaker 2: it is, But I was raised in such a faith
Speaker 2: heavy household my mom and my dad. Faith is the
Speaker 2: foundation of everything. And my dad we went to Sunday
Speaker 2: school every Sunday, like everything was always about faith, Prayers
Speaker 2: every night, prayers before food. And I think when you're
Speaker 2: just raised that way, you learn to rely and lean
Speaker 2: on your faith whenever you need to. And I'm someone
Speaker 2: that it's so easy to rely on faith when you're
Speaker 2: struggling and when something's bad. But I, yes, I go
Speaker 2: to God when I'm struggling, but I go to God
Speaker 2: so much more when I'm happy because I am so
Speaker 2: grateful and I'm telling Him, thank you for bringing me
Speaker 2: out of that spot. And I think so many people
Speaker 2: forget to go to your higher power when you're in
Speaker 2: the best of times, because that's when he wants to
Speaker 2: acknowledge them too, not just when you need them that's easy,
Speaker 2: like don't just call me for help, like I want
Speaker 2: you to call me too when you're joyful and there's
Speaker 2: so much greatness going on, and so I do the same.
Speaker 2: And I think the more that you talk about greatness,
Speaker 2: the more greatness then surrounds you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think faith is just such an underestimated part
Speaker 1: of life.
Speaker 2: It's sad. I was watching the Academy Awards the other
Speaker 2: night and I barely heard anybody thank God. And at
Speaker 2: the end Adrian Brody he was I think one of
Speaker 2: the last speeches, and the very first thing he said
Speaker 2: was I just want to thank God.
Speaker 3: And I don't know that just me.
Speaker 2: I was like, it was sad to me that not
Speaker 2: that many people lead with faith anymore, and not that
Speaker 2: you have to, but it was a big thing that
Speaker 2: I noticed.
Speaker 1: You get scared. Now there's like this worry, and I
Speaker 1: feel like things are coming back around again. It almost
Speaker 1: feels like there was a time when you almost couldn't
Speaker 1: talk about it because you would be judged for they'd
Speaker 1: be connotations or right, you know, things like that around it.
Speaker 1: And I definitely felt that as well, where it's just
Speaker 1: like okay, and I think now that's coming back around
Speaker 1: where I think a lot of younger people in the
Speaker 1: world today are turning towards spirituality and faith and for
Speaker 1: that which you're seeing in trends and conversations where I
Speaker 1: think people are having to look for higher purpose and
Speaker 1: higher meaning now because it's really hard to find meaning
Speaker 1: and purpose around us and I think what you talk
Speaker 1: about it so beautifully is that it's a conversation. It's real,
Speaker 1: it's natural, it's good and bad. It's not like this
Speaker 1: ritualistic process. There's a genuine relationship that exists there, which
Speaker 1: is what we're all looking for as well. Yeah. Yeah, Chloe,
Speaker 1: it's been such a joy talking to you today. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I love every moment I get to spend with you,
Speaker 1: and you've just reminded us of how we can be
Speaker 1: strong in tough times, how you can look back on
Speaker 1: your life and move forward, how you can reflect and
Speaker 1: still feel so much growth, and that we shouldn't be
Speaker 1: scared to do the work, and that we can be scared,
Speaker 1: but then we still have to follow through.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I'm so thankful that my community and I get
Speaker 1: to learn from you and sit with you and really
Speaker 1: dive into so much stuff that people have seen play
Speaker 1: out for them publicly, but to really understand how you've
Speaker 1: been processing it behind the scenes is really a gift.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Ja.
Speaker 2: It's so easy to talk to you, and I love
Speaker 2: and adore you and being in this safe space, So
Speaker 2: thank you for allowing me to be vulnerable and feel
Speaker 2: so safe with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: If you love this episode, you will also love my
Speaker 1: interview with Kendall Jenna on setting boundaries to increase happiness
Speaker 1: and healing.
Speaker 4: You're in a child You could be reading something that
Speaker 4: someone is saying about you and being like.
Speaker 2: That is so unfair because that's not who I am
Speaker 2: and that really gets to me sometimes.
Speaker 3: But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like,
Speaker 3: but I know who I am. Why does anything else matter?