1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, the production 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: This is part two of our two part podcast on 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Lord Elgin and the Parthenon Marbles. I really recommend listening 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: to part one. That's the whole story of of how 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: he got these marbles in the first place. Very briefly, 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: in that episode, we talked about how he became the 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, how he decided to 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: document classical Greek ark and architecture while he was there, 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: and how that project morphed to include removing the artwork 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: rather than just drawing it and making casts and molds 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: of it. These are often called the Parthenon Marbles, although 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: the pieces that are involved were not just from the Parthenon, 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: they were also from other parts of the Acropolis and 16 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: Athens and elsewhere in Greece. So today we're going to 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: talk about how all of that played out, and how 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: these sculptures became part of the collection of the British Museum, 19 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: and why there's still controversy about this that has continued 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: until today. Just a quick recap on sort of the 21 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: cast of characters people involved. At this point we have 22 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Thomas Bruce, the seventh Earl of Elgin and eleven of Kincarten. 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: He was the British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire and 24 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: was stationed in Constantinople. Giovanni Batista Lucieri was a landscape 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: painter from Naples who was recruited to oversee a team 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: of architects, artists, mold makers and others in a project 27 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: that was originally meant to document classical Greek art and architecture. 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: The Reverend Philip Hunt was an Anglican priest and the 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: chaplain to the British embassy in Constantinople. He was appointed 30 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: as Lord Elgin's temporary secretary to act on his behalf 31 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: in Athens. And then in Athens, the team mostly interacted 32 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: with people who occupied two different government positions. The exact 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: people in those positions varied over time. They included the Voivode, 34 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: who was the governor of Athens, and the Dizdar, who 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: was the military governor with authority over the acropolis itself. 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: Elgin asked for permission to return to England in late 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: eighteen o two. He had taken this position in part 38 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: because he thought that the climate and warm sea bathing 39 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: available in Constantinople would be good for his health, and 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: instead I had the opposite effect. In addition to not 41 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: bringing about any improvement in the chronic illnesses that had 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: motivated him to go, he had developed some kind of 43 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: wasting condition that eventually caused him to lose the lower 44 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: half of his nose. He was also just tired of 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: a Constantinople and he wanted to go home, and he 46 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: was given permission to depart in January of eighteen oh three. 47 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: He seems to have understood that future Ottoman administrations might 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: not look kindly on the removal of so much material 49 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: from the Parthenon and elsewhere at the Acropolis, and he 50 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: also worried about what that might mean for the Ottoman 51 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: officials he had worked with while he was an Athens. 52 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: So before he left, Elgin got ds from Ottoman officials 53 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: saying that they had approved of the actions made by 54 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: the Voivode and the dISTAR, and he left those letters 55 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: with those two men as protection in case politics shifted. 56 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: Later on, as Elian was preparing to leave Constantinople, France 57 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: was also withdrawing from Egypt, and it seemed likely that 58 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: peace would soon be negotiated between France and the Ottoman Empire. 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,639 Speaker 1: This meant that the Ottoman Empire had way less need 60 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 1: of the British as allies, which gave Ottoman authorities less 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: incentive to cooperate with Britain's plans. It also meant that 62 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: the British Navy ships that Elgin had counted on to 63 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: take all of this marble back to England were now 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: occupied with the withdrawal of British troops from Egypt. Even 65 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: though Elgin's project wasn't an official government effort, everyone had 66 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: taken for granted that the British Navy would help get 67 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: all of this material back to England. Yeah. This this 68 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: shift in relationships among Britain, France, and the Ottoman Empire 69 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: went so far as the fact that, like the British 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: Embassy was being shut down and in Stantinople, when it 71 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: was established in Constantinople, it was in a former French embassy. 72 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: Like there was a lot of of international back and 73 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: forth with this, on top of the lack of availability 74 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: of British Navy ships moving a whole bunch of marble statues, reliefs, 75 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: architectural elements, and other work by sea is just an 76 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: inherently difficult task. I mean it would be difficult overland also, 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: But most of the captains that Elgin and his team 78 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: talked to trying to get all this stuff to England 79 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,119 Speaker 1: were not at all eager to weigh their ships down 80 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: with such heavy cargo, which would make the ship a 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: lot more likely to wreck in bad weather. So Elgin 82 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: used his own ship, the Mentor, for a lot of 83 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: this transport. The Mentor successfully made a round trip from 84 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: Athens in late eighteen o one. Then in September of 85 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: eighteen o two, two days after setting sail from Athens, 86 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 1: it sank in a storm off the coast of Cithera. 87 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: And when it sank, the Mentor was carrying seventeen cases 88 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: of classical Greek sculpture, including fourteen pieces of the parts 89 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: non freeze and four pieces of the freeze from the 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: Temple of Athena Nike. Various other pieces were on board 91 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: as well, although the largest heaviest pieces were still in Athens. 92 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: With the help of passing ships and sponge divers who 93 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: had been recruited from islands in the agency. Four of 94 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: the seventeen cases were salvaged from the shipwreck pretty quickly. Then, 95 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: in November of eighteen o two, plans were made to 96 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: try to raise the Mentor from the sea floor. Two 97 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: ships were supposed to work together to do this, but 98 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: due to a miscommunication, one of them didn't arrive, so 99 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: the HMS Lave Victorious tried to do it alone. The 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: cable that they were using to do this snapped, The 101 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: mentor sank back down to the sea floor, and soon 102 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: afterwards salvage operations had to be suspended for the winter. 103 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: It turned out that the crew of the other ship 104 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: had incorrectly heard that the Mentor was in pieces and 105 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: was impossible to raise, so they thought that they weren't 106 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: needed after all. Although that wasn't true in November of 107 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: eighteen o two, it was true by this ring of 108 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: eighteen o three, after it had sat there underwater in 109 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: months of winter storms. By that point, Elgin was on 110 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: his way home, having left Constantinople on January sixteenth of 111 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: eighteen o three. When he left, England and France were 112 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: not at war, peace had been established. He decided to 113 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: make part of the journey home over land through Italy 114 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: and France. Part of his motivation here was to try 115 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: to avoid the seasickness that had really just plagued his 116 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: wife on their first journey to get to Constantinople in 117 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: the first place. But he also wanted to talk to 118 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: artisans in Rome about restoring the statues that he was 119 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: removing from Athens. At the time, it was really common 120 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: for restorers to replace broken and missing parts of things 121 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: like classical statues, so like if the arm had broken off, 122 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: they would make a new arm for it, right. And 123 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: you will still see in some museums some pieces where 124 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: they will point out, yeah, hey, that's not the same stone, 125 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: that's a repaired piece. Right. We wouldn't do that if 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: we had recovered this piece today. Um. But then England 127 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: declared war on France again on eighteen o three, which 128 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: is often marked as the start of the Napoleonic Wars. 129 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: Elgin and his wife were in French territory and they 130 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: became prisoners of war. Their children were allowed to continue 131 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: home to Britain and they had some degree of freedom, 132 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: but Elgin and his wife were not permitted to leave France. Meanwhile, 133 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: the salvage operations at the wreck of the mentor were ongoing, 134 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: with five cases brought up in eighteen o three. These 135 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: cases were partially buried on the beach and covered with 136 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: things like seaweed and stones to try to protect them 137 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 1: from the wind and the water until a ship could 138 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: be dispatched to pick them up. Divers brought up the 139 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: remaining cases in eighteen o four, and finally Admiral Nelson 140 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: ordered a ship to the area to retrieve them all. 141 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: Elgin later estimated that the salvage effort cost him about 142 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: five thousand pounds, but it didn't recover everything from the ship. 143 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: He was really focused on those seven team cases of sculptures. 144 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: Divers have continued to bring up other items in the 145 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: century since then, with dives in and Steen bringing up 146 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: things like ancient amphora, coins, jewelry, and statues. In August 147 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: and September of archaeologists from Greece's effort for underwater antiquities 148 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: brought up other items, including jewelry, cookware, and even a 149 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: prosthetic leg. Also still ongoing was lucy Aries work around 150 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: the Parthenon. He continued to work for years after this, 151 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: Long after Elgin had gone back home, he kept collecting 152 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: and documenting various antiquities. In eighteen o four, France convinced 153 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire to rescind their earlier firmans, and in 154 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: October of eighteen o five, the Empire implemented a total 155 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: ban on removing antiquities from Greece, and from that point 156 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: Lucy Area had to confine his work to Elgin too, 157 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 1: drawing and painting and guarding the statues that Elgin had 158 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: already collected that had not been taken to Britain yet. 159 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: While Elgin was being detained in France, the British captured 160 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: a French ship that had been carrying Greek sculptures and 161 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: other pieces that had been collected by Schwizoi Guffier, who 162 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: we mentioned in Part one. British authorities didn't think the 163 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: cargo was important enough to worry about, so it remained 164 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: in a British customs house until Elgin eventually found it 165 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 1: there years later. At various points between eighteen o three 166 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: and eighteen o six, elgin situation went beyond just not 167 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: being able to leave France. He was actually imprisoned. His 168 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: wife was allowed to leave in eighteen o five after 169 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: the death of one of their sons. Basically let her 170 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: go home for humanitarian reasons. Elgin finally arrived home in 171 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: June of eighteen o six, after signing a par role 172 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: that promised the French government that he would go back 173 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: to France at any time they demanded. That parole was 174 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: in place until Napoleon abdicated in eighteen fourteen. We will 175 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: get to what happened after Elgin finally got home after 176 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: we first paused for a little sponsor break. Elgin's life 177 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: changed dramatically after his return to England. As we noted 178 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: in part one earlier in his career, he was thought 179 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: of as a pretty promising young man, but after being 180 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: detained in France, he could not get any kind of 181 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: appointment that would be typical for a man of his station. 182 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: The idea that he might be called back to France 183 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: at any moment and would have no choice other than 184 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: to go was just too big of a risk for 185 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: anyone to take on him. He also went through a 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: really embarrassing divorce when he returned from France. His wife 187 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: said that she had been so traumatized and injured by 188 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: the birth of their fifth child that she could not 189 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: risk becoming pregnant again, and she ended their physical relationship. However, 190 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: she was also having an affair, and when Elgin learned 191 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: about this, he filed a civil action against her in England, 192 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: and he filed for divorce in Scotland, where it was 193 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: easier to get a divorce on the grounds of adultery. 194 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: Elgin was worded ten thousand pounds in the civil suit, 195 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: but his divorce trial lad to just a lengthy and 196 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: scandalous public testimony about his wife's infidelity, including statements she 197 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: had made about how her attraction to him had started 198 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: to wane after the loss of his nose. There's also 199 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: been a lot of speculation about exactly what caused Elgin's 200 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: illnesses and his disfigurement, and various people have concluded that 201 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: it was syphilis, which of course would have carried even 202 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: more stigma than than it does today. Yeah, basically, he 203 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: had all of his personal business just spilled out into 204 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: the public. Elgin's divorce also meant that he would no 205 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: longer be coming into his wife's fortune, and that was 206 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: something that he had been counting on and had been 207 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: a factor in his financial decision making up to that point. 208 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: He also lost his seat in Parliament, and his health 209 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: made it impossible for him to return to active duty 210 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: with the military. Elgin's massive debts and lack of income 211 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: trickled down to people who had been working for him, 212 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: who then lost their incomes as well. To add insult 213 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: to injury, many of Elgin's peers didn't think that he 214 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: was actually broke. They assumed that he had gotten rich 215 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: off bribes while working in Constantinople and that he was 216 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: just being coy about it. At this point, all those 217 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: antiquities that Elgin had removed from sites in Athens and 218 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: elsewhere in Greece were scattered around various places, some of 219 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: it still in Greece waiting transport to England. In terms 220 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: of what was in England, a lot of it was 221 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: being stored in various friends homes, and many of them 222 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: were deeply annoyed that there were these giant cases of 223 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: marbles taking up space in their houses. So Elgin rented 224 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: a large home with a garden, and he had a 225 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: shed built to house all of this artwork. He collected 226 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: all the marbles that had arrived from Greece and arranged 227 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: them in a way that he thought was aesthetically pleasing 228 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: rather than one that had a historical or architectural meaning 229 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: to it. He did not wind up having the sculptures 230 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: restored in Italy because he just did not have the 231 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: money to do it. He finished us in eighteen o 232 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: seven and he opened his little shed for viewings by 233 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: artists and architects, and he immediately got a ton of 234 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: requests from artists that wanted to study and draw what 235 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: he had brought back to Britain. He had to appoint 236 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: a curator and ration access to the shed, and people 237 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: also praised the idea that he had saved all this 238 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: artwork from destruction. But he did also have some detractors, 239 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: especially after classical scholar pay Night went on a campaign 240 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: to tell people that the sculptures weren't from the Greek 241 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: Golden Age at all, but were in fact much later 242 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: and far inferior Roman works. That was not true, but 243 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: it fueled various controversies. The Anglo Turkish War started in 244 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: eighteen o seven and that started a huge scramble for 245 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: Elegant to try to get the last of those sculptures 246 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: that were waiting for him in Athens out of Athens. 247 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: That effort to remove the last sculptures to Britain lasted 248 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: beyond the end of the Anglo Turkish War in eighteen 249 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: o nine, the last shipments from Athens to England and 250 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: did not happen until eighteen twelve. Meanwhile, in eighteen ten, 251 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: Elgin remarried and it became clear to him that he 252 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: needed to do something to try to get himself out 253 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: of debt. His income from his family property wasn't anywhere 254 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: near enough to pay it off. He also had four 255 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: surviving children from his first marriage, and he expected to 256 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: have more kids with his second wife, and he needed 257 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: a way to support them all and ideally not leave 258 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: them all in debt after his death. So he decided 259 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: to sell the sculptures that he had brought back from Greece, 260 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: advocating for the Nation of Britain to buy them. To 261 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: that end, he anonymously published a memorandum on the subject 262 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: of the Earl of Elgin's pursuits in Greece. He published 263 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: several editions of that over the next few years. The 264 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: British government heard his proposition, they made him an offer 265 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: of thirty thousand pounds. This was significantly less money than 266 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: he had spent getting the marbles and salvaging them from 267 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: the wreck of the Mentor and so he turned it down. Then, 268 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: in eighteen eleven, George Gordon, Lord Byron, visited the Acropolis 269 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: in Athens. Lucieri, who was still working for Elgin, gave 270 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: Lord Byron a tour, and later when Byron sailed to Malta, 271 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: it was on Elgin's ship. Byron seems to have warned 272 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: Elgin that he wasn't happy with what he saw and 273 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: experienced regarding Elgin's work in Athens, but Elgan either did 274 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: not take him seriously or just didn't know what to 275 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: do about it. Byron also was not nearly as famous 276 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: at this point as he was about to be, so 277 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: Elgin may not have thought any of this was a 278 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: big deal. Simultaneously, Elgin was advocating for Britain to buy 279 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: the sculptures and other marbles. He was also looking for 280 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: somewhere else to house them, because with all of his 281 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: debts he could not afford to keep renting a separate 282 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: home for that purpose. With the shed to display all 283 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: the marbles in the Duke of Devonshire offered to store 284 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: them at his home, which was Burlington House. There wasn't 285 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: really enough room for all the sculptures indoors there, though, 286 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: so some of them were left out in the yard, 287 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: and that included the last shipments that arrived from Athens 288 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: in twelve. In March of that year, Byron published a 289 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: long poem called Child Harold's Pilgrimage, and with this poem 290 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: his career suddenly took off. The first printing of Child 291 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: Harold sold out in just a few days. Byron had 292 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: previously written several critiques of various antiquarians, including Elgin specifically, 293 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: and Child Harold included this passage along with prose notes 294 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: that specifically named Elgin. Here's what this passage said, among 295 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: others in the work, dull is the eye that will 296 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,479 Speaker 1: not weep to see thy walls defaced, thy moldering shrines 297 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: removed by British hands, which it had best behooved to 298 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: guard those relics near to be restored. Cursed be the 299 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: hour when from their aisle they roved and once again 300 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: thy hapless bosom gourd and snatched thy shrinking gods to 301 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: northern climbs of hoard. Lord Byron is one of those 302 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: people that I would not have ever wanted to be 303 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: on his bad side and have him rite nasty verse 304 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: about me, because he could be vicious uh. In addition 305 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: to launching Byron to fame, this poem brought Elgin's actions 306 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: in Athens, as well as the plight of the Greek 307 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: people under Ottoman rule, into the public spotlight, and it 308 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: stoked a lot of debate. At one point, Edward Daniel 309 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: Clark told Byron about his experience seeing the marbles cut 310 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: down and people weeping, which Byron worked into the notes 311 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: of future editions of this poem. Clark had also published 312 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: his own thoughts on this in his travels in various 313 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: countries of Europe, Asia, and Africa. This was a massive, 314 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: multi volume work that heavily criticized the removal of the 315 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: sculptures from the Parthenon, and it included some selections from 316 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: Child Harold in later additions. I should also be noted 317 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: that Clark came home with some antiquities from his travel 318 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: in Greece as well, just not nearly to the extent 319 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: of what Elgin had done. Of course, this controversy folded 320 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: into the question of whether Britain might buy the sculptures, 321 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: which Elgin was still trying to pursue after turning down 322 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: that initial offer of thirty thousand pounds, but on May 323 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: eleventh of eighteen twelve, John Bellingham assassinated British Prime Minister 324 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: Spencer Perceval over a personal grievance with the government. That 325 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: assassination took place in the lobby of the House of Commons, 326 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: and of course the question of what to do with 327 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: the Parthenon Marbles was tabled in the aftermath, along with 328 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: a whole lot of other issues. The War of eighteen 329 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 1: twelve also started in June of that year. Yeah, there 330 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: was there was a lot going on, and as all 331 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 1: of that was happening in Britain, attitudes were shifting in Greece. 332 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: A sense of Greek nationalism and Greek national identity was 333 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: starting to grow there, including a renewal of the Greek 334 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: language and a movement for Greek independence from the Ottoman Empire. 335 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: In eighteen fifteen, Napoleon returned from exile and the Duke 336 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: of Devonshire sold Burlington House. Its new owners plan to 337 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: totally rebuild the estate, which made Elgan's need to sell 338 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: the sculptures even more urgent. The Brite Museum arranged for 339 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 1: a committee to evaluate the issue, although that committee included 340 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: pay Night and other people who either did not care 341 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: for Elgin or thought the sculptures he'd acquired were overrated. 342 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: Elgin started to fear that he might be offered even 343 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: less than what he had turned down initially. On June 344 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: fifteenth of eighteen fifteen, Elgin presented a petition to the 345 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: House of Commons, which the House of Commons debated but 346 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: didn't take any action on. Then just days later, on 347 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: June eighteenth, Napoleon was defeated at the Battle of Waterloo. 348 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: At that point, many of the nations that France had 349 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: previously invaded demanded their artwork and artifacts and other national 350 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: treasures back from the Louver. Although Elgin's acquisitions from Athens 351 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: weren't part of this, they were part of this conversation, 352 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: especially as at least five thousand pieces of artwork were 353 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: returned from France to their nations of origin. And then 354 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: came yet another source of public allegations against Elgin, this 355 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: time from the Reverend R. Twiddel to a l published 356 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: a book about his late brother John, including an appendix 357 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: detailing all kinds of allegations against both Elgin and Philip Hunt. 358 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: It is kind of a convoluted story, but the Reverend 359 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: Twitter was apparently incensed over what he saw as Elgin's 360 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: mishandling of his late brother's papers, something that John Spencer Smith, 361 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: who we mentioned in Part one, was connected to and 362 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: egged him on about. So Elgin denied any wrongdoing in 363 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: all this, but it turned into kind of a scandal 364 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: like we would describe it today as a flame war. 365 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: There was a lot of back and forth publishing of letters, 366 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: and various people pointed out how Elgin's relationships with pretty 367 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: much everyone he had ever worked with, aside from Lucieri 368 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: he was still employing in Athens, those relationships had all 369 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: totally deteriorated. When some of John Twiddel's drawings were found 370 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: at the home of Elgin's ex father in law, people 371 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: took it as evidence that, on top of everything else, 372 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: Elgin had lied about this whole situation. In February of 373 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen, Elgin put forth another petition before the House 374 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: of Commons, once again proposing that the British government by 375 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: the marbles. It also requested that they investigate how he 376 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: had gotten them in the first place, to try to 377 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: put an end to all of the suspicion. This petition 378 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: was debated on February hearings before a select committee began 379 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: on February nine. When they were questioned, Elgin, Hunt and 380 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the other people who were involved talked 381 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: about a lot of the points that we've already gone over. 382 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: We read from some of their stuff in part one. 383 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: They talked about how Elgin wanted to document the masterpieces 384 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 1: of ancient Greece for the edification of artists and architects 385 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: in Britain, and that he had asked for the government 386 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: to fund this but had ultimately paid for it himself, 387 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: and that when he saw the damaged the Acropolis that 388 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: had already happened, he wanted to save as much artwork 389 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: there as he could. He estimated his total expenses, including 390 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: expenses after the marbles had been removed to Britain, as 391 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: just shy of seventy five thousand pounds. There was also 392 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: a lot of discussion about the ferments that we talked 393 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: about earlier, and about the persuasion that had been part 394 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: of how Ottoman authorities interpreted them. Artists were also questioned 395 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: about the value of these marbles, both artistic value and 396 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: monetary value. As part of that pain Night suggested that 397 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: they were worth thousand pounds. These hearings went on for 398 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: two weeks. When the committee delivered its report, it suggested 399 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: that Elgin had done what he did legally, that he 400 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: did not abuse his power to do so, that he 401 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: hadn't damaged the monuments needlessly, and that he hadn't done 402 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: what he did for personal gain. The report also spoke 403 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: to the benefit that the marbles could bring to the 404 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: arts in Britain, and the words of the report quote, 405 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: no country can be better adapted than our own to 406 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: afford an honorable asylum to these monuments of the School 407 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: of Phidias and the Administration of Pericles. The recommended offer 408 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 1: price for the sculptures was thirty five thousand pounds. This 409 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: was much less than Elgin had said that he spent 410 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: on this whole endeavor, but it was also five thousand 411 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: pounds more than the previous offer, so he kind of 412 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: felt like he had no other choice at this point 413 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: and he accepted. Then Parliament had to vote on all 414 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 1: this to make an official in which they did after 415 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: debating on June seventh of eighteen sixteen. They voted to 416 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: purchase the marbles from Elgin for thirty five thousand pounds, 417 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: with eight two votes four and eighty against. An Act 418 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: of Parliament then gave the nation ownership of the marbles, 419 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: which were formerly known as the Elgin Marbles, and it 420 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: also made Elgin and his heirs trustees of the British Museum. 421 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: That payment of thirty five thousand pounds immediately went to 422 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: Elgin's creditors, still leaving him in debt. In spite of that, 423 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: he kept employing Lucieri for as long as he could, 424 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: saying that he felt sorry for him. For his part, 425 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: Lucieri believed he could have become a really famous artist 426 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: if he hadn't started working for Elgin. He died in 427 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: eighteen one. All Elgin did eventually returned to Parliament as 428 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: a representative peer for Scotland. His career never really recovered 429 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: from all of this. He kept trying to get a 430 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: British peerage, hoping that it would help him get out 431 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: of debt, but that never happened and he died on 432 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: November fourteenth of eighteen forty one. But the story of 433 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: the marbles continues, and we'll get back to them and 434 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: how the controversy around them has also continued after we 435 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: have one more sponsor break. By January of eighteen seventeen, 436 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: the collection of sculptures, which were by then officially known 437 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: as the Elgin Marbles, was on public view in a 438 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: temporary space in the British Museum. They immediately became a 439 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: huge draw. Although there were people still in Britain, Greece 440 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: and elsewhere who vocally protested that they should not have 441 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: been removed from Greece in the first place, these sculptures 442 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: and architectural elements were credited with doing exactly what Elgin 443 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: had hoped they would, contributing to the edge of cation 444 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: of British artists and architects and bringing a renewed focus 445 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: on art and architecture in Britain. The marbles themselves became 446 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: part of the British national identity. They also inspired other 447 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 1: works of art, including poetry by John Keats, and contributed 448 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: to an ongoing trend of Greek Revival architecture, including the 449 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: main entrance of the British Museum. The British Museum also 450 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: started providing molds and casts of the marbles for other 451 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: museums and other facilities to use. Over time, a lot 452 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: of these casts were made, and eventually the museum made 453 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: a set of casts like a master set, specifically for 454 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: the purpose of making molds out of them, but they 455 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: were making so many molds that eventually those casts had 456 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: become too worn down to make good molds anymore. They 457 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: would need to make the cast over again. In eighteen 458 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: twenty one, the Greek War of Independence began. It's also 459 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: called the Greek Revolution, and this, combined with the rising 460 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: sense of Greek national identity that we mentioned earlier, led 461 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: to increasing calls for Britain to return the parson on Nobles. 462 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: These calls continued after Greece was formally declared an independent 463 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: nation under the protection of Britain, France, and Russia in 464 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty three. Immediately this newly independent nation of Greece 465 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: started focusing on the return of its cultural, artistic, and 466 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: architectural heritage from other countries. To be clear, Greece at 467 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: this point was culturally and ethnically diverse. It's not really 468 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: clear how many people living there could have traced their 469 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: lineage all the way back to Greek antiquity. And there's 470 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: really a whole other discussion that could be had about 471 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: the rise of this Greek national identity and what that 472 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: meant for racial and ethnic minorities who were living there. Nevertheless, 473 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: this Nation of Greece, right from its founding, saw classical 474 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: Greece in general, and the Acropolis and the Parthenon specifically 475 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: as a really important part of its identity. In March 476 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: of eighteen thirty five, the Acropolis was declared a national 477 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: monument and the Nation of Greece put an end to 478 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,640 Speaker 1: its use as a military facility for the first time 479 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: in probably centuries. Greece also banned the export of its antiquities, 480 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: although it's still had trouble stopping vandalism and looting, most 481 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: of which was done by foreign visitors. Dad there's there 482 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: was an article that came out um right before the 483 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: end of the year that was basically about how there 484 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: was more damage done to these monuments that were still 485 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: in Greece in the nineteenth century then there has been 486 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: in the centuries since then through things like air pollution. 487 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: There's is a lot of vandalism and looting and theft. 488 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: Also in eighteen thirty five, the British Museum offered Greece 489 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: a set of casts of the Parthenon marbles. Greece asked 490 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: for the originals and also embarked on a project to 491 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: restore the Parthenon that year, as well as repairing and 492 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: re erecting elements that had been knocked down in that 493 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: sixteen eighty seven explosion, along with other damage. In eighteen 494 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: thirty two, the Elgin Room, now called Room seventeen, opened 495 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: on the British Museum's west side as a home for 496 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: the Elgin Marbles. Another gallery, named for its financier art 497 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: dealers Shore Joseph Duvine, was built for that purpose in 498 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties, and while that gallery was being built, 499 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: Duvine employed people to clean the Parthenon marbles and make 500 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: them look whiter, under the incorrect idea that he was 501 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: restoring them to their proper appearance without the oversight of 502 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: museum staff and without following the museum's established cleaning procedures. Yeah, 503 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: we're kind of fast forwarding roughly a hundred years here, 504 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: but during that whole time, people in Greece were still 505 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,719 Speaker 1: advocating for the return of the marbles. That didn't stop 506 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: in the interim. So the museum had used various cleaning 507 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: techniques over the years, and by the early twentieth century, 508 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: the basic process was to periodically dust the pieces off, 509 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: to occasionally wash them with distilled water and a neutral 510 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 1: soap very gently. But the people that Duvine and ployd 511 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: we're using metal tools and carborundum, which is an abrasive 512 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: to scrub and scrape away the exterior of these pieces, 513 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: which at that point was kind of a brownish or 514 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: a honey color. Of course, initially we know that these 515 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: sculptures were painted, like the paint is not visible to 516 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: the naked eye at this point, but like after there's there, 517 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, two thousand years of existence, they had taken 518 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: on this this different coloring. And when this cleaning in 519 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: quotation marks was discovered, it happened because a member of 520 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: the museum staff walked into a room and saw that 521 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: in the works on three pieces. In the investigation that 522 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: followed this discovery, the museum learned that this whole incorrect 523 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 1: cleaning procedure had been going on for at least a 524 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: year and a half in nineteen thirty seven and ninety eight. 525 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: This was a massive oversight, and it is not entirely 526 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: clear still exactly how it happened, but at least some 527 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: of the people that Duvine had hired had been given 528 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: keys to the museum. That was not a good security procedure. 529 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: So the museum's investigation was finished in December of night, 530 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: and this new exhibit was supposed to open the following May. 531 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: And the words of Frederick Price, who was then the 532 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: keeper of Greek and Roman antiquities at the museum, from 533 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: this report quote the surface of the sculptures, showing the 534 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: evidences of two thousand years of exposure to the climate 535 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: of Greece, was a document of the utmost importance. There 536 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: being no possible doubt about the history of the Parthenon sculptures, 537 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: they came to the museum as authentic masterpieces of Greek 538 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: work of the fifth century BC, and for purposes of 539 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: study in comparison, they are of inestimable value. The damage 540 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: which has been caused is obvious and cannot be exaggerated. 541 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: The exact steps that the museum took next were not recorded, 542 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: but the Standing Committee's minutes record some kind of remedial solution. 543 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: Apparently coding the marbles was something that was meant to 544 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: replicate their earlier color in terms of the ramifications. For 545 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: the museum staff, multiple people who were involved with all 546 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: of this oversight were given early retirement. One man, assistant keeper, 547 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: Roger Hanks, became something of a scapegoat over it. He 548 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: was essentially to be demoted, but he was also told 549 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: that it quote would not be to his disadvantage if 550 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: he resigned, so he did. Although the museum tried to 551 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: handle all of this quietly, rumors quickly spread that something 552 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: had happened to the marbles, and this bloomed into a 553 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: massive media scandal. The museum's public statements from the nineteen 554 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: thirties generally tried to downplay things, explaining what the authorized 555 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: cleaning methods were without really acknowledging the widespread damaging and 556 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: unauthorized cleaning that had also gone on. But not long 557 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: after the Divine Gallery opened, World War Two started in 558 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: Europe and people became more focused on making sure the 559 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: sculptures weren't damaged in air raids. The gallery itself was 560 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: badly damaged by bombs during the war, but the sculptures 561 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: were not affected. There is a lot more about all 562 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: of the story in Lord Elgin and the Marbles, which 563 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: is a book by WILLIAMS. St Clair published by Oxford 564 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: University Press, specifically the third edition, which came up in 565 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: St Clair was the first person to go through and 566 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 1: document in print what happened in nineteen seven and ninety eight, 567 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: and how the museum presented it to the public. St 568 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: Clair is extremely critical of the museum's actions, interpreting their 569 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: response as an ongoing cover up. The British Museum has 570 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: framed it more as a mistake, acknowledging that the work 571 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: was an overcleaning and characterizing the response to the public 572 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: at the time as a serious misstep, but denying that 573 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: there was any sort of long term cover up involved 574 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: since then. In recent years, when Greece has renewed its 575 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: calls for the return of the Marble's, Brittain has refused, 576 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: but in other points in history Britain has made overtures 577 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: that they might actually give them back. During World War Two, 578 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: Britain started drafting a plan to return the Marbles to Greece, 579 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: hoping it would inspire Greek resistance against an invasion by 580 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: Germany or Italy. In the nineteen fifties, during the Cyprus Emergency, 581 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: Britain suggested that it might return the Marbles if Greece 582 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: would end its support of a guerrilla campaign against Cyprus's 583 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: British colonial government. In more recent years, Neil Kennock, who 584 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: was then the leader of Britain's Labor Party promised that 585 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: the Marbles would be returned to Greece in nineteen ninety six, 586 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: but when the Labor government actually took power the following year, 587 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: they were not. At various points, legislation has been introduced 588 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: in Parliament to return the Marbles to Greece, but it 589 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: has never really gone anywhere. As Britain was nodding to 590 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: the idea of returning the Marbles in the nineteen forties 591 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: and nineteen fifties, some of the reinforcement work that had 592 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: gone on at the Parthenon in the years after Greek 593 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: independence started to deteriorate. Iron had been used in some 594 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: of the supports, which had shifted and rested over time. 595 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: Greece also industrialized very quickly into the nineteen sixties, leading 596 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: to issues with air pollution and acid rain. A major 597 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: earthquake also struck Athens in n one, and all of 598 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: this became arguments in part for why Britain should not 599 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: return the Marbles. But at the same time there were 600 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: ongoing calls that Britain should return them, especially after the 601 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: passage of UNESCO's Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and 602 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: Preventing the illicit import, export and transfer of ownership of 603 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: cultural property that was past in ninety Those calls have 604 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: cited all the questions about Elgin's actions and the scope 605 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: and the legitimacy of the firm in that we have 606 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: talked about throughout this episode, along with whether that nineteen 607 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: thirties overcleaning incident undermines the idea that the British Museum 608 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: has been protecting the sculptures. One of the things that's 609 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: been cited is the reason why the marbles shouldn't be 610 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: returned to Greece is the idea that Greece didn't have 611 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: a facility like the British Museum where those marbles could 612 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: be housed, conserved, and displayed. In part because of that criticism, 613 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: Greece built the new Acropolis Museum of Athens, which opened 614 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand eight. All the statues and other artworks 615 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: that can be removed from the Parthenon are now indoors 616 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: there so that they can be protected from the elements 617 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: and from intentional theft or vandalism. So the gallery that's 618 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: dedicated to the Parthenon at this new museum has large 619 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: glass windows that overlook the Parthenon itself and then the 620 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: size and the shape of the room replicates the perimeter 621 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: of that inner cello where the freezes are, and the 622 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: friezes are displayed there as they were on the original building. 623 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: The pieces of the freeze that are in the British 624 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: Museum or in other museums, because there are some pieces 625 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: in other museums as well, those have been replaced with molds, 626 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: and in some cases molds and casts replace individual pieces 627 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: that were broken off and are in the British Museum collection, 628 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: not so much in like the old style of restoring pieces, 629 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 1: but more to show like we have this piece of 630 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 1: the freeze, but the foot that should be on here 631 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: is in the British Museum. In the Andonis Samaras administration 632 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 1: in Greece called on UNESCO to mediate between Britain and 633 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: Greece over the issue of the marbles. That August, UNESCO's 634 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: Assistant Director General for Culture wrote a letter to the 635 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: director of the British Museum, the UK Foreign Secretary, and 636 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: the Minister for Culture, Media and Support. UNESCO offered to 637 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: act as the mediator that Greece had requested. In the 638 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,479 Speaker 1: UK government and the trustees of the British Museum each 639 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: responded with a decline. The museum's response read, in part quote, 640 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: the British Museum is not a government body and the 641 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: collections do not belong to the British Government. The trustees 642 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: of the British Museum hold them not only for the 643 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,720 Speaker 1: British people, but for the benefit of the world public, 644 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: present and future. The trustees have a legal and moral 645 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,879 Speaker 1: responsibility to preserve and maintain all the collections in their care, 646 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: to treat them as inalienable, and to make them accessible 647 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 1: to world audiences. The passage of brexit in also raised 648 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 1: questions about whether Britain should return the Marbles after leaving 649 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: the EU. There are several arguments at work with that idea. 650 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: One is that returning artwork to other nations might help 651 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: Britain rebuild relationships with other countries once it is not 652 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: part of the EU anymore. And another is that if 653 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: citizens of the European Union can no longer freely visit 654 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: England to visit the British Museum, then Britain isn't really 655 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: holding those works for the good of humanity only for 656 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: the British. Obviously, citizens of the European Union are just 657 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,880 Speaker 1: a fraction of the totality of humanity. But that is 658 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: the argument that's being made in this case. As of 659 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,760 Speaker 1: when we are recording this, the bregsit deadline is January. 660 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: It's a few weeks down the road from today, so 661 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: this all remains to be seen. Yeah, I think it's 662 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: like a week after this episode will probably come out. However, 663 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: throughout this controversy, Britain has said fastly maintained that it 664 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: will not return the marbles in January are British Museum 665 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: director Heartwig Fisher again reiterated that the marbles would not 666 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: be returned, calling their initial removal a creative act. He 667 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: said this in an interview with Greek daily newspaper Tanya Today. 668 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: Britain's argument for keeping the parthen On Marbles is basically 669 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: that they were acquired legally and that they are freely 670 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: available for anyone to see because the museum does not 671 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: charge admission. They have also stressed the museum's placement of 672 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: the marbles in the context of world history and art, 673 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,920 Speaker 1: alongside other masterpieces from other parts of the world. Britain 674 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,480 Speaker 1: has also cited concerns relating to things like economic issues 675 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: in Greece, including a debt crisis and austerity measures. Previous 676 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: points about Greek air quality in the lack of an 677 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 1: appropriate museum are no longer really relevant thanks to the 678 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: construction of the new Acropolis Museum. Greece's argument for having 679 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: the Marble's return includes that Britain's acquisition was not legal, 680 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: that the firm and was not that broad to allow 681 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: such a huge removal of material, or that it may 682 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 1: not have existed or may not have been an actual 683 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: firm in at all. Additionally, Britain's negotiations were not with 684 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,760 Speaker 1: Greek authorities. They were with the Ottoman Empire, which modern 685 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 1: Greece views as an occupying nation. It's also been noted 686 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: that Elgin's initial plan with all of this was not 687 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 1: at all to safeguard the pieces in a museum for 688 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 1: the benefit of all of humanity. It was to keep 689 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: them on his personal property for access by people he 690 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: chose to allow to see it. From the Greek perspective, 691 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 1: these sculptures are a critical part of Greek national identity, 692 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 1: Greek history, and Greek culture, and they should be returned 693 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: to Greece and reunited with the rest of the sculptures 694 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: that are still there. But it's also been noted that 695 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: At this point, Britain's argument for keeping the Marbles isn't 696 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 1: really motivated by all of the points that we have 697 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: just outlined. There's more of a slippery slope argument in play, 698 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: and a fear across the world of museums as a 699 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: whole that if Britain returns the parthon on Marble's, every 700 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 1: museum everywhere will be forced to return artwork, artifacts, or 701 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: other pieces of historical or cultural heritage that they obtained 702 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: in some way that would be considered questionable today. Yeah, 703 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: and ways that we're probably considered questionable at best by 704 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: the people they were removed from at the time. So 705 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: some other commonly cited examples of this are the Rosetta Stone, 706 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,200 Speaker 1: which Britain obtained in a treaty with Egypt, the Benin Bronzes, 707 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: which British soldiers took from what's now Nigeria in the 708 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: late nineteenth century, and the bust of Nefertiti, which has 709 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,280 Speaker 1: been in Germany since a German team founded in nineteen 710 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: twelve and is now in the Noius Museum in Berlin. 711 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: We've talked about calls to return the Rosetta Stone in 712 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: a past Unearthed episode and Britain has announced that at 713 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: least some of the Benien Bronzes will be returned to 714 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 1: Nigeria and overall, in the last few years there has 715 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: been a growing trend of returning and repatriating items from 716 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: museum collections, especially human remains, as part of an overall 717 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: trend towards decolonizing museums. But people are still fearful of 718 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: what a greater move toward repatriation might mean. And it 719 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,320 Speaker 1: is something that would affect the world's most prominent art museums, 720 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: including the met, the Louver and many others, lots and 721 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 1: lots of them. And so it's a huge, huge issue 722 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 1: and like a massive conversation that's going on throughout the 723 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: world of art and art history and museums and all 724 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,879 Speaker 1: of that. Uh. Well, probably talk some more about those 725 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: ideas in our behind the Scenes many so uh which 726 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 1: will be out on Friday. It's a safe bet. Yeah. Um. 727 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 1: I have a listener mail, so who takes out before 728 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: we get to that sweet This is from Stephanie. Stephanie says, Hello, 729 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: Tracy and Holly. I'm a longtime listener and absolutely love 730 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: your show. I was particularly excited to hear your show 731 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: about Alfred Wegner, because although I don't know much about 732 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: his working continental drift, I am familiar with his final expedition. 733 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,479 Speaker 1: You mentioned in the know that the researchers who made 734 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: it out to ice Mended were able to do some 735 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 1: work before Vegnar arrived, but I wanted to note just 736 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: how important that work was. While waiting out the winter, 737 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 1: Earnst Sworge Hand dug a sixteen meter deep pit into 738 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: the ice and developed a new method for measuring the 739 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,280 Speaker 1: seasonal accumulation of ice on the glacier using its density 740 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: that could be used even if the layers were not visible. Later, 741 00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: this technique would be critical in the discovery of man 742 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: made climate change. What I love about the story is 743 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: that it further proves how important scientific research is, even 744 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: if the importance isn't clear for years and years. Thank 745 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: you so much for all the work you do. Happy podcasting, Stephanie. 746 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: Thank you Stephanie for this email. UM. I had read 747 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: a little about the ice cores that they took during 748 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: that expedition, but I did not know that detail about them, 749 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: so thank you so much for sending that. If you 750 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this or any 751 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,600 Speaker 1: other podcast where History podcast at my heart radio dot com. 752 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: And then we're all over social media at miss in History. 753 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: That's where you'll find our Facebook, Pinterest, Twitter, and Instagram. 754 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to our show on Apple podcast, 755 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: the I heart radio app, and anywhere else you get 756 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a 757 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: production of I heart Radio's How Stuff Works. 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