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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hello again and welcome to the latest edition of the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe Podcast with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe

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Speaker 1: Madden and Joe I always like to call this the

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Speaker 1: most interesting baseball podcast on the planet. I like to

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Speaker 1: think of us as the craft Brewery of baseball podcast,

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Speaker 1: or maybe the artists in bakery. How does that sound

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 2: Good?

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Speaker 3: I love artists in bakeries. I got my nice cup

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Speaker 3: of Americana with an extra double shot of espresso sitting

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Speaker 3: next to me. Yeah, yesterday I was playing golf here

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Speaker 3: at Ruffled Feathers. I'm here in Chicago for the week,

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Speaker 3: doing different things and ready to tee off on the

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Speaker 3: first tea and who shows up culls up right alongside

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Speaker 3: me but Ozzie Gean, and we had a great conversation.

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Speaker 3: He looked great, and he says he looks great because

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Speaker 3: he's not managing anymore.

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Speaker 2: Always a fun conversation.

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Speaker 3: I just quickly two thousand and eight, when we beat

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Speaker 3: them in the playoffs with the Rays, we beat the

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Speaker 3: White Sox. I'm sitting in my office after the game

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Speaker 3: and Guard comes in from the front door and says,

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Speaker 3: Ozzie wants to see you.

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Speaker 2: So walk out to the front.

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Speaker 3: Door and he's standing there to congratulate me and us

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Speaker 3: on winning. From that moment on galvanized our Friendship's he's wonderful,

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Speaker 3: he's he's he's electric, and there's a lot of different things,

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Speaker 3: but I when it comes down, he's got a great

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Speaker 3: heart and it was a great meeting yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great way to describe him. And he

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Speaker 1: is a straight shooter, there's no doubt about that.

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Speaker 2: The question and everybody loves it.

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Speaker 1: And speaking of interesting, we've got a really interesting guest today.

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Speaker 1: Looking forward to this one. Say hello to Tom House.

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Speaker 1: Now you might know him, former Major league player and coach.

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Speaker 1: He's really devoted his entire life to really how to

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Speaker 1: be a better baseball player in person. Actually he's the

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Speaker 1: founder of the National Pitching Association. That's a health based

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Speaker 1: performance program for everybody, youth professionals. And he's got a

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Speaker 1: new app out. It's fairly new, I guess mustard, which

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Speaker 1: really a lot of players are in other sports, not

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Speaker 1: just baseball, are digging right now. So say hello to

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Speaker 1: Tom House. Tom, how are you.

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Speaker 4: Doing very good? Thanks for having me on guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't wait. There's so many things we want

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Speaker 1: to dive into it. And I know you work with

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Speaker 1: athletes in all kinds of different sports, from Tom Brady

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Speaker 1: to Justin Rose. We probably want to spend most of

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Speaker 1: our time here on pitching. But we were just talking

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Speaker 1: Tom about the connection between some of the movements in

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Speaker 1: these sports that may seem disparate to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But what have you found to be a common thread

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Speaker 1: as you work with athletes from different sports.

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Speaker 4: Well, the surprising thing when we first started getting into

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Speaker 4: high steed motion analysis in three dimensions was that rotational athletes,

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Speaker 4: throwers and strikers have the exact same kinematic sequence. Now,

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Speaker 4: the timing of the total movement might be a little different,

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Speaker 4: but as far as feet to fingertips, with the legs, hips, shoulders, arms, due,

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Speaker 4: it's all pretty much the same movement.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Tom, I got to start with this.

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Speaker 1: We talk a lot about how much we use technology.

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Speaker 1: You were at the forefront of using some of the

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Speaker 1: technology a long time ago, and the technology has only

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Speaker 1: grown better and deeper in terms of the information we

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Speaker 1: get from it. But at the same time, we're not

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Speaker 1: keeping pitchers any healthier. At this point of the baseball season,

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Speaker 1: there have been three hundred and thirty eight pitchers put

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Speaker 1: on the injured list. Now there's been eight hundred pitchers

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Speaker 1: who've pitched this year. So basically, forty two percent of

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Speaker 1: pitchers wind up on the il and we're not done

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Speaker 1: with the season yet. We're going to get close to

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of pitchers breakdown by the end of the year.

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Speaker 1: That is costing team so far this year four hundred

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Speaker 1: and forty three million dollars and twenty three thousand days

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Speaker 1: lost to pitchers who can't pitch. Please, as best you can, Tom,

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Speaker 1: explain to me why we know more about pitching and

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Speaker 1: yet we can't keep pitchers healthy.

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Speaker 4: Well, you you nailed it, And those numbers are only

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Speaker 4: going to get worse. And here's why. We've created a

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Speaker 4: generation of great athletes who's when it comes to pitching,

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Speaker 4: their arm speed and their adaptability to the what it

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Speaker 4: takes to do it for a full season kind of

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Speaker 4: precludes them being healthy. There's three basic things you look

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Speaker 4: at when you're asking a pitcher to be healthy for

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Speaker 4: a full season. His mechanical efficiency, his functional strength, and

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Speaker 4: these workloads. The one hundred pitch per game at fifteen

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Speaker 4: pitches per inning. Go all the way back to one

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Speaker 4: of my mentors when I first signed Paul Richards, he

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Speaker 4: had the Baby Birds, He had four guys in Baltimore

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Speaker 4: that won twenty games, but he had been implementing the

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Speaker 4: hundred pitch thing in the minor leagues, and that was

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Speaker 4: like fifty years ago. And they try Baseball tried, and

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Speaker 4: I have to get an a per effort. And you're

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Speaker 4: very perceptive. We have more technology now than has ever existed.

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Speaker 4: We can majure and quantify better than ever before, but

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Speaker 4: we haven't figured out with those measurables how to come

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Speaker 4: up with a deliverable to have pitchers adapt to the

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Speaker 4: armspeed we've created. Do you mind if I take another

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Speaker 4: little sidebar real quick here?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely sure?

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Speaker 4: Okay. When we did the initial study on weighted balls,

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Speaker 4: it was to fix god blen all humoral internal rotation deficity,

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Speaker 4: and we have we had a six month study. The

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Speaker 4: efficacy was awesome. The secondary benefit when we fix GOURD

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Speaker 4: was that velocity's increased, and once it got out that

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Speaker 4: weighted balls would improve velocity. But you have the numbers

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Speaker 4: better than I do. I think when I was in

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Speaker 4: the big leagues, the average big league fastball was like

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Speaker 4: eighty six and some change. Well now it's ninety two

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Speaker 4: to ninety three, and that's the good news. The bad

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Speaker 4: news is we haven't been able to figure out how

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Speaker 4: to keep that arm speed healthy. Did that make sense?

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Speaker 1: But I just absolutely it does seem the harder these

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Speaker 1: guys throw, the more they're at risk, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And there's some great athletes out there, and the same

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Speaker 4: goes with the everyday players, but the functional strength training

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Speaker 4: hasn't caught up with the ability of showing how arms

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Speaker 4: to go faster and that's to go quickly. It's going

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Speaker 4: to happen. But in this little slot we're in right now,

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Speaker 4: You're right, the incidence of injury and guys on the

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Speaker 4: you know, the injured list, it is really kind of unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: Does this also like conclude?

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's the technical side of it, but just

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Speaker 3: like body types, tall and slender, thick and stocky, when

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Speaker 3: you're evaluating these players and they go through all these

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Speaker 3: different training components, whether it's the way to.

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Speaker 2: Ball, which actually we had back in the day.

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Speaker 3: I might have had your first set of weighted baseballs

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Speaker 3: back when I was running the minor leagues with the

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Speaker 3: Angels back in the day. But is there any kind

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Speaker 3: of correlationship to this concern with arm injury just based

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Speaker 3: on body type? Is that even a consideration or does

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Speaker 3: that not even enter the equation?

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Speaker 4: Body type is a consideration, but it's more of the

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Speaker 4: height of the individual. We know that the average height

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Speaker 4: of major league pictures. Let me take a step back.

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Speaker 4: If you go to the Hall of Fame. Okay, the

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Speaker 4: average Hall of Fame picture was six feet and some

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Speaker 4: change and right around one hundred and ninety pounds whitey four. Well,

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Speaker 4: now the average height of a picture in the big

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Speaker 4: leagues is sneaking up on sixty three. We know that

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Speaker 4: a picture that is taller than six ' five he

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Speaker 4: is three years behind the same age picture that is

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Speaker 4: six ' one's. It has to do with the joint integrity, nerves,

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Speaker 4: talking to muscle, and what you're seeing. If you look

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Speaker 4: at the injuries that are occurring, it bloke down to

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Speaker 4: their mechanics pretty solid. But with workloads, the ability of

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Speaker 4: the body, especially the shoulder or any mobile joint, the

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Speaker 4: ability of the body to handle the best of one

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Speaker 4: hundred mile an hour fastball, it hasn't quite adapted to

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Speaker 4: the tree, but it's coming.

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Speaker 3: I will say that just when you get to be

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Speaker 3: that big or long, long armed, or limbed, I mean

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Speaker 3: just to coordinate the stroke, isn't that become problematic too?

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Speaker 3: Whether you're playing golf, whether you're throwing a baseball, football, whatever,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 2: Automatically I want big tall guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but isn't there like like you're saying, there's an

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Speaker 3: optimal height, there's an optimal weight in order to coordinate

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Speaker 3: all these different things. Had I had Jeff Neman with

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Speaker 3: the Rays back in the day. I love Jeff Neman.

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Speaker 3: If that boy could have stayed well and he didn't

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Speaker 3: throw that hard, I mean he did his best work,

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Speaker 3: like between eighty nine and ninety two. That's to me

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Speaker 3: again where the gun is important. What does a guy

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Speaker 3: do his best work in regards to repeating his delivery,

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Speaker 3: action on his pitch, his ability to locate. All these

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Speaker 3: things are factors for me too. But he was six

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Speaker 3: or nine, and he kept getting hurt and it was

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Speaker 3: difficult to stay well. Just based on that, and then

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Speaker 3: I just thought he of all that one of the

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Speaker 3: tall people that I've had was able to coordinate great

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Speaker 3: sink great command. He would cruise in the middle innings,

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Speaker 3: but he would He was the unicorn for me. So

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Speaker 3: I've always thought that there might be like we're describing

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Speaker 3: right on, optimal height and weight to be at to

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Speaker 3: be able to control this armstroke, repeat it consistently. Like

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Speaker 3: the term do it easily, not be the full effort.

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Speaker 3: I mean people use the word maximum effort. I always

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Speaker 3: wish I was doing giving my maximum effort. But it's

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Speaker 3: like this full effort component also where guys are bumping

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Speaker 3: and grinding to get to their number, whereas the guys

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Speaker 3: that do it easily to me, at least from a distance,

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Speaker 3: appeared to be able to repeat their pitch, their location,

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Speaker 3: stay healthy, stay well, and not be soorn between starts,

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Speaker 3: at the point that you don't have to back off

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Speaker 3: them and maybe go on ten or hundred and fifteen pitches.

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Speaker 3: I know it's a long consideration there, But does that

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Speaker 3: play into anything whatsoever at all?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, you hit a couple of buzzwords that are

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Speaker 4: really true. For every one inch of growth, it puts

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Speaker 4: the body back two months. For every five pounds of

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Speaker 4: weight gain or loss, it puts the bodies kinesthetic awareness

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Speaker 4: back two months, and we're in this battle right now

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Speaker 4: trying to coordinate tall pictures with weight, training with functional movement,

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Speaker 4: with workloads. Throwing down the mound really enhances arm speed,

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Speaker 4: but trying to decelerate that arm speed hasn't quite matched

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Speaker 4: up yet, so you can only accelerate what you can decelerate.

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Speaker 4: You're only as strong as your weakest length. And what

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Speaker 4: we're seeing right now are really good athletes that at

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Speaker 4: twenty two, twenty three, if you're six foot seven, six

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Speaker 4: foot eight, you're really just a big twelve year old. Now,

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Speaker 4: we're getting better, the research is getting better, the quantification

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Speaker 4: is getting better, but we're still not quite where we

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Speaker 4: need to be to help that tall guy adapt to

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Speaker 4: a ninety eight to one hundred and two mile an

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Speaker 4: hour fastball question.

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Speaker 3: Of you're that you're you're the Scotty director of whatever team,

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Speaker 3: and you're going to speak to your scouts as they

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Speaker 3: go out on the road in January to prepare for

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Speaker 3: the June draft. If you had to give them one

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Speaker 3: physical parameter to look at it, you're looking. We're looking

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Speaker 3: for pictures that are how much, how tall, and how heavy?

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Speaker 3: Is there any kind of like a template mental template

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Speaker 3: you could give your scouts in order to follow, because

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Speaker 3: if we get enough of these, we're going to hit

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Speaker 3: paydirt more often.

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Speaker 4: What you want to do is look for the tallest

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Speaker 4: pitcher that can walk into chew gum. Okay, and then

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Speaker 4: tell your developmental people in your in your organization, and

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Speaker 4: it's going to take three more years to get the

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Speaker 4: Randy Johnson body to the big leagues. Okay, then it will.

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Speaker 4: But even though they're throwing hard, even though they've got

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Speaker 4: great stuff, they're going to take a little longer to

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Speaker 4: be developed so that their arm speed and their arm

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Speaker 4: strength matchup with their functional mechanics and the workloads that

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Speaker 4: they're expect. You do, I don't know if you're aware,

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Speaker 4: but about I think it's almost ten years ago. Our

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Speaker 4: research showed that the only way you can kind of

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Speaker 4: monitor while we're in this new era of velocity is

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Speaker 4: pitch totals, and the game is actually aiming towards what

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Speaker 4: we predicted, where you're going to have twelve pitchers that

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Speaker 4: they'll throw one hundred plus pitches a week, but they're

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Speaker 4: going to do it one time through the lineup three

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Speaker 4: times rather than during a game. The days of the

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Speaker 4: Nolan oriance where Bobby Valentine would go out to take

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Speaker 4: Nolan out of the game and Bob would say that's

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Speaker 4: it text, and Nolan would look at it and say, no,

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Speaker 4: it's not Bobby. One of us is leaving this mouth

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Speaker 4: that it ain't going to be me those days. Those

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Speaker 4: days are over. You would know better than I would, Tom,

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Speaker 4: what is the average starting pitchers? Is it five innings? Now?

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Speaker 4: I know it's getting closer and closer to five innings

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Speaker 4: than it ever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a shade over five innings, right. Pitch

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Speaker 1: count continues to go down as well. By the way, Joe,

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Speaker 1: that was a great question about what you look for.

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Speaker 1: To me, I always look for pitchers who are good movers,

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Speaker 1: good athletes, if they played another position, if they played

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Speaker 1: another sport. I would rather have that guy who moves

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Speaker 1: well and naturally than that seventeen year old kid who

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Speaker 1: has learned how to throw, not to pitch, who's not

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Speaker 1: a great athlete and can throw ninety five miles an

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Speaker 1: hour at seventeen. Those ones scare me, so Tom, I

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Speaker 1: when we're gonna take a quick break here, when we

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Speaker 1: get back, I want to ask you about because the population,

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Speaker 1: as you know, is getting taller, and we're seeing that

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Speaker 1: in baseball, and meanwhile pitchers are throwing less. So I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about these young pitchers such as

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Speaker 1: Jodi Perez of the Marlins, who they sent down to

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Speaker 1: the minor leagues just to not pitch for a month

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Speaker 1: or so, Grayson Rodriguez of the Orioles. These are guy's

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Speaker 1: big time arms who there's governor's placed on them. Are

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Speaker 1: we doing them well by putting governors on them? Are

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Speaker 1: we too careful with these young pictures? I want to

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Speaker 1: have Tom dive into those questions right after this. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Tom House, It's a big topic. I know, and I

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Speaker 1: know that the industry has gone ultra conservative with how

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Speaker 1: they treat young pictures. And listen, I've been on this

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Speaker 1: forefront for years something that people have referred to as

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Speaker 1: the Verducci effect, where I notice young pictures I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about under twenty five who get their innings bumped up

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Speaker 1: more than thirty percent are more at risk of breaking down.

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Speaker 1: Listen to everybody's at risk of breaking down. I think

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Speaker 1: we know that by now. But I wouldn't run a

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Speaker 1: marathon if all I ran were five ks. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: go straight from five k I have to train for

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Speaker 1: that marathon. So packing on fifty seventy more innings on

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Speaker 1: a yearly basis for a young picture whose joints are

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Speaker 1: still developing, probably not a good idea. But the other

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Speaker 1: side of this Tom is there's so many governors on

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Speaker 1: these pitchers in the minor leagues. Guys are getting the

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Speaker 1: major leagues now without pitching out of a jam from

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Speaker 1: the sixth inning on, without reaching one hundred pitches, and

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Speaker 1: so they have to be taken out of games early

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Speaker 1: and have to be limited when they get to the majors.

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Speaker 1: Where do you come down here on the volume that

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Speaker 1: we're asking young pitchers to make as they develop into

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Speaker 1: major leaguers.

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Speaker 4: Well, it can be quantifying, and we actually have curriculum

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Speaker 4: and data to support. When you throw a baseball, we

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Speaker 4: can look at your mechanical efficiency, we look at your

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Speaker 4: body type like Joe was talking about, we look at

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Speaker 4: your athleticism. We also look are you pitching specific It's

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Speaker 4: the only thing you did going through high school was pitch.

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Speaker 4: If you didn't play other sports. All these kind of

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Speaker 4: mixing together and it blows down to energy in, energy out.

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Speaker 4: Glenn flies A bit of research study, it takes more

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Speaker 4: muscle strength to throw ninety five on flat ground than

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Speaker 4: it does throwing ninety five down amount and that confuses

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Speaker 4: a lot of people. But literally, the Japanese, I think,

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Speaker 4: are the best at this. They throw, throw, throw, throw,

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Speaker 4: and then throw some more. But they don't throw off

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Speaker 4: the mound that much. In youth ball over there, there

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Speaker 4: are no mounts. It's all flat ground. So eventually the

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Speaker 4: arm will adapt to whatever you ask it to do.

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Speaker 4: But what's happening because of the economics of the game.

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Speaker 4: You sign a young picture for four million bucks, ownership

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Speaker 4: is going to want to get that guy to be

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Speaker 4: producing in the big leagues as quick as possible. There

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Speaker 4: will be a time when everybody, conditioning, coaches, pitching coaches,

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Speaker 4: front office, scouts, etc. Sit down and put a time

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Speaker 4: time frame to the development of each picture in the organization.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be personally adapted. It can't be a

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Speaker 4: cookie cutting thing for everybody. So Joe asked, what does

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Speaker 4: that perfect picture look like to your scouts? Think of

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Speaker 4: Bartolo Cologne. You would never see him looking at him now,

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Speaker 4: But what did he pitched? I think he's steal I'm

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Speaker 4: be pitching. He might be fifty years old right now.

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Speaker 4: And look at Randy Johnson. Randy was in the big leagues,

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Speaker 4: but he wasn't productive until he was twenty seven to

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Speaker 4: twenty eight years old, and still is. When nerves and

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Speaker 4: muscles can get the task done between the lines and competition,

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Speaker 4: but durability comes with all the what you just mentioned.

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Speaker 4: Did you play other sport? Can your body move forward

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Speaker 4: and backward? Do you have a conditioning program that fits

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Speaker 4: your body type? It does no good for a six

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Speaker 4: foot ten kid to do a bench presis when the

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Speaker 4: joint in tech you have his shoulder is that of

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Speaker 4: a twelve year old. So it's all this information, guys

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Speaker 4: is out there, but putting it together in one unified

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Speaker 4: process that all organizations will agree upon. Good luck. That's

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Speaker 4: what I've seen. It's easy for me to sit back

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Speaker 4: and look what's going on out there because I live

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Speaker 4: in this information and instruction bubble. I have all the

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Speaker 4: access to technology and I can experience experiment with whatever

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Speaker 4: we want. It's doable, but I'm not sure the makeup

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Speaker 4: of the game will have it happen in the short term.

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Speaker 3: You talk about Bartolo bartol is one of the best

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Speaker 3: athletes I've had on the field. I worked with Bartolo.

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Speaker 3: I mean he looked one way, quick feed, covered first base,

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Speaker 3: great defender, great move to first base, and he could

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Speaker 3: hit a little bit. He was just a big guy.

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Speaker 3: I totally understand that, and I do agree. You just

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Speaker 3: don't know what the package is going to look like

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Speaker 3: that's going to be successful. But there's got to be

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Speaker 3: some kind of a template.

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Speaker 2: I asked my guy used to go look at it.

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Speaker 3: Just listening to all this, at what point does observation

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Speaker 3: skills experience enter into this. I mean just I liked

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Speaker 3: my data, but I've also liked my eyes. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was trained to do a certain thing at the

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Speaker 3: young age as a scout, and we didn't have the

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Speaker 3: benefit of all of this.

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Speaker 2: Biomechanical breakdown.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Benny Hines got into this a little bit

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Speaker 3: back in the day with hitting in the early nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 3: as it began to blossom, and I was starting to

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Speaker 3: hear stuff like this doctor Harrison with the eyes and

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Speaker 3: vision kind of training that became popular, and of course

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Speaker 3: doctor Ken Ravisa and Harvey Dorfman was just the mental

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Speaker 3: skills breathing in the moment and how that led us

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Speaker 3: to be better what we did and more efficient. Again,

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Speaker 3: at some point, I still believe in everything you're talking

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Speaker 3: abou one hundred percent, but also I believe in eyeballs

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Speaker 3: and experience and handling each case differently because you just

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Speaker 3: don't know. You just don't know what's going on inside

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Speaker 3: and when that body's going to break down, and there's

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Speaker 3: so many variables involved in this situation. So for me,

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Speaker 3: the best way to do all this, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: is to do exactly consider everything that you're talking about,

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Speaker 3: but also consider your eyeballs. I've had, like given in

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Speaker 3: the book, Tommy was able to research. I permitted Bobby

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Speaker 3: Kipper to throw one hundred and forty pitches in a

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Speaker 3: rookie league game in Salem, Oregon several years ago, and

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Speaker 3: Bobby went on to a really good major league career.

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Speaker 3: I was never hamstrung by my front offices by saying,

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Speaker 3: somebody can't.

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Speaker 2: You can't you have to pull somebody after so many pitches,

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Speaker 2: even on a minor league level.

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Speaker 3: And you were able to watch and was coming out

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Speaker 3: of his delivery as he starting to try to overthrow pitches.

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Speaker 3: Quite frankly, something like that. Was he just coming up

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Speaker 3: in his own he had been down in his own

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Speaker 3: like things that you say, Is there any in your mind?

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Speaker 3: Is there any substance to that to combine everything you're

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Speaker 3: talking about with just good old baseball acumen, just based

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Speaker 3: on experience watching somebody throw a baseball, all of a

391
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Speaker 3: sudden he's throwing it differently, and this might be the

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Speaker 3: time the plumb is an example, and not necessarily make

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Speaker 3: it a hundred pitch exercise.

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Speaker 4: Tom, I'm going to tell you right now, he can

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Speaker 4: ask more questions in one.

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Speaker 1: Sentence, so I make questions.

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Speaker 4: You're dead on, Joe. The one thing that artificial intelligence

398
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Speaker 4: can't do is have the benefit of experience. They can

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Speaker 4: look at numbers and crank like. But experience leads to knowledge,

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Speaker 4: leads to wisdom, and that's what you've got, call it,

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Speaker 4: call it baseball smarts. Artificial intelligence can't do that. So

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Speaker 4: let's take the fact that you are. You have an

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Speaker 4: experienced on You have seen a whole bunch of things

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Speaker 4: that are artificial intelligence will never see. Hold that in place.

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Speaker 4: In your long question you mentioned a few things. There's

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Speaker 4: four things that keep an athlete healthy and productive. His

407
00:23:06,038 --> 00:23:11,918
Speaker 4: biomechanical efficiency is functional strength is metal, emotional makeup, and

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Speaker 4: nutrition and sleep for recovery. Those are the four pillars

409
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Speaker 4: of health and performance for an athlete at any level,

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Speaker 4: and we are getting better and better at each one

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Speaker 4: of those, but very few individuals or organizations have put

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Speaker 4: them together in a program that is personally adapted, not

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Speaker 4: cookie cutting throughout the organization. So there's one set of rules,

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Speaker 4: but there's a million interpretations, and it's really hard to

415
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Speaker 4: put that on development staff that they have to look

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Speaker 4: at each kid differently, and the organizations that do where

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Speaker 4: it's personally adaptive and all their instruction is the function

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Speaker 4: of what they need to work on. You can have

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Speaker 4: the best athlete in the world that doesn't have metal

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Speaker 4: emotional makeup and he's going to look like his mechanics

421
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Speaker 4: suck and you can't throw strikes. You can have a

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Speaker 4: kid that's throwing hard that can't throw it over the plate.

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Speaker 4: You can have a kid that throws it over the

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Speaker 4: plate but doesn't throw hard enough for these effective velocity.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the great thing about baseball is that there

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Speaker 4: are so many variables that there's a way for anybody

427
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Speaker 4: if they put their pieces together. I'm a perfect example.

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Speaker 4: I got to the big leagues with an eighty three

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Speaker 4: mile on hour fastball. I wouldn't even be able to

430
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Speaker 4: play in college in today's game, but I threw a

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Speaker 4: curveball for a strike. And Warren Spahn said, there's good

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Speaker 4: curveball's hitters, but nobody hits a good curveball. So I

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Speaker 4: gave up on velocity when I was seventeen or eighteen

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00:24:45,958 --> 00:24:49,278
Speaker 4: years old and started hitting the Nassas with a curveball.

435
00:24:49,598 --> 00:24:51,438
Speaker 4: And it took me forever to get to the big leagues,

436
00:24:51,438 --> 00:24:53,438
Speaker 4: but I got there. Did that make sense what I

437
00:24:53,518 --> 00:24:53,878
Speaker 4: just said?

438
00:24:53,998 --> 00:24:56,958
Speaker 1: Of course, yeah it does. And Joe, it really reminds

439
00:24:57,038 --> 00:24:58,838
Speaker 1: me that I know what you've said. A lot here

440
00:24:59,038 --> 00:25:02,838
Speaker 1: is who's doing the teaching right. We have a lot

441
00:25:02,878 --> 00:25:05,838
Speaker 1: of the instructors now I call them instructors because they

442
00:25:06,158 --> 00:25:10,158
Speaker 1: come armed with their certificates and technology. But there's more

443
00:25:10,278 --> 00:25:13,718
Speaker 1: to being a major league pitcher in this case than

444
00:25:14,198 --> 00:25:17,078
Speaker 1: your spin rate than your velocity. Garrett Cole said it

445
00:25:17,118 --> 00:25:19,358
Speaker 1: really well the other day. The Yankees pitcher said, listen,

446
00:25:19,438 --> 00:25:24,118
Speaker 1: everybody wants that one pitch with a super spin rate,

447
00:25:24,878 --> 00:25:27,598
Speaker 1: the right spin access. They want their one pitch to

448
00:25:27,678 --> 00:25:30,918
Speaker 1: get on pitching Ninja Twitter, But what about pitching? It's

449
00:25:30,958 --> 00:25:34,198
Speaker 1: the difference between throwing and pitching. And I think what

450
00:25:34,238 --> 00:25:36,718
Speaker 1: you just did, Tom is very eloquently. You talked about

451
00:25:36,718 --> 00:25:43,958
Speaker 1: the difference between knowledge and wisdom, and with experience comes wisdom.

452
00:25:44,438 --> 00:25:48,238
Speaker 4: No, you're dead on, and I'll take it one step further.

453
00:25:48,758 --> 00:25:51,398
Speaker 4: We live in an outcome world and everybody's trying to

454
00:25:51,478 --> 00:25:55,358
Speaker 4: keep their kid or their athlete from failing. You will

455
00:25:55,438 --> 00:25:58,878
Speaker 4: learn more from your failures if you treat failure as

456
00:25:58,878 --> 00:26:02,918
Speaker 4: a learning experience. We don't give kids permission to fail

457
00:26:02,958 --> 00:26:05,878
Speaker 4: the same way every time. You've got to learn from

458
00:26:05,918 --> 00:26:09,878
Speaker 4: your screw ups. But because kids are rushed through the

459
00:26:09,918 --> 00:26:14,318
Speaker 4: minor leagues now, they're literally and I think Joe said

460
00:26:14,318 --> 00:26:17,238
Speaker 4: it when we first started this get together, you got

461
00:26:17,238 --> 00:26:19,878
Speaker 4: guys in the big leagues that are not really prepared

462
00:26:19,918 --> 00:26:21,638
Speaker 4: to pitch in the big leagues. And I say the

463
00:26:21,678 --> 00:26:25,278
Speaker 4: word pitch. They can throw, they can throw one hundred

464
00:26:25,318 --> 00:26:29,518
Speaker 4: and two miles an hour, but hitters have adjusted to

465
00:26:29,598 --> 00:26:31,838
Speaker 4: one hundred and two miles an hour. And I hope

466
00:26:31,878 --> 00:26:36,198
Speaker 4: you notice that there's pictures on all staffs in the

467
00:26:36,198 --> 00:26:38,998
Speaker 4: big leagues now that are learning how to get people

468
00:26:39,038 --> 00:26:42,198
Speaker 4: out with a changeup. And it's because to hit one

469
00:26:42,238 --> 00:26:45,398
Speaker 4: hundred and two mile our fastball, you pretty much have

470
00:26:45,518 --> 00:26:48,718
Speaker 4: to sell out. Anybody can hit a hundred mile in

471
00:26:48,798 --> 00:26:52,478
Speaker 4: our fastball in the big league now, And the trick is,

472
00:26:52,518 --> 00:26:55,038
Speaker 4: can you change speeds off of that fastball so the

473
00:26:55,038 --> 00:26:57,798
Speaker 4: guy can't go all out and make contact.

474
00:26:58,038 --> 00:27:00,318
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's pitching. I mean you said it. Well, we're

475
00:27:00,358 --> 00:27:03,198
Speaker 1: in an age now where there are fewer fastballs thrown

476
00:27:03,438 --> 00:27:06,118
Speaker 1: in a major league game than at any point in

477
00:27:06,158 --> 00:27:09,718
Speaker 1: the game's history, and we also have the highest velocity.

478
00:27:10,158 --> 00:27:12,118
Speaker 1: And that's the case because of what you just said

479
00:27:12,158 --> 00:27:16,718
Speaker 1: that hitters have adjusted a pitch. A fastball ninety eight

480
00:27:16,878 --> 00:27:21,518
Speaker 1: and above has a higher batting average than an average slider.

481
00:27:22,398 --> 00:27:26,358
Speaker 4: Yes. Yes, Julio Franco said he could hit a bullet.

482
00:27:27,198 --> 00:27:29,998
Speaker 4: If you put him in a game where he can

483
00:27:30,078 --> 00:27:31,598
Speaker 4: see the bullet, he could get the bat on it.

484
00:27:32,118 --> 00:27:34,558
Speaker 4: But if you're mixing a break and ball and a changeup,

485
00:27:34,638 --> 00:27:36,598
Speaker 4: he's got no chance to hit a ping pong ball.

486
00:27:37,118 --> 00:27:39,078
Speaker 1: He could probably hit a bullet still, and he's about

487
00:27:39,078 --> 00:27:40,318
Speaker 1: fifty two years old.

488
00:27:41,638 --> 00:27:42,238
Speaker 4: Exactly.

489
00:27:42,678 --> 00:27:44,478
Speaker 1: Hey, we're going to take a quick break here when

490
00:27:44,478 --> 00:27:46,478
Speaker 1: we get back. I know we in our book, the

491
00:27:46,518 --> 00:27:49,358
Speaker 1: Book of Joe is full of what I call maddenisms,

492
00:27:49,678 --> 00:27:53,638
Speaker 1: the wit and wisdom of Joe Madden and Tom House

493
00:27:53,758 --> 00:27:56,478
Speaker 1: is of a similar vein. I'm going to call these

494
00:27:57,038 --> 00:28:01,238
Speaker 1: house rules. So we'll take a quick tour among the

495
00:28:01,278 --> 00:28:16,158
Speaker 1: house rules. Our guest is Tom House, guru of all

496
00:28:16,238 --> 00:28:20,278
Speaker 1: things pitching and other sports as well. And Tom, you know,

497
00:28:20,358 --> 00:28:22,718
Speaker 1: going through your Twitter feed, I love some of these

498
00:28:23,238 --> 00:28:25,278
Speaker 1: pearls of wisdom that you have out there, So I'd

499
00:28:25,318 --> 00:28:27,238
Speaker 1: like to throw some out here and have you and

500
00:28:27,638 --> 00:28:30,478
Speaker 1: Joe kind of respond to what I call house rules.

501
00:28:31,278 --> 00:28:34,958
Speaker 1: How about this one. The travel ball industry is optimized

502
00:28:34,958 --> 00:28:38,358
Speaker 1: for people to make a living, not for developing players.

503
00:28:38,918 --> 00:28:41,118
Speaker 1: I know that's a whole nother show, Tom, but real

504
00:28:41,198 --> 00:28:44,718
Speaker 1: quickly the thought behind that, and real quickly.

505
00:28:44,478 --> 00:28:47,398
Speaker 4: With an answer. I don't deny anybody the right to

506
00:28:47,438 --> 00:28:51,078
Speaker 4: make a living, but travel ball is all about money.

507
00:28:51,198 --> 00:28:54,038
Speaker 4: It's not about developing developing and a young pitcher or

508
00:28:54,078 --> 00:28:56,998
Speaker 4: a young hitter. And the kids get really good at

509
00:28:57,038 --> 00:29:00,438
Speaker 4: being travel ball players, and you said early in this

510
00:29:00,638 --> 00:29:03,238
Speaker 4: get together that they don't know how to play the game.

511
00:29:04,118 --> 00:29:07,038
Speaker 4: So while I understand the need to make a living,

512
00:29:07,118 --> 00:29:09,238
Speaker 4: it should not be at the expense of a young

513
00:29:09,278 --> 00:29:11,158
Speaker 4: player's health and development.

514
00:29:11,358 --> 00:29:14,478
Speaker 3: I'm totally against the travel concept. I much prefer all

515
00:29:14,518 --> 00:29:17,158
Speaker 3: star teams made in cities. I'd rather see leagues and

516
00:29:17,198 --> 00:29:21,158
Speaker 3: cities and towns and counties whatever, you earned a right

517
00:29:21,198 --> 00:29:23,678
Speaker 3: to be on an all star team and then play

518
00:29:23,758 --> 00:29:26,358
Speaker 3: for your city, for your group, and not become a

519
00:29:26,358 --> 00:29:29,638
Speaker 3: mercenary at such a young age. You're attempting to become

520
00:29:29,718 --> 00:29:34,358
Speaker 3: best in show. In these particular showcases, there's no team

521
00:29:34,398 --> 00:29:37,318
Speaker 3: element whatsoever. And like you said, the game's not being tough,

522
00:29:37,358 --> 00:29:38,918
Speaker 3: and I think parents are losing a lot of money

523
00:29:38,998 --> 00:29:41,158
Speaker 3: quite frankly to say that their kids on.

524
00:29:41,118 --> 00:29:41,758
Speaker 2: A travel team.

525
00:29:41,958 --> 00:29:44,118
Speaker 3: I just I really don't like the concept at all.

526
00:29:44,158 --> 00:29:46,318
Speaker 3: You have a lot of friends that are involved in it,

527
00:29:46,358 --> 00:29:47,998
Speaker 3: that are running these things, so they talk to me

528
00:29:47,998 --> 00:29:50,038
Speaker 3: about it very and they're very jacked up about it,

529
00:29:50,078 --> 00:29:52,078
Speaker 3: and they can't wait to tell me about it. But

530
00:29:52,078 --> 00:29:53,758
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, man, I would I

531
00:29:53,998 --> 00:29:57,558
Speaker 3: love the idea of playing for your town, your alma mater,

532
00:29:57,958 --> 00:30:00,158
Speaker 3: win for the group, win as a group, play the

533
00:30:00,198 --> 00:30:03,518
Speaker 3: game properly, and I'd much prefer that method of parents.

534
00:30:03,558 --> 00:30:04,958
Speaker 2: Please your money, you're here.

535
00:30:05,078 --> 00:30:06,198
Speaker 4: I agree, one hundred percent.

536
00:30:06,638 --> 00:30:09,718
Speaker 1: I love that. Here's another one speaking of parents, because

537
00:30:09,718 --> 00:30:13,238
Speaker 1: we know they're under a lot of pressure because you know,

538
00:30:13,278 --> 00:30:16,318
Speaker 1: they see other people having their kid, you know, spend

539
00:30:16,438 --> 00:30:18,238
Speaker 1: three hundred and four hundred dollars on a bat and

540
00:30:18,238 --> 00:30:20,358
Speaker 1: sign up for travel ball and think they need to

541
00:30:20,438 --> 00:30:23,918
Speaker 1: keep up to quote unquote compete. Here's another house rule.

542
00:30:24,638 --> 00:30:29,238
Speaker 1: Your eight u athlete doesn't need an offseason throwing program

543
00:30:29,278 --> 00:30:30,758
Speaker 1: for max velocity.

544
00:30:31,318 --> 00:30:33,998
Speaker 4: You got that right. An eight year old doesn't even

545
00:30:33,998 --> 00:30:37,918
Speaker 4: know what planety's on. So the bottom line, an eight

546
00:30:37,958 --> 00:30:42,958
Speaker 4: year old should play all sports in season and not specialized.

547
00:30:43,478 --> 00:30:46,558
Speaker 4: Another problem we have with travel teams and all these

548
00:30:46,598 --> 00:30:51,158
Speaker 4: showcases is kids play baseball year round when they should

549
00:30:51,238 --> 00:30:55,998
Speaker 4: be playing all sports. The neuroplasticity of focusing on one

550
00:30:56,118 --> 00:31:01,198
Speaker 4: sport kind of precludes anything happening. If if he can

551
00:31:01,238 --> 00:31:05,198
Speaker 4: get out of high school with all one sport, if

552
00:31:05,198 --> 00:31:07,438
Speaker 4: he gets hurt when he's playing college or pro ball,

553
00:31:07,798 --> 00:31:11,478
Speaker 4: he's got nothing to pull from for the athleticism required

554
00:31:11,478 --> 00:31:15,758
Speaker 4: to use a different set of nerves. So my suggestion

555
00:31:16,518 --> 00:31:21,798
Speaker 4: and my wish for all sports is you play all sports,

556
00:31:22,198 --> 00:31:26,118
Speaker 4: so you have to specialize, and that takes place senior year,

557
00:31:26,358 --> 00:31:27,878
Speaker 4: freshman year in college.

558
00:31:28,198 --> 00:31:29,438
Speaker 2: One hundred percent agree with that.

559
00:31:29,518 --> 00:31:32,358
Speaker 3: Also, I mean the fact that you do specialize at

560
00:31:32,438 --> 00:31:35,958
Speaker 3: such a young age is so ridiculous to me. Just

561
00:31:36,038 --> 00:31:38,678
Speaker 3: even coming down to regarding all the points that you

562
00:31:38,758 --> 00:31:42,398
Speaker 3: made there obviously wonderful, but just playing for different coaches,

563
00:31:42,878 --> 00:31:46,878
Speaker 3: differ different coaches, different sports, it's different, man. You know,

564
00:31:46,918 --> 00:31:49,398
Speaker 3: my football coaches are pretty tough, not that my baseball

565
00:31:49,398 --> 00:31:51,678
Speaker 3: coaches weren't, but it's a different kind of tough. And

566
00:31:51,758 --> 00:31:54,118
Speaker 3: my basketball coaches made me run till I wanted a pute,

567
00:31:54,518 --> 00:31:54,758
Speaker 3: you know.

568
00:31:54,918 --> 00:31:56,878
Speaker 2: And then you're getting these different.

569
00:31:57,318 --> 00:32:00,078
Speaker 3: Philosophies from these people, and you have to adapt and

570
00:32:00,118 --> 00:32:02,158
Speaker 3: to just as a as an athlete at a young

571
00:32:02,198 --> 00:32:04,998
Speaker 3: age to a personality that diferent coaches and what they

572
00:32:05,398 --> 00:32:07,798
Speaker 3: are going to bring to bear, and you're gonna learn differently.

573
00:32:07,878 --> 00:32:12,638
Speaker 3: So beyond everything else, it's just a matter of tapping

574
00:32:12,718 --> 00:32:16,158
Speaker 3: into different theories, different thoughts, different philosophies, And like you're

575
00:32:16,158 --> 00:32:19,398
Speaker 3: talking about body movement and just not getting stale. I mean,

576
00:32:19,398 --> 00:32:21,718
Speaker 3: my god, you just get you get stale just by

577
00:32:21,758 --> 00:32:24,678
Speaker 3: doing one thing all the time. And all this stuff

578
00:32:24,758 --> 00:32:26,398
Speaker 3: is being done for the benefit of the parent more

579
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:26,798
Speaker 3: than it.

580
00:32:26,718 --> 00:32:29,278
Speaker 2: Is being done for the benefit of the athlete.

581
00:32:28,958 --> 00:32:33,078
Speaker 4: And unfortunately the parents are made to believe that if

582
00:32:33,118 --> 00:32:36,958
Speaker 4: they don't afford their child this opportunity, he's not going

583
00:32:37,038 --> 00:32:39,118
Speaker 4: to get college scholarship. He's not going to be seen

584
00:32:39,198 --> 00:32:42,958
Speaker 4: by a scout. If your kid pops in ninety five,

585
00:32:43,478 --> 00:32:45,558
Speaker 4: everybody in baseball is going to know he pops the

586
00:32:45,638 --> 00:32:48,118
Speaker 4: ninety five. So don't panic about it.

587
00:32:48,518 --> 00:32:51,318
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, the better of dropping drop them off at

588
00:32:51,358 --> 00:32:52,238
Speaker 3: the library instead.

589
00:32:52,278 --> 00:32:53,278
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Tommy, I'm stuck.

590
00:32:53,598 --> 00:32:56,118
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say. There's also you know, we

591
00:32:56,158 --> 00:32:58,398
Speaker 1: don't need to see kids at eleven and twelve being

592
00:32:58,478 --> 00:33:02,198
Speaker 1: pitchers only, never mind specializing in one sport. Specializing in

593
00:33:02,238 --> 00:33:05,438
Speaker 1: one position, Your kid is going to get better no

594
00:33:05,478 --> 00:33:08,558
Speaker 1: matter what the discipline or sport is, when there is

595
00:33:08,718 --> 00:33:11,678
Speaker 1: joy attached to it. We have to make sure there

596
00:33:11,798 --> 00:33:16,078
Speaker 1: is joy that this is not work for adolescents when

597
00:33:16,118 --> 00:33:19,478
Speaker 1: they're quote unquote playing a sport. And tom what I

598
00:33:19,558 --> 00:33:25,958
Speaker 1: see is the training methodologies which we can see online

599
00:33:25,958 --> 00:33:28,758
Speaker 1: now for all these major league players and they're grown men,

600
00:33:29,678 --> 00:33:33,438
Speaker 1: is trickling down to adolescents and high school players. You

601
00:33:33,478 --> 00:33:36,558
Speaker 1: talked about weighted balls. You know, there's probably a danger

602
00:33:36,598 --> 00:33:39,158
Speaker 1: with somebody trying to adopt a waited ball program for

603
00:33:39,198 --> 00:33:41,638
Speaker 1: someone who's twenty one twenty two when they're eleven or

604
00:33:41,678 --> 00:33:42,558
Speaker 1: twelve years old.

605
00:33:42,958 --> 00:33:48,678
Speaker 4: No, you're exactly right. And unfortunately, like I heard the

606
00:33:48,718 --> 00:33:54,958
Speaker 4: other day, a parent was saying, everybody's their fastballs get

607
00:33:55,038 --> 00:33:57,958
Speaker 4: better when they recover from Atommy john Why don't we

608
00:33:58,158 --> 00:34:01,838
Speaker 4: just give all our kids Tommy Johnson go from there. Well,

609
00:34:01,878 --> 00:34:07,758
Speaker 4: what they don't realize is that the post surgery throwing

610
00:34:07,838 --> 00:34:11,598
Speaker 4: program and conditioning program from when Tommy john can be

611
00:34:11,638 --> 00:34:15,678
Speaker 4: done on the front side in a prehabilitative mode, and

612
00:34:15,718 --> 00:34:18,798
Speaker 4: you'll never have the Tommy john So the information is

613
00:34:18,878 --> 00:34:22,918
Speaker 4: out there. The problem is they get focused. And Joe,

614
00:34:22,958 --> 00:34:24,998
Speaker 4: I'm going to give you some kudos here. You just

615
00:34:25,598 --> 00:34:30,838
Speaker 4: explain what long term adaptive learning is. Kids learn to learn,

616
00:34:31,198 --> 00:34:35,078
Speaker 4: they learn, and they learn to relearn, and in their experience,

617
00:34:35,758 --> 00:34:39,638
Speaker 4: they will be across many coaches, and the style of

618
00:34:39,718 --> 00:34:42,758
Speaker 4: the coaching and the style of the learning don't often

619
00:34:42,878 --> 00:34:45,918
Speaker 4: match up. But a youngster will learn just as much

620
00:34:45,998 --> 00:34:49,198
Speaker 4: from that basketball coach that made you pew as you

621
00:34:49,238 --> 00:34:52,238
Speaker 4: will from the football coach that made you tough, as

622
00:34:52,238 --> 00:34:55,318
Speaker 4: you will from the pitching coach who taught you how

623
00:34:55,358 --> 00:34:59,638
Speaker 4: to have touch with a changeup. But what happens if

624
00:34:59,678 --> 00:35:03,518
Speaker 4: you zero in on one sport and one set of

625
00:35:03,558 --> 00:35:07,998
Speaker 4: coach and one process. You're going to be standing on

626
00:35:07,998 --> 00:35:09,838
Speaker 4: one leg when you need to be standing on too.

627
00:35:10,558 --> 00:35:12,238
Speaker 2: Yes, I totally agree with that, obviously.

628
00:35:12,278 --> 00:35:14,638
Speaker 3: And as you're just saying that, it's just thinking of

629
00:35:15,038 --> 00:35:17,318
Speaker 3: litany of the different coaches I've had in different sports

630
00:35:17,798 --> 00:35:20,598
Speaker 3: and the communicators, the guys that wanted to do it

631
00:35:20,598 --> 00:35:26,358
Speaker 3: through intimidation, the positive ones, the negative ones, the ones

632
00:35:26,398 --> 00:35:28,798
Speaker 3: you did not even want to engage in conversation because

633
00:35:28,958 --> 00:35:31,198
Speaker 3: you couldn't, and the ones you just could not wait

634
00:35:31,238 --> 00:35:33,958
Speaker 3: to speak with. It's all over the map. It's all

635
00:35:33,958 --> 00:35:36,238
Speaker 3: over the map. And that's the stuff to me that's

636
00:35:36,278 --> 00:35:39,758
Speaker 3: really educational. That's the stuff that permits me to sit

637
00:35:39,798 --> 00:35:41,998
Speaker 3: here and talk to you right now more than anything

638
00:35:41,998 --> 00:35:45,198
Speaker 3: else that ever did. It's coach Bob rud at Lafayette,

639
00:35:45,358 --> 00:35:48,838
Speaker 3: best communicator ever and coach Adam simonskyt Hyston High School

640
00:35:49,198 --> 00:35:52,518
Speaker 3: that made major run Slate Banks after a Friday night

641
00:35:52,598 --> 00:35:55,358
Speaker 3: loss on a Saturday morning. So it's all over the map.

642
00:35:55,838 --> 00:35:59,998
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's framing and reframing from the instruction side to

643
00:36:00,158 --> 00:36:05,518
Speaker 4: the student side. Socrates learn more from his students than

644
00:36:05,518 --> 00:36:10,078
Speaker 4: his students learn from him. And Socratest asked questions because

645
00:36:10,078 --> 00:36:14,358
Speaker 4: he realized that his teaching style may not be the

646
00:36:14,998 --> 00:36:19,238
Speaker 4: same received the same to his various students. But when

647
00:36:19,238 --> 00:36:23,198
Speaker 4: you ask questions, you get this communication process. Someone has

648
00:36:23,238 --> 00:36:26,078
Speaker 4: to reframe, and more often than not, it's going to

649
00:36:26,078 --> 00:36:28,958
Speaker 4: be a coach. But there are times when the athlete

650
00:36:29,478 --> 00:36:32,278
Speaker 4: has to reframe to what the coach is actually trying

651
00:36:32,318 --> 00:36:35,078
Speaker 4: to say. Don sim were telling me not to hang

652
00:36:35,118 --> 00:36:38,398
Speaker 4: a curveball was his way of saying, throw a good curveball.

653
00:36:40,878 --> 00:36:41,998
Speaker 2: Well, that's like that.

654
00:36:41,998 --> 00:36:44,278
Speaker 3: That's like Adam Simiski told me on the sidelines playing

655
00:36:44,318 --> 00:36:45,598
Speaker 3: Chica Lamey in a really big game.

656
00:36:45,638 --> 00:36:48,038
Speaker 2: I seen your whatever you do, don't throw an interception.

657
00:36:48,358 --> 00:36:51,878
Speaker 3: Yes, sure enough, that next play was right into the

658
00:36:51,958 --> 00:36:52,718
Speaker 3: safety's hands.

659
00:36:52,758 --> 00:36:55,998
Speaker 4: Exactly because here your brain can't edit good for bad.

660
00:36:56,078 --> 00:37:00,158
Speaker 1: It just speaking of coaching, I think, Joe, you'll like

661
00:37:00,238 --> 00:37:02,598
Speaker 1: this latest house rule.

662
00:37:02,758 --> 00:37:03,118
Speaker 2: Okay.

663
00:37:03,238 --> 00:37:05,358
Speaker 1: The most powerful the thing you can say as a

664
00:37:05,358 --> 00:37:09,318
Speaker 1: coach is I was wrong. I learned new information that

665
00:37:09,398 --> 00:37:10,078
Speaker 1: changed my mind.

666
00:37:10,758 --> 00:37:13,598
Speaker 4: It's so hard. Can I expand on that a little bit? Tom?

667
00:37:13,638 --> 00:37:14,798
Speaker 1: Absolutely sure.

668
00:37:14,958 --> 00:37:19,318
Speaker 4: The greatest right we have is the right to change,

669
00:37:19,558 --> 00:37:24,318
Speaker 4: and the hardest thing to do is change especially if

670
00:37:24,358 --> 00:37:29,758
Speaker 4: you've been successful. So it's a very humbling thing to

671
00:37:29,958 --> 00:37:34,078
Speaker 4: know that you've got education, you've got experience, et cetera,

672
00:37:34,118 --> 00:37:37,558
Speaker 4: et cetera. If someone comes along that has something better

673
00:37:37,598 --> 00:37:41,118
Speaker 4: than you do, if you can't adapt to, what's better

674
00:37:41,158 --> 00:37:44,438
Speaker 4: than your offering your tread and water until you die.

675
00:37:45,038 --> 00:37:47,798
Speaker 3: Even in the book, I talk about my real bad

676
00:37:47,838 --> 00:37:52,078
Speaker 3: moment in Midland, Texas where I put classified ads on

677
00:37:52,118 --> 00:37:54,558
Speaker 3: the back of bathroom stalls and above toilets, and god,

678
00:37:54,598 --> 00:37:56,998
Speaker 3: I just really wish I could have had that moment back.

679
00:37:57,038 --> 00:38:00,118
Speaker 3: And then not many years ago, one of the players

680
00:38:00,158 --> 00:38:01,998
Speaker 3: in Tampa Bay, I got them in the back room

681
00:38:02,078 --> 00:38:05,718
Speaker 3: and here's him of not caring, not housling, all this

682
00:38:05,758 --> 00:38:08,878
Speaker 3: other kind of stuff, and that if you don't apologize,

683
00:38:10,078 --> 00:38:12,318
Speaker 3: I'm not going to put you back in the lineup. Wow,

684
00:38:12,518 --> 00:38:14,958
Speaker 3: was I wrong? Call him in a couple of days

685
00:38:14,998 --> 00:38:17,998
Speaker 3: after that being we apologized them for being so stupid.

686
00:38:18,598 --> 00:38:22,238
Speaker 2: Yeah, you when you know you've screwed up, you've screwed up.

687
00:38:22,638 --> 00:38:26,798
Speaker 3: And obviously since that moment on that particular player and

688
00:38:26,798 --> 00:38:27,318
Speaker 3: I have got.

689
00:38:27,158 --> 00:38:31,678
Speaker 2: The greatest relationship ever. But yeah, I cannot agree more.

690
00:38:31,718 --> 00:38:34,318
Speaker 3: Because we want we want the accountability from our guys,

691
00:38:34,318 --> 00:38:37,238
Speaker 3: our players, and then we don't want to be accountable ourselves.

692
00:38:37,238 --> 00:38:41,158
Speaker 3: And that's Oftentimes there'll be in situations where coaching staff's

693
00:38:41,198 --> 00:38:44,638
Speaker 3: coaches will be critical of the group of the players,

694
00:38:45,318 --> 00:38:47,798
Speaker 3: and then they don't even recognize these deficiencies in our

695
00:38:47,838 --> 00:38:53,118
Speaker 3: own methods. So yeah, it's incredible. Sometimes you get so

696
00:38:53,238 --> 00:38:56,998
Speaker 3: much power that you feel your above all that stuff,

697
00:38:56,998 --> 00:39:00,398
Speaker 3: but you're not. And I agree the accountability component really

698
00:39:00,798 --> 00:39:04,798
Speaker 3: kind of galvanized. Can galvanize relationship when you're a player?

699
00:39:05,038 --> 00:39:05,758
Speaker 4: I agree.

700
00:39:06,118 --> 00:39:08,358
Speaker 1: One more house rule for you here. This is an

701
00:39:08,398 --> 00:39:12,238
Speaker 1: interesting one. Most pictures don't sprint as much as they

702
00:39:12,238 --> 00:39:16,998
Speaker 1: should want more Velo sprint more forward, end backwards.

703
00:39:17,598 --> 00:39:22,638
Speaker 4: There's the key. The backwards is the key. Sprint work

704
00:39:22,918 --> 00:39:28,278
Speaker 4: is great, but sprinting backwards with the same parody of

705
00:39:28,398 --> 00:39:32,358
Speaker 4: effort in distancing time will improve your fastball two to

706
00:39:32,438 --> 00:39:36,358
Speaker 4: three miles an hour just balancing off your decelerators in

707
00:39:36,398 --> 00:39:37,158
Speaker 4: your legs.

708
00:39:37,678 --> 00:39:39,918
Speaker 1: You know what, Tom, That reminds me of a question here.

709
00:39:40,758 --> 00:39:43,798
Speaker 1: Roger Clemens used to run so much. He once told

710
00:39:43,878 --> 00:39:47,318
Speaker 1: me he could tell you the location of every crack

711
00:39:47,398 --> 00:39:50,078
Speaker 1: in the sidewalk next to the Charles River in Boston.

712
00:39:51,238 --> 00:39:53,998
Speaker 1: A few pictures run now And I've talked to Garrett

713
00:39:53,998 --> 00:39:57,158
Speaker 1: Cole about this and he thinks it's kind of a

714
00:39:57,198 --> 00:40:00,798
Speaker 1: waste of energy. I am max, sure's are up until

715
00:40:00,798 --> 00:40:02,558
Speaker 1: I don't know if he still does. It's always been

716
00:40:02,598 --> 00:40:05,678
Speaker 1: a big runner, but very few pictures compared to what

717
00:40:05,838 --> 00:40:10,278
Speaker 1: you were playing. Especially Tom do a lot of running.

718
00:40:10,638 --> 00:40:11,918
Speaker 1: Where do you stand on running?

719
00:40:13,318 --> 00:40:16,638
Speaker 4: Call it running, call it biking, call it whatever you want.

720
00:40:16,718 --> 00:40:21,998
Speaker 4: You need to have aerobic activity and anaerobic activity, and

721
00:40:22,038 --> 00:40:24,758
Speaker 4: if you want to do it running, that's great. You

722
00:40:24,798 --> 00:40:27,358
Speaker 4: can take care of it on a rowing machine. You

723
00:40:27,398 --> 00:40:31,598
Speaker 4: can take care of it on a stationary bike. Aerobic

724
00:40:31,678 --> 00:40:34,358
Speaker 4: activity is getting your heart rate and your breathing rate

725
00:40:34,518 --> 00:40:39,318
Speaker 4: up that low intensity, conversation intensity for twenty to forty

726
00:40:39,358 --> 00:40:42,438
Speaker 4: five minutes, three days a week, and it's on your

727
00:40:42,478 --> 00:40:45,598
Speaker 4: own time. And it's not for making you faster, it's

728
00:40:45,638 --> 00:40:50,878
Speaker 4: for recovery. It's flushing lactic acid. Anaerobic activity is what

729
00:40:51,238 --> 00:40:54,758
Speaker 4: athletes should do every day they're in a uniform, and

730
00:40:54,798 --> 00:40:57,718
Speaker 4: that's for VO two max the size of your lungs

731
00:40:58,318 --> 00:41:01,638
Speaker 4: and the fact that it recruits growth hormone when you

732
00:41:01,678 --> 00:41:05,878
Speaker 4: go anaerobic. Like the coach that made Joe puke in basketball.

733
00:41:06,558 --> 00:41:09,638
Speaker 4: But when you go to where you're puking, you're guaranteeing

734
00:41:10,198 --> 00:41:13,918
Speaker 4: that you're gaining whatever growth hormoon you have available in

735
00:41:14,038 --> 00:41:17,758
Speaker 4: your body to help your body heal and recover from

736
00:41:17,758 --> 00:41:20,438
Speaker 4: your last outing or sliding and getting a bruise on

737
00:41:20,478 --> 00:41:23,518
Speaker 4: your knee. So it does not have to be running.

738
00:41:24,238 --> 00:41:26,598
Speaker 4: There are a number of different ways to get aerobic

739
00:41:26,638 --> 00:41:31,438
Speaker 4: and anaerobic activity, but both of them are necessary for

740
00:41:31,638 --> 00:41:34,238
Speaker 4: the prepair, compete and recover cycle.

741
00:41:34,598 --> 00:41:36,798
Speaker 1: Yeah, in my mind's eye, I can still see Nolan

742
00:41:36,918 --> 00:41:38,558
Speaker 1: Ryan on that stationary bike.

743
00:41:39,398 --> 00:41:39,558
Speaker 2: Right.

744
00:41:39,918 --> 00:41:41,398
Speaker 1: How many hours did he put in on that?

745
00:41:41,758 --> 00:41:45,718
Speaker 4: Oh, you have a great and we took Nolan off

746
00:41:45,718 --> 00:41:47,838
Speaker 4: the field. We made him do all his If he

747
00:41:47,918 --> 00:41:49,518
Speaker 4: was going to run, he did it in a pool

748
00:41:50,198 --> 00:41:53,718
Speaker 4: and that was a concession to the aging process and

749
00:41:53,758 --> 00:41:57,558
Speaker 4: that his joints took a beating when he ran. So

750
00:41:57,838 --> 00:42:00,398
Speaker 4: we had the same aerobic anaerobic when he was in

751
00:42:00,438 --> 00:42:03,078
Speaker 4: a pool or on a stationary bike. And I think

752
00:42:03,158 --> 00:42:06,878
Speaker 4: he is loud. Fastball you through in Seattle at age

753
00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:08,998
Speaker 4: forty seven was not eight months from now.

754
00:42:09,958 --> 00:42:12,358
Speaker 3: That just really comes down to each take. Got to

755
00:42:12,398 --> 00:42:17,158
Speaker 3: take each case as it is differently different body types,

756
00:42:17,198 --> 00:42:22,558
Speaker 3: different different makeup, different heartbeats, different different dribe. We're all different, man.

757
00:42:23,038 --> 00:42:26,718
Speaker 3: And I mean again, that's why I am so in

758
00:42:26,798 --> 00:42:30,318
Speaker 3: tune to listen. I'm an analytical maybe, I mean I

759
00:42:30,358 --> 00:42:34,798
Speaker 3: started this stuff in the mid nineteen nineties up until

760
00:42:35,038 --> 00:42:35,478
Speaker 3: when they.

761
00:42:35,358 --> 00:42:36,238
Speaker 2: Began with the rays.

762
00:42:36,318 --> 00:42:40,478
Speaker 3: But god, I mean to not utilize your eyeballs and

763
00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:43,518
Speaker 3: old school techniques or whatever however you want to phrase

764
00:42:43,558 --> 00:42:45,838
Speaker 3: them and combine them and morph them together, and that

765
00:42:45,958 --> 00:42:47,918
Speaker 3: say you become the maximum coaks that you can be

766
00:42:48,838 --> 00:42:51,718
Speaker 3: to become an extremist either way, I'm just old school

767
00:42:51,758 --> 00:42:55,158
Speaker 3: or just new school. To become an extremist is not

768
00:42:55,318 --> 00:42:57,198
Speaker 3: the way to do this, and I think we promote that.

769
00:42:57,558 --> 00:43:00,278
Speaker 3: It's almost like you got to choose sides. And to me,

770
00:43:00,318 --> 00:43:03,198
Speaker 3: I'm always about the word balance. I think balance is

771
00:43:03,238 --> 00:43:08,398
Speaker 3: the most critical word or method in our existence. When

772
00:43:08,438 --> 00:43:11,638
Speaker 3: you're able to again be willing to accept change, be

773
00:43:11,718 --> 00:43:13,838
Speaker 3: willing to understand why this might be a better way,

774
00:43:14,398 --> 00:43:16,558
Speaker 3: and even just to consider it and then consider the

775
00:43:16,598 --> 00:43:19,998
Speaker 3: fact of no. I still after considering all that, really

776
00:43:20,078 --> 00:43:23,278
Speaker 3: giving it an opportunity. I still prefer this method, maybe

777
00:43:23,278 --> 00:43:25,118
Speaker 3: a little bit something more tried and true, But all

778
00:43:25,158 --> 00:43:27,718
Speaker 3: this stuff is important, and when you are able to

779
00:43:28,638 --> 00:43:30,878
Speaker 3: work follow that together, then you become as good of

780
00:43:30,918 --> 00:43:33,798
Speaker 3: a coach or manager as you can become. But to

781
00:43:33,998 --> 00:43:37,918
Speaker 3: be again an extremist, I think you're cutting yourself short

782
00:43:38,358 --> 00:43:41,118
Speaker 3: and your group, your players' organization is not getting full

783
00:43:41,118 --> 00:43:41,558
Speaker 3: of benefit.

784
00:43:41,998 --> 00:43:44,118
Speaker 1: Well, Tom, before we let you get out of here,

785
00:43:44,598 --> 00:43:47,318
Speaker 1: we do have some work for you. Don't worry. It's

786
00:43:47,318 --> 00:43:50,598
Speaker 1: not that hard. It's time for a reading from the

787
00:43:50,638 --> 00:43:54,798
Speaker 1: Book of Joe, and we like to have our guests

788
00:43:54,838 --> 00:43:57,558
Speaker 1: pick a number between one and three hundred and sixty eight.

789
00:43:57,998 --> 00:44:00,358
Speaker 1: That's the number of pages in the Book of Joe.

790
00:44:00,878 --> 00:44:03,518
Speaker 1: And we guarantee no matter what number you picked, Tom,

791
00:44:03,558 --> 00:44:06,758
Speaker 1: we're going to land on something that's really interesting. So

792
00:44:07,158 --> 00:44:09,638
Speaker 1: it's your choice. You pick any number between one and

793
00:44:09,718 --> 00:44:12,918
Speaker 1: three sixty eight, and we'll see see what's in the book.

794
00:44:13,318 --> 00:44:13,878
Speaker 1: What do you got?

795
00:44:14,198 --> 00:44:16,518
Speaker 4: What's three hundred and sixty eight divided by two.

796
00:44:17,198 --> 00:44:18,918
Speaker 1: I didn't know there was going to be math involved

797
00:44:18,918 --> 00:44:19,158
Speaker 1: in this.

798
00:44:19,358 --> 00:44:20,278
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one.

799
00:44:20,598 --> 00:44:25,078
Speaker 4: What you're right? Okay, go to page eighty four.

800
00:44:25,238 --> 00:44:27,238
Speaker 1: Nobody's gone triple digits. I love it.

801
00:44:27,438 --> 00:44:29,518
Speaker 2: He went high on this one. Nobody's gone high before.

802
00:44:29,558 --> 00:44:30,038
Speaker 2: I like it.

803
00:44:30,278 --> 00:44:32,558
Speaker 4: Well, we're halfway through the book. There'll be a little

804
00:44:32,558 --> 00:44:34,798
Speaker 4: bit of what was and a little bit of what's coming.

805
00:44:34,998 --> 00:44:35,358
Speaker 4: Got it.

806
00:44:35,438 --> 00:44:39,678
Speaker 1: I like that theory balance. Okay, well this really fits

807
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:42,518
Speaker 1: the topic well, because we're talking about pitch counts and

808
00:44:42,518 --> 00:44:45,678
Speaker 1: workloads for pictures and how analytics have put some governors

809
00:44:45,678 --> 00:44:49,918
Speaker 1: on people. The twenty fifteen season, this is Joe had

810
00:44:49,918 --> 00:44:53,518
Speaker 1: just joined the Cubs, began a precipitous decline as the

811
00:44:53,558 --> 00:44:56,918
Speaker 1: new gospel of third time around spread. Of course, we're

812
00:44:57,238 --> 00:44:59,598
Speaker 1: talking about taking starting pitchers out as soon as the

813
00:44:59,638 --> 00:45:03,398
Speaker 1: lineup turns over a third time. Based on analytics, the

814
00:45:03,918 --> 00:45:07,718
Speaker 1: twenty six percent rate of twenty fourteen fell to fifty

815
00:45:07,798 --> 00:45:10,758
Speaker 1: percent in twenty twenty one. So, in other words, the

816
00:45:10,838 --> 00:45:13,478
Speaker 1: pitcher came out fifty percent of the time the third

817
00:45:13,518 --> 00:45:17,118
Speaker 1: time around in twenty twenty one, as it was seventy

818
00:45:17,118 --> 00:45:20,278
Speaker 1: six percent in twenty fourteen. And here's Joe Madden. When

819
00:45:20,318 --> 00:45:22,318
Speaker 1: I first started with the Rais in two thousand and

820
00:45:22,398 --> 00:45:24,718
Speaker 1: six in the big leagues, Andrew Friedman, the GM was

821
00:45:24,758 --> 00:45:27,278
Speaker 1: really into it. Man, he was up my butt all

822
00:45:27,318 --> 00:45:29,478
Speaker 1: the time. I used to keep track of pitches per game,

823
00:45:29,518 --> 00:45:32,358
Speaker 1: the stuff that I always into right around one hundred

824
00:45:32,398 --> 00:45:34,438
Speaker 1: to one oh five is not going to hurt anybody.

825
00:45:34,598 --> 00:45:38,238
Speaker 1: Not only that, just who's the guy Scott Kashmir would

826
00:45:38,238 --> 00:45:40,198
Speaker 1: take one hundred pitches to get to the fifth inning,

827
00:45:40,598 --> 00:45:42,518
Speaker 1: So then you were forced to use your bullpen more

828
00:45:42,558 --> 00:45:44,918
Speaker 1: than you want to. But I think the new system

829
00:45:44,958 --> 00:45:47,558
Speaker 1: is based on front offices. It's based on data and

830
00:45:47,598 --> 00:45:50,718
Speaker 1: information the third time through the batting order, all this

831
00:45:50,838 --> 00:45:53,678
Speaker 1: stuff that they're actually nurturing in the minor leagues because

832
00:45:53,718 --> 00:45:56,758
Speaker 1: they don't let guys pitch through issues. By the time

833
00:45:56,798 --> 00:45:58,678
Speaker 1: they get to the big leagues, they're looking at their

834
00:45:58,678 --> 00:46:01,678
Speaker 1: pitch count, not just if we're winning or losing. They

835
00:46:01,718 --> 00:46:04,478
Speaker 1: want to know where where they're at going to pitch

836
00:46:04,518 --> 00:46:07,318
Speaker 1: another inning? Do I have another in me? I don't

837
00:46:07,358 --> 00:46:10,598
Speaker 1: even know how many pitches have I thrown? Really not

838
00:46:10,798 --> 00:46:12,958
Speaker 1: a good method, not at all.

839
00:46:13,558 --> 00:46:18,798
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean exactly Scott Shield, James shields. Excuse me

840
00:46:18,838 --> 00:46:22,318
Speaker 3: if I had both shields. He James wanted to pitch

841
00:46:22,358 --> 00:46:26,038
Speaker 3: more complete games. And James is a freaking bulldog, and

842
00:46:26,118 --> 00:46:28,598
Speaker 3: I was pulling him, kept pulling and pulling them because

843
00:46:28,638 --> 00:46:30,998
Speaker 3: his waterloo, weirdly was one hundred and eight pitches.

844
00:46:31,038 --> 00:46:32,078
Speaker 2: It just happened to be that.

845
00:46:32,638 --> 00:46:34,358
Speaker 3: He'd be cruising, cruise and cruise, and here it comes

846
00:46:34,358 --> 00:46:35,838
Speaker 3: one oh eight. And I didn't even say that to

847
00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:38,078
Speaker 3: might be watching, and all of a sudden stuff would

848
00:46:38,078 --> 00:46:38,758
Speaker 3: start happening.

849
00:46:39,118 --> 00:46:41,958
Speaker 2: So I eventually said, listen, you know, it's just.

850
00:46:41,878 --> 00:46:45,198
Speaker 3: Thought, I'm not lovey to do this pitch more complete games.

851
00:46:45,198 --> 00:46:48,198
Speaker 3: I'm not opposed to throwing more pitches, but you kind

852
00:46:48,198 --> 00:46:50,598
Speaker 3: of fall apart at this point. So just by pointing

853
00:46:50,598 --> 00:46:51,998
Speaker 3: that out to him, all of a sudden, he put

854
00:46:52,078 --> 00:46:54,598
Speaker 3: another gear, and this guy got on a run and

855
00:46:54,838 --> 00:46:56,918
Speaker 3: was starting to go like one ten plus a lot

856
00:46:56,958 --> 00:47:00,078
Speaker 3: and getting really deeply into the games and became a man.

857
00:46:59,998 --> 00:47:03,398
Speaker 2: Became a dude. I mean this, It was kind of

858
00:47:03,398 --> 00:47:03,918
Speaker 2: one of those things.

859
00:47:03,958 --> 00:47:06,118
Speaker 3: The mind one stretched has a difficult time going back

860
00:47:06,118 --> 00:47:09,118
Speaker 3: to his original form. Once that pitcher knows how to

861
00:47:09,158 --> 00:47:12,478
Speaker 3: do this and visu adversity to do this, he becomes

862
00:47:12,478 --> 00:47:15,278
Speaker 3: a different animal. I also used the example in there

863
00:47:15,318 --> 00:47:20,038
Speaker 3: with Arietta when Jake one time we were playing in

864
00:47:20,078 --> 00:47:22,838
Speaker 3: Minnesota and was like a close game, and all of

865
00:47:22,878 --> 00:47:24,998
Speaker 3: a sudden we broke it open in the eighth and

866
00:47:25,038 --> 00:47:27,718
Speaker 3: I think it was eight to zero Minnesota, but Jake

867
00:47:27,878 --> 00:47:32,198
Speaker 3: was cruising. He was like a right around the low

868
00:47:32,198 --> 00:47:34,398
Speaker 3: one hundred pitches in the seven or eighth inning. But

869
00:47:34,478 --> 00:47:36,838
Speaker 3: I've always thought in a major league when a pitcher

870
00:47:36,918 --> 00:47:40,318
Speaker 3: can pitch a complete game shutout, it does something to him.

871
00:47:40,678 --> 00:47:42,438
Speaker 3: So I did I let him go. I let him go,

872
00:47:42,518 --> 00:47:45,118
Speaker 3: and then he pitches a complete game shutout. We win

873
00:47:45,438 --> 00:47:49,078
Speaker 3: ate nothing, and it threw right around hundred and twenty pitches.

874
00:47:49,078 --> 00:47:50,758
Speaker 3: And I got all kinds of craft for that because

875
00:47:50,758 --> 00:47:53,518
Speaker 3: I should have taken him out because it was not significant,

876
00:47:53,718 --> 00:47:55,998
Speaker 3: But to me, it was very significant in regards to

877
00:47:56,038 --> 00:47:58,158
Speaker 3: the development of Jake Arietta. I did it in the

878
00:47:58,198 --> 00:48:01,438
Speaker 3: minor leagues with different guys. Again a mind one stretch.

879
00:48:01,518 --> 00:48:04,478
Speaker 3: When you permit a starting pitcher to do that pitch adversity,

880
00:48:04,558 --> 00:48:07,158
Speaker 3: learn how to pitch, and once to complete what he started,

881
00:48:07,478 --> 00:48:11,718
Speaker 3: the third time through becomes a little less intimidating. And

882
00:48:11,758 --> 00:48:13,678
Speaker 3: when you want to teach pictures that the third time

883
00:48:13,718 --> 00:48:17,438
Speaker 3: through is intimidating, it becomes that self fulfilled prophecy kind

884
00:48:17,478 --> 00:48:20,158
Speaker 3: of stuff. So I believe this stuff. I believe it's

885
00:48:20,318 --> 00:48:23,598
Speaker 3: I believe in it. I believe it's true. You could

886
00:48:23,678 --> 00:48:25,078
Speaker 3: throw all the data you want at me, but if

887
00:48:25,118 --> 00:48:28,518
Speaker 3: you train your guys to pitch to adversity, and they

888
00:48:28,518 --> 00:48:30,558
Speaker 3: should occur in a minor league level app and like

889
00:48:30,678 --> 00:48:32,758
Speaker 3: in the latter part, Double A Triple A pictures guys

890
00:48:32,758 --> 00:48:34,518
Speaker 3: that you're really into, let them do it.

891
00:48:34,718 --> 00:48:35,278
Speaker 2: Let them do it.

892
00:48:35,318 --> 00:48:37,318
Speaker 3: They're not going to get hurt because they threw ten

893
00:48:37,358 --> 00:48:42,038
Speaker 3: extra pitches tonight. And if you have to somehow mitigate

894
00:48:42,038 --> 00:48:43,878
Speaker 3: it the next time through, maybe bump them a day,

895
00:48:44,198 --> 00:48:46,518
Speaker 3: if there's times you may even have to skip a start, whatever.

896
00:48:46,638 --> 00:48:49,398
Speaker 3: But once you teach a picture how to do this

897
00:48:49,398 --> 00:48:52,598
Speaker 3: stuff by him teaching himself, you're going to get really

898
00:48:52,638 --> 00:48:54,438
Speaker 3: the kind of product you're looking for. And after all,

899
00:48:54,598 --> 00:48:58,358
Speaker 3: it's very expensive to buy starting pitching, very expensive. So

900
00:48:58,438 --> 00:49:00,678
Speaker 3: let's go ahead and develop it and not get in

901
00:49:00,718 --> 00:49:02,958
Speaker 3: the way of greatness of these young men. Let them

902
00:49:02,998 --> 00:49:06,318
Speaker 3: do things. Watch comes out of delivering something different. But

903
00:49:07,158 --> 00:49:09,558
Speaker 3: I could go on and on about different examples. You

904
00:49:09,598 --> 00:49:11,838
Speaker 3: permit them to do this, they become animals.

905
00:49:12,158 --> 00:49:14,758
Speaker 1: Well, Joe, let me just take that James Shields example,

906
00:49:14,838 --> 00:49:19,038
Speaker 1: Because James Shield's in twenty eleven through eleven complete games

907
00:49:19,038 --> 00:49:21,918
Speaker 1: where you led the league, he pitched two hundred plus

908
00:49:21,958 --> 00:49:26,558
Speaker 1: innings nine years in a row. And James Shields pitched

909
00:49:26,558 --> 00:49:29,158
Speaker 1: till he was thirty six years old. It made one

910
00:49:29,278 --> 00:49:32,998
Speaker 1: hundred and fourteen million dollars in his career, Tom, will

911
00:49:33,038 --> 00:49:36,958
Speaker 1: this game allow there to be another James Shields.

912
00:49:36,678 --> 00:49:39,358
Speaker 4: It's coming back. I don't think it'll ever be that way.

913
00:49:39,958 --> 00:49:44,798
Speaker 4: Joe's in. Joe's he hit it dead on the metal

914
00:49:44,918 --> 00:49:48,318
Speaker 4: side of a complete game has to be matched up

915
00:49:48,398 --> 00:49:52,918
Speaker 4: with a physical recovery. And what Joe said was letting

916
00:49:52,918 --> 00:49:56,118
Speaker 4: a guy know he can complete a ball game, making

917
00:49:56,158 --> 00:49:59,638
Speaker 4: the adjustment and recovery by giving him next day. It

918
00:49:59,678 --> 00:50:02,838
Speaker 4: has to be managed on both sides. If that made sense,

919
00:50:03,518 --> 00:50:05,758
Speaker 4: I don't I think it's ever going to be. Was

920
00:50:05,758 --> 00:50:08,518
Speaker 4: it Burt blind Levin that had twenty nine complete games

921
00:50:08,518 --> 00:50:10,958
Speaker 4: one year? I think that's why he went into the

922
00:50:10,998 --> 00:50:15,078
Speaker 4: Hall of Fame. Think about that, twenty nine complete in

923
00:50:15,198 --> 00:50:19,278
Speaker 4: one season. That's never going to happen again. But it will.

924
00:50:19,398 --> 00:50:23,478
Speaker 4: The penim will go back to where seven innings might

925
00:50:23,558 --> 00:50:29,478
Speaker 4: be the vanguard rather than five innings right now. But

926
00:50:29,558 --> 00:50:31,918
Speaker 4: it's never going to be complete games that are going

927
00:50:31,958 --> 00:50:35,518
Speaker 4: to be the major of the starting pitchers.

928
00:50:36,638 --> 00:50:38,758
Speaker 1: Well, Tom, for that to happen, I think we're going

929
00:50:38,798 --> 00:50:42,038
Speaker 1: to have to have free thinkers the way you have

930
00:50:42,238 --> 00:50:45,318
Speaker 1: been in your career. When I think back and I

931
00:50:45,358 --> 00:50:48,118
Speaker 1: saw those Texas Rangers pitchers warming up in the outfield

932
00:50:48,118 --> 00:50:51,878
Speaker 1: with footballs, and you know, the naysayers would say, who

933
00:50:51,918 --> 00:50:54,958
Speaker 1: do they think they are? They're reinventing the game, And

934
00:50:55,038 --> 00:50:57,038
Speaker 1: now you look around, it's very common to see such

935
00:50:57,078 --> 00:50:59,158
Speaker 1: a thing in the game. So it's going to take

936
00:50:59,278 --> 00:51:02,358
Speaker 1: people who are willing to do what they think is

937
00:51:02,558 --> 00:51:06,078
Speaker 1: right than going along with the crowd.

938
00:51:06,558 --> 00:51:08,998
Speaker 4: You know you're one hundred percent right. I didn't hear

939
00:51:09,038 --> 00:51:12,238
Speaker 4: my last name in Boston for two years. It was

940
00:51:12,278 --> 00:51:16,358
Speaker 4: now fishing for the socks, number twenty nine, tom Boo.

941
00:51:17,038 --> 00:51:20,238
Speaker 4: Because to the fans, I gave up a home runner,

942
00:51:20,318 --> 00:51:24,238
Speaker 4: Chris Shambliss. That costs us a pennant, and the fans

943
00:51:24,278 --> 00:51:27,398
Speaker 4: never forget. But if you stick by your guns, you

944
00:51:27,398 --> 00:51:29,958
Speaker 4: show every day. I'll tell you about I'll hang out

945
00:51:29,958 --> 00:51:33,958
Speaker 4: with you guys anytime. These kind of conversations don't happen

946
00:51:34,118 --> 00:51:36,958
Speaker 4: enough in baseball, where you sit down at a table

947
00:51:37,038 --> 00:51:39,638
Speaker 4: and you look for a way to collaborate. If you

948
00:51:39,678 --> 00:51:42,758
Speaker 4: could push one thing from our gets together today. There

949
00:51:42,798 --> 00:51:46,198
Speaker 4: needs to be more collaboration in baseball and less.

950
00:51:45,918 --> 00:51:49,758
Speaker 1: Confrontation well said, and on that, we want to thank

951
00:51:49,798 --> 00:51:53,478
Speaker 1: you Tom. This has really been not just educational, but

952
00:51:53,798 --> 00:51:56,798
Speaker 1: enjoyable as well. Really enjoyed it. Thank you, Thanks Tom.

953
00:51:56,838 --> 00:51:58,838
Speaker 3: I mean I did the Mustard gig the other night.

954
00:51:58,998 --> 00:52:01,958
Speaker 3: Was very cool to be able to participate with your

955
00:52:01,958 --> 00:52:05,198
Speaker 3: group there too, spoken enough. I mean, I love what

956
00:52:05,238 --> 00:52:08,758
Speaker 3: you're just everything you've said today, I could definitely learn

957
00:52:08,798 --> 00:52:13,798
Speaker 3: from you. I appreciate your method too, your outstanding teacher,

958
00:52:14,398 --> 00:52:17,038
Speaker 3: your betsend manner is perfect. So hopefully I get a

959
00:52:17,078 --> 00:52:18,118
Speaker 3: chance to visit more often.

960
00:52:18,438 --> 00:52:19,958
Speaker 4: Thanks, guys, have a blessed day.

961
00:52:20,158 --> 00:52:20,918
Speaker 2: You got it, buddy.

962
00:52:21,078 --> 00:52:24,398
Speaker 1: Hopefully our listeners got a chance to really appreciate the

963
00:52:24,478 --> 00:52:27,798
Speaker 1: uniqueness of Tom House. We're talking about someone who has

964
00:52:27,838 --> 00:52:30,398
Speaker 1: been a coach with the Astros, the Padres, the Rangers,

965
00:52:30,758 --> 00:52:33,718
Speaker 1: University of Southern California, of course, major League career with

966
00:52:33,798 --> 00:52:36,638
Speaker 1: the Braves, Red Sox and Mariners. He's someone with a

967
00:52:36,638 --> 00:52:40,918
Speaker 1: PhD in Sports psychology, Master of Science, Master of Business Administration,

968
00:52:41,118 --> 00:52:45,358
Speaker 1: Bachelor of Science. I mean, he's Joe. He's just so

969
00:52:46,678 --> 00:52:52,198
Speaker 1: well prepared to speak about, you know, all aspects of pitching,

970
00:52:52,318 --> 00:52:56,878
Speaker 1: especially a very holistic approach, and hopefully our listener's got

971
00:52:56,918 --> 00:52:58,038
Speaker 1: a chance to appreciate that.

972
00:52:58,398 --> 00:53:01,438
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just found out that's my mistake by not

973
00:53:01,558 --> 00:53:03,838
Speaker 3: talking to this guy a lot more. I've always heard

974
00:53:04,118 --> 00:53:07,878
Speaker 3: different sources. Lindsay Bearra extolls his virtues all the time.

975
00:53:07,918 --> 00:53:12,918
Speaker 3: I recently did his Mustard Broadcasters podcast recently. But Wow,

976
00:53:13,078 --> 00:53:14,838
Speaker 3: my takeaway was, I need to talk to him more often.

977
00:53:14,878 --> 00:53:16,438
Speaker 2: I need to listen to it more often. I need

978
00:53:16,438 --> 00:53:17,678
Speaker 2: to follow him.

979
00:53:17,998 --> 00:53:21,558
Speaker 3: His his stuff is outstanding, and the way he explains

980
00:53:21,598 --> 00:53:27,958
Speaker 3: it is beautiful, simple, particulate, and something you could learn from.

981
00:53:28,518 --> 00:53:30,438
Speaker 3: I just I mean, I might have enjoyed that as

982
00:53:30,518 --> 00:53:32,438
Speaker 3: much as any conversation that we've had.

983
00:53:32,758 --> 00:53:37,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love his Twitter bio. It's very simple.

984
00:53:37,438 --> 00:53:39,598
Speaker 1: It says, I coach kids of all ages to be

985
00:53:39,718 --> 00:53:42,678
Speaker 1: their own goat greatest of all time. Love it caught

986
00:53:42,718 --> 00:53:45,118
Speaker 1: Hank Aaron seven hundred and fifteenth.

987
00:53:45,598 --> 00:53:48,718
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, he dead. He's on that video every time.

988
00:53:48,758 --> 00:53:51,078
Speaker 4: You're right, that's awesome. That's beautiful. Man.

989
00:53:51,198 --> 00:53:53,918
Speaker 1: Oh that was enjoyable. Joe, you have something to decap

990
00:53:53,998 --> 00:53:54,798
Speaker 1: this episode with.

991
00:53:55,118 --> 00:53:59,238
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually was anticipating all this and some to

992
00:53:59,358 --> 00:54:03,478
Speaker 3: quote my former player president super Scout Todd Green, I

993
00:54:03,518 --> 00:54:05,958
Speaker 3: think we've talked about this before Greeney ran this by me.

994
00:54:06,558 --> 00:54:08,358
Speaker 3: We're having a beer in Pittsburgh a couple of years

995
00:54:08,398 --> 00:54:12,158
Speaker 3: ago with him and David Hollins, and Greeney dropped this

996
00:54:12,198 --> 00:54:14,638
Speaker 3: saw me. We're talking about old school. He says, I'm

997
00:54:14,678 --> 00:54:19,238
Speaker 3: not old school, I'm not new school. I'm in school.

998
00:54:19,478 --> 00:54:21,078
Speaker 3: And that's exactly where we need to be.

999
00:54:22,398 --> 00:54:22,598
Speaker 2: You know.

1000
00:54:22,718 --> 00:54:25,558
Speaker 3: Of course, we all hold on to the vestiges of

1001
00:54:25,598 --> 00:54:28,078
Speaker 3: the past, and we always want.

1002
00:54:27,918 --> 00:54:30,158
Speaker 2: To be able to be contemporary.

1003
00:54:30,798 --> 00:54:35,118
Speaker 3: And then sometimes these two groups butt heads. But you

1004
00:54:35,358 --> 00:54:38,158
Speaker 3: really should be in school constantly. Greeney pointed that out

1005
00:54:38,198 --> 00:54:38,558
Speaker 3: to me, and.

1006
00:54:38,518 --> 00:54:39,718
Speaker 2: I want to be in school.

1007
00:54:40,038 --> 00:54:42,958
Speaker 1: Great wisdom from Greenie. Joe, thanks for passing that along.

1008
00:54:43,038 --> 00:54:44,278
Speaker 1: Really enjoyed this episode.

1009
00:54:44,438 --> 00:54:46,678
Speaker 2: Outstanding job, brother, Thank you very much. It was great.

1010
00:54:52,398 --> 00:54:55,598
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1011
00:54:55,838 --> 00:54:59,678
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1012
00:54:59,758 --> 00:55:02,718
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.