WEBVTT - How long will Moore's Law continue boosting computing power? (featuring Dr. Adam Becker)

0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:09.800
<v Speaker 1>I feel like an old man whenever I buy a

0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.960
<v Speaker 1>new computer. I mean, why does my laptop need sixty

0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:15.680
<v Speaker 1>four gigabytes of memory? When I learned to program on

0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.960
<v Speaker 1>a PC that had twenty kilobytes? No joke. Kids these

0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:22.799
<v Speaker 1>days don't understand how hard we had it back in

0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.159
<v Speaker 1>the day. Right, But it's also a nice feeling. It

0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.560
<v Speaker 1>tells me that we're making progress and that's good. It's

0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.479
<v Speaker 1>creating new worlds and new ways of life. It's literally

0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.040
<v Speaker 1>saving lives by accelerating science. That's all great stuff, right,

0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.319
<v Speaker 1>But how long can it go on? What is the

0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.319
<v Speaker 1>engine of this exponential growth in computing power? And can

0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.680
<v Speaker 1>we count on it to take us to the stars,

0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:51.159
<v Speaker 1>to cure cancer and to develop self driving toothbrushes. Today

0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.120
<v Speaker 1>we'll dive into the physics underlying this trend and ask

0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.360
<v Speaker 1>whether there are fundamental limits that could block us from

0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:00.680
<v Speaker 1>achieving our dreams. And we'll talk about whether there's danger

0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:05.200
<v Speaker 1>and assuming technology will solve all of our problems. Welcome

0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.000
<v Speaker 1>to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:25.319
<v Speaker 2>Hello. I am Kelly Wiener Smith. I study parasites and space,

0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.720
<v Speaker 2>and I realized when we were starting to do this

0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.200
<v Speaker 2>episode that I wasn't one hundred percent clear on what

0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:31.480
<v Speaker 2>mores Law meant exactly.

0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and I've been

0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.360
<v Speaker 1>programming computers for more than forty years. They get faster

0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:40.560
<v Speaker 1>and I get slower.

0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh you're not slowing down yet, Daniel, you stab.

0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.520
<v Speaker 1>So my question for you today, Kelly, is what was

0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:51.920
<v Speaker 1>your first computer? Let's age Kelly.

0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So later when we talked to Adam Becker in

0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.160
<v Speaker 2>our interview, he mentions that there was a while there

0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.600
<v Speaker 2>where folks wouldn't get a computer because you'd wait as

0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.880
<v Speaker 2>long as you could, because the computers kept getting so

0:02:02.000 --> 0:02:05.320
<v Speaker 2>much better so quickly that if you could wait, your

0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:07.600
<v Speaker 2>computer would be much better. Yeah, and so my family

0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:11.200
<v Speaker 2>waited way too long. We didn't get one until I

0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.040
<v Speaker 2>was in like high school, and I know, and I

0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.600
<v Speaker 2>don't even remember what it was. But in the meantime

0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.520
<v Speaker 2>I had to write my essays on like it was

0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.919
<v Speaker 2>like a brother typewriter, but it also had a little

0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.960
<v Speaker 2>electronic screen, and so I could very slowly and laboriously

0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:29.120
<v Speaker 2>click through my essays and then I would print it

0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:30.880
<v Speaker 2>and something would be wrong. It would take me forever

0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.680
<v Speaker 2>to find where the error was. It was very annoying.

0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.519
<v Speaker 2>But what about you, did you have like the first

0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:37.600
<v Speaker 2>Apple computer? Ever?

0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:38.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh?

0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.639
<v Speaker 1>Apple was way too advanced. I go way before that.

0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:45.359
<v Speaker 1>What My first computer was a Commodore VIC twenty, which

0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.480
<v Speaker 1>I think had twenty kilobytes of RAM, and we stored

0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.280
<v Speaker 1>stuff on an audio tape, you know, like you write

0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:54.040
<v Speaker 1>a little program and then you'd stored on these cassette

0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.000
<v Speaker 1>tapes that you could later listen to and like, ooh

0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.960
<v Speaker 1>what does that sound? So yeah, we were very very early.

0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.200
<v Speaker 1>In fact, I remember hanging out with my dad in

0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.880
<v Speaker 1>grad school while he was doing his research and he

0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.400
<v Speaker 1>was literally feeding punch cards into those punch cards machines.

0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.000
<v Speaker 1>So I feel like I've personally experienced a huge fraction

0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.200
<v Speaker 1>of the transformation of computers into the basically supercomputers we

0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.320
<v Speaker 1>have today. I mean, my smartphone is so much more

0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.040
<v Speaker 1>powerful than anything my dad ever used in his research.

0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.560
<v Speaker 2>That is absolutely amazing. I didn't even know that we

0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.760
<v Speaker 2>were storing data on like cassette tapes. Oh yeah, that's

0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:29.520
<v Speaker 2>amazing to me.

0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, before magnetic floppies for sure.

0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.280
<v Speaker 2>So when you like are using your are you a

0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:34.960
<v Speaker 2>MacBook guy?

0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:35.720
<v Speaker 1>I am? Yeah.

0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:37.560
<v Speaker 2>It's like when you're using your Mac Do you every

0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:39.680
<v Speaker 2>day think I am so lucky I'm not doing this

0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.080
<v Speaker 2>on punch cards or you just do you take it

0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:42.839
<v Speaker 2>for granted? Now?

0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.400
<v Speaker 1>I think it's awesome. It's incredible. I mean every time

0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.040
<v Speaker 1>I get a new MacBook, I'm like, while, this drive

0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.600
<v Speaker 1>is ten times bigger than anything I've ever seen, and

0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.320
<v Speaker 1>the memory is just shocking. And it's also then incredible

0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.200
<v Speaker 1>to me how rapidly our computational ambitions grow. You know,

0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.920
<v Speaker 1>my group does a lot of computation, and we're basically

0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.440
<v Speaker 1>limited by computation, and so every time we get more

0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:08.880
<v Speaker 1>powerful computers, we scale up our ambitions and solve bigger,

0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.360
<v Speaker 1>harder problems, and so we're always at the edge of

0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.480
<v Speaker 1>what the computers can do, right, Like, we have an

0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:18.080
<v Speaker 1>infinite number of questions we could ask with harder computers.

0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.760
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I'm in awe of the MacBook, not just

0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.080
<v Speaker 1>because it's so much more powerful than anything I've used,

0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.599
<v Speaker 1>but it's so reliable. I mean, I spend hours and

0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:28.440
<v Speaker 1>hours a day in front of this thing. It almost

0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.960
<v Speaker 1>never gives me problems. So yeah, it's incredible. What engineers

0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:34.720
<v Speaker 1>have provided it is incredible.

0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.000
<v Speaker 2>And today we're going to talk about one way in

0:04:37.040 --> 0:04:40.279
<v Speaker 2>which that incredible ability has been expanded, which has to

0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.000
<v Speaker 2>do with Moore's Law, which I thought was about how

0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.440
<v Speaker 2>much data you can store on your computer, and I

0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:47.520
<v Speaker 2>think it's much more than that.

0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.120
<v Speaker 1>You're right, it's much more than that. It's also about

0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.800
<v Speaker 1>how things are growing over time and how long that

0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.200
<v Speaker 1>will continue. And there's this lore about Moore's Law which

0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.600
<v Speaker 1>is permeated Silicon Valley and broader culture. So in a minute,

0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.359
<v Speaker 1>we're gonna also talk to Adam Becker about how this

0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:07.760
<v Speaker 1>has impacted philosophy and politics and policy and how it

0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.520
<v Speaker 1>might affect our future. But first we wanted to know

0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:13.760
<v Speaker 1>how long people thought Moore's Law might continue to make

0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.760
<v Speaker 1>all of our computers faster. So I went out there

0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.480
<v Speaker 1>and I talked to our group of volunteers. Here's what

0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.279
<v Speaker 1>they had to say about the future of Moore's law.

0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.040
<v Speaker 1>So I'll give it six years and then I'm gonna

0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:32.119
<v Speaker 1>sell my nvidious stock. But quand computing will change the game.

0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.960
<v Speaker 1>We are restricted by things like housmow.

0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:40.240
<v Speaker 4>We can make stuff, so I think it's not true anymore.

0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.120
<v Speaker 4>My first thought was to sign no, but I know

0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.440
<v Speaker 4>very little bit quantuine computing. I would say until the

0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.000
<v Speaker 4>computer speed, which just be the light maybe ten years,

0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:53.880
<v Speaker 4>another good decade or so.

0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.440
<v Speaker 3>My understanding is that it's already done.

0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:01.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't think we are doubling in raw processing speed.

0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:05.400
<v Speaker 4>In my understanding, Moore's law kind of slowed down for

0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.720
<v Speaker 4>laptop desktop chips a number of years back, but has

0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.960
<v Speaker 4>continued with mobile just because they were a little behind.

0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.440
<v Speaker 4>But then you also have graphics and neural processing units

0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.120
<v Speaker 4>that power our AI platforms of today. So can we

0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.440
<v Speaker 4>go into the future. I think we can go for

0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.039
<v Speaker 4>a number more years, given the innovations in transistor stacking.

0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I thought Moore's law had to do with cost decreasing

0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.200
<v Speaker 2>as speed increased. We do seem to be close to

0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.840
<v Speaker 2>a tipping point with electrons being too large for the

0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:39.680
<v Speaker 2>tiny circuitry. However, it seems that optical circuitry might be

0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:40.840
<v Speaker 2>a good replacement for that.

0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:47.360
<v Speaker 1>They're currently reaching the lower limits of workability before they

0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.719
<v Speaker 1>start reaching quantum effects. With silicon.

0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.760
<v Speaker 3>We are getting closer to the particle level and that

0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:56.320
<v Speaker 3>stops us.

0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.400
<v Speaker 1>Honestly, I thought it had already stopped. So do you

0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.919
<v Speaker 1>think these are optimistic or pessimistic?

0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.919
<v Speaker 2>I mean I think they're realistic, which seems to be

0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the option that always gets left out. So I think

0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:09.880
<v Speaker 2>there were a lot of people who said, you know,

0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:11.760
<v Speaker 2>I thought we've already reached the limits. So we're getting

0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.880
<v Speaker 2>close to reaching the limits. And I'll admit that I

0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.320
<v Speaker 2>did not realize we were getting close to reaching the limits.

0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.239
<v Speaker 2>But it seems like a lot of our listeners are

0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:19.720
<v Speaker 2>on top of this trend.

0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so we're not giving financial advice. So I

0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.440
<v Speaker 1>won't tell you whether or not to buy or sell

0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:29.000
<v Speaker 1>in Vidia stock. But you know, sometimes I wonder about

0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.559
<v Speaker 1>these tech companies because their stocks also seem to follow

0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:34.840
<v Speaker 1>Moore's law, Like, how can Google just keep getting more valuable?

0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.240
<v Speaker 1>I keep missing out on buying Google.

0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:39.960
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you that if you can make a

0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:41.880
<v Speaker 2>time machine, one of the first things you should do

0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:43.880
<v Speaker 2>is go buy in VideA and Google stuff.

0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.720
<v Speaker 1>All right, So let's dig into it. What in the

0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:51.920
<v Speaker 1>end is Moore's law? So Moore's law was something postulated

0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:53.000
<v Speaker 1>by Gordon Moore.

0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:54.600
<v Speaker 2>He has a first name.

0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.520
<v Speaker 1>And he was one of the found of Intel, so

0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:05.400
<v Speaker 1>a big dude in like, you know, semiconductors and electronics.

0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:10.720
<v Speaker 1>And he suggested initially that the number of transistors you

0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.360
<v Speaker 1>could squeeze onto a chip would double every year. And

0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.280
<v Speaker 1>it's a little bit more complicated than that. He also

0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.720
<v Speaker 1>was talking about the power usage and the cost, but

0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.720
<v Speaker 1>roughly speaking, he was talking about the density of transistors

0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.200
<v Speaker 1>on chips getting higher every single year, which means the

0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.040
<v Speaker 1>speed of these computers is growing very quickly.

0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.160
<v Speaker 2>So transistors are about speed and not storage, or are

0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:33.920
<v Speaker 2>they about both?

0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.880
<v Speaker 1>They're about both. The transistor fundamentally is a tiny programmable switch.

0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.640
<v Speaker 1>And the reason that computers got small and got fast

0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.400
<v Speaker 1>is because we were able to make transistors small and

0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.000
<v Speaker 1>make them fast, which allows us to have lots and

0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.720
<v Speaker 1>lots and lots of switches in a small area, which

0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.680
<v Speaker 1>is what allows the computer to be complex and to

0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.840
<v Speaker 1>be fast. And so essentially it's saying we can make

0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.680
<v Speaker 1>computers denser every year, and that makes computers faster and

0:08:58.720 --> 0:08:59.360
<v Speaker 1>more powerful.

0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.079
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so this has to do with why we went

0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.160
<v Speaker 2>from computers that took up entire rooms to something you

0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.720
<v Speaker 2>can now stick in your bag and take with you.

0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, And we'll dig into that in a minute.

0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.600
<v Speaker 1>But the history here is that in nineteen sixty five

0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.080
<v Speaker 1>More predicted this and then ten years later he revised it.

0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.280
<v Speaker 1>He was like, well every year, maybe that's too optimistic.

0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Let's go for every two years. And so that was

0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.440
<v Speaker 1>the prediction in seventy five, and you'll see that it

0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:27.640
<v Speaker 1>mostly held up until fairly recently. It's sort of an

0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:31.040
<v Speaker 1>extraordinary prediction in that sense, though. You know, anytime there's

0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.360
<v Speaker 1>a prediction that holds up, you got to wonder, like, well,

0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.160
<v Speaker 1>what were the other predictions this person made, Like you

0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:40.160
<v Speaker 1>just spew predictions constantly, Eventually you're goind of get one Ris.

0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, well, especially he gave himself another decade to

0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.600
<v Speaker 2>like fit the trend line. That was pretty generous to himself.

0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.319
<v Speaker 1>But okay, exactly, So let's dick into what a transistor

0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.600
<v Speaker 1>is and why it allows computers to be faster, because

0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.760
<v Speaker 1>that's crucial to understand why More's law has worked, how

0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:56.679
<v Speaker 1>we've made it work, and whether it's going to work

0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.200
<v Speaker 1>in the future. Basically, a transistor is a programmable switch

0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.880
<v Speaker 1>like computers operate on digital logic. I have a number

0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.280
<v Speaker 1>in the computer, the number four. They store it in binary.

0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.520
<v Speaker 1>But to store things in binary you need a physical system.

0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.319
<v Speaker 1>But that can store a zero or a one right

0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.160
<v Speaker 1>the way you can like write a digit on a

0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.080
<v Speaker 1>piece of paper. That's like I'm representing the number four

0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.120
<v Speaker 1>by scratching this graphite onto this sheet of paper. I

0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:25.080
<v Speaker 1>want to store things on my computer and zeros and

0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.960
<v Speaker 1>ones because binary is the code for computers, and physically

0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.440
<v Speaker 1>that means a switch, you know, as you can imagine

0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.640
<v Speaker 1>either just like literally like a light switch, but here

0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:36.280
<v Speaker 1>we're doing an electronic switch.

0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And so just to if we switched from using

0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:45.439
<v Speaker 2>transistors to things like DNA to store data or quantum computing,

0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.720
<v Speaker 2>could you still apply More's law, like if we switched

0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.240
<v Speaker 2>to some other method or is More's law specifically about

0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the transistors that we're talking about now, Yeah.

0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Great question. You're talking about fundamental changes in how we

0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:02.120
<v Speaker 1>do computing. So currently computing operates on bits, zeros and ones,

0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.079
<v Speaker 1>and we're saying those are represented by transistors, which is

0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:07.760
<v Speaker 1>like a physical implementation of that bit. You switch to

0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:11.120
<v Speaker 1>quantum computing, the fundamental element of that is a cubit,

0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.160
<v Speaker 1>which isn't necessarily a zero one. It has the probability

0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.400
<v Speaker 1>to be in several different states, and so it requires

0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.800
<v Speaker 1>a different physical system to model that. We don't use

0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:23.400
<v Speaker 1>transistors or not even like quantum transistors. In fact, transistors

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:27.480
<v Speaker 1>are already relying deeply on quantum mechanics, so quantum transistor

0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.560
<v Speaker 1>is redundant. But yeah, cubit, there's no guarantee that you

0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:33.280
<v Speaker 1>can like build cubits and then build them more densely

0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.280
<v Speaker 1>and more rapidly. There's certainly no More's law for quantum

0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:40.520
<v Speaker 1>computing that's a guarantee. And biological computing like DNA is

0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.240
<v Speaker 1>super awesome as an idea, but there you have like

0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:47.200
<v Speaker 1>four possibilities, right, DNA is basically base four, and so

0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.880
<v Speaker 1>it's a question of like how do you encode numbers

0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.040
<v Speaker 1>into DNA? Do you use all four bases? Do you

0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:55.319
<v Speaker 1>group them into two to make binary? The technology is

0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.760
<v Speaker 1>fundamentally different, So again you wouldn't expect necessarily further to

0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:00.719
<v Speaker 1>be more solved, but you might get some other law

0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.559
<v Speaker 1>which could be better. So but yeah, Mores law reflects

0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 1>the details of the technology we're using to represent the

0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.160
<v Speaker 1>fundamental element of computing, which is a zero or one,

0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:13.720
<v Speaker 1>and then crucially the logic that operates on those zeros

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:14.160
<v Speaker 1>and ones.

0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:15.400
<v Speaker 2>Let's get into that logic.

0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:17.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because what you want to do is represent like

0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:19.720
<v Speaker 1>numbers in your computer. I want to put the number

0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.120
<v Speaker 1>four in but also I want to calculate stuff. I

0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:23.959
<v Speaker 1>don't just want to write four into my computer. I

0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 1>want to be able to add four to two. I

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:28.520
<v Speaker 1>want to be able to compare four and seven. Right,

0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:30.760
<v Speaker 1>That's what allows you to program a computer for it

0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.120
<v Speaker 1>to do useful computation. And if you know something about computing,

0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.560
<v Speaker 1>you know like the basics of computation is a Turing

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.959
<v Speaker 1>machine which can like read in numbers and write numbers

0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:44.240
<v Speaker 1>onto this infinite tape. And so in order to do logic,

0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.480
<v Speaker 1>you need to be able to have things that respond

0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.559
<v Speaker 1>to different inputs. So in logic you have things like gates.

0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>Like a not gate is something which if you give

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 1>it to zero, it responds a one. If you give

0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:56.600
<v Speaker 1>it a one, it responds to zero. It's like a

0:12:56.679 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 1>logical map from inputs to outputs, or an a gate. Right,

0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.240
<v Speaker 1>an and gate gives you a one if both inputs

0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.640
<v Speaker 1>are one and a zero otherwise. Or the converse of

0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 1>that is a nand gate NA n D, which is

0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 1>the combination of an N gate and a knot gate.

0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:15.600
<v Speaker 1>And the really cool thing is that if you can

0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.760
<v Speaker 1>build a nand gate, you can build any logical map

0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.200
<v Speaker 1>nandgates are like the basis function of logic. So if

0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.560
<v Speaker 1>you have nands, people have shown that you can build

0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.760
<v Speaker 1>any map from inputs to outputs and essentially any sort

0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:31.800
<v Speaker 1>of computer logic. So you can build knot gates and

0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.440
<v Speaker 1>and gates out of transistors. Transistors are like this digital switch,

0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:37.400
<v Speaker 1>and we'll go into the detail of the physics of

0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.120
<v Speaker 1>how they work, but essentially they're a programmable switch. You

0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 1>can turn them on or off in response to other stuff.

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.320
<v Speaker 1>So from that you can build logic, and from that

0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.400
<v Speaker 1>you can build nandgates, and from that you can build

0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.440
<v Speaker 1>literally anything like adders and comparitors and anything you need

0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.840
<v Speaker 1>in computers. So this is like the basically the smallest

0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.199
<v Speaker 1>little lego brick of computing is a switch, a programmable

0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 1>switch that goes from zero to one. And that's what

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.720
<v Speaker 1>a transistor is an implementation of. And it didn't have

0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>to be a transistor. It could have been something else.

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 1>It could have been DNA, it could have been whatever.

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.760
<v Speaker 1>But this is like the best, fastest, smallest thing that

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.400
<v Speaker 1>we have invented, and this is what revolutionized our society.

0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:16.080
<v Speaker 2>What does the transistor look like?

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what does the transistor look like? It looks like

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 1>nothing because it's super duper tiny, right, Like the ones

0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.560
<v Speaker 1>that we're building these days are order nanometers right, so

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:28.880
<v Speaker 1>like you put one on your finger, you can't see it.

0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 1>The number of transistors on a typical chip is billions,

0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.000
<v Speaker 1>so you can't see an individual one. There used to

0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:36.720
<v Speaker 1>be able to, like when they were first building them

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.360
<v Speaker 1>in the fifties, you would like make one, you know,

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:41.880
<v Speaker 1>on a bench. You could think of it as sort

0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.720
<v Speaker 1>of like three wires coming together. You have a source,

0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.400
<v Speaker 1>a drain, and then a gait and the gate basically

0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 1>decides do I connect the source and the drain Do

0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 1>I open or close this switch? And so it's sort

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:55.840
<v Speaker 1>of like a wire with a lever in it that

0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:58.320
<v Speaker 1>you know you can open or close, and then another

0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 1>wire that determines what whether or not that's open or closed.

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.960
<v Speaker 1>So that's not a physical description of what they look like.

0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.760
<v Speaker 1>We can get into like the semiconductors in a minute,

0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:10.200
<v Speaker 1>but that's sort of the logical construction. And when I

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.720
<v Speaker 1>think about more's low, I think, well, what is exactly

0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 1>is the connection between more transistors and speed? Like it's

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.080
<v Speaker 1>cool to have things small because then you can put

0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.840
<v Speaker 1>a computer in your watch or whatever. But why do

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 1>smaller computers operate faster? Because that's really the crucial key.

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 1>When you sit down at your laptop, you're not like, wow,

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:33.600
<v Speaker 1>the transistors are super dense. You're like, wow, you know

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.360
<v Speaker 1>word opened in a bill a second instead of you know,

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.880
<v Speaker 1>spinning my beach ball forever. Yeah, So it's the speed

0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.880
<v Speaker 1>that's really crucial, and that's really transformed society. Right, it's

0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 1>computational power and miniaturization means faster operation for a few reasons.

0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Number one, things just don't have to go as far. Right,

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.520
<v Speaker 1>Electronics is limited by the speed of light. It's not instantaneous.

0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:58.920
<v Speaker 1>You close a switch, the electrons don't move instantly. Right,

0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.360
<v Speaker 1>the current doesn't change instantly, and so we are still

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.080
<v Speaker 1>limited by the speed of light. And so if the

0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:08.560
<v Speaker 1>distances between the transistors are smaller and the transistors themselves

0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 1>are smaller, things just happen faster because there's a speed

0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.120
<v Speaker 1>limit to information in the universe.

0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.560
<v Speaker 2>That's awesome. I guess I hadn't imagined that as a

0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.520
<v Speaker 2>limiting factor. Okay, super cool, what's next.

0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's one. The other is you can have wider

0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.880
<v Speaker 1>data paths, like instead of just using thirty two bits

0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:29.840
<v Speaker 1>to store your numbers. You can use sixty four bits, right.

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Remember bits are this essential element of binary numbers, and

0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 1>so if you have like a two bit number, you

0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.040
<v Speaker 1>can only store between zero and four. If you have

0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.600
<v Speaker 1>an eight bit number, you can store many more numbers.

0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:42.880
<v Speaker 1>You have thirty two these days computing a sixty four

0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twenty eight bit If you hear about

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.600
<v Speaker 1>these numbers as the sort of the core the computing

0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.040
<v Speaker 1>of your CPU or your operating system, that's what it describes,

0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.920
<v Speaker 1>like what size numbers are we operating on? And this

0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.920
<v Speaker 1>is important because basically it's how much your computer can

0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.040
<v Speaker 1>do in parallel. Like if you can add two hundred

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 1>and twenty eight bit numbers, it's really one hundred and

0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.560
<v Speaker 1>twenty eight bit wise operations done in parallel instead of

0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.360
<v Speaker 1>if you're doing sixty four bit numbers, then you're only

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:14.040
<v Speaker 1>doing sixty four operations in parallel, and so you can

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.920
<v Speaker 1>do more operations in parallel, You can pass more data

0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 1>at the same time, and so data flows more quickly.

0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.439
<v Speaker 1>Another thing that really limits the speed of computers is

0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 1>how long does it take to get the data into

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.440
<v Speaker 1>the actual CPU. Right, Like you have these numbers in memory,

0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.200
<v Speaker 1>you want to do some calculation on you got to

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>slurp them from memory and put them into the registers

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.119
<v Speaker 1>in your CPU. They're actually doing the comparisons or the

0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.080
<v Speaker 1>adding or the subtracting or whatever. And so the wider

0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.080
<v Speaker 1>the data path, the faster the data gets loaded, and

0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 1>the faster the computation happens.

0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:53.040
<v Speaker 2>And CPU probably means senorebditis pyro wetting underwater. What does

0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:53.760
<v Speaker 2>CPU mean?

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.239
<v Speaker 1>CPU means central processing unit. It's a thing on your

0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.920
<v Speaker 1>computer that does the actual crunching, does the adding or

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.440
<v Speaker 1>subtracting or comparing, or loading or unloading or writing to

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:08.200
<v Speaker 1>memorates the closest thing we have to a digital brain. Okay,

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 1>but there's another sort of mechanical element to like why

0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.280
<v Speaker 1>speed means faster computers. And you know, back in the

0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.600
<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifties, people were doing electronics, and they're doing it

0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:19.600
<v Speaker 1>sort of the way you might do it in your garage.

0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.520
<v Speaker 1>You got resistors, you got capacitors, you solder them together,

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.480
<v Speaker 1>you make these big sort of physical circuits. But in

0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.399
<v Speaker 1>the late nineteen fifties people invented what's called the integrated circuit.

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.240
<v Speaker 1>Integrated circuit is just like you know, it's a big

0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.240
<v Speaker 1>green board and it's got the whole circuit printed onto it.

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 1>You don't like solder the components together, and this really

0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.640
<v Speaker 1>allows for like the embedding of these transistors and other

0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 1>components inside these protective layers, which enhance their reliability. And

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.080
<v Speaker 1>so that means you can make them smaller, you can

0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.439
<v Speaker 1>make more complex circuits that you didn't have to like

0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.800
<v Speaker 1>wire together yourself with dripping hot bits of solder, and

0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:57.679
<v Speaker 1>so this makes them more reliable, so you don't need

0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 1>as much error correction, et cetera. And that allows things

0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.920
<v Speaker 1>to be smaller and to be faster. So you've got

0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.200
<v Speaker 1>integrated circuits, you got wider data paths, you got shorter

0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.159
<v Speaker 1>distances to travel, and you have faster switching. All these

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.160
<v Speaker 1>things are why more transistors means faster computing.

0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.399
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And so when did we get our first transistor?

0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the transistor was invented in Bell Labs in

0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.320
<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty seven, I think it was. And there was

0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of research in the forties different kinds of

0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.560
<v Speaker 1>technologies for transistors. Try this, try that, try the other thing.

0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.080
<v Speaker 1>But the basic concept was invented in the late forties

0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.480
<v Speaker 1>in Bell Labs and you know, Bell Labs is one

0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.480
<v Speaker 1>of these like elements of another era, an institution that

0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.280
<v Speaker 1>I really miss. You know, it's a privately funded research

0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.080
<v Speaker 1>lab that did basic research. You know, this is an

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.399
<v Speaker 1>arm of the telephone company. But they just like gave

0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.680
<v Speaker 1>nerds money and said, hey, play around, figure stuff out,

0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.720
<v Speaker 1>and they came up with things like the transistor, which

0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.760
<v Speaker 1>is I think a trillion dollar idea would be underestimating it, right, Like,

0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.760
<v Speaker 1>it's literally the foundation of our entire economy. Its transformed

0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:02.560
<v Speaker 1>the way we live.

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.679
<v Speaker 1>And so I think even if every other piece of

0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.439
<v Speaker 1>science was a waste of money, this one brings the

0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:15.040
<v Speaker 1>average up like this one idea like means all of

0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.200
<v Speaker 1>science has been worthwhile just from a purely economical, cynical

0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.280
<v Speaker 1>point of view. And that's the way science works, right,

0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.040
<v Speaker 1>like a lot of fuzzes out and occasionally a huge,

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.240
<v Speaker 1>huge payoff. Anyway, it was the late nineteen forties people

0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:32.800
<v Speaker 1>figured this out. And you know, we've only had quantum

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:34.160
<v Speaker 1>mechanics for a couple of decades.

0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Then.

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.960
<v Speaker 1>People had ideas for making transistors before then, but weren't

0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 1>able to make it work. But at Bell Labs, smart

0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.680
<v Speaker 1>guys figured this out. One Nobel Prizes. It was really

0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:44.399
<v Speaker 1>pretty awesome.

0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Awesome, And when we get back, let's talk about how

0:20:47.160 --> 0:21:10.040
<v Speaker 2>we went about shrinking these transistors. All right, So in

0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.359
<v Speaker 2>nineteen forty seven, Bell Labs creates the transistor just in

0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 2>time for us to use it to get to space,

0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:18.520
<v Speaker 2>which is the most important topic that we have to

0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.360
<v Speaker 2>keep getting to every episode. All right, So now we've

0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.159
<v Speaker 2>got the transistor, how do we go about shrinking it?

0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Yes, the transistors are built out of semiconductors. You know,

0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.840
<v Speaker 1>you hear the semiconductor industry everywhere, And what does that

0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.320
<v Speaker 1>really mean? Well, we understand what conductor is, right, It's

0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.920
<v Speaker 1>something where electricity can flow. An insulator is something where

0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 1>electricity cannot flow. And to understand that, you have to

0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:43.960
<v Speaker 1>take your vision of the atom where you have like

0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.520
<v Speaker 1>electrons orbiting around the nucleus or being in fuzzy quantum

0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.000
<v Speaker 1>mechanical states, and think about what happens when you put

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:52.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of atoms together, Like, what is the energy

0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:55.879
<v Speaker 1>level of an electron around an iron atom? Well, it's

0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of levels. What happens when you have a

0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.399
<v Speaker 1>billion iron atoms and a lattice, what happens to those electrons? Well,

0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 1>they don't really belong to any individual nucleus anymore. They

0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.639
<v Speaker 1>sort of like move around the iron super highway. They

0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.680
<v Speaker 1>can flow around from here to there. And what distinguishes

0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:16.120
<v Speaker 1>a conductor from an insulator is whether or not there's

0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 1>a big gap between energy levels, like can the electrons

0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.520
<v Speaker 1>get up to those energy levels where they can flow

0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.600
<v Speaker 1>around between all the atoms or not. If they can

0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.600
<v Speaker 1>get up there, then it's a conductor. If there's a

0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.440
<v Speaker 1>really big gap so they can't get up there, then

0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.040
<v Speaker 1>it's an insulator. Semiconductors are things that are sort of

0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:36.959
<v Speaker 1>halfway in between. They have a medium sized gap between

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 1>the energy levels where the electrons are stuck around individual

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:42.240
<v Speaker 1>atoms and the ones where they're just flowing across the

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.920
<v Speaker 1>super highway. And so that's something you can control. If

0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:47.760
<v Speaker 1>you tweak it a little bit by like adding them

0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:49.960
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of germanium or this other kind of thing,

0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:52.960
<v Speaker 1>you can control that gap. And so what you want

0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:55.640
<v Speaker 1>when you're building circuits is you want places where things

0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:58.240
<v Speaker 1>conduct really well and then places where things conduct really

0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.720
<v Speaker 1>really terribly. So rather than having to have different kinds

0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 1>of material, like if I build a circuit in my garage,

0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:06.199
<v Speaker 1>I use copper for the wires and then to use

0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.920
<v Speaker 1>rubber for the insulators. It's better if you can have

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.080
<v Speaker 1>a single kind of material and sort of tweak it

0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:12.679
<v Speaker 1>and like, okay, I'm going to make this part of

0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:15.200
<v Speaker 1>it conductor and that part of it an insulator because

0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:18.520
<v Speaker 1>it allows you to print circuits onto your material.

0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And so what is the material you use?

0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 1>So we use silicon. Silicon is the semiconductor of choice,

0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.240
<v Speaker 1>and then you dope it with various things to change

0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.280
<v Speaker 1>its behavior to make it a conductor. And the way

0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 1>that we have shrunk transistors from pretty big stuff you

0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:37.320
<v Speaker 1>could see on your garage bench to tiny stuff almost

0:23:37.359 --> 0:23:41.040
<v Speaker 1>the size of atoms is through a technique called photolithography,

0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.360
<v Speaker 1>which essentially prints a circuit onto a piece of silicon.

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:47.240
<v Speaker 1>We grow these huge silicon wafers that are like ten

0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:50.200
<v Speaker 1>inches and then you want to print a circuit onto it,

0:23:50.400 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 1>and you want to print like billions and billions of transistors,

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 1>and you want them to be as small as possible.

0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:57.159
<v Speaker 1>For the reason we just point it out, So like,

0:23:57.280 --> 0:23:59.800
<v Speaker 1>how do you print this stuff onto a piece of

0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.919
<v Speaker 1>sar silicon? So this is what photolithography is. Essentially, you

0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:07.119
<v Speaker 1>design your circuit on the computer, and then you print

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.919
<v Speaker 1>on the surface of the silicon this thing called a

0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:13.880
<v Speaker 1>photo mask, and the photomask like protects the silicon from

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:15.639
<v Speaker 1>the next thing you're gonna do to it, which is

0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.160
<v Speaker 1>blast it with really high energy light. So you shoot

0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.479
<v Speaker 1>like super high energy light at the silicon which is

0:24:22.840 --> 0:24:25.400
<v Speaker 1>partially covered by this mask, and the parts that are

0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:28.640
<v Speaker 1>exposed get a little bit chemically changed. Then you dip

0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.159
<v Speaker 1>the whole thing in like acid, and the parts that

0:24:31.160 --> 0:24:34.040
<v Speaker 1>we're exposed get like eaten away, for example, and so

0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.879
<v Speaker 1>what you're left with is just the pattern that you wanted.

0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:41.240
<v Speaker 1>That's like a very hand wavy explanation of how photolithography works.

0:24:41.720 --> 0:24:44.560
<v Speaker 1>But the things to understand is that it's limited by

0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:48.719
<v Speaker 1>those photons. Like if you use photons that we really

0:24:48.800 --> 0:24:51.720
<v Speaker 1>wide wavelengths, then you're going to get a fuzzy picture.

0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.000
<v Speaker 1>If you use photons with really narrow wavelengths, which means

0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:58.520
<v Speaker 1>high energy photons, right, then you're gonna get a much

0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:02.360
<v Speaker 1>crisper picture. And so over the decades, we've been trying

0:25:02.400 --> 0:25:05.439
<v Speaker 1>to shrink these transistors to get more and more transistors

0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:08.160
<v Speaker 1>on these chips and have faster computers. And one way

0:25:08.160 --> 0:25:10.560
<v Speaker 1>to do that is to crank up the energy of

0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 1>those photons, and so now we're in the like extreme

0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 1>ultraviolet limit where the photons have a wavelength of like

0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.399
<v Speaker 1>thirteen or fourteen nanometers. Wow, And that's hard because it

0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 1>requires like special optics. You can't just use normal lenses

0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:26.320
<v Speaker 1>to bend this kind of light. It's why it's very

0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:29.160
<v Speaker 1>hard to do, like X ray optics. Also, the higher

0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:31.080
<v Speaker 1>the energy light, the harder it is to bend it.

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Have we maxed this out?

0:25:32.920 --> 0:25:35.679
<v Speaker 1>We probably have maxed this out, because anything beyond this

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:40.080
<v Speaker 1>requires insane optics. Like already the optics are insane. You know,

0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:43.800
<v Speaker 1>making a single mask for these things costs like hundreds

0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.240
<v Speaker 1>of thousands of dollars, and there's like a few places

0:25:47.240 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 1>in the world you can do this kind of stuff.

0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.920
<v Speaker 1>The equipment is extremely expensive, the operating conditions are very

0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 1>very particular. You have to have specialized clean rooms. Like

0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:01.239
<v Speaker 1>this is really the pinnacle of technology. It's incredible, and

0:26:01.280 --> 0:26:03.760
<v Speaker 1>that's why you know a few of these players in

0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:07.320
<v Speaker 1>this field, like the Taiwannee semiconductor industry is so important

0:26:07.480 --> 0:26:11.520
<v Speaker 1>for the worldwide computing industry. Like a single company goes

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:14.560
<v Speaker 1>down and like we can't make computers anymore.

0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:18.240
<v Speaker 2>Wow, Oh my gosh. Right, all of the geopolitical tensions

0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:19.800
<v Speaker 2>just came into focus exactly.

0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.679
<v Speaker 1>That's one reason why Taiwan is so important because a

0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:25.280
<v Speaker 1>lot of this stuff is done by Taiwan, these firms.

0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:28.800
<v Speaker 2>All Right, so we figured out photo lithography and we've

0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:31.399
<v Speaker 2>kind of reached the limit. Yeah, is that the end

0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 2>of the story.

0:26:32.160 --> 0:26:34.439
<v Speaker 1>It's not quite the end of the story. And you know,

0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:36.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm more to say about like how impressive it is.

0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:39.000
<v Speaker 1>Like in the mid nineties, we were doing things at

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:42.280
<v Speaker 1>like three hundred and fifteen nanimeters scale, which sounds pretty awesome,

0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:45.399
<v Speaker 1>Like that sounds pretty tiny. And then late nineties it

0:26:45.440 --> 0:26:47.520
<v Speaker 1>was like one hundred and eighty animeters, and the two

0:26:47.600 --> 0:26:51.440
<v Speaker 1>thousands it was sub one hundred nanimeters. These days we're

0:26:51.440 --> 0:26:55.720
<v Speaker 1>getting down to like ten nanimeters single nanometers. It's amazing,

0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.440
<v Speaker 1>but it's getting harder and harder because we're already beyond

0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:02.119
<v Speaker 1>the wave length of the light that we're using, right,

0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:05.879
<v Speaker 1>and we're approaching the size of the atom. Right, silk

0:27:05.920 --> 0:27:09.679
<v Speaker 1>and atoms are like zero point two nanometers across, so

0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:12.280
<v Speaker 1>like you're going to be bild a transistor out of something.

0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:14.440
<v Speaker 1>It's like you know, you can't make things out of

0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:17.000
<v Speaker 1>legos if you only have a few of the bricks, right,

0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:21.479
<v Speaker 1>And so it's challenging to make transistors smaller than about

0:27:21.520 --> 0:27:25.440
<v Speaker 1>a nanometer because you're really reaching that fundamental limit of

0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.760
<v Speaker 1>the size of the silicon atom. And every year it

0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:32.160
<v Speaker 1>gets harder. Like it's true that we've increased the transistor

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.919
<v Speaker 1>density every two years, we've doubled it, but the amount

0:27:35.960 --> 0:27:39.399
<v Speaker 1>of money spent in this research has increased by a

0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.879
<v Speaker 1>factor of ten or twenty, so it's not like a

0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:44.959
<v Speaker 1>constant effort every year to achieve this. We have to

0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.200
<v Speaker 1>ramp up the energy and the creativity. And that's great,

0:27:48.280 --> 0:27:50.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's like inspired all sorts of cool things

0:27:50.880 --> 0:27:54.520
<v Speaker 1>and spinoffs and whatever. But it gets really really complicated.

0:27:55.040 --> 0:27:57.439
<v Speaker 1>And the sort of cutting edge of this is to

0:27:57.440 --> 0:28:01.160
<v Speaker 1>now start stacking these transistors, so well, don't just think

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:03.760
<v Speaker 1>of it as a plane. Let's go up in the

0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:07.120
<v Speaker 1>third dimension. Let's make the transistors more powerful by shrinking

0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:09.200
<v Speaker 1>them further and then allowing them to grow in sort

0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:13.240
<v Speaker 1>of the third dimension above this sort of plane. And

0:28:13.359 --> 0:28:16.520
<v Speaker 1>the leading edge of technology right now are these transistors

0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:20.119
<v Speaker 1>called fin fet so FET, which stands for a field

0:28:20.160 --> 0:28:24.120
<v Speaker 1>effet transistor and then a finn meaning like they literally

0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:28.080
<v Speaker 1>have this like fin over the gate that controls it

0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:29.840
<v Speaker 1>like a physical thing. It looks like a shark fin.

0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:34.120
<v Speaker 1>That makes it possible to be efficient while shrinking even further,

0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:36.600
<v Speaker 1>so you can make the sort of footprint of it

0:28:36.760 --> 0:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>smaller while keeping its effectiveness because you have this third dimension.

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:43.800
<v Speaker 1>And so that's what stacking is. And really people think

0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:46.760
<v Speaker 1>that we've reached the limit of what we can do technologically,

0:28:46.800 --> 0:28:48.920
<v Speaker 1>and as some of the listeners have said, we're going

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 1>in other directions, like instead of making your CPU more dense,

0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 1>you just have multiple cores, or you start building other

0:28:55.920 --> 0:28:59.760
<v Speaker 1>dedicated stuff like graphics processing units that are really good

0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 1>at linear algebra, which is needed for graphics and also

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:06.400
<v Speaker 1>for machine learning. And so we're sort of like simultaneously

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:08.520
<v Speaker 1>trying to go in many directions at once to improve

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.360
<v Speaker 1>the power of computing. But it's not clear that we

0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:13.800
<v Speaker 1>can keep doing this, and a lot of people think

0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:16.040
<v Speaker 1>that we really are at the edge of what we

0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:17.720
<v Speaker 1>can do to improve computing speed.

0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.080
<v Speaker 2>Wow, and so stacking isn't going to be the magic

0:29:20.120 --> 0:29:22.280
<v Speaker 2>solution because there's like limits on stacking.

0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:24.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, like stack can get you a little further.

0:29:24.800 --> 0:29:27.080
<v Speaker 1>But if we're going to keep doubling, then it's hard.

0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:29.000
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I think there's something to be said

0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:33.600
<v Speaker 1>about the sociological impact of this doubling. You know, Moore's

0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:36.160
<v Speaker 1>law is not something that comes out of like the

0:29:36.160 --> 0:29:39.959
<v Speaker 1>fundamental laws of physics. It's something that was predicted and

0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.640
<v Speaker 1>that we maintained really over decades, which is really incredible.

0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 1>Like one of Intel's earliest processors, the four thousand and four,

0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:50.400
<v Speaker 1>had twenty three hundred transistors in it, right, whereas like

0:29:50.640 --> 0:29:52.959
<v Speaker 1>the eighty three eighty six, which I've spent a lot

0:29:52.960 --> 0:29:56.280
<v Speaker 1>of time programming on as a teenager, had like hundreds

0:29:56.320 --> 0:29:58.800
<v Speaker 1>of thousands of transistors in this MacBook I'm sitting in

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:01.880
<v Speaker 1>front of has billions. It's incredible, but it's sort of

0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:04.760
<v Speaker 1>guided the field. I think people because they thought this

0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:08.960
<v Speaker 1>was possible and maybe even inevitable, they worked for it.

0:30:08.600 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 1>It's a target, you know, And so if you think

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 1>something as possible, then like you stay late and you

0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.040
<v Speaker 1>push hard and you come up with new ideas, and

0:30:16.080 --> 0:30:19.040
<v Speaker 1>so in some sense it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so first of all, have we hit the limit

0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:23.520
<v Speaker 2>to More's law? Already, or you just think we're going

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:26.240
<v Speaker 2>to hit it soon, Like when is the first year

0:30:26.280 --> 0:30:28.560
<v Speaker 2>you think where we'll be like Moore's law gone.

0:30:30.480 --> 0:30:32.520
<v Speaker 1>I think we're right at that inflection point. You know,

0:30:32.560 --> 0:30:36.360
<v Speaker 1>we're still seeing improvements in speed, we're still seeing big

0:30:36.400 --> 0:30:40.160
<v Speaker 1>boosts and productivity, but we're sort of running out of

0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:43.400
<v Speaker 1>avenues and so I still see that, Like my MacBook

0:30:43.480 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 1>is faster than the one I gave my son, which

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 1>is my two year old MacBook, But I don't know

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:50.000
<v Speaker 1>that the one I'm going to get in two years

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:53.120
<v Speaker 1>is going to be as much faster. So I think

0:30:53.120 --> 0:30:54.520
<v Speaker 1>we're right at that inflection point.

0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:57.240
<v Speaker 2>So that feels a little scary to me. So, like,

0:30:57.360 --> 0:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, over time, we've gotten computers that are better

0:31:00.200 --> 0:31:02.720
<v Speaker 2>and so at least, you know, in my field, almost

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>every five years you expect, you know, the statistical models

0:31:05.920 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of the systems that we study to get more complicated

0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.680
<v Speaker 2>so that we can get a better understanding out of

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.640
<v Speaker 2>each one of our data sets. Are we not going

0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:15.360
<v Speaker 2>to be able to do that anymore? Or do you

0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:17.280
<v Speaker 2>think in twenty years our computers are just going to

0:31:17.280 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 2>start getting bigger again until they fill up a room,

0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Because we're going to want to keep getting more complicated

0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:24.240
<v Speaker 2>in our analyses.

0:31:24.640 --> 0:31:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I think we're already seeing our computing getting bigger.

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:30.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, think about like the data centers that are

0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:33.160
<v Speaker 1>being built by Meta and Microsoft is like trying to

0:31:33.200 --> 0:31:36.160
<v Speaker 1>turn back on nuclear reactors because they need the power

0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:39.040
<v Speaker 1>for their AI data centers. These things are vast and

0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:42.320
<v Speaker 1>they're consuming huge amounts of our resources. So I think, yeah,

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.040
<v Speaker 1>our appetite for computing is just growing, and even if

0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:46.920
<v Speaker 1>our computers don't get faster, we're just going to keep

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:49.760
<v Speaker 1>building them bigger and bigger. But I also think that

0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:51.239
<v Speaker 1>for those of us who do things that are not

0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:55.760
<v Speaker 1>directly just computing, that there are other ways to increase speed.

0:31:56.000 --> 0:31:57.840
<v Speaker 1>I was talking to Katrina about this, and she was

0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:01.800
<v Speaker 1>saying that Moore's law also kind of applies to genomics.

0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:05.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, like the first study of a human genome

0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:09.040
<v Speaker 1>costs like how many millions for one genome, And then

0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:11.320
<v Speaker 1>the NIA had a target like it should cost less

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.320
<v Speaker 1>than one thousand dollars to sequence a human genome, and

0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:16.480
<v Speaker 1>they hit that target and now it's cheaper than one

0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:19.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars. And where does this come from? Part of

0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:21.640
<v Speaker 1>it come from computing, but also part of it comes

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:25.240
<v Speaker 1>from like the miniaturization of biology. And I've seen this

0:32:25.440 --> 0:32:28.320
<v Speaker 1>just like observing her field. Something that used to be

0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:31.640
<v Speaker 1>like a PhD level of work then in a few

0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.280
<v Speaker 1>years becomes a little box on the lab bench. You

0:32:34.320 --> 0:32:37.120
<v Speaker 1>press a button and it's done while you're at lunch, right, Yeah,

0:32:37.120 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 1>and that allows you to now do things that were

0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:43.400
<v Speaker 1>impossible ten years earlier. And that kind of transformation of

0:32:43.440 --> 0:32:46.800
<v Speaker 1>the scope of the capacity of the field enables broader,

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:49.880
<v Speaker 1>deeper thinking. And that's not just computing, right, that's the

0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 1>menigtization of like the actual biology, like micro little bits.

0:32:53.960 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>It's essentially like what therapnose was tapping into this feeling like, oh,

0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.800
<v Speaker 1>eventually we should be able to diagnose diseases with tiny

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:02.480
<v Speaker 1>life jobs of blood in this kind of sense. So

0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:05.760
<v Speaker 1>I think that there's lots of dimensions that we can

0:33:05.960 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 1>follow for improving our scientific and technological industrial capacity. Is

0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:12.640
<v Speaker 1>not just is my computer faster.

0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:16.720
<v Speaker 2>So when someone says, like you just did such and

0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:21.880
<v Speaker 2>such follows Moore's law, do they essentially mean we do

0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:25.200
<v Speaker 2>it better with smaller stuff, and like we do it

0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:27.480
<v Speaker 2>exponentially better in particular.

0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's about exponential growth that's a crucial

0:33:31.120 --> 0:33:34.640
<v Speaker 1>thing because you know, exponential growth builds on itself. You know,

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>it's like putting a dollar in the bank. Every year

0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.200
<v Speaker 1>you have more dollars, and those dollars earn more dollars,

0:33:40.200 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 1>and eventually you have all the dollars. Whereas like if

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:46.000
<v Speaker 1>you're just selling lemonade and you're making a dollar every day,

0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:48.840
<v Speaker 1>you're making the same amount of dollars every day. It's

0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:51.760
<v Speaker 1>not increasing. So it's all about that exponential growth. And

0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:54.520
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's what people mean when they refer

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:57.280
<v Speaker 1>to Moore's law sort of more colloquially than just like

0:33:57.440 --> 0:33:59.480
<v Speaker 1>the density of transistors on a chip.

0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:02.480
<v Speaker 2>That's kind of interesting because like Moore's law isn't really

0:34:02.480 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 2>a law, like it's an observation. And so it seems

0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:07.560
<v Speaker 2>like now anytime we see exponential growth, we say the

0:34:07.600 --> 0:34:11.880
<v Speaker 2>words Moore's law instead of just saying exponential growth or

0:34:11.920 --> 0:34:13.200
<v Speaker 2>am I being negative?

0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:16.360
<v Speaker 1>No? I think you're right, And I think it says

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:20.200
<v Speaker 1>something about our aspirations. You know, we live in a

0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:23.520
<v Speaker 1>time when we expect our children's lives to be very

0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:26.600
<v Speaker 1>different from our lives and our grandparent lives, and that's

0:34:26.960 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 1>really unusual, Like most of human history. You could tell

0:34:30.120 --> 0:34:31.520
<v Speaker 1>your kids what their life was going to be like,

0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:33.440
<v Speaker 1>because it's going to be basically the same as yours

0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:37.120
<v Speaker 1>and your grandparents for like the last ten thousand years, right,

0:34:37.160 --> 0:34:41.520
<v Speaker 1>because like change was inconceivable because nobody had ever experienced it.

0:34:42.120 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 1>But now we live in a time when, like we

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:47.000
<v Speaker 1>know that's not true, and so I think it leaves

0:34:47.080 --> 0:34:49.880
<v Speaker 1>us with this like gap in our wisdom. And then

0:34:49.920 --> 0:34:52.480
<v Speaker 1>we project forward, and some of us are optimistic and

0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:55.480
<v Speaker 1>we're like, Yay, this is going to change our lives

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:57.840
<v Speaker 1>in a way that solves all of our problems. And

0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:00.640
<v Speaker 1>as you'll hear from Adam, some of us are less optimistic,

0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:03.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, about what this means and whether it's the

0:35:03.800 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 1>right way to place our bets.

0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:08.080
<v Speaker 2>I do feel like that was a slightly simplified view

0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:11.400
<v Speaker 2>of history, But this isn't Daniel and Kelly's historical universe.

0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:12.239
<v Speaker 2>So we're moving on.

0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I have to fit it into about one minute,

0:35:14.360 --> 0:35:16.040
<v Speaker 1>so I'm not going to do a deep dive. But yeah,

0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:18.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, do you disagree with me about the broader

0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.960
<v Speaker 1>assessment of the way that human experience has changed.

0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:24.839
<v Speaker 2>I do think human experience was similar for a really

0:35:24.880 --> 0:35:27.319
<v Speaker 2>long time. You know, like when our ancestors moved out

0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:30.000
<v Speaker 2>of Africa, there was probably a lot that changed in

0:35:30.040 --> 0:35:34.040
<v Speaker 2>a couple generations, and the Industrial Revolution and climate. Yeah, yeah,

0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:36.759
<v Speaker 2>I think there's probably been a lot of moments where

0:35:36.800 --> 0:35:39.359
<v Speaker 2>things were like, oh crud, but usually probably they were

0:35:39.400 --> 0:35:42.160
<v Speaker 2>getting worse, whereas now we're hoping that it's getting better.

0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:47.200
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, so when I was reading Adam Becker's new

0:35:47.239 --> 0:35:51.640
<v Speaker 2>book More Everything Forever, there was a discussion on Moore's

0:35:51.680 --> 0:35:54.759
<v Speaker 2>Law where I realized, like, oh my gosh, I fundamentally

0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:58.239
<v Speaker 2>didn't understand Moore's Law very well or what like underpinned

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:00.839
<v Speaker 2>Moore's Law, and I didn't realize that we were, you know,

0:36:00.960 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 2>perhaps reaching the end of Moore's Law. And so we

0:36:04.400 --> 0:36:07.120
<v Speaker 2>reached out to Adam Becker and asked if he would

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:10.480
<v Speaker 2>talk to us about sort of the implication of, you know,

0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.359
<v Speaker 2>the death of Moore's Law. I'll be super dramatic about it,

0:36:13.480 --> 0:36:17.759
<v Speaker 2>but how this expectation of exponential growth impacts our view

0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:22.000
<v Speaker 2>of the future in ways that are not always necessarily realistic.

0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:44.480
<v Speaker 1>Let's say, all right, so then we're very happy to

0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:48.799
<v Speaker 1>welcome to the podcast. Adam Becker, who is an astrophysicist

0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:53.200
<v Speaker 1>turned author. He wrote the widely acclaimed book What Is Real,

0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:56.000
<v Speaker 1>one of my favorite books about quantum chinnings. If you

0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:58.400
<v Speaker 1>write me to ask for a book about quantum mechanics

0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:01.600
<v Speaker 1>that explain stuff in an accessible way, often recommended. And

0:37:01.680 --> 0:37:05.800
<v Speaker 1>he has a new book out called More Everything Forever

0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:09.920
<v Speaker 1>about the rise of techno utopiasts and how we can

0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.760
<v Speaker 1>project our future and the future of technology. Adam, Welcome

0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:16.520
<v Speaker 1>back to the podcast. Thanks, it's great to be here.

0:37:16.800 --> 0:37:20.279
<v Speaker 1>So let's start just by talking about Moore's law. It's

0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the foundation of so much of the techno utopian movement.

0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Why do you think that it has inspired sort of

0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:31.960
<v Speaker 1>this broader fanaticism, especially when it's just like an empirical observation,

0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:34.360
<v Speaker 1>not like a deep law of the universe.

0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's a good question.

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:42.000
<v Speaker 5>I mean Moore's law. Yeah, it is an empirical observation.

0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:48.360
<v Speaker 5>But it's so regular, it's so comforting, and it has

0:37:48.440 --> 0:37:52.160
<v Speaker 5>you know, the fact that Moore's law held more or

0:37:52.280 --> 0:37:57.560
<v Speaker 5>less accurately for what about fifty years. It did change

0:37:58.000 --> 0:38:00.760
<v Speaker 5>a lot of things about the world, and it took

0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:08.960
<v Speaker 5>computers from being these large, slow, you know, refrigerator sized

0:38:09.040 --> 0:38:13.600
<v Speaker 5>things that live in mainframe rooms at corporations to you know,

0:38:13.760 --> 0:38:15.480
<v Speaker 5>tiny little things that live in our pockets, are on

0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:20.560
<v Speaker 5>our wrists and have much more power than all of

0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:23.440
<v Speaker 5>the main frames that existed, you know in the nineteen

0:38:23.480 --> 0:38:29.400
<v Speaker 5>seventies combined, right, caused all sorts of changes in our society,

0:38:29.760 --> 0:38:32.400
<v Speaker 5>some for the better, so much for the worse. But

0:38:32.520 --> 0:38:37.799
<v Speaker 5>you know, living through that, it seemed like clockwork, right,

0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.000
<v Speaker 5>you know. I mean I only lived through like the

0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:42.960
<v Speaker 5>last part of it, But I remember when I was

0:38:42.960 --> 0:38:44.920
<v Speaker 5>a kid, it seemed like, you know, computers were just

0:38:45.040 --> 0:38:48.600
<v Speaker 5>always getting smaller and faster and better every single year,

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:52.239
<v Speaker 5>and you could just get you know, the advice was

0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:54.880
<v Speaker 5>wait as long as you can to get a new computer,

0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:58.040
<v Speaker 5>because the longer you wait, the better it'll be. Right,

0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:01.200
<v Speaker 5>And it was this amazing thing, and it made a

0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:03.759
<v Speaker 5>lot of people a lot of money, and a few

0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:07.120
<v Speaker 5>people truly enormous amounts of money. And so you put

0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:09.239
<v Speaker 5>all of that together and it's it kind of makes

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.920
<v Speaker 5>some sense that some people would take it extremely seriously

0:39:12.960 --> 0:39:17.279
<v Speaker 5>as this general thing, because it seemed to be, you know,

0:39:17.400 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 5>if you lived a comfortable middle or upper class life,

0:39:22.320 --> 0:39:24.520
<v Speaker 5>it seemed like the most important thing in the world.

0:39:24.520 --> 0:39:28.520
<v Speaker 5>In the late twentieth century, right, and it wasn't really

0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 5>like anything that you'd seen before. It was easy to think, oh,

0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 5>this is just going to continue. So Ray Kurzweil is

0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:40.759
<v Speaker 5>this inventor and futurist who you know. He made like

0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:46.600
<v Speaker 5>real serious contributions to text to speech technology and like

0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:50.280
<v Speaker 5>assistive devices for the visually impaired, and I think hearing

0:39:50.280 --> 0:39:53.400
<v Speaker 5>impaired as well. You know, he made serious contributions to

0:39:53.520 --> 0:39:58.000
<v Speaker 5>the field of electronic instruments, like you know, musical instruments.

0:39:58.640 --> 0:40:00.480
<v Speaker 3>But he is best known as a futurist.

0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:02.200
<v Speaker 5>He is best known as somebody who you know, makes

0:40:02.239 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 5>these forecasts about what the future is going to be like.

0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:08.120
<v Speaker 1>So he's a retired electrical engineer, you're saying, essentially, yeah,

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:09.640
<v Speaker 1>I have a lot of those in my inbox.

0:40:10.280 --> 0:40:12.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, me too, man.

0:40:14.120 --> 0:40:16.839
<v Speaker 5>I'm pretty sure that if you put anywhere on the

0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:19.640
<v Speaker 5>Internet that you have a PhD in physics, you get

0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:21.840
<v Speaker 5>a lot of retired electrical engineers in your inbox.

0:40:22.800 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Guys, my inbox has pictures of feces from people who

0:40:25.719 --> 0:40:28.600
<v Speaker 2>want to note the parasite infections. I'm feeling pretty low

0:40:28.719 --> 0:40:30.160
<v Speaker 2>on sympathy right now.

0:40:30.400 --> 0:40:34.080
<v Speaker 5>Oh, but I once got so sorry for you guys.

0:40:34.200 --> 0:40:35.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, we should.

0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:37.600
<v Speaker 5>We should have a separate episode just talking about what's

0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:42.120
<v Speaker 5>in our inboxes, because I have some crazy stuff in

0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:43.120
<v Speaker 5>any event.

0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:45.440
<v Speaker 1>All right, So you're telling us how Ray Kurzweild was

0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:49.880
<v Speaker 1>thinking about how Moore's law is transforming technology and that's

0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:54.040
<v Speaker 1>the engine of transformation of society and predicting the future

0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:55.840
<v Speaker 1>of society more broadly exactly.

0:40:55.960 --> 0:41:01.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, And like Kurzweil extends Moore's Law in his Forecasts

0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.239
<v Speaker 5>of the Future and says, oh, this is part of

0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:08.160
<v Speaker 5>a more general trend in the history of technology and

0:41:08.360 --> 0:41:12.320
<v Speaker 5>the history of you know, even life in the universe.

0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.239
<v Speaker 5>And he calls it the law of accelerating returns, where

0:41:15.239 --> 0:41:18.239
<v Speaker 5>he says, you know, once you have better technology, it's

0:41:18.280 --> 0:41:20.279
<v Speaker 5>going to allow you to make the technology that you've

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 5>already got even better, and then that'll just be a

0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:26.520
<v Speaker 5>self reinforcing cycle that leads to this exponential trend. And

0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:30.000
<v Speaker 5>More's law is just one manifestation of that trend, and

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:33.080
<v Speaker 5>it's going to you know, he says, it's something that

0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:35.440
<v Speaker 5>you can see if you look back through the entire

0:41:35.560 --> 0:41:39.560
<v Speaker 5>history not just of human technology, but evolution of life

0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:41.839
<v Speaker 5>on Earth, because you see the same thing with biological

0:41:42.160 --> 0:41:45.480
<v Speaker 5>quote unquote technology, and he says, you know, this is

0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:48.399
<v Speaker 5>going to continue, and in short order we are going

0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:50.959
<v Speaker 5>to reach this point that he calls the singularity, which

0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:54.440
<v Speaker 5>is where you've got, you know, technology that has developed

0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:56.799
<v Speaker 5>to such an advanced degree that it gives us, you know,

0:41:56.920 --> 0:42:00.560
<v Speaker 5>godlike powers of creation and destruction and transform and just

0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:04.799
<v Speaker 5>changes the fundamental nature of life on Earth and in

0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:05.400
<v Speaker 5>the universe.

0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, a lot of what you said sounds reasonable. R

0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:11.520
<v Speaker 1>There is evolution, and there is transformation, and things are

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:14.560
<v Speaker 1>changing more rapidly. But from reading your book and from

0:42:14.600 --> 0:42:17.800
<v Speaker 1>your tone, I'm guessing you don't agree with Cursewil about

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:20.440
<v Speaker 1>singularity and how we're all going to be techno gods

0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:22.960
<v Speaker 1>in the future. Why not? Why will Daniel not be

0:42:23.000 --> 0:42:23.759
<v Speaker 1>a techno god?

0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:24.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I mean, look Daniel in particular, Yes.

0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I have a personal stake in this question.

0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:32.719
<v Speaker 5>Now, yes, Daniel in particular, Yeah, you are not going

0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:36.759
<v Speaker 5>to be a techno god, Daniel, because you know, by

0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:39.520
<v Speaker 5>having me on this podcast, Ray Kurzwild is going to

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:41.440
<v Speaker 5>put you on his list, and then you know he

0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:43.960
<v Speaker 5>won't allow you to ascend to God.

0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:46.080
<v Speaker 2>I knew this was a mistake.

0:42:46.200 --> 0:42:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, worse than trying to fight a land born Asia. Huh, yes, exactly.

0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:52.839
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, No, that's number two.

0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 5>Now number one is inviting Adam Becker onto your podcast.

0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:01.040
<v Speaker 5>But I mean, look, Curzwild is taking this exponential trend

0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:03.200
<v Speaker 5>and just extending it out into the future and saying

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:06.600
<v Speaker 5>it's going to last forever. And the one thing that's

0:43:06.719 --> 0:43:10.000
<v Speaker 5>always true about exponential trends is that they end.

0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:10.960
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:14.560
<v Speaker 5>If you see any sort of exponential trend in nature

0:43:14.920 --> 0:43:18.520
<v Speaker 5>or in you know, technology or whatever, your first thought

0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:23.520
<v Speaker 5>should be, oh, that can't last, because it just doesn't.

0:43:23.560 --> 0:43:27.640
<v Speaker 5>There are not enough resources, there's not enough space, there's

0:43:27.719 --> 0:43:31.840
<v Speaker 5>not enough anything to allow exponential trends in general to

0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:36.239
<v Speaker 5>continue forever. One of the examples that Churzwild gives in

0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:38.600
<v Speaker 5>his book The Singularity Is Near which is probably his

0:43:38.640 --> 0:43:41.280
<v Speaker 5>most famous book from about two thousand and five.

0:43:41.520 --> 0:43:43.799
<v Speaker 1>Doesn't he have a few books like The Singularity is Near,

0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:46.759
<v Speaker 1>The Singularity is near Er, the Singularity is near Ish?

0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:47.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:50.760
<v Speaker 5>The Singularity is Near Er came out last year, and

0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:52.920
<v Speaker 5>when I tell people that that's the title, they usually

0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:53.640
<v Speaker 5>don't believe me.

0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:55.920
<v Speaker 3>But that is actually the title. He wrote a book

0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.359
<v Speaker 3>called the singularity is nearer.

0:43:58.400 --> 0:44:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Next year, the singularity is near your ear.

0:44:01.160 --> 0:44:03.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, neariest.

0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:11.719
<v Speaker 5>But the classic example in biology of exponential growth is

0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:15.279
<v Speaker 5>something like bacterial growth in a petri dish and yeah,

0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:18.279
<v Speaker 5>if you chart the number of bacteria in this you know,

0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:23.160
<v Speaker 5>nutrient rich medium over time, Yeah, it grows exponentially until

0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:25.720
<v Speaker 5>they fill the dish and eat all of the agar

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:28.319
<v Speaker 5>and then they die.

0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:31.120
<v Speaker 2>To try to play Devil's advocates, so when I was

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:33.880
<v Speaker 2>talking to space settlement folks, they would say something like,

0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:37.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, the reason we need to go into space

0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:40.080
<v Speaker 2>is because exponential growth does end at some point. But

0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:43.040
<v Speaker 2>our species is so amazing that we can see when

0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:46.400
<v Speaker 2>we're getting close to the like asymptope and the exponential curve,

0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 2>and so we can go out to space and get

0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:51.480
<v Speaker 2>resources and we can be more proactive about it. What

0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:53.240
<v Speaker 2>is wrong about that argument?

0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:55.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:57.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean where to start?

0:44:56.440 --> 0:44:56.520
<v Speaker 3>Ye?

0:44:57.320 --> 0:44:58.200
<v Speaker 2>What you got to pick somewhere?

0:44:58.280 --> 0:45:01.080
<v Speaker 5>Okay, I'm going to pick on you know, I'm going

0:45:01.120 --> 0:45:02.840
<v Speaker 5>to do what we should all strive to do, or

0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:04.719
<v Speaker 5>what I strive to do, and punch up right, I'm

0:45:04.719 --> 0:45:06.080
<v Speaker 5>going to pick on somebody bigger than me.

0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:09.040
<v Speaker 3>Jeff Bezos makes the same argument, right, Yeah.

0:45:09.040 --> 0:45:12.640
<v Speaker 5>Jeff Bezos says that we need to go out into

0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:16.560
<v Speaker 5>space because of exactly this. He says, you know, we

0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:20.839
<v Speaker 5>are using exponentially more energy as time goes on, and

0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:23.600
<v Speaker 5>if that trend continues as it has for decades, if

0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:27.520
<v Speaker 5>not centuries, then in about two three hundred years, we're

0:45:27.560 --> 0:45:29.920
<v Speaker 5>going to be using all of the energy on Earth

0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:32.160
<v Speaker 5>that we get from the Sun and will have used

0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:35.359
<v Speaker 5>up all of the non renewable resources. And so at

0:45:35.360 --> 0:45:37.160
<v Speaker 5>that point we need to go out into space, if

0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:39.200
<v Speaker 5>not before, then otherwise we're going to have what he

0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:42.719
<v Speaker 5>calls a civilization of stasis and rationing. And you know,

0:45:42.800 --> 0:45:46.160
<v Speaker 5>he's not wrong about the first part. If somehow we

0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:49.359
<v Speaker 5>continue that exponential trend in energy usage, then yeah, and

0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:52.399
<v Speaker 5>I think it's in about three four hundred years, we'd

0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:54.880
<v Speaker 5>be using all of the energy available to us on Earth.

0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:58.120
<v Speaker 5>And also we'd be using so much energy that like

0:45:58.239 --> 0:46:02.080
<v Speaker 5>the waste heat from our energy usage would like boil

0:46:02.120 --> 0:46:02.880
<v Speaker 5>off the oceans.

0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:07.080
<v Speaker 3>We can't we can't do that, right, it's not possible.

0:46:07.600 --> 0:46:10.520
<v Speaker 5>I mean, putting aside that, you know, it's it's implausible

0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:13.319
<v Speaker 5>that that trend will continue. The problem is with the

0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:16.799
<v Speaker 5>second half, because yeah, Okay, we get like three to

0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 5>four hundred more years here on Earth if you continue

0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:21.759
<v Speaker 5>that trend. So Bezos says, we have to go out

0:46:21.800 --> 0:46:23.920
<v Speaker 5>into space, and you know what he doesn't say is

0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:27.440
<v Speaker 5>where where resources are unlimited, but you know he implies it.

0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:31.640
<v Speaker 5>The problem is that if you really want exponential growth

0:46:31.719 --> 0:46:34.120
<v Speaker 5>to continue, going out into space, it doesn't actually help

0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:36.560
<v Speaker 5>you that much if you're looking on a timescale of centuries,

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:41.800
<v Speaker 5>because if you do that, like about I think it's

0:46:41.840 --> 0:46:45.520
<v Speaker 5>like one thousand years after we hit that point of

0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.320
<v Speaker 5>using all of the sunlight that hits Earth, we get

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:50.680
<v Speaker 5>to a point where we're just using the entire energy

0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:56.120
<v Speaker 5>output of the Sun. And then if we spot Bezos

0:46:56.160 --> 0:46:59.560
<v Speaker 5>and company a warp drive so they can go faster

0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:02.839
<v Speaker 5>than the line to try to amass even more resources

0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:05.960
<v Speaker 5>very very quickly outside of the Solar system, which we

0:47:06.000 --> 0:47:09.000
<v Speaker 5>shouldn't spot them a warp drive. There's no reason to

0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:10.560
<v Speaker 5>think that you can build a warp drive, and a

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:12.680
<v Speaker 5>lot of reason to think that you can't. But if

0:47:12.719 --> 0:47:15.640
<v Speaker 5>we do spot them a warp drive, that only gets

0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:18.480
<v Speaker 5>you like about another two thousand years before you're using

0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:23.400
<v Speaker 5>all of the energy in the observable universe. Wow, so

0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:28.520
<v Speaker 5>you know there are limits, growth ends, and the fact

0:47:28.640 --> 0:47:31.520
<v Speaker 5>is that you know, all of that is wildly implausible.

0:47:31.560 --> 0:47:34.160
<v Speaker 5>It's not like the lesson that I want people to

0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.960
<v Speaker 5>take away from all of this is, oh, well, we

0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:39.640
<v Speaker 5>better keep in mind that growth has to end at

0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:42.280
<v Speaker 5>some point to the next like three thousand days years.

0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:44.719
<v Speaker 5>The answer is, oh, no, growth has to end a

0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:49.000
<v Speaker 5>lot sooner than that, because you know, going out into

0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:51.839
<v Speaker 5>space has lots of problems, even putting aside the lack

0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:54.799
<v Speaker 5>of warp drive, just living in the Solar System is

0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 5>an extraordinarily difficult and dubious proposition. To give Bezos a

0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:01.959
<v Speaker 5>little bit of cris after ragging on him just now,

0:48:02.200 --> 0:48:04.319
<v Speaker 5>one of the things I like that Jeff Bezos has

0:48:04.360 --> 0:48:07.320
<v Speaker 5>said is he makes fun of Elon Musk for wanting

0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:09.200
<v Speaker 5>to go to Mars because Mars sucks.

0:48:09.680 --> 0:48:11.759
<v Speaker 3>But Bezos's solution is.

0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.640
<v Speaker 5>You know, for going out into space, it's not considerably better,

0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.640
<v Speaker 5>which is to build like hundreds of thousands or millions

0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:21.920
<v Speaker 5>of enormous city size space stations and then have everybody

0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:22.719
<v Speaker 5>live inside of them.

0:48:22.800 --> 0:48:26.080
<v Speaker 3>This is also not a great idea for many many reasons.

0:48:26.440 --> 0:48:29.160
<v Speaker 1>All right, So it's reasonable, I think to make these

0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:33.080
<v Speaker 1>arguments against like the strongest version of those claims. You know,

0:48:33.400 --> 0:48:36.680
<v Speaker 1>exponential growth will last forever. Sure, and you're right, that's

0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:39.840
<v Speaker 1>obviously practical because the universe is finite, or the observable

0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:41.160
<v Speaker 1>part of it is finite at least.

0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:41.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, But what if we just like water down those

0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:45.880
<v Speaker 1>claims a little bit and we just say, you know,

0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:50.560
<v Speaker 1>technology is transforming society very rapidly, and even the future

0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:54.760
<v Speaker 1>you describe as refuting exponential growth. That sounds pretty awesome.

0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Like if in two thousand years we're tapping into all

0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:00.239
<v Speaker 1>the energy from the Sun and nearby stars and have

0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:03.759
<v Speaker 1>an incredible, you know, star spanning civilization a lot of

0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:06.279
<v Speaker 1>people out there, and be like, that sounds great. What's

0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:06.879
<v Speaker 1>wrong with that?

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.720
<v Speaker 5>The prospect of large numbers of people living and working

0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:16.680
<v Speaker 5>in space has an enormous number of technological and social

0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:20.239
<v Speaker 5>and political questions tied to it that are very very

0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:24.680
<v Speaker 5>difficult to solve and may not be solvable. And some

0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:28.359
<v Speaker 5>of those problems are sort of irreducibly time consuming. You

0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:33.319
<v Speaker 5>can't solve them without doing like lengthy experiments involving things

0:49:33.360 --> 0:49:36.240
<v Speaker 5>like radiation exposure and low gravity exposure.

0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:37.760
<v Speaker 3>And things like that. And I see Kelly nodding.

0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:40.560
<v Speaker 5>And you know, Kelly may know more about this than

0:49:40.600 --> 0:49:42.640
<v Speaker 5>I do, because you know, this is one of the

0:49:42.640 --> 0:49:45.920
<v Speaker 5>subjects in my book. Kelly and Zach wrote an entire

0:49:45.960 --> 0:49:49.600
<v Speaker 5>book about this, an excellent book that I really like.

0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:51.759
<v Speaker 2>I do always find a way to pull the conversation

0:49:51.840 --> 0:49:54.560
<v Speaker 2>back to space settlement. So sorry for derailing us, but

0:49:54.719 --> 0:49:56.600
<v Speaker 2>you do a great chapter on it in your book.

0:49:56.719 --> 0:49:59.040
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, thank you, and you have nothing to apologize for

0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:00.120
<v Speaker 5>it's in my book.

0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:02.800
<v Speaker 1>But let me maybe highlight a difference between the takes

0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:05.880
<v Speaker 1>you guys have in your books. Kelly and Zach say

0:50:05.960 --> 0:50:09.120
<v Speaker 1>that you know, we're maybe not ready to settle space,

0:50:09.200 --> 0:50:12.240
<v Speaker 1>that we haven't done the necessary legwork, and we shouldn't

0:50:12.280 --> 0:50:15.520
<v Speaker 1>get over excited and jump too fast and send people

0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:17.239
<v Speaker 1>to Mars now, because there's a lot of stuff we

0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:19.759
<v Speaker 1>need to figure out, but that it's possible and if

0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:22.359
<v Speaker 1>we do it right, maybe you could figure this out.

0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:24.600
<v Speaker 1>We just aren't there yet. But I feel like your

0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:27.600
<v Speaker 1>book goes a step further and suggests that you know

0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:30.600
<v Speaker 1>it's dangerous to make these projections. You know, somebody out

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:33.239
<v Speaker 1>there listening might say, all right, Adam, maybe we won't

0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:36.480
<v Speaker 1>get there, you know, to as far as these guys project,

0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:39.319
<v Speaker 1>but however far we get will be great. What do

0:50:39.360 --> 0:50:41.319
<v Speaker 1>you say to that person? Is there a danger in

0:50:41.400 --> 0:50:42.360
<v Speaker 1>this kind of thinking?

0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:43.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

0:50:43.280 --> 0:50:45.600
<v Speaker 5>I mean this This gets back sort of to the

0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:48.680
<v Speaker 5>last question that you asked me as well, because we

0:50:48.920 --> 0:50:52.960
<v Speaker 5>don't know that it's possible to have large numbers of

0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:57.040
<v Speaker 5>humans living off of Earth. Because it's very possible that

0:50:57.040 --> 0:51:00.640
<v Speaker 5>that's not, you know, something that we can do. We

0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:04.480
<v Speaker 5>need to find a way to live safely and healthily

0:51:04.560 --> 0:51:09.360
<v Speaker 5>within the limits imposed by Earth. We can't just assume

0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:12.000
<v Speaker 5>that we're going to be able to leave. The danger

0:51:12.239 --> 0:51:15.759
<v Speaker 5>is that this rhetoric of oh, it's always going to

0:51:15.800 --> 0:51:18.400
<v Speaker 5>be possible to expand out into space and grow forever

0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:22.120
<v Speaker 5>can be used, and in fact it's not hypothetical. It

0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:27.560
<v Speaker 5>is being used to justify this sort of logic of

0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:31.720
<v Speaker 5>rapacious consumption that is not sustainable here on Earth.

0:51:32.280 --> 0:51:34.520
<v Speaker 3>And because there's a very.

0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:38.720
<v Speaker 5>Good chance that we cannot in any meaningful way leave Earth,

0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:41.719
<v Speaker 5>we need to stop doing that and find a way

0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:42.279
<v Speaker 5>to live here.

0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:45.160
<v Speaker 3>That's not to say that we shouldn't explore space. I

0:51:45.160 --> 0:51:47.200
<v Speaker 3>think robots in space are amazing.

0:51:47.640 --> 0:51:51.399
<v Speaker 5>Like the voyager probes make me cry, you know, I'm

0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:54.840
<v Speaker 5>a cosmologist by training. I think getting data from space

0:51:54.960 --> 0:51:57.680
<v Speaker 5>is really important and interesting. I'm not even saying that

0:51:57.680 --> 0:52:01.360
<v Speaker 5>we shouldn't send people into space to you know, the

0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 5>Apollo missions were amazing and really interesting. They were, of course,

0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:08.200
<v Speaker 5>you know, not primarily missions of scientific discovery. It was

0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:10.759
<v Speaker 5>about the Cold War. But still like the fact that

0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:14.279
<v Speaker 5>we did like a crude sample return mission to the

0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:19.600
<v Speaker 5>Moon several times and nobody died is amazing. But the

0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:21.640
<v Speaker 5>visions that we have of the future are used to

0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:24.840
<v Speaker 5>justify all sorts of things right here and now, and

0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:28.879
<v Speaker 5>so we need to be careful about what we think

0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:30.960
<v Speaker 5>the future is going to look like and whether that's

0:52:31.040 --> 0:52:34.799
<v Speaker 5>remotely plausible. And I really think that the things that

0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:38.000
<v Speaker 5>Musk and Bezos and these other tech billionaires are talking

0:52:38.080 --> 0:52:41.680
<v Speaker 5>about are sort of like saying, you know, yeah, well

0:52:41.680 --> 0:52:43.640
<v Speaker 5>it's okay that we're doing what we're doing right now,

0:52:43.680 --> 0:52:46.040
<v Speaker 5>because in the future we're all going to live in

0:52:46.080 --> 0:52:49.440
<v Speaker 5>like Hogwarts and have broomsticks and magic wands and like,

0:52:49.719 --> 0:52:54.200
<v Speaker 5>it's roughly the same level of plausibility.

0:52:54.480 --> 0:52:57.279
<v Speaker 2>And so to try to get us connecting More's law

0:52:57.320 --> 0:52:59.480
<v Speaker 2>back with where we are in the conversation. To me,

0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:02.520
<v Speaker 2>I see the connection being that you've got this thinking

0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:05.480
<v Speaker 2>that we're going to have exponential growth and our ability

0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:07.279
<v Speaker 2>to do everything. So like when I was talking to

0:53:07.320 --> 0:53:09.799
<v Speaker 2>space settlement people, they'd be like, I'd talk about a

0:53:09.800 --> 0:53:12.080
<v Speaker 2>problem and they'd say, well, AI is going to solve

0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:15.600
<v Speaker 2>that everything is expanding. Our ability to do anything related

0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:19.239
<v Speaker 2>to technology keeps expanding exponentially, and so you know, we've

0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:22.160
<v Speaker 2>talked about how we have limits and so you can't

0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:25.560
<v Speaker 2>expect exponential trends to go on forever. Do you connect

0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:29.879
<v Speaker 2>then this kind of Moore's law thinking with techno optimism

0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:33.520
<v Speaker 2>and this these sort of views of the future. Or

0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:35.320
<v Speaker 2>have we just gotten off on a different topic.

0:53:35.760 --> 0:53:37.880
<v Speaker 5>No, No, No, I think these things are connected, right, Like,

0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:39.759
<v Speaker 5>there's a reason why all of these different things are.

0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:42.319
<v Speaker 5>In my book, one of the things that I like

0:53:42.840 --> 0:53:45.480
<v Speaker 5>to remind people about when we're talking about Moore's law

0:53:45.560 --> 0:53:48.560
<v Speaker 5>is that More's law. It's not just that it's an

0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:52.839
<v Speaker 5>empirical observation rather than a law of nature. More's law

0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:57.240
<v Speaker 5>was a decision. More'slaw is a choice that the leaders

0:53:57.280 --> 0:54:01.280
<v Speaker 5>of the semiconductor industry made, and then they continued making

0:54:01.320 --> 0:54:03.919
<v Speaker 5>it for decades, you know, and there was a road

0:54:04.000 --> 0:54:07.200
<v Speaker 5>map and lots and lots of different, you know, plans

0:54:07.400 --> 0:54:10.879
<v Speaker 5>made in order to ensure the continuation of Moore's law

0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:15.360
<v Speaker 5>for as long as possible. There are massive, massive amounts

0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:18.680
<v Speaker 5>of money and corporate resources poured into this, and in fact,

0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:22.440
<v Speaker 5>Moore's law is not even an example of accelerating returns,

0:54:22.239 --> 0:54:24.480
<v Speaker 5>as as Kurzweil would have, but in a sense it's

0:54:24.480 --> 0:54:27.200
<v Speaker 5>an example of diminishing returns because they got, you know,

0:54:27.280 --> 0:54:31.520
<v Speaker 5>the semiconductor industry got less bang for their buck over time.

0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:34.360
<v Speaker 5>They had to spend more and more money, even adjusting

0:54:34.360 --> 0:54:37.759
<v Speaker 5>for inflation, just to get the same doubling of the

0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:42.120
<v Speaker 5>number of processors crammed into the same space. The techno

0:54:42.239 --> 0:54:47.239
<v Speaker 5>utopian sort of ideas that Kurzweil pushes using Moore's law,

0:54:47.440 --> 0:54:50.799
<v Speaker 5>as you know, sort of the justification and this you

0:54:50.840 --> 0:54:53.839
<v Speaker 5>know eternal expansion into space stuff that we've just been

0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:57.760
<v Speaker 5>talking about, they all sort of traffic in the idea

0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:01.799
<v Speaker 5>that the future of technology is not just eternal exponential

0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:06.120
<v Speaker 5>growth and expansion, but that it's inevitably that not that

0:55:06.120 --> 0:55:08.160
<v Speaker 5>that's you know, something that we could do, but that

0:55:08.280 --> 0:55:10.759
<v Speaker 5>it's it's what we have to do. It's what is

0:55:10.840 --> 0:55:14.040
<v Speaker 5>going to happen, and the only alternative, if there is one,

0:55:14.360 --> 0:55:17.720
<v Speaker 5>is the extinction of the species. And you know, again

0:55:17.920 --> 0:55:22.120
<v Speaker 5>Musk is extremely clear about this. Musk has said the

0:55:22.200 --> 0:55:26.000
<v Speaker 5>only choice we have is eternal expansion out into cosmos

0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:29.880
<v Speaker 5>or extinction. And when he's pushed on this, he, you know,

0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:31.800
<v Speaker 5>he brings up the fact that you know, in about

0:55:31.920 --> 0:55:34.400
<v Speaker 5>half a billion or a billion years, it's going to

0:55:34.440 --> 0:55:36.360
<v Speaker 5>get so hot on Earth because of you know, the

0:55:36.400 --> 0:55:41.319
<v Speaker 5>sun getting hotter, that the oceans will boil off. And yeah,

0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:45.560
<v Speaker 5>that's not wrong, but you know, a lot's gonna happen

0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:48.279
<v Speaker 5>between now and then. Not only is it not a

0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:52.400
<v Speaker 5>particularly pressing problem, but it may not even end up

0:55:52.400 --> 0:55:55.319
<v Speaker 5>being our problem at all, because there are many other

0:55:55.480 --> 0:55:59.640
<v Speaker 5>things that could cause humanity to go extinct between now

0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:03.240
<v Speaker 5>and then, like say, civilizational collapse due to global warming,

0:56:03.920 --> 0:56:08.239
<v Speaker 5>for example, a problem that tech oligarchs and other billionaires

0:56:08.280 --> 0:56:10.120
<v Speaker 5>have done a lot of work to try to prevent

0:56:10.239 --> 0:56:13.760
<v Speaker 5>humanity from solving. But instead Musk says that the solution

0:56:13.840 --> 0:56:15.680
<v Speaker 5>is to leave Earth. And this is the sort of

0:56:15.760 --> 0:56:17.760
<v Speaker 5>rhetoric that I was talking about, you know, in terms

0:56:17.760 --> 0:56:20.759
<v Speaker 5>of like, this is what this eternal expansion idea gets you.

0:56:21.239 --> 0:56:23.960
<v Speaker 5>But it's also I think part of the connection with

0:56:24.920 --> 0:56:28.840
<v Speaker 5>the logic of taking Moore's law as this law of

0:56:28.960 --> 0:56:33.040
<v Speaker 5>nature that we can always count on these exponential trends,

0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:36.560
<v Speaker 5>and we can always count on human ingenuity and technical

0:56:36.600 --> 0:56:39.640
<v Speaker 5>knowledge and know how to get us out of any problem.

0:56:39.800 --> 0:56:40.919
<v Speaker 3>If you believe that.

0:56:41.560 --> 0:56:43.880
<v Speaker 5>Account for all of the problems in the world today, Like,

0:56:43.920 --> 0:56:46.880
<v Speaker 5>there's so many problems that we have that are not

0:56:46.960 --> 0:56:50.000
<v Speaker 5>amenable to technological solutions that people have tried to solve

0:56:50.000 --> 0:56:53.680
<v Speaker 5>for a long time, that are fundamentally social in nature,

0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:57.040
<v Speaker 5>or you know, had a technological component but also have

0:56:57.080 --> 0:57:00.840
<v Speaker 5>a social component, like climate change. Right, we have a lot,

0:57:01.120 --> 0:57:03.200
<v Speaker 5>if not all, of the technology that we need to

0:57:03.280 --> 0:57:06.760
<v Speaker 5>address climate change, but we haven't yet as a species,

0:57:06.800 --> 0:57:09.560
<v Speaker 5>and that's primarily a social and political issue, not an

0:57:09.560 --> 0:57:10.640
<v Speaker 5>issue of technology.

0:57:11.040 --> 0:57:14.399
<v Speaker 1>So, to paraphrase your argument, I think you're saying, it's

0:57:14.440 --> 0:57:17.600
<v Speaker 1>not that computers won't get faster and the technology can't

0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:20.280
<v Speaker 1>help us in the future. It's just that we can't

0:57:20.560 --> 0:57:23.160
<v Speaker 1>rely on it always doing so to magically solve all

0:57:23.200 --> 0:57:26.440
<v Speaker 1>of our problems, and doing so distract ourselves from the

0:57:26.480 --> 0:57:28.600
<v Speaker 1>real problems we face in the more immediate future.

0:57:28.800 --> 0:57:32.240
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, I mean, also, more's laws over. I mean,

0:57:32.360 --> 0:57:36.840
<v Speaker 5>come on, we have the transistors down about as small

0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:41.000
<v Speaker 5>as we can get them. You know, you can't make

0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:44.000
<v Speaker 5>a silicon transistor smaller than an atom of silicon.

0:57:44.120 --> 0:57:46.320
<v Speaker 1>But you do see a role for technology in shaping

0:57:46.320 --> 0:57:48.479
<v Speaker 1>our future. I mean, it's not that you don't want

0:57:48.720 --> 0:57:50.080
<v Speaker 1>chet gpt to cure cancer.

0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:52.720
<v Speaker 5>I definitely hear that there's a role for technology in

0:57:52.760 --> 0:57:53.520
<v Speaker 5>shaping our future.

0:57:53.560 --> 0:57:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Technology is a big part of how we shape our future.

0:57:56.360 --> 0:57:58.120
<v Speaker 5>I'm going to just pretend that you didn't say the

0:57:58.160 --> 0:58:01.840
<v Speaker 5>thing about chatch ept curing cancer. Though. God, there's this tweet,

0:58:02.600 --> 0:58:05.720
<v Speaker 5>like one of my favorite tweet and responses, effor is

0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:10.439
<v Speaker 5>where Sam Altman said something like be me, build chatch

0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:13.160
<v Speaker 5>ept to cure cancer or whatever, and then people start

0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:15.240
<v Speaker 5>criticizing you, and then he like goes on and on

0:58:15.360 --> 0:58:17.400
<v Speaker 5>and like has a pity party for himself. And then

0:58:17.440 --> 0:58:22.720
<v Speaker 5>somebody just responded with did you cure cancer or whatever?

0:58:23.000 --> 0:58:26.760
<v Speaker 5>But you know, there has been actually great progress made

0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:29.280
<v Speaker 5>and treating cancer just in the last few years, right,

0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:32.360
<v Speaker 5>you know, like these I don't remember the names of

0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:34.120
<v Speaker 5>the drugs because like I'm not a cancer guy, but

0:58:34.240 --> 0:58:39.080
<v Speaker 5>like these approaches of like getting cancer patient's own immune

0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:41.640
<v Speaker 5>systems to properly recognize and attack the cancers in their

0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:46.160
<v Speaker 5>own bodies has been like incredibly successful and is really

0:58:46.160 --> 0:58:49.720
<v Speaker 5>promising for further developments. It's really amazing, and like there

0:58:49.760 --> 0:58:52.200
<v Speaker 5>have been all sorts of really amazing biomedical advances that

0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:55.000
<v Speaker 5>are currently being destroyed by RFK Junior and Trump. Like

0:58:55.160 --> 0:58:57.480
<v Speaker 5>mRNA vaccines are one of the great success stories of

0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:00.960
<v Speaker 5>you know, biomedical science in the last twenty years. And

0:59:01.000 --> 0:59:04.080
<v Speaker 5>I think that's important, and I think in general, vaccines

0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:07.080
<v Speaker 5>are great. You know, there's all sorts of really wonderful

0:59:07.160 --> 0:59:10.920
<v Speaker 5>technology that we've created that has made the world generally

0:59:11.040 --> 0:59:13.960
<v Speaker 5>a better place, or has at least enabled.

0:59:13.560 --> 0:59:15.080
<v Speaker 3>People to make the world a better place.

0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:15.320
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:59:15.360 --> 0:59:17.840
<v Speaker 5>In general, technology is a tool, and there are questions

0:59:17.880 --> 0:59:20.600
<v Speaker 5>about how you use it, right. You know, nuclear power

0:59:20.640 --> 0:59:22.520
<v Speaker 5>can be used to build nuclear power plants, but it

0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:25.200
<v Speaker 5>can also be used to make bombs. YadA, YadA, YadA.

0:59:25.280 --> 0:59:27.480
<v Speaker 5>I think I just YadA YadA, nuclear apocalypse.

0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:31.040
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, you did, Yeah whatever. I'm a physicist. Of

0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:32.080
<v Speaker 3>course that's what I'm gonna do.

0:59:32.160 --> 0:59:34.520
<v Speaker 5>But the point is, yeah, of course there's a role

0:59:34.600 --> 0:59:36.760
<v Speaker 5>for technology to play in shaping our future.

0:59:36.760 --> 0:59:38.640
<v Speaker 3>It's just not two things.

0:59:39.080 --> 0:59:41.280
<v Speaker 5>Technology is not the only thing that shapes our future,

0:59:41.640 --> 0:59:46.440
<v Speaker 5>and the development and future direction of technology is not inevitable.

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:51.680
<v Speaker 5>Technology is something that humans make, and the future development

0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:55.880
<v Speaker 5>of technology is filled with contingency and human choice. It

0:59:56.000 --> 0:59:58.840
<v Speaker 5>is not like we build every single technology that it

0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:02.439
<v Speaker 5>is physically possible to build. It's not on rails. It's

1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:04.760
<v Speaker 5>not like it's you know, the analogy I make in

1:00:04.800 --> 1:00:07.840
<v Speaker 5>the book, It's not like a tech tree in civilization, right,

1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:10.360
<v Speaker 5>where like the future of technology is just sort of

1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:12.320
<v Speaker 5>revealed to us and we have we just make a

1:00:12.400 --> 1:00:14.680
<v Speaker 5>choice about which branch we're going to pursue first.

1:00:15.160 --> 1:00:17.439
<v Speaker 3>That's not how anything works.

1:00:17.440 --> 1:00:20.160
<v Speaker 1>All right. Well, thanks Adam for coming on, and let's

1:00:20.160 --> 1:00:22.680
<v Speaker 1>hope that chat GBT desk your cancer before any of

1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:23.200
<v Speaker 1>us get it.

1:00:23.400 --> 1:00:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for being on the show, Adam absolutely. Daniel and

1:00:33.000 --> 1:00:36.919
<v Speaker 2>Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love

1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:38.920
<v Speaker 2>to hear from you, We really would.

1:00:39.080 --> 1:00:41.840
<v Speaker 1>We want to know what questions you have about this

1:00:42.040 --> 1:00:43.680
<v Speaker 1>Extraordinary Universe.

1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:46.720
<v Speaker 2>We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:49.720
<v Speaker 2>for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

1:00:49.760 --> 1:00:50.160
<v Speaker 2>back to you.

1:00:50.440 --> 1:00:51.440
<v Speaker 3>We really mean it.

1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:56.400
<v Speaker 1>We answer every message. Email us at questions at danieland Kelly.

1:00:56.280 --> 1:00:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Dot org, or you can find us on social media.

1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:02.240
<v Speaker 2>We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

1:01:02.320 --> 1:01:04.280
<v Speaker 2>all of those platforms. You can find us at d

1:01:04.720 --> 1:01:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and K Universe.

1:01:06.440 --> 1:01:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Don't be shy, write to us