1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Julie Douglas. And uh, Julie, 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: you you still take Marta every now and then, don't you? 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: The train public transportation system here in New Lanta? And 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: uh so, I'm sure you've encountered the various fossil salesman 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: on there. They're selling bogus fossils. I mean, it's it's 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: like every time you turn a corner here, somebody with 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: trying to sell some sort of like diplodocus uh um, vertebrae, iguana, 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: don femur, and you know it's all fake, but you 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: still still people gullible enough to buy, I know, And 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm always like, don't do that. That's just a buffalo 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: wing from Bojangles. Yeah, and the remnants of it. Yeah, yeah, 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: that because if you go by just what these guys 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: are selling, most of the fossil record was very bojanglesh yeah. 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: And it's and it's warm um and we just know 17 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: that that's not how how China source looked. That wasn't 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: their morphology. So no, yeah, you know, and I didn't 19 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: help matters that they threw on like an iguana tail 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: on the buffalo wing and then tried to say, yeah, 21 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: it's it's the missing link. Yeah, it's a shame in 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: the sham. But you know, shim sham. It's a it's 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: a shim sham indeed, but it's a shim sham that 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: goes far beyond made up encounters on on on Martha Um. 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: Fake fossils are have been going on as long as 26 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: we've had real fossils, and it's it's an interesting history 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: because to a certain degree, you have well meaning people 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: who just make mistakes, UM, who get caught up in 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: their passions or or in you know, there the various 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: timeline they have to meet their ambitions, yeah, their ambitions, 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: and then you have people who just want to make 32 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: a quick buck and you've got rogues. Yeah, yeah, I 33 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: mean it is a spotty history. Yeah, there there are 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: some is we're gonna explore in this this episode. There 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: are some real characters in uh in fossil history, UM, 36 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: who have been just completely without scruples, that have been 37 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: UH pompous beyond belief and have been willing to take 38 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: more than a few shortcuts to get their name in 39 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: the history books. Yeah, and not to just throw stones 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: at glasshouses here, because I've have to mention a couple 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: of modern day hoaxes that we have all fallen under 42 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: the spell at one time or another. One is crystal schools, 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: right the Yeah, the pre Columbian Mesoamerican like crystal schools 44 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: not real at all. So if you bought one, you know, 45 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: you should be proud and display it, but just know 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: that it's it's not an artifact from yesteryear. And in 47 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,679 Speaker 1: the shroud of turrent and that one is a little 48 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: bit controversial in well I know, but it's been carbon 49 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: carbon dated back to the thirteenth century, right, and recently 50 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: there was some Italian scientists who was able to uh, 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: the face imprint, was able to do that with another 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: piece of cloth and sort of they look, there's the there, 53 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: there's the explanation for the facial print there. So it happens, 54 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: it continues to happen. I think you might get letters 55 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: on that one. But but we'll be all right. But 56 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: the carbon dating, yes, that is a key tool. But 57 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 1: but then there are other like more We're not gonna 58 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time on these. But then you 59 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: have stuff like the the old Circus mermaid. Yeah, so 60 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: the monkey, the dead monkey to the the back half 61 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: of the fish, and like a cinnamon tail, right, and 62 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: then orangutan jaw. Yeah. I mean it's it's complete, it's 63 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: very creative, but it does it does correct me because 64 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: back in that day, though, how would you know, right 65 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: if it wasn't that circulating I don't know, early nineteenth 66 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: century or something. Um, you don't have the other nut, 67 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, you don't have people that are well traveled. Um, 68 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: you may even not have wide access to books to 69 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: reference materials. So if that were to be displayed, then 70 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: you might think, wow, that creature is really out there. Yeah. 71 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: And as we've discussed before, fossils, the fossil record is incomplete, 72 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: and fossils alone do not tell us what the past 73 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: was like. And in fact, I mean we we cannot 74 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: know with any uh you know, strong degree of certainty 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: of what the past was like, what Brettist dark days 76 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: consisted of. We we make very educated guesses and and 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: and theorize what it was like. And we based those 78 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: theories on the fossils. We based it on on our 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: use of basically large family trees and filling in the blanks. 80 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: A lot of it just we just put a lot 81 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: of logic into it and a lot of deduction. It's 82 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: like solving a crime where you go in and you 83 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: look at a lot of evidence and you put it 84 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: together and try to form a complete picture of what happened. Right, 85 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: you're extrapolating to some degree. Right, So early on there 86 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: were though there were fewer tools there was there were, 87 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: especially if you're trying to build a family tree. Like ideally, 88 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: if you build a family tree, you want to just 89 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: continue building something that's already been created, but to build 90 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: one from stress from scratch, uh, there there's room for 91 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: a lot of air, So we can keep that in mind. 92 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: We talked about this too, and even the Dinosaur Sex podcast, 93 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: because we were trying to figure out whether what sort 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: of um equipment dinosaurs had um to reproduce and you 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: still have to extrapolate their right, we looked at alligators 96 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: and basically figured out that this was probably the best 97 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: logical conclusion in terms of reproduction. You have to look 98 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: at at modern examples of the modern descendants of dinosaurs 99 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: and sort of work backwards and and again, so so 100 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: little actually makes it into fossil into the fossil record 101 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: because it has to be covered in mud, it has 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: to undergo this fossilization process that does not happen to everything. 103 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: And then the more of a creature there there happens 104 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: to be, the more likely that creature is to wind 105 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: up in the fossil record. Whereas a like top tier 106 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: predator um of which there are fewer, very unlikely that 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: it will show up in the fossil record at all. 108 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: So we have our challenges, and that that makes for 109 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: more chiconry, I suppose out there in in the fossil world. 110 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: But in speaking of the incompleteness of the fossil record, 111 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: the other thing is that fossils themselves are You rarely 112 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: find a complete specimen. There are complete fossil specimens, and 113 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 1: they're great, they're very important, but they're not that common. 114 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: So if you see a guy on the train trying 115 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: to sell a complete fossil skeleton, that's a good there's 116 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,479 Speaker 1: a good chance that that's a fake. Uh So, So 117 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: that's sort of a red flag there when people are 118 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: dealing with with fossils. Oh, well, this one's a complete 119 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: fossil uh uh skeleton of this uh, this long departed creature. Well, 120 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: let's take a closer to look, right. Yeah, and it's 121 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: very possible to you that that person went online and 122 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: looked up how to make a fake fossil, which I'm 123 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: not kidding. There's there's an article. It's like a wiki 124 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 1: article or something. So I mean, you know, it's pretty 125 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: it's obvious that this is stuff that's going on either 126 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: for someone's own enjoyment or to pull a hoax or 127 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 1: to make a quick buck. Yeah. Now you know you 128 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: get down with modern tools, you can get down and 129 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: look at at them and like look at the chemical analysis. 130 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: You can whip out a microscope uh uh. And and 131 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: also you can just look for other things like evidence 132 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: of sanding. Um. You can scratch uh scratch the actual 133 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: supposed fossil to see if there's wax or glue and 134 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: its constructor staining and uh. Of fakes. There are basically 135 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: three types of fossil fakes. There are, first, there are 136 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: those that contain no original fossil material um, such as shapes, 137 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: carved and rock. And then there are those that do 138 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: contain original fossil material but are entirely or partially altered 139 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: in order to give the appearance of a more complete specimen. Uh. 140 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: So an example this would be a sculpted, uh carved 141 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: skull from a fragment of limb bone. And then there 142 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: are Frankenstein specimens and these um uh these that are 143 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: true fossils, but they're artificially combined with from multiple individuals. 144 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: So you have a fossil, a little bit of fossil 145 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: from creature A, a little bit from fossil from creature B. 146 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: You want to get your name out there and uh, 147 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, and find your own dinosaurs, so you just 148 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: build your own out of the available parts. Yeah, d 149 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: I y dinosaur fossil. Yeah, which that was again, this 150 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: building your own dinosaur and trying to get named was 151 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: a little more common previously, but not it's not as 152 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: rare as you might think, even in today's world. Yeah. 153 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: And you know, I talked about a little bit um 154 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: that it's it was sort of like the wild West. 155 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: It was very much to the extent that there were 156 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: hostile groups of Native Americans around, hostile tribes that you 157 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 1: might have to contend with. Ye. Well, and that's the 158 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: fact that this was a burgeoning field right back in 159 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: the day, and that there are people who were competing 160 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: to try to get their names out ahead of someone 161 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: else and saying I've discovered this creature or that creature. Yeah, 162 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: and and the it was the field itself. They were 163 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: still learning how to do it. Uh, I mean, archaeology 164 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: and paleontology both were kind of evolving films, evolving fields 165 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: throughout the the wild West period. Well, bronze source is 166 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: a good example of that, right, because Epiporus is that 167 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: the real name that was the first fossil of that 168 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: was discovered. Then Bronosaurus was discovered and thought to be 169 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: a different subspecies, right, um, and so then they realized 170 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: later on that that that these were actually the same thing. Yeah. 171 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: That was uh, due to a man by the name 172 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: of Othaniel Charles Marsh, who I believe we're gonna get 173 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: to in just a little bit here. Yeah. Yeah, actually, yeah, 174 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: let's let's talk about and get into that. Let's talk 175 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 1: about Marsh all right. So you had Oathaniel Charles Marsh 176 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: and then you had his counterpart, Edward Danker Cope. All right, 177 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: these guys were somewhere in some respects both born to 178 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: wealthy US families, a lot of money in the family, 179 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: but they were both fascinated from an early age by 180 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: natural sciences. What time period was again, this was this 181 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: was like you know, like late So you had Cope. Uh. 182 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: Cope was brilliant interpreter of fossils, all right, he was. 183 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: He was a hard worker, um Like during his life 184 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: he ended up publishing like more than four papers and 185 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: monographs on paleontology. Um. And he and he risked life 186 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: and limb for science. I mean he was he was. 187 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: He was out there, you know, risking attack from from 188 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: hostile tribes, uh and uh in life and limb to 189 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: to get these these fossils. But he was also really arrogant. Uh. 190 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: He was really hot tempered, and this would become a 191 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: defining part of who he was. Marsh On the other hand, 192 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: Marsha spent his entire career at Yale University, where he's 193 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: Professor of Paleontology and curator of the Peabody Museum in 194 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: Natural History. Now, he wasn't as uh as bright as Cope. 195 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: Perhaps that's the or at least that's that's what some 196 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: of the historians argue that he he maybe didn't have 197 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: the natural intellectual gift for it, but he but what 198 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: he lacked he made up for in uh is just 199 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: just being a ruthless and masterful organizer. And he hit 200 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: a real knack for the politics of the system too. 201 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: But but again, he was this This guy was not 202 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: just like, oh, I'm going to make some money off 203 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: of fossils. No, he was He was legitimately obsessed and 204 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: interested in just in awe of of of these these 205 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: wondrous relic of the past people we're finding in the 206 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: in the earth. And tell me if I'm wrong on this, 207 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: if I've got it backwards. But is it. Marsh who 208 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: looked at Cops one of Cope's assemblage of fossil parts, 209 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: pointed out that the head was on the opposite side 210 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: of the vertebrae. Yeah. Now, these two and I mean 211 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: this was like and these are fighting words, right, like 212 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: it's almost like dueling words. This was this was the 213 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: incident that really kicked things off because they started off 214 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: they kind of knew each other a little bit. You know, paleontology, 215 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: especially in those days, was kind of a small tent, 216 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: so so these two they knew who they each other were. 217 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: But then Cope went on this expedition to Kansas and 218 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: he lined up the fossils of an elasmosairos and published 219 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: a paper about it. All right, but Cope had placed 220 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: the head on the wrong end, which sounds, you know, laughable, 221 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: but again, this is an earlier age of paleontology piecing 222 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: these things together. But so he placed the head on 223 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: the wrong end um on the tail of the of 224 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,479 Speaker 1: the spine. And when he found out, uh, Cope immediately 225 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: begin you know, he realized he made a mistake, and 226 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: he starts buying back all the papers that published his 227 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: his incorrect illustration, you know, because he was a prideful 228 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: dude and he made this error, and so and again, 229 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: how many how many copies of this could have possibly 230 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: been out there? You know? Yeah, I know, I mean 231 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: it's self publishing, right or even like big publishing houses. 232 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: We're talking maybe like I don't know, fifty or something. Yeah, 233 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: it's not like the Internet where once you pushed publish, 234 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: it's out there somewhere. Yeah. And he's probably like, all 235 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: my family members, give me back those copies right now. Yeah. So, so, yeah, 236 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: he did this. But then marsh like really started pointing 237 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: the figure and finger and he just seemed really to 238 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: delight in this as well, um, you know, saying that 239 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: saying that Cope made made made made this error, and 240 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: that he had and that you know that he had 241 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: always tried to cover up for his own mistakes. And 242 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: so it's yeah, and so what would follow It would 243 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: be two decades of feuding between these two um and 244 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: during this time, and it's it's it's interesting because this 245 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: feud because on one hand, this feud ended up fueling 246 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: a lot of important discoveries in paleontology, well, right, because 247 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: they were both racing to the finish line, right right. 248 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: It became a race who could just who could discover 249 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: the most of fossils, who could discuss who could have 250 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: name that the most specimens and uh and wind up 251 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: as the bigger name in the history books. So so yeah, 252 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: on one hand, it's fueling a lot of a lot 253 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: of discovery. But on the other hand, uh Cope winds 254 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: up rushing and making more careless errors, such as the 255 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: Bronosaurus um uh Apodosaurus incident that we we just mentioned, 256 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: where he basedly in eighteen seventy seven, he um he 257 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: found the the apodosaurus and publishes uh um you know, 258 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: information on that, and then he hastily named and described 259 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: another one the Bronosaurus based on incomplete materials. We'd later 260 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: find out that this was the same species. That's why 261 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: then we revert from again from bronosaurs to a potosaurus 262 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: because when he first discovered he was named apodosars, right, 263 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: And this is all just the best his front of 264 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: me you know which, Yeah, I mean, I do think 265 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: it's the classic front of me example. Yeah, I get 266 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: a front of me is such a weird term. I mean, 267 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: these guys, really there's so much well, yes, but you know, 268 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: vinegar in this relationship. There's a lot of vinegar. It's 269 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: very acidic. But you know, surely, like he said, it's 270 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: a small group. And I'm sure that they were civil 271 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: to each other, but their hatred for each other definitely fueled. 272 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: They were civil for a while, but like at these 273 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: twenty years of feuding and and like I said, cope, 274 00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: he made some mistakes. You get in a hurry and 275 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: make some careless airs. Marsh was more careful in his work, 276 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: but he was all he was more ready to resort 277 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: to result to resort to bribery or bullying um in 278 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: in the pursuit of these specimens. Uh. And also they 279 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: were also weren't they also driving out the price because 280 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: before that they were actually getting the fossils for freight, 281 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: right um mostly, But then when they started competing against 282 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: each other, they were buying them off of people, and 283 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: other people couldn't compete because they couldn't spend that much 284 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: money on getting those fossils. And and they just continue 285 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: to fight in the like first in the in the 286 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: in the scientific papers, but even in the news. It 287 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: carries over the newspapers because every time one of them, 288 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, make some claim or publishes a paper, the 289 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: other ones there to just you know, tear it apart 290 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: and make all sorts of nasty, potentially libelous comments about 291 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: about what they're doing their work, you know, just tearing 292 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: them to ribbons. Also, each scientist had hired a crew 293 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: field crew to help them unearthed and ship back these fossils, 294 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: right and the rival crews were known to spy in 295 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: each other to dynamite their own and each other's secret 296 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: locations to keep their opponents from digging there, and occasionally 297 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: they'd steal other they steal each other's fossils um and 298 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: uh and and and all the time, you know, they're 299 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: they're working in harsh conditions there the Native American tribes 300 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: are are out there and aren't too happy about it, 301 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: I mean with good reason of him. Yeah yeah, I 302 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: mean Marsh particular was known to uh. I read an 303 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: account of where he uh he was really interested by 304 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: the way that one particular tribe would put their dead 305 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: up on these, uh, the stilted platforms, and he was like, 306 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: let's go take a look at those skulls. So they 307 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: just you know, him and his career, just go and 308 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: start digging around in the bones. And I liked it. 309 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: When we were discussing it before earlier, you were talking 310 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: about how like if they had made a movie out 311 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: of it would probably be more in the spirit of 312 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: their will be blood. Yeah, yeah, because because it's that 313 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: level of just like all these guys are so unhappy 314 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: and nasty to each other. It's they just his ruble 315 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: people and so calculating. Yeah. Um. And it reminds me 316 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: too of the Baringer hoax, because it's in the same 317 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: sort of spirit. It's perhaps not as um as involved 318 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: as this. In fact, were you going to talk about 319 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: like the last sort of kicking the teeth? Oh you 320 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: mean with the skull Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was yeah. 321 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: So again twenty years of feuding. By the end of it, 322 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: both of them are financially ruined, um, because they end 323 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: up financing their own expeditions because to get ahead, got 324 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: to get ahead, and like, oh I gotta put my 325 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: own money into it. Fine. Eventually Cope dies, he dies 326 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: in after he's just you know, he's had to like 327 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: sell part of his fossil collection just against me. But 328 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: he has his skull donated to science so that his 329 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: brain can be measured, um, and he's he's a big 330 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: hope here is that his brain will be found larger 331 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: than that of Marsh. But Marsh Marsh didn't actually pony 332 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: after this challenge, which is of course silly anyway, because 333 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: the size of brain doesn't really have anything to do 334 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: with with how smart the individual, right right right, which 335 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: they didn't know them, but um, but the arrogance, the 336 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: sheer arrogance, and it's like that's your defining thing. It's 337 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: like like, clearly these guys were like the hatred that 338 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: they have for each other becomes more important than the science, 339 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: even though they both contributed a lot to science and 340 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: we're both scientifically great men, even if they were both 341 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: kind of jerks. This presentation is brought to you by 342 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: Intel sponsors of tomorrow. And that does seem to be 343 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: a theme like the jerk thing, Like if you're a jerk, 344 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: you will suffer in this particular scenario. And that's when 345 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: that's when we'll turn and look at Barringer hoax or 346 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: Barringer hoax. And this is Dr Johan Barthelomew Adam Berenger 347 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 1: or Barner. I'm just gonna say five different ways. Um. 348 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: He was professor and the dean of medicine University of 349 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Horsebrook in Germany in the seventeen hundreds, and he collected 350 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: fossils and UM. He wasn't an expert, but he was 351 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: certainly very interested in the in the burgeoning field. UM. 352 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: But one day he was completely thunderstruck when students of 353 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: his delivered hundreds of carvings, and over time, I think 354 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: it was numbered like in the two thousands. UM. And 355 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: these carvings, they they figured they had all sorts of animals. Um. 356 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: There was one that had frogs mating, which should have 357 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: raised the red flag. Um. Birds flying. Some of the 358 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: rocks had birds flying birds. Would a flying bird become fossil? 359 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: As you know? Yeah, I know, I mean in the 360 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 1: act of flag. Yeah, um. And then some of the 361 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: rocks had Syrian, Hebrew, and Babylonian inscriptions, and Baringer came 362 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: to believe that these stones were created by God as 363 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: a test of human faith, and he really struggled. Or 364 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: possibly just for God's pleasure, that was another one. That's right, 365 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: God was either trying to teach us, or maybe he 366 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: was just doing it for fun. He's got he can 367 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: do what he wants, he can write words all over. 368 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: He didn't come to this conclusion right away, and he 369 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: actually started with the more logical conclusions, like perhaps this 370 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: could have been like an ancient society that um carved 371 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: these things. And then he started to think that they 372 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: were actual, you know, uh, possible fossil records. And then 373 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, as they became more and more elaborate, especially 374 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: with the Hebrew running song, that's when he began to 375 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: link it with the existence of of um, some sort 376 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: of like godlike material um that was brought down right 377 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: when when when really it was just he was kind 378 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: of a pompous dude, and some of his his co 379 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: workers decided to mess with him. Yeah, two of his colleagues. 380 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: They spent all of this time. Oh this was another 381 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: reason why he thought that it couldn't have been anything 382 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: but but God, because he thought, how who would go 383 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: to the trouble of carving and polishing two thousand stones? Well, 384 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: two colleagues that hit your guts, that's um. They actually 385 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: planned them for for Bearinger students to find and then 386 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: delivered to Bearinger. Um because they said, because Baringer was 387 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: so arrogant and despised them all. And this was j 388 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: j Ignantes Roderick and yourge von Eckhart. So Eckhart and 389 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: Roderick sounds like a musical cool group, but yes, um. 390 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: So they actually did try to put a quasi stop 391 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: to it because they found out that Benger was about 392 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: to publish a book about these stones, which would have 393 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: made him the laughing stock. Yeah, I mean it was 394 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: so excited about this, right, But so they started to 395 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: we've gone too far. Yeah, we've gone too far. You 396 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: need to kill this. This guy is about to ruin 397 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: his career. Uh. So they started saying, okay, well, we 398 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: don't actually think there's a real fossils and spreading rumors, 399 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: and he thought they were just trying to discredit him 400 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: at that point he's like, He's like, though they were 401 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: jealousy and but this is so funny because this is 402 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: where like the whole confirmation bias cognitive dissonance comes into play, 403 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: where you know, you believe something so itally that you 404 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: can't help but now take all this mounting evidence and 405 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: continue to believe that what might be a lie, you know. Um. 406 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: But so anyway that that he does actually publish this 407 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: book and um, and he does not come to the 408 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: realization that these are fakes until the last stone arrives 409 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: and it actually has his name carved on it, and 410 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: then he finally says, Okay, I've been had, but by 411 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: this time it's too late, and Inshel takes legal action 412 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: against those colleagues and uh, it's not pretty. And then 413 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: they actually kind of looked like jerked for doing it. 414 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: And he actually he continues to have an academic career 415 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: something for like fourteen years afterward. But man, so that's 416 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: a serious commitment to a hoax. They in court, they 417 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: didn't own up to it. They they said that they 418 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: had devised the suit the scheme quote because Barringer was 419 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: so arrogant and despised them. All. Yeah, I mean, there 420 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 1: you go. I mean that it's so funny what what 421 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: makes us do the things that we do as humans 422 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: and the energy that we expand on it. So there 423 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: you go. I mean that those are some really good 424 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: examples of that time period and that sort of ambition, 425 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: the raw ambition that's fueling this UM. But then I 426 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: think we should probably talk a little bit about one 427 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: of the most famous hoaxes, which is the Piltdown Man. 428 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, uh, this is in China. Correct, Actually 429 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: Piltdown was in Britain. Oh wait, I have a confused 430 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: with something. I think. I think you're thinking about the 431 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: pilt Nan chicken. Oh yes, I have the pitt Down 432 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: chicken in mind. Which is which is Chinese? We'll get 433 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: to that, Okay, So Piltdown Man. Nineteen eleven, there's a 434 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: laborer who found a piece of skull that he passed 435 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,719 Speaker 1: on to a man named Charles Dawson, who was an 436 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: amateur archaeologist, and along with a guy named Sir Anthony 437 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: Smith Woodward, who was a more esteemed UM scientist, Dawson 438 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 1: presented the reconstructed skull to the public as the missing 439 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: link because at this time, obviously Darwin's UM all of 440 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: his information has been out there, there's been linked this 441 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: big brew haha to find the missing link right, um, 442 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: the human kind's earliest ancestor. And the discovery actually eclipsed 443 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: the discovery of the Neanderthal Man in Germany, which is 444 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: this is important r Yeah, because the Neanderthal man was 445 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: is a very important fossil that actually is is real, 446 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 1: wasn't made up? Yeah, And to talk about the conditions 447 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: a little bit to it's nineteen eleven. There's a rival 448 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: going on between Germany and Britain. At this point. Britain 449 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: is the only country I believe that France, Span and 450 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: Germany all have um, some fossil record of earlier man 451 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: and uh, Britain doesn't. Nothing. So in terms of national pride, 452 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: I think that they were definitely in a position to 453 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: believe this or want to believe this and put this forward. Um. 454 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: But then more remains show up, including another partial school 455 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: and what actually looked look like a cricket bat. Okay, 456 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: so honestly it's getting someone is getting a little bit 457 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: more brazen and and trying to to mess them up. 458 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: But again they try to say, oh no, this cricket 459 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: that is is probably some bone or femur or something. 460 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: They're they're trying to explain it away. Um. But then 461 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: in scientific tests revealed that the school was actually an 462 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: amalgamation of a human school and orangutinan's jaw with a 463 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: canine tooth. Um. This school had been staying the canone 464 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 1: tooth had been painted and filed. So it becomes a 465 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: mystery of who done it really, because Dawson by this 466 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: time he's long passed. I mean he passed actually nineteen 467 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: fift so whatever secrets he has about it, he's taken 468 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: to the grave with them. Um. And then there's this 469 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: theory that it just gets even weirder. There's this theory 470 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is actually perpetrating this hoax 471 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: against the scientific community. One because he was made fun 472 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: of mercilessly when he was talking about spiritualism, right, the 473 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: scientific community was like, seriously, like you you're believing in 474 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,399 Speaker 1: uh in something that is not happening here. Plasma is 475 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: not hitting you in the face, and the table is 476 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: not actually rising. And so he was pretty mortified by that, 477 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: and he was mad, and he lived think like thirty 478 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: miles from the excavation site, and he would have had 479 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: the financial means to pull off this hoax, so you know, 480 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: the jury is still out. And he had he had 481 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: a little a little history with contemplating how people would 482 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: pull on over on the authority, right, mystery right, all right? 483 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: So um, yeah, it's very possible that he was just 484 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: doing this for his own fun and amusement. But then, 485 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people point to Dawson perhaps 486 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: is doing this, and even Woodward, who was the scientist 487 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: that helped Dawson ford the pilt down Man. So again 488 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: it's not really clear who actually did it, why they 489 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: did it. But again you've got those conditions. You've got 490 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: Britain not having any sort of uh example of early man. 491 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: You've got this rivalry between them. You know, you're gearing 492 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: up toward War one, and you know it's obvious that 493 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: something like this could happen. It's it's ironic that we 494 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: just recorded an EPI so on the Polcebo effect and 495 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: about our willingness to believe in something that it isn't 496 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: so and uh and we're we encounter a similar thing 497 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: with with it with these A fossil remains supposed fossil remains. Yeah, 498 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: I mean you cannot help it. I mean if the 499 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: person is, if they're that excited about it, especially if 500 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: it's a matter of national pride, then they probably are 501 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: going to overlook a lot of those red flags and it. 502 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: Barringer is another good example, right, I mean, even his 503 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: writings in his book about the stones, he would talk 504 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: about the degree that the stones were polished and wonder 505 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: about them and never even think to himself, well, perhaps 506 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, man, did that? You know, uh, you know 507 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: it's not such a great mystery. Yeah. Well, then there's 508 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: a like I mentioned. There's also the pit down chicken, 509 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: which has no connection to the flanky chicken. Well or 510 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: to to the example we just discussed. Yes, yes, pit 511 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: down chicken. This involves a national geographic society. Uh go 512 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: back to all the way back to October. So so 513 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 1: this one's fairly recent. Um. They announced a major discovery. 514 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,919 Speaker 1: They said they found a five million year old fossil 515 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: in northeastern China and that it appeared to be the 516 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: missing link between dinosaurs and birds. Um. For over twenty years, 517 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 1: you know, Palin talks have debated whether birds were descended 518 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: from dinosaur. Did you get to that that whole debate 519 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: of of did birds come from dinosaurs? And then this 520 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: other idea that dinosaurs became birds. Yeah, you know, et cetera. 521 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: So here we go conclusive proof. Um, a bird with 522 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: a tail, yeah, bird with the tail. But then you 523 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: had this, uh, this scientist, Chinese scientists by the name 524 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: of zoo Zing And what did he find? Oh, he 525 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: found the archaeo raptor's tail or. He he was the 526 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: first person to to identify the archaeo raptor right the 527 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: pit down chicken. Yeah. And then but then he found 528 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: found the exact same tail, only attached to a different body. Uh. 529 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: He was like something, it was a miss here. Yes, 530 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: some thing has been put together and it's uh and 531 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: and they're trying to pull one over on us. Someone 532 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: had had taken one of the slabs bearing the tail 533 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: fossil and attached it to a fossil of a bird, 534 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: thereby producing this marvelous hybrid of the dinosaur in the 535 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: bird creature, the frank and bird dinosaur. Yeah. Yeah, well 536 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: and it wasn't. National Geographic then published a mission of 537 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: its mistaken two thousand. Right like a year later, they 538 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: owned up to it. They didn't, you know, no, yeah, 539 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: and they saided they said, one of the reasons for 540 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: the dupe was that they were rushing for publication before 541 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: scholar scholarly journals had a chance to peer review it. Yeah, 542 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: so here you end up with the dragging science journalism 543 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: into the mix, which is which which becomes the push, 544 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: like you said, to to to get something out to 545 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: to go ahead and name it, to to to get 546 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: the get the TV show started, the get the news 547 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: releases out there. I mean, seriously, it seems like any 548 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: big paleontal, logical or or or archaeological discovery nowadays comes 549 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: with a TV deal already in place. Well, and it's 550 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: not even just a paleontology. I mean you think about 551 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: the arsenic um, the life forms the arsenic that that 552 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: recently was talked about, you know, other than Carmen based 553 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: life forms, that there's this possibility of arsenic based life forms, 554 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: and of course that information was released and then people say, 555 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: whoa this this, let's look at this a little bit closer. 556 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: This is really overstating this, this one part of this study. Um, 557 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: so it's not just it's everywhere right, everybody wants to 558 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: scoop and how you mean we're information junk piece. We 559 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: can't help it, and then we're part of the information. Um, 560 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: I mean we're I mean, we're basically science writers, science journalists, 561 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: so we're kind of a part of the system. But 562 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: it is what it is. It's true, that's true. We 563 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: try to we try to inform into light within reason. Yeah. 564 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: That being said, you know you had talked about the 565 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: Fiji mermaid. Yes, yeah, yeah, the the the ape and 566 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: the fish Zony gether to look like a mermaid, very 567 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: grotesque and the non sexy mermaid totally non sexy. But 568 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't it funny that we think about that 569 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: and we we scoff at it, And then you've got 570 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: the pit dawn chicken, right, which is really a more 571 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: elaborate form. Yeah, the same thing really, just you know, 572 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: take two things, put it together, and you've got something new. Um. 573 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: Another example that I really like that we won't go 574 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,959 Speaker 1: into a lot of detail about was the Hide the Hydros. 575 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: This was and it was quote unquote found by quote 576 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: unquote doctor Albert cotch Um quote unquote coch Yeah, and 577 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: he um he He's miraculously found this gigantic fossil of 578 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: a reptile hundred and fourteen feet long. You know, it 579 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,719 Speaker 1: looks like the Locknous monster is some sort of big 580 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: sea serpent. But what he actually did is he just 581 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: pieced together the bones of five fossil whales and then 582 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: chose the specimen, you know, throughout the u s in England. Um. 583 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: The hoax was later exposed, but for a brief period 584 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 1: of time he gets to uh to you know, to 585 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: to wallow in the aim of having found this miraculous 586 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: fossil specimen. Yeah, and this is certainly the circus side 587 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: of it, right. And another good example which is fairly recent. 588 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: I believe it's two thousand and three recent Ish lochness Monster, 589 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,959 Speaker 1: which is obviously that is a huge tourist destination because 590 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: of old NeSSI purported to be swimming around in the 591 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: lake Um. But in two thousand three a man found 592 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: the remains of a creature when he tripped and fell 593 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: into the lochness Um. What were the chances that ript 594 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: and fell in the what is that I just tripped on? This, 595 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: of course was thought to be the fossil of NeSSI 596 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: or one of Nessie's ancestors, I don't know. Uh. And 597 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: it was actually Um that people thought was proof that 598 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: the monster had existed or did exist. But it turns 599 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: out that the fossils belonged to apply a Sore, which 600 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: is a dinosaur that measured thirty five ft long and 601 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: had a long serpentine neck. Uh. And what the fossil 602 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: was doing in fresh water lake isn't really known because 603 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: it's obvious that this fall usole had um then exposed 604 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: to the elements of the sea for very long. But 605 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: like somebody who really wanted to believe, when out I 606 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: bought some fossils, wrote out in like a picture in 607 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: a rowboat and just dumped them. Absolutely they did, and 608 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: they just waited for someone to I guess, fall into 609 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: the Lochness and discover them. Um. But you know you 610 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: have to wonder, like you know, it's the Scottish tourist industry. 611 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: Are they like up to Shenanigans there? What's going on? 612 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: Or is this just some well meaning local person um? 613 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,959 Speaker 1: And I wouldn't really be interested if there's anybody from 614 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: Scotland it's listening to this podcast to what degree the 615 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: Lochness Monster. Um, it's felt like people to exist or 616 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: perhaps have existed, because it's very intriguing. I'm intrigued by 617 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: the Lockness Monster. Do I think it exists. Now. What's 618 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: kind of like in our own state of Georgia when 619 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: when those two guys claimed to have found the big 620 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: foot in the in the they didn't claim to find 621 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: a big foot in a dead big foot in the cooler, 622 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: but they had the picture of the dead big foot 623 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: in the cooler, which was by the time the picture 624 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: came out, was clearly like a gorilla costume in apler 625 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: in the styrofoam cooler. But for a brief period of time, 626 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: they're like less than an afternoon. It seemed it seemed 627 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: possible that, oh, my goodness, maybe the age of the 628 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: bigfoot mystery is over and we're entering a new age 629 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: in which we we know what's up. Yeah, we finally 630 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: found the proof. And it was the equal parts um 631 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: exhilarating and and and disappointing, because you didn't want the 632 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: mystery to go away, but you also wanted to find 633 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: out and luckily we didn't have to do either. But 634 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: you know, there's always the Chepicabra, right. If you can't 635 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: have your big Foot, you've got the Chepicabra Mexican goat sucker, Yeah, 636 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: are right, So there are plenty of other zero ific 637 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,760 Speaker 1: characters out there. Yeah, unicorns, yeah, cryptids, Yeah. Crypto zoology, 638 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: that's what I was struggling for. Well, in crypto zoology, 639 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: when you get into a lot of these uh, a 640 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,240 Speaker 1: lot of some of the the mythic creatures, you're actually 641 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: getting into a situation where where people were interpreting fossils 642 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 1: at some point, like in the you know, in the 643 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: ancient past, you had people who are much more inclined 644 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: to say, you know, cut up all the animals around them, uh, 645 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: to eat or the process in the clothing. So they 646 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: find some sort of weird fossil remains these you know, 647 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: it looks like a skeleton of something, and this they're saying, hmmm, 648 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 1: that doesn't look like the insides of the cat that 649 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: I had for breakfast that I cut up, or the 650 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: dog that I cut up and had last night, or 651 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 1: the cow that I just finished cutting on this afternoon. 652 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: So what is that? And then they have to sort 653 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 1: of do this kind of without you know, the aative science, 654 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: their actual paleontology. We have to do some sort of 655 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: primitive building in their mind and imagining what it might 656 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: have looked like and then imagining that it either did 657 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: or does exist yeah, and again there's that thing we 658 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: talked about this in the placebo effect. This this the 659 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: mind having to tell itself a piece of fiction to 660 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: make sense of the world. Right, Um, so we can't 661 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: help it. We have to make up these these cool creatures. Um. 662 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: It actually reminds me too. There's a uh This American 663 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: Life episode and they were talking about uh, beliefs that 664 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,959 Speaker 1: we've held that aren't true or proved not to be true. 665 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: In there, there was one woman they interviewed, and she's 666 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: perfectly smart. You know then when I'm talking about very 667 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: smart woman, educated, so on and so forth, saying um. 668 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: But she was sitting around one day talking to some 669 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: coworkers and people were making a joke I think about unicorns, 670 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 1: and she said very innocently like, yeah, I wonder what 671 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: was that, something like do you think we'll ever be 672 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: able to bring them back? Or yeah, yeah. It was 673 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: some comment that was just kind of like there was 674 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: along the lines of I'd love to see one some day, 675 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: or yeah, don't you think they were really cool? Or 676 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 1: they went extinct or something like that. Through no fault 677 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: of her own, she existed in a in a world 678 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: in her head where the unicorn existed like she nobody 679 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: had ever told her explicitly, Like the other example that 680 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: they brought up in that with somebody who thought that 681 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: the like children like the children were like the deer 682 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: crossing sign. The deer exing sign was that you pronounce that. 683 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: You pronounced the crossing, the exing, you pounced zo. So 684 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: she just grew up always mispronouncing it. So this is 685 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: like a different version of the lifelong misprint pronunciation issue. 686 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: But I always think about that moment she had, how 687 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 1: horrified shose to them because she said, you know, yeah, 688 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: when extinct, and then everybody laughed. And then when they 689 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: saw her face and that she was completely earnest, there 690 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: was like the crickets and the sad looks towards her way, 691 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: and that's when her dreams were dashed. Yeah, they had 692 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: just killed unicorns for one individual. I know, I know. 693 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: So yeah, I don't know. You can see how these uh, 694 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 1: these beliefs, misheld miscon misconceptions kind of bloom in our mind. Yeah, 695 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: you are not immune. So there you have it. We 696 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: have we have a couple of listeners males I want 697 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: to get to here. We have one from Trevor. Trevor 698 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: writes in and says, I listened to the podcast and 699 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: enjoyed it thoroughly, always talking about the dog podcast so 700 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 1: well played. You now have a loyal subscriber. I've always 701 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: pondered my dog's love for me. Some background infol I 702 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: have always had canines and currently have a beagle name 703 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: Reginald Reggie for short. I got redged, then he short 704 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: shorts of the more. I got redged when he was 705 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: a year old from a shelter, which was when I 706 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: truly began to contemplate the man dog relationship. I eventually 707 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 1: derived that he loves me only out of necessity. I 708 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: will explain. When I first got him, he did everything 709 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: in his power to escape to no avail thanks Satan 710 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: okay Um. He then became more comfortable and loyal when 711 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: he was content in his surroundings. Though through this transformation, 712 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: I concluded that I had, in a fact Stockholm to 713 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: my pop with Stockholm syndrome, of course, where um a 714 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: kidnapped individual falls in love with it kidnappers um out 715 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: of necessity for his happiness. He resigned to the fact 716 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: that he was stuck with me, just like a captive human. Eventually, 717 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: his will was broken and became a good dog. I 718 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: wonder if this correlation has been thought up previously. It's 719 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: an interesting notion and can be translated to all domesticated animals. 720 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: Any thoughts. I think it's an excellent point, and it's 721 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: something that actually floated through my head when we are 722 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,360 Speaker 1: doing the research. But you know, you know how it 723 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: is whenever we sit down and do a podcast. You know, 724 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: whatever comes out of our mouth and our brains comes out. 725 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: So I think it's a really great point to bring up. 726 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean that the dog is wholly 727 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,360 Speaker 1: dependent on you. Why wouldn't they all of a sudden 728 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, you're the person who give them my food. 729 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: I will cozy up to you. Yeah. So interesting thoughts there, Trevor. 730 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: I love I love it when people, uh you know, 731 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of answering a question with a question kind 732 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: of thing. But but but I really enjoy when people 733 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: write in uh like, harder questions based on what we've 734 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: talked about and extract late more involved ponderings we do. 735 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 1: We get so many of those notes. It's pretty awesome 736 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: to see. That makes up, you know, tickling our brains 737 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 1: a little bit. We also heard from a listener by 738 00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: the name of Brooke, who is a PhD candidate and 739 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology. Oh this is a good brain take. Yeah. Hi, 740 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: Robert and Julie. After listening to a recent podcast on 741 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: the evolution of our five fingers, I am sorry to 742 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: report a disappointing fact for you. Stylist fingers are an 743 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: unlive play future human appendage exclamation point. It's a creative 744 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: idea that might even be useful to future humans, but 745 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: suffers from a common misunderstanding of evolutionary adaptations. Living creatures 746 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: don't just evolve new features because they are useful, or 747 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: our ancestors would have evolved matches for fingers and nails. 748 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: All new features have to arrive through the random process 749 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: of mutation. And even assuming we've got mutant humans with 750 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: stylish fingers, the stylist fingers would have to increase their 751 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: chances of surviving and having babies in order to spread 752 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 1: through all of humanity. I don't know about you, but 753 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: I don't think i'd want a mate with stylist fingers. 754 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: Add add to all of that evolutionary constraints. As you reported, 755 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 1: we've had five fingers for a long time. Evolutionary speaking, 756 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: and a likely he of human extinction before the mutation 757 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: occurs and stylist fingers seemed very improbable, unless, of course, 758 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: we figure out how to metically engineer ourselves, which we 759 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: could maybe do question marks. So I don't know. I 760 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: was thinking about that nists thinking about the gene plasticity 761 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 1: of dogs, right, the ability for us to to breathe 762 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: them and breathe the traits that we want, But I 763 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: don't know that we would be able to do that 764 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 1: in humans. Yeah, um, that means to be seen as suppose. 765 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: But we we thank Brooke for writing that because she 766 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: does make an important important point that evolution is about 767 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: mutations occurring in those mutations being advantageous for the for 768 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,760 Speaker 1: the continuation of the species. Like if for some reason 769 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: humans evolved a horn on their head like a rhinoceros, 770 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: and I'm and I'm really and this is not gonna happen, 771 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: but this is just an outrageous example to illustrate. Suddenly 772 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: some people off horns, some don't, and the ones with 773 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 1: horns are able to stab the potential mates that don't 774 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: have horns. Therefore, only the horns males gets to get 775 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: to a mate with the females. There's there, yeah somewhere 776 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: run wild with it then, so hey, if you have 777 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: anything to share with us, particularly if you have anything 778 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: to add about the bone wars or archaeology or curious 779 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: incidents from paleontology. I feel like I left one or 780 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: two really interesting stories out, so I may have to 781 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: unclose down myself. But anyway, you can find us on 782 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook as blow the Mind will Blow the 783 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: Mind and both of those to just do a quick 784 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: search for that, And we really do love to hear 785 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: from you, so please drop us a note at Blow 786 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com. For more 787 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff 788 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: works dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click 789 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: on the podcast icon in the upper right corner of 790 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: our homepage. The how Stuff Works iPhone app has a ride. 791 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: Download it today on iTunes