Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are
Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.
Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one.
Speaker 1: I think it's at were purpose driven platform. Like we're
Speaker 1: trying to get to substance? How was that? Are you
Speaker 1: happy with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It
Speaker 1: really is? What's up? I'm Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Kristen.
Speaker 1: Welcome back ed Landia. End of summer is hot and
Speaker 1: it's gonna be hot in here. So our next guest
Speaker 1: this week needs no introduction. She is the woman of
Speaker 1: the industry. She's showing the industry how to think beyond
Speaker 1: the industry and how to rethink how we operate. Really
Speaker 1: excited to hear from the one and only Syddey Gallop.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back and we're back in the studio
Speaker 1: with Cindy Gallop. Cindy is the founder and CEO of
Speaker 1: Make Love Not Porn. We are so excited to have you. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm deeply flattered. So Cindy, you obviously have um a
Speaker 1: business that you have built and Make Love Not Porn.
Speaker 1: But before we get into that you have such a
Speaker 1: storied career and you've talked about down your Twitter, which
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite things to follow on the Internet,
Speaker 1: about what it took for you to crack into advertising.
Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners? Well? Um, I read English
Speaker 1: University at Oxford and film out in love with theater
Speaker 1: and decided that was all I wanted to work in.
Speaker 1: And so for several years I was a theater marketing
Speaker 1: and publicity officer in the UK. But eventually I got
Speaker 1: completely bored with basically working and earning chicken feed, which
Speaker 1: is what happens in the theater. And at the time
Speaker 1: I was the marketing officer at the Everyman Theater Liverpool
Speaker 1: and part of my drop moting the theater was to
Speaker 1: give talks about it. So I gave a talk to
Speaker 1: a group of women and after one of them came
Speaker 1: up to me and said, young lady, you could sell
Speaker 1: a fridge to an Eskimo, and so I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: that is the universe telling me something. It's time to
Speaker 1: sell out the santiafroentt go into advertising, but advertising was
Speaker 1: very difficult to get into. This was the UK back
Speaker 1: in the eighties. Advertising believed or not was the hottest,
Speaker 1: sexiest and most desirable career, and so I um, first
Speaker 1: of all, I tried applying cold to a number of agencies,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, I've been working in marketing
Speaker 1: publicity for a number of years. I can bring all
Speaker 1: of this experience to the table. And I found myself
Speaker 1: trapped in that double bind of they wouldn't hire me
Speaker 1: because I didn't have any experience in advertising, but I
Speaker 1: couldn't get any experience advertising as they hired me. So
Speaker 1: I gave up on that and I decided that I
Speaker 1: would just have to go back and do the entry
Speaker 1: level graduate trainee application thing. You know. Several years late,
Speaker 1: I basically took a job at the first agency that
Speaker 1: offered me one, which was Ted Bates, and had a
Speaker 1: very happy time there. Then searches Wart Bates and I
Speaker 1: interviewed with two agencies, specifically bb H and j w
Speaker 1: T and BBH um basically, we're interviewing me for an
Speaker 1: account manager job on on this big retail account. And
Speaker 1: it was all going frightfully well, and you know, everyone
Speaker 1: wanted me to join and I was and at the
Speaker 1: time bb it was the hottest agency in town. And
Speaker 1: then I was told Nigel Bogel, whose account man in
Speaker 1: BBH really likes to meet all the all the account managers,
Speaker 1: all the acount people we high. So it's just a formality,
Speaker 1: you know, you just need to come in and meet
Speaker 1: Nigel Bogel. So I went in and met Nigel Bogel.
Speaker 1: It was one of those interviews where I got off
Speaker 1: on the wrong foot. The minute I crossed the threshold,
Speaker 1: it went very badly. They did lock off me a job.
Speaker 1: I went ka fine, Um went to j WT instead.
Speaker 1: From Januty, I went to g g T and then
Speaker 1: two years and at dug T I got a call
Speaker 1: from a headhunter saying they're looking for an account director
Speaker 1: at BBH and I went, oh, no, no no, no, you
Speaker 1: know they don't want me. And the under well, you
Speaker 1: know there's a new head account management. Why don't you
Speaker 1: just go and talk to them, you know? I went okay, fine.
Speaker 1: So I went and met with a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: people again and they all liked me. And then I
Speaker 1: got the call saying I just need to come in
Speaker 1: and meet Nigel over. Okay, it's all over, it's all over. Um.
Speaker 1: So I went over, thinking right, well that's it, and
Speaker 1: actually Um, Nigel walked into the room and he was
Speaker 1: carrying the only piece of paper and he said to me,
Speaker 1: look at what I found. And I thought, oh, it's
Speaker 1: my resume for the last time round. And it wasn't.
Speaker 1: It was one of the letters i'd written from the
Speaker 1: theater world all those years ago, applying cold and the
Speaker 1: moment I saw it, I realized by actually been one
Speaker 1: of the agencies UND applied to, and they'd been the
Speaker 1: only one where the CEO, Nigel had written back to
Speaker 1: me and explained very nicely that they didn't hide anybody
Speaker 1: without experience because of a too small at the time.
Speaker 1: But it's been a really nice reply and the interview
Speaker 1: went very differently, and at the end of it Nigel went, well,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody here wants you to join us, and
Speaker 1: I'm being blamed was the only person who stopped you
Speaker 1: joining us the last time around. Will you you know? Um,
Speaker 1: we're gonna offer your job and I hope you take it.
Speaker 1: And so that was my saga of getting into BBH.
Speaker 1: And in fact the entertaining thing was after I joined,
Speaker 1: I had lunch with John Bartle and I said to him,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been trying to get in here for
Speaker 1: a very long time, and but you kept rejecting me.
Speaker 1: You went, oh no, no, Cindy, that wasn't us rejecting you.
Speaker 1: As I recall, you were too good for the job.
Speaker 1: Is the Cindy Gallop that everyone knows and loves today
Speaker 1: and also this powerhouse of voice in the industry that
Speaker 1: same person. Or did you hit a place in your
Speaker 1: career where your voice to yourself started becoming more known
Speaker 1: and more comfortable? No, plow no, no. I mean everything
Speaker 1: about life and career has happened by accident. Nothing has
Speaker 1: been intentional, and there were no moments of revelation. I'm
Speaker 1: afraid it's very disappointing this kind of thing a lot,
Speaker 1: and that's an actually good thing because I actually think
Speaker 1: that's real, that's the real, that's that's the reality, and
Speaker 1: maybe that's maybe that's why it works as well. You're
Speaker 1: coming here today. I was thinking about, um, just some
Speaker 1: of my own my career, realizing that yes, I have
Speaker 1: these moments, but at the end of the day, everything
Speaker 1: has been kind of this nonlinear, right, which is serendipitous thing.
Speaker 1: So at some point you you hit sort of the
Speaker 1: end of your agency track and decided you were going
Speaker 1: to transition into building. Nope, no, no, that that was
Speaker 1: completely accidental as well as a thrusting, ambitious young account
Speaker 1: director does I pinned Nigel build up against the wall
Speaker 1: and I went, where am I going in this agency?
Speaker 1: And Nigel is a very good management tactic of turning
Speaker 1: the question back on me, and so he said, you
Speaker 1: tell us where you want to go and what you
Speaker 1: want to do, Cindy, and will make it happen. And
Speaker 1: he said, don't be bounded by the realms of the possible.
Speaker 1: If you want a job that does not yet exist,
Speaker 1: tell us what it is. So I thought, okay, you know,
Speaker 1: can't say fairer than that, went off, thought about it,
Speaker 1: came back and said, okay, may in mind at the
Speaker 1: time we had one office in London. I said, my
Speaker 1: dream job is running bb H North America. And I said,
Speaker 1: and I'd be prepared to do that in San Francisco.
Speaker 1: And the reason I said that was because we had
Speaker 1: the Levi's business in Europe and they were headquartered in
Speaker 1: sanranci is important for us. And I said, but to
Speaker 1: be my true dream job, I'd be doing it in
Speaker 1: New York. And so Nigel went, okay, he said actually
Speaker 1: we have started talking about the US. UM, you know,
Speaker 1: not sure how they'll go, but your request is locked.
Speaker 1: So I went out to BBH specific as the number two,
Speaker 1: and then I got my dream job. I came out
Speaker 1: here to start up bb H New York. So you know,
Speaker 1: did that for a number of years or around the
Speaker 1: agent the number of years. Um. Then in two thou
Speaker 1: and five turned forty five. Had my very unpersonal midlife
Speaker 1: crisis in the sense that I've always thought of forty
Speaker 1: five as kind of a midlife point. Obviously, by the way,
Speaker 1: the happy assumption one of us to be ninety fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: But I've always gone on your footy fifth birthday. That
Speaker 1: is the moment when you should pause, take stock, reflecting,
Speaker 1: review where have I been? Where am I going? So
Speaker 1: on February one, two thousand five, idly did that, and
Speaker 1: that was the moment in which I went, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've just worked sixteen years for the same advertising agency.
Speaker 1: Absolutely amazing agency. I honestly cannot say enough nice things
Speaker 1: about BBH. I love them to death. But I went woe,
Speaker 1: maybe it's time to do something different. And then the
Speaker 1: problem was I hadn't the faintest idea. What Because I've
Speaker 1: always said to people, I'm not going to work in
Speaker 1: advertising forever. I'm not gonna work at BH forever. But
Speaker 1: advertising is a very good industry to work in to
Speaker 1: find your next thing because you come into contact with
Speaker 1: so many different sectors people, companies, businesses. I guess I'd
Speaker 1: always thought that my next big thing would kind of
Speaker 1: bubble up from the ether one day, and there I was,
Speaker 1: an age of forty five, and it happn't. So lots
Speaker 1: of thought and angst ing ensued, and eventure I went,
Speaker 1: if I want to examine every possible option open to
Speaker 1: me for what is effectively the second half of my life,
Speaker 1: maybe the best thing to do is to put myself
Speaker 1: on the market, very public thing. Go okay, guys, here
Speaker 1: I am what you got, and see what comes. So
Speaker 1: I took a massive leap into the unknown. I resigned
Speaker 1: as chairman of EVA and the summer of two thousand
Speaker 1: five without a job to go to. As I suspected
Speaker 1: and surmised, a ton of approaches were made to me
Speaker 1: n which I would never have thought of myself, you know.
Speaker 1: Um And and so I went, Okay, I still don't
Speaker 1: know what I want to do. I'm going to be
Speaker 1: employment slut. I'm going to talk to everybody. I'm going
Speaker 1: to take every meeting, I'm going to do every phone called,
Speaker 1: no preconceived notions. And so I embarked on this fascinating exploratory,
Speaker 1: which was as good for telling me what I didn't
Speaker 1: want to do. That's what I did want to do.
Speaker 1: Cana stabbed there. That is a huge advice. I tacked
Speaker 1: a lot of friends about the were hemming and hiding
Speaker 1: about the next move, whether it's the next job or
Speaker 1: it's the next career move. And what you just said
Speaker 1: was stop thinking so much, just do, just go in
Speaker 1: do And that's like, yep, no, exactly exactly. And also,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know a couple of important things I
Speaker 1: think too are I mean, I was lucky I had
Speaker 1: some BBH shares which you had to sell when you
Speaker 1: left the company because as a private companies, so I
Speaker 1: knew I had a bit of a financial cushion. That
Speaker 1: meant that I could take the time to explore. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean I recommend trying to accumulate that you know,
Speaker 1: savings wise or side hustle wise, because to be frank um,
Speaker 1: you cannot make your next career decision. When you're working,
Speaker 1: you are just never going to You need to clear
Speaker 1: your head. You need to take the time to work
Speaker 1: at what you really want to do. And also you
Speaker 1: need to say I'm available. And when you put yourself
Speaker 1: out there, you're amazed at what comes to you that
Speaker 1: that would not have come to you if they had
Speaker 1: not known that you were. You were out there openly talking.
Speaker 1: But but I especially to be Frank evangelic size about
Speaker 1: working for yourself, because that is the only way to
Speaker 1: be People make the mistake of thinking that a job
Speaker 1: is the safe option. It's not. In a job, you're
Speaker 1: at the complete mercy of management changes, market downturns, industry dynamics.
Speaker 1: You know, I would say, to people whose hands would
Speaker 1: you rather place your future in, there's the large corporate
Speaker 1: entity who at the day doesn't give a shit about you.
Speaker 1: Was somebody who will always have your best interests at heart.
Speaker 1: I EU, and so I recommend to people that they
Speaker 1: consider starting own business. I especially recommended to women because
Speaker 1: the existing industry is not working for us. We need
Speaker 1: to redesign and reinvent our own um. And in fact,
Speaker 1: the closing keynote I gave it a three Percent conference
Speaker 1: two years ago was here are the ten easy microactions
Speaker 1: you can take to start your own agency now. And
Speaker 1: I made the point that I used the word age
Speaker 1: agency in quotation marks because I don't mean start an
Speaker 1: agency like any of the ones you see around you today.
Speaker 1: I mean start something that gives you agency, that lets
Speaker 1: you decide how you want to work, what you want
Speaker 1: to do, what you want your output to be, and
Speaker 1: then start that. The thing is that I think it's
Speaker 1: not easy, but not to be mistaken that it's not doable. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of radical simplicity. First of all.
Speaker 1: You know, what I say to everybody is just take
Speaker 1: a long, hard look around you and identify what you
Speaker 1: think is missing from our industry or from whatever industry
Speaker 1: you want to start something up in. You know, identify
Speaker 1: what you would love to be there that is not
Speaker 1: what is not there that you could bring to the table,
Speaker 1: what you think the industry can really benefit from, but
Speaker 1: nobody else has spotted that. And then start that. Yes,
Speaker 1: and there is so much opportunity when you do that,
Speaker 1: especially through the female lends. And then you know, there
Speaker 1: are a couple of good things about our understand I
Speaker 1: mean First of all, you don't have to jump ship
Speaker 1: and do it in imediately. You can absolutely begin doing
Speaker 1: it in the form of side hustle. Secondly, you know,
Speaker 1: depending on the nature of your business, the combination of
Speaker 1: service industry, it's you and your brain working from home,
Speaker 1: plus all your friends in your network and their brains
Speaker 1: as and when you can call on them when you
Speaker 1: have a contract. Plus a lot of these days free
Speaker 1: technical tools that enable you to build and structure and
Speaker 1: put out there anything you want I mean, storry and
Speaker 1: business could not be easier, especially given the nature of
Speaker 1: what we do. And and incidentally, this is another reason
Speaker 1: why I say to all women and and actually people
Speaker 1: of color, anybody who is other in our industry, you
Speaker 1: have to go to the three Percent conference. Okay, this
Speaker 1: year's in Chicago November eight to night. I'll be given
Speaker 1: the closing kennote again. But the reason you have to
Speaker 1: go there is because there are your clients. There are
Speaker 1: your contacts, your network, I mean, your future employees, your
Speaker 1: co founding partners. But there are the people who want
Speaker 1: to give you as when you start your own agency company,
Speaker 1: doing something that is not available in the industry currently.
Speaker 1: Following all my years and our industry. I feel very
Speaker 1: strongly the future of business is doing good and making
Speaker 1: money simultaneously, and I believe it's very important in that
Speaker 1: context to design new business models. And so I believe
Speaker 1: the business model of the future is shared values plus
Speaker 1: shared action equals shared profit, financial profits and social profit. UM.
Speaker 1: In other words, when brands and businesses and companies come
Speaker 1: together with their audiences and by the way, that can
Speaker 1: be your consumers, your employees, your analysts, you know, whatever
Speaker 1: audience it is, when you come together around values that
Speaker 1: you will share, which, by the way, is the most
Speaker 1: important requirement for good relationship in life as much as business.
Speaker 1: You will never truly bond with somebody don't share the
Speaker 1: same values. When you come together around shared values, when
Speaker 1: you are then collaboratively and collectively enabled to coact on
Speaker 1: those values, to walk the talk together, you can then
Speaker 1: make things happen in the real world that will benefit consumers,
Speaker 1: benefit society, and benefit the brand. It's business. And so
Speaker 1: I started a company called if We Run the World,
Speaker 1: which is coaction software designed to help brands implement that
Speaker 1: business model. Whether that's actually software, I called UM if
Speaker 1: We Run the World marketing enterprise software because that's that's
Speaker 1: what it's intended to be. You know. Um A lot
Speaker 1: of brands see um the future of advertising marketing as
Speaker 1: co creation with their consumers, and I see it as
Speaker 1: co action. And so it basically enables you to take
Speaker 1: any goal break it down into micro actions. And micro
Speaker 1: action is an incredibly small, simple, easy to do action,
Speaker 1: which is so easy. Why would you do it? I
Speaker 1: want to think for our listeners to like an action,
Speaker 1: define an action in this case, so my philosophy and
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, I live my own philosophers.
Speaker 1: I designed my startups around them, and so my philosophy
Speaker 1: is one of micro actions. So, as I said in
Speaker 1: micro action is incredibly small, simple, easy to do action,
Speaker 1: which is so tiny and easy to do, why wouldn't
Speaker 1: do it? And the reason micro actions are important is
Speaker 1: because I believe that change happens from the bottom up,
Speaker 1: not the top down. Every single one of us, every
Speaker 1: single day undertaking tiny micro actions to change what we
Speaker 1: want to see change cumulatively add up at scale to
Speaker 1: enormous impact. I mean, one micro action can start a
Speaker 1: change reaction that can change the world. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: but if we run the world enables you to break
Speaker 1: any going into micro actions that can be shared out
Speaker 1: amongst different communities, different audiences, within businesses, and within brands,
Speaker 1: so that you can all coact to achieve the goal together.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine like a media plan. You say, this
Speaker 1: is not a media plan. This is a set of
Speaker 1: microactions like that, which is totally the way we've been
Speaker 1: talking ab We haven't coined it as micro actions, which
Speaker 1: is completely subvert The bullshit of goals that we've been
Speaker 1: talking about need to be subverted and changed. Now, you're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. And actually the interesting thing for me was
Speaker 1: that when I was sharing IF Around the World in
Speaker 1: concept form with a with a venture capitalists this is
Speaker 1: years ago. Um, he said to me, Cindy, You've created
Speaker 1: the advertising agents of the future. And I had not
Speaker 1: thought about like that. And actually, um, I mean, first
Speaker 1: of all, I was enormously flattered when twelve months into
Speaker 1: IF We Round the World released in beta, Harvard Business
Speaker 1: School contacted me and said, this model is so innovative
Speaker 1: we want to write it up as a case study
Speaker 1: and teach it. So I had the extraordinary surreal experience
Speaker 1: of going to Harvard sitting in the back of a
Speaker 1: lecture theater. Um, you know watching my top and they'll
Speaker 1: start up being talked to a class of business students.
Speaker 1: And so it exists as as a Harvard Business School
Speaker 1: case study, and so I hear from business students all
Speaker 1: around the world about it. I very much want to
Speaker 1: go back and reactivate it around the world when I can.
Speaker 1: I need to find brand partners and investors. But the
Speaker 1: world still needs what that startup is all about actually
Speaker 1: seems like the sort of strategic media lens UM are
Speaker 1: planning lens that needs to be put on up with
Speaker 1: a block chain. For those people who have they're starting
Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like how do we move through
Speaker 1: the tech element you have sort of that strategic land
Speaker 1: So so talk about make love not porn? How did
Speaker 1: you how did that happen? Again, by complete accident, I
Speaker 1: date younger men um. They tend to men in their twenties,
Speaker 1: and about ten or eleven years ago, I began realizing
Speaker 1: through dating younger men that I was encountering what happens
Speaker 1: when today's total frame of access to pawn online meets
Speaker 1: our society is equally total reluctance to talk openly and
Speaker 1: honestly about sex. When those two dynamics converge, pawn becomes
Speaker 1: sex education by default in not a good way. So
Speaker 1: I decided something about this nine years ago, put up
Speaker 1: a very small, clunky, no money website at Make Love
Speaker 1: Not Porn dot com UM that was just myth versus reality,
Speaker 1: porn world versus real world. Launched that ted um back
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, became the only TED speaker to
Speaker 1: say the words come on my face on the TED
Speaker 1: stage six times, I think probably still by the way, undoubtedly,
Speaker 1: I don't think you've had any followers that Doubtedly that
Speaker 1: the talk went viral and and it basically triggered this
Speaker 1: huge global response to my tiny, clunky side that I've
Speaker 1: never anticipated. And I reast I've uncovered a huge global
Speaker 1: social issue, and so I felt responsibility to do something
Speaker 1: about that. And I saw the opportunity to do exactly
Speaker 1: what I believe in, which is do good and make
Speaker 1: money simultaneously. So I saw the opportunity for a big
Speaker 1: business solution to this huge, untapped global social need. And
Speaker 1: I used the word big advisedly because even then, back
Speaker 1: in two thousand and a concept stage, I knew that
Speaker 1: if I wanted to counter the global impact of porners
Speaker 1: default sex it. I was going to have to come
Speaker 1: up with something that had the potential one day to
Speaker 1: be just as mass, just as mainstream, and just as
Speaker 1: all pervasive in our society as pawn current is. So
Speaker 1: I was thinking big, right, then get go, And so
Speaker 1: that led me to take make Love Not Pawn forwards
Speaker 1: as make Love Not Porn dot tv, which is the
Speaker 1: world's first and only social sex video sharing platform that
Speaker 1: celebrates real world sex as a counterpoint to pawn in
Speaker 1: order to socialize sex, to make it easier to talk
Speaker 1: about for everyone in the world, in order to promote
Speaker 1: good sexual values and good sexual behavior. We call ourselves
Speaker 1: the social sex Revolution. The Reverend part is not the sex,
Speaker 1: it's the social it's dove tails. Like you said, your
Speaker 1: principles and your beliefs have dovetailed into and you're speaking.
Speaker 1: It's like all of these things actually line up. It's
Speaker 1: our agency into being one of the loudest voices in
Speaker 1: the industry for industry change around equality. Let's call it
Speaker 1: at the highest level right for everyone. Um, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know sexual harassment. You have been the one of
Speaker 1: the loudest voices. Was it make Love not Porn? Was
Speaker 1: that you know, your belief system was everything that made
Speaker 1: you this kind of the one who had to or
Speaker 1: one of the you know, big people in the industry
Speaker 1: who had a step up and call it out. No
Speaker 1: again it you know, um nothing so intentional. Speaking up
Speaker 1: about me too was kind of an accident as well.
Speaker 1: I mean it's not in the sense that I had
Speaker 1: deliberately been speaking up about sexual harassment in business for years,
Speaker 1: way before the met movement, essentially because nobody else would,
Speaker 1: you know, and you know I would. I would make it,
Speaker 1: make a point of including it in every single business
Speaker 1: talk I gave, no matter to whom, no matter how corporate,
Speaker 1: the environment, and I would say to the audience, you know,
Speaker 1: this is a huge sexual harassment is a huge business issue.
Speaker 1: I would say. Every single woman in this room knows
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. None of the men do. At
Speaker 1: the last minute, I rewrote my three Percent conference closing
Speaker 1: keynote of last year, and the topic I meant to
Speaker 1: talk about it was called where the money is And
Speaker 1: having spent the previous year telling women and people are
Speaker 1: colored to start their own agencies, my talk was meant
Speaker 1: to be about the areas you can start agencies in
Speaker 1: that will really make you money. And I pushed that
Speaker 1: into the back and I made the front half of
Speaker 1: the talk all about um what I realized with this avalanche,
Speaker 1: and and I said to the audience, I've changed my
Speaker 1: own thinking because up to this point I thought diversity
Speaker 1: was the single biggest business issue facing industry. I realized
Speaker 1: it's not. Sexual harassment is because sexual assment is keeping
Speaker 1: out of leadership the female leaders who would actually welcome
Speaker 1: in gender quality, diversity, and inclusion. And as long as
Speaker 1: sexual harassment keeps women out of power, we will never
Speaker 1: be gender equal, diverse, and inclusive. And so we absolutely
Speaker 1: have to solve the issue above all others before we
Speaker 1: solve anything else. What's your perspective on what needs to happen,
Speaker 1: whether micro actions or kind of bigger organizational changes to
Speaker 1: change this behavior, but also to change it really does
Speaker 1: come down to an organ structure as well, Right, it
Speaker 1: comes down to hard organ structures. What does that look
Speaker 1: like in your mind? No? Absolutely, And so so this
Speaker 1: is why I take issue with Cheryl Sandberg, because Cheryl
Speaker 1: Sandberg wants us to lean in within the existing system,
Speaker 1: and I want us redesign the system. And I'm very
Speaker 1: frank about this on the stage at the se comference
Speaker 1: every year. I've given up trying to make organizational change happened.
Speaker 1: Now industry. My core now to women, to people of color,
Speaker 1: to disabled people, to older people, to LGBTQ people, is
Speaker 1: start your an agency. Um. The white male ecosystem is
Speaker 1: not working for us. We have to start our own ecosystem.
Speaker 1: And the opportunities are enormous when we do. Because you know,
Speaker 1: our our entire industry is fucked. That close loop of
Speaker 1: white guys talking to white guys but other white guys
Speaker 1: is not taking it anywhere. And the downfall of the
Speaker 1: holding companies and the down in tradectory of their share
Speaker 1: price just demonstrates that the opportunity is enormous for our
Speaker 1: new models. I've been saying for years that I want
Speaker 1: to see the female foundered holding company of the future
Speaker 1: because they were very different. Oh. Yes, I've just been
Speaker 1: talking to an The woman in industry who is determined
Speaker 1: to do this has a very interesting model. I've told her,
Speaker 1: I think the idea is brilliant, um And and I
Speaker 1: will give her all the help I can to make
Speaker 1: that happen. UM and her and she was second guessing herself.
Speaker 1: I mean she was giving me ideas that nobody else
Speaker 1: is having, and she was second guessing herself because she's
Speaker 1: been so beaten down by all the men telling her
Speaker 1: she's crazy over the years that you know, this is
Speaker 1: this is a worrying thing. And so I'm trying to
Speaker 1: encourage all the women, people of color, people who are
Speaker 1: considered other an industry, Um, start your own industry, because
Speaker 1: emily possible, and it'll make your ship ton of money.
Speaker 1: Do you believe in like cultural training? So a lot
Speaker 1: of big companies will go into like sexual harassment training,
Speaker 1: UM equality training, like are you um you know um
Speaker 1: uh you know silent biases, things like that? Do you
Speaker 1: believe in training? Or how do you think these types
Speaker 1: of things that you're talking about really get a foothold
Speaker 1: and matriculate through an organization that already exists. So I
Speaker 1: am dying for organizations to hire me as a consultant
Speaker 1: in this context because all that training does absolutely nothing,
Speaker 1: okay for for a couple of reasons. And and by
Speaker 1: the way, what I'm about to say is backed up
Speaker 1: by loads of research. First of all, um sad fact
Speaker 1: of life. The more a company talks about diversity, talks
Speaker 1: about inclusivity talks about what it's doing around gender quality.
Speaker 1: The more you alienate the societal norm white men, they
Speaker 1: get actively angry and alienated and do not wish to
Speaker 1: help with any of that. So so it doesn't help
Speaker 1: you in trying to change the culture. Secondly, fundamental human nature. Um,
Speaker 1: if we feel we are doing something virtuous in one area,
Speaker 1: we feel it gives us an excuse to engage in
Speaker 1: a vice in the other. So the very mundane everyday
Speaker 1: example is you know, um, I'm having a diet coat
Speaker 1: so I can eat the bagg of chips and the
Speaker 1: danger again with the company going blah blah, blood diversity,
Speaker 1: diverse diversity is people go all right, So we've got
Speaker 1: diversity covered off over there, I can just carry on
Speaker 1: recruiting the same bast way I always have. So I
Speaker 1: have plenty of ideas and I'm dying to implement with
Speaker 1: the right brave company, our creative philosophy B H was
Speaker 1: I don't sell, I make people want to buy. I'm
Speaker 1: not selling diversity and making people want to buy it. Um.
Speaker 1: I want us to basically bring to bear all of
Speaker 1: what we're good at human insights, psychological understanding, extremely ingenious
Speaker 1: strategy and highly creative execution to create programs that will
Speaker 1: absolutely drive cultural change without the people in the culture
Speaker 1: even realizing they're changing. Is there work that you can
Speaker 1: point to in the marketplace right now that signals when
Speaker 1: all of these things are working in the way they
Speaker 1: are to be, that you can point to and say,
Speaker 1: this would be an example when you have other at
Speaker 1: the table, this is a manifestation of what can happen. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you know what I think is
Speaker 1: the best possible example in response to that, which is
Speaker 1: Hamilton's mhm. Because basically, you know, when you have at
Speaker 1: the top of an industry a closed loop of white
Speaker 1: guys talking to white guys, but other white guys, the
Speaker 1: creative output you get is Batman versus Superman, which tanked
Speaker 1: the box office. When you invite women and people of
Speaker 1: color into the room where it happens advisedly, then what
Speaker 1: you get is Hamilton's, which is not only exploded every
Speaker 1: creative convention of the Broadway musical created a completely new
Speaker 1: theatrical phenomenon, but is not coincidentally making literally billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: But the really important thing about Hamilton's is that it
Speaker 1: is diverse through and through. You know the team who
Speaker 1: created it, the writer, the composer that you know, everybody
Speaker 1: you know. It's not just what you see on stage.
Speaker 1: Every single thing about it is other, which is why
Speaker 1: it is unlike anything else theatrically, musically that's ever been.
Speaker 1: The world needs more others. Yeah, that's right, Cindy. Before
Speaker 1: we let you go, we have a game we like
Speaker 1: to play. Killed by d I Y, Cindy Gallop, What
Speaker 1: would you kill? But well, I mean I would kill
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. I would buy anything created through the lens
Speaker 1: of someone who was other. And you know, if I
Speaker 1: weren't already working in my own billiondill adventure, I would
Speaker 1: undoubtedly start the female founder holding company's future it Cyndey Gallop.
Speaker 1: If people want to get in touch with you, to
Speaker 1: hire you, to talk advice from you, where can they
Speaker 1: reach you? Um, Cindy at if we run the world
Speaker 1: dot Com? Um, you can follow me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Cyndy Gallop and you can find me on LinkedIn Cindy
Speaker 1: Gallop again and on Facebook. Cindy Gallop. Can you change
Speaker 1: when you go back to if we were in the
Speaker 1: world dot com? Can you change it to when we
Speaker 1: run the world. We will, we will, thank you, Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. It's a pleasure. Big thanks to Cindy Gallop.
Speaker 1: The way she kind of simply put things was really refreshing.
Speaker 1: And I think that it's not just for the individual, right,
Speaker 1: It's not just for female or quote unquote the others.
Speaker 1: It's for brands. It's for um startups who are thinking
Speaker 1: about how they're getting into a space and who they
Speaker 1: want to be and how they're going to sell and
Speaker 1: how they're going to open up a market in a
Speaker 1: position for themselves. I think it always goes back to
Speaker 1: those values and running those values through every single thing
Speaker 1: that you are, that you do, that you sell, that
Speaker 1: you say, that you hire. When she said it, I
Speaker 1: think kind of impeccably. So make sure to follow Syndy Gallop.
Speaker 1: She has one of our favorite Twitter handles in the industry.
Speaker 1: Big thank you to our producer, Dana Matt Turk, Andy Bowers,
Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, all of our friends and family at Panoply.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in two weeks. Full disclosure, our opinions,
Speaker 1: our own