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Speaker 1: In the fall of twenty ten, a Cleveland high school

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Speaker 1: basketball phenom named Octavius Williams had just begun his junior

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Speaker 1: year when his younger sister turned ten. Their father and

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Speaker 1: his father's girlfriend threw a big party at their apartment

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Speaker 1: to celebrate on Halloween, bringing their blended family together. As

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Speaker 1: day turned into night, the children's party turned into an

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Speaker 1: adult party, and as things wound down, a fight began

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Speaker 1: outside between members of either family. Two people drew guns,

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Speaker 1: and one man, Dennis Cole, ended up in the hospital

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Speaker 1: paralyzed from the waist down. Police were told that the

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Speaker 1: shooter was a young black man who had already fled

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Speaker 1: the scene.

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Speaker 2: When they went.

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Speaker 1: Upstairs to speak with the partygoers in the apartment, they

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Speaker 1: found and arrested a young black man, seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: Octavius Williams. The victim eventually stabilized and identified Octavius from

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Speaker 1: a photo array. Despite conflicting accounts of what happened during

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Speaker 1: the shooting, it appears the state had cleared they got

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Speaker 1: there man. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Today's story. Well, I'll just say Shakespeare could

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Speaker 1: have written this one, and it would rank up there

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Speaker 1: with some of the crazy plot twists and some of

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Speaker 1: his best work. And you're going to find out why

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Speaker 1: as we go along in today's episode. And without further ado,

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Speaker 1: I want to introduce our guests, who have two guests today,

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Speaker 1: the man himself who lived through this absolutely bizarre and

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Speaker 1: insane sequence of events, Octavius Williams. Octavius, I'm happier here,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sorry if you're here because of what happened

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Speaker 1: to you that brought you to this point. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here, for sure. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for having me.

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Speaker 1: With Octavius is Joanna Sanchez. And Joanna is the director

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Speaker 1: of the Wrongful Conviction Project at the office of the

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Speaker 1: Ohio Public Defender. So I imagine, Joanna, you have your

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Speaker 1: hands full and I'm glad that you are here to

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Speaker 1: share with us about this incredible story. So welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show. Thanks so much for having us and this story.

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Speaker 1: This is a relatively recent case compared to some of

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Speaker 1: the cases. Listen, we have cases back from the seventies,

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Speaker 1: but this one, this one happened just I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a short time ago. It's also a long time we

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Speaker 1: go twenty eleven. Of course, this is Cuyahoga County and

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Speaker 1: we've heard that name again and again on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of a hotbed of wrongful convictions. And I

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Speaker 1: want to go back Octavius to before this horrible night

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Speaker 1: where what started off as sounds like a joyous occasion

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Speaker 1: turned into this tragedy left some body paralyzed and put

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Speaker 1: your life on paralysis. Really, I mean, it's an awful

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Speaker 1: scenario all the way around. But your life before that

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Speaker 1: was full of promise. Tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the family dynamic and what was your life like growing up?

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Speaker 1: What were you into.

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Speaker 2: On my life, he was said, like a regular life.

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Speaker 3: Like you know, my parents wise, everything was cool, even

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Speaker 3: though they was divorced. If we was living on the

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Speaker 3: West side, my dad was doing the West side. It

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Speaker 3: was just we was always close, you know, so it

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Speaker 3: was never a split time in between that we didn't

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Speaker 3: see each other.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, everything was cool. It was two households.

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Speaker 3: I always used to go to my dad house a

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Speaker 3: lot because we had a different bond than me and

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Speaker 3: my mom. Other than that, they decided to send me

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Speaker 3: to my own school because I guess they seen that

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Speaker 3: I had a different potential than my other siblings.

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Speaker 1: I understand you were like a super talented basketball player.

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah? And still is, But like that

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Speaker 2: was my passion.

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Speaker 3: Anybody in my family tell I was a golden ticket.

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Speaker 2: Let them tell it.

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Speaker 3: Before I was incarcerated, I was attending this school called

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Speaker 3: Margaret Island is on Chester. They gave me a shot

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Speaker 3: to be on their team, and I took it. Didn't

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Speaker 3: though I was at good, you know, but you know,

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Speaker 3: just enough to be scouted, you know when and out

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Speaker 3: of nowhere, it just taken away, you know.

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Speaker 1: So you were you were in eleventh grade when this

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Speaker 1: when this, uh yeah, when it heard, Well, you were

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Speaker 1: coming up in your reputation. I mean, if it's reached

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Speaker 1: all the way up to New York on twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: there must have been some excitement around your potential. So

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what happened that night.

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Speaker 1: How did you end up at this party?

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Speaker 2: Was it?

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Speaker 1: Whose house was it at?

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Speaker 3: My dad was Ardentary and his girlfriend Consula. They threw

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Speaker 3: a party from my little sister. It was her birthday,

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Speaker 3: like literally like about your birthday, but we threw it

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Speaker 3: on Halloween. She was turning seeing. Somehow, some way it

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Speaker 3: ended up an adult party at nighttime. Every brought everybody

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Speaker 3: together like everything was cool, everything was cordial. You know,

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Speaker 3: everybody was having a good time. You know, there was

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Speaker 3: never no problems between the families, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: But some way, somehow, out of nowhere, at the end

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Speaker 3: of the party, as things were settling down, all the

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Speaker 3: altercation and stuff start happening.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this started at a Halloween party in twenty ten.

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Speaker 4: So Octavius's dad, Arden, and Arden's girlfriend Kenzuela were hosting

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Speaker 4: a party at their house. They had about thirty to

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Speaker 4: forty family members there and as the party starts to

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Speaker 4: wind down, going to about midnight, a bit of a

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Speaker 4: conflict erupts and so no one really knows like why

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Speaker 4: the fight started. It's a verbal fight kind of. The

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Speaker 4: two sides of the family are arguing a bit. At

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Speaker 4: that point, Octavius and his dad and some others are

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Speaker 4: upstairs in their apartment and this is happening down in

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Speaker 4: the backyard behind the apartment. So Octavius's dad goes downstairs

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Speaker 4: the backyard. He confronts one of the men, Larry, who's

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Speaker 4: kind of causing some of the problems, and Larry shoots

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Speaker 4: a gun and he starts shooting towards Arden, so Arden

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Speaker 4: ducks down. There's guns firing, and then when the shooting stops,

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Speaker 4: a man named Dennis Cole, who was Consuela's cousin, and

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Speaker 4: her other cousin, Cedric Johnson, are both shot and Dennis

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Speaker 4: been shot in the chest in the back, and the

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Speaker 4: police come and they say, you know who shot you

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Speaker 4: and he can't say at that time more than juvenile blackmail.

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Speaker 4: And you know, there's quite a few people at the

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Speaker 4: party that match that description, but some of the other

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Speaker 4: individuals who had been at the party by the point

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Speaker 4: the police get there, they've already left. And so at

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Speaker 4: that point there's a lot of people out there just

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Speaker 4: yelling names and saying, you know, was it this person

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Speaker 4: was at that person? And so the police at some

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Speaker 4: point hear in the name Tate, and that's Octavius's nickname,

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Speaker 4: and so I think that sets them on the path

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Speaker 4: toward Octavius. The police they go upstairs and Octavius is

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Speaker 4: upstairs in the apartment. He's in the bedroom with a

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Speaker 4: bunch of the kids who are there, and they're like, hey,

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Speaker 4: this guy matches the description in the sense that he's

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Speaker 4: a seventeen year old black kid, and so they test

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Speaker 4: him for gunshot residue. It comes back negative. They look

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Speaker 4: for guns weapons on him, they find nothing. By this point,

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Speaker 4: they've heard that the person actually did the shooting has

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Speaker 4: left the party. But even with all of that, they decide,

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Speaker 4: let's arrest him, and so they arrested Octavius and take

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Speaker 4: him to the police station.

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Speaker 3: They didn't know that I was underage. They took me

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Speaker 3: straight to the adult jail. I know, I was scared shitless.

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Speaker 3: They didn't even ask my age and none of that.

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Speaker 3: They just straight took me to the big house until

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Speaker 3: they realized that when they read my social that I

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Speaker 3: was a juvenile. Then I had to sit there for

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Speaker 3: a little bit before they transferred me back to the

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Speaker 3: juvenile You know, they had you stripped down all this.

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Speaker 3: I mean I felt violidd no lie, I never stood

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Speaker 3: negad in front of a man before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you were still a child, just a junior

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Speaker 1: in high school, thrust into a very adult situation. And

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Speaker 1: despite the negative GSR test no weapons on you, hearing

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Speaker 1: that the shooter had already left the party, they just

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Speaker 1: went ahead and booked you anyway, And meanwhile, the victim,

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Speaker 1: Dennis Cole, was at the hospital. He had stabilized by now,

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Speaker 1: and he had seen his shooter.

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Speaker 4: Now, at the time Dennis Cole was shot, there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of problems that would lead to an unreliable identification. So,

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Speaker 4: first of all, there's a gun involved in this crime,

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Speaker 4: which we know can distract someone from really looking at

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Speaker 4: the perpetrator. We also know it was dark, and perhaps

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Speaker 4: most significantly, Dennis Cole had a blood alcohol of point

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Speaker 4: two seven at the time that this occurred, and so

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Speaker 4: he's more than three times the legal limit. And that's

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Speaker 4: the circumstances that he's observing this crime in. So Dennis

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Speaker 4: Cole was shot in the chest, in the back. You know,

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Speaker 4: he survived. He was in the hospital for several months.

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Speaker 4: He was paralyzed, but he did survive. And so the

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Speaker 4: police get there. He gives this description again. This time

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Speaker 4: he adds a little bit more detail. So he says,

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Speaker 4: you know, blackmail juvenile. It was one of Arden's sons,

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Speaker 4: not the one with the hair. And so Arden had

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Speaker 4: several sons. Octavius has a few brothers, so a few

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Speaker 4: of them are at the party and Dennis's family says,

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Speaker 4: you know, if he says it's the one not with

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Speaker 4: the hair, well, then that's Ricky. That's not Octavius, that's Ricky.

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Speaker 4: And by this point the police are starting to get

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Speaker 4: calls from people saying, Ricky Williams committed this crime. That's

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Speaker 4: Octavius's older brother. But they still move forward with putting

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Speaker 4: Octavius in a photo array and showing it to Dennis Cole.

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Speaker 4: The only person who is at the party who's in

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Speaker 4: this array is Octavius, and he's heard the name Tate

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Speaker 4: at some point in the background, so he identifies him

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Speaker 4: and selects him from the photo array.

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Speaker 1: Right, so they knew that the shooter was somebody at

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Speaker 1: the party. The victim had identified the shooter as quote,

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Speaker 1: one of Arden's sons, not the one with the hair

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Speaker 1: end quote. According to the victim's own family, what that

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Speaker 1: meant was that it was Octavius's older brother, Ricky, who

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Speaker 1: looks a lot like Octavius and who was also at

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Speaker 1: the party. If they had wanted to make a more

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Speaker 1: reasonable photo array, shouldn't they have included at least Ricky's photo,

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Speaker 1: or perhaps pictures of other people who were at the party.

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Speaker 1: I mean, nonetheless, the only person in this photo array

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Speaker 1: that was even at the party was Octavius. Now, the

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Speaker 1: image of Octavius's was the one that Dennis Cole had

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Speaker 1: gotten fixed in his mind as the shooter.

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Speaker 4: At some point several months later, they'll give Dennis a

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Speaker 4: photo array that includes Ricky Williams, But at that point

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Speaker 4: he's already picked Octaves and committed to that identification. So

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Speaker 4: you know, he doesn't make the selection at that point either.

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Speaker 1: Well, many people think their minds operate more or less

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Speaker 1: like cameras. In fact, that's not even close to the truth.

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Speaker 1: And our minds played tricks on us in all kinds

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Speaker 1: of ways. But among other things, we will start to

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Speaker 1: tailor our memory to match influences that are shown to

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Speaker 1: us or suggested to us. And so, you know, here's

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Speaker 1: a guy who's been through this horrific experience of being

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Speaker 1: shot twice and is now laying in this hospital bed

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Speaker 1: and his as you said, his blood alcohol level, I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was really drunk. So that is the beginning of

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Speaker 1: his memory sort of fixing itself onto Now.

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Speaker 4: The police had this identification, and they're really not looking

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Speaker 4: at anything else at that point. They're really not considering

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Speaker 4: other leads. At trial, there's multiple people who testified that

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Speaker 4: Ricky was the person who was responsible for this shooting Octavius.

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Speaker 4: And Ricky's little sister, Jessica, was upstairs in the apartment.

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Speaker 4: You know, here's like this fight going on in the backyard,

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Speaker 4: so she looks out to see what's going on and

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Speaker 4: she sees Ricky back there with a gun. There's another

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Speaker 4: young boy upstairs, Reginald Ward, he's fourteen years old. He's

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Speaker 4: actually the victim's cousin, and he looks out also and

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Speaker 4: here's the fight, and he sees Dennis Cole go up

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Speaker 4: to Ricky punch him in the face, and then Ricky

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Speaker 4: shoot him. So there are people who are on the

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Speaker 4: scene that night who know that Ricky Williams was responsible

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Speaker 4: for this. And what we learned looking at the trial

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Speaker 4: was that the police actually started to get messages and

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Speaker 4: voice mails saying, hey, Ricky Williams is the one who

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Speaker 4: committed this crime, and they don't go out and talk

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Speaker 4: to him, you know, they I think they said Doctavius's

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Speaker 4: family like, hey, let Ricky know, we want to talk

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Speaker 4: to him, but they didn't actually go find him or

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Speaker 4: bring him in or try to interrogate him or even

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Speaker 4: interview him. They just kind of collected that information but

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Speaker 4: still went forward investigating and prosecuting Octavius.

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Speaker 1: How lazy can you be that you have multiple people

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Speaker 1: coming forward, tips coming in and they can't even be

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Speaker 1: bothered to go and speak to him. And at that

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Speaker 1: very moment they should have switched course. Octavius should have

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Speaker 1: been freed, Ricky should have been arrested, and we should

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Speaker 1: never be making this podcast right now. But that's, of

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Speaker 1: course not what happened. Octavius. You were charged with attempted

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Speaker 1: murder and several other related defenses. All of this must

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Speaker 1: have just I mean, how were you able to process

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Speaker 1: this as a seventeen year old kid. You're not even

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Speaker 1: a senior in high school yet you're just a child.

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Speaker 2: I didn't process it until I was estually in prison.

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Speaker 3: I understand that being a jail is hard, but being

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Speaker 3: a jail innocent, though, and you know that you are,

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Speaker 3: is way harder, real hard.

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Speaker 1: There's another sick aspect of this that I have to

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Speaker 1: focus on, which is the fact that Octavius was tried

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Speaker 1: as an adult because he turned eighteen before the trial began. Now,

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Speaker 1: how does that make any freakingdifference. Right, he was seventeen

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Speaker 1: when it happened, So in theory they could this crime

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Speaker 1: could have happened when he was thirteen. They could have

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Speaker 1: held him five years until trial, and we've seen that

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Speaker 1: before too, but it's nuts. You can't both be a

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Speaker 1: child and an adult at the same time. But they

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Speaker 1: managed to try him as an adult anyway. Now, at trial,

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Speaker 1: the victim testified that you were the shooter, Octavius, but

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Speaker 1: multiple other witnesses testified under oath that you were upstairs

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Speaker 1: in the apartment when the fight and the shooting occurred,

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Speaker 1: and the shooting obviously was downstairs, and witnesses who watched

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Speaker 1: the fight from the window in the apartment testified that

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Speaker 1: Key shot the victim, not you.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that it was him that shot anybody.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that. It was for sure hard to

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Speaker 3: process when when I realized that what people were saying

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Speaker 3: that who it was.

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Speaker 1: So the trial lasted five days, and the jury had

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Speaker 1: a choice between the perspective of all these other witnesses

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Speaker 1: who were directly contradicting the victim himself, who had by

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Speaker 1: now convinced himself that you were the person that had

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Speaker 1: shot her, and off they went to deliberate.

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Speaker 2: I just sat there.

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Speaker 3: And the reason that I was cool and I was

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Speaker 3: calm is because I had I knew that I had

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Speaker 3: to keep my composure no matter what the verdict was.

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Speaker 2: But I was angry.

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Speaker 3: I'm just very good at keeping it to myself. I'm

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Speaker 3: very good at hotting it. But when they came up

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Speaker 3: with that verdict, though, I felt like my heart stopped

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Speaker 3: just the beat or two. But you know, I got

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Speaker 3: I got my air back. Never thought that I would

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Speaker 3: be the one to be incarcerated. As a fresh eighteen

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Speaker 3: in there, you know, had to take the scenery in

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Speaker 3: and had to get used to me being around a

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Speaker 3: lot of older people, a lot of killers, a lot

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Speaker 3: of rapists, and all this that I'm not used to,

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Speaker 3: you know, So I had to adapt to my surroundings.

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Speaker 3: And it was kind of hard, you know, because of

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Speaker 3: the unexpected fights and stuff like that. You know, you're

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Speaker 3: seeing movies and things like that, It's not how it

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Speaker 3: is in movies.

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Speaker 2: You know, these really pop off lot nowhere.

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Speaker 1: So from what I understand, not long after your trial concluded,

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Speaker 1: your brother came forward and actually confessed to shooting mister Cale.

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Speaker 2: I believe he.

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Speaker 1: Even made a written statement where he said and I quote.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after the party ended, an argument occurred outside the

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Speaker 1: apartment complex between my father, Ardent Terry, and Larry Johnson.

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Speaker 1: They had a few words back and forth, but once

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Speaker 1: the argument reached the back of the apartment, I was

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Speaker 1: right in front of the back door, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, Larry Johnson started shooting towards me in my

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Speaker 1: father's direction, and shortly after, Dennis Cole ran at me

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Speaker 1: and punched me in the eye, and I pulled out

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Speaker 1: my gun and shot him out of fear for me

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Speaker 1: and my family's lives because shots were being fired at us.

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Speaker 1: First end quote. Wow, that's a pretty detailed confession. And

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Speaker 1: this all happened within a month or so of your trial,

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Speaker 1: while you were being processed into Toledo Correctional where you'd

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Speaker 1: spend a long stretch. So when you heard about this confession,

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine, Like, what was your reaction.

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Speaker 2: Was I was, oh man, and I didn't know anything

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Speaker 2: about it. Oh man, I was.

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Speaker 3: I was pissed, like I was really, I was really

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Speaker 3: fucking pissed, like parru because if the people would have

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Speaker 3: done what this were supposed to do then maybe not

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have made it all.

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Speaker 2: It's a Toldo correctial decision. Oh yeah, I was.

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Speaker 3: I was for sure deviast. That was because I was

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Speaker 3: angry as hell that all of this could have been avoided.

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Speaker 1: Did you have an attorney at that time, and if so,

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Speaker 1: imagine you were on the phone with him or her

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Speaker 1: in seconds, going hey, get me out of here.

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Speaker 2: This is right. I tried.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that in reply to my

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Speaker 3: messages or whatnot, but it took weeks for me to

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Speaker 3: get something back from them, you know, when they have

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Speaker 3: all of this in front of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like one of these situations where the

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Speaker 1: doors should just swing open and you should come running

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Speaker 1: out into the sunshine. But of course that's not the

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Speaker 1: way it works. Joanna, how did you get involved? And

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Speaker 1: this must have blown your mind when you heard that

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Speaker 1: there was this detailed confession as well as all this

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Speaker 1: other evidence pointing to actual innocence.

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Speaker 4: Octavius applied to our project, I think around twenty twelve,

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Speaker 4: and so we had a couple of students assigned to

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Speaker 4: it and they started looking into it, and you know

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Speaker 4: right away there's red flo for us. So the first

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Speaker 4: is that the only evidence that implicates him is this

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Speaker 4: eyewitness identification that has just plagued with problems. And then

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Speaker 4: there's no physical evidence, and we've got these witnesses at

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Speaker 4: trial who are saying Ricky Williams did the crime. So

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Speaker 4: we started investigating, and the focus of our investigation is

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Speaker 4: really to confirm some of the things that happened at trial,

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Speaker 4: to go out and talk to Reginald Ward and Chaffon

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Speaker 4: to English and Jessicatarian say, you know, is what you

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Speaker 4: testified to a trial true? And then we wanted to

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Speaker 4: consult with an eyewitness identification expert and make sure that

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Speaker 4: what we thought we were seeing about the identification that

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Speaker 4: we were correct, and that there were all these problems.

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Speaker 1: Right, These are all the issues that could have and

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Speaker 1: should have already been known at the time of trial.

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Speaker 1: But then there's this confession from Ricky Williams.

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Speaker 4: We actually went and talked to Ricky. We sent out

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Speaker 4: an investigator before we had ever seen the affidavit that

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Speaker 4: he had already signed. And so our investigator goes to

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Speaker 4: talk to Ricky and Ricky immediately starts talking about that

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Speaker 4: night and says, hey, I committed this crime, and so

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Speaker 4: he signs an affidavit right there in front of our investigator,

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Speaker 4: going through everything that happened that night, which matches up

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Speaker 4: exactly with what the witnesses said, which is that there

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Speaker 4: was this fight and Dennis Cole punched Ricky and Ricky

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Speaker 4: shot him. And so once we got that confession, yeah,

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Speaker 4: of course we thought we had it locked up. This

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Speaker 4: is as clear evidence as we could get that Octavius

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Speaker 4: has been telling us the truth this whole time. He

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Speaker 4: didn't commit this crime, and we thought that it was

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Speaker 4: clear he was innocent and that he should be released.

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Speaker 1: But of course the wheels of justice turned quickly when

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Speaker 1: we're processing somebody into the system, but when we're trying

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Speaker 1: to right those wrongs, they turn at his nails pace.

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Speaker 1: And this is a dramatic example of it, because even

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Speaker 1: in a case like this, where it couldn't be more

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Speaker 1: obvious and had I'm going to say, if the police

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Speaker 1: had done there jobs in the first place, if they

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Speaker 1: had just gone and interviewed Ricky, they probably would have

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Speaker 1: seen a bruise if he was punched in the eye. Granted,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't have gotten maybe the gunshot residue, because if

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Speaker 1: they couldn't have found him that night, it would have

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Speaker 1: been washed away. But this would have been a very

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Speaker 1: simple case to solve, had people been interested in really

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Speaker 1: solving it, as opposed to just putting a black body

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Speaker 1: behind bars. So it was submitted for review by the

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Speaker 1: Conviction Integrity Unit of the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office, and they,

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Speaker 1: as I understand it, conducted an extensive investigation.

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Speaker 4: So around the time that we had collected all of

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Speaker 4: the evidence in this case, Michael Mallley had come into office,

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Speaker 4: and part of his campaign had been to take this

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Speaker 4: conviction Teger unit and really put some resources behind it

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Speaker 4: and make it a legitimate unit. So that's why we

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Speaker 4: submitted Octavius's case. In our mind, it was like, this

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Speaker 4: is clear as day. Let's show them the evidence and

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Speaker 4: try to work together. And as you said, for two

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Speaker 4: two and a half years they investigated this case. They

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Speaker 4: talked all sorts of witnesses, they tested evidence, We let

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Speaker 4: them look at the defense files, they talked to Octavius,

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Speaker 4: and in fact, a prosecutor and I actually went out

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Speaker 4: and interviewed Ricky Williams together, and Ricky confessed on tape

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Speaker 4: to a prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: And after wrapping up what they say we're several years

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Speaker 1: of investigative work on the story behind Octavius's conviction, the

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Speaker 1: CiU's internal Review Board cast a majority vote in favor

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Speaker 1: of what the criminal justice system calls and our audience

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Speaker 1: is very familiar with those words exoneration and actual innocence.

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Speaker 1: The CiU's independent review panel concurred with it. Get this

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Speaker 1: a unanimous vote. They said that Octavius Williams was innocent

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Speaker 1: of this crime.

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Speaker 4: There are two panels, one internal, one made of community members,

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Speaker 4: as you said, voted in favor of exoneration. And so

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Speaker 4: once we heard that news, were of course elated. We

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Speaker 4: think this is it. We think Octavius is coming home.

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Speaker 4: He'll be exonerated. And then we learned that the elected prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: Michael O'Malley, wouldn't agree to exoneration. So rather than letting

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Speaker 4: Octavius out and agreeing to move the court to dismiss

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Speaker 4: the charges, he agreed to let him out, but not

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Speaker 4: to clear the case. And so in Ohio that's called

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Speaker 4: judicial release. So in December of twenty nineteen, Octavis gets

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Speaker 4: to go home after serving about ten eleven years in prison.

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Speaker 4: But still has this attempted murder charge hanging over his head.

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Speaker 1: It's nuts the fact that he went against the unanimous

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Speaker 1: recommendation of his own unit that he had so highly

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Speaker 1: touted during his campaign. I can't even begin to speculate

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Speaker 1: what his motives are. There's a quote where he said,

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Speaker 1: what is justice in this case? I think, in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, we did the best we could. I think

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Speaker 1: we did what was right end quote. What in the

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Speaker 1: world is he talking about and what would he possibly

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Speaker 1: have been motivated by to still want to deny justice

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Speaker 1: and what is probably one of the easiest exoneration cases

434
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 1: he's ever going to see. Nonetheless, on December twenty nineteen, Octavius,

435
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: you were free to go, but you weren't declared innocent.

436
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: So this must have been as joyous as it must

437
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: have been to finally walk out into the free air.

438
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: Must have been bittersweet.

439
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: No, yeah, it was for sure that it was to

440
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: know that I was at home.

441
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: It was more sweet and bitter though, you know, because

442
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 3: I was actually outside of that place again, you know

443
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. And then, as I said it realized

444
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 3: I still have the same thing hand on my head.

445
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 3: So now that messages with my future job wise, can't

446
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 3: get a good job with the top one Feenidly, you

447
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 3: have to really put your neck out there.

448
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: I hope that it don't get cut off in order

449
00:23:58,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: for you to make his meat.

450
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: The fact that they made you wear an ankle monitor

451
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: and I have a thirty day curfew and two years

452
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: on probation is really rubbing salt in the wound. And

453
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: I think it's insulting not just to you, but to

454
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 1: the public and to the members of the board who

455
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, who carefully considered this case, to the people

456
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: who worked two and a half years to investigate this case.

457
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,359
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's an insult to all of those people

458
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: and to everyone who cares about justice that they would

459
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: double down, so to speak, on this wrongful conviction.

460
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 4: And one other thing that's happened recently, this just occurred

461
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: in November of last year, is that all of the

462
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 4: community members of the Conviction Integrity Unit resigned. And they

463
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: resigned because for the past couple of years they hadn't

464
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 4: been given any cases, and because they had met with

465
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 4: the prosecutor and talked about what they wanted their role

466
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 4: to be, and they believed in the mission of the

467
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 4: conviction Jagor Unit and wanted to be able to use

468
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 4: that unit to achieve justice for people and didn't feel

469
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 4: that they were being given the opportunity to do that,

470
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 4: and so they resigned. And there's no longer any community

471
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 4: members of the unit at this point.

472
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: Wow, that's a powerful statement.

473
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: I can send you their resignation letter which has all

474
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 4: the reasons why they resigned.

475
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone be on the lookout for that on our Instagram.

476
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: I mean, how in the world could the community members

477
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: of the Cuyahoga County CiU not be given any cases

478
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: at all to review for years, just not even given

479
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: them at all to even review. From what we know

480
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: about that town, there should be somewhere between a steady

481
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: flow and an avalanche of cases because it's about as

482
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 1: corrupt as it gets. So we for a full exoneration

483
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 1: in Octavius's case, and maybe this episode will serve to

484
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: shine some light on the Cuyahoga CiU and the wishes

485
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: of those community members. We'd hate to think that the

486
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,400
Speaker 1: CiU over there is just a bunch of window dressing,

487
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: something to be talked about around election time. Let's go

488
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: ahead and hold Michael Mallley accountable. And speaking of accountability,

489
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: I'm guessing that the decision to leave this conviction hanging

490
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: over Octavius's head means that they never went after Ricky.

491
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: Is that accurate? That's right?

492
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 4: So Ricky has never been charged with this offense. He's

493
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 4: incarcerated for another offense, a shooting that occurred about a

494
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 4: year after the events that gave rise to this case.

495
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: But this is a.

496
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 4: Person who's confessed over and over that he shot an

497
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 4: individual on October thirty first, twenty ten, and he's never

498
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 4: been charged with that crime.

499
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to imagine what the hell anybody's thinking.

500
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 4: I mean, if they were prosecuting Ricky, they certainly would

501
00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 4: use these confessions as proof to get their conviction. I mean,

502
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 4: it's the most compelling evidence that he committed this crime.

503
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 4: But when we're talking about using it to exonerate Octavius,

504
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 4: it's not good enough.

505
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: Of course, it's an infamous double standard that we see

506
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: over and over again all through our criminal legal system.

507
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: So where are we at in that fight? He's free,

508
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that you guys are just going

509
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: to give up on his full exoneration.

510
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 4: After Octavius was released, we still went ahead and filed

511
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 4: emotion seeking a new trial, and the basis of that

512
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 4: was the fact that Ricky has confessed all these times

513
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 4: and the report of an eyewitness identification expert really talking

514
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 4: about the problems with Dennis Cole's identification. So we filed

515
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 4: that the beginning of twenty twenty. Then the pandemic hit,

516
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 4: so things really slowed down in the courts for quite

517
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 4: a long time, and eventually last May we had a

518
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 4: hearing on the motion, and so right now we're waiting

519
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 4: on a decision on that. It's been pending for about

520
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 4: seven months. But if that's granted, the impact of that

521
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: will be that Octavis's conviction will be vacated. And at

522
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 4: that point, if we do achieve that, we hope that

523
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 4: Michael Malley will dismiss the charges and that he'll be exonerated.

524
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: Well, let's hope that we don't see a judge willing

525
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: to ignore this clear case of innocence, as mister O'Malley

526
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: seemed so comfortable in doing before him. Now, in the meantime,

527
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: with this conviction still hanging over your head, I know

528
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: it's been tough looking for work. You don't have a

529
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: GoFundMe or anything like that. But I'm sure there are

530
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: members of our audience whould like to help in your

531
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: job search. I mean, I hope. So if there's somebody

532
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: in the area that's got something, what kind of work

533
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: are you looking for.

534
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 3: I've been looking for demolition, I've been looking for factory jobs.

535
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: You know. I just got my toe motor license, you know,

536
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: so that's basically what I'm looking for.

537
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: You still live in the Cleveland area, Yeah, all right,

538
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: So construction and factory type work in the Cleveland area

539
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: will have ways that our audience can reach out to

540
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: you just by simply going to the link in our bio.

541
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: So if you're somebody who's got an idea, don't stop

542
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: listening right now, put it on pause, and go write

543
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 1: to the link in the bio and reach out. And

544
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: also if anyone with a law degree or some clout

545
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: in the Cleveland area who wants to offer their help

546
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: and bringing about Octavius's full exoneration, please do reach out

547
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: as well. And with that we come to my favorite

548
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: part of the show.

549
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: Of course.

550
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: It's called closing arguments, and it works like this. I'm

551
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: going to turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on.

552
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: Of course, kick back in my chair and close my

553
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: eyes and just listen to any other thoughts you want

554
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: to share with me and our amazing audience. Joanna, let's

555
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: start with you, and then of course we'll have Octavius

556
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: close out the show.

557
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 4: Thank you for having us today and for sharing this story.

558
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 4: I think Octavius's case is a really sad example of

559
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 4: how hard it can be for the wrongfully convicted to

560
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 4: obtain relief and to get justice. As we've talked about today,

561
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 4: his case is really straightforward. We know who did it,

562
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: We've got multiple confessions from Rick, we've got the conviction

563
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 4: Integrity Unit saying he should be exonerated, and still here

564
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 4: he sits with this hanging over his head. It's sad,

565
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 4: it's discouraging. It's the role of a prosecutor to seek justice,

566
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 4: not to maintain convictions, and that's not what happened here.

567
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: But we're thankful for the opportunity to shine a light

568
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 4: on Octavius's case, and we're still fighting. We filed emotion

569
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: for new trial after he got out, and that's still pending.

570
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: We're waiting for a decision on that, so that hopefully

571
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 4: in the coming months and years. Octavius can move forward

572
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 4: with his life and nothing will ever make him home,

573
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: nothing will ever give him those ten years back or

574
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 4: change what happened to him. But while he's home, he

575
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 4: hasn't gotten the true justice he deserves, and our hope

576
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 4: is that one day we can't accomplish.

577
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: That for him.

578
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, how can you say that you will free

579
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: someone if you still have something hanging over someone's head?

580
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: How was that necessarily free? It's not free to meet

581
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 2: as slavery.

582
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 3: You took me out of one hell hole to make

583
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 3: me feel that I'm free, but at the same time,

584
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm not a lot.

585
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: Of it still hurts to this day.

586
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: Sometimes I don't speak about it, you know what I'm saying,

587
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: because I'm the type of person. You know, how a

588
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: man is to keep it to theirselves, to try to

589
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 3: deal with it theyself.

590
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: That's just me.

591
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 3: Sometimes I have hard times. Sometimes I don't mental state wise.

592
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: You know, some people, I might look normal all this

593
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: other on the outside, but you know, it's a lot

594
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 3: going on in my mind because.

595
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: I can't get out of there.

596
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: Each and everywhere I turn, I could hear and see

597
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: something that will remind me of it. The other day,

598
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: I went to the mall with my girl and we

599
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: went there and I started getting anxious because it was

600
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 3: a lot of people in there, and my hands started sweating.

601
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: I started.

602
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: I didn't know that they still had that type of

603
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: effect on me. This was years later. It's not easy

604
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 3: for the ones that have been there in custrated for

605
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: a long time to just adapt to what's going on.

606
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: I'm still adapting. It's hard, I know that for sure.

607
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: Sometimes you have your moments where you're you're happy, your

608
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: things feel easy and what not just at that, but

609
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: a lot of times it's just you don't know really

610
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: what's going on. You're just in the world, just the

611
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 3: piece on the chessboard, wait for your move.

612
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

613
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wartis.

614
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: With research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

615
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

616
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

617
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

618
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

619
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

620
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is

621
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

622
00:32:53,000 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one