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Speaker 1: Jasenda Ardurn. Your official title is the honorable Dame. What

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Speaker 1: do I have?

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Speaker 2: What is your I go to tell you because I

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Speaker 2: prefer people not to use it. Think you want me

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Speaker 2: to say it is problematic for me officially, it would

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Speaker 2: be the right Honorable Dame to cenda it's too much.

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Speaker 1: It's too much, I'll say, I'll just say just send it,

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Speaker 1: thank you.

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Speaker 2: I prefer.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone. I'm Kitty Kuric, And this is next question.

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Speaker 1: Authoritarianism is on the rise, democratic norms are frame and

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Speaker 1: my guest today says, it sometimes feels like the world

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Speaker 1: is one big dumpster fire. But Dane Jersenda ar Dern,

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Speaker 1: the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, offers a different

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Speaker 1: kind of power, one rooted and compassionate and kindness. Now

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Speaker 1: a fellow at Harvard, she's reflecting on her leadership in

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Speaker 1: a new memoir called a Different Kind of Power, as

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Speaker 1: well as the upcoming documentary Prime Minister, which is out

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Speaker 1: on June thirteenth. What is it like to lead through crisis,

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Speaker 1: become a mother in office? And why is stepping away

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Speaker 1: from power sometimes a symbol of strength and not weakness?

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Speaker 1: And in a time of extreme disillusionment, she reminds us

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Speaker 1: that optimism isn't naive. In fact, it's necessary. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled to meet you. I've been such an

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Speaker 1: admirer of yours for many years, so I can't believe

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Speaker 1: I'm finally getting a chance to sit down and talk

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Speaker 1: with you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. It's such a pleasure to be here. So

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Speaker 2: thank you for having me and on this special day.

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Speaker 2: Books finally out in the world after two years.

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Speaker 1: I know, do you feel like you had another baby?

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Speaker 2: Someone at the very beginning described to the process of

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Speaker 2: book writing in that way. It's you know, it's terrible.

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Speaker 2: You go through this journey and you're swearing this out

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Speaker 2: yourself that you will never do it again, and then

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Speaker 2: it arrives and you're so overwhelmed and excited and happy

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Speaker 2: that you forget and you do it again.

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Speaker 1: So are you saying there's another one in you?

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Speaker 2: No? No, I've a number of times swore off it

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Speaker 2: as I was. As I was going through the process,

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Speaker 2: someone once told me never say never, though, But I

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Speaker 2: certainly don't have plans for another other than the children's book,

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Speaker 2: which is out at the end of September.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, So yeah, you do have another.

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Speaker 2: It's a very different experience writing a children's definitely very

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Speaker 2: done both.

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Speaker 1: I should say writing a children's book is a lot

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Speaker 1: more fun.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot more fun. It's simple and joyful, is

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Speaker 2: how I describe it. Whereas this was therapy with a deadline.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure, and I'm so glad you wrote it. I

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Speaker 1: think we all need a different kind of power now

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Speaker 1: more than ever. So what is this different kind of

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Speaker 1: power of which you speak?

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Speaker 2: It's I think, on the face of it, people will think, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: so it's just talking about different types of leadership, And

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Speaker 2: to a certain extent that's true. I mean, one of

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Speaker 2: the things I wanted to share was what I believe

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Speaker 2: to be the strengths of compassionate and empathetic leadership, and

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Speaker 2: to also counter some of the assumptions that we have

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Speaker 2: about those forms of leadership, especially in politics. Thus so

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Speaker 2: often equated with weakness or indecision or lack of resilience,

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Speaker 2: and therefore as though you cannot succeed or thrive in

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Speaker 2: politics if that's the leadership style that you subscribe to.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to push back against that notion, but

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Speaker 2: I also wanted to share the strength that sits behind

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Speaker 2: so many of those things that we often characterize as.

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Speaker 1: Weakness or a female.

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Speaker 2: Or female that is often true, but without actually you know,

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Speaker 2: I've met a number of people who had say have

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Speaker 2: the same experience, is so imposter syndrome or empathy. We

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Speaker 2: see weaknesses with those traits. I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 2: the strength of those the power of some of those traits.

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Speaker 1: And have you met men with those traits?

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Speaker 2: I have. I have worked with them. I have worked

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Speaker 2: with them. I don't think that my colleague will mind

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Speaker 2: me saying this, but I talk a bit about our

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Speaker 2: finance minister who went on to become our deputy Prime Minister.

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Speaker 2: He was someone with extraordinary empathy during COVID. I remember

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Speaker 2: him coming up to my office and just being distraught

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Speaker 2: because he'd read a number of letters that morning that

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Speaker 2: had come in from business owners who were struggling to

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Speaker 2: see how they would survive during COVID, and he was

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Speaker 2: so personally moved by every story, was recounting to me

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Speaker 2: what he'd read on the page, and you know, was

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Speaker 2: working through you know, would ex policy make a difference

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Speaker 2: for that person or did we need to tweak why policy?

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Speaker 2: I was someone who was guided so much by compassion,

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Speaker 2: So yes, I do see it in others, but there's

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Speaker 2: not always the incentive in our system to spotlight that.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me and I'm sure to many many

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Speaker 1: people in this country and in fact globally, just send it.

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Speaker 1: And I know you tell people to call you to

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Speaker 1: send us, so I'm going to do that. But this

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Speaker 1: kind of power seems is I would say to send it,

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Speaker 1: not as send it and the world does feel like

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Speaker 1: a dumpster fire. Yeah, strongman Rain here and abroad. Did

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Speaker 1: you feel there was a real urgency to write this

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Speaker 1: book now, given what we're witnessing on a worldwide and

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Speaker 1: certainly in this country.

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Speaker 2: I started writing after I left office, and she was

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Speaker 2: a bit of a journey because I left the New

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Speaker 2: Zealand Parliament in April twenty twenty three, and after I'd

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Speaker 2: announced that I was standing down. You know, I got

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Speaker 2: the question about a book, and I was quite vehement

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Speaker 2: that I wouldn't do it, you know, in part because

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Speaker 2: I think rightly or wrongly, political memoir is solved and

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Speaker 2: framed as being your opportunity to put your view on

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Speaker 2: what happened in your own words, and whether you intend

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Speaker 2: for it to be or not I think that's naturally

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Speaker 2: framed has been PEPs defensive or you know, trying to

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Speaker 2: correct your critics. I didn't really feel like I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do that or needed to do that. Feel it,

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Speaker 2: history's just going to tell your story, no matter what

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Speaker 2: or how you influence it. And then someone started, you know,

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Speaker 2: a friend really asked whether or not that had to

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Speaker 2: be the kind of memoir that I wrote. And I

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Speaker 2: really thought about that, you know, this idea of instead

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Speaker 2: using it as an opportunity to humanize leadership and speak

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Speaker 2: to not just prospective politicians but people who might self

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Speaker 2: exclude because they have doubts about their own leadership style.

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Speaker 2: And I thought that's a book that I would feel

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Speaker 2: motivated to write. And I felt that two years ago.

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Speaker 2: You know, that was at a time when even then,

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Speaker 2: you know, when things have changed a lot since then,

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Speaker 2: even then, you didn't see much of a spotlight on

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Speaker 2: alternative forms of leadership. But I still felt that was

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Speaker 2: what voters were looking for. I felt that's what people

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Speaker 2: were looking for, and I still feel that now. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a disconnect between the leadership that we see

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Speaker 2: and what people are seeking, and we've unfortunately, I think,

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Speaker 2: interpreted that just because we have a certain type of

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Speaker 2: leadership and power in different parts of the world, that

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Speaker 2: that's indicative of where everyone is at. And I don't

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Speaker 2: believe that to be true.

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Speaker 1: But what do you think is causing that disconnect? You know?

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Speaker 1: I just let me read this from a recent Washington

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Speaker 1: Post article. A conservative nationalist backed by President Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: was elected to Pauland's presidency over the weekend, capping a

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Speaker 1: string of tightly fought contests that analysts say underscore the

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Speaker 1: growing strength of far raid and populist parties in Europe,

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Speaker 1: fueled in part by the end influence of the mag

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Speaker 1: of movement from across the pond. They're talking about the

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Speaker 1: new president of paul And, a gentleman named Carol Naaki.

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Speaker 1: I guess is how you pronounce his name? But it

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Speaker 1: seems as if these strong men are gaining power all

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Speaker 1: over the world, and we're seeing this trend toward autocracies,

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Speaker 1: and yet you believe that's not what people want. Then

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Speaker 1: I guess the question is why is it happening?

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Speaker 2: Then? So I think if we dig a little bit

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Speaker 2: deeper into this question of if we're seeing there's two

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Speaker 2: things at play. There's the issues itself that people are facing,

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Speaker 2: and then there's the way that politicians are then choosing

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Speaker 2: to respond to that. The issues are real. I think

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Speaker 2: we have deep financial insecurity, We have a sense of

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Speaker 2: disruption to our lives and the aftermath of COVID that's

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Speaker 2: deeply unsettling. Everything we thought you could rely on has

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Speaker 2: been completely disrupted in our worlds, regardless of where you're from.

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Speaker 2: But also that old notion and politics of every generation

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Speaker 2: perhaps been better off than the last. I don't think

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Speaker 2: people believe that to be true anymore, and that is disruptive.

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Speaker 2: Nor in this rapid technological disruption, do I think people

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Speaker 2: think that their livelihoods are secure. So and amongst all of.

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Speaker 1: That fear your immigration, by the way.

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Speaker 2: And so in amongst all of that fear and insecurity,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of power in the way politicians then

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Speaker 2: articulate or try and make sense of that to a voter,

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Speaker 2: or manipulate it, weaponize, is what I would say. You know,

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Speaker 2: you have two choices. When you're a politician and you've

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Speaker 2: got a situation where people are fearful, you can weaponize

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Speaker 2: it and use blame. As we often see and we

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Speaker 2: sing in large parts of the world, blame of migrants,

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Speaker 2: blame of others, those who are causing your financial insecurity,

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Speaker 2: or the alternative is that you actually answer the problem

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Speaker 2: sitting in front of you. Because there are very genuine

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Speaker 2: issues that politicians should be tackling, but they won't be

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Speaker 2: tackled with a SoundBite. They will take work, you know,

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Speaker 2: thoughtful policy. I think collective multilateralism there is still a

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Speaker 2: place for that, because you cannot geographically isolate yourself from

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Speaker 2: the impacts of disease from climate and nor can you

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Speaker 2: only ever hit your competitive with trade barriers. So that

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Speaker 2: is the complexity of the world that we operate in.

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Speaker 2: And I think, what's happening?

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Speaker 1: But I feel like people just having covered this for

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Speaker 1: so long, Yeah, I feel that people aren't necessarily receptive.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm making this massive generalization to complexities and

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Speaker 1: they want simple answers. And because they're fearful, that moves

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Speaker 1: into anger. Because people are angry, that moves into being

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Speaker 1: susceptible to that kind of weaponization. So how do we

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Speaker 1: meet people more receptive to an approach of problem solving

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Speaker 1: but also not other rising aren't blame, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that is the existential question. Of our time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the wider politicians reach for those easy, simple

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Speaker 2: messages because they're easy and simple, they can reach people

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Speaker 2: they were and they can really grab you. But the

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Speaker 2: long term consequence of that is actually dire for our

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Speaker 2: society and our communities, and it actually doesn't solve the problems.

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Speaker 2: So whether or not this is a long term political solution,

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Speaker 2: that's a real question, because as soon as people see

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Speaker 2: actually their lives aren't better or aren't different, then they

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Speaker 2: go hunting again. This is really interesting to me if

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Speaker 2: you dig into the research from the last European elections,

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Speaker 2: they looked at people who switched their voters to far

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Speaker 2: right parties and found that roughly only a quarter were

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Speaker 2: doing so because they believed in the ideology. Others felt

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Speaker 2: disenfranchised or felt that their system was broken, or there

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Speaker 2: was a singular policy that might have attracted them to that.

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Speaker 2: But that sends a message that actually, at the moment,

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Speaker 2: there is this disquiet and people are looking around, casting

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Speaker 2: around for the answers. And in Canada and in Australia

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Speaker 2: they elected two prime ministers who on election night chose

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Speaker 2: to use their victory speeches to talk about kindness, and

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Speaker 2: those were two individuals who were successfully elected by their people.

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Speaker 2: I do think that there are a number of voters

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Speaker 2: seeking an alternative, and particularly when we work really hard

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Speaker 2: on delivering the answers and solutions people are looking for,

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Speaker 2: that will make a difference.

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on

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Speaker 1: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,

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Speaker 1: and of course covering the news. And I know that

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Speaker 1: to keep doing what I love, I need to start

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Speaker 1: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why

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Speaker 1: I decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch

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Speaker 1: support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support

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Speaker 1: specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store

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Speaker 1: with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance

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Speaker 1: and support. My feet, knees and back are thanking me already.

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Speaker 1: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

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Speaker 1: or book your own free personalized fitting. Your book is

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to tell your whole story and about your childhood.

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Speaker 1: You grew up in Morinsville, is that my correctly New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: It's a rural dairy farming community. It's about two hours

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Speaker 1: south of Auckland. Your dad was a police officer, Your

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Speaker 1: mom worked in your school's cafeteria, and you and your

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Speaker 1: sister Louise were the first in your family to go

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Speaker 1: to college. Right, What was it as a kid that

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Speaker 1: lit the spark in you? Or was it at ember

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Speaker 1: it's slowly intensified over time. When did you decide I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be a leader? I didn't, and it's a

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Speaker 1: kind of decided, yeah, what you would be? Right.

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Speaker 2: It's a great question because we have this assumption that

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Speaker 2: in politics, because it's such a cut and thrust place,

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Speaker 2: that you must enjoy the sport of it yourself, and

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Speaker 2: that in itself must be quite enticing. Whereas actually a

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Speaker 2: lot of the politicians I've met, they're there in spite

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Speaker 2: of the politics, are there because you know, they saw

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Speaker 2: something in the community that they wanted to change, or

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Speaker 2: something about you know, policy or law that they felt

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Speaker 2: was unfair. There'll be something that motivated them. For me,

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Speaker 2: it was, you know, even at the time, if I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have articulated this way, I just, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I observed things that didn't feel fair, you know, consident

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Speaker 2: have some of the basic things that I had. That

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Speaker 2: early experience I think probably just sparked a bit of

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Speaker 2: a desire to be a part of making change, and

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Speaker 2: also I was raising a very service orientated household, and

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Speaker 2: politics to me, you know, when done right, is an

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Speaker 2: active service. So if you wanted to be a part

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Speaker 2: of making change, the best way to do it was

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Speaker 2: to go and volunteer for a political party, and I

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Speaker 2: did that. I didn't believe that I would end up

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Speaker 2: front of house as it were.

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Speaker 1: Right, you thought you'd be behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I thought I was reasonably well suited to that,

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Speaker 2: even though actually sometimes even then I struggled with the

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Speaker 2: intensity of the roles. But circumstance, random set of events

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Speaker 2: being asked often enough, all culminated and me finding myself

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Speaker 2: in Parliament. But from there, the mental of leadership was

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Speaker 2: not only something I wouldn't seek, something I actively told

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Speaker 2: people I did not want.

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Speaker 1: And yet things changed really because of circumstances. But before

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Speaker 1: we talk about how you became an unlikely prime minister,

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Speaker 1: you were almost crippled by anxiety and impostor syndrome and

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Speaker 1: feeling that you weren't enough. And I wonder how through

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Speaker 1: the years, because so many particularly women, I think, feel

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Speaker 1: that way, perhaps from cultural conditioning or societal norms, but

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Speaker 1: how were you able to ultimately compensate for that or

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Speaker 1: do you still feel like it past her still? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: I see this story because it actually, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: quite comforting. But one of the female pro miniss I

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Speaker 2: had the privilege of working for was someone called Helen Clark.

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Speaker 2: She was incredible, She lived New Zealand for nine years

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Speaker 2: and after she left office someone content I was. She

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Speaker 2: just always came across to me so self assured. And

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Speaker 2: she tells the story of someone calling her to suggest

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Speaker 2: to her that she might consider becoming the head of

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Speaker 2: the UN Development Program. And I was sitting in an

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Speaker 2: auditorium when she said she gave her response. She said

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Speaker 2: to them, oh, I'm not sure that I have enough

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Speaker 2: experience and aid and development And they said to her

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Speaker 2: down the phone, but Helen, you ran a country. And

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Speaker 2: so as soon as I heard that, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: so it's not just me who immediately moves to that,

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Speaker 2: you know, deficit approach of all of the reasons you

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Speaker 2: can't do something. Can I know I'm not alone in that?

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Speaker 1: No, And men always think they're overqualified, which is so serious,

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Speaker 1: and women, if they look at themselves, they say the

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Speaker 1: same thing. I couldn't do that. I'm not qualified.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean that didn't really change for me,

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Speaker 2: but the way I see that trait has changed. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I use the word anxious. I always just

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Speaker 2: describe myself as a bit of a warrior. You know.

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Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person that if there's risk on

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Speaker 2: the horizon, I'll immediately start planning for the strategies to

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Speaker 2: manage that risk. You know, actually that's probably quite helpful

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Speaker 2: when you're in a leadership role. You know, when you

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Speaker 2: have a confidence gap, you just instinctively over prepare. You

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Speaker 2: want to know more about the issues so that you're

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Speaker 2: ready to make decisions, and you'll bring in other people

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Speaker 2: to help with advice and expert knowledge. That's also quite

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Speaker 2: helpful when you're a leader. So I stopped seeing these

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Speaker 2: things as weaknesses so long as you're able to keep

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Speaker 2: them in check, because I know for many those feelings

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Speaker 2: can be crippling, and that's where our counsel that's not beneficial.

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Speaker 2: But if you are able to see the strengths, then

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Speaker 2: maybe that is.

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Speaker 1: But you became Prime Minister when you were what thirty

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Speaker 1: seventies old, which is insane, and you became prime minister

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Speaker 1: when you realize you were pregnant, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is the I guess the real contrast. Everyone

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Speaker 2: saw me as a young prime minister, but as an

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Speaker 2: expectant mother I was The medical term was geriatric, So

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Speaker 2: I had one of those Yeah, so common. Why don't they.

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Speaker 1: Share theatric pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: We should start the campaign here. I'm pro seasoned mother.

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Speaker 1: But I mean I watched a documentary that's coming out soon,

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Speaker 1: and you talk about this in your book, but I

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Speaker 1: was in awe of your ability to manage everything. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think your husband, Clerk serves a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 1: critic absolutely holding down the flour and parenting up babysitting.

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Speaker 1: Some father still describe it, but I do think, wow,

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Speaker 1: that was intense.

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Speaker 2: It was, and I think this is one of the

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Speaker 2: things that I'm so grateful that the documentary captures in

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Speaker 2: a way that I tried to do in the book.

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Speaker 2: But it just gives you that extra.

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Speaker 1: Layer and the visual, visual intimacy of very powerful Well

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Speaker 1: that that was Clark picking up a camera and filming

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, just because for no other reason than

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Speaker 1: he just thought, maybe this is this will be important,

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Speaker 1: Maybe this will be you know, a moment in.

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Speaker 2: History of swords. But what I'm really pleased he captured is,

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Speaker 2: you know, in amongst that notion which probably invariably happens

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Speaker 2: when there are so few people who have done a

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Speaker 2: thing like unfortunately I was only the second woman in

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Speaker 2: the world to have a baby whobbing an office. The

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Speaker 2: Buddho was the and so you can I think sometimes

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Speaker 2: feed that notion that women can do it all. And

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Speaker 2: I wanted to demonstrate, yes, women can, but they shouldn't

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Speaker 2: do it alone. And so I think the documentary shows

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Speaker 2: I was never alone, right, I was very well supported.

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Speaker 1: I know you were worried about framing it as you

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Speaker 1: were a superwoman and that look, you know I can

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Speaker 1: run a country and raise a daughter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we should never lift the bar that high, that

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Speaker 2: expectations too much for anyone. In fact, you know, I

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Speaker 2: remember one of the things of the experience of becoming

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Speaker 2: a mother. I would talk to my friend about this

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Speaker 2: all the time. How do women do this on their own?

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Speaker 2: How do they do it on their own? Those were

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Speaker 2: the heroes. If I was ever going to talk about superwomen,

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Speaker 2: it would be that group of women. And I started

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Speaker 2: thinking about it in policy terms, what are our policies

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Speaker 2: doing to support those parents, and of course not all

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Speaker 2: of them, exclusively women, those parents who are doing this

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Speaker 2: job on their own. I want to do more to support.

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Speaker 1: Your daughter, Neive. I thought it was very funny when

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Speaker 1: your mom was of like, Nive, that's an interesting name.

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Speaker 1: What were some of the other choices which made me translation,

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Speaker 1: I'm not crazy about that my name.

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Speaker 2: My mom is the most gorgeous human being. You could

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Speaker 2: not ask for a more supportive mother, you know, just amazing.

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Speaker 2: And there's something so universal about that moment. Now she's

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Speaker 2: been right. You know, I love the name. I love

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Speaker 2: the name.

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Speaker 1: It made me laugh though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she's you know, she's always had the ability though,

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Speaker 2: because of course with a parent, you're always thinking about

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Speaker 2: the wellbeing of your child. And I still remember the

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Speaker 2: morning after one of our elections where we'd lost but

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Speaker 2: I was still in Parliament, but I was in the

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Speaker 2: back bed, you know, I was in the opposition again,

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Speaker 2: and it was such a hard place to be, so dispiriting.

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Speaker 2: Morning after her coming into my room and sitting on

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Speaker 2: the end of my bed and just saying, you still

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Speaker 2: really want to do this? So, Mom, I just got

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Speaker 2: elected yesterday. It's a three year contract. But she's just yeah,

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Speaker 2: always just been so.

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Speaker 1: So I know that that fall of twenty eighteen, after

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Speaker 1: Neve was born, there was a photo of you holding

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Speaker 1: her well seated on the floor of the UN General Assembly.

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Speaker 2: Tybal photos so terrible. Why, oh well, you can see

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Speaker 2: that we have I was trying to explain this to someone.

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Speaker 2: You can see that we don't know this sum If

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Speaker 2: you look at the full spray, you can see I'm

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Speaker 2: craning my neck around because all I could hear. This

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Speaker 2: was not a full room, this was not the General

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Speaker 2: Assembly in session. It was a special event for Nelson Mandela.

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Speaker 2: And I'd just gone up and spoken and we hadn't

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Speaker 2: planned for Clark and need to come over, but she'd

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Speaker 2: woken up from her net, so he bought her over

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Speaker 2: and there was lots of space, so they sat down

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Speaker 2: on the floor when I came off from speaking, and

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Speaker 2: I'm holding her, making stupid phases, you know, just doing

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Speaker 2: their thing. And I just see and you can't see

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Speaker 2: the media up in the UN General Assembly that all

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Speaker 2: behind closed mirrored kind of rooms and an overhang. And

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Speaker 2: I sit to our ambassador at the UN. I said,

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Speaker 2: what's it?

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Speaker 1: Noise?

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Speaker 2: He said, Oh, the media are sit in those rooms.

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Speaker 2: Oh do they there? I am back at least making

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Speaker 2: these awful faces. And so that's that moment that apparently

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Speaker 2: was historic, was just just a very regular, spontaneous moment

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Speaker 2: for us as a family.

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Speaker 1: But I think it became but it became very symbolic

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Speaker 1: I think of women's potential again, wanting to issue this

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Speaker 1: whole super woman moniker. It did, I think help normalize

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Speaker 1: the fact that leaders could be mothers, yeah, and that

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Speaker 1: women could both have children and lead a country.

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Speaker 2: But that it will always continue to be It won't

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Speaker 2: always be leney, and it won't always be easy. And

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Speaker 2: that was there was also something that the book gave

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Speaker 2: me a chance to share behind the scenes because in

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Speaker 2: amongst us, you know, historic photo, I was really struggling

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Speaker 2: with managing different time zones. Breastfeeding never came easy for me,

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Speaker 2: and so there's this extra layer that was always going on,

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Speaker 2: and in that extra layer is something very universal. There's

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Speaker 2: a story for so many women, and I wanted to

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Speaker 2: share that as well, not for pity or compassion, but

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Speaker 2: actually just to say it doesn't matter where your station is,

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Speaker 2: or your role or what you're doing, the experience of

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Speaker 2: parenting as a great leveler, and maybe that will help

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Speaker 2: humanize people in public life a little bit as well,

436
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: because we could probably do with a bit of humanization

437
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: of one another.

438
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,719
Speaker 1: Perhaps the story behind the photo. Yeah, you know, I

439
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: think about the period of time just sender when you

440
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 1: were the Prime Minister and good lord. Yeah, it was

441
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: just one crisis after another. I think you truly burst

442
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: onto the world world stage six months later in March

443
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, when a far right Australian man killed

444
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: fifty one worshipers at that mask in christ Church, live

445
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: streaming the attack on Facebook. Tell me about the moment

446
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: you heard this was happening, and how you were able

447
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: to summon the strength and the leadership that were so

448
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: required at that moment.

449
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I remember that day so well. And of course,

450
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, when you're first presented with information, you know,

451
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: you get it in bits. And so I was on

452
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 2: my way, I was in a van with a local mayor,

453
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: on my way to visit a school when my pre

454
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: secretary handed me the phone and just said, you know,

455
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: there's a there's been a shooting. And over the course

456
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 2: of quite a short period of time, I learned that

457
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: a mosque was involved, and they weren't sure whether or

458
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 2: not it was a series of attacks coordinated it was,

459
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: but just that information gave a really early insight as

460
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: to perhaps what this might be. And it wasn't too

461
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: much later that we heard that he had prepared a manifesto,

462
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: a manifesto just full of hate, and he'd sent it

463
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: to my office, learning that he had deliberately targeted people

464
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 2: during Friday prayers in order to maximize the number of casualties.

465
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,479
Speaker 2: But not only that he'd done it because he had

466
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: an intention to try and create a war. He wanted

467
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 2: there to be retaliatory acts. That was part of his plan,

468
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: and also part of his plan was to become infamous himself.

469
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: And so New Zealand has just rejected that. You know,

470
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: as much as people may comment on the role that

471
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 2: I had to play as Prime Minister, in many ways,

472
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 2: I simply saw myself as leading out what was a

473
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 2: very New Zealand response, which was a complete rejection of

474
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 2: what he had tried to do. You know, an entire

475
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: nation who were gripped and united by grief, and a

476
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: Muslim community who showed such enormous grace towards New Zealanders

477
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: in that moment, opened mosques, opened their arms, allowed us

478
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: to join with them in that period of grief. It

479
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: will ever be one of the most deeply moving and

480
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: sad experiences I've had in my life. But I feel

481
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: so humble to have been in that role during that

482
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 2: period as well.

483
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: In a press conference after the attack, you said, quote,

484
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: many of the people affected by this extreme violence will

485
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: be from refugee and migrant communities. New Zealand is their home.

486
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,479
Speaker 1: They are us, and I think that freeze us echoed

487
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 1: around the world and did come to symbolize a different

488
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: kind of leadership, particularly during a period when immigrants were

489
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: being so dem eyes. Do you know one of the.

490
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 2: Things that I absolutely, I mean so much during this

491
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 2: period of events just crushed all of us. But learning

492
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: that two of the victims, one was a father from

493
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: Syria who had brought his family to New Zealand, well really,

494
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 2: I mean bought implies some kind of choice, but had

495
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: come to New Zealand for the safety and sanctuary of

496
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: being outside of Syria at that time, and he and

497
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 2: his son died. And I felt such responsibility because here

498
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: we were a nation that was meant to be a

499
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: form of safe harbor for that family, and they lost

500
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: their father and son, leaving behind a young girl, a sister,

501
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: a daughter, another son who was injured, and their mother

502
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 2: got to know that family a little bit, and the

503
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: fact that they, amongst others, were victims just absolutely devastated me.

504
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: So this idea that here we had a community he

505
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: intended when he undertook that attack to other our Muslim community.

506
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 2: And I really credit New Zealanders for the view that

507
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: they were just not going to let that happen. That

508
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: it didn't matter how long you had called New Zealand home,

509
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: it was home. It was home.

510
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's me Kitty Couric. You know, if you've

511
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: been following me on social media, you know I love

512
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

513
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

514
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: Lighty Hoik, Alison Roman and Ininagarten. So I started a

515
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips and

516
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: kitchen mustaves. Just sign up correct dot com slash good Taste.

517
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: That's k A t I E c o U r

518
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: ic dot com slash good Taste. I promised your taste

519
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: buds will be happy. You did. You describe a phone

520
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: call with President Trump in your book after the attack,

521
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: in which you discussed what might happen to the terrorists,

522
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: and he asked you if you were calling the gunman

523
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: that you said to him, yes, this was a white

524
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: man from Australia who deliberately targeted our Muslim community. We

525
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: are calling him that. Tell me what you felt during

526
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: that exchange with President Trump.

527
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean it was really you know, in my mind,

528
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: giving just the opportunity to give some context for why

529
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: that language was important for us, because you know, by default,

530
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: you know, by definition, if you were seeking to cause

531
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: fear and intimidation amongst a wider group of individuals through

532
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: your act, that's a terrorist act. And so it was

533
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: very you know, we were clear eyed on that. But

534
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 2: we were also clear eyed on the fact that we

535
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: were not going to use his name. You know, if

536
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: he was seeking in for me, and he was, he

537
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 2: was part of a community of individuals who liked to

538
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: see the repetition of their names and their attacks, well

539
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: we could deny him that. And for me, empathetic leadership,

540
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: people centered leadership, it is nothing without action. The idea

541
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 2: that you're simply emoting is not enough. So there were

542
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,239
Speaker 2: two things that came from this horrific experience. One was

543
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: the weapons that he used on that day to R fifteens,

544
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: in particular, alongside other military style semi automatic weapons. He

545
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: legally obtained them and then illegally modified them. But regardless,

546
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 2: these were weapons designed to take lives on mass and

547
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: they did that. I remember visiting the hospitals and just

548
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: coming away and seeing individuals who didn't have one gunshot,

549
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 2: where they had multiple wounds, you know, devastating wounds and

550
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: in such a short amount of time. And so we

551
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: were clear that our law needed to change, and so

552
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: we changed it. All members of parliament bar one, voted

553
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: in favor of a ban of military styles semi automatic

554
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: weapons within twenty seven days of the attack. And the

555
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: second thing we did. He used social media Facebook then

556
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 2: specifically to live stream his attack and it was broadcast

557
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: for seventeen minutes. It was uploaded once every second on

558
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: YouTube for the first twenty four hours, and one point

559
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 2: five million copies were removed from Facebook because, as I say,

560
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: his intention was to intimidate, to motivate others to violence,

561
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: to create this warfare, and that was one of his

562
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: tools was social media. So we created something that called

563
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: the Cross, which called to action, bringing together governments, platforms,

564
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: and civil society, first of its kind arrangement to try

565
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: and tackle rad vitalization and violent extremism online. And it's

566
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: still going to this day. I'm now the patron. A

567
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: number of things have changed as a consequence, but anyone

568
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: listening will know that work continues and it is one

569
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: of the I think great challenges we face.

570
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: You must look at this country and we've had so

571
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: many incidents of horrific gun violence at synagogues and schools

572
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: and places of worship and shopping centers and movie theaters.

573
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I could go on and on, and yet

574
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: with some small changes during the Biden administration, it seems

575
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: that we have not been able to muster the collective

576
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: will to do anything about it, to make guns less available.

577
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the right to bear arms the sort of

578
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: sacrosanct in this country. And I you know, watching as

579
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: a New Zealander, Jacinda, and now someone who lives in America,

580
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have a difficult time understanding why

581
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to do something. There's so many

582
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: people who want it done, and yet it never happens.

583
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, I'm always careful commenting on other

584
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: people's politics and policies because it's sometimes just cultural differences

585
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: and perspectives that I just won't fully understand. But we

586
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: do have high levels of gun ownership in New Zealand.

587
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 2: But I think probably it's always been seen as you know,

588
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,720
Speaker 2: whilst access was important, particularly as food producers and farmers

589
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 2: and hunters recreationally, it is still framed as a responsibility

590
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,760
Speaker 2: versus a right. And I also think that we're pretty

591
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: pragmatic in New Zealand, and I think that when it

592
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: came down to it, accessing guns was one thing, the

593
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: type of guns was another. You know, I kind of

594
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: really challenged anyone to mount an argument for me as

595
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: to why they needed an AAR fifteen. If you're a

596
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: duck shooter, you do not need an AR fifteen. You're

597
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: a hunter pest management. So, you know, New Zealand is

598
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: I think a really pragmatic approach, and so we did

599
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: not take that law from nowhere that came out of Australia.

600
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: They had a horrific attack in Port Arthur and the

601
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: then Conservative Prime Minister by the name of John Howard

602
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 2: instituted a ban on these same weapons, but also at

603
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: the same time a buyback, and I really believed that

604
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: was the right approach. You know, at the time that

605
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: people had acquired them, they'd done so legally, and so

606
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 2: therefore we should compensate them. And so we paid, depending

607
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: on the state of the gun eighty percent of market value.

608
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: People had that money into their accounts and then we

609
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: destroyed them and for us it was over fifty thousand weapons.

610
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: After the mask attack, then comes the pandemic. I'm like, wow,

611
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: your timing really sucks.

612
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 2: Just it does. It was actually a volcanic eruption in

613
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: between as well. Sorry, it was a real time. It

614
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 2: was for New Zealanders, you know, I remember.

615
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 1: I remember, sorry I mentioned the volcanic corruption and several

616
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: many people died. You were not able to evacuate that island, right.

617
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: Well, I mean they did evacuate individuals, but those who

618
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: remained very sadly had perished, and then we had to

619
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: undertake a body recovery. It was a horrific, horrific time. Again,

620
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, New Zealand really went through a lot for

621
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 2: a few years there.

622
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: And then, like the rest of the world, you go

623
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: through the pandemic, and your handling of this crisis was

624
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: heralded as a model of effective leadership and I think

625
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: contributed to your landslide Re election in twenty twenty. But

626
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: as time went on, God, oh hard, yeah, I mean impossible.

627
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: There was such a backlash. In early twenty twenty two,

628
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: the grounds of Parliament in Wellington became the epicenter of

629
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: a sprawling and volatile protest. I remember in the documentary

630
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: someone says, this is not like Kiwi's yeah, the nickname

631
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: for New Zealanders. Where was this coming from and why?

632
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: And I think about that read a lot, because the

633
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: context of when we had that occupation in Parliament was

634
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: six days after the Canadian blockade started, yes the convoy.

635
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: So there was some conversation around the knock on effective

636
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: of that, because in the New Zealand context, we weren't

637
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: using things like lockdowns anymore. We had reopened our borders,

638
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: we were back into normal life. We were having our

639
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: first real experience of COVID with omicron, but we were

640
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: doing so with a vaccination raid around ninety percent. So

641
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: and then this happened, and of course the frame for

642
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 2: those who came was vaxing mandates we had required people

643
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: who were working in healthcare, education, around our borders and

644
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: in the police force at their request to be vaccinated.

645
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 2: And so I think it is important to look at

646
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: not only what the stated reason for that protest was,

647
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: but also what my sat underneath, because there's something universal

648
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: about that latter part of the COVID experience for a

649
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: lot of countries, not just US, a lot of countries.

650
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: And you know, it was occurring in a time of

651
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: I think, deep anger over the experience of the pandemic.

652
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: It was so hard, but also a lot of disinformation,

653
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff swhirling from around different countries. We

654
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: saw some of the conspiracies that exist in the world

655
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 2: were on placards and signs down on our fore court,

656
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: you know, the odd American flag and so on. So

657
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 2: I think that there is a debate to be had

658
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: beyond geographic boundaries over what do we do about disinformation

659
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 2: as well as looking at just our pandemic responses. Generally,

660
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: we need to learn from the mouse wasn't a perfect response.

661
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: It saved and estimated twenty thousand lives. We spent less

662
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: time in lockdowns than you know, most countries. Our lives

663
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: for large periods was relatively normal, but it still had

664
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: an impact. It was still hard, and we need to

665
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: learn from that experience in retrospect.

666
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: Would you have done anything differently?

667
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: Well, I've always thought that, you know, because you have

668
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 2: in your mind the context in which you were making

669
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 2: all those decisions, that imperfect information. It's really hard to say, well,

670
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 2: I would have done that. But that doesn't mean you

671
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: shouldn't ask the question. We put in place a royal commission,

672
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: that's the most independent form of inquiry you can have

673
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, and we put ex boots on there.

674
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: So please God tell us, you tell us objectively. And

675
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: so they did, and they came back with a range

676
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: of recommendations, and I don't disagree with any of them,

677
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: but we have to be willing to learn because this won't,

678
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: sadly be an isolated experience. I hope never again in

679
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: my lifetime, but we have to be prepared.

680
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: The ugliness of some of those protesters was so upsetting

681
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: to me. The placards and the threats against you, and

682
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: just the meanness totally antithetical to what you're trying to

683
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: promote in this book and in your style of leadership.

684
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: And you described one moment in an airport bathroom when

685
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: a woman came up to you and said, thank you

686
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: for running our country. Yes, it is hard, and I'm

687
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: assuming you just didn't take these things personally.

688
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean even I mean, gosh, it's you know,

689
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 2: I remember, of course the occupation was terribly difficult.

690
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: And then the kind of aftermath, Jacinda, where you had

691
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: almost your own kind of January six where the police.

692
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: Well that was itself, the occupation, and mean, one thing

693
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 2: I kept in mind. Of course it wasn't everyone. Of

694
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 2: course it wasn't everyone, you know, and relative to our

695
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: population size, you know, it was a small portion, but

696
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: you know, it was nonetheless very confronting. But even then

697
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: I would look out over that crowd some days and

698
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 2: think everything we'd done was about trying to safe bull's

699
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 2: lives and protect people. But they think that's what they're doing.

700
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: Some people believe the vaccine killed people, you know, and

701
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: so they thought they were trying to save lives. And

702
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: so you could almost even in those two completely different positions,

703
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 2: see that, you know, if half of what they were

704
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: reading was true, you know, I might feel that angry

705
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 2: as well. But it's those two things. The fact that

706
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: we sometimes now can't even agree on facts. That's extremely

707
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: disruptive for democracies. And then the second people's willingness to

708
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: tip into violence is also I believe in this. The

709
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: research suggests increasing people thinks violence is justified now as

710
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: a political act. Those are two very challenging situations that

711
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: I do think need to be addressed.

712
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: So what do we do about it?

713
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 2: While I do two things, I don't think we should

714
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: feel hopeless or a sense that there isn't work being

715
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: done in community to try and bridge those divides. People

716
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: talk about it as polarization. I see it more as entrenchment,

717
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: a depth of feeling that is intransigent. But I've certainly

718
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: come across groups that are working hard in their own

719
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 2: communities to try and restore the respectful debate in that dialogue.

720
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: The second thing is we do need to raise a

721
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: generation who are not cynical, but curious, who question what

722
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: they see, who ask questions, who seek alternative sources, to

723
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 2: really try and differentiate between the disinformation that they will

724
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: increasingly be exposed to op media literacy. Indeed, but I

725
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 2: do think we also need to hold accountable those who

726
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: are publishers, not postmen and at the moment, we have

727
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 2: a lot of platforms online who don't see themselves as

728
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 2: responsible for that information environment. I believe in a free

729
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: and open internet. I believe in freedom of speech, but

730
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 2: things like disinformation, this is something else that we have

731
00:42:58,120 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: to be willing to debate and talk about.

732
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: You announced your resignation in January twenty twenty three, saying

733
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: you no longer felt you had enough in the tank

734
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: to do the job. Justice take us inside that moment.

735
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: I know this was a very hard decision for you.

736
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: It was talk about what kind of put you over

737
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: the edge. I mean, there were a few things leading

738
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,479
Speaker 1: up to it. I know that you had a little

739
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: bit of a breast cancer scare. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe

740
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: that's oversteating it.

741
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's It's interesting. I put it in

742
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: the in the book and someone asked me why didn't

743
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 2: you talk about this earlier? And I said, because it

744
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: wasn't the reason I left, and nor was it you know,

745
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 2: so significant or you know, women have that kind of

746
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,719
Speaker 2: thing happened all the time. I didn't want to overstate it.

747
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 2: But what it did do is suddenly give me a

748
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: frame to think about you know, why, why when my

749
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: GP said, you need to go and have further testing.

750
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 2: Why was the first thing that came into my head

751
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 2: Maybe if this ends up being cancer, maybe I could leave.

752
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 2: And as soon as it hit hit, you know, came

753
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: into my mind, I thought, that is a very dark

754
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: that is a very dark way to think about this

755
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: new information. And it made me realize that I had

756
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: not entertained the idea because I felt such a sense

757
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 2: of responsibility to be there and that the only thing

758
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: that was going to take me out of it was

759
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: if I thought the choice was being removed. So that's

760
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: the reason that moment was important, because something I thought,

761
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: maybe I need to think about this a bit more.

762
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 1: And then what was the thing that was there? One

763
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: thing or was just a culmination of things?

764
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 2: There wasn't one thing, you know, and some people talk about,

765
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 2: you know, the aftermath of COVID. I left twelve months after,

766
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: you know, we'd continued on with life. There was nothing

767
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: politically particularly going on. Polling wise, we were you know,

768
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: a few points shy of where we were when I

769
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: was elected. There was nothing particularly dramatic, and I wanted

770
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 2: it that way because I think it's okay to leave

771
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: without scandal or death. Or loss. But actually just because

772
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: you know that you're not able to continue to be

773
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: the type of letter that you need to be in

774
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 2: that job, sometimes there's a responsibility to leave.

775
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: Why do you think so many politicians have difficulty doing that?

776
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, so many people stay too long at the fair.

777
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: They don't want to give up the power, the prestige,

778
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: whatever it is.

779
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: Too long at the fair. I love that turn and phrase.

780
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 2: It makes it sound like it's a really good time.

781
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: Too long at the gauntletness. You know, I understand how

782
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: it happens because obviously your team that surround you, they're

783
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: really supportive, they really encourage you, and sometimes you can

784
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: end up feeling like, you know, you'll be leaving people

785
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,760
Speaker 2: adrift if you go. And also it's a lonely decision.

786
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 2: You can't talk too many about it because if it

787
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: gets out there you're thinking of leaving, that can be

788
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 2: in itself that can make the decision for you. And

789
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: so I totally understand how it happens. And I hadn't wils.

790
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: I really hadn't thought about it. You know, maybe maybe

791
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: by leaving it gave a little permission for people to

792
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: think differently about departure. I don't know. I don't know.

793
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 2: All I know is no one really particularly supported me

794
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 2: to leave, and so I had to do it in

795
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 2: spite of the views of others. And so I can

796
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: see how that happens for politicians.

797
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the pressure and depreciative. So people whose livelihood depends

798
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 1: on your staam put me and invertently kind of pressure

799
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: you to stay because they're thinking a lot about themselves, understandably.

800
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 2: And you know, for me, it was, you know, we

801
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 2: were one year out from another election, and I believed,

802
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: you know that we had so much more work to

803
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 2: do on climate change, housing, chop poverty, things that really

804
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: mattered to me. So winning mattered to me because that

805
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: was the only way to keep making a difference on

806
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: those things. But it didn't I mean, I personally needed

807
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 2: to win. And there was a part of me that thought,

808
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: when you governed through COVID, you bring baggage, you do.

809
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 2: It's just it's the privilege and the price of the job.

810
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 2: I ended up having to make decisions I knew were unpopular.

811
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 2: I knew they were unpopular and that I'd pay a

812
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,280
Speaker 2: price for them, but they still I thought of people

813
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: survived this pandemic because of it. Then that's worth it.

814
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: But it didn't mean that. I saw myself as a

815
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: bit of a flashpoint for some people, And if leaving

816
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: could bring the temperature down in politics, that would be

817
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: worth it too. That would be worth it too.

818
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

819
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

820
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

821
00:47:50,520 --> 00:48:02,919
Speaker 1: Wake Up Call by going to katiecurrec dot com. It's

822
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: hard to imagine just send a politician more diametrically opposed

823
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: to your style of governing and your desire to lead

824
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: with compassion and kindness than the current President of the

825
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: United States, Donald Trump. And as a former world leader,

826
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 1: I'm curious what it's been like for you, especially now

827
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: that you're at Harvard, which is in the crosshairs. What

828
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: has it been like for you witnessing his behavior both

829
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: in this country and his efforts to remake the global

830
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: order in such a profound way.

831
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,919
Speaker 2: As the previous leader of a small country who's long

832
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 2: being affected by the engagement of others in multilateralism or

833
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: an international rules based order, you know, it matters to

834
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: me deeply whether or not we have a grave departure

835
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: of that sense of collective responsibility. When I think about

836
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: some of the significant challenges that we face. Pandemics don't

837
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 2: respect borders, neither disclimate change, and you know, our economic exposure. Generally,

838
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 2: we are so connected now, and the idea that we

839
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: can govern in a way that ignores that successfully, I

840
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: don't believe that to be true. I don't believe that

841
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 2: to be true because of how connected now we are.

842
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 2: But that's a view ol shee universally, regardless of who's

843
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: in power or what country I'm speaking to, you have to,

844
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: of course, as a politician, satisfy the domestic needs of

845
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: the people who elected you to serve them. But I

846
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: believe you're best able to do that whilst acknowledging the

847
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: connection that we have with others. The second thing for me,

848
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 2: though I never really saw myself on departure, is going

849
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 2: into the leadership space. I thought there's plenty of people

850
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 2: who are well seized in the practice of leadership, talk

851
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 2: about what's needed and the practice of leadership itself. But

852
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: because there was so much conversation around different forms in politics,

853
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 2: I was convinced to start a fellowship on empathetic leadership

854
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 2: and it has been one of the most satisfying things

855
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: I've been involved with since I left, because there are

856
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: there are politicians out there who are doing things differently,

857
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: but you won't see them in headlines. You won't see

858
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: them always in lights, even though they are often quite senior.

859
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: Because our system we gravitate towards reading and seeing and

860
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 2: experiencing and feeling the rage of the extremes. I want

861
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 2: to spotlight the alternative because it is there, and I

862
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 2: think it needs to be acknowledged and given half a chance,

863
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 2: I think voters will seek to reward it as well.

864
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: There are many people who are very disheartened and disturbed

865
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: and concerned about what's happening yeah in the United States

866
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:04,959
Speaker 1: right now, about democratic norms being ignored or democracy even

867
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: being dismantled. And I would love to ask you what

868
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: so many people ask me, what can we do? I

869
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: know you're a New Zealander, but you do live in

870
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 1: America and you do care about democracy and democratic principles,

871
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: and I think people are feeling so powerless and at

872
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: such a loss. I feel that way. Honestly. I'm trying

873
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: to help explain what's happening to people. That's where I

874
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: think I can be of service. But for people watching this,

875
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,959
Speaker 1: what would you say to them? How can you give

876
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: them hope? Because I know that you say you're still optimistic,

877
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: and you're saying optimism is not naive, it's hope. And

878
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 1: you've quoted Lord Shackleton's well saying optimism is moral courage.

879
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: It is.

880
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: But I have to be honest. It's hard to be

881
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: optimistic right now.

882
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: And I completely understand that. But my fear is that

883
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 2: without optimism, you know, without that expectation, because that's how

884
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 2: I see optimism. Optimism is an expectation that things can

885
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: and should be better, and there's a moment that we

886
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 2: lose that expectation, we run the risk of drifting into

887
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 2: a difference. And we can't afford that either, you know,

888
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, messages, And again I am

889
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 2: an observerst I'm always careful to give these commentaries. But

890
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 2: what I'm suggesting is possible is within your own history.

891
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 2: And when you think about the tumultuous times that we've

892
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: gone through as global communities, you know, Great Depression, World

893
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 2: War Two, significant moments in time, and then you know,

894
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 2: predating that, of course, a horrific pandemic in influenza that

895
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 2: took out the same number of people. There's casualties in

896
00:52:55,000 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 2: those wars. We've had very extreme and tumultuous times as

897
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 2: humans before and during that time, you had a president

898
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 2: that many described as an empathetic leader in FDR who,

899
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 2: during great complexity of the Great Depression, where perhaps it

900
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: would have been easier just to resort to blame and fear,

901
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 2: would engage in fireside chats explaining to the American public

902
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: not only what was going on and you know, the

903
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 2: economic wins, but what the response would be. These aren't

904
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: These aren't lofty ideals that have never been implemented before.

905
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: There is examples of it in America's own history. As

906
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 2: long as people maintain an expectation of what they expect

907
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 2: in leadership.

908
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: What are you most excited about when it comes to

909
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: your future. I know that you'll stay in Boston for

910
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: a while, How long do you think, Oh.

911
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: We're looking for you know, always looking at what the

912
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 2: next adventure will be. We're not going to be away

913
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,479
Speaker 2: from New Zealand forever. It's home. So we've always called

914
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 2: this little adventure and the first one was meant to

915
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,320
Speaker 2: be three months it's just happens turned into two years.

916
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,399
Speaker 2: But New Zealand is still home.

917
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: As someone who's at Harvard, I mean, Harvard is under

918
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 1: incredible pressure, as I mentioned, in the crosshairs of the

919
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: Trump administration. What do you think about Harvard's pushback and

920
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: refusal to acquiesce to some of the things that the

921
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: administration is asking for and in fact suing the Trump administration?

922
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: And what is it like being at Harvard right now?

923
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: So I'm obviously not at the center. I'm not a

924
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 1: member of faculty. I mean, I know you're not.

925
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: Indeed, I think that's an important point to make. I'm

926
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: merely there as a fellow and undeniably obviously there's there's,

927
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: you know, a tense environment in this moment and time.

928
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 2: All I can reflect on is, you know, my own

929
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 2: time and leadership and politics back in New Zealand. You know,

930
00:54:53,040 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: we there was separation between government and higher education. We've

931
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: seen higher education as we call it a New Zealand

932
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,320
Speaker 2: or tertiary education has almost been There's always a conscience,

933
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:08,319
Speaker 2: you know, it's always there as a commentary on where

934
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: we are and society and politics, history, you know, our

935
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 2: place in the world for us certainly in New Zealand,

936
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: And I've always valued the clear separation between politics and

937
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 2: their ability to govern, manage and preside over that role

938
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 2: as a conscience. So that's my perspective from a New

939
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 2: Zealand governance perspective.

940
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: Here here's some questions from my followers. Just send it.

941
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,479
Speaker 1: Will you ever come back to public service? I still,

942
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: in a way feel like I'm in some kind of

943
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 1: public service. I'm not campaigning for myself, but I'm campaigning

944
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: for humanity. What is your favorite girl Scout cookie?

945
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 2: Oh? No, that has a story because in New Zealand

946
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 2: we have two types, plain and chocolate covered. And when

947
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: I discovered there's this whole range it is, it has

948
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: become a bit of a thing for me.

949
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 1: So what is your favorite?

950
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 2: Oh? I'm a great lover of the Caramel Deluge, and

951
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: I can say and caramel. I say this having tried

952
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: about I ordered a box from my local chapter. And

953
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,759
Speaker 2: when I say a box, I mean a can of

954
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: like six different flavors, and the Caramel Delight is delicious.

955
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a thin ment girl in the freezer, yes,

956
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: and the freezer, but I always eat the whole sleeve

957
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 1: and it's a real problem for that delicious? Okay, how

958
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: can we get America to elect a woman president?

959
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: I you know, Gosh, I'm just gonna say this. It

960
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 2: will happen in my lifetime. I believe it, really, Yeah,

961
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 2: I do.

962
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: I hope it happens in my lifetime too. Just said,

963
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,280
Speaker 1: I'm a little older than you are.

964
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 2: And I say that as someone who does not much

965
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: for my longevity. So that's my optimism.

966
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe fewer caramel delights would be helpful. What is

967
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: your favorite professional book or podcast?

968
00:56:55,480 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 2: Oh? Do I expose my listening interests. Probably the podcast

969
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 2: that I have listened to the most over the years

970
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 2: is called Criminal. I love it. I love it. Phebe

971
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: Judge amazing, amazing podcast or amazing interviewer, such a calming voice,

972
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 2: so I've listened to it for years. I love it.

973
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 1: Any books that you have really loved that meet an

974
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: impression on you.

975
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: I recently read Melinda French Gates book The Next Time Transitions. Yeah,

976
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 2: it's beautiful. It's a beautiful book. Beautiful. And I also

977
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 2: recently listened to the audiobook of The Beasting. It's such

978
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 2: an incredible Irish storytelling. There's something so strong about Irish

979
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 2: writers and so the beasting. I highly recommend.

980
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's been such a thrill, as I said, to

981
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: meet you and talk to you, and congratulations on your book.

982
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: It is like giving birth. I can attest to that

983
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 1: a different kind of power. Just send to ardur and

984
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 1: how your official title is the Honorable Dean? What do

985
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: I have? What is your beav side?

986
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: I go to tell you because I tell me I

987
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 2: prefer people not to use it. Think do you want

988
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 2: me to say it is problematic for me? Officially? It

989
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 2: would be the right Honorable Dame. Just sender it's too much.

990
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: It's too much today, I'll just say just send me

991
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: thank you. I prefer thank you so much, Thank you.

992
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

993
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

994
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

995
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

996
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

997
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

998
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

999
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1000
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1001
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,440
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1002
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1003
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1004
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1005
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1006
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's

1007
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: Katie Curic. You know I'm always on the go between

1008
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course

1009
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: covering the news, And I know that to keep doing

1010
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: what I love, I need to start caring for what

1011
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:39,040
Speaker 1: gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to

1012
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Speaker 1: try the Good Feet stores personalized arch support system. I

1013
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1014
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Speaker 1: a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three

1015
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1016
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Speaker 1: knees and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot

1017
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1018
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