Speaker 1: Guess what mango?
Speaker 2: What's that will? So I was traveling last week and
Speaker 2: as I go through security, I'm waiting on my bag
Speaker 2: to be scanned, and I catch this strong whiff of
Speaker 2: pure ol and it reminded me to pull mine out,
Speaker 2: because there's something about all this stuff going in and
Speaker 2: out of bins that really grosses me out. But then
Speaker 2: I realized mine wasn't on me. So I looked at
Speaker 2: the end of the moving belt and I saw there
Speaker 2: was a dispenser. I walk over and I put some
Speaker 2: of that magic on my hands. Ten feet after that,
Speaker 2: there was another dispenser. Suddenly I started noticing these things everywhere.
Speaker 2: I could have gone swimming in all the hand sanitizer
Speaker 2: available to me. It's something so present in our lives.
Speaker 2: My son just calls it hand sand hand sand. I
Speaker 2: hope that takes off me too, And it made me
Speaker 2: wonder how did hand sanitizer become such a thing, And
Speaker 2: it turns out it goes all the way back to
Speaker 2: this woman named Goldie Lipman, who worked at a rubber
Speaker 2: plant in the forties. At the time, workers would use
Speaker 2: benzene to get carbon off their hands, which is super harsh.
Speaker 2: So Goldie and her husband Jerry, invitted a more gentle,
Speaker 2: waterless cleaner. It's this classic startup story. They lived in
Speaker 2: their parents' attic, they mixed up test batches the laundry machine,
Speaker 2: and then they packaged it in pickle jars. Right, so artisical,
Speaker 2: I know. But then they tried to sell the stuff
Speaker 2: and it didn't go so well.
Speaker 1: How come?
Speaker 2: Well, no one wanted to try this goofy stuff, you know,
Speaker 2: So Jerry came up with a sales trick. Just before
Speaker 2: a meeting. He scored a little dab on his palm.
Speaker 2: Then when someone would shake his hand, they'd get startled
Speaker 2: because who wants to feel this cold, wet glob and
Speaker 2: a handshakes It's.
Speaker 1: Pretty gross, I know.
Speaker 2: But as they rubbed it to get it off, the
Speaker 2: factory stains would vanish from inside their palms, which I
Speaker 2: guess is pretty smart. It's a genius, I think. And
Speaker 2: so this is the proto PUREL and today hand sanitizers
Speaker 2: are everywhere. But looking at all the hands sand around us,
Speaker 2: it got me wondering are we being over protective?
Speaker 1: How clean should we be?
Speaker 2: And that's the question we're tackling on today's part time genius. Hey,
Speaker 2: there podcast listeners, I'm Will Pearson and as always I'm
Speaker 2: joined by my good friend Mangash hot ticketter, and you're
Speaker 2: listening to Part Time Genius now today I can barely
Speaker 2: recognize Mangosh because he's currently wrapped in plastic wrap from
Speaker 2: the office kitchen. Any reeks of hand sanitizer? Did I
Speaker 2: use too much?
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe a little.
Speaker 3: Well, I know Purell is more your thing, but ever
Speaker 3: since doing all this research on germs this week, I'm
Speaker 3: thinking of making it my signature scent. Like how prints
Speaker 3: always smell like lavender.
Speaker 1: I can't say that I was aware of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, used to smell like heavy, heavy lavender, and his
Speaker 3: friends used to say that they could smell his presence
Speaker 3: like a full minute before he entered the room. So
Speaker 3: you'd be sitting there and you'd feel this hit of
Speaker 3: lavender and then oh, you'd just appear like an angel. Anyway,
Speaker 3: after this week, I'm thinking of doing that with Purel.
Speaker 2: I think that's a that's a brilliant plan, Mango. But
Speaker 2: you know what's interesting, and I realize we're going deep
Speaker 2: on hand sanitizer before this episode even starts. But one
Speaker 2: of the things customers always indicate is a preference for
Speaker 2: unscented sanitizers, but when hand sanitizer companies came out with
Speaker 2: more a few years ago, not only did customers not
Speaker 2: buy the fragrance ree versions, but there was concern in
Speaker 2: the health community that people weren't applying enough of it
Speaker 2: to really kill the germs. Well, I'm pretty sure I
Speaker 2: used enough of it.
Speaker 1: I would agree with that.
Speaker 2: But speaking of our research this week, we were reminded
Speaker 2: yet again that science is weird because it feels like
Speaker 2: we're always reading these contradictory reports. It's healthy to drink
Speaker 2: wine one week, then it's not healthy to drink wine.
Speaker 2: It's healthy to drink coffee, It's not healthy to drink coffee.
Speaker 2: You know, it turns out it's not healthy to smoke
Speaker 2: a bucket full of cigarettes. That is how they sell
Speaker 2: cigarettes now today.
Speaker 3: Still, yeah, you want to get them by the top,
Speaker 3: that's the super cool thing to do.
Speaker 2: And it feels like studies on germs are the same way.
Speaker 2: I mean, we know it's good to be clean, but
Speaker 2: we also hear reports that tell us to quit trying
Speaker 2: to kill every germ out there. Speaking of which, before
Speaker 2: we fully dive into this, I know we can both
Speaker 2: be a little germaphobic, Mango, But what's one thing you
Speaker 2: do it was a germophobe that you'd be embarrassed to admit.
Speaker 1: I know. For me, it's that as soon as I.
Speaker 2: Walk into a hotel room, I look for the free
Speaker 2: shower cap and the bathroom or the plastic bag and
Speaker 2: the ice bucket to slip over the remote control so
Speaker 2: like a remote control condom. Oh yeah, I love it.
Speaker 3: So we've known each other for almost twenty years now,
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure you know this, but I won't
Speaker 3: take a sip out of a drink someone else has
Speaker 3: been drinking from.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: And it's not just germophobic, it's cultural. Like in India,
Speaker 3: the tap water is undrinkable, so families tend to keep
Speaker 3: big glass bottles filled with purified water on tables. They're
Speaker 3: communal and they're just builled and ready to drink from.
Speaker 3: So as a four year old, you learn to pour
Speaker 3: water from one or two inches above your mouth, so
Speaker 3: you're never actually touching your lips to it. And it's
Speaker 3: all because you don't want to spread germs, like if
Speaker 3: you've touched your lips to it, then you've ruined it
Speaker 3: for everyone else. But and this is the weird part,
Speaker 3: and it's hard for me to say out loud, but
Speaker 3: even if my wife sees me drinking a bottle of
Speaker 3: root beer and just takes a swig, I can't drink
Speaker 3: it out, Like, I really can't I drink it. I
Speaker 3: have to force myself. And so that's my big secret.
Speaker 3: Like my sister and I both, it's this weird mixture
Speaker 3: of like Indian politeness and germophobeness and sort.
Speaker 2: Of where those things ven diagram. I think this is
Speaker 2: really the kind of thing you shouldn't admit, not because
Speaker 2: it's that embarrassing, but because friends love to mess with
Speaker 2: you on things like this. It's like when friends find
Speaker 2: out that I can't stand for my nose to be touched.
Speaker 2: It makes me dizzy, and then they just think it's
Speaker 2: so funny to walk up and tapy right on the
Speaker 2: use a button nose.
Speaker 1: That's right now.
Speaker 2: We also wanted our podcast listeners to share some of
Speaker 2: their more embarrassing germaphobic moments on Facebook. So if you're
Speaker 2: up for sharing, contribute your story to our Facebook page
Speaker 2: and we'll be mailing out a big and ridiculous prize
Speaker 2: to our favorite three stories. What's the prize again, I
Speaker 2: can't tell you that's going to be huge, so big.
Speaker 1: Can't wait.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about this recent cover story and New Scientists.
Speaker 2: You know this is one of my favorite magazines. I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: how many times a day do I mention my love
Speaker 2: of New Scientists? Conservatively? Maybe four hundred?
Speaker 1: Well, i'd say at least yeah.
Speaker 2: So Penny Sarche, biomedical news editor for New Scientists, which
Speaker 2: we've established I love, and who's going to be joining
Speaker 2: us a little later today wrote a story titled Germ Warfare,
Speaker 2: and in it she talks about this struggle of trying
Speaker 2: to figure out how clean is too clean, because we
Speaker 2: know good hygiene helps prevent infection and the spread of disease,
Speaker 2: but we also know they are definitely good bacteria that
Speaker 2: keep us well. But let's back up a little bit.
Speaker 2: So in the late eighties and early nineties, many researchers
Speaker 2: really started to get behind the theory that kids were
Speaker 2: developing allergies later because they were avoiding so many infections
Speaker 2: early in life, and they had plenty of evidence to
Speaker 2: point to my kids are less likely to develop allergies
Speaker 2: or asthma if they grow up on a farm or
Speaker 2: grew up.
Speaker 3: With a dog, or if their parents wash dishes by hand.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're a dishwasher.
Speaker 2: Family, so whit kids are screwed. Definitely us two. But oh,
Speaker 2: here's a really gross one. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2: You might want to gargle a little more pure l
Speaker 2: before I read this, though, so Sarche says a twenty
Speaker 2: fourteen paper that found that children are less likely to
Speaker 2: develop precursors to asthma if in their first year they're
Speaker 2: exposed to particles from cats, mice, and cockroaches.
Speaker 1: It makes you wonder if.
Speaker 2: They'll eventually develop a powder made of cat hair, mice tails,
Speaker 2: and cockroach faces that you sprinkle on your kid.
Speaker 1: Cockroach faces. Yeah, I don't know why it has to
Speaker 1: be faces, but it just seemed all of it was gross.
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine that.
Speaker 3: Actually, I read this piece in the La Times about
Speaker 3: Amish families and their homes because the kids tend to
Speaker 3: have considerably less asthma. And scientists actually took dust from
Speaker 3: regular homes and then dust from Amish households, and when
Speaker 3: they sprinkled the Amish dust in front of mice's noses,
Speaker 3: it tended to protect the mice's airways from allergens, which
Speaker 3: is so crazy, so amish dust. It's like a new
Speaker 3: business idea, we are going to be so rich. Actually,
Speaker 3: do you know who was really dirty and probably didn't
Speaker 3: have much?
Speaker 4: Ask?
Speaker 1: Now, who's that? I can't wait for the answer on
Speaker 1: this one.
Speaker 2: What is that of right?
Speaker 3: For some reason I got stuck in a rabbit hole
Speaker 3: about royalty and according to the economist, kings from France
Speaker 3: and England in the fifteen hundreds and sixteen hundreds were
Speaker 3: the dirtiest.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 3: Like they believe hot water was the devil and that
Speaker 3: it could open up your pores and let all sorts
Speaker 3: of illness in. So here are a few stories I found,
Speaker 3: like Francis Henry the fourth famously stunk of quote sweat
Speaker 3: stables feet and Garland, oh Louis the eighth didn't have
Speaker 3: his first bath until he was seven.
Speaker 2: Oh god versa ill for all the.
Speaker 3: Glamorous laboratories like washing with water wasn't even a concern.
Speaker 3: And England's James the First never bathed. He only washed
Speaker 3: his fingertips, just just the tips.
Speaker 1: That is so gross.
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, being healthy and living forever isn't as simple
Speaker 2: as just saying, okay, let's be dirtier. But before we
Speaker 2: dig into that, how about we break for a quiz.
Speaker 1: Sounds smart, So, Mango, who do we have on the
Speaker 1: line to play today?
Speaker 3: So we've got two lab scientists. Their names are Bertha
Speaker 3: and Umish, and Umesh is a special guest.
Speaker 1: He's your dad.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: Well, Umesh, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. So you know, Umesh was a chemical
Speaker 2: engineer who worked on several agriculture products over the years.
Speaker 1: But I heard that you actually first got.
Speaker 2: Interested in chemistry and experiments by baking bread with your
Speaker 2: dad as a kid in India.
Speaker 1: Is this true? Or is Mango just making stuff up
Speaker 1: as usual.
Speaker 2: You used to make the week Club and we had
Speaker 2: to modify it for gluten and other things to make it.
Speaker 3: Should it rose and reacted with the east.
Speaker 1: Oh that's wonderful. That's really neat. What a great way
Speaker 1: to be introduced to the sciences.
Speaker 2: And our second guest, Bertha is at the University of Alabama, Birmingham.
Speaker 1: Bertha, welcome to the show.
Speaker 5: Hey Ertha, Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit what you do at UAB So.
Speaker 5: I'm a genetic epigemiologist. And that does not mean that
Speaker 5: I study skin diseases. I study genetics and TAISI diabetes
Speaker 5: and ABCD and cardivascular disease and try and figure out
Speaker 5: what environmental exposures can change some of our genetic outcomes.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, very cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we do the same thing, but Mengo and I
Speaker 2: are both really into that kind of just on the side. Yeah,
Speaker 2: speaking of on the side, I understand that when you
Speaker 2: first got into the field, you weren't quite making enough
Speaker 2: money to make ends meet, so you would ballroom dance
Speaker 2: to bring in additional money.
Speaker 1: Is this true?
Speaker 4: I did.
Speaker 5: I am responsible for many a wedding first dance choreography.
Speaker 5: Oh well y yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: Oh cool.
Speaker 2: Well, best the best science is very collaborative science. So
Speaker 2: we've decided to let you to team up for this quiz.
Speaker 1: Now, what are we playing, Mango.
Speaker 2: We're playing a game called clean Sweep. Hmm, okay, all right, now,
Speaker 2: normally we would try to make some sort of tangential connection,
Speaker 2: like being lab scientists, you're very good at sanitizing things.
Speaker 1: But we want to be honest with you here.
Speaker 2: We just found a lot of words that rhymed with
Speaker 2: clean and turn them into quiz questions.
Speaker 1: So this is how it works.
Speaker 2: We're going to give you a clue and then you
Speaker 2: say the word clean before the example.
Speaker 1: So this is so stupid, Mango. You're the best at
Speaker 1: these awful courses, all right, So give us a sample, Mango.
Speaker 3: So the reason we wear costumes on October thirty first.
Speaker 2: You would say clean Halloween, right, or Elizabeth the second's title.
Speaker 2: In England you might say clean Queen.
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 1: All right, you guys got it? Okay, So here we go.
Speaker 2: We're gonna let you guys go one at a time,
Speaker 2: but you're working together, and if one of you doesn't
Speaker 2: get it, you can toss it to the other person. So, Bertha,
Speaker 2: we will start with you. Question number one. A stretched
Speaker 2: out car that glamorous people get to drive in.
Speaker 5: Ooh clean limousine.
Speaker 2: Well for one umesh an underwater vessel the Beatles sang
Speaker 2: about you got it all right, Bertha? A jingle jangle
Speaker 2: hand instrument. Bob Dylan asks a man to play in
Speaker 2: the song.
Speaker 3: Oh my Goodness, I punch and my dad as a
Speaker 3: backup singer in a Rolling Stones band in Colin might
Speaker 3: not this all right?
Speaker 1: Let's hear it.
Speaker 2: It's a jingle jangle hand instrument. It would be a
Speaker 2: clean tambourine.
Speaker 1: That's okay, we only have to get six out of.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 1: This is back to you.
Speaker 2: The thing you mix with ginger ale in a Shirley temple. Clean,
Speaker 2: well done, Nice there, Bertha. Okay, this one's back to you,
Speaker 2: all right. A character with adamantium Claus from the X Men.
Speaker 2: It's also the University of Michigan mascot.
Speaker 3: Yes, on the edge of our We're just gonna throw
Speaker 3: them out.
Speaker 2: Let either one of you answer. Here we go number
Speaker 2: number six. You guys have gotten five out of six,
Speaker 2: so you're in good shape. A colorful easter candy. The
Speaker 2: easter bunny might leave for you a colorful candy. The
Speaker 2: Easter bunny might leave for you.
Speaker 4: A clean jelly.
Speaker 2: You got it, Bertha, well done, all right. Question number
Speaker 2: seven two left a method of execution that arose during
Speaker 2: the French Revolution. The last time one was used and
Speaker 2: was in France in nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 6: I got it.
Speaker 2: Nice job, last one, all right. Former star of Two
Speaker 2: and a Half Men, brother to Emilio Estevez.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, it's got a dad named Martin.
Speaker 2: Oh clean, yes, clean, Charlie Sheen, I don't think really exists.
Speaker 2: So it's a mythical creature.
Speaker 1: So how many do they? How many they get right, mango?
Speaker 3: So they got seven out of eight and of course
Speaker 3: that means they win the big prize, which is a
Speaker 3: note to your mom or or boss written from us,
Speaker 3: which is, you know, finally the validation you've been looking for.
Speaker 6: Wow, what a great prize. Congratulations guys.
Speaker 2: So we're talking about the question how clean is too clean?
Speaker 2: And before the break we were discussing how a little
Speaker 2: more dirt in our lives might.
Speaker 1: Be a key to healthier life.
Speaker 2: But for anyone who heard that and decided to start
Speaker 2: licking the floor, pull yourself together, it's a little more
Speaker 2: complicated than that.
Speaker 3: Although it is a little of that right, Like one
Speaker 3: of the things I'm fascinated by is that we ingest
Speaker 3: fifty to sixty milligrams of soil a day, and that
Speaker 3: little bit of dirt might be helping us be healthier.
Speaker 3: Like scientists also think playing quote social sports can help
Speaker 3: and will I know, we like to have debates about
Speaker 3: what a sport is, like is Badman really a sport?
Speaker 1: Please don't get me started on.
Speaker 3: I know you have some super strong feelings, but what's
Speaker 3: important here is where we're getting our daily bacteria from
Speaker 3: could actually play a big role in.
Speaker 2: Our health, right, I mean, the reality is some bacteria
Speaker 2: are good, some are bad. So it's more about understanding
Speaker 2: our dun' da da microbiome. Now you're probably wondering what
Speaker 2: a microbiome is, and for the super condensed version, let's
Speaker 2: turn to our microbiome correspondent.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's you. You're you're a microbiome correspondent. Mang
Speaker 1: oh congratulations. All right, okay, talk to.
Speaker 3: Meuch and honor, I can talk to microbiomes, so let's
Speaker 3: stuff to ak asecon We humans like to think of
Speaker 3: ourselves as individuals, right, like we've got big egos. But
Speaker 3: the truth is there are as many non human cells
Speaker 3: in our body as human cells, and because they're all
Speaker 3: working with us, playing a vital role in our body's
Speaker 3: success in some ways, it's more important to think of
Speaker 3: your body like a super organism, almost like a colony
Speaker 3: of ants all working together, or even a slime mold,
Speaker 3: like all pulling in one direction. H. I know it's gross, right,
Speaker 3: but that analogy doesn't even go far enough. In fact,
Speaker 3: your body's more like a rainforest, and each of the
Speaker 3: thousands of bacterial species inside you is precisely built for
Speaker 3: a specific environment. Like the bacteria in your stomach would
Speaker 3: die if it moved to your small intestine, and the
Speaker 3: small intestine stuff.
Speaker 2: Would struggle if it was placed.
Speaker 3: In the big intestine. Like, it's actually that complicated. As
Speaker 3: one of my science writer friends told me, humans are
Speaker 3: more closely related to C squirts than these microbacteria are
Speaker 3: to one another.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And another way to think about how diverse your
Speaker 3: body is is to like take a look at your
Speaker 3: left hand and your right hand. Your hands feel like
Speaker 3: they should be the same, right, Yeah, but of the
Speaker 3: thousands of bacteria on there, your left hand and right
Speaker 3: hand might only share one in six microbial species.
Speaker 2: Like how bizarre is that?
Speaker 1: That is pretty crazy?
Speaker 3: Right, So scientists are isolating these microbes and understanding their superpowers.
Speaker 3: They're also considering how to hack the bacteria and use
Speaker 3: it to human advantage. Like in Sweden, doctors at a
Speaker 3: hospital noticed that their pneumonia patients were getting infections from
Speaker 3: feeding tubes, and the patients were having a harsh reaction
Speaker 3: to the antibacterial sprays. So the doctors looked at this
Speaker 3: bacteria in your saliva called lacto basilius plantarrum, and it's
Speaker 3: this probiotic that helps you break down food in your saliva.
Speaker 3: And when they spread the culture inside their patient's mounts
Speaker 3: and on the feeding tubes, it actually stopped the infections
Speaker 3: like no side effects.
Speaker 1: That's incredible.
Speaker 3: So scientists have been using the Human Microbiome Project to
Speaker 3: crack the code and map out all of our microbiota.
Speaker 2: Well, one crazy thing about microbiomes is that scientists used
Speaker 2: to think that how they were born might affect it,
Speaker 2: like c sections in particular, they thought might be creating
Speaker 2: a different type and perhaps less healthy baby than straight
Speaker 2: vaginal deliveries. But it turns out that isn't true. I
Speaker 2: mean it's true initially, but by six weeks the differences
Speaker 2: aren't even detectable, which is pretty crazy because.
Speaker 1: Kids aren't crawling around then.
Speaker 2: But the colonies just grow so fast in the mouth
Speaker 2: and on the skin and then the gut that they
Speaker 2: don't need that much exposure to grow these distinct colonies
Speaker 2: all over their bodies.
Speaker 3: I know, I think of toddlers being dirty, but not
Speaker 3: really babies, dirty babies set.
Speaker 2: But the lesson is, in general, it's healthiest to have
Speaker 2: a wider range of microbes. So it's not quite true
Speaker 2: to say that getting more infections as a child.
Speaker 1: Makes us healthier later.
Speaker 2: It's really the exposure to different bacteria, and almost exclusively
Speaker 2: exposure at a very early age. I mean we're talking
Speaker 2: before the age of three. That's when it's pretty much set.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, as my mom used to say,
Speaker 2: once your microbiome is set, your microbiome is set. She's right,
Speaker 2: you got to set in forget it like a firm,
Speaker 2: like a yeah, or permanent, as my grandfather would say.
Speaker 1: People still get perms? Is is that a thing they will? Now?
Speaker 2: So that means the bad news for all those who
Speaker 2: were excited to start skipping your chores and stop washing
Speaker 2: your hands and bathing. It doesn't mean you should stop
Speaker 2: doing any of those things.
Speaker 3: Well one sure, I mean I've read a bunch of
Speaker 3: these reports and they all said the same thing, don't
Speaker 3: make your bed?
Speaker 2: What And can I tell you one thing?
Speaker 1: Sure?
Speaker 3: I hate this advice so much, like making my bed
Speaker 3: is the one thing I do. It makes my room
Speaker 3: look orderly. But even though I hate seeing this. An
Speaker 3: unmade bed is healthier because it exposes the dust mites
Speaker 3: in your bed sheets to sunlight and fresh air, which
Speaker 3: you know kills them off and helps your allergies.
Speaker 2: Oh man, the kids are going to really love this episode,
Speaker 2: So don't bother making your bed. I'm behind that. But
Speaker 2: where should we be cutting back?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Here are a few places antibacterial soaps. I mean, we've
Speaker 2: been seeing for a couple of decades now that when
Speaker 2: we kill too much of the good bacteria, the undesirable
Speaker 2: bacteria developing resistance to antibiotics, which could be dangerous. Also,
Speaker 2: clean products indoor pollution from all the cleaning supplies and
Speaker 2: chemicals in them. The most harmful ones are often the
Speaker 2: ones being used just to produce a good smell.
Speaker 1: So instead you.
Speaker 2: Should clean with things like vinegar and other products that
Speaker 2: you'd feel comfortable cooking with.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I was actually looking into this because my
Speaker 3: family tries to use mostly organic cleaning products for our
Speaker 3: kid's sake, And when I was googling what you can
Speaker 3: do to reduce the chemical sense in your home, one
Speaker 3: of the things that comes up is a list of
Speaker 3: recommendations from NASA. From NASA, Yeah, I just learned this.
Speaker 3: But every year in NASA issues a list of the
Speaker 3: best plants to help purify your home.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 3: And they've been doing clear air studies since the eighties
Speaker 3: because the agency wants to know what's the best way
Speaker 3: to clean the air and space stations. So this list
Speaker 3: of preferred plants has things like the peace lily, which
Speaker 3: can eliminate traces of formaldehyde and benzene and ammonia. But
Speaker 3: it's also toxic to dogs, which is kind of a
Speaker 3: big trade off, right, like peace dogs between clear air
Speaker 3: and this plant.
Speaker 2: It's all plant.
Speaker 3: But the crazier thing to me is this record inundation
Speaker 3: on the ideal number of plants you should have in
Speaker 3: your house. And can you guess what it is?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Four it's one plant for one hundred square feet. Like
Speaker 3: I live in a tiny, super small apartment with a
Speaker 3: wife and two kids, and now I have to share
Speaker 3: it with a tiny forest, like just to breed the air.
Speaker 1: I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Speaker 2: That's so speaking of our homes and finding that perfect
Speaker 2: balance of clean Penny Sarchet describes as science approved hygiene
Speaker 2: sweet spot, So that is you're not looking to completely
Speaker 2: sterilize your home. It's more about focusing on getting rid
Speaker 2: of harmful bacteria in places. This bacteria is most likely
Speaker 2: to be in places we come into contact with, so
Speaker 2: kitchen surfaces, doorknobs, bathroom light switches. But as long as
Speaker 2: we're talking about Penny, what do you say we get
Speaker 2: her on the phone and give her a little quiz
Speaker 2: and that sounds great? All right? So we've been talking
Speaker 2: about new scientists a lot and how much we love
Speaker 2: new scientists. And you know how excited I have, I
Speaker 2: hope because we have a biomedical news editor joining us today,
Speaker 2: Penny Sarche. She's going to talk to us about her
Speaker 2: article and a few other questions that we have, but
Speaker 2: also to play one of your ridiculous games. She may
Speaker 2: regret this visit. What's the game we're going to be playing.
Speaker 2: It's some not so dirty words. Okay, all right, Well
Speaker 2: we'll find out more about that in a bit, but Penny,
Speaker 2: welcome to Part Time Genius.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for writing the story and for joining us.
Speaker 2: I do have to start up by asking you about
Speaker 2: this quote that, to be honest, kind of made me
Speaker 2: feel nauseous when I read it. So you were talking
Speaker 2: about a twenty fourteen paper that found that children are
Speaker 2: less likely to develop asthma or precursors dasma. I guess
Speaker 2: you said in their first year if they're exposed to
Speaker 2: particles from cats, mice, and cockroaches.
Speaker 1: I mean, what do we do about this, Penny?
Speaker 4: I know it's really grim, isn't it. I think the
Speaker 4: difficult thing is you can measure these things and find
Speaker 4: me associations, but working out like the cuisation and what
Speaker 4: that actually means is a cockroach particle food for a child,
Speaker 4: It's an entirely different experiment and one that you're not
Speaker 4: ever going to do so I wouldn't aim to have
Speaker 4: a sealthy home, but I think the best way to
Speaker 4: see that kind of thing is more an indication that
Speaker 4: it's not as simple as let's just be dirty or
Speaker 4: let's just be clean. And I think some of the
Speaker 4: further research that I did after coming across that paper
Speaker 4: kind of suggested that these things, like the fact that
Speaker 4: you were exposed to cat hair, also meant you were
Speaker 4: probably exposed to other things related to the cat. So
Speaker 4: it might not have been the cat hair or even
Speaker 4: the cat peces that you may have come into contact
Speaker 4: with it's the fact that the cat might have been
Speaker 4: bringing soil into your home, for example, and perhaps some
Speaker 4: of the bacterian soil are really good for preventing asma
Speaker 4: and young infants. But it's just it came out as
Speaker 4: this quite disgusting correlation in the study.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad to know that it's not necessarily the
Speaker 2: cat feces that you said.
Speaker 1: That's like that to you.
Speaker 3: So, Kenny, I, I thought you did a really nice
Speaker 3: job of describing a clean sweet spot in your article,
Speaker 3: and I was so curious if you could just describe
Speaker 3: that for our listeners a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's's quite helpful for me too. So it's basically
Speaker 4: almost like a priority system. So you should really focus
Speaker 4: on being clean at the most important sites and places
Speaker 4: in your home and at the most important times, and
Speaker 4: that stops you from spreading infection and getting sick. But
Speaker 4: it also means you're not spending your entire life needlessly
Speaker 4: cleaning your home from top to bottom. So the place
Speaker 4: has been talking about you know, taking a kitchen surfaces
Speaker 4: and cooking, but also in touch points, so light switch
Speaker 4: is door or like taps as well, just things that
Speaker 4: you touch a lot and you might pass things on
Speaker 4: to who you're living with. And then in terms of times,
Speaker 4: it's obviously when you go to the bathroom and when
Speaker 4: you're cooking and when you're eating, but also if someone's
Speaker 4: sick in the house, you might want to sort of
Speaker 4: unpup how clean you are and how often you've clean
Speaker 4: down these touch points, because if someone in your family
Speaker 4: has neurovirus and is throwing up regularly, you're obviously at
Speaker 4: a much higher risk of spreading things around the home
Speaker 4: and the family. Then say, you know you've got a
Speaker 4: clean bill of health and no one's obviously ill.
Speaker 2: The whole study around the microbiome is just so fascinating,
Speaker 2: and it feels like we're still so early and understanding
Speaker 2: the microbiome. What kinds of things are you guys thinking
Speaker 2: about at new scientists right now, or things you think
Speaker 2: will be able to better treat as we as we'd
Speaker 2: better understand the microbiome.
Speaker 4: Well, so it's so difficult to note because there's just
Speaker 4: endless conditions that seem to be linked in some way
Speaker 4: to the microbiome, like everything from Alzheimer's to obesity, and
Speaker 4: we're still really only sort of unraveling those links and
Speaker 4: we're still quite a long way from working out how
Speaker 4: usefully we can use this, but there haven't stopped lots
Speaker 4: of people from already developing like sprays and treatments and
Speaker 4: all kinds of things you can buy online to kind
Speaker 4: of change the bacteria in your skin or in your gut,
Speaker 4: and we don't really know whether those work yet and
Speaker 4: if so, how there are a few things we know,
Speaker 4: so in some places, fecal transplant, so that really is
Speaker 4: just a transplant of poo is allowed or has been
Speaker 4: approved as a treatment for seed difficiles, which is a
Speaker 4: bacterial infection that is really difficult to get rid of
Speaker 4: once you've got it. So that's kind of that's quite
Speaker 4: a landmark in that respect that it's actually been used.
Speaker 4: There's a treatment there, But there are people out there
Speaker 4: who are just going ahead and doing transplants of pooh
Speaker 4: themselves in an unregulated way. And from some kinds of
Speaker 4: studies like this, there are kind of early ancdotes and
Speaker 4: warning signs that this is obviously much more complex than
Speaker 4: we really know yet, because there's so many species of
Speaker 4: bacteria and we don't know what they're doing. So there's
Speaker 4: some evidence that maybe if you were to receive a
Speaker 4: transplant from someone you is a beef, that might actually
Speaker 4: make you more likely to become a beef. And these
Speaker 4: kinds of interesting effects that start happening when you play
Speaker 4: around with your microbiome. So, yeah, it's really dunny days.
Speaker 4: And the other thing we don't really know is beyond
Speaker 4: something drastic, like if people transplant, can you really even
Speaker 4: change your microbiome beyond the age of about three. Maybe
Speaker 4: you obviously go through a lot of changes the first
Speaker 4: few years of life, but once your body has been
Speaker 4: colonized by whichever bacteria come on in, can you really
Speaker 4: kind of shift it much more in a healthier or
Speaker 4: less healthy direction. We don't really know that yet.
Speaker 3: You know what one thing I was curious about was
Speaker 3: whether your behavior has changed since working on this article, Like,
Speaker 3: when was the last time you washed your hands?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm still a fan of washing my hands. I
Speaker 4: did to the toilet before speaking to you, so they're
Speaker 4: very keen right now. But yeah, hands watching, I haven't changed.
Speaker 4: I was hoping actually for an excuse to wash my
Speaker 4: hands left being a clean freak, but actually speaking into
Speaker 4: the food hygiene and home hygiene experts who were telling
Speaker 4: me about how many people get food poisoning in their
Speaker 4: homes every year. That actually gave me no excuse to
Speaker 4: cut back at all. But we've got a garden flat
Speaker 4: that we're in and out all the time with bikes
Speaker 4: and plants and things, and so much of what I'm
Speaker 4: speaking to some of the people about soil and dirt
Speaker 4: and just being outside. I'm a lot more relaxed now.
Speaker 4: If we kind of walk soil in, just sweep it
Speaker 4: off and don't need to kind of really thoroughly clean
Speaker 4: the floor or anything like that. I think the only
Speaker 4: thing there that would be really worrying was if we
Speaker 4: had a baby that was cooling around and licking the floor.
Speaker 4: If a well to you, that would be slightly worrying.
Speaker 4: But that's not what I do.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, thank you for talking about how to
Speaker 2: be clean, and we want to put you to the
Speaker 2: test if you're willing to stick around and play a
Speaker 2: game of what did you say?
Speaker 3: The game was called it's called not So Dirty Words,
Speaker 3: and it's a game we expressly wrote for you since
Speaker 3: you're a clean expert.
Speaker 1: Here's how it works.
Speaker 2: We're going to take one word that sounds dirty and
Speaker 2: give you two definitions and all you have to do
Speaker 2: is tell us which one is the real one?
Speaker 1: Does that make sense?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right, here we go. Word number one
Speaker 2: is formication. That's not with an N but an M
Speaker 2: as in Michael. Formication. Does it mean A A sensation
Speaker 2: like insects crawling on your skin or b the word
Speaker 2: veterinarians use for the tartar build up on a goat's teeth. Formication.
Speaker 4: That's a tough one. I think I'm gonna go with
Speaker 4: formication insects because of maybe.
Speaker 2: You are absolutely right, right, she's all also an insects expert.
Speaker 2: All right, this is a good one. Number two, this
Speaker 2: is where did you find these?
Speaker 1: Mano? This is ridiculous? Okay? All right? Number two? Did
Speaker 1: you make this up? Is this a real thing?
Speaker 2: Okay? Turtis Maximus?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: Is Turtis Maximus a broad shield volcano that forms in
Speaker 2: the middle of oceanic plates or the Latin name for
Speaker 2: the Tibetan blackbird found in the Himalayas and Pakistan. Turtis maximus.
Speaker 2: Is it a volcano or a blackbird?
Speaker 4: Oh? I like to think if it was a bear
Speaker 4: it would sound more familiar. Although I can't remember what
Speaker 4: blackbird is right now, I'm going to go with the volcano.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's actually the blackbird.
Speaker 2: It's a member of the thrush family. Oh, of course,
Speaker 2: if we had just given her that hand said it
Speaker 2: was a member of the thrush family, nailed it. So
Speaker 2: number three, Our soul spelled a R s O l
Speaker 2: e is our soul a Hawaiian term for meat harvested
Speaker 2: from the tender coconut or B A ring shaped arsenic
Speaker 2: based organic compound. Is it a word for the meat
Speaker 2: harvested from the tender coconut or a ring shaped arsenic
Speaker 2: based organic compound.
Speaker 4: I can't tell if it's a red herring or not,
Speaker 4: but surely.
Speaker 2: Yes, you're right, well done, Okay, let's do I'm just
Speaker 2: having too much fun.
Speaker 1: Let's let's keep going, all right.
Speaker 2: The next one fart lick f A R T l
Speaker 2: e K. You can use these words in your articles
Speaker 2: in the future, by the way, Penny, you have our permission. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're good ones, all right? Is A fart lick a
Speaker 2: Swedish method for training distance runners by varying pace and terrain,
Speaker 2: or b a small species of antelope closely related to
Speaker 2: the dictic. I'm gonna oh, the heart.
Speaker 3: Sound like they should be related, right, but it's actually
Speaker 3: a Swedish distance training.
Speaker 1: She needs to get three correct to win the big prize.
Speaker 2: So let's do one more sack butt s A C
Speaker 2: K hyphen butt?
Speaker 1: You do all right? Here we go?
Speaker 2: Is it a the fourteenth century ancestor of the modern trombones,
Speaker 2: sometimes called a sag butt or b a Viking table
Speaker 2: used for formal banquets.
Speaker 4: It is definitely, well you did.
Speaker 1: What does she want, mango?
Speaker 3: Well, she's ellegible for our top prize, which is our
Speaker 3: endless admiration.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, congratulations Penny. Well, Penny, keep up the
Speaker 2: great work. We remain huge fans of new scientists. Thanks
Speaker 2: so much for joining us, and we hope to talk
Speaker 2: to you again.
Speaker 4: Thanks very much. She was my pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thanks by Welcome back to part time Genius.
Speaker 1: So before the break, Penny Sarchet.
Speaker 2: Was chatting about the hygiene sweet spot, that is, keeping
Speaker 2: your house clean but not too clean. It's kind of
Speaker 2: a Goldilocks approach exactly. Since I wanted to know what
Speaker 2: to watch out for, I got curious about the dirtiest places,
Speaker 2: and here are a few things I found so at home,
Speaker 2: the walls around your toilet.
Speaker 1: You know, you just kind of imagine it's the toilet,
Speaker 1: but it's actually around.
Speaker 2: Your toilet, the kitchen sponge, the kitchen sink drain, the
Speaker 2: cutting board is a really nasty one. That toothbrush cup
Speaker 2: where everybody keeps their toothbrushes. So some of these places
Speaker 2: that you don't immediately think about, and one of the
Speaker 2: huge ones the remote control. Now in hotels, two of
Speaker 2: the nastiest places are the remote control, which of course
Speaker 2: you'll no longer have to deal with thanks to our
Speaker 2: patented part time genius remote control condoms. You should see
Speaker 2: these on shelfs soon. And the bedside lamp switch. I
Speaker 2: never would have guessed the lamp switched me either. So
Speaker 2: what about airplanes? What do you think is consistently the
Speaker 2: dirtiest place on a plane?
Speaker 3: That a twisty thing you put to turn to put
Speaker 3: on the air or maybe the drinks page of the
Speaker 3: airline magazine.
Speaker 2: I'd say, yeah, that's a pretty specific page there, mega.
Speaker 1: And I'm guessing it's not clean.
Speaker 2: But the number one dirtiest thing in some studies by
Speaker 2: surprisingly significant margin, seems to be the tray table. What, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's discussing if you think about it, people are using
Speaker 2: it constantly, folding it up and it may not get clean.
Speaker 2: And let's get back to the idea of good bacteria.
Speaker 2: This is something we all hear more and more about
Speaker 2: these days because of probiotics, the four hundred varieties of
Speaker 2: yogurt in the grocery store. As a side note here, recently,
Speaker 2: I saw a list of the ways you can annoy
Speaker 2: people in your office and number one on that list
Speaker 2: of ways was to stand behind a co worker with
Speaker 2: a cup of that fruit on the bottom yogurt and
Speaker 2: just stir it out that sound alone. Yeah, do you
Speaker 2: make that list?
Speaker 1: I did make that list. I'm the author of that list.
Speaker 3: So there's definitely a lot to talk about with probiotics.
Speaker 3: And that's because the gut flora is really important. And
Speaker 3: it's important because it keeps you regular, like you don't
Speaker 3: want to be consumpated, right, But the thousand different bacteria
Speaker 3: in there also have a direct impact on your brain,
Speaker 3: and studies have shown strong links between anxiety, depression, even autism,
Speaker 3: and it's all linked to your gut flora.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: But and here's the important part. What you put in
Speaker 3: their matters. Like in twenty thirteen, the medical journal gastro
Speaker 3: Andrology published a paper where women ate yogurt twice a
Speaker 3: day and the probiotics changed the makeup of their gut
Speaker 3: flora and actually made them calmer and happier under stress tests.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating.
Speaker 2: Now, speaking of things we eat, it reminded me of
Speaker 2: what might be too clean. And I've got to tell you,
Speaker 2: I was thirty seven years old before I ever washed
Speaker 2: a banana.
Speaker 3: A banana, yep, why would you wash one?
Speaker 2: So one of my daughter's friends refuse to eat a
Speaker 2: banana from our house until I washed it because, as
Speaker 2: she said, my mom always washes my banana.
Speaker 3: Well, if you're recommending it, I guess we should. But
Speaker 3: let's answer the question of how clean is too clean.
Speaker 3: Obviously you should keep washing those hands and bananas, and
Speaker 3: pay attention to the dirty st areas of your house,
Speaker 3: the things we touch a lot, like the light switches
Speaker 3: and remote controls and cutting boards.
Speaker 2: But also, what's the best thing you can do to
Speaker 2: expose yourself to a wider variety of good bacteria. It's
Speaker 2: to spend more time outside, which, of course we're recommending
Speaker 2: from a room with no windows. I love it. Speaking
Speaker 2: of things I love. You know what time it is, Well, yep,
Speaker 2: it's time for the fact Off, where we share all
Speaker 2: the things we learned this week that we didn't get
Speaker 2: a chance to mention. But before we do that, we
Speaker 2: should probably give out our genius Award. Who do you
Speaker 2: think deserves that honor today?
Speaker 3: I think we've got to give it to miss Goldie Lipman,
Speaker 3: who came up with the idea of Gojo the pre purel.
Speaker 1: I agree.
Speaker 3: I mean she passed away in the seventies, but we're
Speaker 3: going to add her to our Hall of Genius and
Speaker 3: send the company a certificate that they could hang on
Speaker 3: their office blooden board. So congratulations Goldie.
Speaker 1: I'm for that.
Speaker 2: But back to the fact off, mangush, as we like
Speaker 2: to say, on the part of north central Alabama where
Speaker 2: I grew up. You first, So here's a fact for you.
Speaker 3: There's a guy named Jasper Lawrence who had severe allergies,
Speaker 3: like his eyes would swell up to the point where
Speaker 3: he couldn't see. He had intense trouble breathing, and he
Speaker 3: decided the only way he could get his boyer to
Speaker 3: stop attacking itself was to give it something to attack. So,
Speaker 3: and this is the part I love. He went to
Speaker 3: Cameroon and he intentionally walked around barefoot in areas where
Speaker 3: people went to the bathroom. Oh, I know, and the
Speaker 3: reason was to give himself hookworm. And then he started
Speaker 3: this internet business selling hookworms to relieve people with crohns
Speaker 3: and other autoimmune disorders, which may actually work, but comes
Speaker 3: with all sorts of FDA and postal service complications.
Speaker 2: I like to imagine the conversation where he's like, honey,
Speaker 2: I tried the flonase, it didn't work, so I'm going
Speaker 2: to move on to hookworms. So there's a psychologist from Cornell,
Speaker 2: David Pizarro, who studies the notion of disgust. And in
Speaker 2: one of his experiments, he had students fill out a
Speaker 2: survey on their political beliefs, and most of them were
Speaker 2: just filling out surveys in a crowded hallway. But then
Speaker 2: he relocated a few of the groups next to a
Speaker 2: hand sanitizer dispenser, and when he did, those groups reportedly
Speaker 2: came back more conservative. And he found this over and
Speaker 2: over in studies, whether it was signs about washing hands
Speaker 2: or sanitizer or the presence of handwipes. Wherever there was
Speaker 2: a subtle reminder of physical purity. It made a respondent
Speaker 2: more conservative than they might have otherwise been. That's crazy.
Speaker 2: So remember how we inhale fifty to sixty milligrams of
Speaker 2: dirt a day.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: So one of the things I love is that the
Speaker 3: Japanese government has been organizing these things called forest baths,
Speaker 3: that's what they're called. And forest bats are basically guided
Speaker 3: tours on destressing. A guide will teach you how to
Speaker 3: break open a twin of sassafras and inhale and appreciate
Speaker 3: nature and generally be more mindful. And part of it
Speaker 3: is just reminding people how easy it is to get
Speaker 3: in nature preserves. Yeah, but I kind of love this
Speaker 3: idea that if you're going to inhale fifty milligrams of
Speaker 3: dirt a day, let's pick where that dirt's coming from.
Speaker 2: Okay, I like that idea too. I've got another one here.
Speaker 2: IBM processed water. Have you heard of this? So one
Speaker 2: of the weird things is that instead of using solutions
Speaker 2: to clean their chips, IBM actually uses this ultra pure
Speaker 2: water that's what it's called. They process their water so
Speaker 2: many times, over fourteen times, that it has no specs
Speaker 2: of dirt or particles so that it doesn't scratch the chip.
Speaker 2: But the same thing that makes it great for cleaning
Speaker 2: also makes it harmful for the body. So like in
Speaker 2: its truest form, water will leach nutrients toward it from
Speaker 2: other substances. And so even though it's really really ultra pure,
Speaker 2: it's actually too clean to drink. Huh, Like drinking will
Speaker 2: actually hurt your body.
Speaker 1: That's crazy.
Speaker 2: So there's a great Sean Bradley story that I promise relates. Now,
Speaker 2: this is Sean Bradley, the basketball player.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so the escort I asked him what it
Speaker 3: feels like to be seven foot six, and you just
Speaker 3: generally feel miserable for the guy and his answers, like
Speaker 3: he can't buy normal clothes, he can't buy a regular
Speaker 3: sleeping bag, he can't buy a regular car. I mean,
Speaker 3: you realize this world is not fit for anyone his size.
Speaker 3: But the worst thing he said about being that tall
Speaker 3: is that when you're seven foot six, you're looking down
Speaker 3: on everything and everything is dirty. So you're seeing like
Speaker 3: ceiling fans and tops of fridges and lockers and everything's
Speaker 3: just gross. And as a short dude, that's not something
Speaker 3: i'd really ever think about.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I never thought about that at all. That's
Speaker 2: it must be really gross. So all right, pandas, let's
Speaker 2: talk about pandas. So pandas seem completely useless, right, They
Speaker 2: have a bacteria in their stomach that can reduce the
Speaker 2: mass and volume of garbage by ninety percent, which is
Speaker 2: great because anytime you don't want to take your trash out,
Speaker 2: you should be able to rent a pan at a
Speaker 2: squad on your rubber. It feels like another great business idea.
Speaker 1: I like it.
Speaker 3: So, speaking of what's too clean, the Mona Lisa has
Speaker 3: actually been cleaned too often. And you know, when you
Speaker 3: picture the Mona Lisa, you might remember she has almost
Speaker 3: non existent eyebrows and super light lashes. But that wasn't
Speaker 3: always the case, like she used to have thick brows,
Speaker 3: and art analysis actually showed that all that hair got
Speaker 3: thinned and trimmed over the years because the painting's been
Speaker 3: cleaned too much.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, that's a good one.
Speaker 2: I'm going to give it to you win the battle
Speaker 2: this time, but I'll be back with some wild tangents
Speaker 2: next time. That's it for today's part time genius. Thanks
Speaker 2: so much for listening. Thanks again for.
Speaker 1: Listening to Part Time Genius.
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Speaker 2: Part Time Genius is produced by some of our favorite geniuses.
Speaker 2: It's edited by Tristan McNeil, theme song and audio mixing
Speaker 2: by Noel Brown. Our executive producer is Jerry Rowland. Our
Speaker 2: research team is Gabeluzier, Lucas Adams, Autumn white Field Madrano,
Speaker 2: Austin Thompson, and Meg Robbins. Jason Hoak is our chief cheerleader.