Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Oh Hi Chelsea. Oh my god, I would
Speaker 1: a whirlwind. I love New York City so much. I
Speaker 1: just don't know if I can leave here. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm homeless right now anyway, So my house in la
Speaker 1: is still not ready, even though I'm going back there
Speaker 1: on Monday. I did my first two shows back at
Speaker 1: the Beacon in New York City, and they weren't fucking epic.
Speaker 2: In the middle of a river of water, right.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, there was a huge storm on
Speaker 1: the first show I had Friday night. They were like,
Speaker 1: do you want to cancel? And I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Once you cancel a show, it triggers so
Speaker 1: much else. So I was like, there's going to end
Speaker 1: up being more people that show up than people who
Speaker 1: can't come, you know. So we decided to just pull
Speaker 1: the trigger and do the show and it was awesome,
Speaker 1: and then Saturday Night's show was even more awesome. And
Speaker 1: I'm just so happy to be back on tour. I
Speaker 1: feel so rested. I feel like I had the vacation
Speaker 1: of a lifetime, a summer of a lifetime. I Mean,
Speaker 1: I just can't believe how fucking great my life is.
Speaker 1: And I'm just so grateful that I have so many
Speaker 1: people and fans that have given me this life because
Speaker 1: I just am in enjoying myself to the n degree.
Speaker 1: And I also feel like it's just time for me
Speaker 1: to move to New York City.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Liz, I have a second
Speaker 2: home there.
Speaker 1: I know, I never lived in New York City. I'm
Speaker 1: from New Jersey. I think it's time. And my business
Speaker 1: managers I told them, I go, I think I might
Speaker 1: want to move to New York soon, and they were like,
Speaker 1: your house in LA is not even done yet. And
Speaker 1: I was like, well, we're going to have to rent
Speaker 1: that out to someone or do something. But I'm just
Speaker 1: much more stimulated here and I just love it. Last night,
Speaker 1: I was just out at this simple restaurant with like
Speaker 1: five girlfriends, and I'm like, this is awesome. This is
Speaker 1: what I want my life to be like. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be in LA going to sleep at eight
Speaker 1: o'clock every night like an elderly woman. I want to
Speaker 1: live it up. It's time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have a lot of friends in New
Speaker 2: York too, so it's like pop by see people.
Speaker 1: I like making new friends too. I make friends wherever
Speaker 1: I go. I mean, I am just on fire with
Speaker 1: my new friendships, my old friendships and new friendships. But
Speaker 1: that's the one and great thing about traveling too and
Speaker 1: bopping around. There's so many people to meet and interesting
Speaker 1: people who add and contribute to your life and joyfulness
Speaker 1: and experience and point of view, and it's just all
Speaker 1: so interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially with as many places as you went this summer,
Speaker 2: I'm sure you got lots of different experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I dosed a lot of people capting this summer.
Speaker 1: I gave a lot of people microdosing of whatever I
Speaker 1: had excellent. I love, especially strangers. There was this old
Speaker 1: couple walking outside my house in MAYORCA, like a German couple,
Speaker 1: not old but older, and they were holding hands and
Speaker 1: we started talking. I don't know why, and they're like,
Speaker 1: it's our anniversary, our thirtieth anniversary. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you guys should take some microdose of LSD,
Speaker 1: Like I have a whole sheet of it, and you
Speaker 1: guys should do that. And they both looked at each
Speaker 1: other and they're like, we will. I go take one
Speaker 1: of my kayaks, take it out and put it, go
Speaker 1: right out there and go have a good night. I
Speaker 1: go just have fun with each other. And they came
Speaker 1: back four hours later. I was kind of like, are
Speaker 1: they still out there? And they came out and they
Speaker 1: left the kayak and they left this little note on
Speaker 1: the kayak and it was just the cutest thing. And
Speaker 1: so I just want to give drugs to everybody. And
Speaker 1: I know not everybody can do drugs, so I wanted
Speaker 1: to say that it's not for everybody, but there is
Speaker 1: something for almost everybody.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's kayaking on LSD.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's my favorite activity in my ARCHI I like
Speaker 1: to get up. One night, I got up from dinner.
Speaker 1: It was like nine thirty. I was like, I took
Speaker 1: my Mango dakery and I ran outside. I was like,
Speaker 1: it's time to get on a paddle board. And I
Speaker 1: went because if the water is because we live in
Speaker 1: this port and it's like I don't know who we are.
Speaker 1: I'm alone, a single woman. I live there with all
Speaker 1: the men that I have to hire to take care
Speaker 1: of me, which is also a great irony in my life.
Speaker 1: And I can go out there and paddle you know,
Speaker 1: it's so still and placid at night, and just going
Speaker 1: out there with my cocktail and my paddle board or
Speaker 1: my kayak. I'm like, I just look up at the
Speaker 1: stars and I'm like, oh God, I believe in you.
Speaker 1: I believe in you now. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2: Do to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've been there, you know. I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: figure out if it's too late to go to Antarctica.
Speaker 4: You've been everywhere else.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but it just feels like every
Speaker 1: time I have an opportunity to go there, it just
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's going to be I hate to
Speaker 1: say this, but luxurious. Like I want to be on
Speaker 1: a comfortable boat, and all these boats are like it's
Speaker 1: like an exploration and I'm not an explorer.
Speaker 2: No, those are some of the choppiest seas on the planet.
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with that. I have a
Speaker 1: problem with being comfortable, Like I want to be on
Speaker 1: a yacht, not an exploration boat, because they're bare bones
Speaker 1: and then you're living basically like sleeping on cement like
Speaker 1: a Maxi pad on top of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you have to have like an ice break.
Speaker 1: I'm like, do I care that much? Like I'd like
Speaker 1: to go, Oh god, I have these bruises on the
Speaker 1: back of my neck because Dennis Colonello, who has two
Speaker 1: meatballs for hands. My chiropractor, but he doesn't he doesn't
Speaker 1: crack me. He got into my neck so deeply yesterday
Speaker 1: because I have so much tension in my neck for
Speaker 1: my I have some slip disc in my neck and
Speaker 1: and I was washing my hair this morning in the
Speaker 1: shower and I was like ah ah, And then I
Speaker 1: texted him, I said, you know, you assaulted me.
Speaker 4: Yesterday in your bruise.
Speaker 1: But he's like that he's happy that he hurt me,
Speaker 1: because that's his kind of personality.
Speaker 2: Chiropractors, Okay, I feel like they it's not a popular profession.
Speaker 4: They're all a little.
Speaker 2: Weird, but like I feel like at some point they
Speaker 2: go two different directions. There's okay, i'll crack your back,
Speaker 2: make you feel better whatever, and the other direction they
Speaker 2: just go so wooo.
Speaker 4: It's like naughty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's pretty woo woo. But he doesn't ever crack me.
Speaker 1: He just realigns me. And it's very painful because I
Speaker 1: have a situation where I hold all my tension in
Speaker 1: my chest and neck like, so he gets in there.
Speaker 1: I mean he literally is like digging into my boobs.
Speaker 1: He puts a pad there yea to like try and
Speaker 1: pretend that it's not you know what it is in you,
Speaker 1: which is him basically feeling me up. So shout out
Speaker 1: to Dennis Colonello.
Speaker 4: Thanks Ennis.
Speaker 1: But I have a great chiropractor and whistler who cracks
Speaker 1: me because when I ski, my ribs pop out all
Speaker 1: the time, like this right ram bobbys pops out, and
Speaker 1: he cracks me all the time. His name is Keith,
Speaker 1: and he's a fucking awesome.
Speaker 4: I bet he gets a lot of business.
Speaker 1: Oh not only does I probably carry him through the
Speaker 1: whole year, because when my family comes up, we have
Speaker 1: Keith come every night at six before dinner, and everyone
Speaker 1: lines up and sits around and watches each other get cracked.
Speaker 1: He's like, God, I feel like I'm in like a theater.
Speaker 1: He goes, I can't, I'm performing for all of these people.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I know, but it's so good when
Speaker 1: you're out of whack to get cracked. Oh I love
Speaker 1: it when it rings through your whole body. I never
Speaker 1: cracked my neck because women there's danger in women cracking
Speaker 1: their neck really anyone, but more so for women. But
Speaker 1: I like sometimes for my hips to get adjusted because
Speaker 1: they get out of whack, you know. But yeah, one
Speaker 1: night we were all this is years ago, my whole
Speaker 1: family was like over Christmas, we're all up in Whistler
Speaker 1: and we're all so stoned. Everyone is as high as
Speaker 1: a kite, and so we were all just like watching him.
Speaker 1: We set him up in the living room and everyone's
Speaker 1: just like around watching him, drinking and just like staring
Speaker 1: at him. And I was like, God, he must think
Speaker 1: we are a one hot mess of a family. Did
Speaker 1: you explain why?
Speaker 4: Well, now, who cares?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Who cares?
Speaker 4: He's like these guys we're not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's better to be quiet and high than to
Speaker 1: be loud and obnoxious. Yeah, that's what I tell myself. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I saw Barry Manilow on my flight yesterday.
Speaker 4: You did, Yeah, how's he looking?
Speaker 1: Exactly the same, exactly the same. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you look like it's almost like he's frozen in time.
Speaker 4: And I'm glad Barry Mallows did great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he seems to be thriving. Maybe he was lying around, Yeah,
Speaker 1: lying around he was. He walked to the bathroom all
Speaker 1: by himself. That's when I noticed him.
Speaker 4: Did you know al Pacino as.
Speaker 1: Having a baby, a baby. I'm so sick of all
Speaker 1: of this grossness.
Speaker 4: And there's another one. It's al Pacino and de Niro.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, how fun for that baby.
Speaker 4: One of them is eighty three.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you would be one hundred and one when
Speaker 2: your kid graduated high school. If I'm doing my math correctly.
Speaker 1: Well, you don't need to make the math because he
Speaker 1: won't be there, so don't worry about it. It's really gross.
Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch has seven children or six or they all.
Speaker 1: Elon Musk has like fourteen.
Speaker 2: Elon Musk's dad just had a baby with his stepdaughter.
Speaker 4: What.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Elon Musk's dad had a baby with his step
Speaker 1: daughter and.
Speaker 4: It's a secret child. But it came out like.
Speaker 1: Well, that explains a little bit about Elon.
Speaker 4: Musk, I know, like it's got a little weird, weird
Speaker 4: shit going on.
Speaker 1: Well that family.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, actually I think they just had their second
Speaker 2: child together. I think that's what just came out recently.
Speaker 2: It's pretty on that note.
Speaker 1: What do you think is worse a stepdaughter or your
Speaker 1: adopted daughter Like Woody Allen and his daughter Sunny, they
Speaker 1: just keep having babies, in my opinion, to prove that
Speaker 1: they were really meant to be all along. Meanwhile you're like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you were meant not.
Speaker 5: To be No.
Speaker 1: Our next guest, I've been following on social media for
Speaker 1: a while because she is an advocate for not having
Speaker 1: children as well. I don't know if you know that
Speaker 1: about me, but I don't want children, So I've been
Speaker 1: following her and then I saw I got her book,
Speaker 1: which was called Women Without Kids, and I thought, hm,
Speaker 1: we may have something to talk about. Please welcome Ruby Warrington.
Speaker 1: Good morning, good afternoon. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Speaker 1: Point us, no chairs.
Speaker 5: I am in Miami.
Speaker 1: Oh you are?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 1: Are you hanging out with Ron DeSantis?
Speaker 6: Absolutely?
Speaker 5: He invited me for dinner this weekend.
Speaker 1: Oh that's fun. I hope there's a bunch of drag
Speaker 1: queens and transgender people there totally so that they can
Speaker 1: enjoy his presence as well.
Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me on, guys. I'm so excited.
Speaker 3: Yes are we?
Speaker 1: As are we? I received your book Women Without Kids,
Speaker 1: and obviously we have that in common.
Speaker 6: We do.
Speaker 1: So talk to us. Talk to us about how you
Speaker 1: came to that decision. Talk to us about the book,
Speaker 1: about everything, your stance on being child free.
Speaker 5: Well, I think that I was born this way. Honestly,
Speaker 5: That's kind of where I've landed now. I've actually recently
Speaker 5: started using the term a reproductive to describe how I
Speaker 5: feel about having children, kind of like asexual, as in
Speaker 5: like no desire to engage with the reproductive element of
Speaker 5: my sexuality. Right, That's a term that I only came
Speaker 5: up with more recently. But honestly, I feel like I
Speaker 5: was born this way, you know, I just never had
Speaker 5: a desire to have a child. This was something that
Speaker 5: was questioned intensely throughout my twenties and thirties, to the
Speaker 5: extent that I questioned it in myself, like why don't
Speaker 5: I want to do this thing? Am I sure? I
Speaker 5: don't want to do this thing? Will I regret not
Speaker 5: doing this thing? And then I got to my early
Speaker 5: forties and I honestly was looking ahead to menopause, and
Speaker 5: I realized I was quite excited actually about what might
Speaker 5: lie on the other side of this kind of monthly
Speaker 5: hormonal roller coaster. And within that realized, no, I have
Speaker 5: no regrets about not having had a child. There is
Speaker 5: not one minute of panic kind of sounding in my
Speaker 5: book body at this moment, like this was always the
Speaker 5: right path for me. And how fortunate I am to
Speaker 5: have been born in a country and in an era
Speaker 5: where I actually got to make the choice not to
Speaker 5: have a child, and I actually got to really live
Speaker 5: true to myself, you know. And so I wanted to
Speaker 5: write this book because it felt like the path of
Speaker 5: non motherhood, no matter how a person finds themselves, there
Speaker 5: is still so stigmatized. It's still seen as so other,
Speaker 5: so unusual. People get so many questions about it. And
Speaker 5: actually the statistics will show that women without kids are
Speaker 5: rising in numbers dramatically all around the world and happier
Speaker 5: and often happier and richer, richer.
Speaker 1: There was a study that came out that said men
Speaker 1: who are married are the happiest men, women who are
Speaker 1: single are the happiest women.
Speaker 5: Right, there are all of these kind of contradictions between
Speaker 5: our actual lived experiences as women without kids and what
Speaker 5: the society tells us our life are supposed to be. Like,
Speaker 5: so I wanted to write the book to first and
Speaker 5: foremost just validate the path of non motherhood, like again,
Speaker 5: no matter whether it's by choice, by circumstance, not by choice.
Speaker 5: Because a lot of people who've tried and failed to
Speaker 5: have kids even there failed right like they see themselves
Speaker 5: or they're often told that, like you just you failed
Speaker 5: at this important thing, this most important thing. But beyond that,
Speaker 5: you know, the statistics will show that the birth rate
Speaker 5: is actually decreasing massively in every single country around the world.
Speaker 5: The number one reason this is happening is because women
Speaker 5: are getting more access to education, more access to financial freedom,
Speaker 5: and more empowerment basically. And yet there are plenty of
Speaker 5: forces who do not see this as a good thing,
Speaker 5: who would really prefer for women to continue having lots
Speaker 5: of children, to keep boosting the birth rate and essentially
Speaker 5: keep our economy kind of ticking on as it is.
Speaker 5: And a lot of the time, the quote unquote blame
Speaker 5: for the falling birth rates is put very squarely at
Speaker 5: the feet of silly, selfish women who are choosing to
Speaker 5: do other things with their lives then have kids. And
Speaker 5: so it just felt like this really juicy area to
Speaker 5: dive into in book format.
Speaker 1: And what has the response been for you with other women?
Speaker 5: I've been getting just countless DM, so many women who
Speaker 5: reflect back to me what I so often felt I
Speaker 5: thought I was the only one. Thank you, so much
Speaker 5: for showing me that I'm not a weirder, I'm not
Speaker 5: a freak. I haven't failed. Thank you for giving me
Speaker 5: so many different ways to think about why I don't
Speaker 5: want to be a mother, or even why I'm questioning
Speaker 5: if that is right for me. So just a real
Speaker 5: sense of solidarity and support and people feeling seen and
Speaker 5: understood when they're reading the book. Of course, there has
Speaker 5: also been you know, the occasional this book is poison,
Speaker 5: you ridiculous, selfish person. You're going to regret this when
Speaker 5: you're old, Like I kind of expected. I actually expected
Speaker 5: more of those sorts of comments actually, but yeah, there
Speaker 5: have been a few of those as well.
Speaker 1: I get a lot of backlash, a lot of backlash
Speaker 1: from men, conservative men. While I live in a Marria,
Speaker 1: so we have you know, this is a hot mess
Speaker 1: situation and a hot button topic here because men would
Speaker 1: like to force us to have children here in this country.
Speaker 1: So the backlash from women mostly it's supportive from women
Speaker 1: and especially mothers are like, yeah, to each his own,
Speaker 1: you know, why would you ever force this on somebody else?
Speaker 1: But when I do get these messages from mothers going
Speaker 1: you're such a sad person or they comment on my posts.
Speaker 1: You're such a sad person, Chelsea. You're so sad and
Speaker 1: you're just covering it up with humor, and you're gonna
Speaker 1: be miserable. You're gonna die alone. I'm like, I hope
Speaker 1: I do die alone. I don't want to die with
Speaker 1: a bunch of other people. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: You're gonna die alone? You think the reason to have
Speaker 1: a child is so that you don't die alone. I
Speaker 1: don't want anyone dealing with my death. I want to
Speaker 1: be shut and just put down or whatever. Like if
Speaker 1: I'm sick, shoot me and bury me, or actually light
Speaker 1: me on fire and cremate me, whatever's best for the environment,
Speaker 1: because I think cremating is bad. Now they can liquefy
Speaker 1: your body I heard recently, right, But anyway, those aren't
Speaker 1: the reasons. And to speak to the main issue that
Speaker 1: everyone brings up, which is in a more loving way,
Speaker 1: is you're going to miss out on the most beautiful
Speaker 1: love of your life. It is the most transcendent. You
Speaker 1: can't describe how somebody feels when they give birth to
Speaker 1: a baby and the love that they feel. Of course
Speaker 1: I believe that to be true, but I'm okay with that,
Speaker 1: and if I'm okay with missing out on that kind
Speaker 1: of love. Just like some people will never have pets,
Speaker 1: some people will never experience that kind of love. And
Speaker 1: that's not the same as a kid, but for some people,
Speaker 1: that's even better than a kid. The most common thing
Speaker 1: that I hear among mothers is no one said it
Speaker 1: was going to be this hard. No one said it
Speaker 1: was going to be this hard.
Speaker 5: I hear that all the time, and I'm like, are
Speaker 5: you kidding me? Literally, everyone always talks about how it is.
Speaker 6: All I ever hear is this is really hard, This
Speaker 6: is so hard.
Speaker 5: And then everyone I know who becomes a mom is like,
Speaker 5: no one tells you how hard this is going to be.
Speaker 5: I'm like, what if you've been what channel have you
Speaker 5: been listening?
Speaker 1: I think there is an overwhelming chorus of people talking
Speaker 1: about how beautiful it is, how one wonderful it is.
Speaker 1: They don't say, hey, you're going to be up for
Speaker 1: the first six months of their lives fifteen times a
Speaker 1: night or whatever it is three times a night. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm exaggerating breastfeeding, or that you're beholden that you
Speaker 1: have no life for six months. People talk about it,
Speaker 1: but the overwhelming chorus is one of positivity rather than
Speaker 1: of negativity.
Speaker 5: I think, and I do actually think that the physical experience.
Speaker 5: You can read all that stuff and you can hear
Speaker 5: about it, but then the physical experience and I think,
Speaker 5: actually what a lot of women find really hard, especially
Speaker 5: women who have grown up with a degree of agency
Speaker 5: and freedom to kind of live our lives on our
Speaker 5: own terms thanks to the different waves of the feminist movement,
Speaker 5: becoming a mother means say goodbye to all of that.
Speaker 5: So it kind of means a loss. It actually means
Speaker 5: a loss of privilege in a way. If freedom, autonomy,
Speaker 5: self authorship, bodily sovereignty, these are privileges which have been
Speaker 5: fought for by the feminist movement. Women of Gen X
Speaker 5: Millennials gen zs were the first generations of women to
Speaker 5: really kind of experience that in our lives, and so
Speaker 5: of course, becoming a mother means a loss of so
Speaker 5: many of those privileges, privilege which used to be only
Speaker 5: applied to men. And so I think that it's actually
Speaker 5: maybe even harder to weigh up the kind of sacrifices
Speaker 5: and responsibilities of becoming a mother against the kind of
Speaker 5: freedoms that we now have the opportunity to go after
Speaker 5: in our lives. So I think that's something that when
Speaker 5: I get that kind of feedback, it often does feel
Speaker 5: like a projection. I think that can be quite a
Speaker 5: envy in those kind of comments as well. Maybe if
Speaker 5: someone is feeling a bit like I don't enjoy this
Speaker 5: nearly as much as I should do, or the love
Speaker 5: actually doesn't make up for all the sacrifices, but they're
Speaker 5: not allowed to say.
Speaker 1: That, Or you don't feel the love that everyone's telling
Speaker 1: you you're going to feel, you don't feel that you
Speaker 1: experience a terrible case of postpartum, or you don't feel
Speaker 1: that connection to your baby that everyone tells you you're
Speaker 1: supposed to feel, and then you feel like something's wrong
Speaker 1: with you, and then you feel like it's a whole
Speaker 1: game of shame. Also, parenting, you feel like you never
Speaker 1: know that you're doing the right thing. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is the feedback I've heard and books I've read, like
Speaker 1: you never know what you're doing, you know if if
Speaker 1: you're doing the right thing, and the idea that every
Speaker 1: woman is supposed to have a baby isn't taking into
Speaker 1: account the baby you're supposed to have a baby, and
Speaker 1: then and then the baby suffers because you're not prepared
Speaker 1: or interested in the way that like, it is such
Speaker 1: a thoughtful process to come to the conclusion that it's
Speaker 1: not for you. It should be such a thoughtful process
Speaker 1: to come to the conclusion that it is. There are
Speaker 1: so many women that talk about I don't know if
Speaker 1: I want one, but I'm gonna freeze my eggs and
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. It's like, if you
Speaker 1: don't know, then maybe you don't. You don't, then you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have a kid. You have to be one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty percent on board with having a child, not
Speaker 1: be like I have these eggs, I guess you know
Speaker 1: what I'm gonna I'm gonna be forty. I'm gonna just try.
Speaker 1: I think that is just so such a mistake for
Speaker 1: so many people.
Speaker 5: And that's why I wanted to write this book to
Speaker 5: say it's it's different, and it's equally valid not to
Speaker 5: be a parent, because that doorway has been so closed off,
Speaker 5: because it's been so stigmatized, Like if you don't become
Speaker 5: a parent, especially actually if you don't become a mother,
Speaker 5: because I don't think supplies to men in the same way.
Speaker 5: If you don't become a mother, you have missed out.
Speaker 5: You will be unfulfilled, you are cold heartless. You are
Speaker 5: going to miss out on this most transcendent, most important,
Speaker 5: deepest love that you can ever feel. You're going to
Speaker 5: regret it, and you will die lonely, destitute and alone.
Speaker 5: And so when all of that stigma exists, that door
Speaker 5: to non motherhood is closed off. So for anyone who's
Speaker 5: questioning it, even if they have really serious doubts about
Speaker 5: their parental readiness, like their capacity to be a parent,
Speaker 5: it's going to be so much easier just to go, Ah,
Speaker 5: I guess I'll just do it anyway, or I guess
Speaker 5: I'll just go along with it, because I guess I
Speaker 5: don't want to be labeled with all of that stuff,
Speaker 5: or I don't want to take the risk on, you know,
Speaker 5: being this lonely old spinster. Although, like you say, Chelsea,
Speaker 5: ultimately we all die alone, right, no one's going with us,
Speaker 5: No one's like holding our hand crossing us over to
Speaker 5: the other side. And there's also no guarantee that our
Speaker 5: kids are going to be that our kids could well die.
Speaker 6: Before we do.
Speaker 5: And also statistically, this was so sad when I read this.
Speaker 5: Sixty percent of people living in old people's homes don't
Speaker 5: receive any visitors. There's no guarantee you're going to have
Speaker 5: the kind of relationship with your kids where you want
Speaker 5: them all to be, or they all want to be
Speaker 5: at your bedside, kind of like seeing you off, you know,
Speaker 5: onto the next dimension. So part of the point of
Speaker 5: the book, and I've had so many moms read it
Speaker 5: and actually feel really grateful or expressible gratitude for making
Speaker 5: them feel less like defectible, less like they've failed, if
Speaker 5: they're actually not enjoying being a mum, or if they
Speaker 5: actually sometimes want to still be the woman they are
Speaker 5: without their kids, you know. But a big part of
Speaker 5: the book was just about saying, Hey, this is the
Speaker 5: most important decision you can ever make. It's one of
Speaker 5: the only decisions you can't unmake. So know yourself, know
Speaker 5: your capacity, know your choices, and act accordingly.
Speaker 1: No your partner, and know whether or not I just
Speaker 1: was talking to a girlfriend last night. She has three kids,
Speaker 1: she's in an unhappy marriage, she's been married for almost
Speaker 1: twenty years, and she's stuck. She's getting ready to make
Speaker 1: a move, but she has stayed in this unhappiness because
Speaker 1: of her children, And that in it of itself, is like, Hello,
Speaker 1: you don't know what the commitment is until you have
Speaker 1: those children. And then so many women find themselves in
Speaker 1: a situation where it's not a fifty to fifty parenting situation,
Speaker 1: where the women are fucking doing everything, and not only
Speaker 1: are the men not contributing in an equal manner, they
Speaker 1: don't even appreciate all the work that their wife has
Speaker 1: done to raise these children until they separate and then realize,
Speaker 1: oh shit, oh fuck. I mean, I can't tell you
Speaker 1: how many of my girlfriends have left their husbands who
Speaker 1: didn't appreciate them, didn't value what they did in their
Speaker 1: child's lives. Now they're divorced and they have no fucking
Speaker 1: idea what to do with these kids because they've never
Speaker 1: had to do it. And so there's that element on
Speaker 1: top of it. So not only can children, you know,
Speaker 1: trap you into being a parent, which is the idea,
Speaker 1: you can get trapped in other ways by being a parent,
Speaker 1: which you're not even thinking about. You're not thinking your
Speaker 1: husband's not going to be a good father or a
Speaker 1: good husband or whatever. So there's just there's so much
Speaker 1: landscape to actually consider before making that decision. I know,
Speaker 1: when you have a husband, I mean, then there's women
Speaker 1: who have children to save their marriages, which is the
Speaker 1: dumbest thing you could possibly do. I had a girlfriend
Speaker 1: once to say, like, if you have problems in your marriage,
Speaker 1: children will only intensify those problems. They're not going to
Speaker 1: solve your problem.
Speaker 5: Because children just add stress. They add financial stress, they
Speaker 5: add stress in terms of your time, stress in terms
Speaker 5: of the equality balance in the marriage. Like, yeah, there's
Speaker 5: going to be ideally like some fun times and a
Speaker 5: lot of love, but what you're guaranteed is actually quite
Speaker 5: a lot of stress. And one thing I realized about
Speaker 5: myself is that I have quite a low capacity for stress.
Speaker 1: I also have a low capacity for stress.
Speaker 6: I would like to say I am low capacity for stress.
Speaker 5: I'm like I can get really easily overwhelmed, Like if
Speaker 5: I have too many things in my calendar, I spin out.
Speaker 5: I don't know if it's ADHD or what. I haven't
Speaker 5: ever had a diagnosis like that, but I spin out
Speaker 5: really quickly, and I get very overwhelmed with deadlines and
Speaker 5: having to kind of switch hats too many times during
Speaker 5: a day, and that's basically parenthood. From what I can see,
Speaker 5: parenthood is going from one thing to the other, with
Speaker 5: multiple different people going through different situations in each day. So,
Speaker 5: like knowing about myself, how overwhelmed I get with that
Speaker 5: kind of lifestyle. I know that parenthood would likely not
Speaker 5: bring out the best side of me, let's say, and
Speaker 5: that that stress would then be transferred to my kids
Speaker 5: and it just would be kind of a shit show.
Speaker 1: So I agree with that statement. It would not bring
Speaker 1: out the best side of me.
Speaker 4: Such a good way to put it.
Speaker 1: I also want to just say, this is a conversation
Speaker 1: about child free women, and you know, and obviously anyone
Speaker 1: who follows me on Instagram knows how I make these
Speaker 1: PSAs about, you know, the wonders and joys of a
Speaker 1: child free existence. Nothing I do is to shame women
Speaker 1: for having children, And what I'm trying to do is
Speaker 1: celebrate women who choose not to have children because they
Speaker 1: don't have enough representation. Nobody is telling women, yes, you
Speaker 1: can be whatever you want. I mean, there are some,
Speaker 1: but that's not the overarching theme in the society we
Speaker 1: live in. It's when are you getting married and when
Speaker 1: are you having children. So with the joy and experiences
Speaker 1: that I've had in my life without having to done
Speaker 1: either of those things, I feel it is my purpose
Speaker 1: to represent to the women who have either chosen not
Speaker 1: to have children or haven't been able to have children,
Speaker 1: that there is joyfulness and happiness to be found in
Speaker 1: a panoply of other ways in our society and in life.
Speaker 1: So I want to make sure women know that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you want to have a child, of course, go
Speaker 1: have a baby. I'm not mad at you. I want
Speaker 1: everyone to feel empowered, every woman to know that the
Speaker 1: decision is yours to make, and if you don't choose
Speaker 1: to have children, there is nothing unvaluable about you. And
Speaker 1: on that note, we are going to take a quick
Speaker 1: break and we'll be right back. And we are back
Speaker 1: with Ruby Warrington, author of Women Without Kids. Oh Ruby,
Speaker 1: also sober Curious? What the fuck? What is that curious about? Sobriety?
Speaker 6: Yes, so sober Curious.
Speaker 5: This is my last book.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 5: I had always been an enthusiastic social drinker, shall we say,
Speaker 5: And I got to my mid thirties and I started
Speaker 5: getting the feeling that alcohol might actually be a cause
Speaker 5: of some of the anxiety and depression and difficulties that
Speaker 5: I was experiencing at the time, But my drinking didn't
Speaker 5: really look like problem drinking. It didn't look like alcoholic drinking.
Speaker 5: I went to a couple of AA meetings, didn't really
Speaker 5: see my story reflected there. But I knew that I
Speaker 5: wanted to make a change, and so I came up
Speaker 5: with this term sober curious that was kind of less judgmental,
Speaker 5: a bit more open minded, and would give me permission
Speaker 5: to just ask some of my questions about alcohol, like
Speaker 5: am I drinking too much? How much is too much?
Speaker 5: Why is there so much pressure to drink? Why are
Speaker 5: there so few decent alcohol free options on every menu everywhere?
Speaker 5: Like all of these questions, right, And so that became
Speaker 5: a bit of a movement in a way. I started
Speaker 5: hosting events in New York which were immediately hugely popular,
Speaker 5: and then I had a book on the subject come
Speaker 5: out at the very end of twenty eighteen. And that
Speaker 5: term has really taken and I think it's been embraced
Speaker 5: by a lot of normal social drinkers who've had maybe
Speaker 5: one too many horrific hangovers and actually really want to
Speaker 5: make a change to their drinking. But without having to
Speaker 5: give themselves the label of I'm an alcoholic or subscribe
Speaker 5: to a kind of a program for recovery. You know,
Speaker 5: but so you drink, I don't anymore. And I now
Speaker 5: have got to a place where alcohol actually just doesn't
Speaker 5: I just don't enjoy it at all. And this has
Speaker 5: been over like ten years of experimentation and questioning and
Speaker 5: experiencing longer and longer periods of abstinence, trying it in
Speaker 5: certain situations, and just getting to a point where I'm like, actually, no,
Speaker 5: it just makes me feel shit, Like even if I
Speaker 5: get a few minutes of pleasure, which now actually feels
Speaker 5: more like just numbness, the after effects are typically just
Speaker 5: so horrible, even just from a glass of wine, like
Speaker 5: my sleep is really badly impacted, my anxieties up, Like
Speaker 5: it's just I don't enjoy it. But I've got there
Speaker 5: from a place of choice, Like I've got there because
Speaker 5: I decided that's not right for me, and I don't
Speaker 5: want that in my life anymore, not because I in
Speaker 5: a program that was telling me I was an alcoholic
Speaker 5: and that if I ever picked up another drink, I
Speaker 5: was gonna die. Basically, so it's just a more forgiving
Speaker 5: more open ended approach to addressing or drinking by no
Speaker 5: means is everyone who gets sober curious completely abstinent from alcohol,
Speaker 5: but it's really for you might have heard the term
Speaker 5: great area drinkers some people, people who kind of fall
Speaker 5: in between just like can take it or leave it
Speaker 5: and never really think about it to more kind of
Speaker 5: like extreme alcoholism. There's a lot of people in that
Speaker 5: great area drinking category who like abuse alcohol sometimes, who
Speaker 5: sometimes can't control themselves, who sometimes drink more than they
Speaker 5: know is good for them, and so the sober curious
Speaker 5: approach really appeals to them.
Speaker 1: I think as you get older too, I guess maybe
Speaker 1: if you're not an addict. I don't know. As I
Speaker 1: get older, like I like to drink, but at a
Speaker 1: certain point it's not fun. Like I don't like to
Speaker 1: be drunk like I used to, right, I like to
Speaker 1: be a bused. I don't like to be drunk. So
Speaker 1: at a certain age you just kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'll have a drink before I go on stage,
Speaker 1: and then when I get off, it's like I don't
Speaker 1: want to have another drink, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Then I want to like have an edible or something
Speaker 1: my whole physiological response to alcohol has changed. But I
Speaker 1: guess that's probably not fair to say, because I probably
Speaker 1: am not an addict. And so if you're listening and
Speaker 1: you're like, well, wait that, I know it's different for everybody,
Speaker 1: So that doesn't naturally happen as you get older. Some
Speaker 1: people who are addicted to alcohol, it could get worse
Speaker 1: as you get older, and then you know, it just
Speaker 1: continues to get worse, which is more typical. I would say, right, okay, Catherine.
Speaker 2: Well with that, let's jump to our first caller, who
Speaker 2: is sort of on this journey of sobriety. She may
Speaker 2: be a little bit more on the spectrum of needing
Speaker 2: to be a sober person, So just going into it
Speaker 2: with that in mind. But Ashley says, I'm a forty
Speaker 2: one year old nutrition counselor, lesbian and self proclaimed eternal
Speaker 2: student that has been in recovery from alcohol for the
Speaker 2: last six years. About seventy percent of that time I've
Speaker 2: been able to say sober. A relapse is almost always
Speaker 2: triggered by overwhelm or burnout, and never for a good time.
Speaker 2: When I'm in captain recovery mode, I dive into meetings documentaries, books, workshops, retreats, podcasts,
Speaker 2: and any and all things regarding neuroscience and addiction. I've
Speaker 2: taught recovery groups, I've led meetings. I've recently put myself
Speaker 2: on antibuse. I feel it's important to add I do
Speaker 2: not adhere to any higher power. There has been much
Speaker 2: lost and much put at risk due to this constant
Speaker 2: tug of war. I've lost a special partner and bailed
Speaker 2: on some major life events, weddings, funerals, even Chelsea's Netflix
Speaker 2: special taping here in Nashville. Because I put myself into
Speaker 2: a treatment center. I gave the tickets away to some
Speaker 2: very happy sober friends. I'm just got sick over it all.
Speaker 2: Visiting California a while back, a friend of three decades
Speaker 2: said to me, out of the blue, Ashley, you've lost
Speaker 2: your fight.
Speaker 4: Who are you?
Speaker 2: That really hit me more than any therapy session I suppose.
Speaker 2: I'm writing to you now for more of the same.
Speaker 2: I'd love to get your take, respectfully, Ashley.
Speaker 1: Hi, Ashley, Hi, Ashley O.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: This is our special guest, Ruby Warrington. Today. She wrote
Speaker 1: the book Sober Curious and also Women with our Kids.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about sobriety for this.
Speaker 7: Car excellent familiar?
Speaker 5: Yes, oh good, well thanks for your No, it sounds familiar.
Speaker 5: And what I mean is I've heard this from many
Speaker 5: individuals like this is it's a good It's a roller coaster, right,
Speaker 5: it can take us in so many different directions, and
Speaker 5: just when we feel like we're really getting ahead of it,
Speaker 5: there it comes here it is again, and I'm back
Speaker 5: here again? And how did I get back here again?
Speaker 5: And I know how frustrating and tiring and disheartening that
Speaker 5: can be. I mean, I think there was one thing
Speaker 5: in your letter that really really stood out to me,
Speaker 5: and this is something that the sober Curious approach is
Speaker 5: really very much about, and so many recovery programs too.
Speaker 5: But when you said that you're drinking or your relapses
Speaker 5: are triggered always by getting to a place of despair, overwhelmed,
Speaker 5: just you know, doing too much stress, anxiety, etc. That's
Speaker 5: such such useful information, it seems to me.
Speaker 6: And it seems like you do yoga.
Speaker 5: You're you know, you're obviously looking after your mental health
Speaker 5: and well being as well, but really like being very
Speaker 5: focused on that piece, like what are the life situations
Speaker 5: and the circumstances that typically bring me into that place
Speaker 5: of overwhelm where I know I'm going to be vulnerable
Speaker 5: then and reach for that familiar medicator in those circumstances
Speaker 5: that to me would be the really key thing to
Speaker 5: be working on and looking at, literally, what are the
Speaker 5: situations that bring me to that place, and how can
Speaker 5: I work on ensuring that I encounter as few of
Speaker 5: those situations and put myself in as few risky situations
Speaker 5: with alcohol therefore as possible, which obviously is sometimes easier
Speaker 5: said than done, because a lot of those stresses can
Speaker 5: be external things that we don't have much control over.
Speaker 7: When I wrote that letter, I was I was in
Speaker 7: a state of despair. I was two weeks sober, and
Speaker 7: now I realized that I was in the beginning of
Speaker 7: a mid life crisis. This month life crisis. I was
Speaker 7: in a very antidonic state. I was joyless. And what
Speaker 7: I've had to do is really be isolative and sort
Speaker 7: of create this crystalis around me currently.
Speaker 1: First of all, nice vocabulary, four solid words right there.
Speaker 6: I love it.
Speaker 7: I've just had to sit with it, and it's fucking uncomfortable.
Speaker 7: It's been painful. Like I said, I've lost a lot,
Speaker 7: but I feel like something Hash shifted and you hear
Speaker 7: that a lot in the recovery community. With me, something
Speaker 7: hash shifted in the last couple of months, and I'm
Speaker 7: having trouble articulating it. However, it's monumental. This chrysalis is monumental,
Speaker 7: and I still struggle with. My initial question was how
Speaker 7: do you harness that inner bad astery when you feel
Speaker 7: inept and I don't feel capable. I have like a
Speaker 7: debilitating inadequacy, like an undeserving feeling. I don't deserve a
Speaker 7: seat at the table. That's why I'm struggling with the most.
Speaker 1: And do you feel this shift that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: this wrestle list happening that's in your life? Is this
Speaker 1: in the positive way?
Speaker 7: Yes, there's no frills to it. Like I said, it's
Speaker 7: been really isolating, and in the recovery world they sort
Speaker 7: of that's not what they encourage you to do. But
Speaker 7: I've had to do it. I've had to do this alone,
Speaker 7: this leg of it, and I feel a little bit
Speaker 7: lighter than when I initially wrote in I have some clarity,
Speaker 7: and I guess the big thing is I trust myself
Speaker 7: and I've never been able to say that, but I
Speaker 7: still struggle with the inadequacy.
Speaker 5: And again that can be such a trigger to why
Speaker 5: do I feel this way? Okay, this is a little
Speaker 5: bit left field. I feel like on this show I
Speaker 5: can mention this. I'm also really into astrology, and I
Speaker 5: don't know if you follow for your into astrology at
Speaker 5: all now a little okay, So there is I actually
Speaker 5: call it the astro life crisis. Between the ages of
Speaker 5: about thirty nine, thirty eight, thirty nine and around forty five,
Speaker 5: there are a series of very very tense astrological transits
Speaker 5: that every person experiences. They're the kinds of life experiences
Speaker 5: or that bring up the kind of life experiences and
Speaker 5: psychological transitions where we can literally feel like all of
Speaker 5: the illusions we've been operating under are shattered. Everything we
Speaker 5: thought we knew about our life is not correct. You're nodding, Okay,
Speaker 5: you're relating to some of this. And for me having
Speaker 5: astrology is at aol, and particularly being able to maybe
Speaker 5: take my birth chart to a talented astrologer and have
Speaker 5: them kind of map out what transits I'm being impacted
Speaker 5: by can be really helpful because it gives some meaning
Speaker 5: or like there's something I'm going through. I'm not being
Speaker 5: asked to look at some of this stuff for a reason.
Speaker 5: And best of all, astrological transits always passed, so that
Speaker 5: this too will pass is very kind of clear when
Speaker 5: you apply the astrological lens. It's like, Yeah, you might
Speaker 5: be having a really intense like Urinus transit which is
Speaker 5: making you feel like your whole life has been turned
Speaker 5: upside down, and there's some stuff for you to look at.
Speaker 5: It's happening for you for a reason, and it's going
Speaker 5: to pass, but you're going to come out the other
Speaker 5: side of it. So I don't know, I just want
Speaker 5: to offer that to you as an additional tool. I
Speaker 5: guess potentially you know, understanding that you're interested in these
Speaker 5: more kind of esogetetic subjects, it might be something that
Speaker 5: could be helpful. And I also agree, like I'm an
Speaker 5: introvert and i'm very insula and the typical recovery stuff
Speaker 5: about like don't be in isolation that's never really served
Speaker 5: me either. I charge up and I find so much
Speaker 5: more self awareness and comfort in giving myself enough time alone, right,
Speaker 5: enough time to actually sit with my feelings, let my
Speaker 5: body process stuff through, like just kind of slob out, honestly,
Speaker 5: and so I think, don't beat yourself up about feeling
Speaker 5: like you're drawn to more alone time and that recovery
Speaker 5: kind of message in your head going no, that's unhealthy,
Speaker 5: that's dangerous. Give yourself what you need. It sounds like
Speaker 5: you've been giving yourself some really good emotional self care
Speaker 5: with that thank you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's an element of PTSD from being so saturated
Speaker 7: in the recovery world for so long. You know, the
Speaker 7: health Step foundation is built on powerlessness, and you know,
Speaker 7: accepting or admitting that your life is unmannered. Well, I'm capable,
Speaker 7: I know I am, but that that voice is so huge.
Speaker 1: I also think it's important that program works for millions
Speaker 1: of people, But that program isn't the only way to,
Speaker 1: you know, to quit something for an attic to quit,
Speaker 1: because it's kind of putting it on the line each day,
Speaker 1: like I'm sober today, Tomorrow is the next day.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: The whole kind of mantra of AA is like I'm
Speaker 1: here today, I'm sober today, I'm making this decision today,
Speaker 1: which makes it like you have to make the decision
Speaker 1: almost every single day, whereas if you make a decision
Speaker 1: to quit something that this isn't serving you in your life.
Speaker 1: You know, midlife crises. B Rene Brown puts it down perfectly.
Speaker 1: She's like, we call it a midlife crisis because whatever
Speaker 1: trauma that we've endured comes and sneaks back up on
Speaker 1: us by the time we hit forty and all of
Speaker 1: your armor, everything kind of falls away because then you're
Speaker 1: forced to face your demons. And that's what you're doing.
Speaker 1: You're facing your demons because it's time for a new
Speaker 1: child in your life. And this isolatory behavior that you're
Speaker 1: talking about is totally fine. Whatever the fuck you need
Speaker 1: is fine. You could be I mean, do you know
Speaker 1: how much value there is in spending time by yourself.
Speaker 1: I've had some of the best times of my life alone,
Speaker 1: Like that cannot be understated. You know, seeing friends is
Speaker 1: also beneficial for your health and your emotional health.
Speaker 4: And all of that.
Speaker 1: But you can totally take breaks from people and totally
Speaker 1: say I'm working on myself right now. You know, do meditation,
Speaker 1: get into yourself, spiritually, connect with your inner voice. Understand
Speaker 1: why you have a problem with alcohol in the first place.
Speaker 1: That's the issue, you know, not necessarily the alcohol itself
Speaker 1: that you're using as a band aid. You have to
Speaker 1: reveal and release your trauma with a therapist, with yourself,
Speaker 1: you know, with journaling, with writing, with reading books on
Speaker 1: people who've experienced this and come out of it, like
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what steps you take to get there,
Speaker 1: and don't think you have to follow the format of
Speaker 1: alcoholics anonymous. There's you can make your own format and
Speaker 1: we're all capable of that. And you just said this yourself.
Speaker 1: You are capable of it. You're strong enough. We all are.
Speaker 1: When I went to get hypnotized for smoking, like he's like, okay,
Speaker 1: this is the mantra. If you have a desire, it's
Speaker 1: not an option. It's not an option. I don't smoke anymore.
Speaker 1: I'm done. That's like a little thing that he gave me.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I am done. I know it's bad
Speaker 1: for me. I know why I was doing it. I
Speaker 1: over abused it, so now I have to give it up. Sorry,
Speaker 1: you know, like whoopsie doodle. You abuse something and now
Speaker 1: you have to give it up. The rewards are going
Speaker 1: to be so much greater in your life for going
Speaker 1: through this period of time that you're going through and
Speaker 1: for taking like the bull by the horns. And just
Speaker 1: because your journey happened to have some like slip ups
Speaker 1: or you know, you fell off the wagon. I don't
Speaker 1: like the way that's defined by alcoholics anonymous either. So
Speaker 1: that's part of your journey you did that. There's no
Speaker 1: self immolation necessary. That's okay. Hey, you fucked up. Hopefully
Speaker 1: it won't happen again. But if it does, you're not
Speaker 1: gonna beerate yourself. But you're definitely never going to become
Speaker 1: the kind of drinker that you were before.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I all relapses reminds you learn something with every
Speaker 5: time that it comes back, that you're there again, and
Speaker 5: like you become stronger every time you listen and pay
Speaker 5: attention and act on what you've learned from each of those.
Speaker 5: So yeah, and also Chelsea picked up on that you
Speaker 5: said it, I am capable, I can do this. How
Speaker 5: dare they tell me I'm not? That is the inner
Speaker 5: badass that you've been thinking you don't have, Like there
Speaker 5: she is right there, you know, I.
Speaker 1: Think Also, you know we always are just like we
Speaker 1: have all these constructs that everyone's telling us about. You
Speaker 1: can forge your own path. You're strong enough, you're smart enough,
Speaker 1: like you're you can define what your life is going
Speaker 1: to look like moving forward. And what I would just
Speaker 1: deter you from is this judgment that you are putting
Speaker 1: on yourself, because no one wants that for you, especially you.
Speaker 1: You don't need it. You don't need to be judging yourself.
Speaker 1: You're living an authentic life. So you've struggled with alcoholism
Speaker 1: or addiction or however you want to frame it. So
Speaker 1: has have hundreds of millions of people and much worse.
Speaker 1: So it's not something that has to define your life.
Speaker 1: It's just part of your life.
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned a chrysalis, but when I think
Speaker 2: about a chrystalist, I also think of emerging.
Speaker 4: And I think you're gonna know.
Speaker 2: When is the right time to sort of like come
Speaker 2: out of your chrystalist and be around your friends again,
Speaker 2: whether that's your AA friends or other friends, and enter
Speaker 2: the world again.
Speaker 4: But I think the point here is you will emerge.
Speaker 1: As a butterfly. Yes, thank you all, You're welcome.
Speaker 7: Thanks for digging deep with Menis I appreciate you all?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate you. Ashley, thank you here.
Speaker 2: I Oh, that smile is worth everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an example of a caller who's almost almost
Speaker 1: gotten to where she's going and just needed in one
Speaker 1: more push in the right direction because she's already there.
Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions in a different vein here.
Speaker 2: Our next question comes from Jay Dear Chelsea, I'd like
Speaker 2: to start off by thanking you for always being an
Speaker 2: advocate for women who have chosen not to have children.
Speaker 4: You make me feel.
Speaker 2: Validated and seen and heard in a world dominated by
Speaker 2: a society that continues to value women becoming mothers over
Speaker 2: women prioritizing themselves. I'm almost thirty, successful and live in
Speaker 2: a mid sized coastal town in the South. I do
Speaker 2: the majority of my dating through HINGE, and I'm genuinely
Speaker 2: looking for a long term relationship. I've always known that
Speaker 2: I never wanted to be a mother and have ended
Speaker 2: a relationship in the past because of this. Here comes
Speaker 2: the part I need advice about. For the past year
Speaker 2: or so, I've been bringing this topic up on the
Speaker 2: first date. I hate having my time wasted and give
Speaker 2: the same respect to others, so I typically start by
Speaker 2: asking do you want children? So far, the answer is
Speaker 2: always yes. I wonder if they think that's what I
Speaker 2: want to hear, if it's a cultural thing since I'm
Speaker 2: in the South and having children is as normal as breathing,
Speaker 2: or if it has to do with their age. The
Speaker 2: average age for men I'm dating is around thirty five.
Speaker 2: But since I know I'm not changing my mind about this,
Speaker 2: I would never expect someone else to. Is it possible
Speaker 2: I'm putting too much weight on this topic. I hate
Speaker 2: the idea of being the woman that a man dates
Speaker 2: before they eventually decide to go and find the mother
Speaker 2: of their children. And I refuse to believe that because
Speaker 2: I don't want children, then it means I have to
Speaker 2: be single forever. Do you have any advice on dating
Speaker 2: in my position or a different way to go about it?
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Chelsea Jay.
Speaker 1: I think it's better to be upfront before you go
Speaker 1: on the date then, I mean to speak to your
Speaker 1: experience when you're talking to the guys and going just
Speaker 1: so you know, Like, I've been on a lot of
Speaker 1: dates and it's been an issue. It's come up a
Speaker 1: lot of times that I'm meeting men who want children
Speaker 1: and I'm not interested in that, So I just want
Speaker 1: to get that out of the way. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: pretty like an aggressive way to go about it. But
Speaker 1: if you don't even want to waste your time with
Speaker 1: a first date where you can kind of collect that
Speaker 1: information and you want to get to the bottom of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, then that's what you should do. You should
Speaker 1: just preemptively be like just so you know, Like, I know,
Speaker 1: we're only going on a first date, so I don't
Speaker 1: want to sound crazy, but I don't want children, and
Speaker 1: I've been out with a lot of guys and that's
Speaker 1: a deal breaker. So I just want to see if
Speaker 1: you want kids, Like, maybe we should skip it. You
Speaker 1: could just be upfront like that. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the more natural thing to do is to go on
Speaker 1: a date and have the conversation then, but if you
Speaker 1: are sick of that, then this is a good way
Speaker 1: to avoid having that happen again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe it's ticket right on your profile, like not
Speaker 2: interested in having kids?
Speaker 4: Would you do that?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I think they should have they should have that as
Speaker 5: a category, right. I think it would be really really
Speaker 5: helpful because ultimately a lot of people are going on
Speaker 5: dating apps to meet somebody to potentially do that with,
Speaker 5: and so if you're not into that, I think it
Speaker 5: would be really helpful if the apps themselves had a
Speaker 5: category like what is your what's your stance on this?
Speaker 1: You know, or put a picture of a baby up
Speaker 1: on your profile app and with a cross, like a
Speaker 1: big X over it.
Speaker 5: That's a good way to let people know perfect. But
Speaker 5: can I say one other thing on this? There was
Speaker 5: a question as well about like why is it why
Speaker 5: do all these guys say that they definitely want to
Speaker 5: have kids, And I honestly think because it is the
Speaker 5: faults to want to be a parent, Like we're kind
Speaker 5: of living in this culture, which is very what they
Speaker 5: call pro natalist, like parents are seen as more valid
Speaker 5: than non parents. It's just like the normal thing to do.
Speaker 5: I think that a lot of the time when guys
Speaker 5: are saying that, it's just reflective of the fact that
Speaker 5: having kids and becoming a parent is seen more as
Speaker 5: like a woman's issue. It's something that we are taught
Speaker 5: to think about since we first having sex, since we
Speaker 5: first get our period, as in like, don't get pregnant,
Speaker 5: be careful, you don't get pregnant until you're such and
Speaker 5: such age and until you've met the right person.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: So we're kind of like indoctrinated with this, not indoctrinated,
Speaker 5: but we're encouraged to really think about it from a
Speaker 5: very early age, and I just don't think And I
Speaker 5: think that shines the light actually on how much more
Speaker 5: education there needs to be for men in terms of
Speaker 5: like the responsibilities of parenthood and do you know what
Speaker 5: it actually means to be a father? And you know, so,
Speaker 5: I just think it's kind of interesting that you've got
Speaker 5: all these guys who are immediately saying, yeah, I want
Speaker 5: to be a dad, and it just makes me question
Speaker 5: if they've really thought about what that actually would mean
Speaker 5: for their lives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean surprised to even
Speaker 1: hear men say yeah, we want kids, we want kids
Speaker 1: like usually I would. I think they'd be open to
Speaker 1: not having them since they don't do anything.
Speaker 2: Our next caller is Krinn Krinne says, through doing the
Speaker 2: work in counseling, I'm realizing that marriage isn't really what
Speaker 2: I want for myself anymore.
Speaker 4: Same can be said about kids.
Speaker 2: I'm realizing that I'm absolutely happy being a cool and
Speaker 2: loving aunt to my nieces and nephews. I know that
Speaker 2: you can relate to all of this, which is why
Speaker 2: I need your help. Where are all the thirty somethings
Speaker 2: single and child free people at I ask because two
Speaker 2: more of my closest friends are expecting their first baby,
Speaker 2: one shortly after the other. While I'm thrilled that this
Speaker 2: is where their journey has led them, it's not the
Speaker 2: same for me. And as excited as I am that
Speaker 2: I get to have two more munchkins to spoil my
Speaker 2: group of friends that I can text last minute to
Speaker 2: see if they want to get away for the weekend
Speaker 2: is quickly dwindling. So some have suggested the app meetup,
Speaker 2: which I have but still feels a liffy. What would
Speaker 2: you suggest to help me connect more with this community?
Speaker 1: Karin Hikerin hiker In Hello, Hello, Oh.
Speaker 3: Here, I'm here, yay.
Speaker 2: And I should mention that Krin is a teacher, which
Speaker 2: is great birth control. I am sure she just jetted
Speaker 2: out from class.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 8: Yes, Yes, it's a Yes, it is birth control, but
Speaker 8: it's also I do love it.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's nice, that's great.
Speaker 2: And our guest is Ruby Warrington, who wrote the book
Speaker 2: Women Without Kids, so she is perfect for her questions.
Speaker 3: Oh hello Ruby, perfect.
Speaker 5: Yes, the subtitle lift my book is the Revolutionary Rise
Speaker 5: of an Unsung Sisterhood, and that piece unsung sisterhood speaks
Speaker 5: to this exact thing you're talking about so often when
Speaker 5: you decide you don't want to have children, and it
Speaker 5: feels like I'm the only one. More I realized the
Speaker 5: more I started talking about it, asking people about it,
Speaker 5: looking on social media for other people who felt the
Speaker 5: same way, I was like, Oh, there's so many of us.
Speaker 5: We just don't have anything to kind of like show
Speaker 5: that we're women without kids, because what we have in
Speaker 5: common is the lack of a child, right, And there
Speaker 5: aren't like after school groups for us or meet up
Speaker 5: groups for us. Like there's so much stuff that brings
Speaker 5: mums together to find other mums, but for women without kids,
Speaker 5: there isn't that same thing. And what I wanted one
Speaker 5: of the things I wanted to do with the book
Speaker 5: was to kind of start to unite us, even just
Speaker 5: by having more people go hey, me over here, and
Speaker 5: what about me over here, and like what do we need?
Speaker 5: What kind of stuff would we like to do together?
Speaker 5: Like I can totally imagine a future where there are
Speaker 5: child free holiday vacation companies, and I don't know all
Speaker 5: sorts of things that actually cater to specifically to child
Speaker 5: free people. I did actually go on one of the
Speaker 5: Virgin cruises over Christmas this year, and they are child
Speaker 5: free cruises. Oh okay, Well, everybody on board didn't have
Speaker 5: their kids with them, and I'm assuming that a fair
Speaker 5: number of them probably don't have children. So the other
Speaker 5: thing you might be interested to know, as much as
Speaker 5: it can feel like with our only ones in our groups,
Speaker 5: I think it's like almost fifty percent of women age
Speaker 5: seventeen to forty five in the US do not have children.
Speaker 5: So actually there are far more of us out there
Speaker 5: than you think. It might just take a little bit
Speaker 5: of looking around to find people, you know. I'm hosting
Speaker 5: a women without Kids retreat, like an in person retreat
Speaker 5: at Cropola and Massachusetts in the middle of June, for
Speaker 5: the express purpose of kind of giving people an opportunity
Speaker 5: to meet each other. But social media is a great
Speaker 5: place to find this plenty of kind of like child
Speaker 5: ree influences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, only where to start, you know.
Speaker 8: And like I said, I'm very happy that they're having kids,
Speaker 8: but my group of friends to hang out with is
Speaker 8: just really dwindling. I've noticed that the communication between us
Speaker 8: is definitely at a blow because I'm just connecting differently
Speaker 8: than they are.
Speaker 3: And which makes sense.
Speaker 8: You know, their kids are having friends, they're getting older,
Speaker 8: they're getting more involved, so less need for me in
Speaker 8: their life. But at the same time, it's like, but
Speaker 8: I'm still part of their life. So unless it's for
Speaker 8: a sporting game or a holiday or a birthday, there's
Speaker 8: not too much for me to you know, hang around
Speaker 8: with them.
Speaker 3: So where do I start?
Speaker 1: Like, you know, go on my Instagram page and look
Speaker 1: at all the comments from women who are single, like
Speaker 1: on any of my child free videos, and go look
Speaker 1: at their profile. Where do you live.
Speaker 3: I'm in New York.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, go, I mean that's half of my followers are.
Speaker 5: Fround zero ground zero without kids.
Speaker 6: They're everywhere.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you can go out to anyone in the street
Speaker 5: and be like, hey, won want to hang out.
Speaker 1: It's going to be it's it's once you start, it's
Speaker 1: going to just be easier. It'll all come together. But
Speaker 1: I understand you're kind of like feeling at a crossroads.
Speaker 1: But literally, go on my Instagram page, find the people
Speaker 1: who are commenting about how great their lives are as
Speaker 1: single women, child free women, and look where they live
Speaker 1: and if they live near your area, reach out to them.
Speaker 1: I'm sure what area of New York are you in.
Speaker 3: I'm about an hour north of the city.
Speaker 1: Okay, great, so and Ruby. It goes the same for
Speaker 1: Ruby Warrington. Go to her site. She all she talks
Speaker 1: about is child free and find women and go, hey,
Speaker 1: express your situation. You're gonna find so many people that
Speaker 1: are in the same exact position as you that are like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. And also start going out alone a little bit.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to do it all the time,
Speaker 1: but go to a bar if you get invited by, like,
Speaker 1: you know, one of your friends from school, another teacher,
Speaker 1: like say yes to things that you normally wouldn't say
Speaker 1: yes to, so you can come broaden your horizons and
Speaker 1: find out what else is happening out there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll also connect you with there's a group of
Speaker 2: child free gals in New York specifically that are dear
Speaker 2: Chelsea fans.
Speaker 1: I will put you onto Oh Catherine, what the fuck?
Speaker 1: Why don't you just up with that?
Speaker 5: Hey, look, the unsung Sistered is out there. I'm actually
Speaker 5: moving back to New York at the end of the
Speaker 5: summer as well. I hear this from so many people,
Speaker 5: and I know there's such a hunger to meet other
Speaker 5: people to just socialize and hang out with, you know,
Speaker 5: who aren't like coming in baby vomit.
Speaker 3: Or comes with like a whole nother baggage and just.
Speaker 6: Kind of like sleep deprived. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: It's not just the baby.
Speaker 8: It's the baby bag, it's the diapers, it's the toys,
Speaker 8: it's the pack and play.
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, right, and I'm thinking about starting some
Speaker 5: kind of a regular meet up group. So if you
Speaker 5: go onto my Instagram and follow that, they'll be news
Speaker 5: about whatever that looks like in the future just as well.
Speaker 2: The last thing I'll say too is Bumble also has
Speaker 2: a friend mode, so you can actually turn it to
Speaker 2: I'm just looking for friends, see all kinds of friends.
Speaker 2: You're looking for female, child free whatever that.
Speaker 1: I think that's really on your social media. It's fine
Speaker 1: to be like advertising that, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: being like, Hey, I'm just here single, have no children,
Speaker 1: not looking for any, but it would love some other
Speaker 1: child free people to hang out with or whatever. Just
Speaker 1: get a little bit more creative, change up the kind
Speaker 1: of dynamic of your social structure, and I think it'll
Speaker 1: be easy. Your normal fun pretty like smart, You've got
Speaker 1: everything that people would want to be friends with.
Speaker 5: I heard someone say this to me just yesterday. I
Speaker 5: can't remember the exact quote, but it's kind of like
Speaker 5: when your friends have kids, they'll disappear for five years
Speaker 5: and then they'll be back. So remember that first five
Speaker 5: years they're going to be very all consumed with the
Speaker 5: newness and the sleep deprivation and all of the things.
Speaker 5: And then the more independent their kids.
Speaker 6: Are, they'll be like, hey, where is she?
Speaker 3: Hi?
Speaker 5: Can we hang out? So, like, don't give up on
Speaker 5: don't give up on them just because they're not available
Speaker 5: to you now. You are living very different lives right now.
Speaker 5: But that's not going to be the case forever. Like,
Speaker 5: if there's a strong friendship, it's gonna last. If anything,
Speaker 5: I would say, give them moments to like, send them
Speaker 5: a funny meme, send them a nice voice note I'm
Speaker 5: thinking of you. Just let them know that you're there
Speaker 5: and that you could not that you appreciate that. Like
Speaker 5: they've got other stuff going on right now, but like
Speaker 5: you're here, and yes, see to hang and here for
Speaker 5: a cocktail if you want to forget that you've got
Speaker 5: kids for a night.
Speaker 6: You know where I am.
Speaker 5: You know, right, be that person in their life as well.
Speaker 8: Sure, you know, it's like the like the pendulum right now,
Speaker 8: it's swinging in the direction where we're not as close,
Speaker 8: but yeah it could.
Speaker 3: It's going to swing swing back the other. But yeah,
Speaker 3: that's a good, great, excellent point as well.
Speaker 1: And they're going to also need your help because you're
Speaker 1: a teacher, so you're going to have for that they're
Speaker 1: going to need access to when their kids are growing up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's already happening. Yeah, what do I
Speaker 3: do or where can I find? What do you suggest?
Speaker 8: Yeah, you're right, Yeah, all great points to consider and
Speaker 8: just take in too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and be loud about your child free stance so
Speaker 1: that you are attracting people that are also feeling that
Speaker 1: same way, you know, like that could be your thing, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm child free and single, I'm looking for other child
Speaker 1: free people. Who else is?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: And get activated that way. There's no shame in that game.
Speaker 1: It's good to pronounce what you're about.
Speaker 3: Taking your lead.
Speaker 8: You're normalizing it and it's like, yeah, maybe kids in
Speaker 8: a marriage isn't for me, and yeah, make it more known,
Speaker 8: normalize it.
Speaker 1: It's okay, Yes, cool.
Speaker 2: Well, Karen, you got your marching orders. I'll hook you
Speaker 2: up with the New York gals as well. Who are
Speaker 2: the dear tel.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, please, I would much appreciate that. Yes, right,
Speaker 3: thank you so much.
Speaker 6: We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 4: Let us know how it goes.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much much.
Speaker 1: Bye, Honey, bye, thank you, Bye bye Ruby Bye. What
Speaker 1: a cute she is. I didn't know we had a
Speaker 1: fucking group of child free people. Can we do?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 2: Remember, they keep writing in be like, can you add
Speaker 2: me to the list? I told you, I told you.
Speaker 1: Where do they congregate?
Speaker 4: I actually don't know.
Speaker 2: I should check in with them, but I got like
Speaker 2: several of them together on an email thread and they're like, well,
Speaker 2: let you know how it goes, Bloper please, yeah, yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'll connect her. I knew she was East cousin, I
Speaker 2: didn't know if she was New York.
Speaker 4: So that's that's perfect.
Speaker 6: But let's take a.
Speaker 2: Quick break, and I actually have one more quick question
Speaker 2: for you when we come back, which is.
Speaker 4: Sort of the opposite of the question we just covered.
Speaker 1: And we're back.
Speaker 4: We're back.
Speaker 2: Our last question comes from Jen. Hey, girls, my name
Speaker 2: is Jen Cod and I'm seeking advice from a child
Speaker 2: free woman's perspective on how much I should really expect
Speaker 2: from my best friend when it comes to my children.
Speaker 2: We have been best friends for twelve years, and to
Speaker 2: this day, she prefers to not hang out if my
Speaker 2: boys are with me, ages ten and six. I definitely
Speaker 2: don't think they should be around every time we hang out,
Speaker 2: but she has never made any effort to bond with
Speaker 2: them or get to know them. I try my hardest
Speaker 2: to never cancel plans with her, but sometimes I ask
Speaker 2: if it's okay for the boys to come, and she
Speaker 2: reschedules every time. She does claim she wants kids, just
Speaker 2: not yet. But I don't understand why she doesn't want
Speaker 2: anything to do with mine, seeing as how they are
Speaker 2: such a big part of my life.
Speaker 1: Much love Jen, Okay, Well Jen, as the Devil's advocate,
Speaker 1: I would just say, are your boys of fucking pain?
Speaker 1: And they ask to hang out with a they ask
Speaker 1: yourself that question because maybe they are, Maybe they're very rambunctious.
Speaker 1: Maybe that really annoys her.
Speaker 2: I don't know how old did she say at ten
Speaker 2: and six?
Speaker 1: So probably yeah, Like that's not for everyone. And while
Speaker 1: it's disappointing, and I would always make an effort for
Speaker 1: any one of my friends that have children, I not
Speaker 1: an effort to hang out with them, but an effort
Speaker 1: to know about them and get to know them, or
Speaker 1: you know, I don't need to be on playdates with them.
Speaker 1: I know it's your best friend and you want her
Speaker 1: to be more interested, but I don't think you can
Speaker 1: impose that upon her. Your life choices are not her
Speaker 1: life choices, and while you may want her to care,
Speaker 1: you can't control the way she feels about that. And
Speaker 1: maybe your kids are just not for her. Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know a lot of people that aren't mothers that
Speaker 1: want to hang out with a ten and six year
Speaker 1: old boy.
Speaker 2: I don't, especially ones that are not related to Technically, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: my friend has has two boys and she's one of
Speaker 2: my closest friends.
Speaker 1: She's never asked me to hang out with them. And
Speaker 1: it's not because I wouldn't. I would, but she's never
Speaker 1: asked me, So I just I don't think that that's
Speaker 1: a fair request. What do you think, Ruby, Yeah, well.
Speaker 5: I think that. I mean, I'll speak for myself. Some
Speaker 5: people just aren't good with kids. One of the I
Speaker 5: think one of the reasons I never wanted to have children,
Speaker 5: is I didn't really like being a child, Like I
Speaker 5: didn't even know how to be with kids when I
Speaker 5: was a kid, Do you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 5: I I don't know, I just don't really know how
Speaker 5: to talk to kids. I don't really know what they're
Speaker 5: interested in. I kind of clam up around kids, like
Speaker 5: I'm just not a kid person on any level. And
Speaker 5: so yeah, it kind of like completely changes the dynamic
Speaker 5: of a friend.
Speaker 3: Hang.
Speaker 5: If I think I'm going to be spending the day
Speaker 5: with my friend and then her kids are there as well,
Speaker 5: because I just get really kind of self conscious and
Speaker 5: sort of like are we talking to them?
Speaker 6: And if so, what do we talk about?
Speaker 5: Because I've got no idea, And like there's also other
Speaker 5: stuff that could be going on under the surface, Right,
Speaker 5: it could be that I don't know, maybe your friend
Speaker 5: is would like to have children and can't for some
Speaker 5: reason that you guys haven't had time to discuss. And
Speaker 5: actually she doesn't really want to be in a situation
Speaker 5: where she's constantly reminded of the fact that she hasn't
Speaker 5: got there in her life yet. Like there's so many
Speaker 5: things that could be going on that are kind of
Speaker 5: resulting in this but yeah, I can understand how it
Speaker 5: might feel hurtful.
Speaker 1: It's a distraction also to hang out with two kids,
Speaker 1: Like then you're not really hanging with each other. It's
Speaker 1: all about the kids, So like that's take away from
Speaker 1: the friendship. And I understand she's saying once in a while,
Speaker 1: but I really don't think it's a it's a fair
Speaker 1: demand of your friend to want to hang out with
Speaker 1: your kids. You can't make somebody want to do something.
Speaker 2: And I think don't take it personally either, Like she's
Speaker 2: not doing it to.
Speaker 4: Be hurtful to you.
Speaker 2: She's just not interested in your kids. And I think
Speaker 2: that's okay, just seeing as time with her is time
Speaker 2: away from your kids. It's grown up time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much, Ruby Warrington. I wish you
Speaker 1: so much success. Thank you for being our guest today.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, thank you for having me.
Speaker 6: I mean, honestly, Chelsea.
Speaker 5: After your Netflix special came out and then you produced
Speaker 5: your genius, genius Diary of a Child Free Women real,
Speaker 5: I literally was getting DMS and messages most days, several
Speaker 5: messages most days.
Speaker 6: Send Chelsea a copy of your book. Chelsea needs your book.
Speaker 6: So thank you.
Speaker 5: I'm so happy you've got the book and that you're
Speaker 5: reading it. To have had this conversation with you and
Speaker 5: have had the opportunity to answer some of your your
Speaker 5: reading questions today, it's been really great. Thanks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it has been Thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Bye.
Speaker 1: Okay. Second shows have been added for those of you
Speaker 1: coming to see my new stand up tour, which you
Speaker 1: have to come because I'm having the best time. We
Speaker 1: added a second show into Cincinnati, Los Angeles, which is
Speaker 1: actually October thirteenth. There are still tickets for October thirteenth
Speaker 1: show in Los Angeles. We added second shows in Chicago,
Speaker 1: the Chicago Theater at Portland, Oregon, San Francisco. They're both
Speaker 1: almost completely sold out. Detroit, Michigan, and then we added
Speaker 1: a second show in Cincinnati in the daytime at five
Speaker 1: o'clock PM. I'm doing my first show because I don't
Speaker 1: have a night where I can go back, so we
Speaker 1: added a second show at five pm, and the original
Speaker 1: show is at eight pm. Original show is sold out.
Speaker 1: Second show tickets are available Cincinnati. I'm also coming to
Speaker 1: Cleveland on October twentieth, and then I'll be in Columbus
Speaker 1: October twenty first and Pittsburgh October twenty second. So those
Speaker 1: three shows I still have tickets available, and you can
Speaker 1: go to Chelsea Hamler dot com for other tickets and
Speaker 1: other information. And if you want to buy some of
Speaker 1: our merch, that's all available on Chelseahanmler dot com. And yeah, guys,
Speaker 1: I'll see you on the road.
Speaker 2: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 2: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 2: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 2: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and
Speaker 2: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
Speaker 2: com