WEBVTT - The Amazon Seller Caught in the Middle of a Trade War 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.759 And the more than a year long trade war between 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.600 the U S and China. Last Thursday was one of 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.639 the few good days. Story of the morning, US security 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.760 futures jumping after China's commerce industry saying the U. S 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.400 and China have agreed to phase out the tariffs that 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.720 were imposed during the trade war. Stocks rallied on the breakthrough, 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:24.360 but the euphoria didn't last for long. Just the day after, 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:27.000 China said the two countries agreed to roll back tariffs 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.440 on each other's goods, which, by the way, US officials 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:34.440 echoed to President Trump himself came out and denied he's 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:38.760 agreed to anything. This left down that they couldn't even 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.960 agree on whether there was an agreement. It was just 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.760 one more reminder that this trade war is far from over. 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.080 What hangs in the balance is, of course, the health 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:54.880 of the entire global economy. It was about seven hundred 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.000 billion dollars in trade between the US and China last year, 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.720 but with numbers that big, it's easier to forget that 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.120 this is about more than just geopolitics or foreign exchange 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.520 rates or corporate earnings. It's also about the lives of 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:11.520 a lot of people around the world. Whose jobs and 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.399 businesses depends on the two countries getting along. For them, 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:20.360 this last year has been their own personal nightmare, a 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:24.200 lot of sleepless nights considering an uncertain future, caught in 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:30.680 the middle of two quarreling superpowers breaking tonight, serious punching 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.640 and counterpunching taking place right now in what has become 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.880 a full fledged trade war between the US. Today, in 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.960 the show, reporter Shelley Banjo brings us the story of 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:46.319 one such person, an American named Michael mcgliny, who sells 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.440 espresso makers manufactured in China to American customers on Amazon. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.480 Michael bet his entire career on the idea of global 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.600 trade and the hope that technology was making the world 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:01.080 an open and interconnected place, only to watch all that 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:07.400 unravel in recent months. Amako, you're listening to Decrypted Stay 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:23.800 with us, Hey, Shelly, welcome back to the show. Thanks 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.480 for having me. You know, you found a really interesting 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:31.720 guy for today's episode. How did you get to know him? Well, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.400 the trade war was in full swing and we started 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.760 to wonder what was happening to e commerce sellers who 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.400 had kind of built these big businesses on Amazon making 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:44.360 stuff in China. And selling them in the US, and 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.839 so I wanted to find someone who could really tell 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:53.160 us about what that was like. So tell me about him. 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.280 Michael grew up in Hartford, Connecticut, to a blue collar, 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.280 working class family. Michael had to work his way through 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.600 high school working at grocery stores. Then he worked in 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.840 a machine shop with his uncle. I was interning in 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.520 a machine shop in Connecticut where I grew up at Hartford, 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.680 and I was getting shut down. I mean I was there. 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.200 Was like a smart guy, Alex, and he says, you know, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.080 everything is going overseas. I don't know what we're gonna 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.400 do here. And uh. He went to New Jersey for 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.640 college and ended up getting a job on Wall Street 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.160 in New York working for Deutsche Bank. But you know, 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:29.400 the one in the Wall Street wasn't necessarily for him, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:33.240 and he kind of for fun starts this bartending supplies 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.720 store called New York bar store dot com, where he 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.440 would sell things like um cocktail shakers and beer pong 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.680 accessories on eBay. I was really having a lot of 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.880 trouble trying to buy from China walls on Wall Street, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.320 and I remember being on Skype at like ten eleven 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.120 pm on my fifth floor walk up. But you know, 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.120 we were just felt a huge disadvantage. I'd wait like 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.800 a week or two weeks for a sample to come, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.600 you know, and they spoke English, but he didn't understand. 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.400 So in March two thousand and seven, right before the 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.480 financial crisis, he decided to quit his job. Then he decides, 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:11.040 you know what, I'm going to go to China and 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.760 kind of find those factories that are making these beer 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:17.360 punks accessories and bar supplies and kind of figure out 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:20.119 how to turbo charge that business. So I just felt 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.839 like I needed to go there because I felt like 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:26.000 all of the knowledge and information is getting sent there. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:27.880 And I was like, yeah, I just let all of 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.400 our technology, let all of our money, just send it 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:36.240 all to China. What does outsource everything? So this is 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.360 right before the financial crisis. I remember it was a 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.440 really different time back then. You know, the consensus in 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:48.920 Washington was very pro free trade, generally receptive towards China, 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.800 and it was just a different mood. That's right. China 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.080 was opening up to Western businesses. There was this general 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:59.719 feeling that China was the future. But Michael felt a 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.720 lot of resistance when he justified this move to his family. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.000 I spoke to Michael's uncle, Gary Garno. Michael had worked 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:09.760 with Gary in a machine shop in Hartford. Gary now 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.279 lives in Florida and he's unemployed. I knew America was dying, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.239 you know, we were losing all our industry. China was 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.880 was was was heading up. You know, there aren't learning 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.520 up swing, you know, And here's what was happening. And 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.920 during that time, in my opinion, we were shutting out 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.960 factories all over the place, and we were sinking hundreds 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.760 of billions of dollars into China. What was your first 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.920 thought when when Michael told you that he was going 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.200 to move to China. I was kind of hate losing him, really. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:39.520 I didn't want to see him leave, but I figured 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.480 he knew what he was doing. He's pretty smart guy 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.880 and he likes to sell stuff, and I guess China 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:46.320 is the place to go. He told me to get 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:51.520 a factory in China. I don't fit in with the 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:56.960 rest of the family. They're not so supportive, honestly. I 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.200 uh my mom cried about it, but they just feel 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.880 like they're much more patriotic than I am. I'm not 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:10.800 like anti American I'm just more people are humans. I mean, 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:19.320 all these borders just don't make sense to me. Okay, 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.840 So Michael gets to China. What does he do there? 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.400 So Michael immediately starts to hustle. He's dabbling in and 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.440 out of e commerce. He meets his wife who's Chinese. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.440 He sets up a consulting company that focuses on cross 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:35.760 border trade, and then he starts a business manufacturing old 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.760 school Italian espresso coffee pots. These are made in a 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.520 factory in China, and then he sells them on Amazon 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:45.279 to US customers. And when is this So this is 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.560 right around the time that Donald Trump gets elected. We 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:53.279 can't continue to allow China to rape our country. And 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:56.240 that's what they're doing. It's the greatest And of course 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:03.039 Trump campaigned on very anti China, anti trade rhetoric, right 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:08.400 And among the voters who voted for Trump was Michael's 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:14.520 own uncle Gary, who you know, saw jobs moving from 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.800 his hometown of Hartford to China, and he agreed with Trump, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.880 we gotta start protecting America. Don is right, we gotta 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.200 bring back that industry's gonna keep you gonna bite us. 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:29.000 But you know, the Trumps presidency starts in that's right. 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.440 And at first Trump and President Chi Jimping of China 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.760 are really getting along. They share chocolate cake, they visit 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.920 each other's countries, and they make this plan that they're 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.280 going to resolve the whole trade difference in one days. 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:46.400 But near the end of the U s starts implementing 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:52.000 tariffs on steel and solar panels. These are two major 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.400 industries that China is really proud of, and so China 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.840 hits back and puts tariffs on cars and agricultural goods 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.960 from the US. What does this do? We're now seeing 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.080 the United States made a move and now overnight China 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.080 has made a move, and the trade war keeps escalating. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.600 Businesses are scrambling to try to figure out what to 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.720 do next. I don't want to use the word because 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.320 it's a highly respected show, but they are taking advantage 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.000 of us. Okay, I'll use a different set of words. 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:24.400 They are taking And what's Michael up to during this time? 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.960 About a year and a half into Trump's presidency, Michael, 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.559 his wife, and his two kids decided to leave China. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.640 They end up settling down in Thailand. I mean, I 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:37.080 could feel that China wasn't welcoming foreigners anymore. Honestly, I 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.520 could feel it even then. I'll say, you know, from 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.040 the US, and I'll say, do you like do you 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.400 still like Americans? You know, I'm just afraid to refresh 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.559 to news sometimes, especially when I'm inside of mainland China, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.199 because you never know, they decided that they no longer 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:56.240 actually had to be in China to run the coffee 0:08:56.240 --> 0:09:00.240 pot business, and things just weren't as comfortable any more 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:04.719 for Michael to be an American in China. And he 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.480 decides that this would kind of hedge his bets against China, 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:19.920 kind of create another life in a different country. We'll 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:28.240 be right back, okay. So before the break, Shelley, you 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.719 walked us through the worsening relationship between the US and 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:37.720 China and the toll that takes on Michael. That gets 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.920 us to the beginning of Well, earlier this year, it 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.280 seemed like again we were getting close to another deal. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.719 But then March came, and then April came and there 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.800 was still no deal. And then in May Trump rips 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.160 off a tweet, of course, saying that progress is going 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.679 slowly and China is renegging on earlier promises. So Drump's 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.360 had it at this point, and he threatens to increase 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:08.400 tariffs up to the US decides to ban American companies 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:12.200 from doing business with Huawei, China's biggest tech company, and 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.199 the trade war kind of explodes. Quick check in the market. 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.680 You'll see the Tao is plunging. It's a response to 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.320 the escalating stakes in this US trade war with China. Yeah, 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.440 this is when things are looking really bad. I think 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.240 a lot of the sellers are like, like me, we're 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.040 just still waiting. We're still kind of in shock, or 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.040 we're still thinking. Maybe there seems like there's still this negotiation, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.120 always this and that thing, and um, I feel like 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.319 we're all still kind of waiting. So this is when 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.560 I met Michael. It was a right around the time 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.520 of the G twenty summit in Japan last summer, when 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.560 Trump and She were about to meet in person, and 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.320 Michael and probably everyone else around the world was on 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.120 pins and needles to see what would happen. And the 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.960 much anticipated meeting the twain the Chinese and US presidents 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.400 is just a few hours away at the j twenty 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.360 of And I never even really pay attention to T twenty. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.760 I've heard of it and obviously this year was more important. 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.920 So yeah, I was definitely like, Saturday morning they will 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.280 be meeting, and it was Japanese time. I'm rose Osaka, 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.520 so I'm like, it's a little bit ahead of you know, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:18.640 where I was in Thailand, So you know, of course, 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.720 I'm like kind of refreshing the news waiting for the 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.679 update of his meeting. The US and China agreed to 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.160 restart trade talks, but it's certainly not a done deal, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:29.920 and at this point, Michael needs to make a decision 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.240 about Christmas. Christmas is super important because it's when he 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:37.040 brings in of his sales, and he's ordering goods from 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.840 a factory in China. It takes a few months to 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:41.800 make the coffee pots and then ship them all the 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:46.400 way to the US. Other Amazon sellers are ordering less stuff, 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.720 but Michael holds off. He ends up taking a big gamble. 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.760 He decides not to change his coffee pot order, and 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.720 he figures he'll just eat the cost of whatever tariffs 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.040 might hit him. What is the other option, like, kind 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:03.600 of make it in America. Um, from what I saw 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:06.600 involved in making these products, I don't think I could 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:08.720 make it in America. At least I guess I could 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:11.360 fly there to try to teach somebody how to do 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:14.960 like all of this again, but basically there's no I 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:16.800 feel like there's no other options. So what that means 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.840 is everybody in my market is buying this from China. 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.880 Maybe in the long term, somebody will win that could 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.240 beat me by being making it somewhere else, but nobody's 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.280 gonna be able to make it somewhere else and before 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.680 at least for Christmas maybe, So I think you got 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.120 to say in the game, if you run a stock, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:41.160 you're basically giving up. So, um, what do you think 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:45.079 it's going to happen in six months? I think Donald 0:12:45.080 --> 0:12:48.280 Trump is probably also realizing he's going to shoot himself 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.360 in the foot. I do feel like American economy is 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.800 based on the important cheap Chinese goods. I feel safe 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:58.760 for Christmas. I don't think he's gonna screw it. I 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.800 don't think he's a mess with chrisma us. I think 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:04.600 he's going to just keep extending this and and uh, 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:06.960 I hope he doesn't because he wants to get reelected. 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.440 So what happens next? And then all of a sudden 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.280 on August first, welcome back to some dramatic breaking news 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:23.080 on tariffs. Trump starts tweeting again about more tariffs. And 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:27.480 these are the tariffs that really worry people because they're 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:31.480 on consumer goods like electronics and clothes and things that 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:35.360 are really going to hit retailers and consumers where they hurt. 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:39.720 Right before Christmas, right, people start talking about Trump destroying 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:44.920 Christmas exactly. So this is when things are starting to 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.320 look really bad. Yeah, and it gets even worse when 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.600 the US declares China currency manipulator, which is kind of 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.840 an official way to accuse a country of cheating on trade. 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.559 So I started thinking about Michael, and I give him 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.559 a call because I'm wondering what Michael's thinking at this time. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.080 So turns up, Michael has big news. He decides, you 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:12.120 know this, these tensions and this back and forth is 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.400 just really getting too much for him, and he decides 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.600 to actually sell the coffee pot business, uh to a 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:25.240 company that kind of rolls up other Amazon businesses, and 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.680 UH join that company, so it kind of spreads out 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.400 his risk. Wow, I can't believe he sold his business 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.920 because of the trade war. You know, I don't think 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.680 it was just the trade war, but I think he 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.720 can kind of feel these growing tensions between the US 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.480 and China that you know, he doesn't want to build 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:50.560 and keep his whole life tied to China. The bad 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.120 thing about America is you can't play long term. We 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.120 don't know how long Donald Trump will stay. You know, Um, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.000 the policy just changed, Like Trump comes in and reverses 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.440 what a whilement something Obama did, and then maybe the 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.840 next person comes in and changes what Trump did. You know, 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.280 I think even China's waiting it out, you know, I 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.480 think China can wait until the next president. So in September, 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.840 the tariffs that Trump threatened over the summer come into effect. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.680 These are tariffs on consumer goods like footwear, TVs and 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.240 of course home goods. And does this include coffee pots? 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.200 It does. So even though Michael sold the business to 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.800 a fund, now that he works for the fund, he's 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.280 still keeping tabs on the business. How much does that 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:34.320 hurt Michael? The coffee pots go for about on Amazon 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.720 and Michael makes seven dollars on each pot. So this 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:40.440 new tariff eats into the business, but it doesn't wipe 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.120 out the margin altogether. So, um, did you raise your 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.200 prices on the coffee pots? We haven't raised yet, but 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.640 we it's the scary thing. Well, we've we've taken a 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:56.640 hit so far and have other have competitors raised their prices, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:02.200 It seems just stated about stable honestly. Wow, So everybody's 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:11.600 kind of just absorbing, holding their breath. So, Shelley, there's 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.600 been so many developments to keep track of with this 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:19.760 trade war. I'm sure you've been very busy. What's the latest? Who? 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.000 It changes day by day to make it more manageable. 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:25.440 The US and China have agreed to break up the 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.920 trade deal into phases. Phase one actually looks to be 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.280 gaining some traction. And what's Michael up to? Michael's done 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:36.960 watching the news. He's really struggling with this roller coaster 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.760 of tariffs, and frankly, he just seems really down. I'd 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.120 rather know I'm gonna have to pay more or more 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:46.920 and then just be done with it. It's like it's 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:48.880 kind of like the boyfriend girlfriend thing where you break 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.040 up and you get back together like multiple times. Like 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:52.680 for me, I just yeah, I want closure. I just 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:53.760 want to know, am I gonna have to pay a 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.080 lot more? You know? How do you manage the anxiety 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:06.720 while you're searching for these opportunities meditation, Um, remembering this 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.480 not just me, that everybody's facing this, whether you're a 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:15.199 small individual seller or a multi million dollars seller. I 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.720 mean realizing I'm I'm flexible. Um, I adapted, I adapt 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.960 so I and I believe I'm more willing to take risks. 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.240 I'm more willing to do what it takes to stay 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.200 in the game. But he doesn't want to move all 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.640 is manufacturing away from China altogether. For the coffee pot business, 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.920 it's just impossible. The only place in the world at 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:42.240 the moment that makes those coffee pots are in China. 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.440 So he did look into the US. You know, Uncle 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.520 Gary has said to Michael, why can't you make your 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.399 products in the US, And Michael's tried to explain to 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.000 him that that, um, you know, factories don't make those 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:58.800 coffee pots in the US, or in Southeast Asia or 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:02.160 really anywhere else. And the trade deal do you think 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.399 that will help that that will help bring more jobs 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.760 back to the US. We have to do something, man, 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:08.800 because all the products are made over there, and it's 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.160 not the American people's fault, it's it's these cooperation. Michael said, 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.760 for example, that he can't make his coffee pots in America. 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.160 But nowhere in America he couldn't even find a factory 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:22.240 to make them because they're all going to got moved out. 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.920 It's it's we've lost a lot of our capacity. It's 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.639 very disheartening, you know. So what do you do? Like, 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.320 let's say you're Michael and you want to keep your 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.000 business growing, and you you know, he said to me, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.439 I would love to make these coffee pots in the 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:42.560 United States. Like, what do you do if you're him? 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:45.439 The word a precarious situation? Man, we really are. I 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.480 agree with you, and I agree with Mike. It's sad, 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:54.840 you know, there's no simple solutions. There isn't. I think 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.760 the politicians in Washington, these ridiculous people, puppets that they 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.560 haven't Washington. Uh, they don't understand the value of jobs. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.280 They let all these jobs leave the country. People have 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:09.320 to have jobs. What would you do with our job? Man? 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:10.879 What would I do? What our job? We have to 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:21.960 have jobs. So, Shelley, what did Michael end up doing 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.400 about the coffee pots? It took a lot of agonizing 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.960 on Michael's apart, but in the end, he decided to 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.040 raise prices to recoup some of the costs of the tariffs, 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.800 and so did a lot of his competitors. You know, 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.080 I'm sure this whole ordeal over the last year so 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.840 has been so stressful for him. What does he make 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.760 of all of this now, Well, Michael seems a bit lost. 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:48.480 You know. He moved to China for the promise of 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.879 this globalized world, and that world started to deliver at first. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.840 It brought him a lot of good things, his business, 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.560 his wife, his family, and now it's threatened. What do 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.920 you think is the general sense that you have now 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:06.920 compared to like five years ago when you were living 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.320 in China and really believing in this more of a 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:16.119 globalized world. Yeah, it's really I guess I'm it's sad 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.760 to me. I mean, I think with internet and technology, 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.440 there's a huge opportunity for people from all different parts 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:25.200 of the world to be able to communicate with each 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.080 other and work with each other. But it just seems 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.119 like it's going backwards as far as that. And I 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.920 thought five ten years ago it wasn't be more and 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:35.400 more open, but the governments are just trying to put 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:38.880 walls up, barriers up. I mean, the reason I came 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:45.320 here was to try to learn and understand rather than 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:47.800 just put the wall up and not know anything that's 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:51.320 happening here, Like I wanted to come here to understand it. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:53.480 And I have an amazing Chinese wife, and I have 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.800 two children that speak English and Chinese and are going 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.800 to be educated to learn the bull side, and they're 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:10.960 going to be better people than me. Shelley Banjo, thanks 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:21.520 for coming on the show today. Thanks Akio. Decrypted is 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.120 hosted by me Ako. Sean Wyn is our executive producer. 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.479 Ethan Brooks mixes Show Today, and Alistair Barrow was our 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.400 story editor. Joe Leonardtine, Matt Burley, and Dex Bruce assisted 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.639 with recordings. Francesco Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:48.399 We'll see you next week.