1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: I have to say, I think we're very good about recycling. 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: I like to compost. I've seen stasher bags. They did 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 1: not have reusable zip lock bags like that when I 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: was growing up. 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: No, we were putting our peanut butter and jelly in 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: that bag, coming home, putting it in a trash. That 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: was it. We didn't think anything about it. But now, 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 2: I mean, if you see somebody with a plastic grocery 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: bag in a grocery store, everybody's kind of looking at them, like, 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: my goodness, it's the thing of the past. 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: I got a thousand canvas totes, okay, and I'm carrying 12 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: them all out like the Hulk. 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: Yes, now, a nice canvas tote. You're definitely keeping that. 14 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: You used to keep all those plastic bags under the 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,480 Speaker 2: sync in another plastic bag thing of the past. 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: And there might be a pretty good reason for that, 17 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: according to a recent consumer report, right right. I'm glad 18 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: you saw that, because that's exactly what I wanted to 19 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: talk about. This consumer report was talking about the chemicals 20 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: that are found in some of these plastics and packaging 21 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: that we use us for our food, and that made 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: me kind of nervous because everything low key is packaged 23 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: in something. Even the oranges coming in a net. You 24 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: can't just buy a couple loose. I mean sometimes you can, 25 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: but they want you to use those little thin green 26 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: film bags. Usually those are compostable, but a lot of 27 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: times it's not. 28 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 2: And if you don't put it in the compost. 29 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Then what then what? 30 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: I'm t T and I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This 31 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: is Dope Labs. 32 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that makes it 33 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: hardcore science, pop culture and a healthy delsa friendship. This 34 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: week we're talking about the chemicals that are commonly found 35 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: in food packaging and lots of consumer products. We want 36 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: to know more about them and how they impact our 37 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: health and environment. 38 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: Let's get into the recitation, all right, CT. 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: What do we know? 40 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 2: Well, we know that there's a lot of single use 41 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: packaging all around us. I mean we grew up during 42 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: a time with you know, the ziplock bags, all the 43 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 2: bags for fast food pizza boxes, everything like that, and 44 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: so at this point it's almost unavoidable grocery bag. It's 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: just a part of the world culture. 46 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: And I think what we also know, well, I can 47 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: speak for myself in many of my colleagues that we're 48 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: doing a lot of takeout. We saw that, especially over 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: the early stages of the pandemic, takeout and convenience food. 50 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: There is a lot of packaging involved in that. If 51 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: you're not going and picking a bell pepper, you know, 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: or picking a tomato off the vine, it's coming in 53 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: one of those little plastic containers. Those products are often 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: wrapped for your convenience and safety, but they're made out 55 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: of something. We also know that chemicals are everywhere, but 56 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: not all chemicals are created equals. Some of the chemicals 57 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: that we come in contact with, like water, which is 58 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: a chemical. It's made up of molecules, and so water 59 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: and you know, carbon monoxide are two very different things. 60 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: Carbon dioxide you don't want that much of, but. 61 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: Water we know that we need. We need some of 62 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: that every single day. 63 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: I think this is a very good example of the 64 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: importance of moving past what you can see with your eyes. 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: We talked about this in a previous episode when we 66 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: spoke about oysters and seeing their health. But it's easy 67 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: to look at something and say, huh, seems okay, just 68 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: because you're looking at it and you don't see a 69 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: lot happening with your eyeballs, But there's a lot past 70 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: what these eyeballs can see. So what do we want 71 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: to know? I want to know about some of these chemicals. 72 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: What are they called? Are there different categories of them? 73 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: Because the only two like bad guy can micals I 74 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: know about our BPAs and then just styrofoam in general. 75 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 1: I know you're not supposed to hit styrofoam in a microwave, 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: but I know there's more to worry about than that. 77 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: I want to know how these chemicals in the packaging, 78 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: how they're affecting the environment. Because we know the landfill, honey, 79 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: we talk about it all the time. Everything is going 80 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: into a landfill and we know that once against the 81 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: landfill that that means is becoming a part of our 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: ecosystem es ecosystem, right, So how is it affecting our environment? 83 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: Well, when you know better, you do better. Over the 84 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: past couple of decades, there's been a greater understanding of 85 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: things that are around and just in the environment, and 86 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: how long it takes for things to degrade, and some 87 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: things don't ever go away. So what's the plan? Is 88 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: there any policy around this stuff? How has the packaging 89 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: industry responded to these things like what's the tea? What's 90 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: going on? 91 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: And I want to know what we can do in 92 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: our day to day lives to not only protect ourselves 93 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: but protect the environment. How can we consume more responsibly? 94 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: Because I'm gonna be going to Burger King That's one 95 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: thing that I know for sure. 96 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: You love a wopper. 97 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,720 Speaker 2: I love a whopper, I do, and I am going 98 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: to be going to Popey's, Popeyes Burger King. Hear me up? 99 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 2: I mean for real. 100 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: So let's jump into the dissection. 101 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 2: Our guest for today's lab is Justin Fouchet. 102 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: My name is Justin Fouchet. I'm the operations director at 103 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 3: a nonprofit science, research and communication organization called the Food 104 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: Packaging Forum Foundation. 105 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: The Food Packaging Forum Foundation research is the chemicals found 106 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: in food packaging and its environmental impacts. 107 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 2: So you've been hearing Zaki and I say this term 108 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: forever chemicals, and a forever chemical is defined as a 109 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 2: p FOSS, which is p fa s and we ask 110 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: Justin to explain at a basic level what p fos 111 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 2: are and where we can find them. 112 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: We use the term pfos pafas, and it classically sustains 113 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: for per and polyfluoro aalcool substances, and the current definition 114 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 3: according to the OECD the Organization of Economic Cooperation Development, 115 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: is that pfos are any fluorinated substances with at least 116 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:25,159 Speaker 3: one fully fluorinated methyl or methylene carbon atom. And the 117 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: main thing to know about these very simply is that 118 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 3: these are molecules characterized by having carbon atoms attached to 119 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: fluorine atoms. 120 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: And this bond that Justin is talking about is the 121 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: strongest known bond that exists. You'd think the bond between 122 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: JT and young Miami is strong. Well, this is stronger 123 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: than that. This means that it's virtually impossible for this 124 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: chemical to break down. 125 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: The chemical properties of p fos make them very useful 126 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: for many consumer products. 127 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 3: The chemical structure this carbon fluorine bond makes them have 128 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: a high water and oil repellency as well as being 129 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: very thermaline chemically stable, and research recently over the past 130 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: few years has shown that they're used across many many 131 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 3: products and really practically all industries. There was a study 132 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty published by a research group that found 133 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: over the four thy seven hundred different pfos chemicals identified 134 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 3: by the oecd that are known to be on the 135 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: market or have been developed somewhere at use sometime. 136 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: Justin says that p FOSS has been found in some 137 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: climbing rope, guitar strings, ski wax, artificial turf, and. 138 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: Some cosmetics cosmetics not my skincare, not my foundation, All 139 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: of those things. Basically p foss are there. 140 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 2: PFIs are found in lots of food packaging materials. But 141 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: p fos are man made chemicals, and the problem is 142 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: exactly what we just talk about. They don't degrade, so 143 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: they stay around essentially forever, which is why they're called 144 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: forever chemicals. 145 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: Many of them can start to break down in the 146 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: environment a bit, some of them break down more than others, 147 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 3: but none of them really break down completely. 148 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: So we ask Justin to explain what makes p foss 149 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: stick around so long. 150 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: And it all goes back to this carbon fluorine bond. So, 151 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: in organic chemistry, carbon fluorine is the single bond and 152 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: it has the greatest strength that exists within organic chemistry. 153 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 3: It's very, very difficult to break this carbon fluorine bond. 154 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 3: So normally man made chemicals in the environment that are 155 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 3: made up of different types of elements connected together with 156 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: different ways and different bonds. They can be broken down, 157 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 3: maybe by bacteria, maybe by environmental processes. Maybe they react 158 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: with their chemicals and eventually they turn back into whatever 159 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: they started with, just carbon molecules water. But this carbon 160 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: fluorine bond does not break down easily in the environment 161 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 3: like everything else does. 162 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: And when we say break down easily, that still takes 163 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: quite a bit of time. Paper takes two to six 164 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: weeks to completely decompose, and apple core takes two months. 165 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Now contrast that with a plastic bag. We're talking to 166 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: to twenty years to decompose. 167 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 2: Right, And if that plastic bag has pfos in it, 168 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: those chemicals don't decompose with the plastic, They stay around 169 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: for hundreds and hundreds of years. Over the past couple 170 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 2: of years, p FOSS has been found in paper and cardboard, 171 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: food packaging, plastics, and in some metal coatings. P Foss 172 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 2: coatings are applied to these packagings to create a water 173 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: in grease resistant food packaging, like with burger wrappers or 174 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: pizza boxes, and that's the reason why your pizza stays 175 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: in the box and doesn't fall through the bottom by 176 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: the time it gets to you, And unfortunately it's not 177 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: as simple as avoiding one type of packaging or food company. 178 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: Every food packaging material is different. Right, Because your food 179 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 3: packaging doesn't come with a list of ingredients like your 180 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 3: food does. You don't know necessarily what's in there. So 181 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: you might have one plastic or paper plate that is 182 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: comparatively fairly clean, so to say, right, compared to one 183 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 3: from a different manufacturer that uses their own formula. We 184 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: can't point the finger and say this one packaging is 185 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 3: different or better from this packaging because we don't have 186 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 3: the data. But all we can say is that, generally right, 187 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 3: non inert materials migrate chemicals. We know that there are 188 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: thousands of chemicals that could be used in this type 189 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: of food packaging, but because we don't know what's there, 190 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 3: we take a precautionary approach with how we use it 191 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: to avoid potential chemical exposures that we don't want to have. 192 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: A non inert material is a material that will change 193 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 2: over time or decompose. An inert material won't change at all, 194 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: so there's no chemical reaction that occurs in its lifetime. 195 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: It may seem intuitive to avoid those chemical exposures. You 196 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: can say well, I'm not eating the wrapper, So I 197 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: have accidentally done that, haven't we all? You know when 198 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: you've eating a burger and the cheese is on the 199 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 2: wrapper and you want to get that little bit, Yeah, 200 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: I've eaten it. 201 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: You should have left it behind, friend, it's too hard. 202 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: Justin says we should be concerned about how these chemicals 203 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: might migrate in to our food. 204 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 3: It's one thing for the chemical to be in the packaging. 205 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 3: It's another thing for it to then actually move into 206 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 3: your food, a process called migration, and then expose people 207 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: who are eating that food. 208 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: Right. 209 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: There was a recent study that came out that showed 210 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: that pithos migration increased when the food had a high 211 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 3: fat content, when it had a high salt content, when 212 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 3: it was acidic, and during higher temperatures. 213 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: I think I saw something on Netflix that told me 214 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: that those were all the components of good food. There's 215 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: a whole cookbook about that. 216 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: Yes, and that sounds like all of my favorite favorite treats. 217 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: I fat, I salt, and hot okay. And I think 218 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: a lot of us microwave our food when we get home, 219 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 2: and a lot of time it's in the packaging. So yeah, 220 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: that's not good. 221 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: And the reason for that is because plastics and also 222 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: paper and board are what we call non inert materials, 223 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: which means that the chemical structure of these materials is 224 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 3: not fixed. The chemicals inside the material are not bound 225 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: and they don't stay in the material. They're kind of 226 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 3: able to float and move and migrate into the food. Right. 227 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 3: So when you expose these not in their materials to 228 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: lots of heat, the molecules move more. 229 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: Those molecules are cupis shuffling right on out of the 230 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: paper and into your meal. That's wild to me. One 231 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: of my friends told me that she got rid of 232 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: all her plasti tupperware and only uses glass. Hmmm, she 233 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: might be on the something. 234 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: She's ahead of her time, and Justin agrees. 235 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 3: A really simple thing to do to avoid exposure to 236 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 3: chemicals and food packaging in general is to instead use 237 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 3: what we call inert food packaging materials, and the most 238 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 3: common examples of this are standless steel, glass, and many 239 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 3: kinds of ceramics. 240 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: We wanted to learn more about some of the environmental 241 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 2: and health impacts of pi fas. According to Justin, there 242 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: are two factors that go into a risk assessment. One 243 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: isposure to our chemicals, so how likely are we to 244 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 2: come into contact with it? And number two is the 245 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: hazard of the chemical, so is it going to cause 246 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: an adverse effect on my body or the environment? 247 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 3: First of all, the exposure part. The fact that pifos 248 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 3: are so stable in the environment and they don't necessarily disappear, 249 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: means that the exposure to them is potentially very long term. 250 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 3: And there's been multiple what are called biomonitoring studies, which 251 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: measure fluids in our bodies. Usually it's blood or breast milk. 252 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 3: There was a study from the German government just a 253 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 3: few years ago and they measured twelve different types of 254 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 3: pifos in the blood of over one thousand children that 255 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: were aged three to age eighteen during the second half 256 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: of the twenty tens dozen fifteen, twenty seventeen, and they 257 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 3: found that one hundred percent of those thousand children all 258 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 3: had detectable levels of piphos. Right, this very classic pifos 259 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 3: in their blood, and the other pifos they looked for 260 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 3: were also detected as well, all lower levels. 261 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: You know, this reminds me of a movie that talked 262 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: about some of this stuff. What it's The Hulk, Mark 263 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: Ruffalo he's in this movie that talks about p foss basically. 264 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: Exactly Dark Waters. It was about DuPont and their production 265 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: of non stick coatings, and those nonstick coatings had p 266 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: foss in it. And what happened to a town that 267 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: was located near that factory. So they experienced a lot 268 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: of runoff into their water and a lot of people 269 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: got sick, and there was some folks that also died 270 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: because of their exposure to these chemicals. This is a 271 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: true story that was not fiction, that was real, and. 272 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: It had me looking at my nonstick skillet like at 273 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: two brute and it seems like we need to look 274 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: at everything, your zip lock bag, the rapper like rope, 275 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: I mean, just everything. Justin told us there are lots 276 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: of studies measuring p FOS exposure in the environment. 277 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: Most commonly, they measured groundwater. They measured ocean water around 278 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 3: the world. Big ships went around, took water samples off 279 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: the side of the boat, checked for PFOSS concentrations. 280 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: And these studies are measuring PFOS in groundwater, ocean water. 281 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: One study even measured p FOSS in the blood of 282 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: Arctic seals. I hate to tell you, but the results 283 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: showed that there were pipots in both the ocean water 284 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: and in the blood. 285 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 3: And the concentrations change over time, so we can see 286 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: when a chemical has been phased out. We can watch 287 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: the concentrations in ocean water slowly decrease. 288 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: So it's not all bad news. What we can see 289 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: is when a chemical has been phased out, you can measure, 290 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: you can detect the concentrations decreasing over time, slowly but surely, 291 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: and scientists saw this by measuring ocean water in the 292 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: pfos in it. 293 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: Justin told us about another study from just last year, 294 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: so twenty twenty one, where they tested the breast milk 295 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: of fifty mothers and they were able to detect p 296 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 2: FOSS in every single one of their breast milk and 297 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 2: overall they found sixteen different p FOSS chemicals. 298 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 3: This included what are known as shorter chain compounds that 299 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 3: were used or created to replace kind of these legacy 300 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: older p FOSS chemicals like pfos and P four. So 301 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: it's not only just these older ones we've phased out 302 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: that are being detected. There's also the newer generation. And 303 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: that's exactly what everyone should and wants to avoid. You 304 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 3: don't want to replace a hazardous chemical with another one 305 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: that's also hazardous. 306 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: Yes, you heard that right. Folks are in the lab 307 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: making new p FOSS materials that might not be able 308 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: to be detected by the technology that's currently available. But 309 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: there are some good guys out there that are working 310 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: really hard in the lab to develop alternative materials that 311 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: aren't hazardous. 312 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: So it's clear that humans and our environment are being 313 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: exposed to p FOSS regularly. 314 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: We've found it in our blood, it's in breast milk, 315 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: it's everywhere. 316 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: It's even in the Arctic Circle. What come are we 317 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: doing with pfos up there? So now that we've covered 318 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: the exposure factor, let's get into the hazard factor. Justin 319 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: told us that studying the hazards is a bit complicated. 320 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: It requires a lot of testing and there are many 321 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: endpoints that indicate impact. 322 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: Over the years, various pfos have been reported assigns of 323 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 3: literature to be associated with various different health effects that 324 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: were adverse. It doesn't apply to all chemical or one chemical, 325 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 3: but there's been reports of associated metabolic and cardiovascular disease 326 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: and verse developmental effects and fetuses and children, and there 327 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 3: was a more recent study that looked into PFOS exposure 328 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 3: and the effects on the immune system function, especially in 329 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: the context of antibody responses to vaccines. This became a 330 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 3: topic with the COVID vaccine, and there was some evidence 331 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 3: to show concern that PFOS exposure, at least some of them, 332 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 3: may contribute to reducing our ability for immune systems to function. 333 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: This is wild. 334 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would have never guessed that PFOS and the 335 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: OVA vaccine would overlap in any way. 336 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't like it. 337 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: It's scary, it really is. 338 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: When we consider the body of research on p fos. 339 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Remember Justin told us there are over forty seven hundred 340 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: types of known p fos, and they're kind of different. 341 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: They're really different, actually. But when we consider where the 342 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: most research is on pfos, there are two most popular ones, 343 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: and they are p FOA and p FOS. 344 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 3: They've been investigated for decades and after lots of lots 345 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 3: of research, they were found to be persistent and harmful, 346 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 3: and they were banned globally under the United Nations Stockholm 347 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: Convention for almost all uses worldwide, So except for very 348 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 3: very few uses that are limited, they're just not allowed 349 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: to be used everywhere. 350 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: The United States signed the treaty but has yet to 351 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: ratify it, so legally nothing has to be enforced. 352 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 3: It's really difficult to study sometimes the effect of these 353 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: chemicals because it's not possible or even ethical to do 354 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 3: science experiments on people. Right. We can't just expose someone 355 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: to a chemical and see if they get sick or 356 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 3: have some disease in twenty years, So instead scientists have 357 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: to rely on doing animal studies, often with mice or rodents, 358 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: to really understand what the effects could be. We also 359 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 3: use what we call in vitro studies, so in petri 360 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: dishes looking at bacteria, or using computer models comparing the 361 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: properties of a chemical to other chemicals to see if 362 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: we expect the effects to be similar. And there are 363 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 3: recent studies looking at various pfos that link them to 364 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 3: different endpoints, including more developmental effects in these rodents, reducing 365 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 3: their birth weight, reduced survival rate of some of the 366 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 3: rodents that we're exposed. There's kind of an increasing level 367 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 3: of concern for this group of chemicals, has more and 368 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,360 Speaker 3: more people look into all these different endpoints. 369 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: So this is wild because multiple things are happening here 370 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: as soon as somebody says, Okay, we've identified this type 371 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: of PFOS that is harmful, the company says, all right, 372 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: slight change new chemical. So if you're still looking for 373 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: old chemical X, people are now using chemical Y. And 374 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: does that even matter anyway because that treaty hasn't been ratified. 375 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: I have questions exactly. 376 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: So these companies are doing whatever they got to do 377 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: to a skirt skirt the regulations and still get what 378 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: they want, which is us consuming their products at a 379 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: high rate so they can get those dollar dollar bills. 380 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: So if we know this, I mean somebody has to care, right, 381 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: Are there any policies or industries that are responding to this? 382 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: What are folks doing to address these issues? 383 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 3: So in the EU, at least, there's a law that 384 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 3: the manufacturers of food packaging are legally responsible that their 385 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 3: food packaging is safe. Now, the exact way that they 386 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 3: ensure that they're safe isn't always exactly clearly prescribed based 387 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 3: on the food packaging material type, and for paper and 388 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 3: board food packaging in the European Union there's not currently 389 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: what's called harmonized regulation. Plastics, for example, have a much 390 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: more detailed regulation with a very specific list of chemicals 391 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 3: that can and cannot be used. Paper and board does 392 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: not yet have harmonized regulation for this that gives exact guidance. 393 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: But it is the legal responsibility of the food packaging 394 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 3: manufacturer that the product that they put on the market 395 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 3: is safe. 396 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know if I trust these big 397 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: businesses to do us right, you know what I mean, Like, 398 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: that's a lot of responsibility and what that responsibility means 399 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: changing your processes, which means you might be spending more 400 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: money on packaging. So if you're spending you know, a 401 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: dollar on food per packaging and now you have to 402 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 2: go up to a dollar fifty, that's a big change 403 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: if you're selling you know, millions of burgers wrapped in 404 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 2: that packaging. 405 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: They're saying, it feels like some competing interests there, you know. 406 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 2: Yes, and if it's not enforced or it's not regulated 407 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: like that, just as talk about the European Union. I 408 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 2: don't know what they're doing in the United States, but 409 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: I have a feeling it's not always the right thing. 410 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: Mm Because there are just so many of these pifos. 411 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time and resources to test 412 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: every one of the. 413 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 3: Chemicals that can take years to complete the test needed 414 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 3: on one end point or multiple endpoints. So there's a 415 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 3: growing call from lots of different stakeholders and consumer health 416 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 3: organizations especially to look at pfos as a group and 417 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 3: apply what's called the precautionary principle, which means, if we 418 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 3: don't have data yet to absolutely determine that a chemical 419 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 3: is safe or is not safe, we don't just assume 420 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: it is. We need to err on the side of 421 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 3: safety and rather be precautionary and not take unnecessary risks 422 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 3: with chemicals we don't understand enough about. 423 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. I would rather err 424 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: on the side of safety when it comes to these 425 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 2: chemicals that are essentially going to end up inside of 426 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: my body and bloodstream and everything. 427 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: In the EU, there's a political initiative gaining traction called 428 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: the Chemical Strategy for Sustainability. It outlines goals for improving 429 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: chemical safety in the next few years, and that includes 430 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: p fos. 431 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: There's a group of five member countries in the EU 432 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 3: that are developing a restriction proposal that's going to try 433 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: and propose to restrict or ban pfos as an entire 434 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: group from entire uses without having to spend the time 435 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 3: to locate chemical individually. And there's a lot of people 436 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: who are really big proponents of this because they see 437 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 3: it as being precautionary and also much more effective than 438 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 3: playing what some scientists like to call whack a mole. 439 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 2: And there's been similar movements on p FOS concerns in 440 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: the US too. The federal government is starting to look 441 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: at p fos and drinking water, but on a state level, 442 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 2: individual states like New York, Maryland, Washington, Connecticut, Vermont, Minnesota, 443 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 2: and a few others are addressing p fos, including those 444 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: found in food packaging, through legislation. 445 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: This has been seen as good from a lot of 446 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 3: consumer health organizations. It's led to a bit of confusion 447 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 3: and a bit of chaos, unfortunately, of course, because each 448 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 3: of these states, they're not necessarily coordinating with each other. 449 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: They're all setting different requirements for which chemicals are allowed, 450 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: what kind of reporting manufacturers have to give them to 451 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 3: be able to sell food packaging in their state. The 452 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 3: timelines are different when these new laws come into force, 453 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,400 Speaker 3: and this has really created a headache for a lot 454 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: of the food packaging manufacturers we've spoken to who really 455 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 3: don't know what to expect. 456 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: This is a great point. You know, nothing's going to 457 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: happen overnight, so it could take a long time for 458 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: us to see the effects of these new laws because 459 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: a lot has to change. So let's take a break 460 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we'll get into how companies 461 00:24:35,880 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: are responding to p fosts concerns. We're back before we 462 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: jump into today's lab, let's talk about next week's lab. 463 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: Next week we're talking about how minds Change. We're talking 464 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: to David mcrainey his book How Minds Change, Blew My 465 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: Mind and also totalus Dopamine isn't what we think it 466 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: is and it's actually involved in changing your mind. Make 467 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: sure you check this lab out next week. 468 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 2: All right, let's get back to the lab. We've been 469 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 2: talking with Justin Bouchet all about pfos, what they are, 470 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: how they impact the environment and our bodies, and the 471 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: policy response. But what about the food industry. How are 472 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: companies addressing pifos. There's still a lot of unknowns when 473 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 2: it comes to PFOS research, and there are a few 474 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: reasons why that is. One is that many companies want 475 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 2: to protect their intellectual property and are reluctant to share 476 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: the exact chemicals that they're using to come up with 477 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 2: their products. And like we learned in our episode on nails, 478 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 2: regulations on disclosing chemical use and safety vary widely across 479 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: industries and regions. 480 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: Said earlier, there are a lot of different laws that 481 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: are in progress in different states, So like, what should 482 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: we be expecting, How are companies adjusting? 483 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 3: It's going to take these companies time. They serve millions 484 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 3: and millions of pieces of food packaging a day around 485 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 3: the world, so to change their whole supply chain, work 486 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 3: with their suppliers and make that switch to non p 487 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 3: FoST food packaging is a big effort for them. 488 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: Justin told us it's also important to look at the 489 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: fine print to see if companies are addressing PFOS in 490 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: all stages of the supply chain, not just the consumer 491 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: facing packaging. 492 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: Right, your food has to go through multiple steps or 493 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: it ends up at the pickup window. 494 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: Is there packaging or material with PFOS in it during 495 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 3: the processing of the meat or cutting of the potatoes 496 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: and shipping it? Betwe manufacturers, and so far we haven't 497 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 3: seen so much discussion about those upstream uses of food 498 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: contact materials and I think that's really a next step 499 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 3: that these big players are going to have to start 500 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 3: talking about. 501 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a very good point. 502 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we've been focusing on food packaging, but there's 503 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: a lot of that happens before it gets into that rapper. 504 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: Honey, you know what I'm thinking about. You ever bought 505 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: like a sleeve of burger patties and there's like that 506 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: little thin piece of paper with something, Yeah, what's on that? 507 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: And we said earlier on in the episode that you 508 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: can also find it in metals. And so when we're 509 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: thinking about any of the machines that are used to 510 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 2: grind up meat, to cut up slices, to do anything, 511 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: there potentially could be pifass in those metals. 512 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: Nobody been saying nothing. Yeah, conveyor belts, oh Ben, I 513 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: don't want to think about my food on the conveyed 514 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't want my. 515 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: Back, big big vats. All of these things are coming 516 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: in contact with your food, and you have to think 517 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: about that. 518 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna know my next chicken's name. 519 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: Ah, Henry, you've been good to me. This has been 520 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: a lot. Okay, to be fair, and you might be 521 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: tempted to panic because it's very overwhelming, and it feels 522 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 2: like there's literally nothing we can do. PIFAs are everywhere, 523 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 2: They're all over us, They're all up in our business, 524 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: and we can't escape. But Justin says that we shouldn't 525 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: panic and it's not totally on us to manage pfas. 526 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 3: I really want to avoid people from panicking and feeling 527 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: hopeless and thinking that this is their responsibility. It's not 528 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 3: something that the consumer should feel like they have to 529 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 3: take on and be responsible for controlling. This is something 530 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: that the manufacturers of the products that are sold to us, 531 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 3: and our governments that have mandates to protect public health 532 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: are responsible for ensuring. 533 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: Justin says that the solution to PIFAs might be bigger 534 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: than simply trying to replace pfos with less harmful chemicals 535 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: and instead considering a completely different food packaging system. 536 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: I think it's time that we start to think about 537 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 3: ways that we can improve the system at its core, 538 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 3: rather than trying to play catch up and design new 539 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: chemicals just to stick with the same kind of life lifestyle. 540 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: If you think about single use products like paper and 541 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 3: plastic wrappers and plates and cups, fifty years ago, we 542 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 3: were relying on reusable materials. We were relying on reuse, 543 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 3: you know, we were using ceramic plates and restaurants and 544 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 3: glass containers. And this change towards this convenience, throwaway lifestyle 545 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 3: is really when we started to see this environmental pollution 546 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 3: start to begin. And then now we're also discussing all 547 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: these issues with chemical exposures. 548 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: This is such a great point that Justin is making 549 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: reusable containers is nothing new. I mean, when we were kids, reduced, reuse, recycle, 550 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 2: you know the thing, and it's the original way that 551 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: things were done. I mean, for real, plastics only really 552 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 2: started becoming really popular in the nineteen sixties. It had 553 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: been around for a lot longer, but not a part 554 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: of every single person's everyday lives. Do we really need 555 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: to rely on single use packaging for every meal and 556 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: every delicious treat? 557 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: You better pour that juice into a glass, get that 558 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: capri sun out of here. But there's also trade off 559 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: with all of this stuff, you know, packaging. Some things 560 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: that we may consider convenience are often really useful for 561 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: folks to prevent waste. On the other hand, right, so 562 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: you may want only one bell pepper or one avocado. 563 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: You brought something to my attention. TT this new technology 564 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: that really puts p FoST to shame. 565 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, I recently saw an article in Scientific American that 566 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 2: talked about a spray on wrapper that is completely biodegradable, antimicrobial, 567 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: and it should help with reducing the amount of plastic 568 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: waste that we have. So the research was out of 569 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: Harvard and they created this device that sort of acts 570 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: like a cotton candy machine and it covers the food 571 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: and this fiber that washes away when you're ready to 572 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: eat the food. Probably won't work for a sandwich, but 573 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: it will work for your fruit. 574 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: That is very very cool. 575 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 2: And we've also started seeing a lot of food brands 576 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 2: that are making the switch to other non pfoss chemical alternatives, 577 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: and that includes the company that owns Burger King called 578 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: Restaurant Brands International. They have promised to remove all pifos 579 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 2: from their guest facing packaging by twenty twenty five. So 580 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 2: there's a lot of efforts that are being made in 581 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 2: the food industry to help decrease our exposure to pfos. 582 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: We are only here because we are chemicals, right. Chemicals 583 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: themselves are not the problem. Chemicals make our health and 584 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 3: our world possible, but we have to develop and manage 585 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 3: and think about how to use them responsibly and not 586 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 3: just short sighted. You know, we need to think long 587 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: term about how do we develop, create, and use chemicals 588 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 3: and when are new types of chemicals really essential? 589 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 1: Well, you heard the call. It sounds like we need 590 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: more chemists, more engineers, more smart folks to think about 591 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: how to solve these problems. 592 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 2: And we also need to make sure that the folks 593 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: that are making the decisions about what is going into 594 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 2: this packaging that they know that we know. Okay, we 595 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 2: see you, and now we're not going to let them 596 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: off the hook that easy. We as consumers are going 597 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: to be checking in and making sure that they're very 598 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: transparent with the chemicals that they're using in our food packaging. 599 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: It's time for one thing. 600 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: I gotta admit, this lab made me think about things differently, 601 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: and my one thing is going to focus on this 602 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: new device that I got as a gift, and it's 603 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: called the low Meat. The low Meat allows you to 604 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: put your food scraps and waste into this little bucket 605 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: and it basically simulates decomposition. You can add these little 606 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: microbial tablets to it if you want to, but it 607 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: just breaks down your food with heat and grinding into 608 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: basically soil. And every time I am stunned. Wow, and 609 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: the soil even changes based on what I put in. 610 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: I put a lot of leftover fried rice and orange 611 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: chicken in recently, and I said, ooh, that was greasier 612 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: than our thought. 613 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: So you can use that soil to then put it 614 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: in my plate. I guess that's what compost is. But 615 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 2: every time I'm like, no, you can't do this is alchemy. 616 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: My one thing this week is for everyone to kind 617 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: of look up what they have locally to be able 618 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: to start composting if it's something that sounds interesting to you. 619 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 2: So locally for me, there's Compost Crew also another organization 620 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 2: called Apex Organics. So I really encourage everyone to just 621 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 2: do a quick Google. If you're thinking about composting or 622 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 2: wanting to reduce the amount of waste that you have 623 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: coming out of your home, do a quick Google search 624 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: and find your local compost company. 625 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: That's it for Lab seventy four. Call us at two 626 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: zero two five six seven seven zero two eight and 627 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: tell us what you thought, or give us an idea 628 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: for a lab. We should do this semester. We'd like 629 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: hearing from you, and I especially want to hear what 630 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: kind of reduce, reuse, recycled strategies you're using in your home. 631 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: That's two zero two five six seven seven zero two. 632 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 2: Eight special thanks to today's guest expert, Justin Bouche. 633 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: You can find Justin on LinkedIn, and you can learn 634 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: more about the Food Packaging Forum at Food Packagingforum dot 635 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: org or on Twitter at FPF Foundation. 636 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 2: And don't forget that there is so much more to 637 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There'll be a cheap cheat 638 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: for today's lab, additional links and resources in the show notes. 639 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 2: Plus you can sign up for our newsletter. Check it 640 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: out at Dope Labs podcast dot com, and you can 641 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 2: find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast. 642 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho. 643 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 2: And you can find Zakia at z said So. Dope 644 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 2: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Ownmedia Group. 645 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny Ratleitmask and Lydia Smith of WaveRunner Studios. 646 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 2: Editing and scoring by Rob Smerciak and Griffin Jennings, be 647 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 2: mixing by Hannes Brown original music composed and produced by 648 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: Taka Yasuzu and Alex Sugier from Spotify. Creative producer Miguel Contreras. 649 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Yasmine, afifikmu Ilolia, 650 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: Till crack Key, and Brian Marquis. Executive producers from Mega 651 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: Own Media Group are us T, T Show Dia and 652 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley.