Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, home of the
Speaker 1: modern white tail hunter and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyan, and this week on the show, I'm joined
Speaker 1: by author writer in total outdoorsman T. Edward Nikins to
Speaker 1: discuss what it actually looks like to live a life
Speaker 1: dedicated to hunting, fishing, and conservation. All right, welcome to
Speaker 1: the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light.
Speaker 1: We're here for another episode in our Conservation Month series. Now,
Speaker 1: so far we've learned about issues specifically related to white
Speaker 1: tailed deer conservation. In their last year, we've explored the
Speaker 1: conservation legacy and philosophies of Although Leopold, and most recently,
Speaker 1: we dove into the particulars of grassland conservation, the impacts
Speaker 1: that has on deer and other wildlife, and recent attempts
Speaker 1: to protect these landscapes and animals. Now today we're gonna
Speaker 1: zoom out to the general but I guess at the
Speaker 1: same time we're kind of diving right in to the
Speaker 1: heart of the matter. What I mean by that is that,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's been pretty clearly established that
Speaker 1: if we want to enjoy deer and deer hunting and
Speaker 1: open space and all these other things we enjoy outdoors.
Speaker 1: If we want to do that, it's on us to
Speaker 1: help conserve and protect these things in the future. But
Speaker 1: how the hell do we actually do that, especially when
Speaker 1: it's seeming like, you know, there's there's so many challenges
Speaker 1: out there facing the natural world, and are hunting lifestyle
Speaker 1: not to mention all the other bs that we've got
Speaker 1: going on in our own lives that we need to
Speaker 1: deal with and figure out. So how can we actually
Speaker 1: make a difference. How do we make the time time
Speaker 1: for it? How do we figure out what's worth doing
Speaker 1: and what's not. How do we do something that matters?
Speaker 1: You know, we hear all the time about how we
Speaker 1: need to be conservationists, but what does that actually look
Speaker 1: like in real life? This is what I want us
Speaker 1: to explore today. And joining me for this conversation is
Speaker 1: t Edward Nikins, more commonly known as Eddie Nikins. Now
Speaker 1: Eddie's Life, I think is a perfect illustration of this
Speaker 1: lifestyle we're trying to put a finger on. I want
Speaker 1: to understand what it looks like to live a life
Speaker 1: dedicated to hunting and fishing and conservation. Look no further
Speaker 1: than Eddie Nikkins. Eddie is a long time outdoor writer,
Speaker 1: with much of his work focused on conservation related issues.
Speaker 1: He's been prominently featured in magazines from Field and Stream
Speaker 1: to Garden and Gun, to Audubon and The Smithsonian. He's
Speaker 1: the author of the best of the Total Outdoorsman, the
Speaker 1: Total Life Manual, and recently the phenomenal collection of hunting
Speaker 1: and fishing essays, The Last Wild Road. On top of that,
Speaker 1: he's also a National board member for back Country Hunters
Speaker 1: and Anglers. More importantly, though, this is a guy who
Speaker 1: just absolutely loves to hunt, fish and recreate outside and
Speaker 1: he's done a ton of it. He spends his life
Speaker 1: doing these kinds of things, and he's also thought long
Speaker 1: and hard about how he can work to keep these
Speaker 1: opportunities around. But he's not just thought about. He's actually
Speaker 1: gone ahead and taking the many small steps necessary to
Speaker 1: try to make this a reality. And short, I think
Speaker 1: from what I see, from what I've read, from what
Speaker 1: I'm picking up from him, I think he's found a
Speaker 1: way to incorporate this, this idea of a conservation ethic
Speaker 1: into his daily life. This is the terrain we're setting
Speaker 1: forth into now, so sit back and enjoying my conversation
Speaker 1: with Eddie Nikins. Alright here with me now on the
Speaker 1: line is Eddie Nikins, Eddie Well from the show. Hey,
Speaker 1: good to be here. Mark. I really appreciate you making
Speaker 1: the time to do this. You've you, like I mentioned
Speaker 1: before we started recording, I've been reading your work for
Speaker 1: years and years and years now like so many other people,
Speaker 1: and uh, it's just a real treat to get to
Speaker 1: finally talk to you in person and uh and kind
Speaker 1: of picked your brain. So thanks for making the time
Speaker 1: to do this. Yeah, and I appreciate you not saying
Speaker 1: that you've been reading my work for decades and decades,
Speaker 1: which it could have been. It could have been the case,
Speaker 1: but let's not doing U. Yeah. I don't want to
Speaker 1: date you too much there, but but yes, I uh,
Speaker 1: I don't know what year it was that your first
Speaker 1: articles and Field and Stream came out, but I know
Speaker 1: it's been a long time ago and I was picking
Speaker 1: them up back in oh, probably the mid nineties is
Speaker 1: when I probably was paging through those first issues when
Speaker 1: I was seven or eight maybe. Um, so I know
Speaker 1: you've been putting your print on that magazine for a
Speaker 1: long time and continue to and many other places. So
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a fan. I'm a big fan of of
Speaker 1: the written word and the way you've done it. So
Speaker 1: I'll try not to nerd out on the writing thing, though,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of people out there that probably
Speaker 1: aren't as interested in the craft of writing as I am.
Speaker 1: So I won't get into that, but I will get
Speaker 1: into the topic of your writing, Eddie. Um, since everyone
Speaker 1: listening isn'to hunting and fishing in the outdoors. But I
Speaker 1: guess that that kind of sets up the first thing
Speaker 1: I was curious about, because you've done You've done a
Speaker 1: whole lot over the years, Eddie. You've you've written, of course,
Speaker 1: and a number of different formats, but you've also done
Speaker 1: videos and some digital stuff and and TV hosting and whatnot.
Speaker 1: So so I'm curious about this, Eddie. When you're at
Speaker 1: a dinner party, let's say, and you meet somebody new
Speaker 1: and they ask you, you know, Eddie, what do you
Speaker 1: do for a living? How do you answer that question
Speaker 1: to a new person who who doesn't have any context,
Speaker 1: who's not a hunter or angler like you are, necessarily,
Speaker 1: how do you how do you approach that one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's an interesting an interesting point with a with an
Speaker 1: obvious answer mark right. Um, that's what I consider my
Speaker 1: job and my craft. Uh, and my that's who I am. Um.
Speaker 1: And so I don't say I'm an outdoor writer. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a writer, and I do make part of
Speaker 1: my living doing other things, although it all tends to
Speaker 1: be centered on some sort of word expression, whether it's
Speaker 1: video or script writing or but I'm a writer and
Speaker 1: that's what I say. Um. And the reaction to that is,
Speaker 1: you know, what are you write? And then we'll go
Speaker 1: into running into the fishing and the outdoor travel. But
Speaker 1: you know, I tell people that I just I love stories,
Speaker 1: meaningful stories, and they just happened to be they happen
Speaker 1: to be told through the lens of the hunting and fishing. Um.
Speaker 1: And that kind of takes us into some interesting conversations
Speaker 1: from there as you can imagine that that's that's what
Speaker 1: I am. I am a writer. And there have been
Speaker 1: tim's when I they're the last, certainly with the digital revolutions. Um,
Speaker 1: if I wanted to be something different, but man, I've
Speaker 1: come back to I think that's what I'm put on
Speaker 1: this put on this planet for is to string words together.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna indulge myself here a minute, Eddie,
Speaker 1: and everybody else listening will have to bear with me.
Speaker 1: But you're you're a storyteller, You're a writer. But but
Speaker 1: like you said, you tell, you tell good stories. You
Speaker 1: enjoy stories, you enjoy the craft of good stories. So, Eddie,
Speaker 1: what what makes a good story? Mm? Hmm? What makes
Speaker 1: a story that I want to tell? I guess I'll
Speaker 1: answer maybe that question is a story that is sort
Speaker 1: of larger, sort of larger than the sum of its parts. Um.
Speaker 1: For for some reason, I'm drawn to every day seems.
Speaker 1: I've done a lot of adventure travel. I love that,
Speaker 1: and and still still do remote places and and sort
Speaker 1: of out of the way spots. But man, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: drawn moments when you're when you're water, and small happens
Speaker 1: that you realize is just the point of it all. Um.
Speaker 1: And I think folks have noticed that I've had great
Speaker 1: reaction from readers. Who's who's responded positively to these these
Speaker 1: small moments that just stick with you. Um. So, how
Speaker 1: how the every day sort of resonates and amplifies every
Speaker 1: day in terms of, you know, an ordinary hunt, an
Speaker 1: ordinary sit in a tree stand, what makes what makes
Speaker 1: it so extraordinary? Beyond beyond just the privilege of being
Speaker 1: of being able, being able to do that. I remember
Speaker 1: I wrote this piece, I called it Planet Tree Stand,
Speaker 1: and it all turned on a moment when my daughter
Speaker 1: was sitting with me and the tree stand and she
Speaker 1: and she later head on my shoulder, and I thought,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know we're here physically removed, and
Speaker 1: this moment of connection with this little eight or nine
Speaker 1: year old girl and everything that was going on around that,
Speaker 1: from bonding with your child, from introducing them to the outdoors.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if I look for
Speaker 1: those moments more, but they just I just know when
Speaker 1: it happens, um And that's that's what I like to
Speaker 1: write about. If you've been, if you go, if you
Speaker 1: travel with me much at all, you will you will
Speaker 1: see these times happened when I just check out and
Speaker 1: I grab a pin or at a pad and sit
Speaker 1: down on a rock, or about the about the streamer
Speaker 1: on the cool seat and the skiff, and and I'm
Speaker 1: just writing. I'm just writing curiously because it's just I
Speaker 1: know that this is of that's happened. That's that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: I was curious if you could recognize those moments in
Speaker 1: real time or if it was only later when you
Speaker 1: sit back down at your desk and you think back
Speaker 1: over your last week, that all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: recognize these moments of of universal experience or something. So
Speaker 1: so it's interesting to here you can think you're kind
Speaker 1: of tuned into it even in the moment. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it does happen in the moment now I am.
Speaker 1: I am very, very fortunate to write for magazines that
Speaker 1: are committed to good writing and pay for good writing.
Speaker 1: So on the back end of that, you know, a
Speaker 1: week or two or three months later, you know, if
Speaker 1: it takes me it takes me six hours to craft
Speaker 1: the paragraph, I feel like I can do it. And
Speaker 1: so that's a that's a rare thing, and that's a blessing.
Speaker 1: And I'll called my editors and bosses for good in
Speaker 1: me that for giving me that space. But it does
Speaker 1: frequently happen in the moment. I've traveled a lot with
Speaker 1: my son, particularly Jock and and and he knows uh,
Speaker 1: and he'll steel sort of tell people just you know, writer,
Speaker 1: just just this way even mind, Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And I had a pallet buddy Scott would and we
Speaker 1: all over the place, Alaska and Labrador and back in
Speaker 1: these long to do trips, and even he knew, Um,
Speaker 1: I'd always have to paddle because at any moment, white water,
Speaker 1: what are you mean, I might put the paddle down
Speaker 1: and start to scribling. So it's fun to see it.
Speaker 1: It's fun to see it happen. Yeah, that's the That's
Speaker 1: the great thing about being a writer is that every
Speaker 1: moment in life has the potential to be a story,
Speaker 1: at potential to be material. Uh. It just seems to
Speaker 1: be a matter of having your eyes open to it.
Speaker 1: At least That's something I've kind of learned as I've
Speaker 1: gotten deeper into this. Is is just trying to maintain
Speaker 1: a sense of awareness about everything going on around you,
Speaker 1: because there's there's material there if you're open to it. Um.
Speaker 1: But speaking of speaking of stories, before I go too
Speaker 1: far down this whole rabbit hole of of writing and storytelling,
Speaker 1: which I'm personally fascinating, I do want to I want
Speaker 1: to shift towards the main reason why I want to
Speaker 1: chat with you, Eddie, and and we talked about this earlier.
Speaker 1: It's this idea of of how to live a life
Speaker 1: in which you not only enjoy the natural world as
Speaker 1: a hunter or angler, but but how do you live
Speaker 1: a life in which you can reciprocate that enjoyment in
Speaker 1: a way. And and I read a story of yours
Speaker 1: the other day, and I wanted to read an excerpt
Speaker 1: from that story and then kind of get your thoughts
Speaker 1: on this, because I think it nicely ties into what
Speaker 1: I want to get at here. Uh, this story of yours.
Speaker 1: I think this is in your new book, The Last
Speaker 1: Wild Road, which is a collection of your your stories
Speaker 1: and essays over the years, which is tremendous. Um you
Speaker 1: were talking about this invitation you got from a friend
Speaker 1: to go fish the best cutthroat stream in America, and
Speaker 1: your friend took you there. He swore you to secrecy,
Speaker 1: and he ended up having a fishing trip that lived
Speaker 1: up to the hype. At the end of the stories
Speaker 1: You're hiking out, I think you described this. You said,
Speaker 1: I tried to parse my sense of near euphoria. It
Speaker 1: wasn't that I caught the largest cutthroat I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Wasn't that I proved myself tough enough to get into
Speaker 1: a rough place and fish well and get back out again,
Speaker 1: even if I limped that last mile to the truck.
Speaker 1: It was that my friend found me worthy of his
Speaker 1: spot and trustworthy of his secret. He was willing to
Speaker 1: take the chance and take me the there, and know
Speaker 1: that I would walk out and speak little of the
Speaker 1: details of that valley and bury the memory of the
Speaker 1: trail deep, and burn the shovel, forget the photos and
Speaker 1: the fish tails. He knew I'd never forget what was
Speaker 1: most worth remembering that a place like that still exists,
Speaker 1: the fact that those places still exist today, Eddie, What
Speaker 1: does that? What does that mean to you? How much
Speaker 1: does that matter? Well, you know, I remember, I remember
Speaker 1: that very very well. You know. It's all the difference,
Speaker 1: all the difference, Mark, And I'm going to circle by
Speaker 1: in a moment to what we were talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: about the more mundane aspects more every day, because a
Speaker 1: lot of what really matters is how we respond to
Speaker 1: a place, you know, whether it's your back forty or
Speaker 1: whether it's the Buna beyond as this as this place was.
Speaker 1: But what what matters I think looking looking at it
Speaker 1: thirty five years of rioting and working in conservation is
Speaker 1: that these places they're not there by accidents. They're not
Speaker 1: still untrammeled places by by accident. There was, it was
Speaker 1: thought there was a cost um. Society was willing to
Speaker 1: bear that cost at great, at great cost, a Great
Speaker 1: Smoking Mountains National Park, which is earned some fabulous book
Speaker 1: trout fishing. There they were. There were hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 1: of people who were forcibly moved from those mountains to
Speaker 1: create that national park that we that we just think
Speaker 1: was just always there and whild and I have I
Speaker 1: have interviewed old old women who remember their mother's I
Speaker 1: mean the front ports rails of their little shots in
Speaker 1: the Smokies as the sheriffs were literally pulling them off
Speaker 1: of their porches to evict them so we could have
Speaker 1: this wild place. No, I'm not saying we should we
Speaker 1: should do that. I'm not saying it was like. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying it was wrong. I'm just saying that America
Speaker 1: has shown itself capable of great sacrifice for wild places
Speaker 1: and now we want them at no cost, at no
Speaker 1: inconvenience to anyone. But we don't we don't realize what
Speaker 1: it took to to set the aside, to set aside
Speaker 1: these places. And so when I go to a place
Speaker 1: like that stream, um, when I hear other people who
Speaker 1: go to places that are just still so wild, the
Speaker 1: first thing that comes to my mind was we all
Speaker 1: we all paid for that. America paid for that, Society
Speaker 1: paid for that. And what are we willing What are
Speaker 1: we willing to do? Now? You know, what are we
Speaker 1: what costs are we willing to bear? No matter what
Speaker 1: that cost looks like, whether it's more toxes, whether it's funding,
Speaker 1: whether it's a social cost, what are we willing to
Speaker 1: do to keep these places wild? Because they all came
Speaker 1: initially at got a cost. Yeah, yeah, I like uh,
Speaker 1: I like the point I heard you make. Well, you
Speaker 1: made a you made a point just now about it's
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily how wild the places, but more how
Speaker 1: the place, however far it is off the pavement, impacts you.
Speaker 1: And and I've heard you in the past talk about how,
Speaker 1: you know, how we might go about defining back country
Speaker 1: in different ways. While somebody in Montana might define their
Speaker 1: back countries eight miles off the road, someone maybe in
Speaker 1: you know, urban Michigan, closer to where I live, might
Speaker 1: be eight paddle strokes down the river, and they had
Speaker 1: that that feeling, that sense of being away from it all,
Speaker 1: and how each of those things is awfully valuable in
Speaker 1: its own way. Um, But but I agree with you
Speaker 1: that it is. It's it's vital that we still have
Speaker 1: those wild places in whatever form we need them. But
Speaker 1: I'm curious you haven't been around this now for decades, Eddie,
Speaker 1: and paying attention to these places, and and the costs
Speaker 1: that were required to have these places. How confident are
Speaker 1: are you given what we've seen in recent years, given
Speaker 1: the trajectory we might be able to forecast looking into
Speaker 1: the future, how confident are you that we'll still have
Speaker 1: places like that for let's say you're potential grandkids someday.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm starting to think about that. I have
Speaker 1: two young children my own, and I'm looking at what
Speaker 1: are the will they still have? What opportunities will they
Speaker 1: still have? Will they still have that incredible secluded valley
Speaker 1: to hike into? Will they still have that river that's
Speaker 1: clean and accessible for them to paddle down? Someday? Um?
Speaker 1: How do you feel about what this world might look
Speaker 1: like twenty years from now? For a year, kids and
Speaker 1: their families you know it's not it, yes, answer, I
Speaker 1: mean the answer is only if, only, only if generation
Speaker 1: and the next generations put their shoulders into the same
Speaker 1: traces that the earlier generations do, and only if we're
Speaker 1: willing to work work for that um and the challenges,
Speaker 1: the challenges are great, but they were you know, they
Speaker 1: were great. They were great in the nineteen teams and
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, you know, when the Southern appal actions
Speaker 1: were clear cut, where when you know every duck and
Speaker 1: shore bird coming down the Atlantic coast was imperil dat
Speaker 1: you sold in the market or put on a ladies hat.
Speaker 1: So we we've had giant, enormous landscape spilled challenges in
Speaker 1: the in the past, um, and we certainly have them
Speaker 1: in the future. And I think looking at what's happened
Speaker 1: in the last five or ten years with an upswelling
Speaker 1: of the new voices of new energy, of new passion
Speaker 1: that are willing to willing to work wild places, ye
Speaker 1: willing to to write their legislators, willing to get out
Speaker 1: there and pick up trash and pick up the slack
Speaker 1: and fund organizations. You know you have to have you know,
Speaker 1: it's you have to be an optimist have to be.
Speaker 1: You have to have that that feeling that there's there's
Speaker 1: positive movement, and I mean there is, there's there's great
Speaker 1: positive I'm a I'm a huge supporter and our North
Speaker 1: American board member by country Hunters and Anglers, and that's
Speaker 1: only one organization that is out there, uh stemming the
Speaker 1: stem in the rising tide against our poet lands and
Speaker 1: and pot wildlife. So I am uh, I am hopeful
Speaker 1: that the Daunting ask Um, because pessimism is gonna will
Speaker 1: just suck, will suck the gas the gas tank dry.
Speaker 1: So we just we just can't be pessimistic. We have
Speaker 1: to be We have to be optimistic and looking at
Speaker 1: looking at the the new generation. And you're my kids
Speaker 1: are twenty two, my son's twenty crew, my daughter's twenty five, um,
Speaker 1: and they're great kids that they are involved alves and actors.
Speaker 1: I know, we hear a lot about gen X and
Speaker 1: gen Z and millennials and whatever, but man, my kids
Speaker 1: and there and their peers, they're they're not gonna sit
Speaker 1: by left and left the world go to hell. Um.
Speaker 1: They're they're out there doing doing their part, and they've
Speaker 1: got tools that that we didn't have UM, so what
Speaker 1: do you think kids and my grandkids are going to
Speaker 1: have these are going to have these wild places? Maybe
Speaker 1: not as many, um, but I don't know. I hope
Speaker 1: that few of public lands that we're seeing now there's
Speaker 1: not a lot more land that can be domain, but
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that we haven't seen the last wild places
Speaker 1: UH put into put into public ownership. So you just
Speaker 1: can't you can't stop, You just can't mark, you can't
Speaker 1: give up, and you can't give up hope. So that
Speaker 1: that's where I that's where I am with it. But
Speaker 1: I do I do feel positive when I see the
Speaker 1: younger generation is coming up. They're smart, they're committed, they're passionate, um,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna they're gonna make an impact. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's true. I agree with you. There's there's
Speaker 1: definitely this this swell of enthusiasm and and you starting
Speaker 1: to care about these things. And I don't know, kind
Speaker 1: of curious about where that where that comes from for people,
Speaker 1: I mean for for myself. You know, I didn't have
Speaker 1: parents or anyone who was preaching to me the value
Speaker 1: of these places, or maybe they weren't preaching to me
Speaker 1: that I needed to take action, that I needed to
Speaker 1: be a conservationist, that I needed to care about environmental
Speaker 1: causes or or the or or public lands and access
Speaker 1: to them, all that kind of stuff. But they did,
Speaker 1: They did instill in me this sense of respecting nature
Speaker 1: and respecting wildlife and taking care of those things we had, um,
Speaker 1: and and treating the world with with care and respect.
Speaker 1: So so I had that, but it wasn't for you know,
Speaker 1: many many years later of being a hunter and angler
Speaker 1: and kind of you know, consuming and taking and just
Speaker 1: wanting to you know, being out there being a fun hug.
Speaker 1: I guess you could say. It took me till I was,
Speaker 1: you know, in my early twenties, and as I got
Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into hunting, I was discovering, you know,
Speaker 1: books like a Sand County Almanac, or reading some thing
Speaker 1: or uh, whatever it might be. I kind of had
Speaker 1: this the slow realization that if I was going to
Speaker 1: keep on enjoying these places and these these wildlife and
Speaker 1: and these experiences out there, that if I was going
Speaker 1: to take and take and take, I had better start
Speaker 1: giving giving giving back. UM. But that took me a
Speaker 1: long time to get there. I'm just curious for you, Eddie,
Speaker 1: what does that look like for you? Did Can you
Speaker 1: recall when that shift happened for you? Or was it
Speaker 1: from day one that you were thinking about these things?
Speaker 1: Was there a moment, like a light switched moment where
Speaker 1: you all of a sudden started to look at this differently?
Speaker 1: What was that that story like for you? You know
Speaker 1: it was a it was an well to yours mark,
Speaker 1: not on the same on the same track. I didn't
Speaker 1: grow up, you know, fishing family. I've told this story
Speaker 1: a number of times before. Um al there early on,
Speaker 1: I was actuated with hunting and fishing, and I've never
Speaker 1: even met a hunter. I've never even seen a gun. Um,
Speaker 1: But you know, read the magazines and fielding stream and
Speaker 1: sports and fields and out of the license. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until my and I wanted to hunt and fish so badly.
Speaker 1: I remember on a family trips and my family did camp.
Speaker 1: Um my brother and I were laying in the back
Speaker 1: of the family's nineteen seventy three Ford Pinto station wagon.
Speaker 1: You didn't have to have seat ballots. You laid back
Speaker 1: there and you know, made jokes and pointed this and that,
Speaker 1: and I looked out and there was a We're driving
Speaker 1: through the country, done on interstate, driving through the country,
Speaker 1: and I and I saw three stand wearing am wearing
Speaker 1: a blaze orange vest, just a teeny little pinprip and
Speaker 1: I I remember asking myself, well I ever hunt? I
Speaker 1: could see no pathway to that would would that ever
Speaker 1: be experience? I remember that clearly. And so when my
Speaker 1: father died and a friend from the church took me
Speaker 1: under his wing and introduced me to this world, what
Speaker 1: I recall, yes, belief that it had happened, utter disbelief
Speaker 1: that I was now a hunter. And I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: that level attitude and gratefulness and instead stilled us believe.
Speaker 1: I still feel the day more when I look at
Speaker 1: aspects of my life, when I look at the career
Speaker 1: that I've had, it's this feeling of Holy prod, How
Speaker 1: how did this happen? So my approached the conservation from
Speaker 1: that feeling of gratitude UM and being so incredibly lucky
Speaker 1: to be here that I wanted to make sure I
Speaker 1: did nothing to tarnish the heritage UM. And I was
Speaker 1: interested in history, and so I threw myself into the
Speaker 1: history of conservation, in the history of colonial nactural history
Speaker 1: in the United States, and so mine came from a
Speaker 1: different ways. It evolved into this generalize awareness of conservation
Speaker 1: movement and activism and advocacy and how we pull the
Speaker 1: levers of power in this country, But it was rooted
Speaker 1: in this just cannot freaking believe I get to do
Speaker 1: what I what I can do as a career, you know,
Speaker 1: but as and every day hundred angry. Everybody should have
Speaker 1: that faith. Everybody should feel like, holy moly, I get
Speaker 1: to do this. You know, I'm not in the King's woods.
Speaker 1: I get to do this. And if you approach it
Speaker 1: from that perspective of gratitude, how could how could you?
Speaker 1: How could you not do anything? But I want to
Speaker 1: perpetuate that kind of wondering all for the next generation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty a pretty remarkable ah inheritance. I think
Speaker 1: that we have to enjoy here now and and that
Speaker 1: that that idea of of wanting to perpetuate it. I
Speaker 1: think that is something that's shared by many many people
Speaker 1: these days. Um, but I think what is um, what's
Speaker 1: the common reaction to that once we once someone has
Speaker 1: this realization of source where they realize, oh, wow, this
Speaker 1: is this thing that it was very costly for us
Speaker 1: to to have, whether it be public lands or thriving
Speaker 1: wildlife populations or clean rivers, whatever it might be. I
Speaker 1: think we I've seen and heard and talked to so
Speaker 1: many people that you know, get to whatever point in
Speaker 1: their life it is where they realize, oh wow, this
Speaker 1: is a privilege that we have, and they recognize that,
Speaker 1: and they realize that it requires work and care to
Speaker 1: maintain that. You get this very common next question, which is, well,
Speaker 1: what in the world can I do about it? How
Speaker 1: do I how do I do something about it? I
Speaker 1: mean this, it's just never seems to be a question
Speaker 1: that's going to go away. We hear about some new crisis,
Speaker 1: we hear about the next problem, we hear about the
Speaker 1: the umpteenth example of something going down the tube, and
Speaker 1: you sit there and you worry about it, or you yea,
Speaker 1: you looked down at your feet and you yeah, you're
Speaker 1: bummed about it. But then you think to yourself, what
Speaker 1: could I possibly do to make a difference about it?
Speaker 1: As it just a little old meat? Um, how did
Speaker 1: you how did you approach that early on in your life,
Speaker 1: when you when you first started diving into this history
Speaker 1: and learning about you know environmental activism and and the
Speaker 1: people that came before us. Earlier in your career, as
Speaker 1: you started exploring these questions and these obligations, maybe we
Speaker 1: could say, how did you try to tackle this at
Speaker 1: that point in your life. I'm curious to kind of
Speaker 1: compare how your first steps might have been different than
Speaker 1: maybe what you are thinking and in actions are now,
Speaker 1: if if at all, Um, how did you first approach that? Man?
Speaker 1: That's a good one, um, I think initially right good
Speaker 1: that the first great act of change is do no harm.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I could have articulated it early on,
Speaker 1: but I do remember that early on in the law
Speaker 1: following the rules, will you agree with them or not? Was?
Speaker 1: It was just importing me? And that was that was
Speaker 1: drilled into me by by my mentor Keith Gluesome. He he.
Speaker 1: I don't know that that Keith do as much as
Speaker 1: I did at one point about the history of conservation
Speaker 1: law and all that, But he knew that that limits
Speaker 1: that regulations and ethics. They were there for a reason.
Speaker 1: He was a very disciplined human being and he he
Speaker 1: he did it still still that into me, and I
Speaker 1: kind of I was brought up in that excuse me
Speaker 1: the old school way of Remember the first time he
Speaker 1: asked me to go squirrel hunting, I thought, hot, Damn'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna just brain brain lad on these squirrels.
Speaker 1: And you know he nevery of course, he never let
Speaker 1: such a gun. You know, it was three or four
Speaker 1: weeks or but you know, we had to go through
Speaker 1: this process, you know, and wow, that was that was
Speaker 1: That was a great, a great lesson. Um So doing
Speaker 1: no harm, I think, is the first thing we could
Speaker 1: do that and that means obeying every single game fish law.
Speaker 1: Where do you like or not? What do you agree
Speaker 1: with him or not? What do you think you're stupid
Speaker 1: or not. They're there for a reason, a scientific reason.
Speaker 1: But they're there for another reason, which is side rails
Speaker 1: on our behavior. So we know when we've stepped over
Speaker 1: the line. And so you know, I was, I was.
Speaker 1: I called grief about this all my life. Not know
Speaker 1: I'm not shooting at the time, dove limits for til
Speaker 1: I'm not shooting. I'm not shooting. Third thing, I just
Speaker 1: I just wasn't gonna be. I have a good excuse.
Speaker 1: Now if I get caught, you get caught. If I
Speaker 1: get caught, this this. No, it's it's no good. But
Speaker 1: I'm not even tempted trespassing good. I mean, I'm playing.
Speaker 1: I was brought up a good, a good boy from
Speaker 1: the South. I would not you know, when I went
Speaker 1: to North Dakota freelance duck hunting still and we still
Speaker 1: not bear to step on a piece of unposted land
Speaker 1: that we knew we had legal access to without asking
Speaker 1: about our conformation. We just couldn't bring umself. We couldn't
Speaker 1: bring ourselves to do it. Uh. And so I think
Speaker 1: that's part of it, Mark, is we all have to
Speaker 1: we have to do no harm. We have to we
Speaker 1: have to make sure that nobody ever says, I, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know he's that that that guy he jack lights tonight.
Speaker 1: We know that that that would undo every every positive
Speaker 1: thing you did. I say, that's the that's the starting point.
Speaker 1: But we've we've got to have these new hunters coming
Speaker 1: in our fold. Was just fabulous. It's even a morning
Speaker 1: coming upon us to set that good example because they
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, they don't they don't know why
Speaker 1: you have to plug your shot done for three shots
Speaker 1: when you're hunting my tweed birds. Um, they don't know
Speaker 1: what the Pittman robertson active is and why that is
Speaker 1: so critical to the nature, to the country's environmental infrastructure.
Speaker 1: UM And So I think it's not incumbent on all
Speaker 1: of us to be to be those kinds of teachers
Speaker 1: and mentors and good examples. UM And I think if
Speaker 1: you're not willing to do that be in this game.
Speaker 1: I think we've gotten to that point. If you're not
Speaker 1: willing to be a positive influence, you don't need to
Speaker 1: be in this game. All H agree with that. Uh.
Speaker 1: And it comes back to um And it's something that
Speaker 1: I've brought up a couple of times recently. I read
Speaker 1: this book a few weeks ago or a month or
Speaker 1: so now ago, called Braiding Sweet Grass, and the author
Speaker 1: was speaking of this, UM, this idea, this philosophy of
Speaker 1: of reciprocity with the natural world, UH that had come
Speaker 1: from her background as a as a Native American, and
Speaker 1: this idea of of giving back, of of if we're
Speaker 1: going to take something, we need to give back an
Speaker 1: equal and UH. And I feel like that's that's a
Speaker 1: perfect example of what you're talking about. UM and and
Speaker 1: something that I just think about a whole lot more
Speaker 1: now than I ever used to and and maybe it's
Speaker 1: just because I have been able to enjoy so many
Speaker 1: more of these things as I as I learn more
Speaker 1: and explore more and now having kids and thinking about
Speaker 1: all that too. Um. But I I guess that next
Speaker 1: thought then is if if the starting point is being
Speaker 1: you know, doing no harm yourself, doing the right things, um,
Speaker 1: following the law, and then next is helping other people,
Speaker 1: mentoring other people, being a good example for other people,
Speaker 1: helping educate folks, um, helping other people experience these special places, um.
Speaker 1: And you've been doing that for years and years and years.
Speaker 1: Now what's that? What's the graduate level work now that
Speaker 1: you are that you've experienced now over the years now
Speaker 1: having been within this world and caring about these things
Speaker 1: for a long time. Now, what's what's it look like
Speaker 1: to be a hunter and angler and conservationist in real life?
Speaker 1: And additionally just described, I mean, what what kinds of
Speaker 1: things over the course of a year, Eddie do you
Speaker 1: do that are inspired by this this uh, this this
Speaker 1: this care and cause that you now seemingly have a
Speaker 1: life for al drum I'm I don't want to count
Speaker 1: b h A too much here more, but that's that's
Speaker 1: where a lot of my lot of my time and
Speaker 1: effort and sort of psychic energy go right now. UM,
Speaker 1: because I do think that I do think that Drew
Speaker 1: uh has his finger on the on the pulse or
Speaker 1: something that's super important and super timely. UM. So I
Speaker 1: think I think the answer is going to differ for
Speaker 1: different different people. I was I was in Louisiana Little
Speaker 1: Buddies of mine a couple of months ago, fly fishing
Speaker 1: for for big bull drum and marshes, and I was
Speaker 1: going I was going to I was gonna skiff a
Speaker 1: friend who has done pretty well, UM, got some resources,
Speaker 1: and he asked me, he said, I write, you know,
Speaker 1: a twenty five dollar check, two fifteen organizations, some of
Speaker 1: them are right a hunderd dollars. That that was his involvement,
Speaker 1: and he his question was similar to your. He asked me, said,
Speaker 1: is that is that what I should be doing? Is
Speaker 1: that a useful way of spending my tie back to
Speaker 1: the conservation world? And my response to him was absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a great way to to to be involved.
Speaker 1: I said, but you know, you may want to think
Speaker 1: about one or two groups that really took off the
Speaker 1: boxes for you that are really close to your heart
Speaker 1: and maybe able to think about having a larger impact there,
Speaker 1: drive that area deeper. Um and you know, and that
Speaker 1: was the That was the end of the conversation. And
Speaker 1: then four or five days later he sent me a
Speaker 1: copy of his life membership to b h A. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not saying this to underscore b h A.
Speaker 1: I'm saying it's to underscore how one person was thoughtful
Speaker 1: and intentional and took the next step. Not not that
Speaker 1: everybody wants to be a life member of an organization
Speaker 1: can afford to be a life merban organization. But these days, man,
Speaker 1: you can't swing a cat without hitting her an opportunity
Speaker 1: to go picked up trash and wildlife management area, or
Speaker 1: you go clean out a boat ramp, or uh go
Speaker 1: work on a TU project or store a stream. So
Speaker 1: you know, there's really no there's no excuse anymore for
Speaker 1: not being able to to get involved either at the
Speaker 1: hands get your fingernails dirty level or more of what
Speaker 1: I do, which is sort of working on policy and
Speaker 1: working on larger national issues with with b h A.
Speaker 1: M writing about wetlands conservation for conduction limited. So I
Speaker 1: think I think it's a great time to be alive,
Speaker 1: to speak in that vein. I mean you you could
Speaker 1: spend you can spend every waking hour volunteering for a
Speaker 1: valuable conservation projects in the hunting and fishing sphere. So
Speaker 1: we're very very fortun in that regard. What's that been
Speaker 1: like for you, Eddie since since getting more involved with
Speaker 1: b h A and of course be on the board.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a lot of people who have who
Speaker 1: have thought to themselves, So I wonder if I should,
Speaker 1: you know, take a larger role with an organization that
Speaker 1: I'm a member of. Maybe I could be a chapter leader,
Speaker 1: or be the secretary on my state board, or get
Speaker 1: involved with in this kind of leadership position or that
Speaker 1: leadership position, or or any kind of next level like that.
Speaker 1: How how has that been for you? How has that
Speaker 1: impacted how you look at these things and and your
Speaker 1: your impact. Yeah, well I'm secretary of the Median Board
Speaker 1: of Bretons for North American h A. So as far
Speaker 1: as being secretary of local chapter, I would say noted,
Speaker 1: duly noted. But you know it's people will tell you
Speaker 1: it's just a lot of fun, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: these though these groups are rod and gun clubs of
Speaker 1: you know, these are the groups where you meet tribe,
Speaker 1: where you meet like minded folks and you start off
Speaker 1: working on a conservation issue or or or a landscape
Speaker 1: that needs restoration repair, but you end up just making
Speaker 1: great friends. Um. He said. I would encourage anybody to
Speaker 1: look up to look to it for that. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think we all have something specific table. Um. Queen
Speaker 1: land Tawny asked me to join the h A board.
Speaker 1: What's been almost seven years ago. I was. I believe
Speaker 1: I was the first. I'm pretty sure I was the
Speaker 1: first from east, from the eastern United States. And I
Speaker 1: had worked with Land before the National Acceperation on some
Speaker 1: sporting out reach and it was intentional on his point,
Speaker 1: it was intentional for me to to to see that
Speaker 1: there was a role I could play in bringing a
Speaker 1: different perspective to that to that quickly growing group. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that that was that was my strength. You know,
Speaker 1: my strength is is not fundraising. Uh. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: an English major, So my strength is not anything to
Speaker 1: do with having a hammer in my hand. Um, but
Speaker 1: asking yourselves, you know, what what can you what can
Speaker 1: you bring the cable? Maybe it's a strong back, and
Speaker 1: we need a lot of strong bokes. And maybe it's
Speaker 1: a strong mind and we need a lot of strong minds.
Speaker 1: What what would just need more people on the strain.
Speaker 1: The more people on the strain, the better. What what
Speaker 1: have you? What have you found? You know, as you've gotten,
Speaker 1: as you've you've mentioned you've made a great point how
Speaker 1: this is the opportunity to kind of engage and find
Speaker 1: your tribe right, It's it's not just work. It's all
Speaker 1: so fun, but it gets you around like minded people,
Speaker 1: people that UM, people that care about the same things
Speaker 1: you care about. What have you learned from those people
Speaker 1: inside your tribe that you've now gotten more engaged with
Speaker 1: through b h A in your example, UM, it could
Speaker 1: be any other organization for someone else. But what's that
Speaker 1: been like for you? Have your eyes been open to anything?
Speaker 1: Have you been inspired by these people in some new ways?
Speaker 1: There is there anything that now years later you've discovered
Speaker 1: that you didn't know or hadn't experienced before taking that
Speaker 1: next step. I had no idea mark how many people
Speaker 1: we're willing to work so hard for this, I mean
Speaker 1: work so hard for this. We we started the North
Speaker 1: Carolina State Chapter b h A on my back deck
Speaker 1: at my house, and it was six of us. None
Speaker 1: of us knew anybody else. In degree we were totally
Speaker 1: each other. Not a single relationship existed. And to see
Speaker 1: that Greek, the tens of ours, the hundreds of ours,
Speaker 1: each one of them has put in to that state chapter.
Speaker 1: And again, this isn't about b h A. This is
Speaker 1: about a willingness to put your shoulder to the work.
Speaker 1: I have been honest at the level of commitment. And
Speaker 1: this goes back to our earlier conversation about where my
Speaker 1: optimism comes from. I mean, it doesn't come from politicians
Speaker 1: and policy. It comes from people who are willing to
Speaker 1: do the work, man who have heard the trumpet call.
Speaker 1: And I mean I've been involved in this, involved in
Speaker 1: this all my life practically, and I did not have
Speaker 1: I did not realize how how deep those passions ran,
Speaker 1: how much people were willing to put on the line. Um.
Speaker 1: I followed a group in Florida called Captains for Clean Waters,
Speaker 1: which is started by two captains, Chris Women and Daniel Andrews,
Speaker 1: who were nearly lost their will. The pretty much lost
Speaker 1: their their livelihoods for two years and some of the
Speaker 1: worst algebrings down there for and to see what that
Speaker 1: group has been able to do when they went all in,
Speaker 1: all in for wildlife, wild places and hunting and fishing.
Speaker 1: It's that's what's that's what's been inspiring that. That's why
Speaker 1: I do and it is I choose to be optimistic.
Speaker 1: I could choose to be testimist market where were that?
Speaker 1: What would that do? That would do nothing? So it
Speaker 1: is a choice, and I choose to be optimistic, and
Speaker 1: I choose remain involved, and I choose to working. And
Speaker 1: honestly I am And people who know me well would
Speaker 1: say I don't say this very often, don't really mean
Speaker 1: it when I do say it, but I mean it
Speaker 1: this time. I am humbled by aunt of work that
Speaker 1: other people do, the amount of time and endwors what
Speaker 1: I I mean. I could give you a list of
Speaker 1: many men and women in North Carolina you ought to
Speaker 1: be talked to the other than other kid with Nick
Speaker 1: smith Man. It is that still to inspire to see it.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm optimistic. Yeah, I love that. So, Uh,
Speaker 1: here's something I'm wondering about. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people wonder about because there are a lot of other
Speaker 1: folks like you mentioned who are willing to do the work,
Speaker 1: who are willing to sweat, bleed whatever it has to
Speaker 1: be done to make a difference. A lot of people, though,
Speaker 1: are pulled in a lot of different directions, many many
Speaker 1: different obligations, uh many many different folks emailing them or
Speaker 1: texting them or posting on Facebook saying help this cause,
Speaker 1: help this cause, help this cause. Right, Um. I think
Speaker 1: one of the things, one thing I worry about a
Speaker 1: lot these days is people just becoming fatigued by all
Speaker 1: the different issues they're being pummeled with over the head
Speaker 1: and told do this, do this, help us, help us,
Speaker 1: and and many many many of those are great, great causes,
Speaker 1: things that really do need help. But I worry people
Speaker 1: will become overwhelmed or just shut off because they are,
Speaker 1: you know, just flooded with it. Um. What I'm what
Speaker 1: I'm getting at, though, is what I'm curious about, is
Speaker 1: I think many people wonder how can they best utilize
Speaker 1: their time, like what's the most what's the highest r
Speaker 1: o I on their efforts? And given your vantage point
Speaker 1: being involved at the national level of b h A,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've you and the team there have spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time looking at and considering and looking
Speaker 1: at the data around. Okay, what's the action that makes
Speaker 1: that makes the most difference. What's the thing that really
Speaker 1: really you know, dials up the pressure on a on
Speaker 1: a congressman or a woman or something like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you when you look at that whatever review you
Speaker 1: guys have been able to do over the years, is
Speaker 1: there anything that has stood out to you and the
Speaker 1: rest of the board as far as the impact that
Speaker 1: you know, tweets versus phone calls, versus letters, versus showing
Speaker 1: up in person versus any other thing like that. Have
Speaker 1: you guys found something or some series of actions that
Speaker 1: are the most impactful when it comes to that kind
Speaker 1: of UH participation. What we've found is that engagement matters
Speaker 1: UM personally priving to me and we have a dh
Speaker 1: A been about trenching this data, figure out which levers
Speaker 1: were the best and win. And I've been even surprised
Speaker 1: at how much phone calls and emails and personal communications
Speaker 1: to legislators matter. UM. That's been that's been a that's
Speaker 1: been a big surprise. UM. I think hunters and anglers,
Speaker 1: particularly UH get frustrated dealing with state agencies at the
Speaker 1: game and fish level. Um, when they go to public
Speaker 1: hearings about regulations, UM and And I understand that, UM,
Speaker 1: But we can't let that frustration make us sit on
Speaker 1: our hands. Any engagement is better than no engagement. But
Speaker 1: being strategic about and being very personal when you contact
Speaker 1: your legislators, UM and representatives is important and it and
Speaker 1: it makes it makes a difference, absolutely makes a difference. UM.
Speaker 1: But man, there's no personal doubt. I mean that that
Speaker 1: is frustrating. You know, to send something off into the
Speaker 1: ether and think your senator is gonna be sitting there
Speaker 1: with his or her feet up our desk and read
Speaker 1: and it's going to change her mind. I don't know
Speaker 1: that it works that way, but that public and that
Speaker 1: public input works. And I think the other thing that
Speaker 1: we're finding out with with b h A analyzing this
Speaker 1: data and looking strategically at what works in the landscape
Speaker 1: is to actually start thinking bigger and broader. We're experiencing
Speaker 1: this in North Carolina where we have been dealing with
Speaker 1: this trickle of losing access to public trout waters in
Speaker 1: the mountains. And it's nothing catastrophic every year, but it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's a quarter mile here, mark, it's access
Speaker 1: there to boat rent there and and and we've been
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do we how do we
Speaker 1: stop that we turn that around? And we've been we've
Speaker 1: been looking at the at the micro level of this
Speaker 1: boat ramp or this landing and what what we can
Speaker 1: do um and we're starting to realize that we need
Speaker 1: to we need to move to the forest service level.
Speaker 1: We need to we need to be advocating in Atlanta
Speaker 1: at the regional office as much as we're advocating in Asheville,
Speaker 1: North Carolina at the at the at the that the
Speaker 1: smaller office too. I think we're starting to get more
Speaker 1: politically savvy. We're starting to get more plugged into how
Speaker 1: to make how to make a difference. But the most
Speaker 1: important thing is just to get off your hands and
Speaker 1: not sit on them, and and and be involved. And
Speaker 1: we all have our strengths. You know, I'm pretty good
Speaker 1: at writing letters, might not be so great at that
Speaker 1: at other things, but just be involved. I Mean it
Speaker 1: sounds so trite and so simple, but I see what happens.
Speaker 1: I've seen it in North Carolina students across the country.
Speaker 1: I've seen with b h A, I've seen with Duckston
Speaker 1: Linnen seen to you. Once you put your footing the
Speaker 1: road of working for wildlife, man, it's not list not
Speaker 1: long before you run in the full sprint. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: easy to do that when you have such a such
Speaker 1: an awesome thing to be fighting for something we love
Speaker 1: so much. Um, that's that's one thing we've really got
Speaker 1: going for. There's a whole lot of different political causes
Speaker 1: and things out there that people get fired up about,
Speaker 1: but I can't think of many others that are so
Speaker 1: darn rewarding just to be a part of it that
Speaker 1: we love so much. I don't know anyone who really,
Speaker 1: really really loves I don't know healthcare, but I know
Speaker 1: there's a whole lot of us that absolutely love sitting
Speaker 1: in a tree and watching a white tail go by,
Speaker 1: or standing in the river and watching a trout sipping
Speaker 1: on a mayfly. Um. That that's pretty darn motivating to
Speaker 1: get out there and try to make sure you can
Speaker 1: keep doing those things. But man, people and people want
Speaker 1: it so badly. Marked man. I was speaking at an
Speaker 1: event um South Carolina, the Southeastern Wide Exhibition a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago, and at the end of at the end
Speaker 1: of the talk, you walks up and engine line you
Speaker 1: know at the end, which his turn to chat, and
Speaker 1: he's just like, he's never hunted, he's never fished. He
Speaker 1: wants it so bad. He has no clue and no
Speaker 1: one in his life. The spellers here in his late twenties,
Speaker 1: you know, had disposable income, educated, articulate, no way to
Speaker 1: get into it. So I hooked him up with a
Speaker 1: with a local chapter of h A down and down
Speaker 1: the southeast. But there's when you see someone like that
Speaker 1: who wants what you have, who wants to experience what
Speaker 1: you can experience in the back country, or you know,
Speaker 1: just on the local farm park. They want it so bad.
Speaker 1: We we've got to get a way to to see
Speaker 1: those people, to get them, to get them inside of
Speaker 1: the circle. You know, this is a little of a
Speaker 1: left turn here, Eddie, But you bring up this fact
Speaker 1: that there are so many people out there who are
Speaker 1: interested in getting involved in this space that we occupy
Speaker 1: and that we've been able to enjoy over the years. Um,
Speaker 1: but there's a little bit of a m I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've you've seen it, you've heard you've you've heard people
Speaker 1: talk about this or seeing the articles over the last year,
Speaker 1: so especially since COVID just this significant influx of users
Speaker 1: on our public lands, and some folks saying, hey, you know,
Speaker 1: forget this whole hunter recruitment thing. There's too many people
Speaker 1: out there as it is. Or there's folks bemoaning changing.
Speaker 1: You know, out of state tag lotteries and stuff, and
Speaker 1: out of staters are flooding our states. So you know,
Speaker 1: Wyoming's cutting down on their you know, non resident tags,
Speaker 1: and Idaho is doing this and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1: All these is pointing to, you know, there's there's too
Speaker 1: many people. Let's stop trying to bring folks into the fold. Uh.
Speaker 1: What's your response to that sentiment that seems to be
Speaker 1: popping up here and there now, maybe more so than
Speaker 1: it was in recent years. Man, it's real. It's as
Speaker 1: real as earlier day. I was trying to find a
Speaker 1: camp site its National Park this summer, which is a joke. Laughter,
Speaker 1: there's no way. Um, it's a and it's something. So
Speaker 1: it's something that affects us all. Uh. Oh, man, it
Speaker 1: is a tough one. Do we really need more duck
Speaker 1: hunters on Jordan's Lake and the Piedmont in North Carolina? No,
Speaker 1: the ducks don't need it either. Um, but the reality
Speaker 1: is I don't know that we can turn this way. UM.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that the that the enormous surge
Speaker 1: during COVID that was driven by and the need for
Speaker 1: folks to get outdoors, that that I don't think was
Speaker 1: driven by the R three movement and the proactive ways
Speaker 1: that the hang and fishing industry has gone about uh
Speaker 1: its outreach graay games. So whether those folks decide maybe
Speaker 1: the back country is not in the place for them
Speaker 1: or not, I don't know. I think right now we
Speaker 1: need to sort of hold our breath and hold our
Speaker 1: tongues maybe, um, until we can figure out how to
Speaker 1: manage this this surge because I don't think anybody nobody
Speaker 1: saw it coming, and and I think we're having as
Speaker 1: an industry or or as a as a body of
Speaker 1: of public land users. Um, there's there's a little bit
Speaker 1: of shock to the system right now, I think. And
Speaker 1: it's not just in the West, it's in the East,
Speaker 1: and I mean it's everywhere. UM, So we're gonna have
Speaker 1: to figure out the future may very well look different
Speaker 1: from the past on some famous western trout rivers. That
Speaker 1: may look different than the past on southeastern coastal waterfowl,
Speaker 1: marshes um. But bringing educated uh and I don't mean
Speaker 1: school educated, but bringing in folks and educating them on
Speaker 1: the history of conservation, role of heating and fishermen, the
Speaker 1: American wallet movement. That's that's got to be a part
Speaker 1: of the solution. It's got to be a part of
Speaker 1: the solution. Now, I I follow your logic on that,
Speaker 1: but there might be some people who own't who don't
Speaker 1: see or maybe who haven't heard the explanation for why
Speaker 1: that's important. Can you just run us through simply, but
Speaker 1: why it is a good thing. Why we could use
Speaker 1: some more folks as a part of this community that
Speaker 1: understand what's going on, that participate in your mind, what's
Speaker 1: what's in it for us to to advocate for more
Speaker 1: of that? Well, wildlife public lands need instituency. They need
Speaker 1: people who are going to speak up for public lands
Speaker 1: and public wildlife and not just public but for private lands,
Speaker 1: for private wildlife initiatives. I mean, that's the that's the argument, right,
Speaker 1: that's the only argument. Of course, I want people to
Speaker 1: get to get to all and the wonder that I
Speaker 1: get from the outdoors. I mean, I want everybody want
Speaker 1: here is nothing not to feel that way. But look,
Speaker 1: I get I get this at the crowds. I get
Speaker 1: those issues. It's a it's a tough it's a tough
Speaker 1: place to be, um. But they're they're here now order
Speaker 1: that we turned them into people who do no harm
Speaker 1: and and and we turned them into outdoor users who
Speaker 1: are proactive and protecting the landscapes. Um. And if we
Speaker 1: if we say, you know, no, you would put up
Speaker 1: these barriers and skinses and saying you know, sorry, we're
Speaker 1: closing the barn door. Um, We're gonna turn these I mean,
Speaker 1: we risk turning these folks against the very values that
Speaker 1: we that we hold deer. But it's I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a tight right. I'm not gonna say it does suck. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean it does. And it's a it's a tough situation.
Speaker 1: And that's why I would just counsel what in your
Speaker 1: tongue and taken a step back, and let's see how
Speaker 1: all this looks in a couple of years. It may
Speaker 1: look very different. Yeah yeah not but it may it
Speaker 1: may not. Um, but we're not going to have fewer
Speaker 1: fewer people in the outdoors, There's there's no question. But
Speaker 1: you know what, what are we gonna what are we
Speaker 1: gonna do about western trout fishing? What we gonna do
Speaker 1: about the difft boat hatches on these rivers? I mean,
Speaker 1: these are these are serious, These are serious issues, and
Speaker 1: we're all and a lot of us, myself included. You know,
Speaker 1: we've we've had a long span of time where things
Speaker 1: were fairly static, and we've had more and more people
Speaker 1: in the outdoors. It's been going certainly in the in
Speaker 1: the in the trout fishing worlds. Um, but I'm not
Speaker 1: sure those are gonna be Are you gonna be back?
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have to figure it out and it
Speaker 1: might and it might be more regulations were permitted days. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that's only one of the challenges. We can talk
Speaker 1: climate change and whether patterns and urbanization, but we need
Speaker 1: to often answer your question, we need to take the breath, um,
Speaker 1: and see where the numbers fall in a year or
Speaker 1: two before we really make any decisions. So crowding of
Speaker 1: our wild places, whether it be public lands or even
Speaker 1: you know here in Michigan, all my buddies are constantly
Speaker 1: talking about how it's harder to get access to private
Speaker 1: land because the stuff they used to have knock on
Speaker 1: the door, permission you know now is leased up or
Speaker 1: five other guys hunted or whatever. So if it's overcrowding
Speaker 1: or access or you mentioned you know a series of
Speaker 1: other things there. Um, what is it that keeps you
Speaker 1: up at night looking forward? What concerns you? What issue
Speaker 1: or threat coming down the pipeline? Um is most concerning
Speaker 1: to you when you look into the future as far
Speaker 1: as impacts on wildlife and wild places and the ability
Speaker 1: to hunting fish. I I think more there's gonna be
Speaker 1: a lot of folks that don't agree with me on this.
Speaker 1: The pressures of development and industrialization are so great that
Speaker 1: whatever is not fine okay held by the public um
Speaker 1: is going to be a greater gay risk. So I'm
Speaker 1: an advocate for more public lands. I'm an advocate for
Speaker 1: increasing acres, increasing I mean, that's that's part of the
Speaker 1: solution to more and more people. So what what concerns
Speaker 1: me greatly as the the best your public lands, um,
Speaker 1: whether it's in the west or whether it's in the east. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's a that is a that's a huge concern. Um.
Speaker 1: If we had more where more people could room more freely.
Speaker 1: It's it's just a win win on a number of
Speaker 1: on a number of categories. And this takes us back
Speaker 1: to that conversation of what what are we as an
Speaker 1: American society willing to sacrifice? What are we literally willing
Speaker 1: to pay two increase the storeholder natural treasures that we have.
Speaker 1: So that's part of the solution. That's maybe the time
Speaker 1: sky mark, but that's one thing that I that I
Speaker 1: see the climate change. I spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: on the coast, and that's that's frightful as well. Um,
Speaker 1: but just having enough, having enough, why in the room
Speaker 1: appreciating that, That's to me, that's the That's one of
Speaker 1: the bigger issues and just one of the issues that
Speaker 1: I think we can we can make some moves on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well that that simple idea of simply protecting more habitat
Speaker 1: addresses a lot of the impacts of all the other things. Right,
Speaker 1: if if we're talking climate change and warming waters, or
Speaker 1: animals needing to change, you know, need to migrate to
Speaker 1: different areas well, having more land protected solves that. If
Speaker 1: we're talking about overcrowding, well, having more land solves that.
Speaker 1: U if we're talking about impacts of over harvest or
Speaker 1: over fishing or industrialization or anything like that. Well, more
Speaker 1: protected space helps with that, UM. But how I think
Speaker 1: the question is like how it sounds pretty darn good.
Speaker 1: I mean, people talk about the the recent thirty by
Speaker 1: thirty UH ideas and proposals, right, trying to conserve of
Speaker 1: our land by the year sounds great and principle. I
Speaker 1: love the idea of it, um, but how do we
Speaker 1: actually get there? Are you aware of any actual ideas
Speaker 1: or proposals or initiatives that people like us can get
Speaker 1: involved with to help make something like that happen. Well,
Speaker 1: those are big policy issues that are gonna be driven
Speaker 1: at the higher levels. But but we do see some
Speaker 1: positive movement in that, you know, with the RAVA, with
Speaker 1: the covering Americans. While I laugh with um land ward
Speaker 1: conservation fund issues, we see people willing to step out
Speaker 1: on this on this funding side. UM. So again asked
Speaker 1: what kept me up at night? And that's what kept
Speaker 1: me up at night. Um, I'm not sure that I
Speaker 1: know the solutions to to that, other than to keep
Speaker 1: to keep chipping away at it um and and then
Speaker 1: goes back to the do no harm. Every acre we
Speaker 1: we lost lose the is two acres we have to
Speaker 1: gain just to take half a step forward. So protecting
Speaker 1: what we have is the first, the first step of that.
Speaker 1: But there've been there've been opportunities, certainly on the state level,
Speaker 1: h in various states where there have been some increases
Speaker 1: in public layers acquisitions. So working to identify those getting
Speaker 1: involved in groups that are that are working to advocate
Speaker 1: for those would be would be the first step. And
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a dulting it's a dulting task.
Speaker 1: But there's so much that we can do that's not dualting.
Speaker 1: There's so many you know, we can get involved in
Speaker 1: so many other levels, uh, and feel like we're making
Speaker 1: a difference. Yeah, yeah, you know this, Um it makes
Speaker 1: me think of a piece I read of yours you
Speaker 1: were writing, might have been earlier this year. Last year
Speaker 1: you were writing about the recent die off of manatees
Speaker 1: in Florida, which is just astounding. I think I saw
Speaker 1: recently that now it's a quarter of all manities. And
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I think
Speaker 1: of all the manities in Florida died over the last
Speaker 1: twelve months. Yeah, within a space of a year. Just shocking.
Speaker 1: And then and there's there's examples kind of like that
Speaker 1: all across the world, seemingly every day of something different
Speaker 1: like that that's happening. It's it can be if you
Speaker 1: allow yourself to become negative and to get depressed, it
Speaker 1: really can take you there pretty quickly. Um, so you were,
Speaker 1: you were writing about this, and you're you're trying to
Speaker 1: process all that. And I want to quote another thing
Speaker 1: you wrote here because I found it pretty powerful. Uh.
Speaker 1: You wrote this, you said, speaking of Florida, what truly
Speaker 1: afflicts this incredible state is what afflicts us all the
Speaker 1: twenty one century version of apathy, our click through mentality,
Speaker 1: our tendency to breeze by and scroll through the ails
Speaker 1: of our time. I don't know how to heal Florida,
Speaker 1: but there are things I can do join engage right lament.
Speaker 1: Uh that really resonated with me, and I gotta believe
Speaker 1: it resonates with a whole lot of other people. Um
Speaker 1: what what else would you add when it comes to
Speaker 1: battling this temptation of apathy to just scroll through and doom,
Speaker 1: scroll through Instagram or Facebook and shake your head and say, God,
Speaker 1: this is the world's going to hell in a handbasket
Speaker 1: and then flip back on Netflix and keep watching the
Speaker 1: next episode of the Office. Uh what what would you
Speaker 1: leave us with when it comes to avoiding that temptation
Speaker 1: and doing something different? Three easy words, Martin, Right, this
Speaker 1: is you off the most? What impacts you the most?
Speaker 1: If every hunter anger across the country, in every region,
Speaker 1: every habitat type answered that question for themselves and picked
Speaker 1: their fight and put their passion, in their time and
Speaker 1: their resources into that one fight, it would it would
Speaker 1: turn in the time, it would eliminate and inoculate all
Speaker 1: of us if we pick the one fight. Wise words, Well, Eddie,
Speaker 1: I plan on trying to do just that. I appreciate
Speaker 1: everything you've shared, you know, over the years, and your
Speaker 1: articles and taking the time here chat with me about
Speaker 1: about all this. It's um it's encouraging to to be
Speaker 1: able to look to someone like you as a model
Speaker 1: for for what we can all do in our own lives.
Speaker 1: And uh, man, I just I appreciate it, can you? Well?
Speaker 1: These are these are overly kind words, Mark, and I
Speaker 1: appreciate you doing all that you have to bring these
Speaker 1: issues to to the forefront. Well, thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for that as well. I gotta give you an opportunity
Speaker 1: though here Eddie, to tell folks about your book which
Speaker 1: came out. I guess it was last fall. Maybe, UM,
Speaker 1: can you tell folks a little bit more about this
Speaker 1: book that I've I've quoted a couple of times here
Speaker 1: now and I've been reading it. I've read your articles
Speaker 1: over the years that many of them are featured in here.
Speaker 1: I've picked up new ones now since I'm reading the
Speaker 1: physical copy. But tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 1: The Last Wild Road and where folks can can pick
Speaker 1: this up and and dive further into these experiences that
Speaker 1: have that have formed you and inspired this this land
Speaker 1: ethic that you have. Yeah, thanks for Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: The Last World Road came out in May, published by
Speaker 1: Lions Press, and it's a collection of five stories that
Speaker 1: I've published in Field and Stream over the last eighteen
Speaker 1: years or so. About half of those pieces are my
Speaker 1: short columns column that that runs in every issue for
Speaker 1: the magazine for the last twelve years. List the content
Speaker 1: or long or long features. Um. Colin Kearns, the editor
Speaker 1: chief of Field the Stream, and I worked worked really hard.
Speaker 1: We're very very proud that book. Um. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of really personal stories in there, a lot of adventure stories,
Speaker 1: but some of the pieces that you quoted, Mark, are
Speaker 1: you know, examples of those moments where I've just been
Speaker 1: sort of all struck by my place in this in
Speaker 1: this industry, by the experiences I've had. But a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff is back forty far off the highway,
Speaker 1: places and experiences that that a lot of hunters and
Speaker 1: anglers have. It just give them given a lot of fuel.
Speaker 1: So it's available on Amazon. It's that I've seen any
Speaker 1: bookstores all over the place, So yeah, I have a
Speaker 1: coffee and take their read Last Wild. It's good stuff.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend it to anyone listening if you if
Speaker 1: you need to escape from the drudgery of the office
Speaker 1: or your cold winter backyard, or wherever it is is
Speaker 1: ailing you right now, this is a great way to
Speaker 1: to get out there and hunting fish through the page.
Speaker 1: And uh, you do a great job of transport. It's
Speaker 1: all there. So I hope there's I hope there's future
Speaker 1: books in your future, Eddie, because I've really enjoyed this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there will be. Thanks, thanks very much for
Speaker 1: the kind of words, and with that, Eddie, I will
Speaker 1: shut this down and let you get back to whatever
Speaker 1: fun outdoor activities you've got coming down inline for yourself. Yeah. Man,
Speaker 1: well I appreciate it very much. So alright, so there
Speaker 1: you have it. As I mentioned already, be sure to
Speaker 1: pick up a copy of Eddie's book, The Last Wild Road.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's great. And then from there, man,
Speaker 1: let's get to work. Let's work to do no harm.
Speaker 1: Let's try to reduce our waste. Let's consume a little
Speaker 1: bit less. Let's be a good example. Let's mentor others.
Speaker 1: Let's teach our friends and family about the outdoors. Let's
Speaker 1: get involved with some local conservation organizations. And then let's
Speaker 1: also try to be active with national issues and legislation.
Speaker 1: Let's write letters and make the phone calls when we're
Speaker 1: called upon to do so. Let's try to give back
Speaker 1: to these wild places and animals that have given us
Speaker 1: so much. Every little step, every action, each decision we
Speaker 1: make to try and do the right thing. It matters.
Speaker 1: At least, That's what I'm telling myself, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stick to it. So I hope you will too. I
Speaker 1: hope you will continue on this journey with me. I
Speaker 1: appreciate you so until next time thank you, get outside
Speaker 1: and stay wired to hunt.