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Speaker 1: Hey, it's Nikki. I wanted to give you a heads

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Speaker 1: up that this episode will touch on police brutality, violence,

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Speaker 1: and sexual assault. You'll hear some tips for navigating interactions

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Speaker 1: with the police and some incredible gems of wisdom from

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Speaker 1: a woman I really respect. But we are not giving

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Speaker 1: official legal advice in this episode. If you or someone

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Speaker 1: you love has been affected by any of the themes

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Speaker 1: in the show, we've left some links in the description

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Speaker 1: that offer resources and support take care of yourself. One

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Speaker 1: of the questions that victims received the most, whether it's

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Speaker 1: from journalists, lawyers, or organizations shying away from accountability, is

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Speaker 1: why didn't you report it? The answers can be long

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Speaker 1: and complicated, but they often boil down to fear. In

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Speaker 1: Nico Quinn's case, it was the fear that no one

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Speaker 1: would believe her.

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Speaker 2: I was young, I was in the streets, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: educated on the law.

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Speaker 1: In Rose McIntyre's case, it was the fear of retaliation.

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Speaker 2: If I did not do Wegguleupski wanted that he could

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Speaker 2: arrest greg or me, or both of us.

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Speaker 1: If there's one thing we've learned in this series, it's

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Speaker 1: that there's power in speaking out like the brave women

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Speaker 1: of Kansas City did, but I understand why people don't.

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Speaker 1: It's a topic of conversation We've had quite a few

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Speaker 1: times at Justice for Why Not, including with lawyer Lauren Bonds.

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Speaker 1: She's on our board and it's also the executive director

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Speaker 1: of the National Police Accountability Project.

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Speaker 3: I grew up black in Kansas. I went to law

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Speaker 3: school knowing I wanted to do social justice work and

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Speaker 3: be an advocate for communities and people who were trying

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Speaker 3: to make things happen, trying to make change, but we're

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Speaker 3: running into legal barriers. I didn't know exactly what that

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Speaker 3: would look like and what kind of work I'd be doing.

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Speaker 3: But that was the reason I went to law school

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Speaker 3: and I stuck with it.

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Speaker 1: As she began to practice law in the field, Lauren

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Speaker 1: found herself drawn to certain cases.

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Speaker 3: The work that I was always most passionate about was

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Speaker 3: the work on behalf of people who had been harmed

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Speaker 3: by the police or in prisons, in jails. I always

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Speaker 3: felt those clients felt like family, they felt like people

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Speaker 3: I knew, and I always just kind of had the

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Speaker 3: most passion for their cases.

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Speaker 1: She joined the National Police Accountability Project, a nonprofit dedicated

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Speaker 1: to ending law enforcement abuse through legal action and educational programming.

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Speaker 1: Lauren is their executive director and she spends her days

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Speaker 1: working on stories like the ones we've heard. But as

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Speaker 1: someone who grew up in Casey K, she knows just

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Speaker 1: how intimidating speaking out can be.

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Speaker 3: Casey K is a very insular into great, integrated community

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Speaker 3: where you absolutely could face retaliation, and I think that

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Speaker 3: that's a real risk that everybody has to deal with

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Speaker 3: when they come forward to report police violence or police misconduct.

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Speaker 1: But there's value in speaking out.

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Speaker 3: Police are harming a lot of people regardless of whether

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Speaker 3: they're speaking out or not. The adra lord, your silence

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Speaker 3: won't protect you is so sadly so true when it

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Speaker 3: comes to police departments with really severe histories of misconduct

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Speaker 3: and abusing communities.

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Speaker 1: Speaking out can be daunting, terrifying at times, but the

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Speaker 1: police are supposed to be here to protect us. So

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Speaker 1: it's about time we learn how to work with law

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Speaker 1: enforcement and equip ourselves with the knowledge of what to

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Speaker 1: do if they fail you. In this series, we've explored

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Speaker 1: stories of police misconducduct in Kansas City, Kansas, and how

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Speaker 1: people try to fight it. But this isn't just happening

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Speaker 1: in casey K. There's cases of the police abusing their

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Speaker 1: power across the country and around the world. So in

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Speaker 1: this episode, we'll explore how to fight police misconduct in

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Speaker 1: your community and what to do if you are someone

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Speaker 1: you love is a victim of police abuse. I'm Nicki

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Speaker 1: Richardson and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: This is the Girlfriend's Untouchable Bonus, Episode three, A Girlfriend's

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Speaker 1: Guide to Navigating police misconduct. Pretty Much every black parent

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Speaker 1: I know has set their kids down and given them

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Speaker 1: the talk, not the birds and the bees, the what

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Speaker 1: to do if you get approached by the police or

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Speaker 1: someone in a position of authority.

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Speaker 4: Talk.

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Speaker 1: It's a dark right of passage. But in a country

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Speaker 1: where black people are more likely to be killed by

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Speaker 1: the police, arrested for crimes they didn't commit, and treated

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Speaker 1: with excessive force, it's a necessary conversation. But besides putting

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Speaker 1: your hands up and complying, what are you actually supposed

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Speaker 1: to do when you interact with the police. I asked

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Speaker 1: Lauren to explain the rights we have as civilians interacting

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Speaker 1: with law enforcement. However, this is just a conversation. While

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Speaker 1: Lauren is a lawyer. We won't be providing official legal

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Speaker 1: advice in this episode. Every situation is different, and these

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Speaker 1: are just general guidelines that may not apply in every circumstance.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of people probably know this already.

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Speaker 3: But your right to remain silent, your right to counsel.

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Speaker 3: I think that those things are drilled into you, even

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Speaker 3: if you just watch kind of TV, that you have

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Speaker 3: those rights, but it's often, you know, harder to exercise them,

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Speaker 3: particularly when you're getting these kind of ultimatums, when you're

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Speaker 3: getting these threats from officers. I think it's really important

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Speaker 3: that folks know that they can assert those and that

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Speaker 3: right to remain silent, that's not just something you can do,

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Speaker 3: it's something that you should do. And the right to counsel,

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Speaker 3: that's not only something that you can do, it's something that.

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Speaker 5: You should do.

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Speaker 3: There are actually a lot of situations where you don't

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Speaker 3: even have to interact with the police if you don't

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Speaker 3: want to. One of the things that we always tell

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Speaker 3: activists communities who are over policed is the first question

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Speaker 3: you should ask a police officer if they've stopped you,

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Speaker 3: if they're interacting with you, is are you free to

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Speaker 3: go because a lot of times, you know, police officers

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Speaker 3: are trained to engage in these interactions until they're able

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Speaker 3: to get what's called probable cause, which allows them to

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Speaker 3: search you, detain you, arrest you. But when they initially

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Speaker 3: stop you, they might not have a basis to stop you,

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Speaker 3: and you might be free to end the conversation. So

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Speaker 3: I think the kind of best advice we have for

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Speaker 3: somebody who's interacting with the police is just to ask

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Speaker 3: them directly whether you have to be there and whether

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Speaker 3: you're are going to require you to talk to them,

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Speaker 3: And you know, a lot of the times when you

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Speaker 3: do that, they say no, you're free to leave. I

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Speaker 3: think it's really important to not trust the police when

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Speaker 3: they say, oh, I just have a few questions, you're

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Speaker 3: not in trouble. You tell me this and then I'll

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Speaker 3: be able to go. You let me search this and

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Speaker 3: then or otherwise I'll have to take you. In a

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Speaker 3: lot of those times, those kind of threats and those

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Speaker 3: ultimatums that you're getting from police officers aren't valid and

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Speaker 3: they aren't true. Oftentimes, if you say no, I'm still

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Speaker 3: not going to consent to you searching my car, they're

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Speaker 3: ultimately going to let you go if you don't consent.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes officers will say I'm going to take you in

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Speaker 3: or follow me to the station, even just asking do

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Speaker 3: I have to or I'm not going to.

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Speaker 5: I do think that that's another thing you should look

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Speaker 5: out for.

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Speaker 3: So even if they're being nice, don't open the door

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Speaker 3: to more questioning or more involvement.

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Speaker 1: However, you have to prioritize your safety.

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Speaker 3: The most important advice, obviously is to stay safe. If

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Speaker 3: an officer is getting aggressive, escalating, kind of yelling at you,

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Speaker 3: that might not be time to assert your rights. It's

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Speaker 3: a sad truth and I hate saying it as a

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Speaker 3: civil rights advocate, but like the most important thing is

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Speaker 3: that you get out of there alive. There's a huge

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Speaker 3: threat of violence when you're interacting with a police officer,

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Speaker 3: particularly if you're black, particularly if you're a black man.

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Speaker 3: I think anytime an officer is screaming at you to

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Speaker 3: show your hands, if they're saying anything that's indicating that

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Speaker 3: they think you're armed, that is not a time to run.

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Speaker 3: That is not a time to get rid of anything.

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Speaker 3: Just show your hands. That's all you do. If you

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Speaker 3: have a weapon on you, even if they're saying, drop

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Speaker 3: the weapon.

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Speaker 5: Don't pull out your weapon to drop it.

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Speaker 3: I think we've seen so many horrific and tragic situations

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Speaker 3: where men have been shot or people have been shot

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Speaker 3: because they're trying to comply with an officer's command to

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Speaker 3: throw the gun.

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Speaker 5: Show the gun, drop the gun, just show your hands.

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Speaker 1: But what if you're not the person being questioned, detained,

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Speaker 1: or arrested by the police. What if you're a witness

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Speaker 1: to a crime or something that looks like police misconduct.

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Speaker 3: As a witness, if you see a police interaction, you

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Speaker 3: have the right to record. A lot of states have

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Speaker 3: passed different laws saying that you know, you can't be

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Speaker 3: within twenty five feet or whatever. A lot of those

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Speaker 3: are facing legal challenges, But as long as you're not

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Speaker 3: interfering with the officer's ability to do their job, you

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Speaker 3: have every right to record. And civilians and witnesses recording

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Speaker 3: these situations have been really important for accountability.

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Speaker 5: And so not only can.

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Speaker 3: You, I would you know, encourage people that they should

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Speaker 3: do that if they see something concerning, they have the

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Speaker 3: right to do that under the First Amendment.

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Speaker 1: If you do agree to answer questions as a witness,

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Speaker 1: you're not always required to see the entire process through.

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Speaker 3: Ultimately, in most situations, you have the right to not

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Speaker 3: cooperate with the police. If you initially want to raise

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Speaker 3: something and then at some point it feels like they're

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Speaker 3: trying to collect evidence on you or a family member

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Speaker 3: or whatever it may be, you have the right to

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Speaker 3: stop communicating at any point. So I think until you

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Speaker 3: get some indication from a prosecutor or someone kind of

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Speaker 3: outside of the police department that you a absolutely have

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Speaker 3: to participate, you can exercise your right not to participate

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Speaker 3: at any point, even if you are the one who

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Speaker 3: initiated the charges, even if you are the one who

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Speaker 3: went to the police, you do have the right to

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Speaker 3: go to a different officer within the department, or you're

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Speaker 3: a different investigator or a different detective if there is

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Speaker 3: something that is uncomfortable in the lead detective you think

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Speaker 3: they're doing something wrong, calling even just the precinct where

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Speaker 3: they're based, or just getting in contact with their supervisor

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Speaker 3: to say, hey, these.

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Speaker 5: Are my concerns.

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Speaker 3: That's something you have the right to do, and I

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Speaker 3: would also flag you can have an attorney, You can

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Speaker 3: be represented as a witness, having a legal advocate to

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Speaker 3: kind of protect your rights and make sure that there

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Speaker 3: aren't any lines being crossed and that detectives or officers

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Speaker 3: aren't using the investigative process in a way that could

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Speaker 3: be weaponized against you at a later point.

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Speaker 1: So those are your rights, but what do you do

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Speaker 1: if a police officer violates them? That's coming up after

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Speaker 1: the break.

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Speaker 4: I got you.

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Speaker 1: Police misconduct. It's a phrase we've mentioned a few times,

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Speaker 1: but there isn't a quick and easy definition. It can

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Speaker 1: cover a wide range of things, from excessive force to

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Speaker 1: sexual assault. But if you or someone you love has

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Speaker 1: ever left a police interaction and gotten the feeling that

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Speaker 1: something just isn't quite right, it can be daunting to

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Speaker 1: try and figure out what to do next. So I

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Speaker 1: asked Lauren what advice she.

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Speaker 3: Would give if you've been a victim of police violence.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the most important first steps that

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Speaker 3: you can take is making sure that you seek immediate

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Speaker 3: medical attention. If it as something that was physical, whether

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Speaker 3: that was kind of an incident of excessive force where

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Speaker 3: you were harmed or beaten by the police, whether you

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Speaker 3: know it was a sexual assault, whatever it was, if

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Speaker 3: there was some kind of harm or injury you experienced,

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Speaker 3: it's very important that you get medical treatment quickly, not

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Speaker 3: only so you're healthy and that you can make sure

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Speaker 3: that you don't have any long term health consequences from

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Speaker 3: the event, but it's also very important for preserving your

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Speaker 3: rights and you know, helping your case. Emotional injuries are

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Speaker 3: very important to address quickly as well, So if you

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Speaker 3: can get into counseling, if you can get into psychiatric treatment,

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Speaker 3: that's going to be really important because these events are

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Speaker 3: traumatic and if it's not addressed, if it's kind of

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Speaker 3: pushed down, it could have real consequences for your health

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Speaker 3: long term. And you know, aside from that, if you

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Speaker 3: were to pursue a legal case, it's important to kind

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Speaker 3: of show that you were taking steps to take care

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Speaker 3: of yourself. Having corroborating counseling records is helpful to that end.

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Speaker 1: The next step build up the evidence you might need

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Speaker 1: if you decide to report what happened or take legal action.

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Speaker 5: See if there are any witnesses.

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Speaker 3: Ringing cameras are all around, there are people with cell

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Speaker 3: phones all around, So even if you can't get access

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Speaker 3: to any of those videos, noting where they are, noting

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Speaker 3: who the people were who were involved, or could potentially

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Speaker 3: be witnesses, and getting their contact information is really important

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Speaker 3: because so many of these situations, even with body more

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Speaker 3: and cameras, even with dash cameras, it might be a

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Speaker 3: he said, she said situation, And you want to have

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Speaker 3: all the kind of corroborating evidence, or at least no

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Speaker 3: way to go about getting that evidence after it happens.

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Speaker 1: What happens if you don't want to report it. Though

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Speaker 1: we've heard from so many women who for their own

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Speaker 1: various reasons, were too scared or traumatized to talk about

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Speaker 1: what happened to them. Nobody should ever force or pressure

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Speaker 1: you into feeling like you have to share your story.

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Speaker 1: That's a personal choice, and I can understand why so

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Speaker 1: many people would want to keep bit to themselves, but

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Speaker 1: there's still value in taking notes. They think it goes

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Speaker 1: to the fact that you may change your mind. You

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Speaker 1: may be in a place emotionally, spiritually, mentally where you

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Speaker 1: feel like you can pursue accountability and justice, and having

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Speaker 1: those kind of records and having that information is going

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Speaker 1: to allow you to do that in the future. I

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Speaker 1: would also say, though you know, kind of independent of

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Speaker 1: whether you want to seek that relief for yourself, or not.

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Speaker 1: One thing that we see over and over with all

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Speaker 1: types of police violence is there are repeat bad actors.

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Speaker 1: If this person did this thing to you, it's very

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Speaker 1: likely that they're going to do it to somebody else.

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Speaker 1: I think probably ninety nine percent of my clients, people

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Speaker 1: that I've represented in police misconduct cases, their number one

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Speaker 1: priority is making sure that what the experience doesn't happen

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Speaker 1: to anybody else, and making sure that officer has to

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Speaker 1: deal with the consequences of their actions. And you know

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Speaker 1: that can't happen if people don't come forward, and so

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Speaker 1: having that record and being able to turn it over

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Speaker 1: to somebody who'd suffered the same experience as you and

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Speaker 1: does want to pursue justice can be a way to

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Speaker 1: support them. If you do decide to take action, you

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Speaker 1: can file an internal affairs report.

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Speaker 3: Most police departments do have kind of an online option

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Speaker 3: to submit a civilian complaint about an officer. There are

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Speaker 3: a lot of barriers in some places. I think Texas

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Speaker 3: is one of the states where you have to do

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Speaker 3: a kind of notarized signature if you're going to submit

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Speaker 3: any complaint on an officer, which is wild and difficult

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Speaker 3: and definitely is deterring people from filing those types of complaints.

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Speaker 3: But for the most part, there usually is information on

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Speaker 3: a particular police department's website. Even if there isn't, I

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Speaker 3: would say, even just writing a letter or an email

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Speaker 3: to a general inbox, you might get back from them like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we don't look into this, or we can't tell you

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Speaker 3: what we're going to do with it. Making those documentations

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Speaker 3: is very important for being able to point to that

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Speaker 3: at a later date and say, this police department was

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Speaker 3: on notice, this agency was on notice. They heard all

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Speaker 3: these different complaints and they didn't do anything. And I

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Speaker 3: think the reason that that's important is because so often

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Speaker 3: we focus on individual bad actors in police departments, but

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Speaker 3: we don't look at the role that the institution plays

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Speaker 3: in enabling them. And so often that comes in the

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Speaker 3: form of ignoring civilian complaints, internal affairs complaints. And the

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Speaker 3: way you can prove that they're being ignored and the

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Speaker 3: community concerns are being ignored is to file on every

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Speaker 3: single incident.

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Speaker 1: What if you do seek medical attention, speak to a therapist,

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Speaker 1: gather up information, but then get scared of facing retaliation

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Speaker 1: while staying quiet may feel like the safer option. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: you protect yourself more by speaking out. In some ways,

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Speaker 1: being public protects you. Like the more you're out there,

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Speaker 1: the more people are gonna worry about you.

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Speaker 3: People are going to know about you and worry about

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Speaker 3: you if something happens, and people are going to connect

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Speaker 3: the dots. If you are publicly saying, hey, this happened

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Speaker 3: to me and then suddenly arrested for some bogus charge,

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Speaker 3: people are going to two and two together, and that's

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Speaker 3: going to be a form of protection in a way.

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Speaker 1: As we've heard in this series, the police aren't necessarily

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Speaker 1: the best people to reach out to when it comes

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Speaker 1: to reporting this conduct at the hands of their colleagues.

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Speaker 1: So another avenue to justice may be seeking out legal advice.

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Speaker 3: You have to find an attorney. That's really, really important.

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Speaker 3: I'll plug the National Police Accountability Projects Public Attorney Directory.

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Speaker 3: We have attorneys in every single state in the United States,

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Speaker 3: over five hundred and fifty across the country who will

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Speaker 3: do a free consultation. Who will you know, look at

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Speaker 3: your case and be able to advise you on next steps.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the most important things folks should

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Speaker 3: know when they're going into this process is to make

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Speaker 3: sure that they're comfortable with the person. You know. Lawyers

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Speaker 3: sometimes can be charming charismatic because they have to like

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Speaker 3: talk in front of jury's But make sure that there's

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Speaker 3: authenticity behind that and that there's care behind that. And

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Speaker 3: I think one of the ways you can figure out

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Speaker 3: a good read on that is how many questions are

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Speaker 3: they asking about you as a person, about your loved one?

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Speaker 3: Are they interest and who they were? Are they interested

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Speaker 3: in who you are? I would say another thing that's

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Speaker 3: important when you're looking at an attorney is kind of

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Speaker 3: having an explicit conversation of like do you drop cases?

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Speaker 5: Do you push your clients to accept settlements?

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Speaker 3: Have you ever fired a client before, dropped representation of

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Speaker 3: a client before? And what were the circumstances around that

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Speaker 3: if we get a settlement offer?

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Speaker 5: Like whose decision is that?

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Speaker 3: Are you going to push me to accept an offer

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Speaker 3: or are you going to let that be my decision

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Speaker 3: and stick with me even if you disagree with it.

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Speaker 3: I think another thing is to just see what qushions

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Speaker 3: they ask you. Are they asking you about what your

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Speaker 3: goals are? If you tell them something that's kind of

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Speaker 3: negative about oh, my son who was killed, he did

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Speaker 3: have a gun, or you know, he did have this

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Speaker 3: on his Facebook page, Like what's their reaction?

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Speaker 5: Is that like that is bad?

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Speaker 3: Or is that everyone's human and you know he's a kid,

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Speaker 3: and just kind of seeing how they view you as

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Speaker 3: a person and view your loved one if they're suing

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Speaker 3: on behalf of your loved one.

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Speaker 5: So it's definitely not a science.

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Speaker 3: You're kind of like kind of feeling someone out like

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Speaker 3: you would just as inter personally. But there are specific

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Speaker 3: questions you can ask, and I think that there are

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Speaker 3: certain questions you should make sure that you see if

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Speaker 3: they're asking you to determine if they're going to be

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Speaker 3: a good fit.

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Speaker 1: Like me, Lauren has spent time with dozens of people

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Speaker 1: who've had a really tough experience navigating the justice system.

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Speaker 1: Seeing a lawsuit through can have a real emotional toll

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Speaker 1: on you, so it's important to weigh up whether taking

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Speaker 1: legal action is actually the best option.

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Speaker 3: The first question we ask somebody who comes forward and

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Speaker 3: says I'm considering filing a civil rights lawsuit is what

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Speaker 3: do you want to get out of this? What are

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Speaker 3: your goals? I think it's always really important to figure

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Speaker 3: out what you're trying to get out of the process.

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Speaker 3: If it's accountability, if you want to put a spotlight

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Speaker 3: on what happened, you could do just a media campaign

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Speaker 3: without all the kind of issues that come along with

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Speaker 3: a civil rights lawsuit. If it's some kind of external

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Speaker 3: accountability from the internal affairs department, but you don't want

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Speaker 3: to kind of sit down and be in a civil

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Speaker 3: rights lawsuit for three to four years, we might say, oh,

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Speaker 3: a civilian complaint review board my be a better route

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Speaker 3: for you where you can get someone other than the

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Speaker 3: police department to look at this, that there might be

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Speaker 3: some form of accountability. If it's monetary relief or if

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Speaker 3: you have like issues from the interaction that you're trying

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Speaker 3: to get compensation for, that might be a route. Well,

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Speaker 3: you absolutely have to do a civil rights lawsuit in

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Speaker 3: addition to kind of what are your goals would you

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Speaker 3: want to get out of this, Like what are your

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Speaker 3: concerns If retaliation is one of your concerns, you can

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Speaker 3: file lawsuits as kind of a Jane Doe. Usually in

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Speaker 3: certain communities and small communities. It's hard once you kind

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Speaker 3: of put all the facts out there to really protect

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Speaker 3: someone's identity, but there are ways that you can file

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Speaker 3: lawsuits confidentially, things can be filed under seal. And then

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, another thing that's really important in

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Speaker 3: terms of providing advice on taking legal action is really

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Speaker 3: making sure people understand what it entails.

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Speaker 5: Right. It's not just kind of I file a lawsuit.

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Speaker 3: Six months later, you know the court will say yes

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Speaker 3: or no about whether I'm right or not. These cases

404
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 3: take a really long time. They're really slow. You have

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Speaker 3: to sit for a deposition, you have to turn over

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Speaker 3: your metical records, you have to turn over sometimes your

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Speaker 3: cell phone records.

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Speaker 5: Like it's very invasive.

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Speaker 3: You really have to kind of open up your life

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Speaker 3: to the police department that you're suing in the court.

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Speaker 5: It can be really dehumanizing.

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Speaker 3: People really need to be aware that's going to happen

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Speaker 3: and be okay with that. And there are certain accommodations

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Speaker 3: we can make to address specific concerns, but at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day, you really have to make a

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Speaker 3: lot of sacrifices to pursue legal action, and so we

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Speaker 3: always want to be transparent about that and make sure

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Speaker 3: people are coming into the process fully informed about that.

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Speaker 3: And also I think to that point, it won't just

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Speaker 3: be you right, like your kid might have to be deposed,

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Speaker 3: your kid might have their cells, phone records subpoena. Like,

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Speaker 3: just making sure that there's a real understanding of what

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Speaker 3: is ahead and what this process will entail is a

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Speaker 3: big part of the conversation when someone wants to take

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Speaker 3: legal actions. I think it really is just kind of

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Speaker 3: having a conversation about, like, what what's the worst thing

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Speaker 3: we're going to find out in this process, Like what's

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Speaker 3: the worst.

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Speaker 5: Thing you wouldn't want anyone to know?

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Speaker 3: It is really important that people go into civil rights

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Speaker 3: lawsuits or any kind of legal action with eyes wide open,

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Speaker 3: But it can also be really empowering in the same

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Speaker 3: way that you kind of have to sit and have

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Speaker 3: the spotlight on you, so do they?

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Speaker 1: Legal action can be the solution to getting justice in

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Speaker 1: individual cases of police misconduct, but as we know, the

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Speaker 1: problem runs much deeper than just a few bad apples.

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Speaker 1: So why have so many instances of police misconduct gone

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Speaker 1: unpunished and why can police departments seem so untouchable. That's

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Speaker 1: after the.

441
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 2: Break you and got you.

442
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: The sexual as sought allegations against Detective Glubski, and the

443
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 1: murders that sparked the Black Lives Matter Movement are just

444
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,639
Speaker 1: a few of the many times police misconduct has become

445
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 1: the topic of national conversation. It was a case in

446
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: the nineties that led to the creation of the National

447
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 1: Police Accountability Project.

448
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 3: A group of progressive attorneys saw what had happened to

449
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 3: Rodney King and said, hey, Rodney King isn't the only

450
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 3: Rodney King out there. There are so many people have

451
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: been harmed by the police. We should be taking their

452
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 3: cases now. It was at a time when there weren't

453
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 3: a lot of people doing this work, and so they

454
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 3: started filing these civil rights cases on behalf of victims

455
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: of police abuse and saw that there are all these

456
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 3: complicated legal doctrines and barriers that they were running into,

457
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 3: and so said, we should start making sure that we're

458
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 3: pulling our resources and our knowledge together so we can

459
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 3: be more successful. And NPAP was formed as a way

460
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: to do that, and for about fifteen twenty years that's

461
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: really what the organization did, was this kind of space

462
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 3: for attorneys who were suing the police in jails and

463
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 3: prisons to get together and share intel and information. After

464
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 3: the murder of George Floyd that there was a recognition

465
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 3: by the leadership of the organization that we could be

466
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 3: doing more to affect systemic reforms and make sure that

467
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 3: not only were we addressing police violence after it happened,

468
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 3: but that we were stopping it and enacting different reforms

469
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: to stop it before it happened in the first place.

470
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: So the NPAP began working on lawsuits and taking legal

471
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: action against jails, prisons, and police departments that were found

472
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: to have repeatedly engaged in misconduct. But some of the

473
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: hurdles they've come up against get in the way of

474
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: true police accountability.

475
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 3: I would say, really at the top are police unions.

476
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 3: The collective bargaining agreements that are in place, which are

477
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: the agreements between the police department and the city, create

478
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 3: all these protections that make it incredibly hard even to

479
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 3: start disciplinary proceedings, make it hard to do internal investigations.

480
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: So even if you bring in a chief who really

481
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 3: wants to make sure that his officers aren't doing something wrong,

482
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 3: that they're being suspen or disciplined or terminated when they

483
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 3: do something wrong, oftentimes they can't carry that out because

484
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 3: of how immense the protections in a collective bargaining agreement are.

485
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: I would say another big barrier is political will. In

486
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, we saw a lot

487
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: of steps towards accountability. We saw a lot of steps

488
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 3: towards reform, but so many of those have been clawed

489
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 3: back at the state and federal level because of this

490
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: narrative that we have about crime increasing, and all those

491
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 3: things together have been some of the barriers to even

492
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 3: kind of these baseline reforms being enacted.

493
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 1: There are many activists, especially in over policed communities, that

494
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: argue that the police can't be reformed, that the best

495
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: solution is to defund or abolish them. Cities like Austin

496
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: in Seattle have diverted millions of dollars away from their

497
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 1: police force and into services that tackle homelessness, public housing,

498
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: and social care, but other cities have tried and backtracked

499
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: after realizing they weren't fully prepared for the work of

500
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 1: reallocating funds or the effect that reducing the police could

501
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 1: have on preventing crime. I've seen firsthand the harm that

502
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: the police can have on a community, but like other activists,

503
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: I've made the choice to try and work with the

504
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: authorities to enact reform. It's not a path that everyone

505
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: agrees with and I can understand why. So I ask

506
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: Lauren why she's chosen to do the same in spite

507
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 1: of all the barriers.

508
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 3: People are killed by the police every day in America,

509
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: and you know, we can't just say, oh, let's dream

510
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 3: of a better future, because you know, police are always

511
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: going to be trash.

512
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 5: People need relief and help right now.

513
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of policy merits to

514
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 3: abolition and defund, but I think we are at a

515
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: place where we're kind of meeting the system where it's

516
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: at in trying to make sure that people who are

517
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: harmed today have some form of relief or like that

518
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 3: the bare minimum is happening in terms of accountability, because

519
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: when you look at it, people.

520
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 5: Are saying, you know, this doesn't work. Reform doesn't work.

521
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 3: But very few police departments have actually enacted any kind

522
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: of meaningful reforms. Even our existing thoughts of what accountability

523
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 3: systems should be aren't in place. And so I think

524
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 3: the kind of approach we have NPAP and the reason

525
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 3: that I'm passionate about working at this organization is because

526
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 3: it's really meeting real needs. And so even if these

527
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 3: are incremental changes or small changes, if it's you making

528
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: that three people killed by the police one person killed

529
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: by police every day. That's important. That's important to those

530
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: families who aren't going to live with the loved one

531
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 3: to police violence. That's important to communities that might feel

532
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: even slightly less over policed, and they can have a

533
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 3: real impact. And so that's kind of our approach and

534
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: our thought process around the steps that we're taking to

535
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: change policing.

536
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: Lauren has seen the impact that challenging the police to

537
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: enact reform can have. She told me about a case

538
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: she's working one that involves a police department in a

539
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: small town in the South, a state where the government

540
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: hasn't done much to push back against police misconduct.

541
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 3: I mean, there was just zero accountability there a small town.

542
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 5: There wasn't a civilian review board.

543
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 3: You know, the mayor and the city council were all

544
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 3: very close with the police department. But it was a

545
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: place where there was incredible amounts of abuse.

546
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 5: There were these roadblocks that.

547
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: Were being erected, you know, kind of blocking the street

548
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: and kind of like a military takeover almost and targeting

549
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: black citizens, the majority of black town. Targeting black citizens

550
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: for ticketing and stops in searches of their vehicle. We

551
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 3: came in, we filed a lawsuit, and even though that

552
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: lawsuit is ongoing, as soon as we filed the lawsuit,

553
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 3: there were a number of changes, right, Like all these

554
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 3: things that people were going to city council meetings complaining

555
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: about and had been ignored. Once there was a lawsuit

556
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: and there was a spotlight on them, they started cleaning

557
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: up their act, not completely, but in terms of reducing

558
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 3: the number of roadblocks that they were erecting, you know,

559
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: being more thoughtful about like who they were arresting, using

560
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: less force, and incidents, giving people the benefit of the

561
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 3: doubt instead of tickets. Just lived the very fact of

562
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: filing a lawsuit and putting a spotlight on the situation

563
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: and saying, hey, these are actually legal violations and we

564
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: feel so serious about them, we're willing to take them

565
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 3: to a federal court. That having a kind of immediate

566
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 3: change in people's lives was really rewarding and really encouraging.

567
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: And they recently elected a new mayor who's a very

568
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: kind of reform minded mayor.

569
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 5: So I think only better things are to come.

570
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: And so I would just say that, you know, a

571
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: lot of times there are these police departments that feel

572
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: like they are just so rotted to the core that

573
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: they can't change and that there's no way it's going

574
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 3: to get better or policing as a whole is going

575
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: to get better. But I think we as civilians, we

576
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: as people in the community, really have more control over

577
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: that than we give ourselves credit for. When we stand up,

578
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: when we push back, when we put a spotlight on somewhere,

579
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: things aren't going to completely change.

580
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 5: There's still going to be problems.

581
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: I think that there are some fundamental flaws with policing

582
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: that aren't going to be fixed for a long time,

583
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: but even these kind of incremental changes can have a

584
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: huge impact.

585
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: So what do you do if you're seeing instances of

586
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 1: police misconduct in your community? What kadjian A and other

587
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: activists in our community did was to keep showing up,

588
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: asking questions and challenging the authorities. It can be easy

589
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: to fall into us versus them mentality, and in cases

590
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: like the ones we've heard, it does often feel that way.

591
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: But the police and local government are supposed to work

592
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: for us make our community safer. So it's essential that

593
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: regular people take it upon themselves to fight for accountability,

594
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: because if we don't do it?

595
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 5: Who will If.

596
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 3: You're seeing something wrong, if you're like feeling like this

597
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: just isn't working, if you're feeling like you don't know

598
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: what steps to take in order to improve the police

599
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 3: department or policing in your community. Step one is to

600
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: do some self education, right like who is your police chief?

601
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 5: Is he elected? Okay?

602
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: If he's elected, Like when's his next campaign? Is there

603
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: somebody we can get to run against him? I think

604
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: really Step one is getting the information if you're seeing

605
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: a lot of use of force, like, can I do

606
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: an open records request and get access to the use

607
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 3: of force policy and see if that's where the problem

608
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 3: is coming from?

609
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: Is this an issue with training?

610
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: So really figuring out like what is the source of

611
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: these problems and getting that information. I feel like it's

612
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: such an important step and can be so empowering. And

613
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: once you're educated, you should really feel empowered to kind

614
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 3: of educate others, elected officials.

615
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 5: Your other people in your community.

616
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 3: You have more allies out there than you know, and

617
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: so kind of showing up at city council meetings, at

618
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: police accountability board meetings if you have one, and then

619
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: you know, I think in this world where we have

620
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 3: so much digital advocacy, Like just looking and seeing who

621
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: else is out there, who else is doing this work,

622
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: and plugging in, you're going to find like minded folks,

623
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 3: and together you're going to be able to make a

624
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 3: bigger splash than you could alone.

625
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: Activism can seem exciting and empowering at first, but the

626
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: road to progress can be long and frustrating. If I'm honest,

627
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: Kadjia and I have probably experienced more disappointments than major

628
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: wins fighting.

629
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 3: I don't think it's an option to say we just

630
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: have to deal with this, we just have to give up,

631
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: we just have to wait for something else to happen.

632
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 3: Like people are suffering right now. People are dealing with

633
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: police violence right now, they're dealing with all kinds of

634
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 3: misconduct and harm. We have to keep doing this work,

635
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 3: and we should feel inspired to do this work because

636
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: there are so many people who are being so brave

637
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 3: and stepping forward and saying, you know, this happened to me,

638
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: and I don't think it should happen to anybody else.

639
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: We should stand by them and stand with them, because

640
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: we're always more effective when we're working together than working alone.

641
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: A huge thank you to Lauren Bonds for joining us

642
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: and sharing all her wisdom. I hope this episode gave

643
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: you some practical insights on how to know your rights

644
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: and advocate for you your loved ones in your local community.

645
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about the National Police

646
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: Accountability Project.

647
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 3: Follow us on Instagram. We are in pap Justice on Instagram.

648
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: We provide just about all of our updates on there.

649
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: We're also on Blue Sky same handle, and we have

650
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: a website as well, National Police Accountability Project, So just

651
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: google us you will find us around.

652
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: In the next episode of The Girlfriend's Untouchable, our producer

653
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Raufaro will be speaking to District Attorney Mark dupri about

654
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: how to weed out corruption and make a change.

655
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 5: It's one thing to know corruption exists. It's a whole

656
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 5: other thing when.

657
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 4: You're actually in the system and you're the DA and

658
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: you actually have the evidence to show I wasn't driven.

659
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 5: It was a shock.

660
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 4: I was like, oh wow.

661
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: The Girlfriend's Untouchable is produced by Novels for iHeart Podcast.

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Speaker 1: For more from novel visit novel dot Audio. The show

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Speaker 1: is narrated by me Nicki Richardson. It was written and

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Speaker 1: produced by Rufarro Mazarura. The editor is Joe Wheeler. Our

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Speaker 1: assistant producer is Mohammed Ahmed. The researcher is Zaiyana Yusef.

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Speaker 1: Production management from Shuri Houston and Joe Savage. The fact

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Speaker 1: checker is Fndell Fulton. Sound design, mixing and scoring by

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Speaker 1: Daniel Kimpson with additional engineering by Nicholas Alexander. Music supervision

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Speaker 1: by Rufarro Masarua, Nicholas Alexander and Joe Wheeler. Original music

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Speaker 1: by Amanda Jones. The series artwork was designed by Christina Limpool.

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Speaker 1: Novel's Director of Development is Selena Metta. Willard Foxton is

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Speaker 1: Novel's creative director of Development. Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan

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Speaker 1: are executive producers for Novel. Katrina Norvel and Nicki Etour

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Speaker 1: are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts, and the marketing

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Speaker 1: lead is Alison Cantor. Special thanks to Will Pearson and

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Speaker 1: his special thanks to Carley Frankel and the whole team

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Speaker 1: at w ME