WEBVTT - Riz Ahmed Plays Himself 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:30.956 Pushkin. I just kind of felt the tears on my 0:00:30.996 --> 0:00:32.396 face and I was like, what the hell is going on? 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:35.676 That's what it's light. When you really communicate with sign language, 0:00:35.676 --> 0:00:38.716 you'll communicate with your whole body. That's a totally different 0:00:38.756 --> 0:00:44.076 kind of communication than, you know, the transaction of just words. 0:00:44.836 --> 0:00:47.836 That's riz Acmanon. He was nominated for an OSCAR for 0:00:47.916 --> 0:00:51.156 his performance in the movie Sound of Metal. In the film, 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:53.956 he plays a musician who loses his hearing, and he 0:00:54.036 --> 0:00:56.556 says playing the part changed how he moves about in 0:00:56.596 --> 0:01:00.676 this world. In his latest film, Mogul Mowgli, riz plays 0:01:00.676 --> 0:01:03.396 a character based on his own life, and he says 0:01:03.476 --> 0:01:07.596 that role changed how he sees himself. I realized that 0:01:08.516 --> 0:01:10.996 up until his point as an actor, I'd become adept 0:01:11.076 --> 0:01:17.796 to molding masks and wearing them for other people and 0:01:17.916 --> 0:01:21.996 representing other people, and representing for other people a community 0:01:22.076 --> 0:01:25.196 or whatever. And I realized that actually, the next stage 0:01:25.196 --> 0:01:28.076 of growth is about not molding and wearing masks, but 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:34.356 taking them off. In this episode, what happens when an 0:01:34.396 --> 0:01:37.516 actor takes the mask off and learns how to play himself. 0:01:39.836 --> 0:01:43.316 I'm doctor Maya Schunker, a cognitive scientist who studies how 0:01:43.356 --> 0:01:46.796 and why we change. This is a slight change of plans, 0:01:47.196 --> 0:01:49.676 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:49.916 --> 0:01:58.636 in the face of a big change. You know. Typically 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:01.636 a slight change of plans focuses on how people have 0:02:01.756 --> 0:02:05.276 navigated extraordinary change in their personal lives and what that's 0:02:05.276 --> 0:02:07.876 taught them about who they are in their identity and 0:02:07.876 --> 0:02:11.316 how they've shifted perspectives as a result of this big change. 0:02:12.156 --> 0:02:14.716 With your interview in particular, I'm flipping it a bit, 0:02:14.756 --> 0:02:18.476 which is, you're obviously a highly skilled actor, and I 0:02:18.516 --> 0:02:22.276 want to hear how embodying distinct roles in your career 0:02:22.356 --> 0:02:25.516 has changed you in some ways, right, your understanding of 0:02:25.556 --> 0:02:29.036 the world, the world around you, because I imagine that 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:32.276 sometimes the best way to learn about who we are 0:02:32.596 --> 0:02:36.276 is to see undiscovered parts of ourselves reflected in the 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:39.636 characters that we play, right, absolutely, That sounds amazing. Well, 0:02:39.916 --> 0:02:42.836 thank you. So to start off it sounded metal. Do 0:02:42.876 --> 0:02:45.076 you mind for listeners who haven't seen the film, can 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:49.276 you just give a quick synopsis? Yeah? Sure so. Sound 0:02:49.276 --> 0:02:53.396 of Metal is the story of Rubin and Lou. There 0:02:53.396 --> 0:02:55.636 are a couple, they live on the road. They're in 0:02:55.636 --> 0:02:58.116 a band together they live together, so it's kind of 0:02:58.116 --> 0:03:01.236 them against the world in their little cocoon. And you know, 0:03:01.356 --> 0:03:04.876 all of a sudden rubin the drama and the producer 0:03:04.916 --> 0:03:10.676 of this duo loses his hearing. It's a sudden onset 0:03:10.916 --> 0:03:17.516 hearing loss. And what ends up happening is he questions 0:03:18.036 --> 0:03:20.196 his place in the world, his place in the relationship, 0:03:20.316 --> 0:03:23.356 his worth and value in the band, and inevitably it 0:03:23.436 --> 0:03:30.636 triggers some of his issues with addiction, and so his 0:03:30.836 --> 0:03:35.276 entire life is derailed. And yet in that process of 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:39.476 relinquishing all those roles and identities that he used to 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.316 define himself through, he actually kind of finds himself and 0:03:43.036 --> 0:03:45.876 connects to a part of himself that he didn't know 0:03:46.036 --> 0:03:49.236 was there, that he didn't know he needed to. It's 0:03:49.276 --> 0:03:53.596 beautiful and curious. What did you learn about the deaf 0:03:53.636 --> 0:03:57.916 community by immersing yourself in it for this role? So 0:03:57.916 --> 0:04:01.036 so much? I mean, I thought I just signed up 0:04:01.076 --> 0:04:03.956 to learn American sign language and learn how to play 0:04:03.996 --> 0:04:06.236 the drums, But what I learned was so so much more. 0:04:06.756 --> 0:04:08.876 I feel like the deaf community taught me the meaning 0:04:09.196 --> 0:04:13.036 of the word communication. I feel like the deaf community 0:04:13.076 --> 0:04:15.756 taught me what listening really is Listening isn't something you 0:04:15.796 --> 0:04:17.196 just do with your ears. It's something you do with 0:04:17.236 --> 0:04:22.916 your entire body, with your energy, by holding space for 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:26.276 someone else with your attention. You know, it's an act 0:04:26.276 --> 0:04:30.036 of love listening, and it's something that is it's an 0:04:30.036 --> 0:04:35.076 all body activity. And similarly with communication, you know, I 0:04:35.196 --> 0:04:39.596 kind of found myself getting far more emotional talking about 0:04:40.316 --> 0:04:42.356 you know, certain topics and sign language than I would 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:44.236 or if I if I had the mask of words 0:04:44.276 --> 0:04:47.876 to hide behind. I think of Jeremy Stone, my sign instructor, 0:04:47.876 --> 0:04:51.156 who told me that there's this trope in the deaf 0:04:51.196 --> 0:04:55.076 community that hearing people are emotionally repressed because they hide 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:58.396 behind words, and the deaf community is so much about 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:05.676 communication and embodied communication rather than physiological listening. That yeah, 0:05:05.956 --> 0:05:07.276 it really kind of worked me up to what those 0:05:07.316 --> 0:05:10.516 words really mean. You give an example of how that 0:05:10.596 --> 0:05:16.996 expressed itself in you. Yes, So one example is, you know, 0:05:17.076 --> 0:05:19.876 Jeremy and I would meet up every day to him 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:21.876 to teach me sign language for a couple of hours 0:05:21.876 --> 0:05:24.276 every morning for about seven months. And over that period 0:05:24.316 --> 0:05:27.196 of time, you know, you quickly move past you know, 0:05:27.476 --> 0:05:30.916 grammar and vocabulary and your starts becoming each other's therapists 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:34.356 and each other's kind of best buddies. And I remember 0:05:34.356 --> 0:05:36.116 it was a moment we were just both talking about 0:05:36.156 --> 0:05:41.436 our lives, really our experiences, talking actually about how they 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:44.156 might have overlapped with the characters of Ruben, that the 0:05:44.276 --> 0:05:47.756 idea of kind of feeling like an outsider, always looking 0:05:47.756 --> 0:05:50.836 for that place that you might belong and finding that 0:05:50.876 --> 0:05:53.156 you didn't, so having to create your own place and belonging. 0:05:54.516 --> 0:05:56.836 And I think we were just talking about high school, 0:05:57.036 --> 0:05:59.196 you know, and our experiences, and it couldn't have been 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:03.676 more different. You grew up, you know, Afro Latin in Harlem, 0:06:04.116 --> 0:06:06.716 a deaf kid in a hearing school, you know, I 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:09.636 grew up British Pakistani working class in a push white 0:06:09.676 --> 0:06:12.636 private school in the suburbs. But there was just some 0:06:12.716 --> 0:06:15.436 overlap and we were just talking and HAS found myself 0:06:15.436 --> 0:06:20.156 welling up and I just kind of felt the tears 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:21.316 on my face and I was like, what the hell 0:06:21.396 --> 0:06:24.316 is going on? And he kind of that's when he 0:06:24.356 --> 0:06:27.996 stopped me and said, that's that's what it's light. When 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:30.596 you really communicate with sign language, you're communicate with your 0:06:30.596 --> 0:06:33.716 whole body. Your body's reliving the experience and you're transmitting 0:06:33.756 --> 0:06:36.476 that to me with your energy. That's a totally different 0:06:36.516 --> 0:06:43.196 kind of communication than, you know, the transaction of just words. Yeah, 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:46.236 it's so interesting you say this. I know we're both 0:06:46.316 --> 0:06:48.996 We were both at Oxford at various points, and my 0:06:49.076 --> 0:06:52.796 thesis was about multisensory perception and the fact that it 0:06:52.836 --> 0:06:55.956 doesn't make sense to study the senses and isolation. What 0:06:56.076 --> 0:06:58.356 we see can affect what we hear, what we taste 0:06:58.396 --> 0:07:01.836 can affect what we touch, And my research was on 0:07:01.876 --> 0:07:05.596 how our high level expectations of the world infiltrate all 0:07:05.676 --> 0:07:08.636 of our sensory perception. Right, The attitudes and beliefs that 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:11.396 we bring to the table affect everything, and so we 0:07:11.516 --> 0:07:15.396 sometimes can feel like we're passive recipients of sensory inputs, 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:18.836 but actually the emotions that we have, the belief systems 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:23.356 we carry, they inform that sensory perception in critical ways. Right, 0:07:23.396 --> 0:07:26.596 it's a bidirectional route. Absolutely. Well, it's fascinating. So the 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:32.756 idea that there's no yeah, objective perception. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, 0:07:32.796 --> 0:07:38.916 we're kind of yeah, character baggage history, you know, backstory, 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:42.316 if you will. In acting parlance, that's those are the 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:46.676 goggles that you're viewing the world through exactly. You know, 0:07:46.676 --> 0:07:50.476 there's this poignant moment when Reuben is at the doctor's 0:07:50.516 --> 0:07:54.276 office because he's just had profound hearing loss, and he 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:57.036 naively assumes that there has to be a solution to 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:00.596 his plight, right, he resists any implication that the road 0:08:00.596 --> 0:08:04.436 ahead will be far more complex. I see that. So 0:08:04.516 --> 0:08:08.236 what can we do about it? How do I get 0:08:08.276 --> 0:08:14.236 it back? Well, you have to understand something here. Whether 0:08:14.436 --> 0:08:18.116 or not this is related to your exposure to noise 0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:23.916 or it's an autoimmune issue, doesn't really matter. I understand 0:08:23.956 --> 0:08:26.236 I've got a problem. I'm asking you what I could 0:08:26.276 --> 0:08:28.636 do about it. You know, I think so many of 0:08:28.716 --> 0:08:31.996 us in our lives experience this kind of denial in 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:34.596 the face of an unwanted change. You know. It's so 0:08:34.676 --> 0:08:37.716 it's such a relatable moment, and so I was curious 0:08:37.716 --> 0:08:41.036 to know whether you've also had that kind of instinct 0:08:41.036 --> 0:08:44.636 at moments in your life where you've been you've either 0:08:44.676 --> 0:08:48.436 been at a crossroads, you've experienced unwanted change, where you're 0:08:48.436 --> 0:08:51.756 just hoping for that simple answer, that's simple fix. I think, 0:08:52.116 --> 0:08:56.996 in smaller ways, almost every day I find myself, you know, 0:08:57.036 --> 0:09:00.396 trying to look for simplistic solutions rather than the complex, 0:09:00.556 --> 0:09:07.476 embracing the complexity of acceptance, you know, and it's it's 0:09:07.556 --> 0:09:11.116 a it's a daily practice, is right, you know. Surrender 0:09:11.276 --> 0:09:14.836 and submission and an acceptance is something that is actually 0:09:14.836 --> 0:09:17.436 comes up in the film a lot Um. You know, 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:20.036 the idea of the addict looking for a fix, as 0:09:20.076 --> 0:09:22.116 in a hit of drugs, it's also the addict looking 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:27.196 for a fix a way of you know, um, making 0:09:27.196 --> 0:09:30.156 things feel better. You know. If that's what the hit 0:09:30.196 --> 0:09:32.756 of drugs do, that's what the hit of dopamine does. 0:09:32.796 --> 0:09:37.076 That's what um, the adrenaline does for the workaholic, you know, 0:09:37.196 --> 0:09:42.236 like myself, or that's also um, you know, papering over 0:09:42.276 --> 0:09:48.996 the cracks with some some kind of illusion of solving. Um. Yeah, 0:09:49.076 --> 0:09:52.436 it's it makes things feel better, but it's but it's 0:09:52.436 --> 0:09:55.876 not engaging with the world as it is. And yeah, 0:09:55.916 --> 0:09:59.836 I'm constantly in that place, I mean saying all the 0:09:59.836 --> 0:10:06.156 things that I struggle with, like terrible surrendering, Oh my gosh. 0:10:06.196 --> 0:10:08.476 I mean one thing I found so much resonance in 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:11.676 Reuben's story because a quick personal aside, which is I 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:14.836 was a concert violetist as a kid and a sudden 0:10:14.996 --> 0:10:19.676 acute injury in my hand derailed my musical career, and 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.276 it was so clear to everyone Riz other than me, 0:10:22.636 --> 0:10:26.596 that my journey was over and slowly over the years. 0:10:27.876 --> 0:10:29.796 And I think this touches on some of the themes 0:10:29.996 --> 0:10:33.076 in Sound of Metal and in Mogil Mogley you have 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:36.676 to figure out who you are outside of that one pursuit. 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:40.196 It calls into question this very natural question we all 0:10:40.236 --> 0:10:42.956 ask ourselves, which is who are we right? You know, 0:10:42.996 --> 0:10:46.556 in cognitive science there's this term called identity foreclosure, and 0:10:46.636 --> 0:10:49.556 it does refer to the idea that we can feel 0:10:49.676 --> 0:10:53.596 very fixed in our sense of selves, especially early in adolescence, 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:59.156 and that identity prevents us from exploring other alternatives, other avenues, 0:10:59.556 --> 0:11:02.316 other identities that we can embody. And so, you know, 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:03.796 I think if you had asked me as a young kid, 0:11:03.796 --> 0:11:05.876 what do you love about the violin? I would have said, well, 0:11:05.916 --> 0:11:07.716 I love how it feels, I love how it sounds. 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:10.236 Actually what I love of Riz And maybe you can 0:11:10.276 --> 0:11:12.916 relate to this as an actor, as I could get 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:16.636 onto a stage in front of thousands of strangers and 0:11:16.676 --> 0:11:20.116 within moments I could make them feel something that they 0:11:20.116 --> 0:11:23.676 had never felt before. And that was so intoxicating and 0:11:23.716 --> 0:11:27.156 so powerful that when I realized, well, this is a 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:30.036 trait of music that made me happy, I might have 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:32.676 lost the violin, but let me try to find that 0:11:32.756 --> 0:11:36.716 trait elsewhere in other pursuits, right, And so ultimately it 0:11:36.756 --> 0:11:38.796 is human connection that motivated me. And so it led 0:11:38.796 --> 0:11:41.716 me to study cognitive science, right like it led me 0:11:41.716 --> 0:11:44.196 to study the human mind, and it's led me to 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:47.236 do this podcast. That's a long winded way of saying 0:11:47.236 --> 0:11:51.316 that it's really helped me understand what losing the violin 0:11:51.356 --> 0:11:53.316 at such a formative period of my life taught me, 0:11:53.356 --> 0:11:56.756 as that I had to see my identity as more malleable. 0:11:57.436 --> 0:12:00.596 And it seems like Ruben did too. I love what 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:04.876 you just said. I can massively relate to that. I 0:12:04.916 --> 0:12:08.596 think that you know, yeah, Sound of Metal and Ruben's 0:12:08.636 --> 0:12:11.756 journey as a character does really interrogate this idea of identity. 0:12:11.796 --> 0:12:15.636 At the start of the movie, he's this, you know, 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:19.116 a drummer, a producer, a boyfriend who lives this itinerant 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:21.596 life on the road in a touring band, and at 0:12:21.596 --> 0:12:23.596 the end of the movie he's the opposite of pretty 0:12:23.676 --> 0:12:26.396 much all those things. What's interesting is at the start 0:12:26.396 --> 0:12:28.636 of the movie, you see him in almost a state 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:32.396 of undress. You know, he's shirtless, but in a way 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:34.756 he's he's wearing a mask. You know, he's hidden behind 0:12:34.756 --> 0:12:39.476 the fortress of his drums, the cannon. You know that 0:12:39.596 --> 0:12:41.556 he's kind of firing out of the world to keep 0:12:41.756 --> 0:12:43.796 keep the world at bay from getting close to him. 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:46.876 And he's hiding behind the mask of his blonde hair 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:49.276 and the mask of his tattoos. And by the end 0:12:49.316 --> 0:12:52.076 of it, he's like all you know, wrapped up in 0:12:52.116 --> 0:12:54.916 Paris and like a coat and everything, but in a 0:12:54.956 --> 0:12:57.316 way he's more naked than ever. He's taken the mask off. 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:00.836 And it's something I think about a lot, because you know, 0:13:00.876 --> 0:13:06.156 the malluability of identity is you know, sometimes becomes very 0:13:06.156 --> 0:13:08.436 apparent in these moments of crises. And I can very 0:13:08.516 --> 0:13:11.796 much relate to the experience you're talking about, and it's 0:13:11.796 --> 0:13:14.516 partly what drew me towards both Sound and Metal and 0:13:14.596 --> 0:13:17.716 Mogul Mowgli is going through a much smaller, but you know, 0:13:17.796 --> 0:13:20.876 similar experience to what those characters go through. Where I 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:23.876 kind of found myself kind of almost you know, in 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:27.036 a kind of state of physical you know, breakdown, just 0:13:27.156 --> 0:13:31.916 total exhaustion. My body just was just would not, you know, 0:13:31.956 --> 0:13:33.996 allow me to function at the pace I was anymore. 0:13:34.076 --> 0:13:36.916 My workaholism had kind of run its course and landed 0:13:36.916 --> 0:13:38.836 me at this crossroads where I wondered whether I could 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:44.596 continue doing what I'm doing, not just physically but also emotionally. 0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:48.796 And what I learned in that experience, which is, yeah, 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:52.196 the malleability of our identity, you know. And at some 0:13:52.316 --> 0:13:55.196 point you realize the work won't love you back. And 0:13:55.596 --> 0:13:57.396 at some point you realize, even if the work is 0:13:57.396 --> 0:14:00.356 a tool to get people to love you, that's never 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:03.596 going to be enough. It's about, you know, self love, 0:14:04.516 --> 0:14:07.876 and what does that mean? Accepting yourself? You know, the 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:11.036 person you know better than anyone, all the dirt, under 0:14:11.076 --> 0:14:13.716 the rug, the warts and all, you know, the stuff 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.396 that you don't anyone. You know that you've got to 0:14:15.436 --> 0:14:18.636 love that person, need to accept that person. So hard 0:14:18.676 --> 0:14:20.636 for so many of us, and particularly when you realize 0:14:20.796 --> 0:14:23.556 as performers, many of us, rather than look inwards, we're 0:14:23.556 --> 0:14:25.436 looking out to the audience. We're looking for that round 0:14:25.436 --> 0:14:28.036 of applause, you know, we're looking to have roses thrown 0:14:28.076 --> 0:14:31.436 at our feet as we bow because we've got that 0:14:31.516 --> 0:14:35.436 deficit of self love internally, and so I don't know 0:14:35.476 --> 0:14:37.756 that was having performance taken away from me. Having the 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:43.276 possibility of that external you know, fountain of validation taken 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:45.796 away from me forced me to look at that internal deficit, 0:14:45.916 --> 0:14:48.876 forced me to try and start exploring the story of 0:14:49.596 --> 0:14:53.036 self love. Look, I love what you say about this 0:14:53.076 --> 0:14:56.636 cloak we wear because I also another moment that really 0:14:56.676 --> 0:15:00.996 resonated with me and sounded metal is Rubin becomes absolutely 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.876 fixated on getting cochlear implants as the plot develops, right, 0:15:05.316 --> 0:15:08.396 thinking that's going to be the thing that solves my problems, 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:10.236 that's going to be the thing that solves my angst 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:13.636 and my anxiety. But it doesn't at all provide the 0:15:13.636 --> 0:15:15.796 relief that he had hoped for. But again, in these 0:15:15.876 --> 0:15:18.396 uncertain times, we just cling to the few things we 0:15:18.436 --> 0:15:21.436 feel are in our control, right, and we try to 0:15:21.516 --> 0:15:24.756 tie our future happiness to just those things. But you know, 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:27.756 of course the story is so much more complicated. Yeah, 0:15:27.916 --> 0:15:30.676 what do you feel you found in that process of 0:15:30.756 --> 0:15:33.876 letting go of control, in that experience with the violin 0:15:33.996 --> 0:15:37.556 or in other life experiences, like what's the kind of shift, 0:15:37.956 --> 0:15:42.196 the kind of attitudinal shift or that's taken place for you, 0:15:42.196 --> 0:15:44.276 because I mean, you know, I can share my own 0:15:44.316 --> 0:15:46.236 experience as well, but I'm interested to hear from you 0:15:46.276 --> 0:15:49.516 what has come up when you try to go down 0:15:49.556 --> 0:15:53.796 that road of acceptance. Yeah, it's and I definitely want 0:15:53.836 --> 0:15:56.916 to hear your thoughts on this. I think one lesson 0:15:56.996 --> 0:16:00.276 is a sobering one, which is, as humans, I think 0:16:00.316 --> 0:16:03.596 we can feel entitled to exactly what I was going 0:16:03.636 --> 0:16:11.636 to say, Yeah, gratitude rightsolutely, so you start off, especially 0:16:11.716 --> 0:16:13.996 when you're younger, though, I mean, honestly, this has followed 0:16:14.036 --> 0:16:16.796 me throughout life. You feel, look if I put in, 0:16:17.076 --> 0:16:19.676 if my inputs are there, right, if I try really hard, 0:16:19.716 --> 0:16:21.516 if I work really hard, if I crush every day, 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:24.716 like certainly it's an input output model, this life thing. 0:16:25.276 --> 0:16:27.676 And then shit hits the fan over and over again 0:16:27.756 --> 0:16:30.836 at various points in your life, and you realize control 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:35.716 is truly an illusion, and that bad things befall great 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:40.036 people all the time, and there's no in my mind sally, 0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:41.876 you know, I don't believe things happen for a reason. 0:16:41.956 --> 0:16:45.916 I just believe life is actually the randomness we see 0:16:45.956 --> 0:16:49.516 around us. And that's both a sad realization to have, 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:52.716 but it also is in my mind a more accurate 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:56.036 one to operate under, and to me that brings me 0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:58.076 some solace. Like when a bad thing happens, I don't 0:16:58.116 --> 0:17:00.396 feel it was willed by anyone or anything. I just 0:17:00.436 --> 0:17:04.276 think it is in that in the realm of randomness 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:07.156 that happens in our lives, that's so interesting. So it's 0:17:07.236 --> 0:17:11.116 it's kind of like it's basically I'm not taking it personally. 0:17:11.436 --> 0:17:16.076 It sounds like you're saying that for you, there's enough 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:21.556 peace in in depersonalizing the universe that you don't then 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:23.396 need to take an extra step, because I guess there's 0:17:23.396 --> 0:17:25.876 two ways, Like I guess step one is like bad 0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:28.916 things happen sometimes I'm taking them personally, and good things 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:33.436 happen sometimes I'm taking them personally. I'm special in the 0:17:33.436 --> 0:17:35.516 best and worst way. And then you can go one 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:37.236 of two ways. I guess the other one one of 0:17:37.276 --> 0:17:39.716 them is what you're saying, which is actually it's not 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:42.836 personal and you're not special. It just is, which I love. 0:17:43.556 --> 0:17:47.116 But I guess there's also another route, which has been interesting, 0:17:47.196 --> 0:17:53.716 which is good things and bad things happen for some 0:17:53.836 --> 0:17:56.756 kind of reason or that there or that there's some 0:17:56.836 --> 0:17:59.196 kind of lesson in there. Even if there isn't a lesson, 0:17:59.196 --> 0:18:02.876 even if they haven't happened for a reason, we can 0:18:02.916 --> 0:18:05.796 metabolize them into something that we can come out the 0:18:05.836 --> 0:18:08.916 other side stronger. We can. So there is some kind 0:18:08.916 --> 0:18:13.036 of spiritual board game that we're all playing that you 0:18:13.036 --> 0:18:16.596 can find a gift inside every challenge. And I kind 0:18:16.596 --> 0:18:18.756 of lead in that direction, not saying that your approach 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:22.076 you might not. I'm mutually exclusive, but I think they're compatible. 0:18:22.276 --> 0:18:24.756 Is I think the only change in word I would 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:26.676 use is rather than seeing it as a as a 0:18:26.716 --> 0:18:29.796 spiritual journey or spiritual outcome, I just see it as 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:32.316 a cognitive one, which is I think as humans we 0:18:32.396 --> 0:18:36.036 are natural born storytellers, and we will try and construct 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:38.836 narratives out of the randomness that happens to us, if 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:42.836 only to justify why things have happened to us. Right, 0:18:43.396 --> 0:18:46.516 It's effortless for us to search for silver linings, for example, 0:18:46.556 --> 0:18:50.196 after a tragedy, because it just feels like we must 0:18:50.236 --> 0:18:53.836 make sense of randomness. And so I find that even 0:18:53.836 --> 0:18:57.156 though again I don't think the universe had a reason 0:18:57.236 --> 0:18:59.436 behind it, that like this thing was meant to happen, 0:18:59.876 --> 0:19:03.116 I'm the same as you. I absolutely am looking for 0:19:03.476 --> 0:19:05.876 a lesson to be learned, a way to be stronger, 0:19:07.316 --> 0:19:09.836 something that I might pull from the experience that I 0:19:09.876 --> 0:19:11.836 might not have been able to pull from another experience. 0:19:11.916 --> 0:19:14.716 I entered the same psychology as you. I think we're 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:17.156 just calling it slightly different things. I love it, and 0:19:17.276 --> 0:19:23.516 I actually think that putting trauma, putting good luck, putting 0:19:23.596 --> 0:19:31.396 life like, shaping it into story is it's profoundly healing. 0:19:31.436 --> 0:19:34.556 I think it actually strengthens us. It strengthens our connections 0:19:34.556 --> 0:19:38.396 to each other and to ourselves. It's not just a 0:19:38.476 --> 0:19:41.036 kind of opium, yeah, that we kind of, you know, 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:46.316 indulge ourselves with. I think it's it's a core part 0:19:46.396 --> 0:19:49.276 of the equipment we've been given on this planet. To 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:53.396 like it, be at our best, connect with others and 0:19:53.556 --> 0:20:00.356 connect to ourselves. We'll be right back with a slight 0:20:00.436 --> 0:20:14.916 change of plans. Riz Ahmed's most recent film is called 0:20:14.996 --> 0:20:18.596 Mogul Mowgli, which he co wrote with director Bassam Tarik. 0:20:19.236 --> 0:20:22.356 It's the story of a British Pakistani rapper named Zed 0:20:22.836 --> 0:20:25.236 who's just reaching the height of his career when he's 0:20:25.276 --> 0:20:28.356 diagnosed with an autoimmune condition and winds up in the hospital. 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:31.596 It's a story about family, about where we come from 0:20:31.676 --> 0:20:34.676 and the meaning of home. Themes that Riz says are 0:20:34.716 --> 0:20:37.796 pulled from his real life. So it's a deeply kind 0:20:37.796 --> 0:20:40.636 of personal film. Bassama and I realized, you know, as 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:43.036 we became friends who were thinking about what we'd like 0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:45.516 to make together, is the one role I never get 0:20:45.556 --> 0:20:48.436 to play as someone like myself, The one story he 0:20:48.516 --> 0:20:52.956 never gets to tell is his story. I realized that 0:20:53.796 --> 0:20:56.596 up until his point as an actor, I've been kind 0:20:56.596 --> 0:21:02.676 of I'd become adept to molding masks and wearing them 0:21:02.836 --> 0:21:07.276 for the people and representing other people, and representing for 0:21:07.556 --> 0:21:11.196 other people a community would And I realized that actually 0:21:11.476 --> 0:21:14.236 the next stage of growth is about not molding and 0:21:14.276 --> 0:21:18.916 wearing masks, but taking them off. Not representing for others 0:21:19.036 --> 0:21:23.756 or representing others, just presenting yourself. And I've always been 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:26.836 driven by this idea, this mission of trying to stretch culture, 0:21:26.876 --> 0:21:29.076 and I realize, actually can tauting yourself to fit into 0:21:29.076 --> 0:21:35.596 other people's ready made molds maybe doesn't stretch culture as 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:41.756 much as contributing a new mold, you know, bringing all 0:21:41.756 --> 0:21:45.156 of yourself to the table. So often, you know, particularly 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:48.276 those of us have identities. We always taught to leave 0:21:48.276 --> 0:21:51.036 part of ourselves at the door, you know, And that's 0:21:51.076 --> 0:21:53.076 an amazing skill. You can build an acting career off 0:21:53.116 --> 0:21:54.756 of it, you know, from a young age, I'm kind 0:21:54.756 --> 0:21:57.156 of wearing shield of argems and speaking dut home. Then 0:21:57.196 --> 0:22:00.756 I'm you know, dressed in a suit and tie named 0:22:00.796 --> 0:22:05.796 after kind of India's colonial British rulers private school, and 0:22:05.836 --> 0:22:07.756 then I'm skipping class to hang out with my boys, 0:22:08.196 --> 0:22:10.396 you know, on the corner. And that's a totally different 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:13.636 hybrid culture as well. So I'm changing accents, changing costumes, 0:22:13.636 --> 0:22:17.676 playing these different characters. Being unable to bring all of 0:22:17.716 --> 0:22:20.436 myself to any of these environments means I'm acting. And 0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:22.516 you know that's great. That's a skill, but it can 0:22:22.596 --> 0:22:24.716 rob you of a core, and it can allow you 0:22:24.756 --> 0:22:27.036 to internalize this idea that there's something wrong with you. 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:31.396 It can really feed this lack of self love that again, 0:22:31.436 --> 0:22:34.756 in turn drives your need for validation and performance and 0:22:34.796 --> 0:22:37.236 wearing masks for other people's approval and to fit in. 0:22:37.276 --> 0:22:39.796 And so this film was very much about both me 0:22:40.316 --> 0:22:46.036 and Z trying to accept ourselves without a role or 0:22:46.076 --> 0:22:48.756 a mask to hide behind. Yeah, I mean, it can 0:22:48.796 --> 0:22:53.156 be so scary to look in the mirror so critically 0:22:53.196 --> 0:22:56.396 and so deeply, sometimes just for fear of what we 0:22:56.476 --> 0:22:59.756 might find. Did you face that? I mean, we're how 0:22:59.796 --> 0:23:02.916 did you overcome any anxieties associated with writing something and 0:23:02.956 --> 0:23:07.396 acting something that was so deeply personal? You know, honestly, 0:23:08.716 --> 0:23:12.316 this was very scary film to make, and I was 0:23:12.396 --> 0:23:14.236 kind of secretly hoping that no one would see it. 0:23:14.876 --> 0:23:17.116 So the fact that people are seeing and liking it 0:23:16.796 --> 0:23:21.316 is both lovely but terrifying. But also I'd say the 0:23:21.396 --> 0:23:23.716 fear of what I might find, or the fear of 0:23:23.756 --> 0:23:28.516 being judged, was outweighed by desperate need. I had to 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:31.436 try and make sense of some of this, to try 0:23:31.436 --> 0:23:37.036 and metabolize my own experience. The catharsis that that I 0:23:37.156 --> 0:23:40.436 knew might be possible. If I was able to shape 0:23:40.956 --> 0:23:43.756 all these disparate strands of my identity and all these 0:23:44.316 --> 0:23:49.396 weird contradictions of my experience into story, then it could 0:23:49.396 --> 0:23:52.636