1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:30,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I just kind of felt the tears on my 2 00:00:30,996 --> 00:00:32,396 Speaker 1: face and I was like, what the hell is going on? 3 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: That's what it's light. When you really communicate with sign language, 4 00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 1: you'll communicate with your whole body. That's a totally different 5 00:00:38,756 --> 00:00:44,076 Speaker 1: kind of communication than, you know, the transaction of just words. 6 00:00:44,836 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 1: That's riz Acmanon. He was nominated for an OSCAR for 7 00:00:47,916 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: his performance in the movie Sound of Metal. In the film, 8 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 1: he plays a musician who loses his hearing, and he 9 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:56,556 Speaker 1: says playing the part changed how he moves about in 10 00:00:56,596 --> 00:01:00,676 Speaker 1: this world. In his latest film, Mogul Mowgli, riz plays 11 00:01:00,676 --> 00:01:03,396 Speaker 1: a character based on his own life, and he says 12 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: that role changed how he sees himself. I realized that 13 00:01:08,516 --> 00:01:10,996 Speaker 1: up until his point as an actor, I'd become adept 14 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:17,796 Speaker 1: to molding masks and wearing them for other people and 15 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:21,996 Speaker 1: representing other people, and representing for other people a community 16 00:01:22,076 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I realized that actually, the next stage 17 00:01:25,196 --> 00:01:28,076 Speaker 1: of growth is about not molding and wearing masks, but 18 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:34,356 Speaker 1: taking them off. In this episode, what happens when an 19 00:01:34,396 --> 00:01:37,516 Speaker 1: actor takes the mask off and learns how to play himself. 20 00:01:39,836 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: I'm doctor Maya Schunker, a cognitive scientist who studies how 21 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:46,796 Speaker 1: and why we change. This is a slight change of plans, 22 00:01:47,196 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 23 00:01:49,916 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. You know. Typically 24 00:01:58,636 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans focuses on how people have 25 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:05,276 Speaker 1: navigated extraordinary change in their personal lives and what that's 26 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:07,876 Speaker 1: taught them about who they are in their identity and 27 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:11,316 Speaker 1: how they've shifted perspectives as a result of this big change. 28 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 1: With your interview in particular, I'm flipping it a bit, 29 00:02:14,756 --> 00:02:18,476 Speaker 1: which is, you're obviously a highly skilled actor, and I 30 00:02:18,516 --> 00:02:22,276 Speaker 1: want to hear how embodying distinct roles in your career 31 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:25,516 Speaker 1: has changed you in some ways, right, your understanding of 32 00:02:25,556 --> 00:02:29,036 Speaker 1: the world, the world around you, because I imagine that 33 00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:32,276 Speaker 1: sometimes the best way to learn about who we are 34 00:02:32,596 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: is to see undiscovered parts of ourselves reflected in the 35 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:39,636 Speaker 1: characters that we play, right, absolutely, That sounds amazing. Well, 36 00:02:39,916 --> 00:02:42,836 Speaker 1: thank you. So to start off it sounded metal. Do 37 00:02:42,876 --> 00:02:45,076 Speaker 1: you mind for listeners who haven't seen the film, can 38 00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:49,276 Speaker 1: you just give a quick synopsis? Yeah? Sure so. Sound 39 00:02:49,276 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 1: of Metal is the story of Rubin and Lou. There 40 00:02:53,396 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: are a couple, they live on the road. They're in 41 00:02:55,636 --> 00:02:58,116 Speaker 1: a band together they live together, so it's kind of 42 00:02:58,116 --> 00:03:01,236 Speaker 1: them against the world in their little cocoon. And you know, 43 00:03:01,356 --> 00:03:04,876 Speaker 1: all of a sudden rubin the drama and the producer 44 00:03:04,916 --> 00:03:10,676 Speaker 1: of this duo loses his hearing. It's a sudden onset 45 00:03:10,916 --> 00:03:17,516 Speaker 1: hearing loss. And what ends up happening is he questions 46 00:03:18,036 --> 00:03:20,196 Speaker 1: his place in the world, his place in the relationship, 47 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:23,356 Speaker 1: his worth and value in the band, and inevitably it 48 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:30,636 Speaker 1: triggers some of his issues with addiction, and so his 49 00:03:30,836 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: entire life is derailed. And yet in that process of 50 00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: relinquishing all those roles and identities that he used to 51 00:03:39,476 --> 00:03:42,316 Speaker 1: define himself through, he actually kind of finds himself and 52 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 1: connects to a part of himself that he didn't know 53 00:03:46,036 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 1: was there, that he didn't know he needed to. It's 54 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:53,596 Speaker 1: beautiful and curious. What did you learn about the deaf 55 00:03:53,636 --> 00:03:57,916 Speaker 1: community by immersing yourself in it for this role? So 56 00:03:57,916 --> 00:04:01,036 Speaker 1: so much? I mean, I thought I just signed up 57 00:04:01,076 --> 00:04:03,956 Speaker 1: to learn American sign language and learn how to play 58 00:04:03,996 --> 00:04:06,236 Speaker 1: the drums, But what I learned was so so much more. 59 00:04:06,756 --> 00:04:08,876 Speaker 1: I feel like the deaf community taught me the meaning 60 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:13,036 Speaker 1: of the word communication. I feel like the deaf community 61 00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:15,756 Speaker 1: taught me what listening really is Listening isn't something you 62 00:04:15,796 --> 00:04:17,196 Speaker 1: just do with your ears. It's something you do with 63 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:22,916 Speaker 1: your entire body, with your energy, by holding space for 64 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:26,276 Speaker 1: someone else with your attention. You know, it's an act 65 00:04:26,276 --> 00:04:30,036 Speaker 1: of love listening, and it's something that is it's an 66 00:04:30,036 --> 00:04:35,076 Speaker 1: all body activity. And similarly with communication, you know, I 67 00:04:35,196 --> 00:04:39,596 Speaker 1: kind of found myself getting far more emotional talking about 68 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 1: you know, certain topics and sign language than I would 69 00:04:42,396 --> 00:04:44,236 Speaker 1: or if I if I had the mask of words 70 00:04:44,276 --> 00:04:47,876 Speaker 1: to hide behind. I think of Jeremy Stone, my sign instructor, 71 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:51,156 Speaker 1: who told me that there's this trope in the deaf 72 00:04:51,196 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 1: community that hearing people are emotionally repressed because they hide 73 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: behind words, and the deaf community is so much about 74 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 1: communication and embodied communication rather than physiological listening. That yeah, 75 00:05:05,956 --> 00:05:07,276 Speaker 1: it really kind of worked me up to what those 76 00:05:07,316 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 1: words really mean. You give an example of how that 77 00:05:10,596 --> 00:05:16,996 Speaker 1: expressed itself in you. Yes, So one example is, you know, 78 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:19,876 Speaker 1: Jeremy and I would meet up every day to him 79 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 1: to teach me sign language for a couple of hours 80 00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:24,276 Speaker 1: every morning for about seven months. And over that period 81 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:27,196 Speaker 1: of time, you know, you quickly move past you know, 82 00:05:27,476 --> 00:05:30,916 Speaker 1: grammar and vocabulary and your starts becoming each other's therapists 83 00:05:30,956 --> 00:05:34,356 Speaker 1: and each other's kind of best buddies. And I remember 84 00:05:34,356 --> 00:05:36,116 Speaker 1: it was a moment we were just both talking about 85 00:05:36,156 --> 00:05:41,436 Speaker 1: our lives, really our experiences, talking actually about how they 86 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:44,156 Speaker 1: might have overlapped with the characters of Ruben, that the 87 00:05:44,276 --> 00:05:47,756 Speaker 1: idea of kind of feeling like an outsider, always looking 88 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: for that place that you might belong and finding that 89 00:05:50,876 --> 00:05:53,156 Speaker 1: you didn't, so having to create your own place and belonging. 90 00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 1: And I think we were just talking about high school, 91 00:05:57,036 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 1: you know, and our experiences, and it couldn't have been 92 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:03,676 Speaker 1: more different. You grew up, you know, Afro Latin in Harlem, 93 00:06:04,116 --> 00:06:06,716 Speaker 1: a deaf kid in a hearing school, you know, I 94 00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:09,636 Speaker 1: grew up British Pakistani working class in a push white 95 00:06:09,676 --> 00:06:12,636 Speaker 1: private school in the suburbs. But there was just some 96 00:06:12,716 --> 00:06:15,436 Speaker 1: overlap and we were just talking and HAS found myself 97 00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:20,156 Speaker 1: welling up and I just kind of felt the tears 98 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: on my face and I was like, what the hell 99 00:06:21,396 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 1: is going on? And he kind of that's when he 100 00:06:24,356 --> 00:06:27,996 Speaker 1: stopped me and said, that's that's what it's light. When 101 00:06:27,996 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 1: you really communicate with sign language, you're communicate with your 102 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:33,716 Speaker 1: whole body. Your body's reliving the experience and you're transmitting 103 00:06:33,756 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 1: that to me with your energy. That's a totally different 104 00:06:36,516 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: kind of communication than, you know, the transaction of just words. Yeah, 105 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:46,236 Speaker 1: it's so interesting you say this. I know we're both 106 00:06:46,316 --> 00:06:48,996 Speaker 1: We were both at Oxford at various points, and my 107 00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,796 Speaker 1: thesis was about multisensory perception and the fact that it 108 00:06:52,836 --> 00:06:55,956 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to study the senses and isolation. What 109 00:06:56,076 --> 00:06:58,356 Speaker 1: we see can affect what we hear, what we taste 110 00:06:58,396 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 1: can affect what we touch, And my research was on 111 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 1: how our high level expectations of the world infiltrate all 112 00:07:05,676 --> 00:07:08,636 Speaker 1: of our sensory perception. Right, The attitudes and beliefs that 113 00:07:08,676 --> 00:07:11,396 Speaker 1: we bring to the table affect everything, and so we 114 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:15,396 Speaker 1: sometimes can feel like we're passive recipients of sensory inputs, 115 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 1: but actually the emotions that we have, the belief systems 116 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:23,356 Speaker 1: we carry, they inform that sensory perception in critical ways. Right, 117 00:07:23,396 --> 00:07:26,596 Speaker 1: it's a bidirectional route. Absolutely. Well, it's fascinating. So the 118 00:07:26,636 --> 00:07:32,756 Speaker 1: idea that there's no yeah, objective perception. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, 119 00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: we're kind of yeah, character baggage history, you know, backstory, 120 00:07:39,156 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: if you will. In acting parlance, that's those are the 121 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:46,676 Speaker 1: goggles that you're viewing the world through exactly. You know, 122 00:07:46,676 --> 00:07:50,476 Speaker 1: there's this poignant moment when Reuben is at the doctor's 123 00:07:50,516 --> 00:07:54,276 Speaker 1: office because he's just had profound hearing loss, and he 124 00:07:54,396 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: naively assumes that there has to be a solution to 125 00:07:57,076 --> 00:08:00,596 Speaker 1: his plight, right, he resists any implication that the road 126 00:08:00,596 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 1: ahead will be far more complex. I see that. So 127 00:08:04,516 --> 00:08:08,236 Speaker 1: what can we do about it? How do I get 128 00:08:08,276 --> 00:08:14,236 Speaker 1: it back? Well, you have to understand something here. Whether 129 00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:18,116 Speaker 1: or not this is related to your exposure to noise 130 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:23,916 Speaker 1: or it's an autoimmune issue, doesn't really matter. I understand 131 00:08:23,956 --> 00:08:26,236 Speaker 1: I've got a problem. I'm asking you what I could 132 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 1: do about it. You know, I think so many of 133 00:08:28,716 --> 00:08:31,996 Speaker 1: us in our lives experience this kind of denial in 134 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 1: the face of an unwanted change. You know. It's so 135 00:08:34,676 --> 00:08:37,716 Speaker 1: it's such a relatable moment, and so I was curious 136 00:08:37,716 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 1: to know whether you've also had that kind of instinct 137 00:08:41,036 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 1: at moments in your life where you've been you've either 138 00:08:44,676 --> 00:08:48,436 Speaker 1: been at a crossroads, you've experienced unwanted change, where you're 139 00:08:48,436 --> 00:08:51,756 Speaker 1: just hoping for that simple answer, that's simple fix. I think, 140 00:08:52,116 --> 00:08:56,996 Speaker 1: in smaller ways, almost every day I find myself, you know, 141 00:08:57,036 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 1: trying to look for simplistic solutions rather than the complex, 142 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:07,476 Speaker 1: embracing the complexity of acceptance, you know, and it's it's 143 00:09:07,556 --> 00:09:11,116 Speaker 1: a it's a daily practice, is right, you know. Surrender 144 00:09:11,276 --> 00:09:14,836 Speaker 1: and submission and an acceptance is something that is actually 145 00:09:14,836 --> 00:09:17,436 Speaker 1: comes up in the film a lot Um. You know, 146 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:20,036 Speaker 1: the idea of the addict looking for a fix, as 147 00:09:20,076 --> 00:09:22,116 Speaker 1: in a hit of drugs, it's also the addict looking 148 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:27,196 Speaker 1: for a fix a way of you know, um, making 149 00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:30,156 Speaker 1: things feel better. You know. If that's what the hit 150 00:09:30,196 --> 00:09:32,756 Speaker 1: of drugs do, that's what the hit of dopamine does. 151 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 1: That's what um, the adrenaline does for the workaholic, you know, 152 00:09:37,196 --> 00:09:42,236 Speaker 1: like myself, or that's also um, you know, papering over 153 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:48,996 Speaker 1: the cracks with some some kind of illusion of solving. Um. Yeah, 154 00:09:49,076 --> 00:09:52,436 Speaker 1: it's it makes things feel better, but it's but it's 155 00:09:52,436 --> 00:09:55,876 Speaker 1: not engaging with the world as it is. And yeah, 156 00:09:55,916 --> 00:09:59,836 Speaker 1: I'm constantly in that place, I mean saying all the 157 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:06,156 Speaker 1: things that I struggle with, like terrible surrendering, Oh my gosh. 158 00:10:06,196 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 1: I mean one thing I found so much resonance in 159 00:10:08,516 --> 00:10:11,676 Speaker 1: Reuben's story because a quick personal aside, which is I 160 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:14,836 Speaker 1: was a concert violetist as a kid and a sudden 161 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 1: acute injury in my hand derailed my musical career, and 162 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: it was so clear to everyone Riz other than me, 163 00:10:22,636 --> 00:10:26,596 Speaker 1: that my journey was over and slowly over the years. 164 00:10:27,876 --> 00:10:29,796 Speaker 1: And I think this touches on some of the themes 165 00:10:29,996 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 1: in Sound of Metal and in Mogil Mogley you have 166 00:10:33,156 --> 00:10:36,676 Speaker 1: to figure out who you are outside of that one pursuit. 167 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:40,196 Speaker 1: It calls into question this very natural question we all 168 00:10:40,236 --> 00:10:42,956 Speaker 1: ask ourselves, which is who are we right? You know, 169 00:10:42,996 --> 00:10:46,556 Speaker 1: in cognitive science there's this term called identity foreclosure, and 170 00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 1: it does refer to the idea that we can feel 171 00:10:49,676 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 1: very fixed in our sense of selves, especially early in adolescence, 172 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:59,156 Speaker 1: and that identity prevents us from exploring other alternatives, other avenues, 173 00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:02,316 Speaker 1: other identities that we can embody. And so, you know, 174 00:11:02,316 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 1: I think if you had asked me as a young kid, 175 00:11:03,796 --> 00:11:05,876 Speaker 1: what do you love about the violin? I would have said, well, 176 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:07,716 Speaker 1: I love how it feels, I love how it sounds. 177 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 1: Actually what I love of Riz And maybe you can 178 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: relate to this as an actor, as I could get 179 00:11:12,916 --> 00:11:16,636 Speaker 1: onto a stage in front of thousands of strangers and 180 00:11:16,676 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: within moments I could make them feel something that they 181 00:11:20,116 --> 00:11:23,676 Speaker 1: had never felt before. And that was so intoxicating and 182 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 1: so powerful that when I realized, well, this is a 183 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: trait of music that made me happy, I might have 184 00:11:30,156 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 1: lost the violin, but let me try to find that 185 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:36,716 Speaker 1: trait elsewhere in other pursuits, right, And so ultimately it 186 00:11:36,756 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: is human connection that motivated me. And so it led 187 00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:41,716 Speaker 1: me to study cognitive science, right like it led me 188 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:44,196 Speaker 1: to study the human mind, and it's led me to 189 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:47,236 Speaker 1: do this podcast. That's a long winded way of saying 190 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:51,316 Speaker 1: that it's really helped me understand what losing the violin 191 00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:53,316 Speaker 1: at such a formative period of my life taught me, 192 00:11:53,356 --> 00:11:56,756 Speaker 1: as that I had to see my identity as more malleable. 193 00:11:57,436 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: And it seems like Ruben did too. I love what 194 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:04,876 Speaker 1: you just said. I can massively relate to that. I 195 00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: think that you know, yeah, Sound of Metal and Ruben's 196 00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:11,756 Speaker 1: journey as a character does really interrogate this idea of identity. 197 00:12:11,796 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 1: At the start of the movie, he's this, you know, 198 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: a drummer, a producer, a boyfriend who lives this itinerant 199 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,596 Speaker 1: life on the road in a touring band, and at 200 00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 1: the end of the movie he's the opposite of pretty 201 00:12:23,676 --> 00:12:26,396 Speaker 1: much all those things. What's interesting is at the start 202 00:12:26,396 --> 00:12:28,636 Speaker 1: of the movie, you see him in almost a state 203 00:12:28,676 --> 00:12:32,396 Speaker 1: of undress. You know, he's shirtless, but in a way 204 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:34,756 Speaker 1: he's he's wearing a mask. You know, he's hidden behind 205 00:12:34,756 --> 00:12:39,476 Speaker 1: the fortress of his drums, the cannon. You know that 206 00:12:39,596 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: he's kind of firing out of the world to keep 207 00:12:41,756 --> 00:12:43,796 Speaker 1: keep the world at bay from getting close to him. 208 00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 1: And he's hiding behind the mask of his blonde hair 209 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 1: and the mask of his tattoos. And by the end 210 00:12:49,316 --> 00:12:52,076 Speaker 1: of it, he's like all you know, wrapped up in 211 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:54,916 Speaker 1: Paris and like a coat and everything, but in a 212 00:12:54,956 --> 00:12:57,316 Speaker 1: way he's more naked than ever. He's taken the mask off. 213 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:00,836 Speaker 1: And it's something I think about a lot, because you know, 214 00:13:00,876 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: the malluability of identity is you know, sometimes becomes very 215 00:13:06,156 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: apparent in these moments of crises. And I can very 216 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,796 Speaker 1: much relate to the experience you're talking about, and it's 217 00:13:11,796 --> 00:13:14,516 Speaker 1: partly what drew me towards both Sound and Metal and 218 00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 1: Mogul Mowgli is going through a much smaller, but you know, 219 00:13:17,796 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 1: similar experience to what those characters go through. Where I 220 00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:23,876 Speaker 1: kind of found myself kind of almost you know, in 221 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 1: a kind of state of physical you know, breakdown, just 222 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:31,916 Speaker 1: total exhaustion. My body just was just would not, you know, 223 00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:33,996 Speaker 1: allow me to function at the pace I was anymore. 224 00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:36,916 Speaker 1: My workaholism had kind of run its course and landed 225 00:13:36,916 --> 00:13:38,836 Speaker 1: me at this crossroads where I wondered whether I could 226 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:44,596 Speaker 1: continue doing what I'm doing, not just physically but also emotionally. 227 00:13:45,076 --> 00:13:48,796 Speaker 1: And what I learned in that experience, which is, yeah, 228 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:52,196 Speaker 1: the malleability of our identity, you know. And at some 229 00:13:52,316 --> 00:13:55,196 Speaker 1: point you realize the work won't love you back. And 230 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:57,396 Speaker 1: at some point you realize, even if the work is 231 00:13:57,396 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: a tool to get people to love you, that's never 232 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:03,596 Speaker 1: going to be enough. It's about, you know, self love, 233 00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:07,876 Speaker 1: and what does that mean? Accepting yourself? You know, the 234 00:14:07,916 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: person you know better than anyone, all the dirt, under 235 00:14:11,076 --> 00:14:13,716 Speaker 1: the rug, the warts and all, you know, the stuff 236 00:14:13,716 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 1: that you don't anyone. You know that you've got to 237 00:14:15,436 --> 00:14:18,636 Speaker 1: love that person, need to accept that person. So hard 238 00:14:18,676 --> 00:14:20,636 Speaker 1: for so many of us, and particularly when you realize 239 00:14:20,796 --> 00:14:23,556 Speaker 1: as performers, many of us, rather than look inwards, we're 240 00:14:23,556 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: looking out to the audience. We're looking for that round 241 00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:28,036 Speaker 1: of applause, you know, we're looking to have roses thrown 242 00:14:28,076 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: at our feet as we bow because we've got that 243 00:14:31,516 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: deficit of self love internally, and so I don't know 244 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:37,756 Speaker 1: that was having performance taken away from me. Having the 245 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: possibility of that external you know, fountain of validation taken 246 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: away from me forced me to look at that internal deficit, 247 00:14:45,916 --> 00:14:48,876 Speaker 1: forced me to try and start exploring the story of 248 00:14:49,596 --> 00:14:53,036 Speaker 1: self love. Look, I love what you say about this 249 00:14:53,076 --> 00:14:56,636 Speaker 1: cloak we wear because I also another moment that really 250 00:14:56,676 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: resonated with me and sounded metal is Rubin becomes absolutely 251 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 1: fixated on getting cochlear implants as the plot develops, right, 252 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: thinking that's going to be the thing that solves my problems, 253 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: that's going to be the thing that solves my angst 254 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 1: and my anxiety. But it doesn't at all provide the 255 00:15:13,636 --> 00:15:15,796 Speaker 1: relief that he had hoped for. But again, in these 256 00:15:15,876 --> 00:15:18,396 Speaker 1: uncertain times, we just cling to the few things we 257 00:15:18,436 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 1: feel are in our control, right, and we try to 258 00:15:21,516 --> 00:15:24,756 Speaker 1: tie our future happiness to just those things. But you know, 259 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,756 Speaker 1: of course the story is so much more complicated. Yeah, 260 00:15:27,916 --> 00:15:30,676 Speaker 1: what do you feel you found in that process of 261 00:15:30,756 --> 00:15:33,876 Speaker 1: letting go of control, in that experience with the violin 262 00:15:33,996 --> 00:15:37,556 Speaker 1: or in other life experiences, like what's the kind of shift, 263 00:15:37,956 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 1: the kind of attitudinal shift or that's taken place for you, 264 00:15:42,196 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 1: because I mean, you know, I can share my own 265 00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 1: experience as well, but I'm interested to hear from you 266 00:15:46,276 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 1: what has come up when you try to go down 267 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:53,796 Speaker 1: that road of acceptance. Yeah, it's and I definitely want 268 00:15:53,836 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on this. I think one lesson 269 00:15:56,996 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: is a sobering one, which is, as humans, I think 270 00:16:00,316 --> 00:16:03,596 Speaker 1: we can feel entitled to exactly what I was going 271 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:11,636 Speaker 1: to say, Yeah, gratitude rightsolutely, so you start off, especially 272 00:16:11,716 --> 00:16:13,996 Speaker 1: when you're younger, though, I mean, honestly, this has followed 273 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: me throughout life. You feel, look if I put in, 274 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:19,676 Speaker 1: if my inputs are there, right, if I try really hard, 275 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:21,516 Speaker 1: if I work really hard, if I crush every day, 276 00:16:21,596 --> 00:16:24,716 Speaker 1: like certainly it's an input output model, this life thing. 277 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:27,676 Speaker 1: And then shit hits the fan over and over again 278 00:16:27,756 --> 00:16:30,836 Speaker 1: at various points in your life, and you realize control 279 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 1: is truly an illusion, and that bad things befall great 280 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:40,036 Speaker 1: people all the time, and there's no in my mind sally, 281 00:16:40,076 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 1: you know, I don't believe things happen for a reason. 282 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: I just believe life is actually the randomness we see 283 00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:49,516 Speaker 1: around us. And that's both a sad realization to have, 284 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 1: but it also is in my mind a more accurate 285 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:56,036 Speaker 1: one to operate under, and to me that brings me 286 00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:58,076 Speaker 1: some solace. Like when a bad thing happens, I don't 287 00:16:58,116 --> 00:17:00,396 Speaker 1: feel it was willed by anyone or anything. I just 288 00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:04,276 Speaker 1: think it is in that in the realm of randomness 289 00:17:04,316 --> 00:17:07,156 Speaker 1: that happens in our lives, that's so interesting. So it's 290 00:17:07,236 --> 00:17:11,116 Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's basically I'm not taking it personally. 291 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:16,076 Speaker 1: It sounds like you're saying that for you, there's enough 292 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:21,556 Speaker 1: peace in in depersonalizing the universe that you don't then 293 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:23,396 Speaker 1: need to take an extra step, because I guess there's 294 00:17:23,396 --> 00:17:25,876 Speaker 1: two ways, Like I guess step one is like bad 295 00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 1: things happen sometimes I'm taking them personally, and good things 296 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:33,436 Speaker 1: happen sometimes I'm taking them personally. I'm special in the 297 00:17:33,436 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 1: best and worst way. And then you can go one 298 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 1: of two ways. I guess the other one one of 299 00:17:37,276 --> 00:17:39,716 Speaker 1: them is what you're saying, which is actually it's not 300 00:17:39,796 --> 00:17:42,836 Speaker 1: personal and you're not special. It just is, which I love. 301 00:17:43,556 --> 00:17:47,116 Speaker 1: But I guess there's also another route, which has been interesting, 302 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:53,716 Speaker 1: which is good things and bad things happen for some 303 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:56,756 Speaker 1: kind of reason or that there or that there's some 304 00:17:56,836 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: kind of lesson in there. Even if there isn't a lesson, 305 00:17:59,196 --> 00:18:02,876 Speaker 1: even if they haven't happened for a reason, we can 306 00:18:02,916 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 1: metabolize them into something that we can come out the 307 00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:08,916 Speaker 1: other side stronger. We can. So there is some kind 308 00:18:08,916 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 1: of spiritual board game that we're all playing that you 309 00:18:13,036 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: can find a gift inside every challenge. And I kind 310 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:18,756 Speaker 1: of lead in that direction, not saying that your approach 311 00:18:18,796 --> 00:18:22,076 Speaker 1: you might not. I'm mutually exclusive, but I think they're compatible. 312 00:18:22,276 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 1: Is I think the only change in word I would 313 00:18:24,836 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 1: use is rather than seeing it as a as a 314 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,796 Speaker 1: spiritual journey or spiritual outcome, I just see it as 315 00:18:29,796 --> 00:18:32,316 Speaker 1: a cognitive one, which is I think as humans we 316 00:18:32,396 --> 00:18:36,036 Speaker 1: are natural born storytellers, and we will try and construct 317 00:18:36,116 --> 00:18:38,836 Speaker 1: narratives out of the randomness that happens to us, if 318 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:42,836 Speaker 1: only to justify why things have happened to us. Right, 319 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:46,516 Speaker 1: It's effortless for us to search for silver linings, for example, 320 00:18:46,556 --> 00:18:50,196 Speaker 1: after a tragedy, because it just feels like we must 321 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:53,836 Speaker 1: make sense of randomness. And so I find that even 322 00:18:53,836 --> 00:18:57,156 Speaker 1: though again I don't think the universe had a reason 323 00:18:57,236 --> 00:18:59,436 Speaker 1: behind it, that like this thing was meant to happen, 324 00:18:59,876 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 1: I'm the same as you. I absolutely am looking for 325 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:05,876 Speaker 1: a lesson to be learned, a way to be stronger, 326 00:19:07,316 --> 00:19:09,836 Speaker 1: something that I might pull from the experience that I 327 00:19:09,876 --> 00:19:11,836 Speaker 1: might not have been able to pull from another experience. 328 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:14,716 Speaker 1: I entered the same psychology as you. I think we're 329 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: just calling it slightly different things. I love it, and 330 00:19:17,276 --> 00:19:23,516 Speaker 1: I actually think that putting trauma, putting good luck, putting 331 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:31,396 Speaker 1: life like, shaping it into story is it's profoundly healing. 332 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,556 Speaker 1: I think it actually strengthens us. It strengthens our connections 333 00:19:34,556 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 1: to each other and to ourselves. It's not just a 334 00:19:38,476 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 1: kind of opium, yeah, that we kind of, you know, 335 00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 1: indulge ourselves with. I think it's it's a core part 336 00:19:46,396 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 1: of the equipment we've been given on this planet. To 337 00:19:49,516 --> 00:19:53,396 Speaker 1: like it, be at our best, connect with others and 338 00:19:53,556 --> 00:20:00,356 Speaker 1: connect to ourselves. We'll be right back with a slight 339 00:20:00,436 --> 00:20:14,916 Speaker 1: change of plans. Riz Ahmed's most recent film is called 340 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:18,596 Speaker 1: Mogul Mowgli, which he co wrote with director Bassam Tarik. 341 00:20:19,236 --> 00:20:22,356 Speaker 1: It's the story of a British Pakistani rapper named Zed 342 00:20:22,836 --> 00:20:25,236 Speaker 1: who's just reaching the height of his career when he's 343 00:20:25,276 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 1: diagnosed with an autoimmune condition and winds up in the hospital. 344 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:31,596 Speaker 1: It's a story about family, about where we come from 345 00:20:31,676 --> 00:20:34,676 Speaker 1: and the meaning of home. Themes that Riz says are 346 00:20:34,716 --> 00:20:37,796 Speaker 1: pulled from his real life. So it's a deeply kind 347 00:20:37,796 --> 00:20:40,636 Speaker 1: of personal film. Bassama and I realized, you know, as 348 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:43,036 Speaker 1: we became friends who were thinking about what we'd like 349 00:20:43,116 --> 00:20:45,516 Speaker 1: to make together, is the one role I never get 350 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 1: to play as someone like myself, The one story he 351 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:52,956 Speaker 1: never gets to tell is his story. I realized that 352 00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:56,596 Speaker 1: up until his point as an actor, I've been kind 353 00:20:56,596 --> 00:21:02,676 Speaker 1: of I'd become adept to molding masks and wearing them 354 00:21:02,836 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: for the people and representing other people, and representing for 355 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:11,196 Speaker 1: other people a community would And I realized that actually 356 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:14,236 Speaker 1: the next stage of growth is about not molding and 357 00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:18,916 Speaker 1: wearing masks, but taking them off. Not representing for others 358 00:21:19,036 --> 00:21:23,756 Speaker 1: or representing others, just presenting yourself. And I've always been 359 00:21:23,796 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 1: driven by this idea, this mission of trying to stretch culture, 360 00:21:26,876 --> 00:21:29,076 Speaker 1: and I realize, actually can tauting yourself to fit into 361 00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 1: other people's ready made molds maybe doesn't stretch culture as 362 00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:41,756 Speaker 1: much as contributing a new mold, you know, bringing all 363 00:21:41,756 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: of yourself to the table. So often, you know, particularly 364 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 1: those of us have identities. We always taught to leave 365 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:51,036 Speaker 1: part of ourselves at the door, you know, And that's 366 00:21:51,076 --> 00:21:53,076 Speaker 1: an amazing skill. You can build an acting career off 367 00:21:53,116 --> 00:21:54,756 Speaker 1: of it, you know, from a young age, I'm kind 368 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:57,156 Speaker 1: of wearing shield of argems and speaking dut home. Then 369 00:21:57,196 --> 00:22:00,756 Speaker 1: I'm you know, dressed in a suit and tie named 370 00:22:00,796 --> 00:22:05,796 Speaker 1: after kind of India's colonial British rulers private school, and 371 00:22:05,836 --> 00:22:07,756 Speaker 1: then I'm skipping class to hang out with my boys, 372 00:22:08,196 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 1: you know, on the corner. And that's a totally different 373 00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:13,636 Speaker 1: hybrid culture as well. So I'm changing accents, changing costumes, 374 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:17,676 Speaker 1: playing these different characters. Being unable to bring all of 375 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:20,436 Speaker 1: myself to any of these environments means I'm acting. And 376 00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:22,516 Speaker 1: you know that's great. That's a skill, but it can 377 00:22:22,596 --> 00:22:24,716 Speaker 1: rob you of a core, and it can allow you 378 00:22:24,756 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 1: to internalize this idea that there's something wrong with you. 379 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: It can really feed this lack of self love that again, 380 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:34,756 Speaker 1: in turn drives your need for validation and performance and 381 00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:37,236 Speaker 1: wearing masks for other people's approval and to fit in. 382 00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: And so this film was very much about both me 383 00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:46,036 Speaker 1: and Z trying to accept ourselves without a role or 384 00:22:46,076 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 1: a mask to hide behind. Yeah, I mean, it can 385 00:22:48,796 --> 00:22:53,156 Speaker 1: be so scary to look in the mirror so critically 386 00:22:53,196 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 1: and so deeply, sometimes just for fear of what we 387 00:22:56,476 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 1: might find. Did you face that? I mean, we're how 388 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:02,916 Speaker 1: did you overcome any anxieties associated with writing something and 389 00:23:02,956 --> 00:23:07,396 Speaker 1: acting something that was so deeply personal? You know, honestly, 390 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 1: this was very scary film to make, and I was 391 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:14,236 Speaker 1: kind of secretly hoping that no one would see it. 392 00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 1: So the fact that people are seeing and liking it 393 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:21,316 Speaker 1: is both lovely but terrifying. But also I'd say the 394 00:23:21,396 --> 00:23:23,716 Speaker 1: fear of what I might find, or the fear of 395 00:23:23,756 --> 00:23:28,516 Speaker 1: being judged, was outweighed by desperate need. I had to 396 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:31,436 Speaker 1: try and make sense of some of this, to try 397 00:23:31,436 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 1: and metabolize my own experience. The catharsis that that I 398 00:23:37,156 --> 00:23:40,436 Speaker 1: knew might be possible. If I was able to shape 399 00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:43,756 Speaker 1: all these disparate strands of my identity and all these 400 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: weird contradictions of my experience into story, then it could 401 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:52,636 Speaker 1: cohere as a story. Then it would help it to 402 00:23:52,836 --> 00:23:56,516 Speaker 1: cohere for me internally, you know, in my life. Was 403 00:23:56,516 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 1: there something specific that writing Z taught you about yourself? 404 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:07,436 Speaker 1: It was interesting because with sound a metal, you know, 405 00:24:07,476 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 1: the script was written it was a master piece by 406 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 1: Darius Smyder. So I can look at it and step 407 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:13,516 Speaker 1: back from it, and as you said, start at this 408 00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:16,276 Speaker 1: starting point of sitting outside of it, thinking, oh, what 409 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 1: is Ruben learning? What is this journey? What is his arc? 410 00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:20,916 Speaker 1: And you know, it's interesting because when I was taking 411 00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 1: on the character of Ruben, I thought, Okay, well, this 412 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 1: guy's nothing like me, you know, And then you start 413 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:28,436 Speaker 1: playing any character and this is a journey you always 414 00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:31,196 Speaker 1: go on with every character, and hopefully the journey the 415 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: audience goes on with that character as well. You start 416 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 1: off going all right, who's this Guy's nothing like me? 417 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 1: And by the end of it, you're like, I'm exactly 418 00:24:37,676 --> 00:24:41,516 Speaker 1: this person. And that's because you know, I mean, my 419 00:24:41,556 --> 00:24:44,836 Speaker 1: belief is that the differences that seemingly separate us are 420 00:24:44,876 --> 00:24:47,236 Speaker 1: an illusion. Deep down, we are we all share the 421 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:51,396 Speaker 1: same emotional core. We have different experiences, belief thoughts, but 422 00:24:51,436 --> 00:24:54,276 Speaker 1: we all feel the same things. And that's kind of 423 00:24:54,276 --> 00:24:56,756 Speaker 1: where we are in that super feeling that we all ship. 424 00:24:57,076 --> 00:24:59,476 Speaker 1: But I was like, I'm not an addict. Whatever this 425 00:24:59,516 --> 00:25:01,316 Speaker 1: is going to be research, I'll go to my first 426 00:25:01,396 --> 00:25:06,396 Speaker 1: kind of addiction recovery meeting and I'm like, just I 427 00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:08,956 Speaker 1: feel like, did someone read my diary? Like what this 428 00:25:09,196 --> 00:25:12,396 Speaker 1: is all about me? I mean, I, you know, I 429 00:25:12,396 --> 00:25:15,236 Speaker 1: haven't if it's from substance abuse in that way, but 430 00:25:15,316 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: it's like I don't know, just that the patterns, the behaviors, 431 00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:22,836 Speaker 1: the attitude, the entitlement, that the tragedy of uniqueness, you know, 432 00:25:22,876 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 1: all of this kind of stuff with Mogul Mowgli. In 433 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:29,516 Speaker 1: a way, even though the character, you know, it's starting point, 434 00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:32,956 Speaker 1: the seed of that character is me. It takes flight 435 00:25:32,996 --> 00:25:34,956 Speaker 1: in its own way, and Z becomes his own person. 436 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:41,556 Speaker 1: Even though it's it's you know, I recognize it as 437 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:44,116 Speaker 1: a starting point. I don't have that separation. I'm not 438 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:45,916 Speaker 1: able to step back and look at it and all right, 439 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:48,396 Speaker 1: what's the arc? What's the lesson? You know, Bizarma and 440 00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 1: I were making this film. You know, it's even hard 441 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 1: for us now to depress about it, and all the 442 00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 1: way through making it. If you asked us, really, what's 443 00:25:57,436 --> 00:26:00,476 Speaker 1: the film about? Really what does Z learn? We'd find 444 00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:03,236 Speaker 1: it hard to articulate it. We're so close to it 445 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:06,996 Speaker 1: that it's hard to kind of articulate. But perhaps that's 446 00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 1: why in a way, it's kind of give me one 447 00:26:08,956 --> 00:26:11,396 Speaker 1: of my profound lessons because it's it's it hasn't been 448 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:14,156 Speaker 1: an intellectual one, It's been an emotional one. And I 449 00:26:14,156 --> 00:26:17,076 Speaker 1: think it is something to do with self acceptance. I think, 450 00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 1: you know, Zed learning to love himself or accept himself, 451 00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:24,076 Speaker 1: if not love himself outside of a you know, a 452 00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:27,396 Speaker 1: crowd of screaming fans telling him he has worth, or 453 00:26:27,436 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 1: outside of his dad telling him that he you know, 454 00:26:30,716 --> 00:26:33,196 Speaker 1: isn't ashamed of him, or you know, any of that stuff. 455 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:38,916 Speaker 1: I think allowed me to also kind of go on 456 00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:45,396 Speaker 1: this journey and like, well, is are we enough? Am 457 00:26:45,396 --> 00:26:47,916 Speaker 1: I enough? Is Risen enough? Riz when he's not playing 458 00:26:47,916 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 1: a character Rism when he's not being interviewed Riz, when 459 00:26:49,956 --> 00:26:52,196 Speaker 1: he's not you know, dressed up in nice clothes and 460 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:54,676 Speaker 1: stood in a red carpet, It's like, are we enough? 461 00:26:55,396 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: And I think what Bissam and I I think hoped 462 00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:04,236 Speaker 1: to challenge ourselves to to to believe in making this film, 463 00:27:04,316 --> 00:27:07,636 Speaker 1: is that we are enough, you know, particularly as minorities 464 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:09,796 Speaker 1: or outside as you internalize the idea that you're not, 465 00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:13,836 Speaker 1: but we are, We're enough. And I feel like, yeah, 466 00:27:13,836 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 1: in a way, it brings it back to that mantra 467 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:17,756 Speaker 1: and addiction recovery. I am enough, I have enough, I 468 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:21,876 Speaker 1: do enough, and I feel like something in going on 469 00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:24,636 Speaker 1: this journey with the character Z allowed me to start 470 00:27:24,716 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 1: believing that, you know, we are enough. Yeah, it's interesting, 471 00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 1: you know, Z, the main character receives an autoimmune diagnosis, 472 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:37,796 Speaker 1: which ends his rapping career. No. I don't want to 473 00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:40,196 Speaker 1: alarm you, misterron War, but from the scams we've done, 474 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:45,716 Speaker 1: your muscles seem to be weakening. So what is that, like, say, 475 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:48,916 Speaker 1: think stroke. It could be a number of things. We 476 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:50,796 Speaker 1: need to run some more tests to determine what course 477 00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 1: of action is best. Okay, so I can stop buying 478 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:56,756 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, get those done. I got to 479 00:27:56,796 --> 00:28:00,236 Speaker 1: all that starts in less than a week. Let's just 480 00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 1: try a couple of things, shall we. And you've spoken 481 00:28:03,436 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: about how this is a metaphor for his own struggle 482 00:28:07,356 --> 00:28:11,676 Speaker 1: navigating his warring identities, right, this idea that you know, 483 00:28:11,716 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 1: your body can't even recognize itself, so it's attacking itself. 484 00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:16,116 Speaker 1: And can you just say a little bit more about 485 00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 1: this and how it might have in some way reflected 486 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:25,636 Speaker 1: your own experience straddling two cultures. Yeah, what's interesting because 487 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:31,076 Speaker 1: people who live in diaspora who live in places are 488 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:34,076 Speaker 1: different to where their ancestors have lived for many generations 489 00:28:34,356 --> 00:28:37,036 Speaker 1: have a much higher incidence of autoimmune conditions than the 490 00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:39,236 Speaker 1: general population. And Psalma and I when we were thinking 491 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 1: about how do we dramatize tangibly, you know, Z's lack 492 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: of self love or his identity crisis, or the way 493 00:28:46,556 --> 00:28:49,516 Speaker 1: he keeps pushing away the embrace of his culture, his 494 00:28:49,516 --> 00:28:53,836 Speaker 1: inheritance and where he's from. How can he wrestle him 495 00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:56,876 Speaker 1: to the floor. We came up this idea, this autoimmunity 496 00:28:56,876 --> 00:29:00,596 Speaker 1: and this inherited condition, and as we started researching it, 497 00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:04,636 Speaker 1: there's kind of you know three I'd say, you know, 498 00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:07,156 Speaker 1: there were three kind of theories that we found interesting, 499 00:29:07,196 --> 00:29:10,196 Speaker 1: of varying degrees of you know, signed if research or 500 00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:12,836 Speaker 1: data to back them up, but you know, artistically we 501 00:29:12,876 --> 00:29:15,836 Speaker 1: found and fascinating. One is I think called minority stress theory. 502 00:29:16,116 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 1: Was this idea that if you're an ethnic minority, you're 503 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:22,196 Speaker 1: implicitly and explicitly told you're not welcome, so you feel threatened. 504 00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:24,236 Speaker 1: Your immune system is in a state of hyper vigilance, 505 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:27,356 Speaker 1: so it's an overdrive. It can't switch off. There's another 506 00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:29,996 Speaker 1: theory which is that just that you know about climate 507 00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 1: and diet. And this third theory I came across this 508 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 1: idea that you know, it's it's an identity crisis played 509 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:38,316 Speaker 1: out on a molecular level. The body doesn't recognize itself, 510 00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:41,516 Speaker 1: so it's rejecting itself. It's almost a lack of self love. 511 00:29:41,556 --> 00:29:46,916 Speaker 1: It's internalizing this sense of being an outsider until it 512 00:29:46,956 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: manifests a kind of self hate. And so we thought 513 00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:54,276 Speaker 1: that that was a very apt metaphor, but also something 514 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 1: that you know, I don't know true to experience of 515 00:29:58,356 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 1: a lot of people who've you know, or outsiders racially 516 00:30:02,716 --> 00:30:07,516 Speaker 1: or otherwise. Yeah, I so resonate with that. You've taken 517 00:30:07,516 --> 00:30:13,156 Speaker 1: on these really ambitious, heavy roles and I can't imagine 518 00:30:13,156 --> 00:30:15,876 Speaker 1: it's all peaches and cream where you you know, you're 519 00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:19,276 Speaker 1: like immediately enlightened and you see all these insights, right, 520 00:30:19,276 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 1: I imagine it's a it's a dirty, challenging, potentially well 521 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 1: being harming exercise along the way, And for many people 522 00:30:28,196 --> 00:30:30,956 Speaker 1: who are navigating a change, they have to do that 523 00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:34,076 Speaker 1: hard work right along the way, and it's so uncomfortable. 524 00:30:34,556 --> 00:30:37,676 Speaker 1: It's so challenging to put in that effort to either 525 00:30:37,716 --> 00:30:39,876 Speaker 1: figure oneself out or to navigate a hard change. And 526 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:43,276 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what advice you'd have for listeners who are, 527 00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:45,116 Speaker 1: you know, not acting these roles, but are in a 528 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:49,556 Speaker 1: similar kind of challenging circumstance. I keep thinking of this 529 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:54,796 Speaker 1: real poem, this idea, this is line in it? Does 530 00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,676 Speaker 1: it go to the limits of your longing? It's a 531 00:30:57,716 --> 00:31:00,356 Speaker 1: beautiful poem, and in it there is this line and 532 00:31:00,396 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 1: it just says, just keep going. No feeling is final, 533 00:31:07,596 --> 00:31:13,396 Speaker 1: and I just love it. I just think, yeah, I think, 534 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 1: so we can do, right, we keep going till we can't. 535 00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:18,996 Speaker 1: But when we can't go any further, just know that 536 00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:22,476 Speaker 1: there'll be people who that that keep going. You know, 537 00:31:22,916 --> 00:31:26,716 Speaker 1: Dodd and their journey on was only been made possible 538 00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 1: by you know, the footsteps you put down. So I 539 00:31:29,836 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 1: don't know, I just feel like I don't know. I 540 00:31:33,596 --> 00:31:35,356 Speaker 1: don't have any answers. I don't know if we ever 541 00:31:35,396 --> 00:31:37,676 Speaker 1: get to any but we just keep going, you know, 542 00:31:37,716 --> 00:32:01,956 Speaker 1: we just keep going. I'm assuming you've you've made this movie. 543 00:32:01,996 --> 00:32:04,876 Speaker 1: It's out that it's probably just the first chapter. Is 544 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:06,596 Speaker 1: that how you see it? So what you're saying is 545 00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:10,636 Speaker 1: seem cool. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I've just commissioned. 546 00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 1: I have no budget, but you know your license. Let's 547 00:32:14,156 --> 00:32:19,956 Speaker 1: do it. Hey, thanks for listening. Join me next week 548 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:23,076 Speaker 1: when I talk to Annie Duke, an internationally renowned poker 549 00:32:23,156 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 1: champion who's won more than four million dollars. Annie's also 550 00:32:27,036 --> 00:32:30,156 Speaker 1: an expert on the science of quitting, something she thinks 551 00:32:30,196 --> 00:32:32,556 Speaker 1: we should do a lot more of. You know, one 552 00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:35,356 Speaker 1: of the reasons I think I'm so fascinated with quitting 553 00:32:35,436 --> 00:32:38,116 Speaker 1: is because I was a poker player, and what distinguishes 554 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:41,876 Speaker 1: great poker players from everybody else is that is mainly quitting. 555 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:44,436 Speaker 1: They quit a lot more so, they're just very good 556 00:32:44,476 --> 00:32:57,676 Speaker 1: at cutting their losses. A Slight Change of Plans is created, 557 00:32:57,756 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 1: written an executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The best 558 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:03,756 Speaker 1: part of creating this show is getting to collaborate with 559 00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:07,876 Speaker 1: my formidable Slight Change family. This includes Tyler Green, our 560 00:33:07,916 --> 00:33:12,036 Speaker 1: senior producer, Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Holiday, our 561 00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:16,316 Speaker 1: sound engineer, Emily Rostek our associate producer, and Neil Lavelle, 562 00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Louise Scara wrote our delightful theme song, 563 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:24,036 Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change 564 00:33:24,036 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 1: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big 565 00:33:26,916 --> 00:33:29,796 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone there, as well as Razza Hellem for 566 00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 1: his insights on this interview, and of course a very 567 00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:36,996 Speaker 1: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight 568 00:33:37,076 --> 00:33:40,356 Speaker 1: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker and 569 00:33:40,476 --> 00:33:43,316 Speaker 1: please remember to subscribe, share and rate the show to 570 00:33:43,356 --> 00:33:45,476 Speaker 1: help get the word out. See you next week.