1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. We're doing some vaults this week as 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: we are on a little bit of a summer break, 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: so we want to give you the dream Fall into 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: the Dark series. This is going to be part one 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: and it originally published six fifteen, twenty twenty three. Enjoy. 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: If dreaming really were a kind of truce, as people claim, 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: a sheer repose of mind, why then, if you should 9 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 2: waken up abruptly, do you feel that something has been 10 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: stolen from you? Why should it be so sad the 11 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: early morning? It robs us of an inconceivable gift, so 12 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: intimate it is only knowable in a trance which the 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: night Watch guilds with dreams, dreams that might very well 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: be reflections, fragments from the treasure house of darkness, from 15 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: the timeless sphere, that it does not have a name, 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 2: and that the day distorts in its mirrors. Who will 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,639 Speaker 2: you be tonight in your dream Fall into the Dark? 18 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 2: On the other side of the wall. 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 20 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 21 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: is Robert. 22 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 4: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 2: That was, of course a dream by Jorge Luis Borges, 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: an author that we cite and refer to with some 25 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 2: degree of regularity on the show, because he was fascinated 26 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 2: with many of the things we're fascinated with on Stuff 27 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind, Mirrors, dreams, strange creatures, stabbings sometimes 28 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: that sort of thing. And in this episode we're going 29 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: to be discussing the dream world a bit more. This 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: is a topic that we also come back to with 31 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: some regularity on Stuff to Blow Your Mind, and for 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: good reason, right because there is a universality to dreaming, 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: and it constitutes an altered and highly subjective mental state 34 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: that runs the gamut from the mundane and the frankly 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: boring to the other worldly, from the specific to the ineffable, 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: and from the comforting to the just absolutely terrifying. It's 37 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 2: at once entirely shut off from the waking world and 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: yet can greatly impact it. And we've spent a considerable 39 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: portion of our conscious history as a species trying to 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: make sense of it and to figure out to what 41 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: extent these two worlds are connected or to what extent 42 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: they're disconnected, and the enigma in many respects still remains now. 43 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: Rob. 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 4: When you first told me you wanted to talk about this, 45 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 4: it was in the context of looking at a specific 46 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 4: mythical monster, I believe one from Japan, right, Yeah. 47 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: That was kind of I guess the White Rabbit that 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: I followed into all of this because it's an interesting 49 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: monster and it ties in with so of practices and 50 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: superstitions concerning the manipulation of dream on our side in 51 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: the Waking world, and I think we are going to 52 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: get back to that monster, perhaps in a forthcoming episode. 53 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: But as I was reading about this creature from Japanese tradition, 54 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: I started reading more about how some of these ideas 55 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 2: extended back through Chinese tradition as well, and so I thought, well, 56 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: I should maybe go a little broader and looking at 57 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,839 Speaker 2: the larger slice of Sino Japanese thought concerning dreams, and 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: I ended up picking up this really fascinating book titled 59 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: The Dreaming Mind and the End of the Ming World 60 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: by Lynn A. Struve, published in twenty nineteen by the 61 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: University of Hawaii Press. It's an incredible book, and I 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 2: was particularly taken by Struve's discussion early on about the 63 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: mystique of dreams in various global cultures across time, with 64 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: particular times and places in which the focus of intellectual 65 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: and or theologic sections of the populace are just particularly 66 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: focused on the dream world and what is going on 67 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: in dreams, and what we should draw from dreams, and 68 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: how much of our waking effort and time and thought 69 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: should be dedicated to dreams. 70 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 4: So you mentioned in the title of the book, it 71 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 4: makes reference to the end of the Ming world. She 72 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 4: seems to draw attention to the especially the late Ming 73 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 4: period in China, as a time when there was a 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 4: lot of writing produced about dreams and focus on the 75 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: meaning of dreams, compared to maybe the same region of 76 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 4: the world in earlier or later times. 77 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, And this is something I had never really 78 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: thought about before, because obviously, to some degree, it's like 79 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: everyone is fascinated with dreams. If nothing else, you're going 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: to be interested in your own dreams, and then any 81 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: given culture is going to have some degree of ideas 82 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: about what they mean or what they don't mean, and 83 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: then you know, there's going to be sort of a 84 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 2: global trend towards you know, modernization and rational interpretation of dreams. 85 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: But I'd never really thought about this idea that there 86 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: are going to be times and places where if you 87 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 2: are looking at I don't know, some sort of a 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: mechanism that was giving you the readings. All right, this 89 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: is what dream fascination is looking like. Oh we have 90 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 2: a spike. Why is it spiking it certain? Or does 91 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 2: it seem to spike at certain points? And so Struve 92 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: is making a point largely for this period of time 93 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: at the end of the Ming dynasty and it's decline, 94 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: as it's about to fall an end and another dynasty 95 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: is about to come to power. But this argument that 96 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: there are some other places as well where all the 97 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 2: elements are just in proper place to sort of push 98 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: people inward, and particularly to push intellectuals of the day inward, 99 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 2: those who have more time to devote to these matters, 100 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: and then also you know, the ability to write about 101 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: them and have their words passed on to subsequent generations. 102 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: So in the book she naturally discusses the subjective nature 103 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 2: of dreams, their wide variety, and how the quote deficit 104 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,039 Speaker 2: of logic and rationality unquote in dreams has inspired both 105 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: suspicion and celebration, which is this duality will come back 106 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: to several times in this episode. Also key to all 107 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: of this, of course, is that dreams arise unbidden. Certainly 108 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 2: we have no power over what other people may dream, 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: but generally we lack control over what our own dreams 110 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 2: are going to consist of. And this can prove again 111 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 2: a source of great inspiration, even divine inspiration. You know, 112 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: look what the dream world has given to me, Look 113 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: what the powers beyond the dreams have given me. But 114 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: in some cases and some worldviews, it may also be 115 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: seen as threatening or truly terrifying, especially within worldviews where 116 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 2: rigorous control of thought, desire, and emotion are key. You know, 117 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: it's like, perhaps you're a person and in your religious 118 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: devotion you spend a lot of time denying yourself say 119 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: lustful thoughts, and then you enter into the dream world, 120 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 2: and there are no guarantees that those lustful thoughts will 121 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: not arise there and take on forms that may seem 122 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: at odds with what you're trying to do with your 123 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 2: waking self. 124 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 4: Yes, and of course that can be threatening and unsettling 125 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 4: to people. But coming back to the first half of 126 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,119 Speaker 4: what you said about dreams being an inspiration and having 127 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 4: a kind of power or authority. I think that is 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 4: linked to the fact about them seeming to be unbidden, 129 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 4: the fact that they seem to come from somewhere other 130 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 4: than your own thoughts. I mean, you could say that, 131 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 4: we'll wait, where do your waking thoughts really come from? Those, 132 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 4: if you examined them more closely, might come to seem 133 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 4: as unbidden as dreams. But at least we have a 134 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 4: sense more like our thoughts in our waking state are 135 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 4: more under our control, and our thoughts in the dream 136 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 4: world are not, And because they feel like they're not, 137 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 4: they're less under our control than thoughts in the way state. 138 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 4: They can take on a kind of third party authority. 139 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 4: So it's like you can report the contents of your dreams, 140 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 4: or even just contemplate the contents of your dreams, without 141 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: the sort of self doubt and anxiety that you might 142 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 4: have about if you were just, say, like, offering your 143 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: personal opinion about something. When it's a dream, it's like 144 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 4: you're reporting something you read in another source. It has 145 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 4: a kind of third party authority. And often because dreams 146 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 4: are ascribed to gods or literal powerful figures or ancestors 147 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 4: or other you know, beings that have senses and information 148 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 4: and powers beyond what we have in waking life. The 149 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 4: contents of dreams can be interpreted to have power and 150 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: authority over other people like you, I can tell you 151 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 4: my dreams, and that might have a message that you 152 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: think you should pay heed to, because I'm not just 153 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 4: saying my opinion. I'm reporting what was revealed to me 154 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 4: in a dream. 155 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's interesting to sort of self analy over this, 156 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: Like if either of us were to tell our spouses 157 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: to report in the morning, Hey, I had a dream 158 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: in which I was wearing this green suit. It's weird. 159 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: I don't own a green suit, and then you kept 160 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: reporting this same dream over and over again, Like how 161 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: would they interpret it? How would you interpret it? Like 162 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: at some point would you just be taking it apart, 163 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: trying to think of what does green mean to me? 164 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: And like where is this coming from? Or they might think, well, 165 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: maybe my spouse really needs a green suit. Maybe that's 166 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: what the root of this is, like deep down they 167 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 2: desire it. Like there's so many ways to sort of 168 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: tease it apart and try and make sense of it 169 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: when ultimately, like the signal itself is irrational. 170 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 4: Of course, it gets even more complicated when the dream 171 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 4: is interpreted to include an exhortation or some kind of 172 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 4: guide to action, because consider the contrast between a couple 173 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: of other things. What if, on one hand, I just 174 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 4: say to my family, I think I'm going to shoplift 175 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 4: a green suit out of the clothing store, and I 176 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 4: just present that as my idea. It seemed like a 177 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 4: good idea to me. Versus I say, I have a 178 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 4: dream in which I take a green suit out of 179 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: the clothing store without paying for it, and I keep 180 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 4: having this dream. Well there, it kind of seems like, look, 181 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 4: it's not It wasn't my idea. You know, it came 182 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 4: to me from the dream. So it's like somebody else 183 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 4: is telling me I need to do it. 184 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. This idea that there's something about the dream that 185 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: does not seem to fully originate in ourselves. This is 186 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: a This is a theme that we'll return to again 187 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 2: and again here, and something that various interpreters of dreams 188 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: and sort of dream theorists over time have latched onto. Now, 189 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: coming back to Lynn A. Struve's book, she says that 190 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: while in some rare cases, dreams have allegedly and allegedly 191 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: is important because the nature of other people's dreams is 192 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: always alleged, and even our own accounts of dreams that's 193 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: subject to interpretation, remembrance and reporting and so forth. In 194 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: some cases you have dreams of allegedly directly informed history, 195 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 2: but otherwise, like what does it matter that people are 196 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: having dreams and reporting them and focusing in on them. 197 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 2: There's sort of like two major areas that she looks 198 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: out at here. One, as we'll explore, is like what 199 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: happens when you're fascination with dreams kind of like bubbles 200 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 2: over into making decisions about the waking world. But the 201 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: other one that she touches on has to do with 202 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: ultimately with like how a given society viewed consciousness, how 203 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: a society views its dreams, Especially in highly intellectual and 204 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: authoritative cultures. You know, you can look to the surviving 205 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: writings on dreams dream journals, and they can ultimately reveal 206 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 2: much about that culture and the individuals doing the dreaming 207 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: and the writing, as well as the inner workings of 208 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 2: the mind. She writes, I submit that dream writing can 209 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: indirectly contribute to a history of consciousness, not in the 210 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 2: sense of what people were conscious awe of over time, 211 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: such as class identity, but in the sense of what 212 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: people thought consciousness was and how they experienced it. Delving 213 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: into this can illuminate how they felt and understood themselves existentially, 214 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: which underlay other actions and endeavors. Consciousness at its most 215 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: primal is a sense of being an observant entity, and 216 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 2: it builds and modifies selfhood by the agency of narrating 217 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: what is observed. Attempts to narrate that most ineffable kind 218 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: of observation of what occurs to us in dreams expose 219 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: this process at the most elemental level that is accessible 220 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: to others and therefore on which self interacts with society. 221 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: So dream talk can give us valuable information on how 222 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: people probed awareness itself, under what circumstances they were moved 223 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: to do so, and how their evolving selves negotiated narratologically 224 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 2: with their sociocultural milieu. 225 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 4: Okay, this is interesting. So Struve is making the argument 226 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 4: that even if you don't have people, say, writing philosophical 227 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 4: treatises on what they believe the nature of consciousness to be, 228 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 4: you can infer a lot of things about what certain people, 229 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: at certain times thought believe the nature of consciousness to be. 230 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: By reading their reports about dreams and how they talked 231 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: about dreams, because in a sense, dreams are a dreams 232 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 4: are relating an experience of consciousness separated from action and 233 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 4: waking life. 234 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 2: Right right, Yeah, it provides this this sort of distance 235 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: on inner thought process. That's and again I never really 236 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 2: really thought about this either. It's easy to sort of 237 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: think of of accounts of other people's dreams as either 238 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 2: you know, interesting or boring, or interesting only to them, 239 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: or perhaps interesting in terms of like exactly how it 240 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: is interpreted based on everything else and all that's valid, 241 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: but this added level of like, yeah, to some degree, 242 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: these are accounts of people thinking about their own consciousnes. Now. 243 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 2: In this book, Struve ultimately dives into the particularities of 244 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: Late Ming Dynasty China during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, 245 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: but she also highlights other times in places that seem 246 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: particularly focused on the power of dream So, you know, 247 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: it's all interesting, I think, coming from our current place 248 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: in the consideration of dreams, sort of the tail end 249 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: of what she classifies as an accelerating Western decline in 250 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: the belief of prophetic and oracular dreams. And she argues 251 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: that this decline has been accelerating, at least among the 252 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: educated since the seventeenth century. I mean, we're still obsessed 253 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: with our dreams. We still talk about our dreams, right. 254 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: They still have the power to fascinate us, terrifies and 255 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: all that, but we're generally more inclined it seems to 256 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: me anyway, to dismiss them as nonsense or the scrambled 257 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: remnants of waking experience, thoughts and feelings. I remember David 258 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: Eagleman when I initially interviewed him the interview before last, 259 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: he said that he mentioned the he always thought of 260 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 2: it as sticking his head in the night blender, which 261 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 2: I thought was rather apt. You know, this idea that yeah, 262 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: this is what you this is what you get. You know, 263 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: these are just the mental leavings from the previous day, 264 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: and you can pick through them. You can, you know, 265 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 2: maybe you'll find something useful that is, you know, you know, 266 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 2: provide some inner reflection. But ultimately the thing itself has 267 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: no meaning. It is like a waste product that is 268 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: extruded from the mind. 269 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: Well. 270 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 4: Yeah. Eagleman's particular theory about the adaptive function of dreaming 271 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 4: was that it is a defensive action of the visual 272 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 4: center of the brain to prevent takeover of that tissue 273 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 4: in the brain by other senses during the dark period 274 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 4: and the night, so that when you know it's nighttime 275 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 4: and you have your eyes closed so you're not using 276 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 4: the visual centers of your brain, those brain cells don't 277 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 4: start to get recruited too much by other functions of 278 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: the brain because our brains are very plastic. And part 279 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: of the evidence he produced for that was that there 280 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 4: seems to be across the human life span and across 281 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 4: different animals, there appears to be a negative correlation between 282 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 4: the plasticity of brain tissue and how much dreaming you do. 283 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was an interesting hypothesis that he came 284 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: to after initially seeing it as the night blender. But 285 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: you don't hear someone like David Eagleman talking about dreams 286 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: being the vehicle or the instrument through which God is 287 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: speaking to him or to us, or to random people. 288 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: I mean, you will find it in the modern world, 289 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: but for the most part, we don't really lean into 290 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: that on the whole. 291 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I guess technically, I want to say those 292 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 4: are two separate scientific questions. One would be what is 293 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 4: the adaptive function of dreaming in the first place, Like 294 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 4: why do we dream? And I think that's the main 295 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 4: question that Eagleman was answering when we talked to him 296 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 4: about that. The purpose of dreaming is to prevent the 297 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 4: nighttime takeover a visual tissue by other functions. But there's 298 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 4: a totally separate question, which is what determines the actual 299 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 4: contents of dreams. And you could have a you know, 300 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 4: in a way that's kind of unrelated to the other theory. 301 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 4: You could just say, well that you know, the fact 302 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 4: that we need to prevent the takeover of that brain 303 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 4: tissue means you've got to have something going on in there. 304 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 4: What's going on in there? What kinds of stuff you 305 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 4: see and imagine in a dream? I mean, it could 306 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 4: be anything. So why do we see the things we see? 307 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 4: And that's an interesting psychological question that seems somewhat separate. 308 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, certainly 309 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 2: you could have a situation where if the Eagleman's hypothesis 310 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: was correct, that you could still have God speaking through 311 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: the content of the dreams, because it's like the brain 312 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: just needs something to keep the to keep things visually 313 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: powered up, but it doesn't particularly care what is in there, 314 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 2: and then yeah, you could have God or God's slipping 315 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: a message in to the stuff. In the same way 316 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 2: you might be able to cut up open the entrails 317 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: of an animal and supposedly determine the future based on 318 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: what they contain. 319 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: Ah. 320 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 4: Yes, so it's technically there's no conflict between you being 321 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 4: able to read the future in the in the guts 322 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 4: of a chicken and the fact that the guts of 323 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 4: a chicken are used for digestion by the chicken. 324 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 2: Yes, all right. Coming back to these different periods in 325 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: times where there's been an uptick in interest in the 326 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: contents of dreams and this idea that there's something meaningful 327 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 2: there to really latch onto. One of the periods that 328 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 2: Struve touches on is the Romantic period in Europe, particularly 329 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: late eighteenth through early nineteenth centuries. Truve writes that the 330 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 2: quote felt limitations of an Enlightenment rationalism and mechanism, especially 331 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 2: as a concerned the human body and the inner workings 332 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: of the mind, led to a kind of increased interest 333 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 2: in the non rational and the mysteries of the self 334 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: consciousness and the unconscious mind. She writes, quote with growing 335 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: interest in dreaming as a medium through which to link 336 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 2: these compulsions. Dreams came to feature prominently in natural philosophy, 337 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: medical thought, the budding field of anthropology, art in art theory, 338 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: personal notes, and especially creative writing and literary criticism. This 339 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 2: occurred as intellectuals responded with elan and or anxiety, hope 340 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 2: or dismay to the epical French Revolution, the Napoleonic Wars, 341 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: rising nationalisms, and socio environmental changes attendant on the Early 342 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: Industrial Revolution. 343 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 4: If I understand Struve's argument correctly, this seems to fit 344 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 4: with the pattern of the late Ming period in that 345 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 4: I think she understands an increased focus on dreaming among 346 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 4: the people producing writing as a common feature of periods 347 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 4: where there is a lot of where there is a 348 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 4: lot of strife and rapid change. 349 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think that's one 350 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 2: of the main reasons that the Romantic period here is 351 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: such a nice parallel exam Now, in bringing up Romanticism, 352 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: the mind instantly goes to particular authors of that period, 353 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: say Samuel Taylor Cooleridge, who lived seventeen seventy two through 354 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: eighteen thirty four, whose work often explored dreams, as well 355 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: as those visions brought about through the use of opium. 356 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: So I wanted to look at like another text that 357 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: dealt with this topic, and I ran across a very 358 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: interesting book from nineteen ninety eight titled Coolridge on Dreaming 359 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: by Jennifer Ford, and it explores this naturally in the 360 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: specifics of the poet's work, but also in the larger 361 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: context of eighteenth and nineteenth century dream fascination in the West. 362 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 2: You see examples of this in the work of other 363 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 2: notable Romantic authors as well, like Lord Byron and Thomas 364 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 2: de Quincy, who of Cose, of course, also famously imputed opium. 365 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 2: Ford writes that there was no consensus concerning the nature 366 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: of dreaming at the time during the Romantic Romantic period, 367 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 2: with opinions are really centering on the big three interpretations. 368 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: So one potentially vine visions you know, could be could 369 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 2: be God sneaking in a voice or a message there 370 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: or some you know, supernatural entity with our interests at heart. 371 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: I guess you could also look at that is too, 372 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: a font of creativity and inspiration, a natural place for 373 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,439 Speaker 2: the poets in the writer's mind to go, in the 374 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 2: artist's mind or three dreams as residue or byproduct, which is, 375 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 2: you know what, We've been discussing this idea that maybe 376 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: dreams are nothing but just sort of the reassembled contents 377 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: of things we thought about or observed, et cetera during 378 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 2: the course of our day. Now, Coolridge was much inspired 379 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: by the writings of Antiquity on the matter, considering the 380 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: idea of prophetic dreaming especially, but he also consumed contemporary 381 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: writings that included both serious attempts to understand dreaming from 382 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 2: the vantage point of of current medicine and physiology, as 383 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 2: well as magical and mystical strains of thought. Now this 384 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: is kind of an aside here, but one of the 385 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,120 Speaker 2: things that Ford points out is that one of the 386 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: off is that he would have, of course read from Antiquity, 387 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: would be Homer, and who in the Odyssey describes the 388 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: two gates from which dreams may arise quote four. Two 389 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: are the gates of shadowy dreams, and one is fashioned 390 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: of horn, and one of ivory. Those dreams that pass 391 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: through the gate of saun ivory deceive men, bringing words 392 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 2: that find no fulfillment. But those that come forth through 393 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: the gait of polished horn bring true issues to pass 394 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: when any mortal sees them. 395 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: Well in a way that belief is not very helpful. 396 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 4: So it's like some dreams could contain prophetic content and 397 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 4: other dreams are there to deceive and misguide you, but 398 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 4: you can't you can't know which or which. 399 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of the ideas 400 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: presented by the gomork and the Never Ending Story, you know, 401 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 2: the idea of this link bit and creative creativity and 402 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 2: deception between dream and creations of imagination and lies. And 403 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 2: I guess this get touches on like one of the 404 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 2: real problems of value you wing the content of dreams 405 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 2: is that like, sometimes dreams are just stupid. I mean, 406 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: there are gonna be maybe some there's some versions of 407 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: it where you're like, okay, there's always something there might 408 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 2: be cryptic, but there's something there that might be your 409 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 2: viewpoint regarding dreams. But at times you're gonna have an 410 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: uphill battle because you're gonna have that dumb dream where 411 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: you're what like in the the the words of Mitch Hedberg, 412 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 2: you know, had a joke about a dream in which 413 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: he had to build a go kart with his old 414 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: boss or something like that. You know you're gonna have 415 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: dreams that you're really gonna have to have to try 416 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: hard to find some sort of prophetic interpretation or meaningful 417 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: interpretation of what's there. So easier to say, well, you know, 418 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: sometimes they come through this gate and they mean something. 419 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 2: Sometimes they come through the other gate and it's just 420 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: complete crap. Now Ford has a section here where she 421 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 2: briefly goes through mentioning. You know what other writers of 422 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: antiquity had to say about it, like Hippocrates and much 423 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: later Gallan, both agreed that dreams mattered and they were 424 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 2: connected to health. They also wrote that Galen and the 425 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 2: Roade that they could contain divine messages of healing contained 426 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: in dream symbols and so forth. But for both of 427 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: these individuals, however, food and digestion were deeply linked with dreaming. 428 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: Hmmm, yeah, you might be an undigested bit of. 429 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: Beef for cheese exactly. Yeah, it's exactly the example I 430 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 2: thought of as well from a Christmas carol. Now, Plato, Aristotle, 431 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 2: and Cicero, for the most part, and with some notable exceptions, 432 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 2: argue that dreams were not prophetic. Apparently, Cicero kind of 433 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 2: was wishy washy on this. Aristotle, however, was pretty firm 434 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 2: on the matter, Ford writes, quote, he explained sleep as 435 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: the rising to the head of vapors from digestive processes. 436 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 2: Dreams could be explained by their relation to the material 437 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 2: world and to waking thoughts, and not as a result 438 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 2: of prophetic messages from gods totally in the Potato camp. 439 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 4: Here, there's more of gravy than grave about you. 440 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: That's Aristotle, yeah, now, But still idea of prophetic dreaming 441 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: cast a long shadow across Western history. And of course, 442 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: you know, outside of what's going on in the like 443 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: intellectual realms of it in given culture, obviously you have 444 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: kind of deeply rooted folk traditions and so forth as well, 445 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: which you know, none of the Don't Think's authors particularly 446 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 2: get into that as much. But with the Christian tradition, 447 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: Ford points out, there was always a lot of back 448 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 2: and forth on the matter, because the Bible itself seemed 449 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 2: to be of two minds on prophetic dreaming, sometimes championing 450 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: the prophetic power of dreams and other times denouncing it, 451 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: in fact casting out the dream observers with the soothsayers 452 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 2: and the wizards. In the Book of Deuteronomy. 453 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 4: Well, I feel like this, this is a repeating pattern, 454 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 4: and I think this will come up again in some 455 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: stuff we'll we'll talk about later, either in this episode 456 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 4: or in the next one in the series. But there's 457 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 4: always sort of a tension in the practice, in the 458 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 4: reception of the practice of receiving revelations, whether that's through 459 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 4: divination or whether that's visions and dreams and so forth, 460 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 4: because many religions will have that type of content in 461 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: a sanctioned way, like maybe some of its orthodoxy or 462 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 4: its history, its stories, its current priesthood will practice things 463 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 4: that involve some methods of knowledge of that form, and 464 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 4: that will be the sanctioned version. But then there is 465 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 4: sort of an unsanctioned version that is not promoting orthodoxy 466 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 4: or is subverting the power of the priesthood or whatever, 467 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 4: and well, you don't want to allow that stuff. So 468 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 4: it's kind of like, you know, well, there were some 469 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 4: there were some visions and dreams that were legitimate, and 470 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 4: that's part of what we believe now. But if somebody 471 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 4: is telling you new information from visions and dreams, then 472 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 4: you've got to be careful about that. 473 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not canon. But anyway, during the time of 474 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: the Romantics. A lot of this increased interest and confusion 475 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: about dreaming had to do Ford stresses with quote the 476 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: perceived unsatisfactory factory, mechanical and associationistic explanations of dreams offered 477 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:17,479 Speaker 2: by John Locke, David Hartley, George Berkeley, and others. Interest 478 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: in the forces and features of psychic life began to increase, 479 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 2: and a concept of the unconscious mind began to emerge. 480 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: So it seems like a lot of these unsatisfactory ideas 481 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: involved digestion. So I guess, you know, ultimately it's not 482 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: very romantic to for someone to say, look that dream 483 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 2: you had. I know it was really inspiring, but it 484 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: was essentially like you passing gas in the night. You 485 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 2: shouldn't give it a lot of attention unless it is, 486 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: you know, interfering with your ability to sleep. But it 487 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: also comes back to what you said earlier about like 488 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: a time of change, a time of like changing ideas 489 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: and emerging ideas, and sometimes this kind of feeling of like, well, no, 490 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: that that can't be right. That's not how I feel 491 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: about it. That's not what these voices from the asked 492 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: have necessarily agreed with. Now Coolidge himself wrote that he 493 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: thought much of these discussions were too dismissive of the personal, psychological, 494 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 2: mysterious nature of dreams, as well as their overall value 495 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 2: to the dreamer. But he also read the writings of 496 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 2: Scottish metaphysical rationalist Andrew Baxter and was particularly taken by 497 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: his arguments that dreams did not originate in one's own soul, 498 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: but were brought on by external beings. So dream spirits 499 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: were to blame, because otherwise, how could we dream something 500 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: that we had never witnessed or thought or felt in 501 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 2: the waking world. How could we meet someone in dreams 502 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: that we had never met in reality. 503 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: This seems like an odd thing for Coleridge to be 504 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 4: enticed by, because, like, he was a writer, so you'd 505 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 4: think he'd be more familiar with the concept of creative imagination. 506 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 4: And how like, yes, a character can start talking back 507 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 4: to you in your mind and you haven't met them. 508 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 4: You made them up. This is part of the creative process. 509 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 2: I yeah, it's a good point. I kind of interpreted 510 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 2: those being like again to her point, like recoiling a 511 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: little bit from this. You know what the rational world 512 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 2: is saying about dreams? You know that it's it is potato. 513 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, you know, wanting this 514 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: idea that's more in keeping with the muses, that dreams 515 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: are overpowering, that they that they are are coming to 516 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 2: us and giving us something, giving us a creative gift 517 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 2: that we might run with. And apparently this was this 518 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: is the kind of thing that Baxter was talking about. 519 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: You know, the idea that the dreamer is visited during 520 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 2: sleep and that quote dreaming may degenerate into possession. 521 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 4: Oh okay, So you could imagine it being attractive for 522 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 4: Coleridge and other romantic writers to think like this in 523 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 4: the same way it might have been attractive for writers 524 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 4: who literally believed in the muses as entities, because it 525 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 4: gives that same kind of third party authority to what 526 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 4: you're writing that I was talking about with dreams earlier, 527 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 4: Like you know, if oh I didn't just make this up, 528 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 4: this was given to me by a divine being. 529 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it reminds me a bit of some 530 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 2: of our past discussions about the bicameral mind hypothesis. You know, 531 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: it's sort of like, Okay, there's the idea that a 532 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 2: god might speak to you, but here's this other idea 533 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: that kind of gets you to a similar place, but 534 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: through a different, different strain of more rational thinking. Though 535 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 2: I guess at the end of the day you're still 536 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 2: talking about some sort of entity outside of your own 537 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: being in the case of Baxter's writing. So I don't know, 538 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 2: but I guess I tend to sort of interpret it 539 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: here as being like you know, it's the irrational in 540 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: the rational insight any given person's mind, and certainly you're 541 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: able to hold on to and be attracted to conflicting ideas, 542 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: but still from that idea, it's a short walk to 543 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: pre existing concepts of dreams brought on by demons and 544 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: the like. Believe Baxter wrote about the incubus and the 545 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: succubists a bit at least the general concepts. The link 546 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: is made between nightmare and madness, and Ford makes special 547 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: mention of this quote. The notion of dreams as possessing 548 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: the dreamer provides a rich source of anxiety and thoughtful 549 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 2: deliberation for Coleridge and many others who ventured into the 550 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: often hostile territory of the dream. Dreams were involuntary events 551 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: and could not be controlled. Often, the dream itself was 552 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: perceived as the controlling force. 553 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know. 554 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: In my case, oftentimes I will sort of think, you know, 555 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: vaguely about like there being something that is programming my dreams, 556 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: Like there's a little person in my head that makes 557 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: a lot of programming choices, like it's a TV channel 558 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: and often makes just illogical programming choices, like like I'll 559 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 2: look at it and'll be like, well, think of all 560 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 2: the things that I did yesterday, that I read about, 561 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 2: or experienced or watched on television, and this is the 562 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: dream you gave me. This was the programming that was 563 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: selected for my night's entertainment. 564 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 4: We're rerunning transfers five, five times in a row. 565 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: I would love transfer five dreams, but no, it's generally 566 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: a lot more boring. It's like, I don't think you 567 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: know the target audience here, But anyway, one sees this 568 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: idea of dreams possessing the dreamer and the works of 569 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: Coleridge to Quincy, Wordsworth and others. But Coleridge again also 570 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: kept abreast of modern medical writings as we as the 571 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 2: writings of people like the physician Erasmus Darwin who's stress 572 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: quote the terror of involuntary thoughts, sleep and dream as 573 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: a sub human state in which we cannot fully exert 574 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: our will. So, you know, I guess this seems to 575 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: be just a common theme that everyone who's thinking about 576 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: dreams has to come up against. Is that there we 577 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: can't fully control it. And what does that lack of 578 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: control mean? 579 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 4: Well, again, when I really think about it, the question 580 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 4: it raises is what does it mean when we do 581 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 4: feel like we're in control of our thoughts? What causes 582 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 4: that sensation? Because again, like I feel like the closer 583 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,959 Speaker 4: you look at the moment to moment functioning of your 584 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 4: waking mind, the more mysterious the origin of your thoughts becomes, 585 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: and it can start to feel like a dream. We're like, 586 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 4: wait a minute, why did I just think about that? 587 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 4: Did I? Did I really have control of thinking about that? 588 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 4: What made me say transfers five? Where did that come from? 589 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: Yeah? 590 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: Though I know what you mean, though, I guess at times, 591 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: so there are waking thoughts, and you know, if we 592 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 2: have a really active, you know, default mode network, we 593 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 2: can kind of self analyze and we'd be like, oh, well, 594 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 2: this is why my mind went here, and then you know, 595 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: we can sort of try and trace it. But dreams 596 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: often are more difficult to interpret along those lines like 597 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: they they're less easy to interrogate. 598 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 4: Well, I guess sort of what I'm getting at is 599 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 4: that it seems like maybe the difference is that in 600 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: dreams we have less of the illusion of control over 601 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 4: the direction of our own thoughts that we feel we 602 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 4: have during waking states. 603 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so. You can see a number of these 604 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: ideas reflected in a poem by the romantic author Lord Byron. 605 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: This is a This is a piece at Ford also 606 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 2: references in the book, but I thought it might be 607 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: nice to read just a portion of it here. Again, 608 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 2: this is from Lord Byron's The Dream. Joe, do you 609 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 2: do the honors? Since I read the Borets at the beginning? 610 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 4: Oh sure, let's see. So this is an excerpt from 611 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 4: the Dream. They pass like spirits of the past, They 612 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 4: speak like sybols of the future. They have power, the 613 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 4: tyranny of pleasure and of pain. They make us what 614 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 4: we were, not what they will, and shake us with 615 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 4: the vision that's gone by, the dread of vanished shadows? 616 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 4: Are they so? Is not the past all shadow? What 617 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 4: are they? Creations of the mind? 618 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 2: All right, Well, on that note, we're going to go 619 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: ahead and close out this episode, but we'll be back 620 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: in part two and we'll continue to discuss this idea 621 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 2: of the mystique of dreaming these different places where in 622 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: time where there seems to have been a surge and 623 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: interest in the power of dreams and the like the 624 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: practicality even of dreams. So we'll look at a few 625 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: other different cultures, including the Ming dynasty example that Struve 626 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 2: is directly mentioning, and eventually we'll get to that monster. 627 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 2: I don't know that may be even further along. But 628 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: at the end, there's a monster at the end of 629 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: this book, is what I'm saying. 630 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 4: Will it steal my dreams? 631 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: It might? 632 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: It meant very well, might, or it might just help 633 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 2: you build ikea furniture for all night long? 634 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 4: Will it steal a green suit for me? 635 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 2: Ooh, one would hope, One would hope that monster has 636 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: connections all right. 637 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 4: Well. 638 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: In the meantime, if you want to write in about 639 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 2: your dreams, hey, We're always happy to hear them. Our 640 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 2: listener mail episodes published on Mondays, Core episodes on Tuesdays 641 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 2: and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short form monster 642 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 2: fact or artifact episode, and on Fridays we set aside 643 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a weird film 644 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. 645 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 4: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If 646 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 4: you would like to get in touch with us with 647 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 4: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 648 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 4: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 649 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 4: can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your Mind 650 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 4: dot com. 651 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 652 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 653 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.