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Speaker 1: Native Landpod is a production of iHeartRadio and partnership with

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Speaker 1: Recent Choice Media.

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Speaker 2: Well come, well.

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Speaker 3: Come, well come, well come, well come, Welcome.

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Speaker 2: Home, everybody.

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Speaker 3: This is Angela Raie, Andrew Gillim and Tiffany Cross. You

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Speaker 3: are tuned into this week's mini pod.

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Speaker 4: So.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember how this question came about in Miami.

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Speaker 3: I know it was in Miami, and somehow we started

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Speaker 3: talking about the shallow end and the deep, and I

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Speaker 3: think Andrew said that it was safer in the shallow.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if that indeed is the case. And so.

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Speaker 3: I am hoping that we can discuss some of these

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Speaker 3: I have some questions that I that I want to ask, y'all.

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Speaker 3: I think the first thing is to talk about, like

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Speaker 3: what it is frowned upon for someone to be deemed

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Speaker 3: as shallow, right, Like if someone is like.

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Speaker 2: Oh, there's a shallow what is that? What does that mean?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 3: What does it mean for someone to be shallow? To you,

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Speaker 3: tiff what does it mean You're like, oh, this person

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Speaker 3: is shallow?

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Speaker 2: What does that mean? That everything is surfaced?

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Speaker 1: I guess like if you you can't even have a

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Speaker 1: philical sophal, yes, if you if you can be philosophical.

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Speaker 3: I think that Tiff might be shallow today.

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Speaker 1: They cannot have a philosophical discussion, Like they couldn't even participate.

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Speaker 2: That we cannot have a serious They're making me laugh.

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Speaker 4: You're.

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Speaker 2: Doing anything.

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Speaker 1: It's just like they can't have a philosophical discussion.

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Speaker 2: I'm not looking at you all and.

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Speaker 1: When you like, they're not engaged on anything beyond what

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Speaker 1: I would consider like bee even if we're talking about

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Speaker 1: like celebrity gossip, like it it's stays at you know.

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Speaker 2: Celebrity gossip.

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Speaker 1: If we're talking about rap lyrics, you know, like everything

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Speaker 1: is just kind of of who cares? But can I

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Speaker 1: say though, I have a friend who doesn't read any news.

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Speaker 1: All of her information comes from like Instagram. You know,

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Speaker 1: she is a mother, but she is like the embodiment

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Speaker 1: of love. And I think these two things are related

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Speaker 1: because I think it's easy to go through the day

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Speaker 1: and maybe through life being joyful when you're oblivious to

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Speaker 1: all the misery happening. And I've read this in a

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Speaker 1: book somewhere, and they said that humanity does not function

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Speaker 1: on human kindness. It actually functions on human callousness. Because

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Speaker 1: if any of us ever truly confronted the monstrosities that

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Speaker 1: happen every day as human beings, we would not be

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Speaker 1: able to function. So there is some safety perhaps in

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Speaker 1: staying in the shallow.

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Speaker 3: But even your friend who reads who doesn't read papers,

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Speaker 3: doesn't necessarily mean that she's shallow.

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Speaker 2: Are we talking about substantively.

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Speaker 3: Shallow, Like, yeah, she's joyful, intimactually shallow, or we say,

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Speaker 3: are we saying that there is there more than one

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Speaker 3: way to be shallow?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think people who find it difficult to choose

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Speaker 4: not to or don't have the ability to see or

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Speaker 4: understand subtexs. Yeah, like beyond what is said and what

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Speaker 4: is obvious, that there's a refusal, either deliberately or an

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Speaker 4: absence of ability to see beneath. And there's some people,

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Speaker 4: I think who use the tool of shallowness simply as

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Speaker 4: that a tool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like a defense mechanism.

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Speaker 4: Or I will get you coming the other way. It's

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Speaker 4: sort of like you won't see me coming. It's sort

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Speaker 4: of like you won't see me coming. So you've ever

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Speaker 4: been in community with people who you may have relegated

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Speaker 4: to the category of shallow, not deep, not the person

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Speaker 4: you're gonna go to for a real conversation and then

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Speaker 4: in an instance, you happen to listen or you happen

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Speaker 4: to hear them in something that they have said really

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Speaker 4: pricked your consciousness because it isn't on the superficial it

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Speaker 4: is they sort of had a moment where they revealed

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Speaker 4: that I'm as deep as you. I can go there

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Speaker 4: if I want to. I choose to keep this relationship

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Speaker 4: where it is so that I don't have to do

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Speaker 4: this is that and the third with you, and I

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Speaker 4: think that I have experienced people who have used the

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Speaker 4: veneer of superficiality as a way to cover for what

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Speaker 4: I've come to learn as a much deeper thinker, analyzer,

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Speaker 4: and quite frankly operator, yeah, you know, and an operator

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Speaker 4: to their benefit right in their interests.

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Speaker 3: One of the things I'm thinking about now because it's

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Speaker 3: like if you contrast between somebody who is shallow and

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Speaker 3: someone who is deep, at least theoretically, or maybe they

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Speaker 3: vacillate between the two. The person who I was just

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Speaker 3: thinking about is Congressman Bennie Thompson. He is not shallow

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Speaker 3: at all, but he says things that feel sometimes that

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Speaker 3: feel very surface, like he can reach you at USA

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Speaker 3: today and it has you know, some shakespeare like meaning,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't even sink in like that until later.

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Speaker 3: We were having a conversation recently, and I'll speak more vaguely,

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Speaker 3: but I was in trouble because he felt like I

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Speaker 3: wasn't reaching out the way that I should.

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Speaker 2: And he was right, and he was just like something

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Speaker 2: like you know.

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Speaker 3: I was like, So I called him the next or

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Speaker 3: a couple of days later, and I said, I'm just

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Speaker 3: calling to check in. I don't want anything. I just

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Speaker 3: wanted to make sure you knew that I was here.

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Speaker 3: And he was like, yeah, I'm just telling you to

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Speaker 3: just check in every now and then. And he was

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Speaker 3: like he was making fun of me. He's like, I

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Speaker 3: talked to your dad more than you. My dad calls

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Speaker 3: all of them all the time. On a surface level,

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Speaker 3: on a shallow level, it sounds like just tapping in

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Speaker 3: every now and then is a very shallow point. But

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Speaker 3: is it actually isn't like it it is. There's a

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Speaker 3: ton of depth attached to it. When you check in

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Speaker 3: with someone, it creates attachment, it creates relationship, and it

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Speaker 3: ensures that people know just what's going on in people's

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Speaker 3: everyday lives. When you don't check in with someone you

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Speaker 3: don't necessarily know they need surgery, or you don't necessarily

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Speaker 3: know that someone in their family is struggling, or you know,

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Speaker 3: there are all of these different layers that you miss

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Speaker 3: from what it feels like a relatively shallow touch.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Also, I find with those shallow touches, it might appear,

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Speaker 4: if you want to categorize it that way, that those

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Speaker 4: touch ins also provide just that nugget, like something happens

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Speaker 4: in the course of that extrage. Yeah, that again might

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Speaker 4: transform the battle that you might be in. He may

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Speaker 4: not be as clueless about the battle as you're fighting

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Speaker 4: as you think. He is, maybe more tuned in you

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Speaker 4: never is. And where you choose to check in, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: he may be the South, And something that he says

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Speaker 4: may be the South that you've been looking for and

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Speaker 4: you just didn't know it. I found with my father

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Speaker 4: that while he didn't talk a lot to us, right

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Speaker 4: unless it was a directive, that when he did choose

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Speaker 4: to say something, he was really saying something and I

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Speaker 4: didn't always get it. He'd say, he'd have to say,

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Speaker 4: don't take no wood Nickels off. Nobody Nickel You're right,

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Speaker 4: they don't exist there is no wood Nickel, right, it

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Speaker 4: didn't spend And in other words, it's like, don't be tricked,

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Speaker 4: don't be fooled, don't be you know whatever. I've shared

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Speaker 4: this when I talked about my own testimony where he says,

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Speaker 4: you know, son don't believe the hype like the hype music. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: if you believe what they say good about you, you

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Speaker 4: believe what they say bad, and you'll be a slave

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Speaker 4: to them both. And I had no way to see

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Speaker 4: that properly at the time. But his advice thenn was

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Speaker 4: as prescient, you know, as ever. And if I would

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Speaker 4: have applied it properly, sometimes you need the experience, you know,

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Speaker 4: of what not to do before you appreciate that, you know,

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Speaker 4: the advice. But but it had I known, man, it

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Speaker 4: would have been. But most people would have thought my

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Speaker 4: daddy was just his nickname was Sonny, you know, almost

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Speaker 4: like you know, you know, bright and cheery. He never

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Speaker 4: met a stranger. In fact that my graduation is like

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Speaker 4: oh two little times. So many people you know, get

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Speaker 4: around to your dad right to get around and touching

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Speaker 4: me and meet everybody. So you just thought it was

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Speaker 4: just happy, happy, you know, good, go lucky and and truth.

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Speaker 4: He was an observer, very perceptive of people, incredibly aged

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Speaker 4: and wise, you know, advice and so even in this

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Speaker 4: conversation about what's deep and what's superficial, a lot of

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Speaker 4: people who think they're deep ain'cent at all exactly the yeah,

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Speaker 4: very confused.

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Speaker 2: Makes a good point.

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Speaker 1: She's like when she was around all these like heads

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Speaker 1: of state and you know, high profile people, it's like, you,

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Speaker 1: some of y'all ain't that smart.

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Speaker 2: And I used to have that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we say imposter syndrome, but I think imposter

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Speaker 1: syndrome is when a white man came along and told

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Speaker 1: you weren't good enough to do something, and it stuck

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Speaker 1: with you because you don't you're not born with that.

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Speaker 1: And I remember feeling like every one around me must

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Speaker 1: know something that I don't until you start talking to

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Speaker 1: folks and it's like, yeah, I actually know more than you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but what I don't know I can learn, but you

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Speaker 1: ain't gonna learn what I know. You know, some things

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Speaker 1: that we know is just by osmosis. I think I

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Speaker 1: choose to be shallow on something. I have to go

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Speaker 1: out of my way to force myself because I have

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Speaker 1: to be honest on days it might be a random

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Speaker 1: Saturday where I don't read anything. I might read like

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Speaker 1: a book of work of fiction, but my spirit does

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Speaker 1: feel a little lighter when I don't.

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Speaker 3: Do you just here's the question, because this is the

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Speaker 3: second time now when referencing deep or shallow you go

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Speaker 3: right in to like, yeah, like and well reading something.

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Speaker 3: So your friend who you said is so loving, but

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Speaker 3: you're like, she doesn't read anything.

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Speaker 2: She's not shallow, she's really deep.

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Speaker 3: Right, But then you said on your shallow days, you're

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Speaker 3: not reading something. I wonder how we then define that's good? Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know depth, like it's death just book.

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Speaker 1: That's why I said subtext because I couldn't get to

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Speaker 1: the knowledge place because I thought, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know that it is about our degrees

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Speaker 4: or what we real or how much information that sort

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Speaker 4: of thing. I think. It's like what you see is

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Speaker 4: not you know, the ability to sort of discern what

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Speaker 4: you see isn't what it really is. And that applies

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Speaker 4: across you know, the range of subject matter, so on

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Speaker 4: and so forth. That it takes work to investigate a subtext.

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Speaker 4: It takes effort. You have to put energy the expenditure

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Speaker 4: of energy into trying to figure out what somebody's trying

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Speaker 4: to communicate to you or what they're saying without saying it.

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Speaker 4: So I think a lot of us really do choose

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Speaker 4: in different relationships at different moments whether or not we

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Speaker 4: just want to keep this there or if we're willing

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Speaker 4: to go the layers beneath, and so maybe we're not

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Speaker 4: perpetually any of it.

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Speaker 3: That I think is so true because when I consider

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Speaker 3: the people who are like vulnerable off top, to me,

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Speaker 3: that's deeper than someone who is like, hey, how.

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Speaker 2: You doing you good?

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Speaker 3: You look good?

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Speaker 2: That's very surface.

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Speaker 3: But someone who can say, man, you know I've been

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Speaker 3: going through a lot, you know, behind all my taxis

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Speaker 3: I got, my kid is struggling like they're they're putting

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Speaker 3: it all on the surface, but they've done the work

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Speaker 3: for that stuff to come out. I think that's so different,

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Speaker 3: and that is a form of depth. And so that

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Speaker 3: is my question. When we consider the space that we're

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Speaker 3: creating on this podcast or the people that we want

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Speaker 3: to be in the world, is it really safer on

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Speaker 3: the shallow end? Is it safer in the shallow for us?

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Speaker 3: Then in the deep, where you know, on the shallow end.

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Speaker 2: Are you really known?

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Speaker 3: Can you really be yourself in the shallow when you

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Speaker 3: know your multi dimensional and.

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Speaker 2: Have all these layers?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 2: Is that really safe where you're not yourself? Is it

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Speaker 2: safer for you Angela in the shallow?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm a scorpiogret.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like I need to to staring to see my soul. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I want to see yours. And I

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Speaker 3: would prefer if I didn't have to navigate through some

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Speaker 3: crazy forests and some booby traps and stuff to get there.

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Speaker 1: I think for people who I know and love, I'm

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Speaker 1: like you, I want to be known. But I have

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Speaker 1: to say that is fairly new for me. You said

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Speaker 1: this to me a while ago. Angela and I had

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Speaker 1: two fights. We had one fight, No, we had to

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Speaker 1: who was the second one?

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Speaker 2: The second one we aired? Andrew was like, can we

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Speaker 2: all just get along?

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Speaker 1: People in the comments funny on Andrew they like, I

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Speaker 1: love the way Andrew handles Angela and Zif They're.

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Speaker 4: Like, okay, I don't have literally.

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Speaker 1: Our first one was over a guy, and you remember

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Speaker 1: we were at lunch and it was.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't my potential boot.

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Speaker 3: That sounds like you like Monica was, he don't deserve

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Speaker 3: your ass.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Angelo's point was he doesn't deserve you, not even to

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Speaker 3: breathe your air.

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Speaker 2: Yes, she was right for the record, but imagine that.

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Speaker 1: But what no much offensive? But I said it and

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Speaker 1: I echo it now. But what you said to me,

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Speaker 1: which I had this message, I'm Tiffany Cross, and I

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Speaker 1: approved that message. But what you said to me at

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Speaker 1: the time, I had not heard before. The question hadn't

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Speaker 1: been posed to me before. And you said, I wonder

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Speaker 1: when you come home to yourself?

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Speaker 2: Dot dot dot.

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Speaker 1: There was some other stuff after that, but I thought

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Speaker 1: about that, what does that mean to come home to myself?

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Speaker 1: Because I had been in a shallow with myself for

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Speaker 1: a long time. But when you go deep. Our other

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Speaker 1: sister friend, Latasha Brown, said this to me. I'll go

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Speaker 1: over laughing to cry, and I do.

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Speaker 3: It's good.

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Speaker 2: Latasha said this to me.

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Speaker 1: Latasha Brown, she was telling me when I was going

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Speaker 1: through a lot, and she said, you know.

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Speaker 2: You this sounds mean, but she is a body of love.

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Speaker 1: And she said, it's like you have a bowl of

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Speaker 1: shit and you have put flowers on top, you spray

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Speaker 1: perfume on top, and you present that.

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Speaker 2: To the world.

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Speaker 1: But this is like, this is okay, and you present

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Speaker 1: that to people who you want to get to know.

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Speaker 1: But the thing about shit, you can't cover up shit.

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Speaker 1: And until you deal with that shit deep inside, you

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Speaker 1: have to clean that out first for those flowers to

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Speaker 1: really bloom. And I hope this encourages somebody today because

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Speaker 1: that is when I realized, oh, this is the journey

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Speaker 1: home to myself.

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Speaker 2: It's not this happened to me and I'm moving on.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no feel your feelings, stick in your feelings,

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Speaker 1: be self, your friends, the people around you reflect back

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Speaker 1: to you who you are. See that ugly reflection and

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Speaker 1: work on it and clean it out and come home

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Speaker 1: to yourself. Because you leave home and you go out

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Speaker 1: there and work through all your trauma that your parents

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Speaker 1: in childhood on intentionally, and then on that journey home

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Speaker 1: back to yourself, it's like, oh, let me get rid

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Speaker 1: of this, get rid of this ship, and let flowers boom.

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Speaker 1: So I'm recently in deep with myself, but for a

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Speaker 1: long time, even unbeknownst to myself, I was in the shallow.

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Speaker 1: I ain't even excaded to get that.

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Speaker 4: I appreciate the trust, all right, y'all, we're going to

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Speaker 4: take a quick break and be right back. I think

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Speaker 4: for me, I I definitely took a long way round

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Speaker 4: to the invitation for people to know me more deeply,

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Speaker 4: and one because I didn't think people were that interested

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Speaker 4: and right it was, you know, I sort of saw

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Speaker 4: myself as a production wheel. What can you put out,

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Speaker 4: what can you put out? Give me more? You know,

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Speaker 4: you know, that sort of thing and therapy, largely thanks

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Speaker 4: to Angela, you know, and our Jay's insistence of sitting

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Speaker 4: down and just sort of figuring out how to come

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Speaker 4: home to myself, and that when you do that, you

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Speaker 4: are a lot less concerned about people's thoughts, perceptions, feelings

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Speaker 4: about you. Not in a disrespectful way, but just in

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Speaker 4: a way that, you know what, I'm gonna do this thing,

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Speaker 4: and I'm gonna do it because it's in my pleasure,

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Speaker 4: not because this is what your expectation is of me,

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Speaker 4: this is what you want from me, or I'm not

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Speaker 4: in a performative state, but rather if I come up

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Speaker 4: to you and you and I engage in something at

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Speaker 4: a deeper level, it's simply because it was in my

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Speaker 4: pleasure at the time. And if we don't get to that.

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Speaker 4: I'm not being superficial with you. I'm just saying, what's up,

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Speaker 4: how you doing. I hope all this well and I'm

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Speaker 4: moving on, and you should as well. We had a

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Speaker 4: positive encounter, because we did, and I do wish you well,

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Speaker 4: But I I didn't open an invitation to know that

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Speaker 4: the world was upside down for you, partly because everybody

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Speaker 4: doesn't deserve that. Have me earned that from you? Everyone

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Speaker 4: it shouldn't be treated to that. And I don't think

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Speaker 4: that is a denial of yourself. I don't think that

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Speaker 4: is a departure from who you are. I don't think

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Speaker 4: that is putting on certainly if you're acting without expectation.

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Speaker 4: I'm not doing this thing because I want this thing

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Speaker 4: to be said back to me in return. I didn't

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Speaker 4: do that thing for you to compliment me. I didn't

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Speaker 4: give that speech for you to be wild bowed over

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Speaker 4: and say, oh, you're an excellent speaker. I did it,

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Speaker 4: and I said it, and it came out that way

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Speaker 4: because it was in my pleasure, it was in my truth.

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Speaker 4: I stood there and if you get something from it, good,

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Speaker 4: and if you didn't, that's okay too, because I did

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Speaker 4: it not in service to that but in service to me,

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Speaker 4: and by being in service to me that God knows it,

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Speaker 4: I believe it will bless beyond.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Wise, there was no intention of doing it that way

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Speaker 4: or doing it at all, and therefore it wouldn't have happened.

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Speaker 4: So I think we choose the moments at which we

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Speaker 4: have our reveals, whatever those reveals may be. And I

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Speaker 4: don't want to judge them those reveals. It's just that's

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Speaker 4: where you and I are with each other, and we

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Speaker 4: might encounter each other on another day and we may

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Speaker 4: be someplace different because you may be someplace different and

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Speaker 4: your expectation of me may be different at that time.

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Speaker 4: But what I like about this conversation is, I think

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Speaker 4: where we're going to get leading to is that we're

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Speaker 4: taking the value judgment off of the the shallow from

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Speaker 4: the depth, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And exploring what it means.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying, is it the second time you

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Speaker 1: brought up reading something or like knowledge and what I

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Speaker 1: perceive it to be. But that's not really the shallow

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Speaker 1: or the deep like that's just you know.

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Speaker 3: It's the form of it. It's intellectual depth. But is

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Speaker 3: there there's there's another kind that I think results in

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Speaker 3: real human connection, right like timcy that people will say

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Speaker 3: means into me see and can you do that If

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Speaker 3: there's a shell or there's a layer, or there's a

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Speaker 3: barrier that really, you know, maybe came as a result

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Speaker 3: of a very deep, deeply wounded place, but it's created

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Speaker 3: a barrier that feels very shallow. We talk about creating

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Speaker 3: a safe space here. We can't create a safe space

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Speaker 3: here for our podcast if we're not safe spaces for

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Speaker 3: ourselves as co hosts and also as individuals. And that

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Speaker 3: is a regular journey and return home to yourselves. I

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Speaker 3: also don't want to take credit for that. That's a

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Speaker 3: yachty saying to return Yai home to ourselves, but it

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Speaker 3: is a regular return. Like you think about going home

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Speaker 3: every single day, you have to go and check back

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Speaker 3: in every single day, sometimes multiple times a day, Like

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Speaker 3: where am I?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: Am I still? Who I say? I am?

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Speaker 3: Am? I? You know?

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Speaker 2: Where are my conflicts? Where are my flat sides?

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Speaker 3: Every single week on this podcast, I feel like there's

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Speaker 3: something glaring where I'm like, oh my god, I see

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Speaker 3: my hypocrisy here. I'm I'm gonna call it out so

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Speaker 3: I can be accountable to y'all our listeners and keep growing.

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Speaker 3: That is also a return home to myself. And you

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Speaker 3: were talking about the reveal we're revealing. We literally are

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Speaker 3: shedding layers, you know, every every day, probably multiple hours

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Speaker 3: in a day, we're shedding these layers. And so my

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Speaker 3: hope is that in this conversation that will never end

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Speaker 3: because we're constantly waiting a little bit deeper. We hope

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Speaker 3: that you all will consider what depth really means and

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Speaker 3: how you can wait in and out of the shallow,

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Speaker 3: but making sure that you know how to create safety

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Speaker 3: for yourself.

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Speaker 4: So that's safety.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Can I just say one more thing when you were

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Speaker 1: talking about creating safe space for co hosts, to me,

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Speaker 1: that's the easier part.

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Speaker 2: Creating the individual part is the hardest part, like.

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Speaker 1: Being at peace internally and seeing your hypocrisy. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you watch yourself, when you hear yourself and it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that is something that I have to sit in.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to address, I have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: I have to unpack and come out better on the

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Speaker 1: other And I don't know that we have an answer

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Speaker 1: to the question. It might not be safer in the

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Speaker 1: deep in, but you have to learn to be comfortable

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Speaker 1: in the deep in with yourself because that's your home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Welcome home, y'all. Welcome yeah, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, thanks for listening to you guys. Please please please

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Speaker 1: remember to rate, review, subscribe, and tune into our regular

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Speaker 1: episode on Thursdays. We Welcome home, y'all. Native Land Pod

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Speaker 1: is the production of iHeartRadio and partnership with Recent Choice Media.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.