1 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to staff. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Mom never told you Protection of I Heart Radio. And 3 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 1: today is another episode of Female First with Me, where 4 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: once again joined by our good friend and colleague Eaves. 5 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: Welcome Eaves. Hello everyone, We're always thrilled to have you. 6 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: And as we're recording this, it is a Friday. It 7 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: is a Friday. Yes, I like I say, I say 8 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: that with such like I know the day right? You 9 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: have to remind yourself. Yeah, so you haven't remind me 10 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: often of what day it is. I'm like, is it okay? Great? 11 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: I just I just had a callenger saying things That's true. 12 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: Every morning I email Samantha, like today on your docket 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: is man, can we arrange that? I need that? If 14 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: you do. I used to do that with my ex boyfriend, 15 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: no joke, and looking back, like, I'm so surprised you 16 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: put up with so much of my nonsense for so 17 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: long because I would send him like an email today 18 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: we're going to do this, this and this and here 19 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: are some other options and I want to know what 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: you think about this. So he didn't ask for this, 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: You just took it upon yourself to do it. Uh, 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: he didn't ask for it per se. But I was 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: just such a bigger email communicator, which is odd looking back. 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: I didn't text as much as I emailed, um, so 25 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: I think it was just sort of a natural he 26 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: realized we would I respond quicker if he emailed me 27 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: hious text I like to. I like to sit with 28 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: texts for a minute, as I feel like they're easier 29 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: to misinterpret because they're usually shorter, but an email you 30 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: can be longer. You gotta use emojis and emoticons that 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: preten like, look, I'm not being really serious. So I'm 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: even worse at that out in emails because I don't 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: put those in emails. So I feel like I'm even 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: more blunt in emails than I am in texting. Your 35 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: emails are hilarious because they're like no caps and no periods, 36 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: and I'm just like, well, I'm gonna put my own 37 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: emotion on this, exactly what I'm saying. Like there's nothing 38 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: I add to it. I'm just like, here's the sentence end. Yes, Yes, 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: I'm very professional. Mm hmm. That's efficiency is what that is. 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I think you guys, I've worked in 41 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: a government field that I had to get out emails 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: so quickly, and I try to be as like official 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: as possible, but it would just be a literal like 44 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: ten ten different back and forth conversation in one chain 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: that I just like, get the stunt, Get the stunt. 46 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: So that's kind of in my mind frame. I get it. 47 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: I get it. I feel like if I had to 48 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: choose my most random skill set, one of mine would 49 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: be composing emails. I feel like I'm very good at it. 50 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: Um it's an art form, that's are you proud of 51 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: that skill? I just I'm so Sending emails is a 52 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,399 Speaker 1: pain for me sometimes. So is that something that you 53 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: you take with pride? Ann? I do, because I do 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: think you have to consider how it could be misinterpreted 55 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: and just clear so you're not gonna have more emails 56 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: than you want. I don't. I won't say I necessarily 57 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: like it, but I am. I do feel some pride, 58 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: some pride. It is a skill. It's a skill, for sure. Yes, yes, well, uh, 59 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: we are talking about someone with a different set of 60 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: skills today, not email or texting. Who did you bring 61 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: for us today? You? Well, today we're going to be 62 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: talking about a fon moy so her history is very interesting. 63 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: Um she was another one of those people who I 64 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: think we talked about for a previous episode who there 65 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: isn't a ton about um And that's very purposeful motitional, 66 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: like who's history gets recorded. But yeah, we're gonna be 67 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: talking about a Fong moy. So she wasn't the first 68 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: Chinese person in the US, but she was likely the 69 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: first documented Chinese woman in the US. She was the 70 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: only Chinese woman to be exhibited as an exhibited that's 71 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: in quotes as a curiosity, because saying that a person 72 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: was exhibited sounds weird, but like technically that's what she 73 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: was doing. She was an exhibition and she was a performer. 74 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 1: But as as a curiosity. Before Chinese people began mass 75 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: immigrating to the United States, Um, so she got a 76 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: lot of national recognition in the US. And also it's 77 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: notable to think that there were Chinese men in the 78 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: US at the time, but she was the only known 79 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: Chinese woman who was in the US. So just to 80 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: be in that position else is a whole thing. But yeah, 81 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: like I said, there's not a lot known about her life, 82 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: and I think in the past, something that's a little 83 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: bit different about talking about a Fon Boy today, is 84 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: that in the past, we've kind of really focused on 85 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: women who we're talking about their accomplishments, like their first 86 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: were the things that were Oh they were the first 87 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: black woman architect in this place, and obviously those things 88 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: are very important, but that the circumstances around this first 89 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: is a little bit different than the previous first we've 90 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: talked about. So I just want to be clear that 91 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: her arrival and kind of tenure in the US aren't 92 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: necessarily like a celebratory thing completely. She was kind of 93 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: trotted out like a show horse, you know, like she 94 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: and of course she as one person can't stand for 95 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: all Chinese people, are all Chinese women. And so this 96 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: isn't kind of me saying wow, like, look a fon 97 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: boy made it out of China into the US, like 98 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: what a pioneer. Like That's not at all what I'm 99 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: trying to say, because I'm definitely not here to up 100 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: whole all of the isms and all of the problematic 101 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: things that surround her time in the US, like so 102 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: many like there are so many layers to the story. 103 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: There's the xenophobia, there's imperialism, there's racism, there's stativism, there 104 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: is the exoticizing and all that stuff was imparted on 105 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 1: Moy during her lifetime, and so so I just kind 106 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: of wanted to preface with that. Like this story, I'm 107 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 1: also not here to pain her story as a tragedy 108 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: because I feel like as a person who has limited knowledge, 109 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: like I'm not a historian of Moi, and also like 110 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: her story in general, there isn't that much documented about it, 111 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: like her time when she was in China before she 112 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: came to the US. So I'm not I don't want 113 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: to paint her story as this tragedy. Like the only 114 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: thing that she embodied, the only thing that her life 115 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: embodied was performance. That's what we know about her, but 116 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: that's not all of her life. And so I think 117 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 1: we have to keep in mind, just as we would 118 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: keep in mind as we're watching a movie, like we're 119 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: starting in media risk kind of to be like a 120 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: nerdy like metaphor, like there were things that bit before 121 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: the conversation that we know we're able to have about her, 122 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: and things that happened after that we don't know about 123 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: her that we can't necessarily bring up today because we 124 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: don't know it. And so her value wasn't only instilled 125 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: her value wasn't only about the performative work that she 126 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: did in the US. So I just want to preface 127 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: with that a lot of what we know about her 128 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: comes from other people as well, Like not from her 129 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: own voice, comes from letters, It comes from article as, 130 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: it comes from diaries, it comes from scrapbooks. Yeah, and 131 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: the story is fascinating. And I know in in past 132 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: episodes of Female First, Um, we are perhaps me. I 133 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: don't want to speak for both of you, but I've 134 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: had that moment of oh, well, I don't understand all 135 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: the historical cultural context of what was happening in China 136 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: at the time or in wherever, I mean, even in 137 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: the US. There's just things that I might not even 138 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: think to question, and less I really really dig into 139 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: and into things. Um. So I think that in her 140 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: story is good to keep in mind as well. And 141 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: it is so interesting looking back with our our modern 142 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: eyes where um now you can hop on a plane 143 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: and go to pretty much anywhere, that this was a 144 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: time when a lot of Americans had never seen someone 145 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: from China. And that's so I just keep that in mind. Yeah, um, yeah, right, 146 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: I mean I get the fun experiences of just being 147 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: an Asian woman when I lived in like the smaller towns, 148 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: and even though they know of Asian cultures, still there's 149 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: enough ignorance out there not everyone obviously that they would 150 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: be like, what are you, which is the first question 151 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: I would get, And that in itself is kind of 152 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: like can you imagine what happened when they have actually 153 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: never knew an Asian person in general, and then being like, Okay, seriously, 154 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: what I think? That's kind I cannot imagine being just 155 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: already having to deal with some of the confusion and 156 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 1: ignorance here today and then going to think about the 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: reality of, oh my god, what would have been like 158 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: back then, and that kind of that back and forth 159 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, as you, I know, you're gonna unfold all 160 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: of this reading about just some of the things that 161 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: they assume about her life and again some of the 162 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: silence and what might not have happened. It's kind of like, wow, 163 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: I wonder how lonely at the same time, how much 164 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: she tried to play into that to be accepted. But yeah, 165 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: I know we're gonna do that. Yeah, yeah, for sure, 166 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: I and I guess it's like weird. There is a 167 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: weird line where you try to have or I'll speak 168 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: for myself, where I try to have a level of 169 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: empathy about like, well, this is a thing that is 170 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: truly completely foreign to a person, but the way in 171 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: which that was imparted on her, Like you can say 172 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: I've never seen a thing. Oh, I've never seen a thing, 173 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: and then you can say I've never seen a thing. 174 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: How awful is that thing? Like how weird is that thing? 175 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: How strange is that thing? And like they did that 176 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: with her foot binding, which we'll talk about, and they 177 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: did that with her, you know, herself, and had a 178 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: lot of commentary on like you know, what they thought 179 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: was right and what they thought should be the case 180 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: based on you know, American white values and religion and 181 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: upbringing and morals and all of those things, and tried 182 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: to project what they thought was quote unquote right onto 183 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: onto her culture and her customs and her So yeah, 184 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: it's super complicated. I mean yeah, like thinking about what 185 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: you said, Samantha, just about how today like it's already 186 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: it's a huge thing. To be the only Chinese woman 187 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: that people have seen like period up until that time 188 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: is definitely I can't imagine. And I can't relate to 189 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: be the only because I think we're still put in 190 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: positions like that today, Like I'm still in rooms where 191 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: I'm the only black woman in the room. But this 192 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: is that on a way largest, different, different culture. So yeah, um, 193 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: I guess we can get into her story now. Yeah, well, yeah, 194 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: any you mentioned not knowing what China at the time 195 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: was like art, I'm not specifically China at the time. 196 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: Any you mentioned like not necessarily knowing the context around 197 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: things that were happening in specific cultures and nations at 198 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: the time. Um, and China at the time. I think 199 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: it's worth talking a little bit about the background of 200 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: the context in this case, just because it figure so 201 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: much into the story and the way that people viewed her. 202 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: And obviously I can't go through the whole history of 203 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: the place as the largest China in a short amount 204 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: of time, so this is going to be simplification. And 205 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: obviously the history is more complicated than this. But this 206 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: is during a Ching dynasty, which lasted from the mid 207 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: and obviously, to my pronunciations, I know are not nuanced 208 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to Chinese. But yeah, so it last 209 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: it from around the mid sixteen hundreds to the early 210 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds, it was generally prosperous. Um population was growing 211 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: majorly in a big way during some part of the 212 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: Team dynasty, and there was restricted trade and relations with 213 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: the West, and in the seventeen fifties, Western trade was 214 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,479 Speaker 1: restricted to the southern part of Canton guang Jo today. 215 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: But um, as the demand for t increased and the 216 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution came along, people in our Britain was looking 217 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: for more markets for manufactured goods, and so they tried 218 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,239 Speaker 1: to trying to extend that out to China and establish 219 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: Western style relations with the Chinese. But by the early 220 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, UM, when trade and commerce and 221 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: like relations starts, conflict starts to be a part of 222 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: the pot as well. Um, when people start to stick 223 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: their hands and things. So Western countries began to be 224 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: more engaged in conflicts with China as they were scrambling 225 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: to kind of get access to Chinese products and markets 226 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: for European and US trade. So yeah, there was this 227 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: insular kind of isolationist situation that was happening in China. 228 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: Um when it came to Chinese people leaving China and 229 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: Western people coming to China. That was a part of 230 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: it also, as I mentioned briefly earlier, Afong Moy her 231 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: feet were bound. That was a practice that grew a 232 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: lot during the Chain dynasty, and the Manchu's attempted to 233 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: ban that practice of footbinding, but they weren't able to 234 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: do so, and the Han Chinese were They were the 235 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: ones who mainly practiced foot binding, um, and they continued 236 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: to do so, and it did limit women's physical mobility. 237 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: And so anyway, people from the US did visit China, 238 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: so it wasn't like there weren't any Western people or 239 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: people from the U S specifically in China. There were, 240 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: and there were people who were lived in the US 241 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: who had never been to China who were interested in 242 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: in it and had other depictions of China and saw 243 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: it as this mystical, far away place. And yeah, so 244 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: there were like landscape scenes on Chinese ceramics that made 245 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: their way to the US and kind of paying it 246 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: China as this picturesque place. And people were also really 247 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: into the idea of Chinese women and foot binding when 248 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: they found out about it, and there was this air 249 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: of mystery around that as well. Um. And I mean, 250 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: there's obviously so much problematic stuff when it comes to 251 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: the way that people viewed and spoke about Chinese women 252 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: and footbinding and all that stuff back then. But I 253 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: kind of think of it as this way where they're 254 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: like portraying Chinese women as these cryptids. It's like, oh, 255 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: this a list of unicorn or like a big foot 256 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: that I've never liked seen. Maybe I'll get to see 257 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: it one day, Like I have no idea how this 258 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: creature works, type of situation. So that's kind of a 259 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: little bit of background when it comes to China and 260 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: views of China and how those were developing at the time, 261 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: and as we'll get to a little bit later, those 262 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: did change, those views did evolve over time. We have 263 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: a lot more for you listeners, but first we're gonna 264 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: pass for a quick frick for we're from our sponsors 265 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: every back, Thank you sponsored. So onto the story of 266 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: a Fong Boy and how she got to the U s. 267 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: So there's not much known about her personal family history 268 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: before that time. This is kind of where her story starts. Generally, 269 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: there were the traders Nathaniel and Frederick Carne, and they 270 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: were in the business of importing foreign goods to the US, 271 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: and they have their own backstory, but today is not 272 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: about them, so we won't talk about I love it. 273 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: So that included good from China, and those Chinese goods 274 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: were things like handkerchiefs, like shawls, fireworks, baskets, fans, watercolor paintings, 275 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: and a bunch of other items. So these guys decided 276 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: to develop a marketing scheme and what do you know, 277 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: along with Captain o'bar. So they did this with Captain o'beer, 278 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: and that would help with selling their goods. And they 279 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: wanted to their whole scheme was exhibiting a Chinese woman 280 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: in New York, and they wanted to surround her with 281 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: Chinese decor and furniture so that they could sell their goods. 282 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: But they would kind of use the woman as the 283 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: centerpiece to bring people in and then once they were there, 284 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: they would scour her whole appearance and her customs and 285 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: everything that she did. But in the meantime, all the 286 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: things that she was surrounded by and be like, oh, 287 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: like my precious, you know, all of these shiny furniture 288 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: and decor and items that they would love along the 289 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: way and hopefully be tempted into buying them. Because middle 290 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: class white women were had a little bit more time 291 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: and and resources to be able to to get such things, 292 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: and the morals and the values around being able to 293 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: acquire those things was also something that was developing at 294 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: the time. I know y'all can talk about it and 295 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: probably like have you know, done research on it as well, 296 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: But the storied history of white folks putting people of 297 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: different ethnicities and customs and cultures on display is not 298 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: something that's limited to a Fung Moy. So I know 299 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: y'all have probably heard of Start Department or the quote 300 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: unquote venous Hot and Ty who was put on display 301 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: human zoos that were really popular in Britain and so 302 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: called freak shows, and Chang and a Bunker who were 303 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: the who they call the Siamese Twins, who were joint 304 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: twins who were put on display as curiosities. So at 305 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: Moy was objectified and kind of dehumanized in a similar way. Um, 306 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: But I don't want to take all of her agency 307 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,360 Speaker 1: at from her, because she did have agency as well 308 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: and made choices. That's worth being recognized that yes she 309 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: was trot it out, and yes she was put on display, 310 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: and yes she was brought over from China, but there 311 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: was agency in her story as well. So like Oh 312 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: Bear apparently reached an agreement with afon Woi's father, who 313 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: was likely a Cantonese merchant or comfordor and her father 314 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: got money out of the deal. But apparently Oh Beer 315 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: also promised to bring Moy back to China in two years. 316 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: Spoiler alert, that did not happen. She stayed in the 317 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: US for a lot longer than two years. Oh yeah, 318 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: do we know did she ever make it? She didn't 319 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: go back? Right, No, she We don't know if she 320 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: ever went back or not. I think the most we 321 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: can do is speculate on whether she went back to 322 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: China or not, like what happened after she left the 323 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 1: U S. As I read somewhere that she made gone 324 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: to Europe at one point in time. Yeah, sibly, possibly possibly, um, 325 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: but there's not really any record of her after a 326 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: certain point in the US, so she didn't. She came 327 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: to the U S in eighteen thirty four, and a 328 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: Boy was a name that was probably given to her. 329 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: She was on Chinese, which is surmised because of her 330 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: foot binding um and her her family background wasn't recorded 331 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: when she arrived here, and this was before the times 332 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: of the gold Rush. Like I said earlier, this is 333 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: before mass Chinese immigration to the US. And she was 334 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: likely around sixteen, probably no older than nineteen, so she 335 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: was young. Um and when she came to the U 336 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: s was at that point where she became the first 337 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: document to Chinese woman to enter the US. So she 338 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: arrived on a ship called the Washington under Captain o'bear. 339 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: She had come from Canton. Articles and there are a 340 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: bunch of articles on her like that you can read, 341 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: which are bad, hilarious, like yeah, it's a lot going 342 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: on in these articles, but it said that she was 343 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: There was one that says she was four ft ten 344 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: inches tall and that her feet were just four inches 345 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: long since she wore quote unquote iron shoes since she 346 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: was twelve years old. And it said that she would 347 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: soon start accepting visitors at Number eight part place in 348 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: New York. And at first articles gave her different names 349 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: before she was given the name Afong Boy. There was one, 350 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: for instance, that gave her the name Miss Ching Chung Foo. 351 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: I don't know where they got that name from, but 352 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: that was the name that they gave her in one article. 353 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: That article was in the New York Commercial advertiser, and 354 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: so there were other names that she was given as 355 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: well that I don't know the the source of. I 356 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: don't know where those names came from. Obviously a lot 357 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: to be said about somebody naming somebody when they get 358 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: to the US, and also not necessarily knowing anything about 359 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: Chinese culture or having ever seen a Chinese woman before, yep. 360 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: I don't know where they came from. UM. But she 361 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: did have an attendant who would translate for her, So 362 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: she didn't know how to speak English at the time. 363 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: She had an attendant who would translate for her. And 364 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: at the place where she would be exhibited, which they 365 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: were setting up when she got over here. UM. And 366 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: there will also big various objects of Chinese curiosity around her. Um. 367 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: The price of that mission was fifty cents. There were 368 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: some earlier sources that said twenty five cents, but it 369 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: looked like they bumped it up after a while, and 370 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: children under twelve were half that According to articles, there 371 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: of course, were a bunch of physical descriptions of her appearance, 372 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: and in articles and in letters, and so by way 373 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: of somebody else's description of her, not her description of herself. 374 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: I will tell y'all what they said she looked like. 375 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: So there was a November article in the Vermont Courier 376 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: that described her this way. She is short, but rather 377 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: robust in stature. Her features are pleasing, her forehead high 378 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: and protuberant, and her face round and full, with two 379 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: languishing black eyes placed with the peculiarly it's a hard word, 380 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: that is really hard, obliquity of her outer angle, which 381 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: characterized the Mongolian. I guess that's how you pronounced that 382 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: variety of the human race from which these people are descended. 383 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: So the article later says that she was quote much 384 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: pleased with our country and not at all homesick. I'm 385 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: not sure. I'm really not quite sure how they reached that. 386 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm assuming. I'm assuming it's an assumption, because the article 387 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: doesn't say that she said it. It says it is 388 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: said that. So I don't know if those are words 389 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,479 Speaker 1: from her mouth or not. But as you would imagine, 390 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: all of the things that we were talking about earlier, 391 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: like the nativism and the patriots, is all those things 392 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: that are probably happening have to do with that. But 393 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: that's my assumption as well. Yeah, So, over the next decade, 394 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: there were a lot more articles written about a Fon 395 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: Moy Um. And as you can see about that kind 396 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: of description and what we've talked about earlier, a lot 397 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: of them were very orientalist mothering and really grossly doting 398 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: and patronizing um. And I'll pull out a quote from 399 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: an article that tal Zog wrote in teen that was 400 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: called the start of American Accommodation of the Chinese A 401 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: Fon Boys Experience from eighteen fifty um, just because I 402 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: feel like it's a good way too to put it um. 403 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 1: And this is what said. Her very presence as the 404 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: first recorded Chinese woman on American soil prompted a heated 405 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: national discussion regarding how to accommodate the Chinese living among Americans. 406 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: A two tier paradigm that emerged from this dialogue disparaged 407 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: Chinese culture while extending paternalistic care to Moy, pushing her 408 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: towards acculturation, which was to be realized in a symbolic 409 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: way after her disappearance from the exhibition stage. And that 410 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: is the paternalism that's just so apparent in her story. 411 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: Is it's so gross, and like to also think that 412 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: she was don't like she was actually very young at 413 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: the time as a as a layer to that, and 414 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: that that eventually did turn into hostility and specifically anti 415 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: Chinese sentiment and action, um of course. But it's kind 416 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: of important to layer that in what was happening in 417 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: the U S at the top two, which was obviously 418 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: many things like many things are happening at once in 419 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: the thirties, but some of the things were like Andrew 420 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: Jackson was president. The Indian Removal Act became law in 421 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties, so just a few years before A Fat 422 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 1: Boy got to the US end. Of course, millions of 423 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: people were enslaved in the United States, So there was 424 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,719 Speaker 1: an idealistic view of China at the time. The Opium 425 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: War still hadn't started taking place yet, that would start 426 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: happening soon, but there was this view of China that 427 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: was influenced by the goods and by the letters of 428 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: people who have been there, um. So it was very 429 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: very narrow view of what China and Chinese people were. 430 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: If you can't even you can't even really group that 431 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: into a whole thing, so but that that was it 432 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: was a very limited view. So it's it's really unclear 433 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: exactly how many people went to see F. F. On Boy, 434 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: but it was in the thousands. Some people didn't record 435 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: their experiences with her, and most of them were of 436 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: the middle and the upper middle classes. After she got 437 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: to the US, there were some really stories that popped 438 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: up about her in the newspapers. There was one that 439 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: she had never seen a left handed person before. Okay, yeah, yeah. 440 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: There was ones that were saying she disappeared, m r 441 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: SHEI left or something like that. But when her exhibition 442 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: finally opened, people came to ogle her and her bound feet, 443 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: and according to newspapers, kind of in those early times, 444 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 1: she didn't really like it when men tried to get 445 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: a closer look at her feet, but wasn't as opposed 446 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: to it when women would try to get it closer 447 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: look at her feet. Um At Tongue was the name 448 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: of her interpreter, and he would help her communicate with 449 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: visitors and also make sure that she would get out 450 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: of her seat to walk around across the room for 451 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: people from time to time, and there were plenty of 452 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: people in New York in the beginning who did go 453 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: to see her, but some did object to the way 454 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: she was displayed as exploitation. Some people objected to the 455 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: fact that her feet were bound, saying, oh my gosh, 456 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: it's a disgrace that she was being, you know, harmed 457 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: by her feet being bound. Um, and just generally, I guess, 458 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: being and clear about like the custom of foot binding itself. Um, 459 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: and working through their feelings and thoughts on that after 460 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: finally seeing it in person. Mm hmm. We have a 461 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: little bit more for you, but first we have one 462 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: more quick break for work fromer sponsor and we're back. 463 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: Let's get back into it. Yeah. So, after her time 464 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: in New York, she went on tour to other places 465 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: across the US. For instance, she went to New Haven, 466 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: she went to New Orleans, she went to Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, 467 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: and she even ended up in Cuba, and she would 468 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: sing songs in Chinese and she was learning English all 469 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: the while. And she she even met with Andrew Jackson 470 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: in the White House. And it's not quite clear exactly 471 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: what the reason for that was, but she did. And 472 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Captain o'bear and the Carnes did profit from her ticket sales, 473 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: but they made more in the long run from the 474 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: sales of the Chinese goods, like the ones that were 475 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: in display in the rooms that she was in. So 476 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: things like vass mirrors, lamps, chairs, all of this sort 477 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: of decordi of objects and furniture were things that they 478 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: were able to sell because of her exhibitions. Yeah, so 479 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: of course the whole footbinding thing was the thing that 480 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: was an anomaly or like so fascinating to so many 481 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,719 Speaker 1: people who visited her and got really um invasive at 482 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: times when people wanting to her to uncover her feet 483 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: and measure her feet, and there were physicians actually in 484 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: Philly who examined them. They begged to examine them, and 485 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: they got to. She consented and they took measurements and 486 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: they published those measurements in the newspaper. And later I 487 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: think it was in Charleston when she uncovered her feet 488 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: again and this time for the ticketed public to see. 489 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: So the story goes on and on like that of 490 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: her in all these cities, in these exhibitions, acting as 491 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: a performer, introducing real, live in the flesh Chinese culture 492 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: and Chinese personhood two people, and those exhibitions created us 493 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: interests and called Chinese culture and society, which there already 494 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: was before, but it kind of hyped that up in 495 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: addition to selling the goods, and she didn't really have 496 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: a home though, so she was just traveling all the 497 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: time to all these different shows, and she really depended 498 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: a lot on her manner jurors. And everything wasn't so 499 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: sweet with the Carns though, like everything wasn't always good 500 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: with their business. Um. They fell on hard times when 501 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: the Panic of eighteen thirty seven hit, which was a 502 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: kind of a financial crisis that kind of led to 503 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: a depression. UM. So they were bringing in so many 504 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: goods but didn't necessarily have the audience or the consumers 505 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: to be able to pick that stuff up. And then 506 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: all this other stuff and in the US economics was 507 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: happening at the same time. That didn't bode well for 508 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: the business. And Aphon Moy around that time eight was 509 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: supposedly abandoned UM and lived in poor conditions in New Jersey, 510 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: and she spent several years there according to documents. But 511 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: interests in goods Chinese goods did resurface later in the 512 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: late eighteen forties, and in eighteen forty eight she and 513 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: Tom Thumb shared an exhibition space under P. T. Barnum 514 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: whose history is like a whole lot of thing um 515 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: that is a lot of displaying of like it's super 516 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: controversial history. But she fell out of favor with Barnum 517 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: after a while as well. And Moi was in the 518 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 1: US until around eighteen fifty as far as we know, 519 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: like that's not the official date saying like, oh, she 520 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: left after that, but at that point records started of 521 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: her disappeared um and that's kind of where her story 522 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: in letters ends, like where her story in writing ends, 523 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: as far as we know. And that was also around 524 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: the time things were changing a lot in the U 525 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: s I mean, during her time here that we do 526 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: know about. We know things were changing. So the mass 527 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: immigration of Chinese people to the US begin in the 528 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: late eighteen forties early eighteen fifties, views of Chinese people 529 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: were changing, so Americans were increasingly to writing her clothing 530 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: and her customs and Chinese clothing and customs in general, 531 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: and her religious beliefs in Chinese religious beliefs are being 532 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: criticized by moral reformers and other Christians in the US. 533 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: And the Opium Wars, like I mentioned earlier, we're starting 534 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: up and trade with China, like Chinese US relations and 535 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: Chinese goods. All of that was changing at the time, 536 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: and it was a build up to kind of I mean, 537 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: so much stuff was happening at this at the time, 538 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: but there was also kind of things that happened later 539 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: around the eight eighties when the Chinese Exclusion Act was 540 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: introduced and very specific anti Chinese legislation UM and actions 541 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: were being taken on in federal and local scales. So 542 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: it kind of just feels like this bubble in time, 543 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: um afon Moise story does where she was there to 544 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: see that transition. It was also part of that transition 545 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: of while this mystical place that China was, and then 546 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: while this place that maybe isn't so great in our 547 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: eyes that we thought before, you know, we feel a 548 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: certain way about it now. Um and all this nativism 549 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: creeping in, all this you know, racism and in those 550 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of sentiments creeping in. So yeah, it just feels 551 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: like I really wish I knew a lot more about 552 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: her story and like what happened to her after after Yeah, 553 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 1: and it is looking back at what we do have, 554 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: it is such a it's strange looking at ads with 555 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: her in them, and UM, I would recommend to anyone 556 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: who's interested in learning more because it is a very 557 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: interesting story. Um looking into that and uh huh. Yeah, 558 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: it is just such a specific time, and to read 559 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: some of it, it's so kind of pro American and saying, look, 560 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: compared to this, how much better, how more much more superior? 561 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: We are? Um, especially towards the end, as you say, 562 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: when attitude shifted. Yeah. I wish we knew more about 563 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: her too. And I know there's a lot of interest 564 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: because isn't there a movie, there's a book, but there 565 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: was a play about other play Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 566 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: And I didn't see the play itself, but what I 567 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: read about the play was that it was kind of 568 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: attempting to be from a f On Wars perspective, which 569 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: is a lot that we haven't gotten through documentation since 570 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: it was from other people's perspectives, And obviously that was 571 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: That's something that I would love to know more about. Two, 572 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: like what did aff On Boy herself think about? And 573 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: even in the phrasing that people would give from the 574 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 1: interpreter a tongue, I was like, is this really what 575 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: she said? Or is this what you wanted to tell 576 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: people that she said? Yeah, right, yeah, I know. I 577 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: I would love so much to know the motivations for her, 578 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: even though it was her father was involved in that decision, 579 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: but just how does she felt and thought and when 580 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: she was mad learning them when she arrived. There was 581 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 1: one report I read, because it was back and forth, 582 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: that it was possible that she left too send money 583 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: back to the family, the father or something like that. 584 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,479 Speaker 1: But I don't know how any of this is true. 585 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: I think that was just one report out of you know, 586 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: the majority was saying that it was a father that 587 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: pretty much said she could go rather than the other 588 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: way around. But I just wondered if that was possibility 589 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: as well, because it's, yeah, it's thetory like those way 590 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of understanding. And because she 591 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: does disappear, which kind of sings like the theme for 592 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: this time frame for many of historical like figures um 593 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: that you kind of wonder what did happen? And and 594 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: for me like was it tragic? Was she able to 595 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: get out of it? What happened? Right? Yeah? And I 596 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: would I would love to know her thoughts on the performance, like, yeah, 597 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: what was she really interested in? Like did she continue 598 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: I know she went on to barn them, but after 599 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: that she still continued to form. Did she enjoy it 600 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: as a livelihood or was it just something that she 601 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: had to do out of necessities, like you said, to 602 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: send money back to her family, or yeah, what was 603 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: her agency in her own words as well? So so 604 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 1: many questions, right, yeah, same questions mysteries of history as 605 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: they say, Okay, I have heard that, but yeah that 606 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,879 Speaker 1: makes sense. I say that all the time. Maybe it's 607 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 1: just me, maybe it's heism and anyism, but yeah, it's 608 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: it's almost tragic to say because she was put on 609 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: a display by the same time, like I saw one 610 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: report saying again this is just probably an assumption. Again 611 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 1: a bigger stereotype of her being a quote lotus blossom 612 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 1: on one hand in her like uh, you know, mannerism, 613 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: but then also the perpetuating but she was fierce tiger 614 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: as well, Like those two stereotypes came into play at 615 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: the same time. How are you both? How is she 616 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: both like that? But why was that the descriptor for her? 617 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,040 Speaker 1: And that was like the perpetuating of the content in 618 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: new stereotype of Asian women in general. Yeah, and we've 619 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: talked about like um as Western countries were getting these 620 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: depictions of um Asian women Chinese women for the first 621 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: time and fetishizing and exoticizing that and things you get 622 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: like Madama butterflies happening, that kind of whole Asian dollar 623 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: stereotype which we talked about, and then I was fascinated 624 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 1: with this. I learned this is I mean, I haven't 625 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: dug too deep into this, but I learned that that's 626 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 1: why t is sort of viewed as feminine and coffee 627 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: is more masking because we associated tea with China with 628 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: Asia and yeah, yeah, and um, just things like that 629 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: where you it really shows how big these impact these 630 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: stereotypes have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he didn't figure a lot 631 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,439 Speaker 1: into the story of the stuff that the Carns were 632 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 1: importing and was accessible, like a lot of cheaper teas 633 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: that were coming from China were accessible to a lot 634 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: of people in the US at the time. Um. Yeah, 635 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:13,439 Speaker 1: it's so layered and so so many stories within the story. Yes, 636 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: and she's kind of a mystery on our own because 637 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: you don't really hear from her or any perspective from 638 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 1: her in general. Yeah. Yeah, but um, the story is 639 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: fascinating and I am glad you once again you brought 640 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: something to my attention that I had never heard about before. 641 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: I never heard of alread either I love it. Yes, 642 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: thank you as always, Eves, I can't wait to do 643 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,399 Speaker 1: it again. Where can the listeners find you? You can 644 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: find me on the line at Eves jeff Co and 645 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: Eve steff Co on Twitter, I am at not apologizing. 646 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: On Instagram. You can also listen to the podcast This 647 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:01,080 Speaker 1: Day in History Class, which is a daily podcast about 648 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: things that happen in history and birthdays in history. And 649 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: you can also hear me on I'm Popular. Yeah, and 650 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: you should do go check all of that out listeners 651 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,319 Speaker 1: um And in the meantime, if you'd like to email us, 652 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: you can. Our email is stuff Media mom Stuff at 653 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. You can fight us on Twitter 654 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff I 655 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: Never Told You. Thanks. It's always to your superproducer Andrew Howard. 656 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never 657 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: Told You. The protection of iHeart Radio for more podcasts 658 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 1: from I heeart Radio is the iHeart Radio app, Apple 659 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.