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Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact, but the

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is Daniel and Jorge from Daniel j Jorge

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Speaker 3: Explain the Universe.

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Speaker 1: We interrupt this podcast for a special announcement.

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Speaker 3: This Friday, March twenty seventh, we were having our first

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Speaker 3: ever Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe live stream events.

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Speaker 1: So join us as we record an episode in real

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Speaker 1: time and take questions from listeners like you.

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Speaker 3: You can submit your questions live on air or send

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Speaker 3: them to us ahead of time at questions at Danielanhorhead

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Speaker 3: dot com. To tune in, just go to YouTube dot

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Speaker 3: com slash PhD Comics. This Friday, March twenty s having

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Speaker 3: at ten am Pacific, that's one pm Eastern, six pm Europe.

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Speaker 1: That's two am in Tokyo and four am in Australia.

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Speaker 3: What time it's out of Mars, Daniel? You know in

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Speaker 3: case aliens want to tune in.

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Speaker 1: Do you think aliens want to ask us questions?

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Speaker 3: Maybe not you. They might have engineering questions.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, I got questions for them.

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Speaker 3: So tune in this Friday, March twenty seventh, at ten

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Speaker 3: am Pacific at YouTube dot com slash PhD Comics and

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Speaker 3: bring your questions about the universe. Hey, Daniel, are you

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Speaker 3: a fan of virtual reality?

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Speaker 1: I'm still trying to get my head around this reality?

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Speaker 1: What do I need another one for?

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Speaker 4: You?

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Speaker 5: Know?

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Speaker 3: You can? You can use it to walk on the

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Speaker 3: surface of the moon without ever leaving your couch.

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Speaker 1: That does actually sound pretty good. But isn't it expensive?

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Speaker 3: Here it's virtually free.

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Speaker 1: I think that means it's expensive.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I think it is. Can I borrow some cash

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Speaker 3: from you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure, I'll send you some virtual money.

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Speaker 3: I am Horam, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD Comics.

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Speaker 6: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm the co

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Speaker 1: author of our book, We Have No Idea, A Guide

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Speaker 1: to the Unknown Universe.

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Speaker 3: It's available in paperback, hardcover and also virtual reality.

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Speaker 1: You can put on goggles and experience being inside our minds.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, that sounds terrifying.

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Speaker 1: Is that a horror show?

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Speaker 3: But welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe,

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Speaker 3: a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: In which we take mental tours all over the universe

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Speaker 1: and talk about the biggest things, the smallest things, the

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Speaker 1: fastest things, the craziest things in the universe, playing all

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Speaker 1: of them to you in a way we hope you

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Speaker 1: find educational and entertaining.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. We talk about all the real things

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Speaker 3: out there in the universe and the cosmos and the

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Speaker 3: furthest reaches of the galaxies and galaxy clusters, but we

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Speaker 3: also like to talk about things that don't yet exist

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Speaker 3: or may not even exist.

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Speaker 1: That's right. We want to take you inside the minds

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Speaker 1: of scientists and tell you how they think about the universe,

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Speaker 1: what models are going on in their head, and can

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Speaker 1: we distill those in a way that makes sense to you,

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Speaker 1: because we want you to understand sort of the forefront

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Speaker 1: of human thinking about how the universe works.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because there are the things that are around us

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Speaker 3: that we can see and touch and feel and hold

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Speaker 3: in our hands. But there's sort of another universe out

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Speaker 3: there that we can see and that is maybe not

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Speaker 3: quite as real as you might imagine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're always sort of building a universe in

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Speaker 1: our minds to map what's going on outside. Like we

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Speaker 1: can do experiments, we can make measurements, we can see things,

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Speaker 1: and then we try to understand them. And that understanding

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Speaker 1: requires building a model in our head of what we

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Speaker 1: think is happening. And some of those things we can experience.

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Speaker 1: Some of those things we wonder are they real or

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Speaker 1: are they just our imagination.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Daniel and I we wrote a book Daniel

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Speaker 3: called you know, We Have No Idea. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if you know we wrote a book, by.

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Speaker 1: The way, I had No Idea? Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, it's called We Have No Idea, and

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Speaker 3: we talk about all the things we don't know about

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Speaker 3: the universe, all the unanswered questions out there. To those

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Speaker 3: of you listening, please check it out if you are interested.

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Speaker 3: But I was sort of surprised to get today's topic

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Speaker 3: in an email from me this morning, because I don't

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Speaker 3: think we covered this topic in that book.

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Speaker 1: No, this is a really tricky topic and it really

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Speaker 1: has to do with how physicists think about particles, what

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Speaker 1: they mean, are they real, how do they talk to

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Speaker 1: each other, what happens when one electron pushes against another

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Speaker 1: electron and how does that and what happens inside the

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Speaker 1: mind of a physicist when she thinks about that.

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Speaker 3: So this topic that we're going to talk about today,

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Speaker 3: was it just to maybe extreme for our book? What

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Speaker 3: did you think? Why didn't we talk about it in

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Speaker 3: our fun and interesting book now available for purchase.

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Speaker 1: Well, we totally could have. And you know, in the

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Speaker 1: book we have to make some pretty hard choices about

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Speaker 1: what topics to cover. We talked about what is space

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Speaker 1: and what is time? And what is matter? And how

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Speaker 1: will the universe end? And we could have gone on

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Speaker 1: forever and talked about all the things that we don't

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Speaker 1: understand about the universe. It's a pretty long list, but

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Speaker 1: we have to make some choices.

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Speaker 3: I see, the book wasn't called we have lots of

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Speaker 3: no ideas.

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Speaker 1: We have absolutely zero ideas about a lot of things.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, so today's tweet is pretty interesting because I

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Speaker 3: think everyone has heard of particles. I mean, we all

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Speaker 3: know that we are made out of molecules and atoms,

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Speaker 3: and atoms are made out of particles, and the form

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Speaker 3: the basis of for matter in all of the universe,

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Speaker 3: but I think maybe not a lot of people have

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Speaker 3: heard about this particular type of particle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a concept that people talk about when

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Speaker 1: they think about empty space and particles popping in and

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Speaker 1: out of the vacuum, And it's a topic that's really

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Speaker 1: important for thinking about forces and how things push and

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Speaker 1: pull against each other and how that like actually works

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Speaker 1: at the microscopic level. So it's a really important concept

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Speaker 1: in particle physics. But it's sort of slippery to get

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Speaker 1: your head around. But recently some listeners wrote in and

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Speaker 1: asked us to explain this.

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Speaker 3: So on the podcast, we'll be asking the question what

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Speaker 3: is a virtual particle?

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Speaker 1: Is it a particle wearing virtual reality goggles? Is it

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Speaker 1: one particle imagining another particle?

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Speaker 3: Is it a virtuous particle who has a Stanza for

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Speaker 3: its principles?

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Speaker 1: These particles all follow rules. Actually, that's a really good

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Speaker 1: point because there's a lot of sort of pop science

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Speaker 1: misinformation about virtual particles. People say, oh, virtual particles don't

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Speaker 1: follow the laws of physics. But they do. They follow

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Speaker 1: the laws of physics absolutely, just like all the other particles.

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Speaker 1: And as far as we know, everything in our real universe.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, I like, how you associate virtue with following the rules.

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Speaker 3: It's say, some deep psychological things going on there.

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Speaker 1: Daniel today on the podcast Therapy of Daniel.

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Speaker 3: How are you feeling step virtually good?

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Speaker 1: Particularly virtual?

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Speaker 3: Oh particular? Well, so it's an interesting topic. I have

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Speaker 3: to say, I've never heard of these virtual particles. I

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Speaker 3: guess because they're virtual. Is that part of what we're

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Speaker 3: going to talk about today?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit.

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Speaker 3: They're not real. Are they not real?

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Speaker 1: Well, they are real, they're just not really particles. They're

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Speaker 1: a thing that's out there in the universe. They're responsible

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Speaker 1: for important physical effects that we can see, but we

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Speaker 1: can never see them directly. So one way to think

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Speaker 1: about them is that there's sort of a calculational tool

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Speaker 1: in our minds, a way that we think about what's

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Speaker 1: happening out there in the universe, but not something that

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Speaker 1: we can ever observe directly, sort of like we think

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Speaker 1: about quantum mechanical wave functions. We never observe the wave

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Speaker 1: function itself. We only observe its consequences, its influence on things.

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Speaker 1: But it's important for us to predict those those experiments,

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Speaker 1: to predict those consequences that we can use that in

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Speaker 1: our calculations.

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Speaker 3: All right, well let's get let's get into it here today.

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Speaker 3: But first we were wondering, as usual, how many people

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Speaker 3: out there knew what a virtual particle was.

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Speaker 1: So I walked around campus that you see Irvine, and

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Speaker 1: I ask people this kind of crazy as a terror question.

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Speaker 3: So before you hear these answers, think about it for

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Speaker 3: a second. If someone asked you on this tread, what

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Speaker 3: is a virtual particle? What would you answer? Here's what

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Speaker 3: people had to say, not in the slightest.

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Speaker 5: An imaginary particle Houston light theories or something like that.

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Speaker 5: A virtual state is a state, kind of a transitory

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Speaker 5: state where if you're going to do like a two

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Speaker 5: photon excitation, it's that state in the middle that is

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Speaker 5: a virtual state where it's not really you can't describe

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Speaker 5: I can't describe it very well.

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Speaker 3: I'm not into physics.

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Speaker 5: That's That's the best I can do on that one.

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Speaker 3: It's a particle of matter. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Something that's made up based on technology.

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Speaker 3: Maybe all right, Virtually no one said yes.

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Speaker 1: There was some creative answers, though. I really like the

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Speaker 1: person that said something that's made up based on technology.

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Speaker 1: That sounds pretty good. I wish I could use technology

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Speaker 1: to create new particles. That's sort of my job.

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Speaker 3: Isn't that what you do? Did you create new particles?

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm using

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Speaker 1: a lot of technology and spending a lot of government money.

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Speaker 3: But instead you're here recording a podcast. Don't tell anybody,

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Speaker 3: that's right. Nobody knows about this, Daniel. Don't worry. But

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Speaker 3: you know, only a few hundred thousand people.

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Speaker 1: In my twenty years of searching for new particles, I've

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Speaker 1: never really found one. So I'm using technology to try

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Speaker 1: to find new particles. I just haven't been successful yet.

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Speaker 3: You're like, forget particles. I'm just gonna have a party.

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Speaker 1: It's a virtually easier But you know, this wasn't too surprising.

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Speaker 1: It's a sort of esoteric topic. And I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of people know why virtual particles are important without

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Speaker 1: knowing the concept itself. So I think you'll find that

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Speaker 1: the things we talk about the role virtual particles play

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Speaker 1: will be familiar to a lot more people than actually

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Speaker 1: know what virtual particles are and can explain it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see, it's not a crazy concept. It's just

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Speaker 3: maybe kind of a naming convention or sort of like

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Speaker 3: how physicists see some of these particles.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely.

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Speaker 3: All right, well let's get into it, Daniel. What is

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Speaker 3: a virtual particle and why is it called virtual? And

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Speaker 3: is it not real?

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Speaker 1: Well? I think first let's get a clear picture for

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Speaker 1: like what is what do we mean by a particle

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Speaker 1: and a real particle, Because as you talked about earlier,

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Speaker 1: like we're made of stuff. I made a stuff, You're

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Speaker 1: made of stuff. We think when we are real, I imagine

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Speaker 1: I'm real, and we think that we're made of particles.

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Speaker 1: And those particles have an existence. They like stick around,

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Speaker 1: they have persistence, they can move through space, all this

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, and we feel some stantial and so

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Speaker 1: you and I we are made of real particles. But

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Speaker 1: those particles, they're not like a little battle of stuff,

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Speaker 1: and they're not like a tiny dot. Right, it's not

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Speaker 1: like we're built out of little tinker toys. As we've

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Speaker 1: talked about in the podcast several times, each of these

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Speaker 1: particles should be seen as like a ripple in a

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Speaker 1: quantum field. It's like you have this field that feels

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Speaker 1: space and at some points it has energy and it's vibrating,

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Speaker 1: and that's what each of these particles are.

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Speaker 3: It's like a little perturbation in reality. Kind of.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's a little perturbation in reality. And the key

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Speaker 1: thing to know is that real particles are special perturbations.

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Speaker 1: They're not like any perturbation in the quantum field. Is

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Speaker 1: a part is a real particle there? If that perturbation

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Speaker 1: follows certain rules and has certain behaviors, and has and

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Speaker 1: obeys certain equations, then it's a real particle.

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Speaker 3: You're saying, there are perturbations that are not particles or

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Speaker 3: that don't form particles. There are quantum.

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Speaker 1: Fields, yes, And that's you just gave away the ghosts

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Speaker 1: because some perturbations are real particles and some perturbations are

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Speaker 1: virtual particles. So some small fraction of the perturbations and

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Speaker 1: quantum fields are what make up real particles. That are

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Speaker 1: you and me.

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Speaker 3: I guess my question is what makes a real particle real?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: What makes that perturbation real and special?

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Speaker 1: Well, it can do various things, like it can travel forever. Right,

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Speaker 1: you shoot a real particle through space, it will just

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Speaker 1: keep going until it bounces into something. It has this

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Speaker 1: sort of self sustaining nature to it. It doesn't just

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Speaker 1: like spread out into nothing or cancel itself out, and.

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Speaker 3: It's propagating right through the field. It's not like it's moving.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's I'm a perturbation here and then I'm

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Speaker 3: proturbing the space next to me, and that's what we

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Speaker 3: call moving.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and you need to keep two pictures in

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Speaker 1: your head at once. One is sort of the quantum

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Speaker 1: field theory view, like, think about the whole universe. It's

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Speaker 1: just space filled with quantum fields, and as you say,

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Speaker 1: a particle moving through them, is the wiggle in the

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Speaker 1: field is here? And then the wiggle in the field

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Speaker 1: is there? That wiggle is the thing that's propagating. Is

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Speaker 1: the energy moving. At the same time, you like to

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Speaker 1: associate that will with a particle. You have maybe this

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Speaker 1: image in your head of like a little ball that's

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Speaker 1: moving from here to there. And in fact, if you

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Speaker 1: shoot an electron out of an electron gun, that's sort

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Speaker 1: of what you imagine. The most mathematically accurate way to

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Speaker 1: think about it is in terms of a little ripple

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Speaker 1: in the field that's moving through the field. But you

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Speaker 1: like to associate that with a real electron because it

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Speaker 1: has properties like mass and it can fly forever. If

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Speaker 1: it doesn't touch anything and that and that's a real

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Speaker 1: particle because it satisfies various rules, like it has a

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Speaker 1: specific mass and it's kinetic energy. Makes sense, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can interpret that ripple as a particle.

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Speaker 3: Did you have to do with like the shape of

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Speaker 3: it or yes? Around what makes it special? Is it

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Speaker 3: just like a set of conditions that made it as

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Speaker 3: special or there's something about the combination of things that

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Speaker 3: went into it that caused ripple to be especially in

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Speaker 3: a like the shape of it.

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Speaker 1: It has a lot to do with how it was made.

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Speaker 1: And you can imagine, for example, a guitar string. Take

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Speaker 1: a guitar string. If you pluck it carefully, it has

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Speaker 1: various modes that it likes to wiggle at right, and

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Speaker 1: those are the various notes of the guitar string. And

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Speaker 1: you can, you know, make this string shorter or longer

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Speaker 1: to change those modes. But just for like an open string,

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Speaker 1: you play it, it makes it it likes to play

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Speaker 1: it at a certain frequency. But you could also do

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Speaker 1: other things on that string that aren't like a nice oscillation.

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Speaker 1: You know, if your toddler comes in the room and

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Speaker 1: hits your guitar with a something crazy, it doesn't make

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Speaker 1: a nice sound. So you can imagine the difference between

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Speaker 1: like a careful, clean plucking of the string that sends

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Speaker 1: one well behaved wave propagating down the string and a

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Speaker 1: sort of chaotic tumble of ripples that don't that can't

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Speaker 1: be interpreted the same way.

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Speaker 3: And this is because you're saying quantum feels can be

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Speaker 3: disturbed in any number of ways. Yes, but like if

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Speaker 3: you disturb it just right, it'll create this kind of

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Speaker 3: like perfect self sustaining, you know, bumping it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and precisely. And the thing that it has that

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Speaker 1: has a definite mass. So an electron always has an

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Speaker 1: electron's mass and it moves through the universe always having

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Speaker 1: the same mass. And so a real particle something that

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Speaker 1: has a definite mass that has that stuff to it.

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Speaker 1: That's the thing that makes it real, that it has

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Speaker 1: a specific mass, and you can interpret things about it

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Speaker 1: that we're familiar with. Right. You like to think, well,

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Speaker 1: things have energy, like kinetic energy. A real particle has

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Speaker 1: a positive kinetic energy. That makes sense. Later when we

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Speaker 1: talk about virtual particles, you'll see that they don't obey

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Speaker 1: these same rules. They can't be interpreted in the same way.

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Speaker 1: There's still ribbles in the quantum field, but they're not nice,

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Speaker 1: clean ripples that follow these rules.

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Speaker 3: They're not that virtuous.

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Speaker 1: I don't make any judgments. I'm a particle physicist. All

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Speaker 1: particles are welcome in my.

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Speaker 3: Mind, except the ones that break rules. Apparently, well, they

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Speaker 3: don't break particle, they don't break the rules. It's a category, right.

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Speaker 3: These are these that you know satis by some restrictions

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Speaker 3: we call those. Really they do certain things, it's just

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Speaker 3: a label in our minds. It's a distinction in our head.

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Speaker 3: Some of them have a mass that sticks around forever,

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Speaker 3: and and you know and follow.

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Speaker 1: These these I guess they are rules. Yes, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to avoid saying that, but you're right.

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Speaker 3: I do like rules, afford it. We'd do nothing without rules.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, let's get into then, what are virtual

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Speaker 3: particles and whether are not they're real or whether you

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Speaker 3: can only see them on a VR headset. But first,

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Speaker 3: let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 3: All right, Daniel, we're talking about virtual particles, and you're

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Speaker 3: saying that a real particle is like a pertovation in

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Speaker 3: a quantum field which surrounds us all around. But it's

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Speaker 3: like a perfect pertovation. That's what a real particle is.

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Speaker 3: It's like something that somehow the field really likes and

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Speaker 3: doesn't just kind of like destroys or dissipates.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are lots of different kinds of perturbations, and

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Speaker 1: some of them satisfy additional constraints, some of them satisfy

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Speaker 1: are a subset of them also satisfy some equations, some

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Speaker 1: wave equations that tell us about how they move, and

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Speaker 1: those real part of the.

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Speaker 3: Universe likes them. They're like, hey, I like this sound,

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Speaker 3: I like this note. I'm just gonna let it keep

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Speaker 3: on going.

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Speaker 1: You're speaking for the universe, now, do that's a bit presumptuous? Maybe?

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Speaker 1: The universe likes the other kind of particles. It thinks

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Speaker 1: the real particles are like boring rule followers.

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Speaker 3: Oh I see, well, somehow it allows these, the real particles,

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Speaker 3: to be a special right, Yes, it's sort of like them.

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Speaker 1: Well, the real particles, the real particles can do something

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Speaker 1: that virtual particles can't. But virtual particles can do lots

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Speaker 1: of things real particles can't.

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Speaker 3: So wait, what can real particles do that virtuals can't.

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Speaker 1: Well, real particles can propagate across the universe. They have

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Speaker 1: a fixed mass, and that carries them sort of through space.

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Speaker 3: You're saying forever. Nothing, They don't degrade.

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Speaker 1: They don't degrade. Like you look up at the sky

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Speaker 1: and a photon hits your eye from a far away star.

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Speaker 1: That's a real photon. It's propagated through space and it

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Speaker 1: could have gone another billion light years if your eye

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Speaker 1: hadn't blocked it. So, yeah, these things can travel forever.

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Speaker 3: But there are real particles also that don't last, Like,

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Speaker 3: don't were you telling me that some of the higher

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Speaker 3: energy particles, like the you know, some of these heavy quarks,

439
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 3: they at some point they break apart.

440
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: Yes, higher mass particles are unstable, but they're still real.

441
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: They are real particles, but they can decay into lower

442
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 1: mass particles. So not every particle has an infinite lifetime

443
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,360
Speaker 1: like an electron or a photon. But they are still real.

444
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 1: You can interact with them, you can see them, they

445
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: can propagate through space.

446
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 3: All right, Well, then let's get into what a virtual

447
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 3: particle is. So I guess it means it's not a

448
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 3: real particle. Yeah, it's not a not a clean ripple.

449
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 1: It's like everything else, you know, it's any other kind

450
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: of disturbance in the quantum field, right, And it's like

451
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 1: a transfer of energy from one place to another in

452
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 1: the field. I mean, that's what the disturbance is. But

453
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: it's not something you can coalesce together and say, oh,

454
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: this is a nice little packet of energy that moves

455
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: in a tight way through the field and will stay

456
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: that way. It like diffuses out, it spreads out, it

457
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: fades away pretty quickly.

458
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: Wait, so it's possible for feels to be disturbed, not

459
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 3: in particles.

460
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: It's possible for feel to be disturbed in a way

461
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: that makes a real particle. It's also possible for fields

462
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: to be disturbed in a way that doesn't make a

463
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: real particle. What do we call that? We call that

464
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: a virtual particle.

465
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: Do they break sort of the rule of quantum mechanics,

466
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 3: like the minimum amount of energy and things like that, Like,

467
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 3: is it possible to have a ripple that's smaller than

468
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 3: an electron? For example, you have.

469
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: Ripples in the electron field that don't have the mass

470
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: of an electron. Yes, but they're not breaking any of

471
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 1: the rules, This says a common misunderstanding. They follow the

472
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: rules of physics, but you know those rules have fuzziness

473
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 1: in them. So, for example, if you do something in

474
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 1: a very short amount of time, then the energy these

475
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: particles is very uncertain because there's an uncertainty relationship between

476
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: time and energy, like there is between momentum and space,

477
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: and so there are a lot of things they can

478
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: do that seem like they're breaking the rules, but isn't actually.

479
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: Well, wait, so you can't have a ripple in that's

480
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 3: smaller than an electron.

481
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: Then you can have a ripple in the electron field

482
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't correspond to one real electron, smaller it's a

483
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 1: smaller ripple than one real electron. You might be thinking,

484
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 1: hold on the field is supposed to be quantized, and

485
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, but that applies to real particles and

486
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 1: in the case of virtual part.

487
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 3: And you just broke over in my head, Daniell. All

488
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 3: this time I thought it was like a fundamental rule

489
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 3: of the universe that quantum fields can't ripple with anything

490
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 3: smaller than the quantum particles. But you're saying they can't.

491
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: They're just not real.

492
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 1: Those are different.

493
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 3: It's just not sustainable.

494
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: They're not sustainable ripples. Yeah, and you know the thing

495
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: you're talking about are self sustaining. Real particles create one,

496
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: you can create two, you can create three. You can't

497
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: contain two and a half. Right there, there's no self

498
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: sustaining mode. They can do that. But if you're gonna

499
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: have chaotic fluctuations of the field, then you can have

500
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 1: all sorts of crazy stuff. And so yeah, that releases

501
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: you from a lot of those requirements.

502
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: Okay, And these rippled you're saying they don't propagate, or

503
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 3: they do propagate.

504
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: They propagate, but they don't propagate as far they don't

505
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: hold themselves together, and so they don't stain themselves. They

506
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: sort of just like spread out in diffuse and eventually

507
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: they sort of cancel themselves out.

508
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 3: What do you mean what happens to them, They they

509
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 3: like separate, they become you know, inchurrent or.

510
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: Well, they're very short lived, they're transient. And so for example,

511
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: a virtual particle might be like a little blob of

512
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: energy that one electron sends to another electron to push

513
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: it away, Like two electrons they push each other apart. Right,

514
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: how does that happen, Well, it happens through ripples in

515
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: the electromagnetic field. And you can that's not really a photon.

516
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: Like it's not a flash of light that goes between

517
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: the electrons to push them apart. But there is a

518
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 1: transfer of energy, a transfer of momentum, and that you

519
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: can associate with a particle. You say, oh, that's like

520
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: a virtual photon.

521
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 3: Wait, you're saying that when an electron pushes another electron

522
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: because they're both negative charge. I thought they always use photons.

523
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: You're saying that doesn't happen through photons.

524
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: They do, But it's a virtual photon. It's not a

525
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: real photon. It's not a photon that you could like

526
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: see with your eye. It's a virtual, short lived photon,

527
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: not a photon that could propagate across the universe and

528
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: hit another star.

529
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 3: That's a special photon, but there's non special photons.

530
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: Yes, real photons are special photons in jorgez universe, though

531
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: I love all particles equally, But there are two kinds

532
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: of particles. There's a real particles that can propagate through

533
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,359
Speaker 1: the universe forever without interacting, and then there are these transient,

534
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 1: short lived virtual particles that don't that. You know, we

535
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: could argue about whether they really are particles, but we

536
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: call them virtual particles.

537
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: I feel like it'd be like telling you your two kids.

538
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: I think one of you is real, one of you

539
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 3: is not, but I think you're both special to me.

540
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: Well you both.

541
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: If one of your kids only lasts for ten to

542
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: the mind as twenty three seconds, you're not even gonna

543
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 1: be able to finish that sentence.

544
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: Oh man, Well, okay, So when an electron pushes another electron,

545
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 3: they're not interchanging photons, they're interchanging virtuals in the field

546
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 3: that are like photons, but not photons.

547
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: They're not real photons, they are virtual photons. And when

548
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: we draw little fiemin diagrams to describe this between physicists,

549
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: we draw wiggly line just like a photon, but that photon,

550
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 1: you know, it is created inside the interaction, it's emitted

551
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: and then absorbed. It's never seen externally, like you never

552
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: see that. Nobody says, oh, look a little saw a

553
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: flash of light that only exists between the two electrons.

554
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: And so these virtual particles are not ever directly observed.

555
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: They're just sort of used in our calculation and inferred.

556
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 3: Oh I see, but could someone intercept them? You know,

557
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 3: like let's say when an electron is pushing another electron

558
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 3: and some of the another electron sweeps in in between,

559
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: would they be able to catch that photon and say, yes,

560
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 3: there was a photon here.

561
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's going to blow your mind because then

562
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: the photon becomes real.

563
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 3: Then it becomes real.

564
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: Then it becomes real, and you might ask, well, how

565
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: does it know? Right? Well, remember in quantum mechanics, there's

566
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: no like propagation. It's not like this is a thing

567
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: which goes somewhere. It goes from here to there. If

568
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: you have an initial state and a final state, your

569
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: initial state is like an electron is flying off, and

570
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: the final state is some photon from that electron is

571
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: now observed by our camera. All the possible things that

572
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: could explain that sort of can happen. All at once, right,

573
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: and only some of them survive. And so if there's

574
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: a camera there to observe it, then the virtual options disappear,

575
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: they can't exist anymore. But if there's not a camera

576
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: there to observe it, then they can interact in sort

577
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: of its unobserved state with other electrons and push them

578
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: along and stay a virtual particle.

579
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: I totally understood that virtually my VR headset here, all right.

580
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: It sort of sounds like it's one of these quantum

581
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: mechanical things where there's sort of virtual until you open

582
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 3: the box.

583
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: Kind Of, yes, they're virtual until you open the box.

584
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: And if you open the box and interact with them,

585
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: then only real particles can satisfy that set of constraints,

586
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: and so then the virtual particles sort of never happened.

587
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: And if you're worried about, like you know, causality there,

588
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, the whole interaction is not like a flowing

589
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: in time in that same way. The whole interaction just

590
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: sort of understood is one thing, you know, Like there's

591
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: this emission and absorption, and we're understanding this whole sort

592
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: of process in terms of one calculation, and we think

593
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: about all the ways that it can happen simultaneously. Only

594
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: some of those survive based on what the constraints are

595
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: when you open the box. When you open the box, Yeah.

596
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: All right, Well tell me you were saying the virtual

597
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 3: particles break rules. So what are some of the rules

598
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: that virtual particles can break?

599
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: Right? So they don't violate like deep laws of physics,

600
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: but they can do things that real particles can't do.

601
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: For example, if you try to interpret these wiggles in

602
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: the quantum fields as a particle, you get weird answers.

603
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: Like you do the calculations to get what's the kinetic

604
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: energy of this thing?

605
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 3: Well, it can be negative negative kinetic energy.

606
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: Negative kinetic energy, and that's weird if you're used to

607
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: thinking about kinetic energy is like energy of motion, because

608
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: like energy of motion, no matter which direction you're going,

609
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: is always positive. Right, there's a V squared in there,

610
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: so any velocity gives you positive energy. But in physics

611
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: we calculate this energy, you know, as a relationship between

612
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: mass and momentum, and it gets wonky because it's not

613
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: like an individual, localized little particle that's moving through space

614
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: and the way you're familiar with. It's like this weird disturbance,

615
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: and you're trying to force this sort of particle view

616
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: onto it, and it doesn't quite work.

617
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: It's like a little void of energy almost.

618
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: It's sort of like you're asking an inappropriate question and

619
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: so you get a nonsense answer.

620
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, it's like a it's like a a wiggle,

621
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: you know, and that wiggle can give you weird, weird

622
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: answers when you try to measure it.

623
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're not measuring the energy. You're like, well,

624
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: here's the wiggle. If I sort of try to squeeze

625
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: this into the particle framework and then ask what would

626
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: be the energy if this was a particle, you get

627
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: sort of a nonsense answer, you know, like if you

628
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: asked how popular would Daniel be if he was a

629
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: famous movie star? But you're like, well, that's nonsense. Is

630
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: no way he'd be a famous movie star, so he'd

631
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: be like negative popular or something. And the other thing

632
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: is that these virtual particles aren't restricted to have the

633
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: same mass as the particles you're familiar with, Like, you know,

634
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: the photon is no mass. Photons that hate your eye

635
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: from stars very very far away, they have no mass

636
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: because those are real photons. But virtual photons can have mass.

637
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 3: A special disturbance in the electromagnetic field can have mass.

638
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it can carry some mass with it.

639
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 3: And where does it carry it that the other photons

640
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 3: don't have room for?

641
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: In its back pocket? Of course? I mean where do

642
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: you carry your mass? Yeah, that's where all mind seeds ago.

643
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: It's sort of just another way to interpret this in

644
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 1: the light of a particle. It sort of breaks one

645
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: of those rules. And that's actually the thing that distinguishes

646
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: a virtual particle from a real particle. A real particle

647
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: is a little packet of energy that has definite mass

648
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: and propagates forever, and the virtual particle doesn't have that

649
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: definite mass. It can have high mass, it can have

650
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: low mass. For a photon, it can have non zero mass.

651
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 3: You can does that mean that the photon is going

652
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: slower than the speed of light? So virtual particles can

653
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 3: go slower than the speed of light.

654
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: Well, all the information transfer in the electromagnetic field always

655
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: happens at the speed of light. But when you talk

656
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: about the speed of a particle, you usually want to

657
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 1: define it in terms of like how fast is this

658
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: packet moving? And in terms of the virtual particle, it's

659
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: like more diffuse. It's like spreading out everywhere, and so

660
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure it makes sense to define the

661
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: speed of a virtual particle.

662
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like it's getting into this weird quantum realm.

663
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's exactly the problem is that we want

664
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: to interpret things happening on the microscopic scale in terms

665
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: of things we're familiar with, in terms of things we know,

666
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: and so we ask these questions like what is its mass?

667
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: What is its kinetic energy? But those don't those are

668
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: not always appropriate questions. If you ask where is the

669
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: electron and where's it going? You know that doesn't really

670
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: always have a satisfactory answer, and so virtual particles are

671
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: less satisfactory than real particles. They have like fewer answers

672
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: to cough up.

673
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: All right, let's get into the question of whether or

674
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: not they're actually real. Can something be virtual and real

675
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: at the same time? But first, let's take a quick break.

676
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth,

677
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

678
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,200
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679
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,840
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680
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,160
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681
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

682
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

683
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

684
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

685
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,920
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686
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,920
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687
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,720
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688
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689
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,759
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690
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,840
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691
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692
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693
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Speaker 3: All right, Daniel, So we've defined virtual particles as being

717
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 3: the non particle wiggles in the quantum fields of the universe.

718
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 3: But are they actually real? Can we say that they're real?

719
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: If it sounds like you're saying they're not real, that's

720
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 3: why you call them virtual?

721
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they're not real in the sense that we

722
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: define them, right. Particle physicists have a very specific definition

723
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: of what real is. You know, when you say real,

724
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: you mean like it actually exists. It's out there in

725
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: that sense. Absolutely, virtual particles are real. But you know,

726
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: we took this word real and we redefined it to

727
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: mean it has a specific mass, it can propagate infinitely

728
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 1: through its quantum field.

729
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, they exist, but they're just not real particles.

730
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 3: It's like a you have to keep the two words together.

731
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not real the capital are, I guess, or

732
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: if they're not physics real you know, or like real

733
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: or whatever you would call it. But they have real

734
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: but they have actual effects on the universe. You know,

735
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: we talk about empty space, but we know that space

736
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: has energy in it, and that energy can be converted

737
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: into short lived virtual particles. You have energy.

738
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: It's kind of like saying like it'd be different if

739
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 3: I say Daniel is not real. Then if I say

740
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: Daniel is not a real movie star, that's perfect technology.

741
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 3: Daniel exists, but he's not a real movie star, just

742
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 3: like these wiggles exist, but they're not real articles.

743
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: That works perfectly, except I'm not even a virtual movie star,

744
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: so you can it breaks down.

745
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 3: That's the whole point of virtual reality.

746
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: Then I'm gonna pop into your movie and then pop

747
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: right back out again.

748
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: All right. So they're they're real, but they're not particles,

749
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: and so why even call them particles? Why even have them?

750
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 3: Why not just call them, you know, squigglies or ripples.

751
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: Because we like to categorize things, and we like to

752
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 1: find connections between things, and so we like to sort

753
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: of say, these real particles and the virtual particles are

754
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: sort of two sides in the same coin, and they are.

755
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: You know, real particles are very closely related to virtual particles.

756
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: It's not like a hard wall you can put between

757
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: them and say they're totally different. Real particles are like

758
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: a special case of virtual particles. And so we call

759
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: them particles because hey, we're particle physicists. Everything's a particle,

760
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: and we just sort of try to categorize them together.

761
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: When you have a hammer, when you have a sixty

762
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 3: billion dollar hammer, everything looks like a particle.

763
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: Everything looks like a particle. And you know, we even

764
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: describe forces in terms of particles. We like to think

765
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 1: about electromagnetism and the strong force and the weak force

766
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 1: operating in terms of particles, and that can be confusing

767
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: sometimes if you try to think about it like microscopically,

768
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: how can particles be responsible for forces?

769
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 3: All forces are done through virtual particles.

770
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: All the forces that we can describe quantum mechanically, like gravitation,

771
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: we still don't know, But all those quantum mechanical forces, yeah,

772
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: they're described using virtual particles. And the way you might

773
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: have heard it described is like one electron comes along

774
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: and pushes on the other electron by throwing a photon

775
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:42,959
Speaker 1: at it.

776
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 3: But it's actually throwing a virtual photon.

777
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: It's a virtual wiggle in the field, and it's not

778
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 1: thrown from one to the other. Right, It's not something

779
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: that's moving and flying in a well defined way through space.

780
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: It's a little disturbance in.

781
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 3: The field that's that's pushing on the other electron.

782
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a key thing to understand, because fields can

783
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: do more than just push. Right, if you and I

784
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: are throwing a ball back and forth, all we can

785
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: do is push each other. I can't throw the ball

786
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: at you and then attract you somehow. That doesn't make

787
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: any sense. I'm transferring momentum to you and pushing you away,

788
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: so I can't throw a ball at you with negative momentum.

789
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: So that's why that analogy breaks down, because real forces,

790
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: like electromagnetism, they're also responsible for electrons attracting to protons, Yeah, pulling,

791
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: it's the same deal. So to understand how that works

792
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: in terms of virtual particles, you have to let go

793
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: of particles as these little balls that were throwing back

794
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: and forth and just think about them in terms of

795
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: like weird ripples. And the key thing to think about

796
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: there is like you are exchanging a virtual photon if

797
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: it has a certain amount of energy to it. Heisenberg

798
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: tells us, if you're well defined in terms of momentum,

799
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: you're not well defined in terms of location. So that particle,

800
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: that virtual photon that's being passed back and forth, doesn't

801
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: really exist anywhere. It sort of exists every where. It's

802
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: like if its momentum is very specific, then its location

803
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: is flat. It's like can exist through the whole universe.

804
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 3: So like if I have a magnet, Let's say I'm

805
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: holding two magnets here in the table in front of me,

806
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 3: and you know, I try to bring them together, and

807
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: they're pushing each other apart these magnets. Before I was

808
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 3: thinking like, maybe they're swapping photons so that they can

809
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: repel each other, but really they're not. They're just sort

810
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 3: of like just sort of like perturbing each other's fields.

811
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: Yes, they're perturbing each other's fields and transmitting energy back

812
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: and forth, but not in the sense of like little

813
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: particles that are actually flying back and forth like real particles.

814
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: Like you can't put a piece of cardboard between two

815
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 1: magnets to block the magnetism, right, And you can be like, well, look,

816
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: photons can't get through my cardboard, so how can magnetism

817
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: get through? Right? The reason is that electromagnetic fields definitely

818
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: can get through your cardboard, right, You can hear a

819
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: radio through cardboard.

820
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 3: More like you're bending the fields around you, and that's

821
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 3: what's pushing the other one.

822
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's just not in a way that you

823
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: can characterize as a little ball, as like a little

824
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: self propagating, nice package of field. And so that's how

825
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: these things interact. They interact with the fields, and you can,

826
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 1: if you want, interpret those in terms of virtual particles.

827
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 1: It's sort of like looser definition of what a particle

828
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: is than just the narrow definition of what real particles are.

829
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 3: You sort of expanded the definition to include more more

830
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 3: of these weird things.

831
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, by relaxing some of the rules, say, you don't

832
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: have to have the right mass, you don't have to

833
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: have a kinetic energy. That makes sense, it's a ripple

834
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: in the field.

835
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: Let you don't have to be a particle to be

836
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 3: a particle, that's what you're saying.

837
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 1: And you could also just get rid of the particle

838
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: picture entirely, be like, you know what, that doesn't make

839
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: any sense to me. I'm just going to think about

840
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: the fields and you can do that. It's just it's

841
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: really hard because calculations in field theory are very, very complicated.

842
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: And so to simplify it, Fineman introduced this idea. He said, well,

843
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: let's just think about it in terms of like the

844
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: simplest interaction, and he drew these diagrams that showed like, well,

845
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: if it was exchanging one thing you would call a particle,

846
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: then it would look like this. And then let's think

847
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: about it in terms of the second simplest and the

848
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: third simplest, and then they just ignore everything else. So

849
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: He developed this framework for approximating quantum field theory calculations

850
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: by using these like number of virtual particles. The most

851
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: likely thing to happen is one virtual particle, the second

852
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: most likeliest two, and then three, and as you go on,

853
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: there's more and more possibilities, but they get less and

854
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: less likely, so you can ignore them.

855
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 3: It just lets you sort of understand these complex field interactions.

856
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, lets you quickly approximate it and get mostly the

857
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: right answer in a way that sort of makes sense.

858
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: And you know, physics is all about like making sense.

859
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: We know these are the rules of the universe, what

860
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: do they mean to us? Like, this interpretation step is important.

861
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: It's the physics part of it, right, The rest of

862
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: it's sort of mathematics, And it's like, how do we

863
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: use this to build up a picture of the world

864
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: that makes sense to us? And you're always teasing me

865
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: that I like rules, but like that's what physics is.

866
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, we're trying to figure out whether rules are

867
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: and how they limit us, and whether they actually do

868
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: limit us.

869
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 3: All right, cool, Well, I feel my mind virtually blown

870
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 3: a little bit to learn that there are particles that

871
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 3: are not particles. They're very much real, and they very

872
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 3: much kind of make everything work, right, because without virtual

873
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 3: particles you can't have forces, and without forces, nothing happens.

874
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: The universe would be pretty boring without any forces, So

875
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 1: stay tuned for Daniel's future virtual career in the movie

876
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: about virtual particles.

877
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,720
Speaker 3: It's sort of interesting to think that, you know, there's

878
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 3: more to the universe and what we can see and

879
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 3: feel in touch, that there's all this sort of you know,

880
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 3: underlying chaos happening in between what we imagine to be

881
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 3: matter and electrons and quarks.

882
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that always our descriptions of it are lacking, right,

883
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: that we are limited by the way our minds work

884
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: and the way that we think about the universe. We're

885
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: trying to map that onto this crazy, insane chaos that's

886
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: going on on a microscopic level, and it's never completely satisfactory.

887
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: It's always running into contradictions and seeming nonsense. And that's

888
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: because the universe at that scale is weird and alien

889
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 1: and very difficult to translate into sense for the human brain.

890
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: But hey, I think it's worth trying.

891
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: So we hope that made a little bit more sense

892
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 3: to all of you. And then now you know, what

893
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 3: a virtual particle is or what it's not or what

894
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: it is not is.

895
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: Virtually understand it.

896
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 3: So thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. See

897
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 3: you next time.

898
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: Before you still have a question after listening to all

899
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: these explanations, please drop us a line. We'd love to

900
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us at Facebook, Twitter,

901
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or

902
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: email us at Feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. Thanks for listening,

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Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

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