WEBVTT - The Hottest Thing In Energy Storage 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin. Let's do a classic good news bad news top 0:00:24.116 --> 0:00:27.316 to the show. Today. Good news, wind and solar power 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:31.716 are now cheaper than power from fossil fuels. Bad news, 0:00:32.036 --> 0:00:35.116 sometimes the sun goes down and the wind does not blow. 0:00:35.596 --> 0:00:39.396 The energy transition, the shift to carbon free energy, may 0:00:39.396 --> 0:00:42.996 be the most important problem of our time, and the 0:00:43.036 --> 0:00:47.916 most important problem within that problem may be energy storage. 0:00:48.076 --> 0:00:51.676 How to take that sweet, sweet carbon free energy we 0:00:51.756 --> 0:00:54.276 generate when the wind is blowing and the sun is shining, 0:00:54.756 --> 0:00:58.156 and store it for use whenever we want it. We 0:00:58.236 --> 0:01:00.916 do have some ways to store energy for some uses. 0:01:01.396 --> 0:01:04.596 Lithium ion batteries are good for cars, for example, but 0:01:04.716 --> 0:01:07.596 they are way too expensive for lots of use cases. 0:01:07.796 --> 0:01:12.236 Think of factories making energy intensive things like steel or aluminum. 0:01:12.356 --> 0:01:15.276 They use tons of energy, they compete over every last cent, 0:01:15.596 --> 0:01:18.356 and it is nowhere near cost effective for them to 0:01:18.476 --> 0:01:22.636 use lithium ion batteries. So to bring the energy transition 0:01:22.716 --> 0:01:25.276 to industry, we're gonna have to figure out new ways 0:01:25.316 --> 0:01:28.956 to store energy, ways that are not only reliable but 0:01:29.076 --> 0:01:38.956 also very very cheap. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is 0:01:38.956 --> 0:01:41.356 What's Your Problem? The show where I talk to people 0:01:41.436 --> 0:01:45.236 who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today 0:01:45.396 --> 0:01:48.716 is Andrew Panik. He's the co founder and CEO of 0:01:48.756 --> 0:01:52.876 the energy storage company and Torah Energy. Andrew's problem is this, 0:01:53.556 --> 0:01:56.076 how can you store renewable energy in a way that 0:01:56.196 --> 0:02:00.876 is cheap enough and reliable enough to convince giant global 0:02:00.996 --> 0:02:04.596 industries to abandon fossil fuels. Andrew is really into the 0:02:04.756 --> 0:02:10.276 techno economics of the energy transition. Basically, find new technologies 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:13.316 that move us away from burning fossil fuels and that 0:02:13.356 --> 0:02:16.476 make economic sense. He dropped out of Stanford to start 0:02:16.516 --> 0:02:19.716 his first company, and that company helped make big solar 0:02:19.756 --> 0:02:23.236 installations a little bit cheaper. Then he went back to 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:25.996 Stanford to finish college. And he assumed at the time 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:29.236 that there was an energy storage solution on the way, 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:32.356 that lithium ion batteries would just keep getting cheaper and 0:02:32.436 --> 0:02:35.316 cheaper until they were so cheap they'd meet all our 0:02:35.476 --> 0:02:39.396 energy storage needs. Then one day he learned he was wrong. 0:02:40.516 --> 0:02:42.436 Those are some of the best moments in life when 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:44.556 somebody tells you that you're wrong, and you go and 0:02:44.596 --> 0:02:47.636 you reevaluate and you find out, man, I was wrong 0:02:47.676 --> 0:02:49.876 and that person was right. And so this particular moment 0:02:49.916 --> 0:02:56.236 for me was actually speaking with a guy named Matteo Harmio, 0:02:56.836 --> 0:03:00.276 and he was coming out of Tesla's energy business. And 0:03:00.316 --> 0:03:04.036 so Tesla, you know, obviously most famous for making electric vehicles, 0:03:04.156 --> 0:03:08.156 but also has a very strong business putting lithium ion 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:11.516 batteries into stationary energy storage to support the grid. And 0:03:11.596 --> 0:03:13.996 so you know, here I was coming with this hypothesis, Hey, 0:03:14.076 --> 0:03:16.316 lithium mion's going to do it all. And he had 0:03:16.396 --> 0:03:20.356 just left Tesla at that point and essentially said lithium 0:03:20.396 --> 0:03:22.676 he can't, can't do it all. We need something that's 0:03:22.716 --> 0:03:24.236 going to be far cheaper than lithium mine. 0:03:24.356 --> 0:03:26.516 And was he saying, not only are they not cheap 0:03:26.596 --> 0:03:29.916 enough now, but they're not gonna get cheap enough exactly. 0:03:29.956 --> 0:03:31.196 And that was the key point. 0:03:31.316 --> 0:03:32.716 What's the floor on the price? 0:03:33.036 --> 0:03:36.476 The floor in the price really comes from the materials. Eventually, 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:38.676 the cost of lithium in batteries is going to be 0:03:38.676 --> 0:03:42.316 approaching just the cost of the lithium, you know, the copper. 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:44.916 So there's a long way it can still come down, 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:47.476 and we think it will, but that floor is still 0:03:47.516 --> 0:03:50.196 above where it needs to be forevery other just. 0:03:50.196 --> 0:03:52.236 The lithium and the copper. I mean, it won't work 0:03:52.276 --> 0:03:55.076 for a lot of things. It'll be too expensive. Okay, 0:03:55.476 --> 0:03:59.716 So now you've got a problem to solve. You realize, oh, 0:04:00.316 --> 0:04:01.956 lithium mine's not going to do it. What do you do? 0:04:03.076 --> 0:04:05.436 Look at everything under the sun that might be able 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.236 to do it. So we, you know, we, and we 0:04:08.356 --> 0:04:10.116 in this case is myself and one of my two 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:12.796 co founders that started working together around this time. We 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:16.596 started going through every technology that you could imagine that 0:04:16.876 --> 0:04:19.676 could store energy. We looked at hydrogen, we looked at 0:04:19.716 --> 0:04:22.756 compressed air, we looked at gravitational energy storage, various types 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:25.956 of new electrochemical batteries that are not lithium ion that 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:28.596 might be able to store it for cheaper and you know, 0:04:28.636 --> 0:04:30.676 we made sort of toy models of all of these 0:04:30.676 --> 0:04:32.396 things to try and figure out, you know, what the 0:04:32.436 --> 0:04:35.956 cost floors for those technologies would be. And the one 0:04:35.996 --> 0:04:39.156 that really jumped out at us was thermal energy storage. 0:04:39.516 --> 0:04:41.636 We're we're gonna spend the whole rest of the time 0:04:41.676 --> 0:04:44.716 on thermal energy storage. But you rattled off a bunch 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:50.156 of other energy storage technologies that are in use in 0:04:50.236 --> 0:04:53.396 various places or that people are trying, and so can 0:04:53.436 --> 0:04:56.076 you just talk about the sort of broader landscape of 0:04:56.236 --> 0:04:58.436 energy storage for a sec I mean, like what is 0:04:58.476 --> 0:05:01.356 the what's it look like? What seems promising to or 0:05:01.396 --> 0:05:02.156 not promising? 0:05:03.316 --> 0:05:05.516 So you know an example, you know, there are lots 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:08.676 of other electro chemistries, a lot of other different types 0:05:08.716 --> 0:05:10.876 of batteries said are not lithium ion that I think 0:05:10.956 --> 0:05:15.436 are super fascinating, definitely worth people pursuing, and could end 0:05:15.516 --> 0:05:17.556 up being the solution for a lot of these problems. 0:05:17.876 --> 0:05:21.076 Iron I mean the guy, the guy from Tesla who 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:23.556 who told you lithium I wasn't going to get there, right, 0:05:23.556 --> 0:05:25.756 he has like an iron battery company, now right? Is 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:27.036 that that's right? That's right? 0:05:27.596 --> 0:05:31.076 Yeah, yeah, you know, very interesting company doing doing iron. 0:05:31.116 --> 0:05:34.516 Actually there are a few companies doing iron based batteries 0:05:34.516 --> 0:05:35.036 of any sort. 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:37.956 And interestingly, iron is cheaper than lithium. I mean, is 0:05:37.996 --> 0:05:40.436 that the core proposition there or part of it? 0:05:40.596 --> 0:05:42.916 Yeah, that's that's a that's a huge, a huge part 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:45.756 of it. And so a lot of interesting things going 0:05:45.796 --> 0:05:46.236 on there. 0:05:47.276 --> 0:05:47.476 You know. 0:05:47.716 --> 0:05:51.476 An example that we just decided to kill entirely from 0:05:51.516 --> 0:05:54.676 our search was gravitational energy storage. This was one where 0:05:54.716 --> 0:05:58.676 just the energy density was so low that we didn't 0:05:58.676 --> 0:06:01.316 see a future part. There's there's a wonderful te Just. 0:06:01.236 --> 0:06:04.116 To be clear, Gravitational energy storage means when you have 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:08.396 power from whatever, a wind, turbine, move something up, put 0:06:08.436 --> 0:06:11.036 pump water up a hill, and then when you need 0:06:11.156 --> 0:06:14.636 power later, let the water flow down and spin a 0:06:14.676 --> 0:06:16.556 turbine or something that's gravitation. 0:06:16.676 --> 0:06:19.956 Absolutely, absolutely yes, And this is actually one of the 0:06:19.996 --> 0:06:23.156 backbones of our grid today. And this is a great technology, 0:06:23.156 --> 0:06:24.756 but it's one of those things where most of the 0:06:24.756 --> 0:06:26.836 good sites to do that, most of the good places 0:06:26.836 --> 0:06:29.276 where you can put a dam and have two reservoirs 0:06:29.276 --> 0:06:31.556 that are really different in height over just a few 0:06:31.556 --> 0:06:33.516 miles away from each other, like most of their sites 0:06:33.516 --> 0:06:34.196 have already been taken. 0:06:34.636 --> 0:06:36.596 So like a good idea, but not a lot of 0:06:36.676 --> 0:06:38.076 room to do new stuff there. 0:06:38.356 --> 0:06:41.436 Exactly great idea, we kind of tapped out the resource. 0:06:41.636 --> 0:06:45.316 Okay, what seemed like a bad idea. When you're looking 0:06:45.356 --> 0:06:47.916 at different energy storage ideas. 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:50.756 I don't want to speak ill of any particular energy 0:06:50.796 --> 0:06:53.916 storage but I'll just say there's a wide variety and 0:06:53.996 --> 0:06:58.836 even within one broad category, there's often companies that you know, 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:01.236 in our view are taking really great approaches or some 0:07:01.356 --> 0:07:03.116 that are taking approaches that we just sort of scratch 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:05.076 our head and wonder about. 0:07:05.396 --> 0:07:08.996 There. I'm curious, but I respect, I respect your civility. 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:14.316 I appreciate it. So you look at these different technologies 0:07:14.356 --> 0:07:17.876 and you arrive at thermal, which basically means heat, right, 0:07:17.996 --> 0:07:20.396 using energy when you have it to heat something up 0:07:20.436 --> 0:07:23.716 and store energy in the form of heat. So why 0:07:23.716 --> 0:07:24.676 do you land there? 0:07:25.116 --> 0:07:27.676 Yeah, thermal has a few things going for it that 0:07:27.956 --> 0:07:30.836 really caught our attention. The first is that it has 0:07:30.836 --> 0:07:33.476 the potential to have an extremely low cost floor, so 0:07:33.516 --> 0:07:36.036 you can take some of the cheapest materials, most abundant 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:38.316 materials on Earth and get them hot. You don't need 0:07:38.356 --> 0:07:41.276 a lot of complex processing, you don't need any special 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:44.956 metals or fancy materials. It's just stuff getting hot. So 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:47.116 it has the ability to get to really really low cost. 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:49.596 That was the first thing. The second thing was it 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:54.316 had very high energy density, so a relatively small thermal 0:07:54.356 --> 0:07:57.356 battery could store a lot of energy. And it really 0:07:57.356 --> 0:08:01.716 became apparent that there's not one energy storage problem, there's 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:04.276 really two. The first energy storage problem is the one 0:08:04.316 --> 0:08:06.676 that everybody thinks about, which is you have excess wind 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:08.596 and solar at some times you need to store it 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:10.716 some how, and then you need to get it back 0:08:10.756 --> 0:08:13.596 as electricity for the times that you don't have enough electricity. 0:08:13.996 --> 0:08:17.956 But the other storage problem is the one of heat, 0:08:18.396 --> 0:08:21.796 and heat is you know, I would say has been 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.036 historically an underappreciated part of our energy system. We think 0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:27.716 a lot about electricity, but we often don't think as 0:08:27.796 --> 0:08:29.396 much about heat. But it turns out about half of 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:32.396 the energy we use globally is in the form of heat. 0:08:32.676 --> 0:08:34.236 So the kind of heat you're talking about, just to 0:08:34.236 --> 0:08:37.316 be clear, it's not just like making offices or factories 0:08:37.356 --> 0:08:40.516 the right temperature for people, right, it's like wildly intense 0:08:40.556 --> 0:08:44.476 amounts of heat you need to whatever, forge steel or something. Right, 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:49.036 it's like great, big hot industrial kind of heat. Absolutely, 0:08:49.356 --> 0:08:52.556 And fossil fuels are really good at that, right, Like, 0:08:52.636 --> 0:08:54.756 they store an incredible amount of energy. They give you 0:08:54.756 --> 0:08:57.156 a lot of heat whatever you want it, Like, it's 0:08:57.156 --> 0:08:57.756 hard to beat. 0:08:58.716 --> 0:09:01.036 I mean, if fossil fuels weren't great, we wouldn't be 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:04.036 struggling so much to make the energy transition happen on 0:09:04.076 --> 0:09:06.516 the timeframe that we need it to. And so, yeah, 0:09:06.556 --> 0:09:11.116 fossil fuels are generally pretty cheap and they have the 0:09:11.156 --> 0:09:14.476 ability to have that energy on demand. 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:17.716 And these are the kind of commodity industries that are 0:09:18.436 --> 0:09:21.756 fighting over sents. Right. The marginal cost is everything, and 0:09:21.836 --> 0:09:25.036 so if they're going to use something other than fossil fuel, 0:09:25.116 --> 0:09:28.996 it absolutely has to be as cheap and as reliable. 0:09:29.036 --> 0:09:31.756 Exactly, And those two things we always think about as 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:33.836 far as what our customers need. They care about two things. 0:09:33.876 --> 0:09:36.156 They care about the energy being cost effective, and they 0:09:36.156 --> 0:09:38.276 care about the energy being available when they need it. 0:09:39.076 --> 0:09:42.916 So you land on heating up blocks of carbon, right 0:09:42.956 --> 0:09:45.356 of graphite? How do you arrive there? 0:09:46.236 --> 0:09:49.916 Yeah, well, we made a spreadsheet with just every cheap 0:09:49.996 --> 0:09:53.876 material that we could find on Earth and everything from 0:09:53.916 --> 0:09:57.516 just like rocks, you know, just like different types of rocks. 0:09:57.716 --> 0:09:59.596 Let's see, rocks are cheap, rocks. 0:09:59.356 --> 0:10:03.116 Are cheap, super cheap, you know, rocks, sand, bricks of 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:07.876 various sorts. You know, we looked at all sorts of metals. Iron. 0:10:07.956 --> 0:10:11.316 Can you just store it in enough iron or steel. 0:10:11.116 --> 0:10:14.036 Just to heat up iron, to just heat. 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:16.036 Up iron exactly, maybe even to the point that it's 0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:18.876 molten and it's liquid, you know, can you just heat 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:21.916 up liquid iron? So lots and lots of different things there, 0:10:22.236 --> 0:10:23.556 and you know, we tried to look at you know, 0:10:23.596 --> 0:10:26.596 what's the cost, what's the energy density? How much energy 0:10:26.596 --> 0:10:29.396 do you store per amount of material? We looked at, 0:10:29.516 --> 0:10:33.316 are there any you know, safety challenges, corrosion challenges, toxicity, 0:10:33.876 --> 0:10:35.796 all of those sorts of things went into it. 0:10:37.956 --> 0:10:41.036 Andrew and his colleagues eventually decide to use graphite, just 0:10:41.196 --> 0:10:44.436 like what's in a pencil. In a minute, Andrew explains 0:10:44.476 --> 0:10:47.556 why they tried very hard to convince themselves not to 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:59.116 keep going, and then kept going. Anywhay, that's the end 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:01.196 of the ads. Now we're going back to the show. 0:11:02.196 --> 0:11:04.956 So now you've got Now you've got your thing, You've 0:11:04.956 --> 0:11:08.836 got your big idea. Let's heat up graphite. Let's store 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:12.916 in by heating up graphite. Is this the moment when 0:11:12.916 --> 0:11:15.796 you try and knock yourself down where you're like, let's 0:11:15.916 --> 0:11:19.716 let's prove that we're wrong. Which I like that as 0:11:19.836 --> 0:11:22.556 just a way of life. I like that philosophically, I 0:11:22.636 --> 0:11:23.436 like it intellectually. 0:11:23.716 --> 0:11:24.036 Yeah. 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:28.116 Yeah, we went through and we said, before we actually 0:11:28.196 --> 0:11:30.996 start this company, we're going to spend one solid month 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:33.796 looking for every problem that we can find. Is there 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:36.436 any way we can kill this idea? Before we invest 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:39.316 the next decade of our lives into trying to commercialize that. 0:11:39.436 --> 0:11:43.436 And what were some of the most compelling Devil's Advocate 0:11:43.516 --> 0:11:45.956 cases against this company? 0:11:46.556 --> 0:11:49.196 Yeah, so the first one is just can we get 0:11:49.316 --> 0:11:51.956 enough of this stuff and can we do it, you know, 0:11:52.196 --> 0:11:54.716 at a reasonable costs. And what we found really quickly 0:11:54.756 --> 0:11:59.116 there was that the graphite and carbon supply chain is enormous. 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.636 So whatever we were doing for the next decade, even 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:04.316 if we were getting to tear what our scale, was 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:06.756 going to be a rounding error on the size of 0:12:06.756 --> 0:12:08.516 that industry. So that was really important to us. 0:12:08.716 --> 0:12:11.076 Was there anything that almost made you not do it? 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:14.076 Anything where that was uncertain but you decided on balance 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:15.116 it was worth trying anyway. 0:12:16.036 --> 0:12:18.916 The hardest part was how to move the heat? And 0:12:18.996 --> 0:12:21.836 so with this there are two ways you can imagine it. 0:12:21.836 --> 0:12:23.276 You could try to move the graphite, and we actually 0:12:23.276 --> 0:12:25.276 looked at some crazy concepts early on, like could you 0:12:25.316 --> 0:12:26.996 move this hot graphite in some way? 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:31.436 It was like a hot block of carbon exactly, seems 0:12:31.476 --> 0:12:33.476 hard to move, seems like you don't want to be 0:12:33.516 --> 0:12:33.956 moving that. 0:12:34.396 --> 0:12:36.756 We decided we really didn't want to move around these 0:12:36.836 --> 0:12:40.996 hot blocks of carbon or even like carbon, you know, gravel, 0:12:41.156 --> 0:12:42.836 or you know, some other thing that maybe would be 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:46.076 would be easier. It all just ended up being really cluegy. 0:12:46.196 --> 0:12:48.156 The other way that you might do it is find 0:12:48.156 --> 0:12:51.556 a different material that's a liquid that can withstand those 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:55.556 temperatures and that is compatible with graphite, and then pump 0:12:55.636 --> 0:12:59.076 that around. And so that was maybe a little bit 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:03.196 easier to imagine than moving the hot graphite itself, but 0:13:03.276 --> 0:13:05.076 it ended up having a whole host of other problems. 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:07.276 And the solution that we had that we weren't sure 0:13:07.396 --> 0:13:10.196 was going to work at all those light bulb moments 0:13:10.556 --> 0:13:13.996 was when you get stuff really hot, it starts to glow, 0:13:14.316 --> 0:13:18.436 it's emitting light, it's incandescing, and that light itself is 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:21.196 actually carrying a tremendous amount of energy with it. It 0:13:21.236 --> 0:13:24.716 turns out that most heat transfer at high temperatures is 0:13:24.756 --> 0:13:27.716 actually mediated by light, by thermal radiation. 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:30.356 That is not at all intuitive, Right when you think 0:13:30.396 --> 0:13:32.716 of the hot thing, you don't think that it's the 0:13:32.836 --> 0:13:36.396 light that is actually carrying the heat, right, That is 0:13:36.916 --> 0:13:38.596 not the way it feels. 0:13:39.236 --> 0:13:42.676 Yeah, So what that meant was that we could try 0:13:42.676 --> 0:13:45.516 to have a system that didn't use a heat transfer 0:13:45.516 --> 0:13:47.756 fluid that didn't use some liquid we were pumping around. 0:13:48.196 --> 0:13:49.876 If we were able to come up with the right 0:13:50.156 --> 0:13:52.796 geometries and systems to use light to move heat around 0:13:52.796 --> 0:13:57.916 in the system, we could theoretically have this really really simple, reliable, 0:13:58.036 --> 0:14:00.356 nice system. But we weren't sure if there were going 0:14:00.396 --> 0:14:04.356 to be any geometries or system designs that would work 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:07.796 well enough to solve that problem. But we at least 0:14:07.796 --> 0:14:10.476 had a shot with this using light to move the heat. 0:14:10.516 --> 0:14:13.916 So that part seems quite hard still right in this 0:14:14.036 --> 0:14:17.076 universe when you're thinking like will this work? Thinking like, well, 0:14:17.116 --> 0:14:20.156 maybe we could use light as the sort of vector 0:14:20.316 --> 0:14:22.356 to get the heat from the block of graphite to 0:14:22.356 --> 0:14:24.036 where we need it to be. Right like, that sounds 0:14:24.756 --> 0:14:28.236 complicated and hard. It's wildly hot. It's just the idea 0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:31.516 of light as the sort of pipe that sounds hard. 0:14:31.756 --> 0:14:35.276 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very hard to know if 0:14:35.316 --> 0:14:36.796 it would work. So we had to take a little 0:14:36.836 --> 0:14:38.236 bit of a leap of faith at that time that 0:14:38.276 --> 0:14:39.796 we would be able to solve that problem. 0:14:39.956 --> 0:14:42.156 You take the leap of faith, you start the company, 0:14:42.996 --> 0:14:46.356 and where are you now? Have you solved that problem? 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:52.276 Yes, we are very very very happy to say that 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:55.076 it worked out as well or maybe even better than 0:14:55.116 --> 0:14:57.516 we were hoping at the start. The ability to use 0:14:57.596 --> 0:15:00.196 light to move the heat within the system, and it 0:15:00.276 --> 0:15:03.716 really is just you know, clever use of void space 0:15:03.756 --> 0:15:06.196 within the system is the answer. You just need to 0:15:06.236 --> 0:15:09.516 have spots where there isn't carbon so that the light 0:15:09.956 --> 0:15:13.716 from certain areas of the system can travel to another 0:15:13.756 --> 0:15:16.076 area of the system because it's going through that that 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:16.756 empty space. 0:15:16.836 --> 0:15:19.756 I mean, what this might be a bad sort of analogy, 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:22.316 but what it makes me think of as fiber optics, 0:15:22.916 --> 0:15:26.836 where you have basically an empty pipe, right and you're 0:15:26.836 --> 0:15:30.236 flashing light through it and you're sending data as light. 0:15:31.276 --> 0:15:33.796 Yeah, it's not a terrible analogy. I mean, we don't 0:15:33.836 --> 0:15:36.676 have to have any material to kind of carry the 0:15:36.756 --> 0:15:39.836 light in where it's just void space. But it is. 0:15:39.996 --> 0:15:41.676 There are parts of our system that very much look 0:15:41.796 --> 0:15:43.956 like light pipes. It's you know, kind of a long 0:15:44.036 --> 0:15:47.196 void space that allows heat from deep within the system 0:15:47.436 --> 0:15:49.236 to be brought all the way to the surface of 0:15:49.276 --> 0:15:53.316 the system just by light kind of radiating through a cavity. 0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:57.396 Through empty space, through empty space. So where are you now? 0:15:57.436 --> 0:16:00.396 So you have this thing it works, like, does it 0:16:00.436 --> 0:16:01.636 exist in the world for real. 0:16:01.996 --> 0:16:05.796 We started small, We built smaller prototypes, things that were 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:08.076 kind of bench scale. We moved up to stuff that 0:16:08.116 --> 0:16:10.156 you would you know, put in a ware house, and 0:16:10.356 --> 0:16:13.676 now we're actually nearing the completion of construction of our 0:16:13.716 --> 0:16:16.956 first pilot project. And so this is i think something 0:16:16.996 --> 0:16:19.996 that's a little bit bigger than a half shipping container, 0:16:20.316 --> 0:16:23.396 so kind of a big steel box that's filled with 0:16:23.956 --> 0:16:28.756 graphite blocks and then insulation, and that's storing megawatt hours 0:16:29.236 --> 0:16:32.236 of energy in the form of that stored heat. And 0:16:32.596 --> 0:16:35.876 this is going at a customer site in the Central 0:16:35.956 --> 0:16:39.716 Valley of California. The customers well Head Electric, and their 0:16:39.756 --> 0:16:44.476 business is largely to generate both electricity and heat for 0:16:44.756 --> 0:16:48.876 customers in California, and so they're providing us a spot 0:16:48.916 --> 0:16:52.356 to do this deployment. They have a very interesting location 0:16:52.476 --> 0:16:55.276 with a natural gas power plant with lithium ion batteries, 0:16:55.316 --> 0:16:58.036 with a solar farm kind of all co located. So 0:16:58.076 --> 0:17:00.156 it's a very interesting energy playground where you can see, 0:17:00.156 --> 0:17:01.716 you how are these things going to have to work 0:17:01.756 --> 0:17:05.036 together in the future. And that's where our deployment is today. 0:17:05.156 --> 0:17:09.836 And is it running. Is it super hot right now 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:11.636 in Fresno or wherever it is. 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:14.276 It is not running yet but will be in the 0:17:14.276 --> 0:17:16.756 next few weeks. It's it's just about finished construction and 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:19.876 the team we are all so excited to be flipping 0:17:19.876 --> 0:17:21.836 the switch on that a few weeks from now because 0:17:21.836 --> 0:17:23.876 it's been an incredible amount of work and a very 0:17:23.916 --> 0:17:24.956 fun project for all of us. 0:17:25.316 --> 0:17:27.396 So tell me if it works. What's going to happen 0:17:27.436 --> 0:17:28.716 when you flip the switch? 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:34.276 Hopefully not a lot. Yeah, it's always good when there 0:17:34.276 --> 0:17:36.876 aren't too many surprises when you turn things on, So 0:17:37.116 --> 0:17:39.596 you know, largely what's going to happen is you're going 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:43.036 to be sending electricity into the box that's going to 0:17:43.116 --> 0:17:47.116 be heating up relatively slowly, heating up this graphite because 0:17:47.156 --> 0:17:49.836 the graphite can store so much energy. Even when we're 0:17:49.876 --> 0:17:51.996 putting in lots and lots of energy, you know, the 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:55.476 temperature will slowly rise over ten twenty hours. 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:56.836 And at some point it gets so hot that it's 0:17:56.876 --> 0:18:00.116 glowing right like it's so like orange. I mean, is 0:18:00.156 --> 0:18:02.396 it like like you know what a fire is really hot? 0:18:02.436 --> 0:18:03.396 Does it? What does it look like? 0:18:04.516 --> 0:18:06.596 It will be hotter than that? 0:18:06.676 --> 0:18:09.956 Well, sure it'll be, yeah, but what is it? What's 0:18:09.956 --> 0:18:10.476 it look like? 0:18:11.836 --> 0:18:14.876 It really looks white hot. If you've ever seen a 0:18:14.916 --> 0:18:17.396 picture of like a steel mill or something like that 0:18:17.436 --> 0:18:21.076 with the steel ribbon being poured out of something, it's 0:18:21.076 --> 0:18:23.916 that sort of like almost blinding, you know, white, like 0:18:24.436 --> 0:18:25.236 very very bright. 0:18:25.596 --> 0:18:29.796 And then so you'll have that stored energy in the 0:18:29.836 --> 0:18:32.756 form of heat, and then what will happen to it. 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:36.796 In the future we'll be selling that heat, But right 0:18:36.836 --> 0:18:38.796 now we're just going to be taking that heat out 0:18:38.836 --> 0:18:40.556 and making sure that we can hit all of the 0:18:40.556 --> 0:18:42.836 specs that our customers care about in the future. Can 0:18:42.876 --> 0:18:45.676 we provide heat consistently? Can we provide it at the 0:18:45.716 --> 0:18:49.476 right temperature? Are there any sorts of fluctuations or variability 0:18:49.516 --> 0:18:51.676 of this? Those are the sorts of metrics we're going 0:18:51.716 --> 0:18:53.276 to be looking for so that when we talk to 0:18:53.676 --> 0:18:56.436 future customers we can show them this is going to 0:18:56.476 --> 0:18:59.396 do the exact same thing that your fossil fuel burner 0:18:59.756 --> 0:19:02.116 or boiler does for you today, which is provide consistent 0:19:02.196 --> 0:19:04.796 heat twenty four to seven regardless of what's going on 0:19:04.836 --> 0:19:05.716 with the weather. 0:19:06.556 --> 0:19:09.516 So when do you think you'll be doing it for real? 0:19:09.716 --> 0:19:12.796 When do you think you'll have a real, non pilot 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:14.716 paying customer using your heat? 0:19:15.316 --> 0:19:18.076 What we're looking at for the first like really large 0:19:18.156 --> 0:19:22.556 projects is likely twenty twenty five deployments, and these are 0:19:22.596 --> 0:19:25.796 the earliest. Plants we're looking at are ones that are 0:19:25.836 --> 0:19:30.316 located in the wind belts. So this is places like Kansas, Texas, 0:19:30.396 --> 0:19:33.276 Iowa that have a huge amount of wind power. The 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:37.356 best economics in the world really for turning variable renewable 0:19:37.356 --> 0:19:42.116 electricity into industrial heat is in the Midwest US, and 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:44.876 that's because there's so much wind that's been built out 0:19:44.876 --> 0:19:47.956 there over the last decade that you actually have wind 0:19:47.956 --> 0:19:51.636 that's being curtailed or sold at negative prices a decent 0:19:51.716 --> 0:19:54.156 chunk of the time. So you think about you know, 0:19:54.396 --> 0:19:56.996 maybe it's at nighttime, the wind's blowing really hard, there 0:19:57.036 --> 0:20:00.516 isn't that much electricity demand, There isn't enough transmission capacity 0:20:00.676 --> 0:20:02.036 to send that electricity to. 0:20:02.236 --> 0:20:05.476 You can get for free basically, you just got to 0:20:05.596 --> 0:20:06.716 be able to store. 0:20:06.476 --> 0:20:10.956 It, exactly. You can get energy for free, importantly, for 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:13.836 only a small number of hours of the year. Yeah, 0:20:13.876 --> 0:20:15.516 so you can't get it for free all the time. 0:20:15.596 --> 0:20:18.636 But if you have something that can absorb that energy 0:20:18.636 --> 0:20:20.676 really quickly, you can just shove that energy into a 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:23.756 box turn it into heat. Then that energy can be nearly. 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:30.236 Free in a minute, the Lightning Round, including one essential 0:20:30.316 --> 0:20:34.116 lesson about engineering and why Andrew went back to college 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:37.076