WEBVTT - Revisiting the Prohibition Era (Ext. Interview with Terence Winter of Boardwalk Empire) 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:05.400 Hello, and good day. This, of course, is ed on 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.600 this lovely morning. I'm going to bring you back to 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:11.400 one of our favorite bonus episodes from season three of 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.239 SNAFU Formula six. I had the incredible pleasure of sitting 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.720 down with Terrence Winter, the creator, writer, and executive producer 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:26.400 of the amazing and epic TV show Boardwalk Empire. Terry 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.360 did a ton of research on the Prohibition era, so 0:00:29.480 --> 0:00:32.760 we got to actually compare notes and even teach each 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.280 other a thing or two about those good old bootleg 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:39.280 and days. We also talked about our very different entries 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:44.720 into Hollywood, and Terry's story is insane. He essentially conned 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.360 his way into showbiz. It's a wild story. He's also 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.919 the brilliant mind behind the show Tulsa King and the 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.160 great Corsese movie The Wolf of Wall Street. It was 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.160 an absolute honor and delight to connect with Terry. I 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.080 loved his story, his grit, and his humor, and I 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.920 think you will too. So keep listening and we'll be 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:17.119 back with your regularly scheduled programming next week. Hey there, 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:23.040 I'm Ed Helms and this is SNAFU Season three, Formula six. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.560 How prohibitions War on Alcohol went so off the rails 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.840 the government wound up poisoning its own people. Welcome to 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.840 another bonus episode. You may recall in these bonus episodes, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.560 I bring in a guest and just have a great interview. So, 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:45.160 after spending this season unraveling prohibition, I wanted to talk 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:49.640 to someone who knows this era inside and out, someone 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.600 who could give us a whole new layer of historical context, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.880 color and detail. So who better than the guy who 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.000 actually built it, or at least rebuilt it on TV 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:08.640 inter Terence Winter, the brilliant creator of HBO's Boardwalk Empire. 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.320 He joins me for a fascinating deep dive into prohibitions, gangsters, 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.800 corrupt officials, and of course it's completely bonkers policies. We 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:21.480 talk about his unlikely journey from Brooklyn to Hollywood, including 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.080 the wild story of how he invented a fake talent 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.959 agency to get his foot in the door, and how 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:30.080 he stumbled upon the real life Nukie Johnson, the inspiration 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:33.760 for his lead character, Nukie Thompson. I also asked him 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.120 whether Formula six was ever on his radar and dig 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:41.679 into some of the not entirely coincidental parallels between his 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.880 fictionalized characters and the real people we covered this season, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.600 and honestly, just as a fellow showbiz guy, I had 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.239 a blast nerding out with him, because who doesn't love 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:55.399 a peak behind. 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.000 The curtain of a great TV show. 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.800 So settle in, grab a stiff drink pre non poisoned, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.799 and enjoy my conversation with Terrence Winter. 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.919 Hey, I'm so good to meet you man too. It's 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.800 so so great to meet you. Honestly, I didn't know 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:22.320 you were a history guy. 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.080 You know, there's such a cool overlap of this season 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:28.960 of snaff Who, which is all about prohibition, And we'll 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.480 get into some of the really surprising things that I 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:37.360 learned and research for this season that might even be 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.720 surprising to you as an expert on prohibition because of 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:46.360 your incredible series Boardwalk Empire. But let's start a little 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:48.920 more broadly so our listeners can get to know you 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.320 a little bit better. Where are you from originally? What 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.280 was your sort of path to Hollywood writer? 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.720 I grew up in Marine Park, Brooklyn, which is an 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.960 area that I usually have to describe by its proximity 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.040 to other neighborhoods in Brooklyn that people have heard of. 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.200 You may have heard of sheeps at Bay, which actually 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.520 was an integral neighborhood in terms of prohibition because boats 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.320 used to come right in there, and that's kind of 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.159 your Coney Island, so you know, basically blue collar family, 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:20.800 blue calm neighborhood. I actually started to be an auto 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.960 mechanic in high school and that didn't stick. I took 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:27.080 a detour into the Delhi business, eventually figured out that 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.960 they needed to go to college. Eventually went to law school, 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.240 practiced law for two years, hated it. 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:34.560 And then my deep. 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.440 Dark secret was I had always wanted to be a 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.880 sitcom writer, which was something that you know on the 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.839 East Coast in the seventies, you dare not tell your 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.440 friends yes that you wanted to go to Hollywood and 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:46.120 be anything. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.440 I had a similar thing in growing up in Georgia. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:53.320 I harbored these deep aspirations from a very young age. 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.640 But I knew I could never tell anyone, Yeah were 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:57.240 your trass kicks. 0:04:57.320 --> 0:04:59.960 Yeah, either get beat up or crazy, or they would 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:02.000 crush your dreams. 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.000 Absolutely, which is what friends are. Four. Can I curse 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:09.080 on this hell? Yes? Or okay? Because it's very difficult 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:09.800 for me to talk with that. 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:11.960 I do all the record for the most uses of 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.640 the word fuck in a movie Wolf of Wall Street. 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:15.520 Which we're very proud of. 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.560 So it's very hard for me to have a conversation, 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.480 so that'll slip out occasionally. Anyway, once I came out 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.440 of the closet as a writer, I just said, I'm. 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:25.800 Moving to la and I'm going to figure this out. 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.680 I showed up here in nineteen ninety one and I 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:30.520 just kind of plunged in and I started out, you know, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.520 to tempting to be a sitcom writer, and then eventually 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.279 just morphed into drama that kind of had comedy in it. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.359 So I just got incredibly lucky and still lucky to 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.160 be doing that kind of stuff. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:47.600 So growing up in Brooklyn and then heading off to 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.719 law school, did you then become a lawyer in Brooklyn? 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.279 Did you say I was a lawyer in Manhattan. You know, 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:55.880 my only ambition as a kid was I wanted to 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.080 be rich, because we were not, and the only two 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.520 jobs I knew that could make you rich were doctor 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.480 and lawyer. The doctor was out, and I remember there 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.520 was a quote by Benjamin Franklin and he said, pour 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.440 thy person into thy head, and no man can take 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.640 it from you, you know, get an education. 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.479 Basically, Yeah, that's Peter Still. I like that. Yeah, I 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:15.840 love that. 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:19.039 So it took creative writing, and eventually I stumbled onto journalism. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:22.359 And you know again, you know, my ambition was to 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:24.560 make money. That was what a good job was. The 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:27.680 concept of liking your job was something you know, you know, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:28.640 you just want to make money. 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.720 So lawyer was the thing. So I had. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.480 Another professor journalism, profession named Jerry Schwartz, who was a 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.680 managing editor at the Associated Press, and I asked him 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.920 to write a recommendation for law school and he did. 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.000 He wrote me this glowing recommendation. He gave it to 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.000 me in a Manila envelope and he said there's another 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.839 letter in there for you personally, and that letter said, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:49.719 please don't go to law school, please be a writer. 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.599 And I was like, this is the second adult who's 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.279 told me I am a good writer. 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.360 A good thing. He didn't submit that letter in the 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:02.200 law school I should. I might have saved me a 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:02.800 lot of time. 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.200 Meanwhile, all my friends who became auto mechanics were making 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:08.279 a fortune. They all thought I was the biggest idiot 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.760 in the world. Joe College, you know I'm already now 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.440 in the whole student loan wise from m YU, and 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.160 I said, all right, there's only one way forward, and 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:17.800 that's the law school. So I did that when at night, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.280 worked for Merrill Lynch during the day as the legal 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.840 assistant to one of the lawyers who counseled the trading people, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:31.000 and graduated, got a job at a big Manhattan law firm, 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:33.640 passed the New York Bar, the Connecticut Bar, and my 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.080 first week there I realized I had made a grave, 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:42.720 grave error. I hated it. I didn't I just couldn't 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.280 give a shit about any of it. Within about a 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.080 week and a half, I was sneaking out during the 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:51.000 day going to movies, bookstores. I just two years in. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.360 I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.200 just didn't go there. So it was really, you know, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:57.840 it was you really were You're making good money there? 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.000 Yeah? Yeah, it was great. I had everything I thought 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:00.520 what I wanted. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.360 I had an assistant, I had an office, I had 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.240 a diploma written in Latin. I was like, holy shit, 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:06.880 look at me, I'm a lawyer, and was that new? 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.160 And did you go to NYU law school? Also? 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.600 Now I went to Saint John's Law School, which is 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.320 the Harvard of Queen's Sure, and I was in the 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.679 top five percent of the bottom third of my class, 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.840 so I was very proud of that. Again, it was 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.280 like I wasn't even thinking in terms of are you happy? 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.080 And you know, it was I was like twenty nine 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:29.400 at this point, and I had that moment like, okay, 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:31.720 you were going to either jump out a window in 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.480 ten years from the depression of working somewhere you just 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:37.320 don't like and you'll never be good at this because 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:38.479 you don't like it. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:39.840 What do you want to do when you wake up 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:40.320 in the morning. 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.560 And I was like, all right, well, maybe i'd be 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:45.480 a salesman, you know, because I liked to bullshit. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:46.360 And I was like, all right. 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.120 Then there's a little voice that said, come on, it's 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:50.640 not a salesman, what is it. And I was like, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.079 all right, well, an ad copywriter. Maybe I could do 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:55.160 that because and then even the voice like come on, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.840 go deeper. And then it was finally, I want to 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.720 go to fucking Hollywood and sitcoms. And once I said 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.440 that out loud, it was like everything changed. But then 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.120 I thought, all right, well, I remember this bit in 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:13.040 mister Saturday Night with Billy Crystal, where he talked about 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.360 the idea of you're either living room funny or you're 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.480 really funny. You know, you could be funny with your 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.600 friends and yeah, hey, I'm I'm the funniest guy in 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:21.080 the group. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:23.679 Can you do that for real? And I thought, all right, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:24.720 well I think I can't. 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.079 And I thought the fastest way to figure this out 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.960 is write my own material and do stand up and 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.400 if I can get people to laugh, then I'm legit. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:32.840 Wow. 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:34.880 I wasn't particularly interested in being a stand up, but 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:37.160 I wanted to see am I crazy? Or am I funny? 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.720 Or I really am funny? So for a couple of 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:41.880 months right around that time, I was doing stand up 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.160 and catcherizing Star and this is what You're strip ninety 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:47.840 nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.880 Wow, what a great time in those clubs. Yeah, oh yes. 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.160 And it was interesting too because it was like this 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.320 young woman named Sarah Silverman. Sure, holy shit, Chris Rock 0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:00.440 was still around, you know, well these are the real deal, 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:02.360 you know. And I was doing open mics and watching 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.360 these people and going man, you know, like a young 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.040 Sarah Silverman was just great to see that and then 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.480 to watch our career after that was great. 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:10.720 Wow, you know I did okay. 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.000 You know, I get on at two in the morning, 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:14.880 the three people and it's okay, I said something. They laughed, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:16.959 great that work this word that and then once I 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.920 once I said okay, I'm not crazy, then I was like, 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:20.840 all right, I'm doing this. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:23.680 So you stopped doing stand up and then dove it. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.480 That's so interesting that that that crucible of stand up 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.760 was your sort of testing ground. And anyway, I had 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:34.400 a similar, uh similar path. I knew that I wanted 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.960 to work in comedy, and to me, stand up was 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.960 sort of like, all right, if you're serious, you know, 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.200 get into it. And I got right into that same 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.280 circuit you were in, but like the next sort of 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.560 time frame. So I started in about ninety seven ninety eight, 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:56.680 and uh, and I love I still relish my years 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:58.200 in the New York City stand up. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.800 It's anybody has never done it. 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:02.320 I mean, you know, it's funny if you think like 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:04.960 they say, like one of the biggest fears people have 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.320 is speaking in public. Speaking in public with the agenda 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.960 of also trying to get people who laugh is like, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.520 and it's funny. Do you do a bit, or you 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:15.839 say a joke and people don't laugh. It's like getting 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.240 punched in the face. It is like it is no 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:20.800 sound louder than people not laughing. Yeah, they say you 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:21.679 think they're going to. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.680 Let's say you're like a string quartet, or or like 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.880 even a great professor at a university giving a lecture. 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.800 Most performers will get up in front of an audience 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:38.319 and the audience actually wants them to succeed. Not true 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.240 in comedy clubs. A lot of audience members in a 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:44.920 comedy club want you to bomb. They want they want 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:48.000 to feel the train wreck. They're there to see the 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:51.960 just car crash. But wow, that's that's awesome. Okay, So 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:56.679 then then Hollywood and you just moved out and. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.760 I jumped in down. I did not know a soul, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.040 literally sold everything I had. I was not in a 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.560 relationship at the time, and I just showed up here. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.280 On May eighth, nineteen ninety one, I got a room 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:13.080 in a horrible sro hotel was actually in MacArthur Park, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:14.959 and now I was like, I have to figure out. 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.720 So I went down to the Writers Guild and this 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:21.520 was just complete luck. They had a list of new 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.920 agents or young agents who were actually looking for clients. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.160 And on that list was a guy I went to 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.560 law school with who sat four seats. 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:29.840 Away from her. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.200 Oh wow, and his name was Doug Viviani. He's not 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.640 an agent, so don't call him. But I called him 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:36.920 and I said, what are you doing? 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:37.880 Are you an agent? 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.520 He says, no, I am a real estate attorney and 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.200 a client of MI. I wrote a book on real estate, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:44.120 and I use the fee to get bonded as an agent. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.720 But I don't know anything about being an agent. I said, congratulations, 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:47.319 you're my agent. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.000 What are you talking? I'm in LA. I'm right, I'm 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:51.360 trying to be a writer. I need an agent. 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.360 I said, So I'm going to create the Doug VIVIANNY 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:56.040 Agency out of a mailboxes, etc. And we're going to 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:58.160 get letterhead and a phone mail and I'm going to 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.760 submit my work under your letterhead, and if I get anything, 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:02.480 you get ten percent, like an agent. 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:04.880 And he said great, So that's what I did. 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:07.920 So you were your own agent. He was just the 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:09.320 sort of like nominally yeah. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.520 He he was like, you know the guy on Charlie's Angels. 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.880 So I did that and I photocopied all my scripts 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.840 and this is back you know, this is I'm like 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.440 nineteen ninety two when you could do this. I would 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.440 just pull up to the Warner Brothers lot, for example, 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:24.720 and say, yeah, I'm the messenger from the Doug Vivannie agency. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:26.160 I have some scripts I need to drop off. 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:29.000 And I just hit every sitcom office in LA and 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:30.880 there was like thirty of them at a time, and 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.600 I addressed, you know, here's my scripts to the showrunner 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.240 from an agent. And now at least my scripts are 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.880 in the building where theoretically, if lightning struck, I could 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.800 at least have a shot. And I don't know, about 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:44.120 a week or so into it, I got a there's 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.719 a phone message on the Doug Vivianni voicemail line, and 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.880 it's a woman said, yeah, Hi, my name is Winnifred 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.360 Hervey Stalworth on the executive producer of Fresh Prince of 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:56.360 bel Air. I read Terry Winter's stuff. Interested in having 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.440 him in maybe to pitch, So I said, oh my god. 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.680 So I called Doug in New York and it was 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.480 a Friday. He was gone for the weekend. I was like, shit, 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.200 I gotta wait till Monday now. And I was like 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:07.760 you know what, Doug doesn't really know anything about being 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:08.160 an agient. 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.559 I'll just be Doug. And I called her back and 0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:12.560 I said, yeah, so Donald Trump, of you? 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:17.480 Yeah, John Baron calling, so yeah, And I have no 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.720 idea what agents did or said. The only agent I 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:24.840 ever saw was Rubin Kincaid on The Partridge Family, and 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:26.080 he didn't seem to do much. 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:28.160 But I figured, you know, let me just I'm just 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:28.760 gonna wing it. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.520 And she said, yeah, yeah, we read his stuff. He's really, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.000 you know, talented. Sow Kid's amazing. So does he have 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:37.960 like one more teenage oriented script, because you know, Fresh 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:39.960 Prince Is is kind of a teenage show. I said, yeah, 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.840 he just finished an incredible episode of The Wonder Years, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.720 but I don't have a copy of it. I won't 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:46.600 have it until so I'm trying to calculate in my 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.000 head how long is it going to take it? Right? 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:49.480 One days episode? So it was Friday. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.600 I can get it to you too, mon late Tuesday afternoon. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:55.920 If that were yeah, fine, great, So hung up the 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.040 phone and cranked out a Wonder Year's episode, went in, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.400 gave it in now he was the messenger of the lawyer. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.880 It was everybody and they had me in the pitch 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.400 an idea, and that became my foot in the door. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.960 I sold them on an idea that ultimately never went anywhere, 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:12.880 but that was my first shot. And a little after 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.520 I got into a thing called the Warner Brothers Sitcom Writers' Workshop. 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:16.360 They used to do. 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.440 They would take fifteen people from a pool of hundreds 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.520 around the country and then put you through a program. 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.480 At the end of it, they called me in. They said, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:25.680 we have an interesting situation. We have a show we 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.600 think you'd be great for. It's not a sitcom and 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.080 this isn't a reflection of your sitcom writing. It's a 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.240 drama that has comedy in it. And I said, well, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.200 why me? And they said, well, it's about a blue 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.320 collar guy who's a lawyer who works for a big, 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:37.240 stuffy law firm. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.360 Do you think you could do that? And I was like, 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:40.200 if I don't get this. 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.560 Fucking job, I said yes, basically my life story. So yeah, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.000 And that was my actual first staff job. It was 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.920 a show called The Great Defender with Michael Rospoli, Peter Krause, 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.840 Richard Kylee who's Man of La Mancha. And thank God 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.320 that I've been working ever since that show. 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:05.000 Wow, incredible, there's a thread here which is grit and 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:11.280 Moxie and I sort of never seeing an obstacle as 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:12.040 an obstacle. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:14.840 But yeah, but it's just something to work around. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.760 And yeah, especially with this, I was not taken no 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:19.480 for an answer. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.040 So where do you Where do you think that came from? 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.520 Growing up? Like, were you a scrappy kid in Brooklyn 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:25.200 to do? I mean, yeah, I mean I grew up. 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.840 When I was thirteen, I started working for a butcher 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.120 shop that was owned by Paul Castellano, who's the head 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.720 of the Gambino family. When I was sixteen, I worked 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.080 in an illegal card game run out of a synagogue 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.160 in our neighborhood that was run by a guy named 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.800 Roy Demeyo who's the subject of a book called Murder Machine. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.040 He and his crew in the early eighties killed more 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.280 people than the Iraqi Army at the time, I think 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:49.080 was the statistic. He had a bar in my neighborhood, 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.960 so by asthmosis, I just kind of knew those guys. 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:56.400 I also just became fascinated with crime and criminals. Actually, 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.360 somebody asked me this, like, what was the first thing, 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.360 and it sounds quaint now, but it was the movie Oliver. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:05.479 I loved the idea of being part of that gang 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.280 of pickpockets. That was like, so I wanted to be 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.719 the I wanted to be the artful dodger. Like that 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.600 looks so cool to me. And right around that time, 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:15.360 I read Abby Hoffman had this book called Steal this 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.600 book course Yeah, which was my bible, and it was 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:21.440 the first time of like, oh, wow, you can scam shit. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.719 And then the Sting came out and I was like, 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.600 oh my god, I'm using your brain to psyche people 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.560 out and get what you want. And I just became 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.760 fascinated with the idea of using psychology or human nature 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:34.480 to sort of, you know. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:36.399 Get my way through the world. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.760 And I just sort of, yeah, became that guy and 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.720 that kid you know who was always, even to this day, 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.439 my initial instinct if I'm presented with a problem, I 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.640 always think of what's the way to scam my way 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.040 through this? And I go, yeah, you can just pay it. 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:53.119 You can just pay the bill. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:54.679 You don't need to do right. 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.000 But that's right where I go, what lie do I 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:01.120 tell to get And I know here that's you from 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:02.440 when you're fifteen years old, but. 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:04.040 Wow, it was all ingrained. 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.919 Well that's a pretty good transition point for us, because 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.640 you had a kind of exposure to that criminal element 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:15.200 in Brooklyn. Is that what made you such a perfect 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:20.560 candidate for one of your biggest staff jobs at the Sopranos. 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.119 There, I think, so. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.720 Yeah, when I when I saw that pilot, my agent 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:26.359 at the time sent it to me, and you know, 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.720 like most people, I thought, opera, what is this? And 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:31.960 I don't even think I finished watching it and I 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.040 was like trembling. I was like, I know these guys. 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.560 I know these people. I know how they talking to, 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.159 how they think. I called him up, I said, you 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:40.399 got to get me on this show. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.920 So the real life mob life was not for you. 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:50.119 It was not something that even attracted you from a 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.000 sort of like romantic or exotic sense, which I think 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.000 is draws a lot of people into that space. But 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.480 the fictional mob space was right where you felt at home. 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.560 And yeah, that love. I love that stuff. 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.480