Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm
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Speaker 1: on with a macron. Cases are spreading in China during
Speaker 1: the countdown to the Winter Olympics in Beijing, with a
Speaker 1: leading ski jumper pulling out after she tested positive. Our
Speaker 1: next guest, by the way, is an Olympian silver medalist
Speaker 1: winning at the Athens Games for swimming back in two
Speaker 1: thousand four ten. We're talking about Tara kirk Cell, Senior
Speaker 1: Scholar at the Center for Health Security at Johns Hopkins
Speaker 1: Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School
Speaker 1: Public Health that is supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg philanthropist. Are It's great to
Speaker 1: speak with you again. I'm wondering about the Olympics happening
Speaker 1: in Beijing versus the Olympics that we saw in Tokyo.
Speaker 1: And these are both happening in the midst of a pandemic.
Speaker 1: Why is it so much more difficult for athletes in Beijing? Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: thanks for having me on the show. You know, I
Speaker 1: think that the Tokyo Olympics proof that you can hold
Speaker 1: of Olympics during a pandemic, But the difficulty level is
Speaker 1: so much greater this time around for China. First, because
Speaker 1: we're dealing with the o maicon variant instead of the
Speaker 1: delta variants. Macon variant is much more transmissible and seems
Speaker 1: to be able to um effect have more breakthrough cases
Speaker 1: for people who are vaccinated. And then the second reason
Speaker 1: is because China has this zero COVID approach to COVID nineteen,
Speaker 1: and so the margin for error there just really isn't
Speaker 1: a marginal for error because they can't let it get out,
Speaker 1: they can't make any mistakes. So do you think it
Speaker 1: was smart that they went ahead? With the Games. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that it's there. They've had
Speaker 1: some competing priorities, right, they want to be able to
Speaker 1: hold the games. They put a lot of investment into it.
Speaker 1: I think that you know, it can be done. Um.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, it's very hard
Speaker 1: for them to do that, um and still push this
Speaker 1: COVID zero COVID approach. I mean, I think at some
Speaker 1: point they're going to have to say, um, you know,
Speaker 1: then what what are we gonna do? How are we
Speaker 1: going to move away from zero COVID? And I think
Speaker 1: that um, you know, the games maybe the start of
Speaker 1: how they're going to think about that. So how should
Speaker 1: how should we watch it as as spectators? How should
Speaker 1: we look at it as spectators and try to understand
Speaker 1: what these Olympians are going through? I mean the big
Speaker 1: part of the Olympics, of course, is understanding the athletes,
Speaker 1: learning about their backstories. The experience that you had at
Speaker 1: the Olympics in Athenes in two thousand four, that's got
Speaker 1: to be completely different than what these athletes are doing
Speaker 1: right now. It doesn't sound that fun to actually be
Speaker 1: an Olympian right now. Well, I mean the first thing
Speaker 1: you that's the most important to continue in their export.
Speaker 1: And this is still you know, even with sort of
Speaker 1: the fun drained out of you know, the partying and
Speaker 1: the you know, gathering, the camaraderie right about meeting so
Speaker 1: many people rotary, even with that dreamed out, I still
Speaker 1: do feel like you've trained all your life, or at
Speaker 1: least for the last four years, to you know, compete
Speaker 1: on the world stage. And I think that that is
Speaker 1: that still remains and that's still valuable UM. And so
Speaker 1: I think that's why athletes they're still trying to participate
Speaker 1: UM and still going through all the trouble of these
Speaker 1: tests and everything that they need to to get to
Speaker 1: get UM, you know, to Beijing and to compete. I
Speaker 1: think it's it's still worth it. But you're right, there
Speaker 1: is something lost here. So how do you feel like
Speaker 1: once we get through this? I wonder. I do think
Speaker 1: this is going to be with us for a long time,
Speaker 1: at least based on the conversations we have with you
Speaker 1: and your team at Johns Hopkins and others in the
Speaker 1: healthcare professions. UM, I don't know. Well, it sounds like
Speaker 1: we've learned a lot. We're ready for the next one.
Speaker 1: I don't know. How do you see it? Well, I
Speaker 1: think when it comes to COVID nineteen, you're right, and
Speaker 1: it's going to be with us for a long time.
Speaker 1: I think that for the most part, people who have
Speaker 1: been backnated UM have a really good, good protection against
Speaker 1: severe disease. So I think it's something that won't be
Speaker 1: sort of this front burner UM, you know, emergency anymore.
Speaker 1: Will probably see some searches in cases where you have
Speaker 1: to put a mask back on if the cases got
Speaker 1: really high, And you might worry about hospitals because you
Speaker 1: know there's some people who just won't get vaccinated UM
Speaker 1: or you know who will end up in the hospital.
Speaker 1: But I think overall we're just going to be dealing
Speaker 1: with it. Now. Does that make us ready for the
Speaker 1: next one? I think that there's a question there because
Speaker 1: public health has lost a lot of trust. But people
Speaker 1: have lost a lot of trust in public health, and
Speaker 1: it's going to be the you know, the work of
Speaker 1: a generation of public health leaders to try to rebuild that,
Speaker 1: because I think trust is the most important thing when
Speaker 1: it comes to pandemic response. Well, how do they do
Speaker 1: that in this last this last phase of vaccine rollout
Speaker 1: for kids under the age of five. How does how
Speaker 1: does the federal government say that these shots are safe
Speaker 1: for the youngest? Sure, well, I think that it's proving
Speaker 1: the data that people can look at it and feels
Speaker 1: confident in it. But I also think it's not the
Speaker 1: federal government that should be telling people, you know, like
Speaker 1: here's what you should do. I think it's really about
Speaker 1: helping people have these conversations with people they trust. I mean,
Speaker 1: you either trust the government or you don't, and we're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to change that in the
Speaker 1: next few months. So I think that really it's about
Speaker 1: you know, JOHNS. Hopkins has um you know, published a
Speaker 1: new um how to talk to you know, Ambassador Vaccine
Speaker 1: Ambassador training to how to talk to parents about vaccinating
Speaker 1: their kids. Right, these types of conversations that happen, you know,
Speaker 1: on the sidelines of sports events, on the bleachers of
Speaker 1: us at a school meet, you know, or you know,
Speaker 1: amongst other parents, people they trust at church, those types
Speaker 1: of things. That's where we sort of will make these games.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's you know, having someone from the
Speaker 1: CDC coming out saying anything, all right, we gotta run
Speaker 1: these conversations. Ter good, Thank you. Tara kirk Sol She's
Speaker 1: senior scholar at the Center for Health Security JOHNS Hopkins
Speaker 1: Bloomberg School of Public Health, joining us on the phone
Speaker 1: from Washington. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week, and this
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bomberg Business Week with
Speaker 1: Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: I want to get to this week's cover story. Back
Speaker 1: in June of last year, Hong Kong authority shutting down
Speaker 1: Apple Daily. It was a popular newspaper aligned with the
Speaker 1: city's democracy movement. It's become clear that China's attack on
Speaker 1: the publisher was really a template for a broader crackdown
Speaker 1: when it comes to Hong Kong and democracy in Hong Kong.
Speaker 1: This story is the cover of the new issue of
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's available on news stands, on
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com Slash business Week.
Speaker 1: The story written by Ian Marlowe, Asia Government senior reporter
Speaker 1: for Bloomberg News. He's with us now on the phone
Speaker 1: from Canada. Ian. This is congratulations on the cover. By
Speaker 1: the way, it's just a really really important story and
Speaker 1: a really important topic. I wanted to start off with
Speaker 1: with more about what Apple Daily is or was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you no. Apple Daily was an enormously popular newspaper
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong. Just to give you a sent there
Speaker 1: were roughly three point eight million registered users on the website,
Speaker 1: which is roughly half the city's population, and just before
Speaker 1: they were shut down, they had more than more than
Speaker 1: six hundred thousands paying digital subscribers. So very popular with
Speaker 1: a huge source of news. But it was also at
Speaker 1: the heart to some extent of the pro democracy movement
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong. It was owned by Jimmy Lai, a
Speaker 1: very wealthy tycoon in Hong Kong who, unlike the other
Speaker 1: uh you know, establishment figures in that city, was willing
Speaker 1: to use his resources, his financial firepower to push back
Speaker 1: against China, to push back against what they were doing
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong with regards to pushing the National Security
Speaker 1: Law through uh you know, jailing all these pro democracy
Speaker 1: advocates and those sorts of things. So he was a
Speaker 1: prime target not just for the local Hong Kong government,
Speaker 1: for Beijing more broadly, and they had singled him out
Speaker 1: numerous times. Uh you know, for being a sort of
Speaker 1: rabble rouser in Hong Kong. And when the government went
Speaker 1: after his paper, they really went after it. They froze
Speaker 1: the bank account, they arrested the top staff. There were
Speaker 1: five hundred police officers sent to raid the headquarters in
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. This was unprecedented in a city that is
Speaker 1: not just the global financial center, but was also a
Speaker 1: sort of regional base for international media companies, from from
Speaker 1: Bloomberg to CNN to two others. So it was the
Speaker 1: shut bound was shocked, but it was also to a
Speaker 1: large degree template for what Beijing wanted to do with
Speaker 1: Hong Kong in the future. And since it was shut,
Speaker 1: things have only accelerated further. You know, Ian, I think
Speaker 1: about I worked at the Wall Street Journal on a
Speaker 1: broadcast called the Wall Street Journal Report, and I mean,
Speaker 1: Hong Kong was this safe zone, right and you know,
Speaker 1: um when it came to business markets, uh, you name it, uh,
Speaker 1: and everybody kind of look to Hong Kong is maybe
Speaker 1: a sign of what was hopefully to come were broadly
Speaker 1: in China, and now we're finding out that that's not
Speaker 1: the case. By targeting Apple Daily, right, it could have
Speaker 1: targeted you know, a lot of things initially, but by
Speaker 1: really going aggressively after Apple Daily, that tells you what, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it basically tells you that, like in mainland China,
Speaker 1: there is just zero tolerance for anything that could represent
Speaker 1: an alternate power center in Hong Kong, and systematically, bit
Speaker 1: by bit, the government had gone after the opposition politicians
Speaker 1: in Hong Kong, Tho's democracy advocates who were actually working
Speaker 1: within the system. They went after Apple Daily, you know,
Speaker 1: right off the bat, closed that that was a huge
Speaker 1: source of opposition support. Then they started going after smaller targets.
Speaker 1: They started going after charity NGOs, some of the organizations
Speaker 1: that had promoted some of the peaceful prot has over
Speaker 1: over the past you know, twenty years um, and that basically,
Speaker 1: one by one sort of dismantled anything that could represent
Speaker 1: any threat at all to China getting its way in
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. And and Apple Daily was absolutely, without you know,
Speaker 1: any doubt, it was the biggest one there. And I
Speaker 1: think that the big thing about Apple Daily, uh closure
Speaker 1: was you know what happened. Everyone was saying, well, who
Speaker 1: Who's next? And I don't think anyone's really even asking
Speaker 1: that question anymore because everything that's happening people guests from
Speaker 1: the outset of the National Security Law of being put
Speaker 1: down in June that basically gone after anything that represents
Speaker 1: memorials to the tmmms, where anyone that was agitating in
Speaker 1: a labor union, all those sorts of things by the
Speaker 1: and now even just this week we saw the University
Speaker 1: of Hong Kong, which is one of the most prestigious
Speaker 1: universities in the city, just had a visa rejected or
Speaker 1: a researcher who is meant to come into the city
Speaker 1: just to do uh research on LGBT key rates. And
Speaker 1: so it's sort of a endless procession here where you know,
Speaker 1: anything can be considered somewhat uh anti establishment if the
Speaker 1: authorities really feel like it's it's a threat to them.
Speaker 1: So um, you know. And the other thing here is
Speaker 1: that Apple Daily was a business. It was it was
Speaker 1: owned by a publicly listed company. Jimmy Lai had sententy
Speaker 1: one percent of the shares in that company. He was
Speaker 1: overruled and he was, uh, there's a government order for
Speaker 1: him not to exercise his voting rights. And then the
Speaker 1: government throws the accounts without any resource to the courts,
Speaker 1: and then company was shut down. So that's something that
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in Hong Kong are
Speaker 1: concerned about because essentially the sky's the limit now in
Speaker 1: terms of what the government can use this law for,
Speaker 1: and they're putting it into every piece of legislation they can,
Speaker 1: from film sent for ship laws to tax guidance or charities. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's all over the place with language about national security
Speaker 1: and acting contrary to the interest of national security. It's
Speaker 1: all it's all very vague, and I think people just
Speaker 1: actually now kind of know which way the slide is
Speaker 1: going here. Well, it's a must read. It's the cover
Speaker 1: story of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, and we really appreciate
Speaker 1: catching up with Bloomberg News Asia Government Senior Reporter Ian Marlowe.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All Right, so,
Speaker 1: how's your day going? Uh, not so great if you
Speaker 1: are Metal platforms also known as Facebook company shares, experience
Speaker 1: a one day crash that may rank as the worst
Speaker 1: in stock market history. Ten yea Mark Zuckerberg losing some
Speaker 1: thirty billion dollars in net worth as well with stock
Speaker 1: plunge like this, it's like unbelievable. And we've seen a
Speaker 1: great story on the Bloomberg Naomi Nicks putting it out
Speaker 1: about Mark Zuckerberg actually talking to his employees. Let's get more.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Tech team leader Sarafy, she too has an
Speaker 1: interesting column that's out. She's on the phone from San Francisco.
Speaker 1: She knows this company so so well. She's the author
Speaker 1: of No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram. Sarah Fryer,
Speaker 1: It is great to have you back with us. I
Speaker 1: remember from reading your book close you know, at this point,
Speaker 1: close to a couple of years ago, the book about
Speaker 1: Instagram um No Filter The Inside Story of Instagram, that
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg is so paranoid about competition. How do you
Speaker 1: think he's feeling right now seeing that Facebook user growth
Speaker 1: has stalled and that TikTok is a real competitor where
Speaker 1: people are spending, especially young people, a lot of time.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is his deep fear that
Speaker 1: he's had at the One of the reasons that Facebook
Speaker 1: has continued to grow for so long is because of
Speaker 1: zuckerberg paranoia. The growth team that he has um basically
Speaker 1: monitoring every possible reason that people could have to leave
Speaker 1: Facebook and trying to fix that as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons for that is is the
Speaker 1: network effects. The thing that made Facebook so powerful, um
Speaker 1: the fact that if somebody uses uses one network, um,
Speaker 1: other people are more likely to use it. It has
Speaker 1: also a test scating negative effect. If people leave the network,
Speaker 1: it's suddenly becomes less valuable for the remaining users. And
Speaker 1: so Zuckerberg never wanted Facebook to reach the point where
Speaker 1: it gets into a death spiral, and and this could
Speaker 1: be that point. So I think it's very concerning to
Speaker 1: people at meta and UM, I think that's why they're
Speaker 1: putting all their eggs in the metaverse. Does does the
Speaker 1: Facebook saw this coming because of what it sees in
Speaker 1: the internal data and perhaps because of the pivot that
Speaker 1: it announced a few months ago of going into the metaverse?
Speaker 1: You've covered Facebook for years? Is this the most pivotal
Speaker 1: point that you've seen for the company from a business perspective?
Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, I think I think Listen,
Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of options in the past.
Speaker 1: Maybe they could have acquired a great upstart social network
Speaker 1: to breathe new life into this into Facebook. You know,
Speaker 1: they can't make the kind of acquisition right now because
Speaker 1: of antitrust pressure. Um. They could you pull some levers
Speaker 1: to get people to share more, um, but they've already
Speaker 1: done that. So I think it's it's really hard for them,
Speaker 1: especially when you consider that their their ad targeting is
Speaker 1: going to become less useful and it's gonna be less
Speaker 1: it's less easy for them to tell advertisers how well
Speaker 1: their ads performed because of Apple changes to tracking asking
Speaker 1: users to agree with tracking, and a lot of users
Speaker 1: are saying no, don't track me, so that those are like,
Speaker 1: this is a time where you're seeing multiple existential threats
Speaker 1: to facebooks business model and their way out of it. Um.
Speaker 1: They the short term way out is their TikTok copycat product,
Speaker 1: which is real which you know it could it could work.
Speaker 1: I mean YouTube Shore because it is also a TikTok product,
Speaker 1: copycat product that's done pretty well and maybe real good too.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen a lot there, but it looks to
Speaker 1: me like a lot of the stuff is reposted from chickof.
Speaker 1: So there's that, and then there's the betaverse of that.
Speaker 1: The latter is something that requires all of us to
Speaker 1: want it to live and work in a virtual world,
Speaker 1: which is going to be Yeah, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: pie in the scared dream. I'm not ready to leave
Speaker 1: the real world. I'm just gonna put it out there. Hey.
Speaker 1: Having said that, um, we just we're talking about the
Speaker 1: markets and we're talking about meta Facebook with our TV
Speaker 1: colleagues and Romain Bostick bringing up that, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: it's time that Mark Zuckerberg steps aside running the company.
Speaker 1: Maybe there needs to be some new people coming in.
Speaker 1: We've seen this at a lot of these whether it
Speaker 1: was Google. I think about when Eric Schmidt came in.
Speaker 1: You see this sometimes changing where the founder steps away
Speaker 1: for a moment. Is that something that we need to
Speaker 1: be thinking about or should be? It depends how bad
Speaker 1: this gets. We've seen Zuckerberg pull up from a downturn before. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure some employees are looking at this
Speaker 1: and thinking it's a great buying opportunity. Um. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: it does seem it does seem pretty existential. That said,
Speaker 1: who else is going to be the one to drive
Speaker 1: this this um pass into the metaverse. There is so
Speaker 1: much money invested on three point for more than three
Speaker 1: billion in operating loss this past quarter, that there's no
Speaker 1: turning back. They've they've put all the resources into play
Speaker 1: there and and if he's got the vision like this
Speaker 1: is he's really the guy that's going to have to
Speaker 1: pull it through. UM, I would expect. And so that
Speaker 1: makes things a little complicated. But money makers are really
Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram. Sara, are you sitting down with Mark
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg right now, You've got about forty seconds left here?
Speaker 1: What do you ask him? I just want to know
Speaker 1: if if he really thinks that that they that they
Speaker 1: can afford to put products like Facebook and Instagram into
Speaker 1: a sort of maintenance mode, like sort of change the
Speaker 1: focus of the metaverse. It seems like there's still so
Speaker 1: much to fix on those products. UM. And I just
Speaker 1: wonder if if that's going to hurt them long term,
Speaker 1: that they're not um focused on solving the problems with
Speaker 1: their existing networks instead focus on the future future effort. Alright,
Speaker 1: gonna run. Sarah, Thank you, Thank you, Sarah Fire, Big
Speaker 1: Tech team leader, Bloomberg News. Check out her book if
Speaker 1: you haven't read it already, No Filter, The Inside Story
Speaker 1: of Instagram, Facebook Shares right now, Tim down worst day
Speaker 1: in the company's history by far, and talk about a
Speaker 1: haircut on that market cap. You're listening to Bloomberg Business
Speaker 1: Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic
Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. Alright, just one week from now, Tim
Speaker 1: and I are going to be out in Sunny l A,
Speaker 1: just ahead of the Super Bowl and at the Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Power Players Smit, the gathering of who's who in sports,
Speaker 1: including NFL team owners, players of all sports, agents, broadcasters
Speaker 1: and so much more. No doubt we will be talking
Speaker 1: about the explosive lawsuit filed by former Miami Dolphins head
Speaker 1: coach Brian Flora. So let's get some reporting on this
Speaker 1: and what the owner of the Dolphins is now saying
Speaker 1: with us right now is Bloomberg News legal reporter Christal Match.
Speaker 1: She's on the phone from Manhattan, the Manhattan Federal Courthouse.
Speaker 1: Hey Chris, nice to have you here with Tim and myself.
Speaker 1: So what is the owner talking about? We're talking about
Speaker 1: Stephen Ross. Yeah, So Mr Ross is um you know,
Speaker 1: the humerently denying the allegations in the lawsuit and most
Speaker 1: substantially the allegation that he offered Brian Flora's a hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars per game to lose, basically the tank so
Speaker 1: that the team would have a worse record and have
Speaker 1: a better shot at one of the top draft picks. UM.
Speaker 1: He's saying, you know, he never made these Uh. He's
Speaker 1: welcomed the NFL's investigation. UM, and he's promising to fight
Speaker 1: these allegations. In the lawsuit, Florist does allege that his
Speaker 1: refusal to tank games led to a clash with Stephen Ross,
Speaker 1: who was mad that the team won five games that season,
Speaker 1: costing them a chance of the top overall draft pick.
Speaker 1: I mean, Chris, first of all, these are big allegations.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. I've seen an interview with Brian Flores on CBS.
Speaker 1: I mean to come out, you know, when he was
Speaker 1: potentially up for maybe other jobs at other teams. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are big allegations to make. They're huge, and I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, as he said himself, he's you know, this
Speaker 1: is a huge professional risk. He doesn't really expect to
Speaker 1: work in the NFL any more after this. UM. So
Speaker 1: you know, for whether or not the lawsuit goes anywhere,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of variables at the class action suit,
Speaker 1: he has to certify a class in order to perceive
Speaker 1: that way, they'll be you know, years of arguments, at
Speaker 1: least months of arguments, dismissal motions, things like that. But
Speaker 1: whether or not this goes anywhere, this lawsuit did a
Speaker 1: huge shot across the ball in the NFL, whether its
Speaker 1: steeds or not. Um, it's a this is an issue
Speaker 1: that has been plague in the league for for decades um.
Speaker 1: And they've been accused of not hiring black coaches. That's
Speaker 1: the whole reason the Rooney rulers. And that's a big
Speaker 1: part of his lawsuit, right, correct that that the Rooney
Speaker 1: rule is the sham that it's really not. It doesn't
Speaker 1: do anything because they don't actually hire black coaches. They
Speaker 1: just interviewed them, he says, he you know, got a
Speaker 1: sham interview with the Denver Broncos two years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Chris as you note that Giants, Dolphins, and Denver
Speaker 1: Broncos are all co defendants in the lawsuits. So you mentioned, Chris,
Speaker 1: that's it doesn't matter whether this lawsuit goes anywhere, and
Speaker 1: it could drag on for years. What could the implications
Speaker 1: be for the NFL? Well, certainly, you know, there could
Speaker 1: be some sort of settlement, you know, where the NFL
Speaker 1: kind of agrees to make some sort of changes in
Speaker 1: it's you know, in its functions and the way as
Speaker 1: the ruling rule or it forces it, you know, try
Speaker 1: to make some improvements. Um. But that's just assuming there's
Speaker 1: a settlement and doesn't go to court. I mean, that
Speaker 1: could take a long time. We'll see what happens. But
Speaker 1: the implications for the NFL legally are a lot less
Speaker 1: probably important than really just you know, in terms of
Speaker 1: its fan base, its perceptions, um, it's image and two weeks,
Speaker 1: like you guys said, the Super Bowls coming up. You
Speaker 1: guys will both be there. It's gonna be a huge
Speaker 1: topic of conversation. The NFL would prefer that this thick
Speaker 1: about the Rams, you know, and the I've forgotten the
Speaker 1: other team, but the Bengals, don't forget. My wife is
Speaker 1: going to be very very angry, Chris Will. She should
Speaker 1: be mad at me. All Cincinnati people should be there.
Speaker 1: I gotta say. All the playoff games, it's easy to
Speaker 1: be like, wait, wait, who finally wanted because it was
Speaker 1: such a toss up in those playoffs. Hey listen, Chris, Chris,
Speaker 1: just twenty seconds left here. Does he have to get
Speaker 1: those other members for this to ultimately become that class
Speaker 1: action and have some some bite real quickly. He does,
Speaker 1: but he, you know, his lawyer, Doug wig Door said
Speaker 1: that he has other people ready to sign or on
Speaker 1: others who said they have coaches that can kind of similarly, um,
Speaker 1: you know, prove the same allegations. So there's a good
Speaker 1: chance he could get of people in here. Whether gonna clap, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fascinating to watch crystal match. Legal reporter
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News on the phone from the Manhattan Federal
Speaker 1: Courthouse road. Yeah, but you let me drive? Oh no,
Speaker 1: no, no no, I want to drive. It's a good question.
Speaker 1: Good drive. This is the Drive to the Clothes on
Speaker 1: Bluebird Radio. All Right, we've got just about ten minutes
Speaker 1: left in today's trading session. It's been another wild week.
Speaker 1: We are at Loews of this session. You just heard
Speaker 1: that from Charlie Pellett, and of course we've been talking
Speaker 1: about the tech sell off, largely those disappointing results from
Speaker 1: Facebook owner Meta platforms. Also some concerns about persistently high
Speaker 1: inflation from the ECB that continues to weigh on the market.
Speaker 1: Let's get some thoughts from Tom Plump, President and chief
Speaker 1: investment officer at Plump Funds. Tom joins us once again
Speaker 1: on the phon from Madison, Wisconsin. Tom, we are really
Speaker 1: pleased to have you on a day like today when
Speaker 1: you take a look at the way that meta platforms
Speaker 1: is just reverberating throughout the market, especially the NAZAC one
Speaker 1: hundred other social media companies like Snap, Pinterest, Twitter, and more. Um,
Speaker 1: how do you try to understand what the role of
Speaker 1: one company can be on all these other companies. Result,
Speaker 1: it's great to be here even on a day like this,
Speaker 1: but you know what the market UM, well, we always
Speaker 1: used to talk about is the second derivative the rate
Speaker 1: of growth of the rate of growth. And when you
Speaker 1: see companies, even great companies like Facebook and PayPal and
Speaker 1: those companies show a moderation in their growth rate or decline,
Speaker 1: that's when the stock market starts punish them. And we've
Speaker 1: seen that on some of the companies, but of course
Speaker 1: other ones like UM, Microsofttion show the opposite. So UM,
Speaker 1: I think right now it's really key to be focusing
Speaker 1: on those companies that continued to sell acceleration in this
Speaker 1: market environment and some of them will see you tonight
Speaker 1: if Amazon, for example, reports UH that the cloud a
Speaker 1: WS is growing strong enough to continue to show in acceleration,
Speaker 1: or or if we're going to see some moderation because
Speaker 1: of the retail issues that we saw in some of
Speaker 1: these other companies. Hey Tom, we love talking with you.
Speaker 1: Your plumb balanced fund in the ninetcent for the past
Speaker 1: five years based on our data, meaning you be just
Speaker 1: about all of the other funds in the category, returning
Speaker 1: on average annually nearly twelve percent. You don't on Facebook,
Speaker 1: I think I I looked through the holdings and I
Speaker 1: did not see it. Why Well, we didn't own Facebook
Speaker 1: because we were thinking that there'd be a significant competition
Speaker 1: at some point, and and for much of this run,
Speaker 1: of course, we missed it. UH. So I can't make
Speaker 1: a lot of credit for the fact that we missed
Speaker 1: today because you missed the run up of the previous years.
Speaker 1: But we have been concerned about the sustainability, the fact
Speaker 1: that they are in the political uh target of governments, UH,
Speaker 1: and that there was gonna be a lot of uncertainty
Speaker 1: about what their next thing would be. Hey Tom, I
Speaker 1: want to go to Amazon because they're reporting after the
Speaker 1: bell today and you did mention them, but they are
Speaker 1: among the bigger holdings, uh, that you have in plumb Funds,
Speaker 1: accounting for more than two point seven percent of the holdings,
Speaker 1: about three point five million dollars worth of shares um.
Speaker 1: Amazon shares down about a quarter since July eight. What
Speaker 1: do we need to see from Amazon to to get
Speaker 1: back to where it was? Well, Uh, Amazon is you
Speaker 1: know obviously, when you've been as successful as they have,
Speaker 1: they have to continually come up with something new. And
Speaker 1: the you know, the cloud aws. If if they match
Speaker 1: Microsoft's numbers they're showing you know, thirty five plus growth
Speaker 1: in that area, that would be something that would be
Speaker 1: very um, you know, I think very big good news
Speaker 1: and continue to say that they're finding the next big thing. Um,
Speaker 1: it's really a question of how much is going to
Speaker 1: be on online sales versus you know, the what PayPal
Speaker 1: and those were saying is that there's a lot more
Speaker 1: people going into the stores. But I can tell you
Speaker 1: I think the Amazon is ingrained. It will continue to grow.
Speaker 1: It's just the question of the growth rate. Where would
Speaker 1: you be allocating new money because we have seen when
Speaker 1: the equity market sells off, Tom we have seen dip
Speaker 1: buyers and maybe took a while, but they did come back,
Speaker 1: and we've seen some rallies off of those losses. What
Speaker 1: would you where would you be buying? Where would you
Speaker 1: be putting new money to work? Carol? Is a great
Speaker 1: question because you know opportunities. Don't hume because the market
Speaker 1: is hitting new Hyes, they come on. You know the
Speaker 1: old cliche when they throw the baby out with the
Speaker 1: bath water. And there's some very good companies that are
Speaker 1: continued to show some acceleration that we think are good
Speaker 1: places to invest when this market gives you this opportunity.
Speaker 1: One of them, of course, is a master Card, which
Speaker 1: is our largest holding in the plum plants, where we
Speaker 1: look at a company that has a forty percent net
Speaker 1: profit margin, they've got crypto patents, they are recovering business
Speaker 1: in both business travel and expense, consumer travel, cross border transactions,
Speaker 1: and addressing the huge business to business market which is
Speaker 1: maybe five times as large as the consumer to business market.
Speaker 1: Right and who recently reported earnings along with Visa, and
Speaker 1: both of them really some eye popping numbers when it
Speaker 1: comes to spending on their platforms. Hey, Tom, where else
Speaker 1: are you guys playing? Cash right now. Well, um, there's
Speaker 1: a couple of smaller you know, one of the things
Speaker 1: that happened since the summer is a lot of the
Speaker 1: small emerging technology companies, especially in that software area, had
Speaker 1: been uh, really punished. And one of them is a
Speaker 1: little company called Latch, which is what we call the
Speaker 1: type of company that has hardware enabled software. And here
Speaker 1: we think that they are. They're basically the company that
Speaker 1: allows access and control over entry into apartment buildings. Uh,
Speaker 1: they're probably about thirty of the new apartment buildings. Small
Speaker 1: emerging company, but it's got probably a backlog that's almost
Speaker 1: eight times larger than their current sales. And so we're
Speaker 1: looking for a company again that's accelerating, maybe more than
Speaker 1: tripling their sales next year and even doubling it the
Speaker 1: following year. All right, And one other name, we have
Speaker 1: just about thirty forty seconds left. Oh, we like this
Speaker 1: company called Olo. And every one of us has been
Speaker 1: in that fast foodline. We've talked about this one that
Speaker 1: you can order ahead and uh, this is a company
Speaker 1: that's providing the software for a lot of the medium
Speaker 1: size chains like Denny's and Portillo said and shake check,
Speaker 1: um making it work so that the labor can be
Speaker 1: used so much more effectively. Bit beating up. It's down
Speaker 1: about this year, as we've seen a lot of these
Speaker 1: names under pressure. Tom Plumb be well. Good to check
Speaker 1: in with you, Tom Plum, He's president, chief investment officer
Speaker 1: over at Plump Funds on the phone from Madison, Wisconsin.
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