WEBVTT - Beijing Olympics Open Under Covid Cloud 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.840 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.160 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.000 analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.239 Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.200 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.880 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.080 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Hey, we're watching what's going 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.040 on with a macron. Cases are spreading in China during 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.280 the countdown to the Winter Olympics in Beijing, with a 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.720 leading ski jumper pulling out after she tested positive. Our 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.920 next guest, by the way, is an Olympian silver medalist 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.400 winning at the Athens Games for swimming back in two 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.960 thousand four ten. We're talking about Tara kirk Cell, Senior 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:52.479 Scholar at the Center for Health Security at Johns Hopkins 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.320 Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.400 Public Health that is supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:00.520 of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg philanthropist. Are It's great to 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:04.880 speak with you again. I'm wondering about the Olympics happening 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.040 in Beijing versus the Olympics that we saw in Tokyo. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:10.920 And these are both happening in the midst of a pandemic. 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:15.920 Why is it so much more difficult for athletes in Beijing? Yeah, well, 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:17.920 thanks for having me on the show. You know, I 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.759 think that the Tokyo Olympics proof that you can hold 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.840 of Olympics during a pandemic, But the difficulty level is 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:28.399 so much greater this time around for China. First, because 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.840 we're dealing with the o maicon variant instead of the 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.560 delta variants. Macon variant is much more transmissible and seems 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.080 to be able to um effect have more breakthrough cases 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.920 for people who are vaccinated. And then the second reason 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.840 is because China has this zero COVID approach to COVID nineteen, 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.720 and so the margin for error there just really isn't 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.040 a marginal for error because they can't let it get out, 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:55.360 they can't make any mistakes. So do you think it 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.440 was smart that they went ahead? With the Games. Yeah, 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.080 I mean I think that that it's there. They've had 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.400 some competing priorities, right, they want to be able to 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.520 hold the games. They put a lot of investment into it. 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.440 I think that you know, it can be done. Um. 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.400 But at the same time, you know, it's very hard 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.880 for them to do that, um and still push this 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.240 COVID zero COVID approach. I mean, I think at some 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.480 point they're going to have to say, um, you know, 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.000 then what what are we gonna do? How are we 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:22.839 going to move away from zero COVID? And I think 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.000 that um, you know, the games maybe the start of 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.520 how they're going to think about that. So how should 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.680 how should we watch it as as spectators? How should 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.640 we look at it as spectators and try to understand 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:33.519 what these Olympians are going through? I mean the big 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:35.680 part of the Olympics, of course, is understanding the athletes, 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.120 learning about their backstories. The experience that you had at 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.720 the Olympics in Athenes in two thousand four, that's got 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.120 to be completely different than what these athletes are doing 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:44.880 right now. It doesn't sound that fun to actually be 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:49.280 an Olympian right now. Well, I mean the first thing 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.640 you that's the most important to continue in their export. 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.080 And this is still you know, even with sort of 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:57.640 the fun drained out of you know, the partying and 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.400 the you know, gathering, the camaraderie right about meeting so 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.640 many people rotary, even with that dreamed out, I still 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.040 do feel like you've trained all your life, or at 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.920 least for the last four years, to you know, compete 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:11.760 on the world stage. And I think that that is 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.160 that still remains and that's still valuable UM. And so 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.840 I think that's why athletes they're still trying to participate 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:20.320 UM and still going through all the trouble of these 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.200 tests and everything that they need to to get to 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.240 get UM, you know, to Beijing and to compete. I 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.200 think it's it's still worth it. But you're right, there 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.760 is something lost here. So how do you feel like 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:34.600 once we get through this? I wonder. I do think 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.520 this is going to be with us for a long time, 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.160 at least based on the conversations we have with you 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.400 and your team at Johns Hopkins and others in the 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:47.840 healthcare professions. UM, I don't know. Well, it sounds like 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.520 we've learned a lot. We're ready for the next one. 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.600 I don't know. How do you see it? Well, I 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:55.520 think when it comes to COVID nineteen, you're right, and 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.240 it's going to be with us for a long time. 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.480 I think that for the most part, people who have 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:03.640 been backnated UM have a really good, good protection against 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.360 severe disease. So I think it's something that won't be 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.560 sort of this front burner UM, you know, emergency anymore. 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.280 Will probably see some searches in cases where you have 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.400 to put a mask back on if the cases got 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:15.440 really high, And you might worry about hospitals because you 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.159 know there's some people who just won't get vaccinated UM 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.120 or you know who will end up in the hospital. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.279 But I think overall we're just going to be dealing 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.599 with it. Now. Does that make us ready for the 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.320 next one? I think that there's a question there because 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:30.200 public health has lost a lot of trust. But people 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.360 have lost a lot of trust in public health, and 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:33.960 it's going to be the you know, the work of 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.640 a generation of public health leaders to try to rebuild that, 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.040 because I think trust is the most important thing when 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.800 it comes to pandemic response. Well, how do they do 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.320 that in this last this last phase of vaccine rollout 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.840 for kids under the age of five. How does how 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.800 does the federal government say that these shots are safe 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.440 for the youngest? Sure, well, I think that it's proving 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.919 the data that people can look at it and feels 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:57.880 confident in it. But I also think it's not the 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.839 federal government that should be telling people, you know, like 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.360 here's what you should do. I think it's really about 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.800 helping people have these conversations with people they trust. I mean, 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.320 you either trust the government or you don't, and we're 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:10.680 not going to be able to change that in the 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.760 next few months. So I think that really it's about 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.640 you know, JOHNS. Hopkins has um you know, published a 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.960 new um how to talk to you know, Ambassador Vaccine 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.839 Ambassador training to how to talk to parents about vaccinating 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.320 their kids. Right, these types of conversations that happen, you know, 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.480 on the sidelines of sports events, on the bleachers of 0:05:28.600 --> 0:05:30.760 us at a school meet, you know, or you know, 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.599 amongst other parents, people they trust at church, those types 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.839 of things. That's where we sort of will make these games. 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.680 I don't think it's you know, having someone from the 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.720 CDC coming out saying anything, all right, we gotta run 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:46.280 these conversations. Ter good, Thank you. Tara kirk Sol She's 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.559 senior scholar at the Center for Health Security JOHNS Hopkins 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.800 Bloomberg School of Public Health, joining us on the phone 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.440 from Washington. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week, and this 0:05:54.800 --> 0:06:01.440 is Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bomberg Business Week with 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:06.320 Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.280 I want to get to this week's cover story. Back 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.720 in June of last year, Hong Kong authority shutting down 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.159 Apple Daily. It was a popular newspaper aligned with the 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.400 city's democracy movement. It's become clear that China's attack on 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.200 the publisher was really a template for a broader crackdown 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.400 when it comes to Hong Kong and democracy in Hong Kong. 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.320 This story is the cover of the new issue of 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.640 Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's available on news stands, on 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.560 the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com Slash business Week. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.320 The story written by Ian Marlowe, Asia Government senior reporter 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.479 for Bloomberg News. He's with us now on the phone 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.200 from Canada. Ian. This is congratulations on the cover. By 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.880 the way, it's just a really really important story and 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.240 a really important topic. I wanted to start off with 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:49.479 with more about what Apple Daily is or was. Yeah, 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:54.120 thank you no. Apple Daily was an enormously popular newspaper 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.960 in Hong Kong. Just to give you a sent there 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.799 were roughly three point eight million registered users on the website, 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.000 which is roughly half the city's population, and just before 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.040 they were shut down, they had more than more than 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:12.640 six hundred thousands paying digital subscribers. So very popular with 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.840 a huge source of news. But it was also at 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.520 the heart to some extent of the pro democracy movement 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.120 in Hong Kong. It was owned by Jimmy Lai, a 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.760 very wealthy tycoon in Hong Kong who, unlike the other 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.160 uh you know, establishment figures in that city, was willing 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:35.119 to use his resources, his financial firepower to push back 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.880 against China, to push back against what they were doing 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.160 in Hong Kong with regards to pushing the National Security 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.400 Law through uh you know, jailing all these pro democracy 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.840 advocates and those sorts of things. So he was a 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.960 prime target not just for the local Hong Kong government, 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.520 for Beijing more broadly, and they had singled him out 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:58.080 numerous times. Uh you know, for being a sort of 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.520 rabble rouser in Hong Kong. And when the government went 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.440 after his paper, they really went after it. They froze 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:09.080 the bank account, they arrested the top staff. There were 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:13.080 five hundred police officers sent to raid the headquarters in 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:17.360 Hong Kong. This was unprecedented in a city that is 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.560 not just the global financial center, but was also a 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:26.800 sort of regional base for international media companies, from from 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:31.080 Bloomberg to CNN to two others. So it was the 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.960 shut bound was shocked, but it was also to a 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.160 large degree template for what Beijing wanted to do with 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.520 Hong Kong in the future. And since it was shut, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.719 things have only accelerated further. You know, Ian, I think 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.840 about I worked at the Wall Street Journal on a 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.840 broadcast called the Wall Street Journal Report, and I mean, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.520 Hong Kong was this safe zone, right and you know, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.440 um when it came to business markets, uh, you name it, uh, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.480 and everybody kind of look to Hong Kong is maybe 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.960 a sign of what was hopefully to come were broadly 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:08.840 in China, and now we're finding out that that's not 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.480 the case. By targeting Apple Daily, right, it could have 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.520 targeted you know, a lot of things initially, but by 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:20.960 really going aggressively after Apple Daily, that tells you what, yeah, 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.560 I mean, it basically tells you that, like in mainland China, 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.479 there is just zero tolerance for anything that could represent 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:33.880 an alternate power center in Hong Kong, and systematically, bit 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:38.080 by bit, the government had gone after the opposition politicians 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:41.040 in Hong Kong, Tho's democracy advocates who were actually working 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.840 within the system. They went after Apple Daily, you know, 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.640 right off the bat, closed that that was a huge 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:52.160 source of opposition support. Then they started going after smaller targets. 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:57.319 They started going after charity NGOs, some of the organizations 0:09:57.360 --> 0:10:01.280 that had promoted some of the peaceful prot has over 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:05.920 over the past you know, twenty years um, and that basically, 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:09.560 one by one sort of dismantled anything that could represent 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.400 any threat at all to China getting its way in 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:18.520 Hong Kong. And and Apple Daily was absolutely, without you know, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.080 any doubt, it was the biggest one there. And I 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.679 think that the big thing about Apple Daily, uh closure 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.920 was you know what happened. Everyone was saying, well, who 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.120 Who's next? And I don't think anyone's really even asking 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:36.839 that question anymore because everything that's happening people guests from 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.280 the outset of the National Security Law of being put 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:44.359 down in June that basically gone after anything that represents 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.400 memorials to the tmmms, where anyone that was agitating in 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.319 a labor union, all those sorts of things by the 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:54.320 and now even just this week we saw the University 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.439 of Hong Kong, which is one of the most prestigious 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.360 universities in the city, just had a visa rejected or 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:02.640 a researcher who is meant to come into the city 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.760 just to do uh research on LGBT key rates. And 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.640 so it's sort of a endless procession here where you know, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:15.640 anything can be considered somewhat uh anti establishment if the 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.199 authorities really feel like it's it's a threat to them. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.559 So um, you know. And the other thing here is 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.320 that Apple Daily was a business. It was it was 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:29.000 owned by a publicly listed company. Jimmy Lai had sententy 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.760 one percent of the shares in that company. He was 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.280 overruled and he was, uh, there's a government order for 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:38.000 him not to exercise his voting rights. And then the 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:41.560 government throws the accounts without any resource to the courts, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.559 and then company was shut down. So that's something that 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.520 I think a lot of people in Hong Kong are 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.000 concerned about because essentially the sky's the limit now in 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.800 terms of what the government can use this law for, 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.640 and they're putting it into every piece of legislation they can, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:04.559 from film sent for ship laws to tax guidance or charities. Uh, 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.679 it's all over the place with language about national security 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:11.400 and acting contrary to the interest of national security. It's 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.720 all it's all very vague, and I think people just 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.400 actually now kind of know which way the slide is 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.080 going here. Well, it's a must read. It's the cover 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.960 story of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, and we really appreciate 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.520 catching up with Bloomberg News Asia Government Senior Reporter Ian Marlowe. 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.800 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:34.880 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All Right, so, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.760 how's your day going? Uh, not so great if you 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.559 are Metal platforms also known as Facebook company shares, experience 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:42.480 a one day crash that may rank as the worst 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.640 in stock market history. Ten yea Mark Zuckerberg losing some 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.880 thirty billion dollars in net worth as well with stock 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:52.680 plunge like this, it's like unbelievable. And we've seen a 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.480 great story on the Bloomberg Naomi Nicks putting it out 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.840 about Mark Zuckerberg actually talking to his employees. Let's get more. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.120 Bloomberg News Tech team leader Sarafy, she too has an 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.880 interesting column that's out. She's on the phone from San Francisco. 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.960 She knows this company so so well. She's the author 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.840 of No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram. Sarah Fryer, 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:13.880 It is great to have you back with us. I 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.839 remember from reading your book close you know, at this point, 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:18.440 close to a couple of years ago, the book about 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.960 Instagram um No Filter The Inside Story of Instagram, that 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:25.880 Mark Zuckerberg is so paranoid about competition. How do you 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.320 think he's feeling right now seeing that Facebook user growth 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.200 has stalled and that TikTok is a real competitor where 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.400 people are spending, especially young people, a lot of time. 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:40.440 I mean, this is this is his deep fear that 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.720 he's had at the One of the reasons that Facebook 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.560 has continued to grow for so long is because of 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:52.040 zuckerberg paranoia. The growth team that he has um basically 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.520 monitoring every possible reason that people could have to leave 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.200 Facebook and trying to fix that as soon as possible. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:01.440 And one of the reasons for that is is the 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.920 network effects. The thing that made Facebook so powerful, um 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.600 the fact that if somebody uses uses one network, um, 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.199 other people are more likely to use it. It has 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.200 also a test scating negative effect. If people leave the network, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.000 it's suddenly becomes less valuable for the remaining users. And 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:23.560 so Zuckerberg never wanted Facebook to reach the point where 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.160 it gets into a death spiral, and and this could 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:31.080 be that point. So I think it's very concerning to 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.880 people at meta and UM, I think that's why they're 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.520 putting all their eggs in the metaverse. Does does the 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.400 Facebook saw this coming because of what it sees in 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.920 the internal data and perhaps because of the pivot that 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.640 it announced a few months ago of going into the metaverse? 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.840 You've covered Facebook for years? Is this the most pivotal 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:54.480 point that you've seen for the company from a business perspective? 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.240 I think so, I mean, I think I think Listen, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.440 they don't have a lot of options in the past. 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:05.000 Maybe they could have acquired a great upstart social network 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.920 to breathe new life into this into Facebook. You know, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.760 they can't make the kind of acquisition right now because 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:15.760 of antitrust pressure. Um. They could you pull some levers 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.280 to get people to share more, um, but they've already 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.720 done that. So I think it's it's really hard for them, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.920 especially when you consider that their their ad targeting is 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:29.120 going to become less useful and it's gonna be less 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.600 it's less easy for them to tell advertisers how well 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:36.280 their ads performed because of Apple changes to tracking asking 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:38.240 users to agree with tracking, and a lot of users 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.360 are saying no, don't track me, so that those are like, 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.080 this is a time where you're seeing multiple existential threats 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:51.200 to facebooks business model and their way out of it. Um. 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:56.400 They the short term way out is their TikTok copycat product, 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.120 which is real which you know it could it could work. 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:02.480 I mean YouTube Shore because it is also a TikTok product, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.880 copycat product that's done pretty well and maybe real good too. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.280 I haven't seen a lot there, but it looks to 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.720 me like a lot of the stuff is reposted from chickof. 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.240 So there's that, and then there's the betaverse of that. 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.160 The latter is something that requires all of us to 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.960 want it to live and work in a virtual world, 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.600 which is going to be Yeah, it's kind of a 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.360 pie in the scared dream. I'm not ready to leave 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.080 the real world. I'm just gonna put it out there. Hey. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:30.840 Having said that, um, we just we're talking about the 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.560 markets and we're talking about meta Facebook with our TV 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.360 colleagues and Romain Bostick bringing up that, you know, maybe 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:41.160 it's time that Mark Zuckerberg steps aside running the company. 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.400 Maybe there needs to be some new people coming in. 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:45.480 We've seen this at a lot of these whether it 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.920 was Google. I think about when Eric Schmidt came in. 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.400 You see this sometimes changing where the founder steps away 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.960 for a moment. Is that something that we need to 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.840 be thinking about or should be? It depends how bad 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:05.400 this gets. We've seen Zuckerberg pull up from a downturn before. Uh. 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.439 You know, I'm sure some employees are looking at this 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:11.840 and thinking it's a great buying opportunity. Um. But but yeah, 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.359 it does seem it does seem pretty existential. That said, 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.080 who else is going to be the one to drive 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:23.480 this this um pass into the metaverse. There is so 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.840 much money invested on three point for more than three 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:31.280 billion in operating loss this past quarter, that there's no 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.720 turning back. They've they've put all the resources into play 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.720 there and and if he's got the vision like this 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.159 is he's really the guy that's going to have to 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:45.520 pull it through. UM, I would expect. And so that 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.960 makes things a little complicated. But money makers are really 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.080 Facebook and Instagram. Sara, are you sitting down with Mark 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.920 Zuckerberg right now, You've got about forty seconds left here? 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.800 What do you ask him? I just want to know 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:04.119 if if he really thinks that that they that they 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:08.600 can afford to put products like Facebook and Instagram into 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.399 a sort of maintenance mode, like sort of change the 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.679 focus of the metaverse. It seems like there's still so 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.560 much to fix on those products. UM. And I just 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.360 wonder if if that's going to hurt them long term, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:25.480 that they're not um focused on solving the problems with 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.920 their existing networks instead focus on the future future effort. Alright, 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.440 gonna run. Sarah, Thank you, Thank you, Sarah Fire, Big 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.080 Tech team leader, Bloomberg News. Check out her book if 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.200 you haven't read it already, No Filter, The Inside Story 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.080 of Instagram, Facebook Shares right now, Tim down worst day 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.760 in the company's history by far, and talk about a 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.040 haircut on that market cap. You're listening to Bloomberg Business 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.960 Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.480 on Bloomberg Radio. Alright, just one week from now, Tim 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.040 and I are going to be out in Sunny l A, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.040 just ahead of the Super Bowl and at the Bloomberg 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.640 Power Players Smit, the gathering of who's who in sports, 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.760 including NFL team owners, players of all sports, agents, broadcasters 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.240 and so much more. No doubt we will be talking 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.439 about the explosive lawsuit filed by former Miami Dolphins head 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:16.040 coach Brian Flora. So let's get some reporting on this 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:18.439 and what the owner of the Dolphins is now saying 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.440 with us right now is Bloomberg News legal reporter Christal Match. 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.080 She's on the phone from Manhattan, the Manhattan Federal Courthouse. 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.920 Hey Chris, nice to have you here with Tim and myself. 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:31.560 So what is the owner talking about? We're talking about 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.399 Stephen Ross. Yeah, So Mr Ross is um you know, 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.480 the humerently denying the allegations in the lawsuit and most 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:42.760 substantially the allegation that he offered Brian Flora's a hundred 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.879 thousand dollars per game to lose, basically the tank so 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.199 that the team would have a worse record and have 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.800 a better shot at one of the top draft picks. UM. 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.800 He's saying, you know, he never made these Uh. He's 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.440 welcomed the NFL's investigation. UM, and he's promising to fight 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.320 these allegations. In the lawsuit, Florist does allege that his 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.760 refusal to tank games led to a clash with Stephen Ross, 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.560 who was mad that the team won five games that season, 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.000 costing them a chance of the top overall draft pick. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.640 I mean, Chris, first of all, these are big allegations. 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.600 It's interesting. I've seen an interview with Brian Flores on CBS. 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.679 I mean to come out, you know, when he was 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:27.720 potentially up for maybe other jobs at other teams. I mean, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:32.320 these are big allegations to make. They're huge, and I mean, 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.359 you know, as he said himself, he's you know, this 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.800 is a huge professional risk. He doesn't really expect to 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.879 work in the NFL any more after this. UM. So 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.320 you know, for whether or not the lawsuit goes anywhere, 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.000 there's a lot of variables at the class action suit, 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.080 he has to certify a class in order to perceive 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:52.000 that way, they'll be you know, years of arguments, at 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.199 least months of arguments, dismissal motions, things like that. But 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.840 whether or not this goes anywhere, this lawsuit did a 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.320 huge shot across the ball in the NFL, whether its 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.080 steeds or not. Um, it's a this is an issue 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:07.280 that has been plague in the league for for decades um. 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.240 And they've been accused of not hiring black coaches. That's 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:12.280 the whole reason the Rooney rulers. And that's a big 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.840 part of his lawsuit, right, correct that that the Rooney 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.960 rule is the sham that it's really not. It doesn't 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.760 do anything because they don't actually hire black coaches. They 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:22.879 just interviewed them, he says, he you know, got a 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.760 sham interview with the Denver Broncos two years ago. Yeah, 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.280 and Chris as you note that Giants, Dolphins, and Denver 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.760 Broncos are all co defendants in the lawsuits. So you mentioned, Chris, 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.719 that's it doesn't matter whether this lawsuit goes anywhere, and 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:37.000