1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carole Masser and I'm 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: plus technology, politics, economics, all purtnising the power of Business 5 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 6 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 8 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: You can also listen to our radio show at two 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 10 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. Hey, we're watching what's going 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: on with a macron. Cases are spreading in China during 12 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: the countdown to the Winter Olympics in Beijing, with a 13 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: leading ski jumper pulling out after she tested positive. Our 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: next guest, by the way, is an Olympian silver medalist 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: winning at the Athens Games for swimming back in two 16 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: thousand four ten. We're talking about Tara kirk Cell, Senior 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: Scholar at the Center for Health Security at Johns Hopkins 18 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: Bloomberg School of Public Health. The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School 19 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: Public Health that is supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg philanthropist. Are It's great to 21 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: speak with you again. I'm wondering about the Olympics happening 22 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: in Beijing versus the Olympics that we saw in Tokyo. 23 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: And these are both happening in the midst of a pandemic. 24 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: Why is it so much more difficult for athletes in Beijing? Yeah, well, 25 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on the show. You know, I 26 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: think that the Tokyo Olympics proof that you can hold 27 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: of Olympics during a pandemic, But the difficulty level is 28 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: so much greater this time around for China. First, because 29 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: we're dealing with the o maicon variant instead of the 30 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: delta variants. Macon variant is much more transmissible and seems 31 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: to be able to um effect have more breakthrough cases 32 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: for people who are vaccinated. And then the second reason 33 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: is because China has this zero COVID approach to COVID nineteen, 34 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: and so the margin for error there just really isn't 35 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: a marginal for error because they can't let it get out, 36 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: they can't make any mistakes. So do you think it 37 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: was smart that they went ahead? With the Games. Yeah, 38 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: I mean I think that that it's there. They've had 39 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: some competing priorities, right, they want to be able to 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: hold the games. They put a lot of investment into it. 41 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: I think that you know, it can be done. Um. 42 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, it's very hard 43 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: for them to do that, um and still push this 44 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: COVID zero COVID approach. I mean, I think at some 45 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: point they're going to have to say, um, you know, 46 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: then what what are we gonna do? How are we 47 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:22,839 Speaker 1: going to move away from zero COVID? And I think 48 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: that um, you know, the games maybe the start of 49 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: how they're going to think about that. So how should 50 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: how should we watch it as as spectators? How should 51 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: we look at it as spectators and try to understand 52 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: what these Olympians are going through? I mean the big 53 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: part of the Olympics, of course, is understanding the athletes, 54 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: learning about their backstories. The experience that you had at 55 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: the Olympics in Athenes in two thousand four, that's got 56 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: to be completely different than what these athletes are doing 57 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: right now. It doesn't sound that fun to actually be 58 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: an Olympian right now. Well, I mean the first thing 59 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: you that's the most important to continue in their export. 60 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 1: And this is still you know, even with sort of 61 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: the fun drained out of you know, the partying and 62 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: the you know, gathering, the camaraderie right about meeting so 63 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: many people rotary, even with that dreamed out, I still 64 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: do feel like you've trained all your life, or at 65 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: least for the last four years, to you know, compete 66 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: on the world stage. And I think that that is 67 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: that still remains and that's still valuable UM. And so 68 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: I think that's why athletes they're still trying to participate 69 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: UM and still going through all the trouble of these 70 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: tests and everything that they need to to get to 71 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: get UM, you know, to Beijing and to compete. I 72 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: think it's it's still worth it. But you're right, there 73 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: is something lost here. So how do you feel like 74 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: once we get through this? I wonder. I do think 75 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: this is going to be with us for a long time, 76 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: at least based on the conversations we have with you 77 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: and your team at Johns Hopkins and others in the 78 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: healthcare professions. UM, I don't know. Well, it sounds like 79 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: we've learned a lot. We're ready for the next one. 80 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. How do you see it? Well, I 81 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: think when it comes to COVID nineteen, you're right, and 82 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: it's going to be with us for a long time. 83 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: I think that for the most part, people who have 84 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: been backnated UM have a really good, good protection against 85 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: severe disease. So I think it's something that won't be 86 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: sort of this front burner UM, you know, emergency anymore. 87 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: Will probably see some searches in cases where you have 88 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: to put a mask back on if the cases got 89 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: really high, And you might worry about hospitals because you 90 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: know there's some people who just won't get vaccinated UM 91 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: or you know who will end up in the hospital. 92 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: But I think overall we're just going to be dealing 93 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: with it. Now. Does that make us ready for the 94 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: next one? I think that there's a question there because 95 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: public health has lost a lot of trust. But people 96 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: have lost a lot of trust in public health, and 97 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: it's going to be the you know, the work of 98 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: a generation of public health leaders to try to rebuild that, 99 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: because I think trust is the most important thing when 100 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: it comes to pandemic response. Well, how do they do 101 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: that in this last this last phase of vaccine rollout 102 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: for kids under the age of five. How does how 103 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: does the federal government say that these shots are safe 104 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: for the youngest? Sure, well, I think that it's proving 105 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: the data that people can look at it and feels 106 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: confident in it. But I also think it's not the 107 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: federal government that should be telling people, you know, like 108 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: here's what you should do. I think it's really about 109 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: helping people have these conversations with people they trust. I mean, 110 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: you either trust the government or you don't, and we're 111 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: not going to be able to change that in the 112 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: next few months. So I think that really it's about 113 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: you know, JOHNS. Hopkins has um you know, published a 114 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: new um how to talk to you know, Ambassador Vaccine 115 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: Ambassador training to how to talk to parents about vaccinating 116 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: their kids. Right, these types of conversations that happen, you know, 117 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: on the sidelines of sports events, on the bleachers of 118 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: us at a school meet, you know, or you know, 119 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: amongst other parents, people they trust at church, those types 120 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: of things. That's where we sort of will make these games. 121 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: I don't think it's you know, having someone from the 122 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 1: CDC coming out saying anything, all right, we gotta run 123 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: these conversations. Ter good, Thank you. Tara kirk Sol She's 124 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,559 Speaker 1: senior scholar at the Center for Health Security JOHNS Hopkins 125 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg School of Public Health, joining us on the phone 126 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: from Washington. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week, and this 127 00:05:54,800 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bomberg Business Week with 128 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. 129 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: I want to get to this week's cover story. Back 130 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,720 Speaker 1: in June of last year, Hong Kong authority shutting down 131 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: Apple Daily. It was a popular newspaper aligned with the 132 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: city's democracy movement. It's become clear that China's attack on 133 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: the publisher was really a template for a broader crackdown 134 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: when it comes to Hong Kong and democracy in Hong Kong. 135 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: This story is the cover of the new issue of 136 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's available on news stands, on 137 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com Slash business Week. 138 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: The story written by Ian Marlowe, Asia Government senior reporter 139 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg News. He's with us now on the phone 140 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: from Canada. Ian. This is congratulations on the cover. By 141 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: the way, it's just a really really important story and 142 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: a really important topic. I wanted to start off with 143 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: with more about what Apple Daily is or was. Yeah, 144 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: thank you no. Apple Daily was an enormously popular newspaper 145 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong. Just to give you a sent there 146 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,799 Speaker 1: were roughly three point eight million registered users on the website, 147 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: which is roughly half the city's population, and just before 148 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: they were shut down, they had more than more than 149 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: six hundred thousands paying digital subscribers. So very popular with 150 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: a huge source of news. But it was also at 151 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: the heart to some extent of the pro democracy movement 152 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong. It was owned by Jimmy Lai, a 153 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: very wealthy tycoon in Hong Kong who, unlike the other 154 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: uh you know, establishment figures in that city, was willing 155 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,119 Speaker 1: to use his resources, his financial firepower to push back 156 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: against China, to push back against what they were doing 157 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong with regards to pushing the National Security 158 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: Law through uh you know, jailing all these pro democracy 159 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: advocates and those sorts of things. So he was a 160 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: prime target not just for the local Hong Kong government, 161 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: for Beijing more broadly, and they had singled him out 162 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: numerous times. Uh you know, for being a sort of 163 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: rabble rouser in Hong Kong. And when the government went 164 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: after his paper, they really went after it. They froze 165 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: the bank account, they arrested the top staff. There were 166 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: five hundred police officers sent to raid the headquarters in 167 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. This was unprecedented in a city that is 168 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: not just the global financial center, but was also a 169 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: sort of regional base for international media companies, from from 170 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg to CNN to two others. So it was the 171 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: shut bound was shocked, but it was also to a 172 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: large degree template for what Beijing wanted to do with 173 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Hong Kong in the future. And since it was shut, 174 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: things have only accelerated further. You know, Ian, I think 175 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: about I worked at the Wall Street Journal on a 176 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: broadcast called the Wall Street Journal Report, and I mean, 177 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: Hong Kong was this safe zone, right and you know, 178 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: um when it came to business markets, uh, you name it, uh, 179 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: and everybody kind of look to Hong Kong is maybe 180 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: a sign of what was hopefully to come were broadly 181 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: in China, and now we're finding out that that's not 182 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: the case. By targeting Apple Daily, right, it could have 183 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: targeted you know, a lot of things initially, but by 184 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: really going aggressively after Apple Daily, that tells you what, yeah, 185 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it basically tells you that, like in mainland China, 186 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,479 Speaker 1: there is just zero tolerance for anything that could represent 187 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: an alternate power center in Hong Kong, and systematically, bit 188 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: by bit, the government had gone after the opposition politicians 189 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: in Hong Kong, Tho's democracy advocates who were actually working 190 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: within the system. They went after Apple Daily, you know, 191 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: right off the bat, closed that that was a huge 192 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: source of opposition support. Then they started going after smaller targets. 193 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: They started going after charity NGOs, some of the organizations 194 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: that had promoted some of the peaceful prot has over 195 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: over the past you know, twenty years um, and that basically, 196 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: one by one sort of dismantled anything that could represent 197 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: any threat at all to China getting its way in 198 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. And and Apple Daily was absolutely, without you know, 199 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: any doubt, it was the biggest one there. And I 200 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: think that the big thing about Apple Daily, uh closure 201 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: was you know what happened. Everyone was saying, well, who 202 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: Who's next? And I don't think anyone's really even asking 203 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:36,839 Speaker 1: that question anymore because everything that's happening people guests from 204 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: the outset of the National Security Law of being put 205 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,359 Speaker 1: down in June that basically gone after anything that represents 206 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: memorials to the tmmms, where anyone that was agitating in 207 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: a labor union, all those sorts of things by the 208 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: and now even just this week we saw the University 209 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: of Hong Kong, which is one of the most prestigious 210 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: universities in the city, just had a visa rejected or 211 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: a researcher who is meant to come into the city 212 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: just to do uh research on LGBT key rates. And 213 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: so it's sort of a endless procession here where you know, 214 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: anything can be considered somewhat uh anti establishment if the 215 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 1: authorities really feel like it's it's a threat to them. 216 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: So um, you know. And the other thing here is 217 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: that Apple Daily was a business. It was it was 218 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: owned by a publicly listed company. Jimmy Lai had sententy 219 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: one percent of the shares in that company. He was 220 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: overruled and he was, uh, there's a government order for 221 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: him not to exercise his voting rights. And then the 222 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: government throws the accounts without any resource to the courts, 223 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: and then company was shut down. So that's something that 224 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people in Hong Kong are 225 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: concerned about because essentially the sky's the limit now in 226 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: terms of what the government can use this law for, 227 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 1: and they're putting it into every piece of legislation they can, 228 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: from film sent for ship laws to tax guidance or charities. Uh, 229 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: it's all over the place with language about national security 230 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: and acting contrary to the interest of national security. It's 231 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: all it's all very vague, and I think people just 232 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: actually now kind of know which way the slide is 233 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: going here. Well, it's a must read. It's the cover 234 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 1: story of Bloomberg Business Week magazine, and we really appreciate 235 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: catching up with Bloomberg News Asia Government Senior Reporter Ian Marlowe. 236 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg 237 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. All Right, so, 238 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: how's your day going? Uh, not so great if you 239 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: are Metal platforms also known as Facebook company shares, experience 240 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: a one day crash that may rank as the worst 241 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: in stock market history. Ten yea Mark Zuckerberg losing some 242 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: thirty billion dollars in net worth as well with stock 243 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: plunge like this, it's like unbelievable. And we've seen a 244 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: great story on the Bloomberg Naomi Nicks putting it out 245 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: about Mark Zuckerberg actually talking to his employees. Let's get more. 246 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Tech team leader Sarafy, she too has an 247 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: interesting column that's out. She's on the phone from San Francisco. 248 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: She knows this company so so well. She's the author 249 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: of No Filter, The Inside Story of Instagram. Sarah Fryer, 250 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: It is great to have you back with us. I 251 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 1: remember from reading your book close you know, at this point, 252 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: close to a couple of years ago, the book about 253 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: Instagram um No Filter The Inside Story of Instagram, that 254 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg is so paranoid about competition. How do you 255 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: think he's feeling right now seeing that Facebook user growth 256 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: has stalled and that TikTok is a real competitor where 257 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: people are spending, especially young people, a lot of time. 258 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is his deep fear that 259 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: he's had at the One of the reasons that Facebook 260 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: has continued to grow for so long is because of 261 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: zuckerberg paranoia. The growth team that he has um basically 262 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: monitoring every possible reason that people could have to leave 263 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: Facebook and trying to fix that as soon as possible. 264 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons for that is is the 265 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: network effects. The thing that made Facebook so powerful, um 266 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: the fact that if somebody uses uses one network, um, 267 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 1: other people are more likely to use it. It has 268 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: also a test scating negative effect. If people leave the network, 269 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: it's suddenly becomes less valuable for the remaining users. And 270 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: so Zuckerberg never wanted Facebook to reach the point where 271 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: it gets into a death spiral, and and this could 272 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: be that point. So I think it's very concerning to 273 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: people at meta and UM, I think that's why they're 274 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: putting all their eggs in the metaverse. Does does the 275 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: Facebook saw this coming because of what it sees in 276 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: the internal data and perhaps because of the pivot that 277 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: it announced a few months ago of going into the metaverse? 278 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: You've covered Facebook for years? Is this the most pivotal 279 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: point that you've seen for the company from a business perspective? 280 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, I think I think Listen, 281 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of options in the past. 282 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: Maybe they could have acquired a great upstart social network 283 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: to breathe new life into this into Facebook. You know, 284 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: they can't make the kind of acquisition right now because 285 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: of antitrust pressure. Um. They could you pull some levers 286 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: to get people to share more, um, but they've already 287 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: done that. So I think it's it's really hard for them, 288 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: especially when you consider that their their ad targeting is 289 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: going to become less useful and it's gonna be less 290 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: it's less easy for them to tell advertisers how well 291 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: their ads performed because of Apple changes to tracking asking 292 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: users to agree with tracking, and a lot of users 293 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: are saying no, don't track me, so that those are like, 294 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: this is a time where you're seeing multiple existential threats 295 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: to facebooks business model and their way out of it. Um. 296 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: They the short term way out is their TikTok copycat product, 297 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: which is real which you know it could it could work. 298 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: I mean YouTube Shore because it is also a TikTok product, 299 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: copycat product that's done pretty well and maybe real good too. 300 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: I haven't seen a lot there, but it looks to 301 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: me like a lot of the stuff is reposted from chickof. 302 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: So there's that, and then there's the betaverse of that. 303 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: The latter is something that requires all of us to 304 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: want it to live and work in a virtual world, 305 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: which is going to be Yeah, it's kind of a 306 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: pie in the scared dream. I'm not ready to leave 307 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: the real world. I'm just gonna put it out there. Hey. 308 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: Having said that, um, we just we're talking about the 309 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: markets and we're talking about meta Facebook with our TV 310 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: colleagues and Romain Bostick bringing up that, you know, maybe 311 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: it's time that Mark Zuckerberg steps aside running the company. 312 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: Maybe there needs to be some new people coming in. 313 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: We've seen this at a lot of these whether it 314 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: was Google. I think about when Eric Schmidt came in. 315 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: You see this sometimes changing where the founder steps away 316 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: for a moment. Is that something that we need to 317 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: be thinking about or should be? It depends how bad 318 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: this gets. We've seen Zuckerberg pull up from a downturn before. Uh. 319 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure some employees are looking at this 320 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: and thinking it's a great buying opportunity. Um. But but yeah, 321 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: it does seem it does seem pretty existential. That said, 322 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: who else is going to be the one to drive 323 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: this this um pass into the metaverse. There is so 324 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: much money invested on three point for more than three 325 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: billion in operating loss this past quarter, that there's no 326 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: turning back. They've they've put all the resources into play 327 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: there and and if he's got the vision like this 328 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: is he's really the guy that's going to have to 329 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: pull it through. UM, I would expect. And so that 330 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: makes things a little complicated. But money makers are really 331 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: Facebook and Instagram. Sara, are you sitting down with Mark 332 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg right now, You've got about forty seconds left here? 333 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: What do you ask him? I just want to know 334 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: if if he really thinks that that they that they 335 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: can afford to put products like Facebook and Instagram into 336 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: a sort of maintenance mode, like sort of change the 337 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: focus of the metaverse. It seems like there's still so 338 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: much to fix on those products. UM. And I just 339 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: wonder if if that's going to hurt them long term, 340 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: that they're not um focused on solving the problems with 341 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: their existing networks instead focus on the future future effort. Alright, 342 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: gonna run. Sarah, Thank you, Thank you, Sarah Fire, Big 343 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: Tech team leader, Bloomberg News. Check out her book if 344 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: you haven't read it already, No Filter, The Inside Story 345 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: of Instagram, Facebook Shares right now, Tim down worst day 346 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: in the company's history by far, and talk about a 347 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: haircut on that market cap. You're listening to Bloomberg Business 348 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic 349 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. Alright, just one week from now, Tim 350 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: and I are going to be out in Sunny l A, 351 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: just ahead of the Super Bowl and at the Bloomberg 352 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: Power Players Smit, the gathering of who's who in sports, 353 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: including NFL team owners, players of all sports, agents, broadcasters 354 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: and so much more. No doubt we will be talking 355 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: about the explosive lawsuit filed by former Miami Dolphins head 356 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: coach Brian Flora. So let's get some reporting on this 357 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: and what the owner of the Dolphins is now saying 358 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: with us right now is Bloomberg News legal reporter Christal Match. 359 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: She's on the phone from Manhattan, the Manhattan Federal Courthouse. 360 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: Hey Chris, nice to have you here with Tim and myself. 361 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: So what is the owner talking about? We're talking about 362 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: Stephen Ross. Yeah, So Mr Ross is um you know, 363 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: the humerently denying the allegations in the lawsuit and most 364 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: substantially the allegation that he offered Brian Flora's a hundred 365 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: thousand dollars per game to lose, basically the tank so 366 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: that the team would have a worse record and have 367 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: a better shot at one of the top draft picks. UM. 368 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: He's saying, you know, he never made these Uh. He's 369 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: welcomed the NFL's investigation. UM, and he's promising to fight 370 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: these allegations. In the lawsuit, Florist does allege that his 371 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: refusal to tank games led to a clash with Stephen Ross, 372 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: who was mad that the team won five games that season, 373 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: costing them a chance of the top overall draft pick. 374 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: I mean, Chris, first of all, these are big allegations. 375 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I've seen an interview with Brian Flores on CBS. 376 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: I mean to come out, you know, when he was 377 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: potentially up for maybe other jobs at other teams. I mean, 378 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: these are big allegations to make. They're huge, and I mean, 379 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: you know, as he said himself, he's you know, this 380 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 1: is a huge professional risk. He doesn't really expect to 381 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: work in the NFL any more after this. UM. So 382 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: you know, for whether or not the lawsuit goes anywhere, 383 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of variables at the class action suit, 384 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: he has to certify a class in order to perceive 385 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: that way, they'll be you know, years of arguments, at 386 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 1: least months of arguments, dismissal motions, things like that. But 387 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: whether or not this goes anywhere, this lawsuit did a 388 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: huge shot across the ball in the NFL, whether its 389 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: steeds or not. Um, it's a this is an issue 390 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: that has been plague in the league for for decades um. 391 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: And they've been accused of not hiring black coaches. That's 392 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: the whole reason the Rooney rulers. And that's a big 393 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: part of his lawsuit, right, correct that that the Rooney 394 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: rule is the sham that it's really not. It doesn't 395 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: do anything because they don't actually hire black coaches. They 396 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: just interviewed them, he says, he you know, got a 397 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: sham interview with the Denver Broncos two years ago. Yeah, 398 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: and Chris as you note that Giants, Dolphins, and Denver 399 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: Broncos are all co defendants in the lawsuits. So you mentioned, Chris, 400 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: that's it doesn't matter whether this lawsuit goes anywhere, and 401 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: it could drag on for years. What could the implications 402 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 1: be for the NFL? Well, certainly, you know, there could 403 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: be some sort of settlement, you know, where the NFL 404 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: kind of agrees to make some sort of changes in 405 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: it's you know, in its functions and the way as 406 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: the ruling rule or it forces it, you know, try 407 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: to make some improvements. Um. But that's just assuming there's 408 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: a settlement and doesn't go to court. I mean, that 409 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: could take a long time. We'll see what happens. But 410 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: the implications for the NFL legally are a lot less 411 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: probably important than really just you know, in terms of 412 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: its fan base, its perceptions, um, it's image and two weeks, 413 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: like you guys said, the Super Bowls coming up. You 414 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: guys will both be there. It's gonna be a huge 415 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: topic of conversation. The NFL would prefer that this thick 416 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: about the Rams, you know, and the I've forgotten the 417 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: other team, but the Bengals, don't forget. My wife is 418 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: going to be very very angry, Chris Will. She should 419 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: be mad at me. All Cincinnati people should be there. 420 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: I gotta say. All the playoff games, it's easy to 421 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: be like, wait, wait, who finally wanted because it was 422 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: such a toss up in those playoffs. Hey listen, Chris, Chris, 423 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: just twenty seconds left here. Does he have to get 424 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: those other members for this to ultimately become that class 425 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: action and have some some bite real quickly. He does, 426 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: but he, you know, his lawyer, Doug wig Door said 427 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: that he has other people ready to sign or on 428 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: others who said they have coaches that can kind of similarly, um, 429 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, prove the same allegations. So there's a good 430 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: chance he could get of people in here. Whether gonna clap, Yeah, 431 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: it's gonna be fascinating to watch crystal match. Legal reporter 432 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg News on the phone from the Manhattan Federal 433 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: Courthouse road. Yeah, but you let me drive? Oh no, 434 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: no, no no, I want to drive. It's a good question. 435 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: Good drive. This is the Drive to the Clothes on 436 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 1: Bluebird Radio. All Right, we've got just about ten minutes 437 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 1: left in today's trading session. It's been another wild week. 438 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: We are at Loews of this session. You just heard 439 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: that from Charlie Pellett, and of course we've been talking 440 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: about the tech sell off, largely those disappointing results from 441 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: Facebook owner Meta platforms. Also some concerns about persistently high 442 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 1: inflation from the ECB that continues to weigh on the market. 443 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: Let's get some thoughts from Tom Plump, President and chief 444 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: investment officer at Plump Funds. Tom joins us once again 445 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: on the phon from Madison, Wisconsin. Tom, we are really 446 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: pleased to have you on a day like today when 447 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: you take a look at the way that meta platforms 448 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: is just reverberating throughout the market, especially the NAZAC one 449 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: hundred other social media companies like Snap, Pinterest, Twitter, and more. Um, 450 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: how do you try to understand what the role of 451 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: one company can be on all these other companies. Result, 452 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 1: it's great to be here even on a day like this, 453 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: but you know what the market UM, well, we always 454 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: used to talk about is the second derivative the rate 455 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: of growth of the rate of growth. And when you 456 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: see companies, even great companies like Facebook and PayPal and 457 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: those companies show a moderation in their growth rate or decline, 458 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: that's when the stock market starts punish them. And we've 459 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: seen that on some of the companies, but of course 460 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: other ones like UM, Microsofttion show the opposite. So UM, 461 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: I think right now it's really key to be focusing 462 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: on those companies that continued to sell acceleration in this 463 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: market environment and some of them will see you tonight 464 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: if Amazon, for example, reports UH that the cloud a 465 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: WS is growing strong enough to continue to show in acceleration, 466 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: or or if we're going to see some moderation because 467 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: of the retail issues that we saw in some of 468 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 1: these other companies. Hey Tom, we love talking with you. 469 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,680 Speaker 1: Your plumb balanced fund in the ninetcent for the past 470 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: five years based on our data, meaning you be just 471 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: about all of the other funds in the category, returning 472 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: on average annually nearly twelve percent. You don't on Facebook, 473 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: I think I I looked through the holdings and I 474 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: did not see it. Why Well, we didn't own Facebook 475 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: because we were thinking that there'd be a significant competition 476 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: at some point, and and for much of this run, 477 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 1: of course, we missed it. UH. So I can't make 478 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: a lot of credit for the fact that we missed 479 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: today because you missed the run up of the previous years. 480 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: But we have been concerned about the sustainability, the fact 481 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: that they are in the political uh target of governments, UH, 482 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: and that there was gonna be a lot of uncertainty 483 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: about what their next thing would be. Hey Tom, I 484 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: want to go to Amazon because they're reporting after the 485 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: bell today and you did mention them, but they are 486 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: among the bigger holdings, uh, that you have in plumb Funds, 487 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: accounting for more than two point seven percent of the holdings, 488 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: about three point five million dollars worth of shares um. 489 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: Amazon shares down about a quarter since July eight. What 490 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: do we need to see from Amazon to to get 491 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: back to where it was? Well, Uh, Amazon is you 492 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: know obviously, when you've been as successful as they have, 493 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: they have to continually come up with something new. And 494 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the cloud aws. If if they match 495 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: Microsoft's numbers they're showing you know, thirty five plus growth 496 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: in that area, that would be something that would be 497 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: very um, you know, I think very big good news 498 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: and continue to say that they're finding the next big thing. Um, 499 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: it's really a question of how much is going to 500 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: be on online sales versus you know, the what PayPal 501 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: and those were saying is that there's a lot more 502 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,239 Speaker 1: people going into the stores. But I can tell you 503 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: I think the Amazon is ingrained. It will continue to grow. 504 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: It's just the question of the growth rate. Where would 505 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: you be allocating new money because we have seen when 506 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: the equity market sells off, Tom we have seen dip 507 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: buyers and maybe took a while, but they did come back, 508 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: and we've seen some rallies off of those losses. What 509 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: would you where would you be buying? Where would you 510 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: be putting new money to work? Carol? Is a great 511 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: question because you know opportunities. Don't hume because the market 512 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 1: is hitting new Hyes, they come on. You know the 513 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: old cliche when they throw the baby out with the 514 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: bath water. And there's some very good companies that are 515 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: continued to show some acceleration that we think are good 516 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: places to invest when this market gives you this opportunity. 517 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: One of them, of course, is a master Card, which 518 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: is our largest holding in the plum plants, where we 519 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: look at a company that has a forty percent net 520 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: profit margin, they've got crypto patents, they are recovering business 521 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: in both business travel and expense, consumer travel, cross border transactions, 522 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: and addressing the huge business to business market which is 523 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: maybe five times as large as the consumer to business market. 524 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: Right and who recently reported earnings along with Visa, and 525 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: both of them really some eye popping numbers when it 526 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: comes to spending on their platforms. Hey, Tom, where else 527 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: are you guys playing? Cash right now. Well, um, there's 528 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: a couple of smaller you know, one of the things 529 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: that happened since the summer is a lot of the 530 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: small emerging technology companies, especially in that software area, had 531 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: been uh, really punished. And one of them is a 532 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: little company called Latch, which is what we call the 533 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: type of company that has hardware enabled software. And here 534 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: we think that they are. They're basically the company that 535 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: allows access and control over entry into apartment buildings. Uh, 536 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: they're probably about thirty of the new apartment buildings. Small 537 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: emerging company, but it's got probably a backlog that's almost 538 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: eight times larger than their current sales. And so we're 539 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: looking for a company again that's accelerating, maybe more than 540 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: tripling their sales next year and even doubling it the 541 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: following year. All right, And one other name, we have 542 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: just about thirty forty seconds left. Oh, we like this 543 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: company called Olo. And every one of us has been 544 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: in that fast foodline. We've talked about this one that 545 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: you can order ahead and uh, this is a company 546 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: that's providing the software for a lot of the medium 547 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: size chains like Denny's and Portillo said and shake check, 548 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: um making it work so that the labor can be 549 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: used so much more effectively. Bit beating up. It's down 550 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: about this year, as we've seen a lot of these 551 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: names under pressure. Tom Plumb be well. Good to check 552 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: in with you, Tom Plum, He's president, chief investment officer 553 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: over at Plump Funds on the phone from Madison, Wisconsin. 554 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast 555 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com, and you can 556 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 557 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg 558 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: Global News