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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

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Speaker 1: the White Tail Woods, presented by first Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First

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Speaker 1: Light Go Farther, stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on

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Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Ethan Tapper, a Vermont based

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Speaker 2: forrester and the author of the book How to Love

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Speaker 2: a Forest to discuss the importance of adopting a land

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Speaker 2: steward mindset and so much more. All right, folks, welcome

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Speaker 2: back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to you

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Speaker 2: by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative. And

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Speaker 2: today we are continuing our Habitat series and we've got

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Speaker 2: a great one today about the philosophies and mindsets and

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Speaker 2: maybe attitudes that we might be able to adopt as

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Speaker 2: we grow as land stewards and habitat managers and wildlife managers.

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Speaker 2: I think there's there's lots and lots of podcasts out

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Speaker 2: there these days about tactics, what to do to plant

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Speaker 2: a better food plot, or how to do an effective hingecut,

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Speaker 2: or what the best approach to you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: specific timber stand improvement practices, or planting a better pollinator strip,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be. And those things are good and valuable,

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Speaker 2: and I'm glad we've got them, and we do plenty

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Speaker 2: of those kinds of episodes here on Wired Hunt as well.

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Speaker 2: But sometimes I do think it's useful to zoom out

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Speaker 2: a little bit and talk about though, why and the

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Speaker 2: slightly broader how, maybe not on the ground, but how

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Speaker 2: we go about making decisions about what matters and where

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Speaker 2: to focus our efforts. And that's that's I think what

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Speaker 2: a lot of our conversation today is about. Because I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking to a guy by the name of Ethan Tapper.

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Speaker 2: He is a forester out of Vermont, and he's also

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Speaker 2: the author of a relatively recent book called How to

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Speaker 2: Love a Forest, The Bittersweet Work of Tending a Changing World.

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Speaker 2: And this was I thought, a really interesting book that

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Speaker 2: explores so many things that I think we as hunters

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Speaker 2: and land managers can relate to when it comes to,

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Speaker 2: you know, trying to do right by the land and

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Speaker 2: by the critters, and trying to decide how to make

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Speaker 2: things better, what that looks like, what that means, the

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Speaker 2: sacrifices you need to make the choices you need to

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Speaker 2: make along the way. How we can both you know,

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Speaker 2: love and kill deer, How we can both appreciate and

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Speaker 2: cut down trees, How we can try to steward a

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Speaker 2: landscape while also recognizing that we are putting an impact

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Speaker 2: on it too. All of those kinds of things are

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Speaker 2: inherent in being a hunter and a manager of a landscape,

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Speaker 2: and I guess even more generally just just being a

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Speaker 2: human being on this planet. And we talk about all

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Speaker 2: that today with Ethan. I think you're gonna enjoy this chat.

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Speaker 2: I really did. I think Ethan's got a lot to

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Speaker 2: share a terrific perspective. So if you own land, or

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Speaker 2: if you manage land or lease land, or hunt on

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Speaker 2: a piece that other people are managing, and you're wondering

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Speaker 2: more about, you know, kind of some of these bigger

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Speaker 2: questions around how to do this kind of stuff in

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Speaker 2: a way that helps your hunting, It helps your deer,

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Speaker 2: but it's also helping everything else, which I think has

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Speaker 2: been a general theme that we've been exploring more and

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Speaker 2: more over the years. Then this is a great book

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Speaker 2: to take a look at, and this is a great

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Speaker 2: conversation to start with. I think I might leave it

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Speaker 2: at that. Ethan and I cover a lot of different ground,

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Speaker 2: everything from you know, managing your forests, to what healthy

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Speaker 2: habitats and what a healthy forest looks like, to how

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Speaker 2: we can bail you know, making management improvements versus leaving

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Speaker 2: some things untouched. We talk about the impacts of hunting

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Speaker 2: and the impacts of deer and so much more. So

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Speaker 2: check it out. I hope you enjoy this episode. Ethan's

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Speaker 2: got a lot of great content to share in his

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Speaker 2: social media platforms as well. He shares a lot of

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Speaker 2: short videos with information about management practices and ideas for

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Speaker 2: better understanding your forest and improving it and managing it.

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Speaker 2: So check out his Instagram or TikTok whatever your thing

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Speaker 2: is if you want more of this kind of stuff too. So,

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Speaker 2: without further ado, let's get to my chat with mister

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Speaker 2: Ethan Tapper. All right, joining me now is Ethan Tapper.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Ethan, thanks you having me Mark,

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Speaker 2: You're very welcome, glad that we're getting to do this.

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Speaker 2: It's been I don't know, might be a year now,

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Speaker 2: maybe more, since I've been kind of following you from Afar.

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Speaker 2: I think it was a friend of mine who is

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Speaker 2: also a forester, who first turned me on to your work.

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Speaker 2: He said, hey, you should be following this guy, keep

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Speaker 2: tabs on him, and so I have been. And as

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Speaker 2: soon as I was aware that you had this book,

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Speaker 2: How to Love a Forest, as soon as that came out,

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Speaker 2: I picked up a copy, and so I have been

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Speaker 2: quietly behind the scenes watching what you've been sharing with

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Speaker 2: the world and appreciating it. From afar, So I want

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Speaker 2: to kick things off at first saying, great job with

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Speaker 2: the book, great job with your message and everything you're

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Speaker 2: putting out there. Thanks for doing this kind of work.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 2: I have been enjoying it. It's a perfect fit for

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Speaker 2: this month of podcast episodes that we're doing, Ethan, because

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Speaker 2: we did a month of March that was focusing on

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Speaker 2: conservation more broadly, and then this month of April we've

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Speaker 2: been kind of dialing it in a little bit more

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Speaker 2: to speak, a little bit more about on the ground,

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Speaker 2: habitat work, stewardship, and a lot of this is coming

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Speaker 2: from the perspective of, you know, what most of our

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Speaker 2: listeners are doing on a day to day basis, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, hunting deer, managing deer, maybe managing a farm

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Speaker 2: that they lease or own for wildlife and recreation. But

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Speaker 2: you bring this unique perspective in that you are a hunter,

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Speaker 2: but you are also a forester and someone who's who's

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Speaker 2: really looking at things from a very high level perspective.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's kind of where I want to start

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Speaker 2: with this, Ethan, How do you define being a good steward?

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Speaker 2: I hear you talk about stewardship a lot, or at

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Speaker 2: least you're you're kind of referring to that in a

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Speaker 2: lot of your work. What does that mean?

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Speaker 4: I think that I started using that word steward for

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Speaker 4: a few different reasons. I think one thing that's neat

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Speaker 4: about it is that it sort of contains this idea

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Speaker 4: of a temporary nature, that our time on this land

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Speaker 4: is temporary, right, that we're all passing this land on

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Speaker 4: to someone in the future, future generations. But also this

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Speaker 4: idea that I think if you were to read the

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Speaker 4: book or listen to check out some of my content,

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Speaker 4: you would be like, oh, this guy is a proponent

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Speaker 4: of forest management, and that's really not what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 4: What I'm talking about is something that is like much

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Speaker 4: broader and more holistic, which is this concept that I

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Speaker 4: call stewardship, which encompasses when we're going into these forests

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Speaker 4: and we're doing things like controlling non native invasive plants

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Speaker 4: and cutting trees, doing what we call logging, right, and.

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Speaker 3: Also so much more.

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Speaker 4: If you all are, you know, out there, if you

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Speaker 4: want a piece of land, you know that taking care

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Speaker 4: of that piece of land and tails trail management, boundary

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Speaker 4: line maintenance, habitat management, a lot of time where you're

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Speaker 4: just sort of like walking around, checking stuff out, seeing

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Speaker 4: what's going on. Like that's all part of stewardship. That's

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Speaker 4: all part of how we take care of this land.

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Speaker 4: And I think that the way that I think about

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Speaker 4: the role of active management, like when we're actually in

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Speaker 4: there creating habitat, cutting trees, that's just one component of

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Speaker 4: this of this bigger thing that's really what we want

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how did that? How did you grow into a

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Speaker 2: realization that that's important? Did you know, like from an

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Speaker 2: early age that you know this was an important way

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Speaker 2: to live with the land and to participate it with

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Speaker 2: it in an active way, or do you have a

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Speaker 2: moment at some point in your history where all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden you realized, oh, Wow, there's a different way

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Speaker 2: to do this. What did that look like for you personally?

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Speaker 3: I really got into it, you know.

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Speaker 4: Well, so part of my story is that I have

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Speaker 4: a different experience than I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 4: who are in this line of work, which is that,

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Speaker 4: you know, you always hear these stories about folks who

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Speaker 4: are biologists and ecologists, hunters, land stewards and different shapes,

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Speaker 4: you know, and kinds, and I feel like always they're

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Speaker 4: like I was always the nature kid, you know, like

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Speaker 4: I was always into this stuff. I always knew that

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Speaker 4: I wanted to be spending all my time out in

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Speaker 4: the woods. That wasn't my experience at all, And actually

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Speaker 4: I had like no idea that that's what I wanted

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Speaker 4: to do. And what ended up happening is that I

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Speaker 4: got a scholarship to go to the University of Vermont,

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Speaker 4: and I didn't know what I wanted to study. And

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Speaker 4: my first serious girlfriend, my high school girlfriend, ended up

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Speaker 4: going on this wilderness expedition that was like five months

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Speaker 4: long with this program, and she came back and she

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Speaker 4: had had this like huge life changing experience and I

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Speaker 4: had not. I'd just been like, you know, hanging out

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Speaker 4: in my dorm room doing what nineteen year olds do,

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Speaker 4: and then it was we weren't connecting, and I thought

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Speaker 4: we're going to break up. It was freaking me out,

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Speaker 4: and so I was like, well, you know what I'm

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Speaker 4: going to do is I'm going on a wilderness expedition.

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Speaker 4: And that same program was offering one one that left

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Speaker 4: in two weeks and it was six months long and

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Speaker 4: we were going to ski north for three months, build

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Speaker 4: a canoe, and canoe back down. And you know, I'd

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Speaker 4: never camped outside in the wintertime before, didn't know how

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Speaker 4: to ski, never really canoed before, and I just ended

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Speaker 4: up doing it and it ended up being this like

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Speaker 4: life changing experience, I should say, you know, in retrospect,

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Speaker 4: I did it ostensibly, like for no reason.

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Speaker 3: The relationship didn't work out.

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Speaker 4: But after that all I wanted to do was just

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Speaker 4: be in the woods and I ended up working as

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Speaker 4: a wilderness guide. I lived in this like uninsulated year

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Speaker 4: in the woods of main with a ferbough floor for

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Speaker 4: a year. I ended up working with draft animals draft horses,

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Speaker 4: did a little bit of horse logging.

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Speaker 1: And.

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Speaker 4: Then after that I had to go back to school

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Speaker 4: that I was going to lose my scholarship, and then

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Speaker 4: I just kind of picked forestry because I had the

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Speaker 4: word forest in it, and it seemed like, you know

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Speaker 4: what little I knew about it, that it was a

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Speaker 4: pretty cool thing. So what happened to me was that

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Speaker 4: when I was coming from this this world of like

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Speaker 4: the kind of like the primitive skills guiding world, I

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Speaker 4: really had this kind of leave no trace attitude where

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Speaker 4: I was like, all we gotta do is just like

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Speaker 4: keep our hands off this thing that we call nature

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Speaker 4: and leave it alone, and everything's going to be fine.

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Speaker 4: And then once I went to forestry school, I started

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Speaker 4: to realize that actually, like a lot of these forests

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Speaker 4: that I thought of as just like perfect and pristine,

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Speaker 4: utopian places were actually dealing with this incredible amount of

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Speaker 4: threats and stressors, like they were not okay at all,

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Speaker 4: and that there were all these these actions that we

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Speaker 4: could take, this stuff that we could do to help

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Speaker 4: them out, you know, to help out forest, to help

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Speaker 4: out wildlife.

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Speaker 3: And so that's sort of how I got into forestry

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Speaker 3: in the first place.

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Speaker 4: And I can talk about, you know, I had some

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Speaker 4: more experiences in like different parts of forestry, but the

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Speaker 4: thing that really drove home this like stewardship idea for

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Speaker 4: me was when I became the owner of my own land,

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Speaker 4: which is this one hundred and seventy five acre piece

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Speaker 4: of land here in Vermont that I call Bear Island.

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Speaker 4: And that was when I was like started to realize

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Speaker 4: the power that like an individual person can have on

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Speaker 4: a piece of land to really you know, take this

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Speaker 4: forest out of my case, was super degraded and we

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Speaker 4: needed a lot of help and really like steer it

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Speaker 4: into a better future.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, it's funny what you described there. I

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Speaker 2: think is probably common for a lot of us in

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Speaker 2: that we until we know otherwise, when we head out

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Speaker 2: and we walked through the woods or we drive through

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Speaker 2: the country, we don't realize. We might think it's pristine

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Speaker 2: and healthy and great, until all of a sudden you

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Speaker 2: start learning a little bit more. There's there's a certain

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Speaker 2: blissful ignorance that comes along with not really understanding what's

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Speaker 2: going on. Yeah. I always quote, you know, Leopold when

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Speaker 2: he talks about the curse of an ecological education being

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Speaker 2: you know, realizing that you live in a world of wounds,

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Speaker 2: and it's so true. But there's this a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a shifting baseline thing going on too, in which

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Speaker 2: you know what you and I were raised under when

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Speaker 2: we looked at what the forest landscape looked like around

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Speaker 2: us and you know, the Northeastern and the Midwest. You know,

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Speaker 2: this is all I've ever known, and I've always thought like,

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Speaker 2: oh gosh, this is pretty good. And then you start

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Speaker 2: to realize, oh, what I think is healthy and prisione

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Speaker 2: maybe isn't. So I think this is a challenge for

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Speaker 2: a lot of folks. Your average American or outdoorsman or

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Speaker 2: landowner doesn't even know what healthy actually looks like. What

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Speaker 2: does a healthy forest or healthy landscape look like?

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Speaker 4: Ethan, boy, It's a tough question, right because it's it's

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Speaker 4: a different answer no matter where we are, right where

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Speaker 4: we have. You know, I do a lot of I

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Speaker 4: create social media content that people like all over this continent,

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Speaker 4: maybe all over the world see, and you know, I'll

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Speaker 4: do stuff like talk about the beauty of having lots

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Speaker 4: of dead wood on the ground, you know, which is here.

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Speaker 4: It's just like such an it's a foundational habitat structure.

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Speaker 4: It's important to regulating forest hydrology, it's important to building soils.

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Speaker 4: And then you know, you get a forester from California,

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Speaker 4: who's like, you should be thrown in jail putting that

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Speaker 4: dead wood on the ground like that. So it's different.

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Speaker 4: You know, in there are areas like I know that

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Speaker 4: a lot of a big struggle that a lot of

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Speaker 4: folks in these in these traditional grassland ecosystems and savannah

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Speaker 4: ecosystems deal with is you know, with the loss of

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Speaker 4: fire the messification of their forests, which is just these

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Speaker 4: historic grasslands being not burned, and so they get taken

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Speaker 4: over and what was sort of this open grassland ecosystem

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Speaker 4: becomes a forest, right, which is really not what we

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Speaker 4: want in that system. So it's so one thing I

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Speaker 4: would sort of hedge it by saying that it depends

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Speaker 4: and on the quality that I that I think about

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Speaker 4: more and more to judge the health of our forest though,

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Speaker 4: is resilience. So resilience is is a really cool word.

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Speaker 4: Basically in its most basic sense, it means the ability

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Speaker 4: of something, an ecosystem, a person to experience adversity and

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Speaker 4: then to bounce back from it, to respond to it.

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Speaker 4: And that's you know, in the medical community, increasingly people

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Speaker 4: use that as a definition of health. It's not about

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Speaker 4: like how many you know how fast your heart beats,

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Speaker 4: or like what your body fat percentage is as much

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Speaker 4: as it's about the ability of your entire body when

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Speaker 4: it experience experiences some kind of adversity, some health adversity,

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Speaker 4: to like respond and to be okay in a holistic way.

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Speaker 4: And so that's what I think about with our forests now,

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Speaker 4: in the forest here in the Northeast, what we look

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Speaker 4: at as a sort of indicator of what a you know,

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Speaker 4: quote unquote healthy forest might look like is to look

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Speaker 4: at our remnant old growth forests, which we have somewhere

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Speaker 4: between one tenth of one percent and one half of

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Speaker 4: one percent remaining, which is yeah, and it's a symptom

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Speaker 4: really of the pretty widespread I think this is common

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Speaker 4: across a lot of the Eastern US, widespread land clearing

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Speaker 4: that took place here, especially in the eighteen hundreds where

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Speaker 4: you are, that those days might be a little different,

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Speaker 4: but you know, we just have this, these very few

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Speaker 4: examples of what a forest would have looked like even

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Speaker 4: just three hundred years ago. But the interesting thing about

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Speaker 4: that is if we're defining for holistically as more than

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Speaker 4: just trees, but as actually like trees, wildlife, even natural processes,

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Speaker 4: all of these different pieces and parts. Then what it

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Speaker 4: means for that entire system to be healthy, you know,

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Speaker 4: it requires a lot of different things. When we look

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Speaker 4: at these old growth forests, what we're seeing is the

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Speaker 4: conditions that all of the native species that live in

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Speaker 4: that system have adapted to for thousands of years. You know,

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Speaker 4: all the trees, all the plants, all the animals lived

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Speaker 4: in what we would now call old growth forests or

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Speaker 4: whatever the version of that would be in the part

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Speaker 4: of the world where you are for thousands of years.

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Speaker 4: And so when we don't have the conditions that we

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Speaker 4: find in those old growth forests in our modern forests,

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Speaker 4: which we uniformly here in the Northeast do not, we're

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Speaker 4: missing habitats, and we're missing important natural processes, like things

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Speaker 4: that are important to things like soil formation, right, which

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Speaker 4: is how we grow future generations the trees. So like

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Speaker 4: here in the Northeast, when we look at our old

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Speaker 4: growth force or's, what we see is that they have,

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Speaker 4: as you can imagine, some big old trees, often not

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Speaker 4: a lot like ten to twelve big trees per acre.

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Speaker 4: They're equally defined by this quality that in the ecological

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Speaker 4: parlance we call structural diversity or structural complexity. I call

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Speaker 4: more often than not multi generationality. Many different sizes and

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Speaker 4: ages of trees. They're equally defined by the presence of

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Speaker 4: deadwood on the ground. So all of those qualities are

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Speaker 4: underrepresented today as a result of that land use history

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Speaker 4: which has given us these forests that are relatively young,

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Speaker 4: often dominated by a single age of trees, missing deadwood

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Speaker 4: on the ground, missing that multigenerationality, missing those big old trees.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so with my definition, I'm sort of like

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Speaker 4: thinking about that whole system and looking at those old

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Speaker 4: growth for us and saying, Okay, so this is a

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Speaker 4: system that is diverse, and that diversity gives it a

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Speaker 4: lot of resilience, meaning that no matter what happens to it,

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Speaker 4: there's kind of different pathways that it can follow in

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Speaker 4: different ways that it can respond. And and then also

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Speaker 4: that it's providing habitat for all of these native species

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Speaker 4: which are also part of the forest.

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Speaker 2: So if I'm listening to this and I'm hearing you

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Speaker 2: say all this, and I'm thinking to myself, Okay, I

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Speaker 2: come to this conversation first and foremost as an outdoorsman

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Speaker 2: or a woman who you know has gotten into the

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Speaker 2: outdoors and caring about these things because of hunting. Let's say,

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Speaker 2: whether it's deer or turkeys or upland birds or whatever

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Speaker 2: it might be. Let's let's just say that's what brought

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Speaker 2: me to the table here, and maybe I have looked

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Speaker 2: at my management of my land again hypothetically from the

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Speaker 2: perspective of how do I make my hunting better or

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Speaker 2: how do I get more of X animal? To that person,

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Speaker 2: how would you pitch them on kind of zooming out

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Speaker 2: a little bit more and looking at things from the

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Speaker 2: perspective that you just described, looking at this from a

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Speaker 2: from a forest health or ecosystem health health perspective, how

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Speaker 2: might that make sense for this person?

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Speaker 4: I think, you know a lot of times I'll say

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Speaker 4: something right like everything's connected, which sounds like this like

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Speaker 4: woo wooee.

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Speaker 3: Thing, and that's sort of how I used to think

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 4: But then I'm like, you're learn about these ecosystems and

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Speaker 4: it's actually true, right, So you know, there's some of

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Speaker 4: these interesting kind of like paradoxes that you deal with

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Speaker 4: one of them. So an example of this is like

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Speaker 4: the case of oak. So oak is a species that's

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Speaker 4: foundational to providing food for lots of different wildlife species,

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Speaker 4: deer in Turkey among them. But in places where we

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Speaker 4: have too many deer, the deer eat all the little

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Speaker 4: oaks and you never get the big oaks that become

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Speaker 4: the trees that provide the acorns for future generations a deer.

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Speaker 4: Oaks are also, you know, a species that is really

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Speaker 4: important to providing habitat for songbirds. They host these very

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Speaker 4: dense and diverse populations of invertebrates songbirds or species that

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Speaker 4: are important to regulating populations of forest pests. So because

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Speaker 4: they eat so many insects, one of the things that

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Speaker 4: they do is lower the populations of these insects that

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Speaker 4: are low level defoliators of trees. And what we've seen

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Speaker 4: is that when birds and bats are actually removed from forests,

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Speaker 4: some of these insects that are super benign have low

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Speaker 4: populations in the forest. They do to foliate trees a little bit,

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Speaker 4: but it's not a big deal. Suddenly their populations increase exponentially,

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Speaker 4: right and suddenly they become like a legit forest pest that,

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Speaker 4: especially when combined with other stressors like drought and stuff

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Speaker 4: like that, can legitimately stress out our trees. So you know,

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Speaker 4: you start to like enumerate all these connections between different

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Speaker 4: trees and you start to see that actually, in order

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Speaker 4: to have anything we want, we sort of need to

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Speaker 4: be thinking about forests in terms of, you know, as

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Speaker 4: being these complete ecosystems that if we want deer, in

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Speaker 4: a weird way, we also want birds. Right, if we

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Speaker 4: want deer, we also want areas that you know, deer

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Speaker 4: aren't going to be able to eat every single one

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Speaker 4: of those little oaks. Or maybe we want a population

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Speaker 4: of deer that's small enough that it can grow deer

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Speaker 4: that are big and healthy, but that also will allow

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Speaker 4: this forest to produce food for future generations of deer.

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Speaker 4: And so yeah, so I think it's if we look

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Speaker 4: at it in a really simplistic way, some of the stuff.

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Speaker 3: That we might do to care for the species.

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Speaker 4: That we also want to hunt and eat and you know,

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Speaker 4: cultivate like deer that you know, lowering that population might

400
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Speaker 4: seem like something that's really counterintuitive. But then when you

401
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Speaker 4: sort of look at what we're trying to do, which

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Speaker 4: is not just to every year, you know, harvest the

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Speaker 4: biggest deer of our lives, but to really do that

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Speaker 4: in a way that we can do it, our children

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Speaker 4: can do it, our grandchildren can do it, and that

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Speaker 4: we can also be growing at the same time, growing

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Speaker 4: turkey and growing other stuff that we like to hunt

408
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Speaker 4: and grow, and other stuff that we like to see,

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Speaker 4: like these other songbirds and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: It becomes a little bit more complex when we look

411
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Speaker 3: at it a little bit more closely.

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Speaker 4: You start to see how you kind of have to

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Speaker 4: make these compromises to do all the stuff we want

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Speaker 4: to do at once.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you write a lot and you talked about this

416
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Speaker 2: idea of complexity too, both kind of in the case

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Speaker 2: of you know, this whole concept a conceptual framework, but

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Speaker 2: then also as actual on the ground habitat, Like complex

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Speaker 2: habitat is typically better for wildlife, right, you alluded to

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Speaker 2: it to a little bit. Could you expand a little

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Speaker 2: bit more on just you know, what a complex force

422
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Speaker 2: looks like compared to a simple one, because again, I

423
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Speaker 2: think there's gonna be a lot of people listening who

424
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Speaker 2: are thinking, Okay, what does my forty acres look like? Okay,

425
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Speaker 2: is there deadwood on the ground? He mentioned that, is

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Speaker 2: there multi is there multiple generations? But again, people trying

427
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Speaker 2: to diagnose the health of their back forty or whatever.

428
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Speaker 2: I think a little bit more criteria there might be

429
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Speaker 2: helpful for people as they start thinking, you know, am

430
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Speaker 2: I doing right by the land? What does this look like?

431
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Speaker 4: So complexity, and you can think about it as many

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Speaker 4: different layers of diversity, like layered atop each other. So

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Speaker 4: what we really want to see is just like a

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Speaker 4: lot of different things in the same place at once.

435
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 4: We want to see a lot of different conditions in

436
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 4: the forest. We could think about that in terms of

437
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 4: lots of different species of trees, lots of different sizes

438
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 4: and ages of trees, lots of different structural conditions of trees.

439
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: So we might have.

440
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 4: Areas of young trees, areas of older trees, areas of

441
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 4: all those different sizes and ages of trees mixed together.

442
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 4: We might have areas that have a lot of dead

443
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 4: wood on the ground in a certain way, and areas

444
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 4: that have a little bit of dead wood on the

445
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 4: ground area. You know, there's you could enumerate all these

446
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 4: different things again and again and again. I think that

447
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 4: one thing when we're talking about creating complex habitats, what

448
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 4: that does is basically allow us to provide the most

449
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 4: habitat that we possibly.

450
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 3: Can in a given area. So, like an example that.

451
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 4: I'll give is that if we have for us, like

452
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: we often that are a lot of trees we call

453
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 4: them even aged forests, a lot of trees that are

454
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 4: all like all the same size, all about the same age.

455
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,120
Speaker 4: Oftentimes that the canopies of those trees are growing very

456
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 4: closely together, and so there's not much light reaching the

457
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 4: forest floor, and that combined with maybe a little bit

458
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: of deer overpopulation or something else, is causing there to

459
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 4: be nothing going on in the understory. So in that forest,

460
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 4: we're providing habitat for a few species. The species that

461
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 4: will utilize that kind of close canopy forest, the species

462
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 4: that will utilize the habitats provided by those tall trees.

463
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 4: Of those species, you will not see that any other

464
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 4: species that need other things. Species that might utilize you know,

465
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 4: like for in the case of here, like blackberries that

466
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 4: need to eat raspberries, and blackberries aren't going to be there.

467
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 4: There's no raspberries and blackberries there. They might pass through there,

468
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 4: but it's not going to hold that species right. And

469
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 4: same thing with like you know, a species like some

470
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 4: of our songbirds, species that nest in the understory, forage

471
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 4: in the understory, any species that utilizes a different habitat condition.

472
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 4: So what we see sometimes when we cut trees is

473
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 4: suddenly you take this forest that's providing this one kind

474
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 4: of layer of complexity, this one canopy level, you know,

475
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 4: this one thing, and suddenly we cut some of those trees.

476
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: We let the forest regenerate.

477
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 4: Maybe we do that a few times, and suddenly we

478
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 4: have young trees, middle aged trees, old trees, canopy gaps,

479
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 4: young forest shrubs or baceous plants, all of these things

480
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 4: in the same place. And it feels like even though

481
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: essensibly you like took something away, you know, you cut trees,

482
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 4: you kill trees, what you've actually done is just massively

483
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 4: increase the volume.

484
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 3: Of habitat that's there.

485
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 4: You still have all the habitat associated with, you know,

486
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 4: for all those those species that like that upper closed

487
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 4: canopy forest and those.

488
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: Tall trees, but you also just like have so much more.

489
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 4: One one thing that I often tell people about this

490
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 4: concept of wild life cover that we talk a lot

491
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 4: about is that we run into this situation where, for

492
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 4: whatever reason, intuitively, a lot of people want to see

493
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 4: this very simple forest, simple habitat. They want to see

494
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 4: a forest where like they have these evenly spaced trees

495
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 4: and there's really nothing in the understore.

496
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 3: You can just look right through and you can see

497
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: a long ways.

498
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 4: Well, you have to know that basically any wildlife species

499
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 4: that isn't totally comfortable having you or another predator see

500
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 4: it is just not going to be there. The fact

501
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 4: that you can see through the understory that forest is

502
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 4: the exact reason why you're not going to have many

503
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 4: of our different wildlife species. There's no where for them

504
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 4: to hide. Why would they be there? And so it

505
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: requires us interestingly to kind of like reimagine and reassess

506
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: what we think a good looking forest looks like, because

507
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: in order for us to provide that cover that we need,

508
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 4: we might need to make a forest look less kind

509
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 4: of intuitively good to us.

510
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the stories you tell in your book

511
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: that I think illustrates us really well is of that

512
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: that windstorm that came through when you went and visited

513
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: a landowner's property and you walked her property with her,

514
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: and she seemed so dismayed by how everything looked and

515
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: how destroyed it felt to her. But you were continually

516
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: trying to show her this is going to be amazing. Someday,

517
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 2: this is going to be terrific for wildlife and everything,

518
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: but it's going to take a minute. That's a hard

519
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: thing to get across to people when you know, when

520
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: you do management in the moment, it sometimes does look

521
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: like a bit like a wasteland. Yeah right, right at first?

522
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 2: Yeah it does. Well, sorry, yeah, go ahead.

523
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, yeah, it does.

524
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 4: And that's really I believe, you know, a lot of

525
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: times people they are so scared of that moment and

526
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 4: of that feeling of that freshly managed forest that it

527
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 4: prevents them from actually helping their forest get to a

528
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 4: better place.

529
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 3: As a shade.

530
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: Now here is a dilemma that I have wrestled with

531
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: a lot in thinking through all this coming from the

532
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: world I live in. Active management is a pretty popular

533
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 2: thing within the wildlife management world because a lot of

534
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: folks are recognize exactly what you just described, which is

535
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: that actively managing a landscape where forest leads to more cover,

536
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: leads to more you know, food and everything you need

537
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: at the wildlife level. You know, in the case of deer,

538
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: like having this kind of thing is going to be

539
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: great for them in the moment. But then there's so

540
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: there's there's that side of my world in which I'm

541
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,479
Speaker 2: constantly hearing about the value of active management. But then

542
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: there's this other side of the of the you know,

543
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: of the wildlife caring world, who would talk about, you know,

544
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: the need and the necessity of and the value of

545
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: old growth forest and how important that is for some species,

546
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: and carbon sequestration and wilderness values and all of those

547
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: different things. And I can understand and see many of

548
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: those perspectives too, And so I naturally think to myself, well,

549
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: we need both, we need some of both, and I've

550
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 2: heard you talk about that too. But what I have

551
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: a hard time putting a finger on is how do

552
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: you figure out how much is enough of either one?

553
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: Or where's the right what's the right place for what?

554
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 2: You know? This is like on a macro level, if

555
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: you look at, for example, all the debates around our

556
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: national forest system. I think this is a huge thing. Right.

557
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: There's people saying, well, we got to cut more because

558
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: we need active management, and then you have the other

559
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 2: side of folks saying we've got to protect these places.

560
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: We need to preserve the last little bit of old

561
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: growth we have I'm throwing a lot at chrig right here,

562
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: you think, because I've been I've got a lot of questions. Yeah,

563
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on kind of this old we're

564
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: all issue that I'm laying out.

565
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think so. One of the things that.

566
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 4: It's it's such a so much of this stuff requires

567
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: us to be so nuanced, and which is really hard

568
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 4: because it's so much easier just to.

569
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: You know, accept.

570
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 4: Whatever is the easiest to believe, you know, or the

571
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 4: easiest to understand a little sound bite and then we

572
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 4: like we're like, Okay, we figured it out, we learned this,

573
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 4: we heard this one little sound bite, we get it now,

574
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 4: and then that's it. And one thing that I feel

575
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 4: like a lot of my work is I feel like

576
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 4: I spend more time talking to people who care about

577
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 4: forests and are sort of like seduced by this all

578
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 4: wilderness all the time attitude than I do by people

579
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 4: who like exploit for us, you know, or maybe are

580
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 4: on the other side of the spectrum they're seeing for us,

581
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 4: like as commodities. I think that, you know, wilderness is important,

582
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 4: and it's important for variet of different reasons. It's important,

583
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 4: I believe for cultural reasons, and it's you know.

584
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: It's cool to have these areas. And certainly I would

585
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: say if we.

586
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 4: Have legit old growth for us that's still out there

587
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 4: on the landscape, that should be protected, no questions asked,

588
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: because it's just so rare.

589
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 3: There's just not enough of it left. It's precious. However,

590
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 3: you know a lot of the stuff.

591
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 4: That I hear being called old growth is not old growth, right,

592
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: And it's just you know, for us that for whatever reason,

593
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 4: people are uncomfortable with the idea of it being managed,

594
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: and so we come up with all these instead of

595
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 4: like asking, you know, really interrogating that question and ask

596
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 4: these real questions about like, you know, maybe is the

597
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 4: fact that I'm uncomfortable about forest management maybe not the

598
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: best indicator of whether or not this forest should actually

599
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 4: be managed. Instead of asking those questions, a lot of

600
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: times we tend to do this thing we call confirmation bias, right,

601
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 4: which is we already know what we believe, and then

602
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 4: we try to like backfill that with stuff that supports

603
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: what we already think and.

604
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: So guilty of it.

605
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 4: So my like I get a little almost like triggered

606
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 4: by this idea of wilderness because I so frequently hear

607
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 4: people get excited about that idea, and it's so much

608
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 4: easier to accept that if we care about ecosystems we

609
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: care about for us.

610
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: The way that we care about.

611
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 4: Them is just leave them alone, get people out of them,

612
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 4: and that's all we got to do. And so that's

613
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 4: such an easier idea to accept that people care about forests.

614
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: They're just like, okay, got it, figured it out. That's

615
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 4: what we do, and it's not right. It's something that

616
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 4: we do strategically, and we know that we want on

617
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 4: our landscape to have some forests that are unmanaged, but

618
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 4: we also know that, like number one, we have lots

619
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: of different values that we're trying to manage for and

620
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 4: just to know, you know, this no management situation doesn't

621
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,239
Speaker 4: help us with all of them. Number Two, there are

622
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 4: situations that we're in with our forests right now where

623
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: I would argue that to not manage them because of

624
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 4: the volume of threats and stressors that they face, they're

625
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 4: just not going to get over on their own own

626
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 4: and ever be an old growth forest without a little

627
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: bit of help. I would argue that in that case,

628
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 4: no management is irresponsible.

629
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: You know.

630
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 4: Number three, we have to think about some of these

631
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: these resource issues, like where are we getting stuff from?

632
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 4: I think that a lot of times what can be

633
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: kind of baked into this attitude is a kind of

634
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: not in my backyard thing where people are comfortable consuming

635
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: resources produced at great ecological cost somewhere else in the world,

636
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: but not comfortable you know, dealing with the that maybe

637
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 4: the esthetic and you know, the way it makes them

638
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: feel to see these resources produced at home, which is

639
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 4: just something that we need to get over. Yeah, that's

640
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 4: a doozy so but yeah, as far as like how

641
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 4: much you know, there are a lot of you know,

642
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 4: smarter people than me who are who are answering these questions.

643
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: And then the tricky thing is like here at the

644
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 4: in Vermont Green Mountain National Forest, we've been answering this question.

645
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 3: Right now.

646
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 4: There's a project called the Telephone Got Project in the

647
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 4: Green Mountain National Forest, and what they're doing there is

648
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 4: exactly trying to figure this out, being like, you know,

649
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 4: how to get all of these values, to provide habitat

650
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 4: for all these species of concern, to provide local renewable

651
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 4: resources in our working landscape, to manage for even things

652
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 4: like old growth conditions, helping our younger forest be more

653
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 4: like old growth for US century sooner than they can

654
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 4: develop these qualities natural naturally, and you know, having some

655
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 4: areas set aside to be unmanaged in perpetuity, like they're

656
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: doing all that stuff at the same time, and and

657
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 4: that's like, that's that's it. They're doing it, you know,

658
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 4: that's what were that's what we want to do. Really,

659
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 4: But then the part of that that involves active management

660
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 4: is so confusing and so counterintuitive that then we have

661
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: groups suing the US Forest Service saying that, oh, they

662
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: don't you know, they don't care about any of these values.

663
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 4: They're just you know, they're just clearcutters, right, they all

664
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 4: they're just in it for the money and they're just

665
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 4: in bed with industry, which is just you know, total boloney.

666
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 4: But there are you know, there are smart people who

667
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 4: are like who are trying to figure these things out.

668
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 4: And you know, folks in the conservation community. Everybody that

669
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 4: I know here in Vermont who's in this world, who

670
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 4: works for nonprofits, work from a government agencies.

671
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 3: All they want to do is just answer that question. Yeah,

672
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: but it's complex.

673
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: So for a landowner you described, we kind of talked

674
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 2: about one bucket of landscape, which would be, you know, understanding,

675
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: do I have a simple forest or a complex forest,

676
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: and that being one indicator of what I might need

677
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: to do as someone who's trying to manage this. But

678
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: then you just describe two other options, which is either

679
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: one maybe you have a particular set of circumstances that

680
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: warrant you leaving it alone, or on the flip side,

681
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: you have a set of circumstances that is so unhealthy

682
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 2: that it'd be irresponsible not to do something. Could you

683
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: better define those two things so that if I'm a

684
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: landowner and I'm trying to think about what I have,

685
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: what might those two far sides of the spectrum look like.

686
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I would say that they're like sort of

687
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 4: in relationship with each other in a way, because for

688
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 4: a forest to be appropriate for no management, or the

689
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 4: term of art that we use now we call passive management,

690
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 4: because it is sort of still a management decision, even

691
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 4: if the management decision is like hands off. So in

692
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 4: order for a place to be appropriate for passive management,

693
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 4: it needs to not have any of these sort of

694
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 4: external factors that inhibit its ability to become an old

695
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 4: growth forest, so that means no non native invasive plants,

696
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 4: probably no extreme dear overpopulation either. Those would be I

697
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 4: think the big ones. No other factors that are going

698
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: to prevent it from just being able to develop normally

699
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 4: as it would have on this landscape for thousands of years. Now,

700
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 4: we can't you know, we can't say that entirely because

701
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 4: you know, all these trees, all these forests are going

702
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 4: to be faced with some of these non native pathogens

703
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 4: like the emerald dashboar, Dutch elms disease, and whatever. But

704
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 4: at least we know that if it doesn't have these

705
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 4: non native invasive plants, if it doesn't have some of

706
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 4: these other issues, that it should be able to develop

707
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 4: along this path way and.

708
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 3: Eventually become an old growth forest.

709
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 4: Now, if you have a forest that, for instance, has

710
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 4: non native invasive plants so here that I don't know

711
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 4: what we have over there, but here, that would be

712
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 4: like honeysuckle buckthorn, Japanese barberry, asiatic bittersweet, Yeah, got them all.

713
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: So those species, you know, I know you're probably thinking

714
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 4: it's just you know, it's just a plant. Who you know,

715
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 4: this is what people say to me all the time.

716
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 4: Those species fundamentally interfere with forest's ability to do everything

717
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 4: that they need to do, you know, and to regenerate,

718
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 4: to grow, to develop all of these qualities that will

719
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: eventually make them an old growth forest. And so you know,

720
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 4: by out competing all of our native species, they are

721
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 4: gonna make it so that the forest just can't get there.

722
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 4: And so that would be a forest that, you know,

723
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 4: you could say, I'm going to leave my forest alone

724
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 4: to become an old growth forest, but it's never going

725
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 4: to do that. And the same could be said for

726
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 4: extreme deer overpopulation. So you could have, for instance, you

727
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 4: could have an existing old growth forest today that is

728
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 4: basically declining, you know, maybe losing many of these qualities

729
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 4: that it's had for thousands of years because of an

730
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,439
Speaker 4: extreme dear over population or something like a non native

731
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 4: invasive plant that's preventing it from continuing to be able

732
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: to regenerate, you know, and develop and restore these qualities

733
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 4: that make it such an amazing ecological resource. Another other

734
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: things to look for, you know, in a forest that

735
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 4: maybe you can leave alone, is a lot of times

736
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 4: you look for these forests that may already have some

737
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 4: of the qualities. So like forest that has a lot

738
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 4: of big old trees. And I don't mean like sixty

739
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 4: year old pine trees. I mean like, you know, big,

740
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 4: big old, like two hundred year old trees. That because

741
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 4: those big old trees, as they die, will help to

742
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 4: create some of the other attributes of old forests, so

743
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 4: that we already have the big trees, which is one

744
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 4: part of it, and as they die, they'll tear through

745
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 4: the forest canopy, take out all these other trees, create

746
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 4: these canopy gaps, right, which will then regenerate and create

747
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 4: this multigenerationality, and that tree will be laying on the

748
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 4: ground creating that dead wood quality.

749
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: So that could be another thing to look for.

750
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 4: But you know, you can have all the big trees

751
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 4: you want if you've got Japanese barber in the understory.

752
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 3: It's not going to amount to anything in the long term.

753
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: It seems like true old growth forest and relatively new

754
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 2: or actively managed forest are effectively achieving the same thing.

755
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: We're just trying. There's two different methods. There's like the

756
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: way that comes about from hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

757
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: of years of it being left alone, and you get

758
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 2: natural disturbances, natural death, regrowth openings. You naturally create a

759
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: diverse matrix of an ecosystem and then by actively managing

760
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 2: we are trying to do that, but because of all

761
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: the other crazy things we've done to the land, we

762
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: have to be more involved in the process to recreate

763
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: that scenario. If we don't, you get this monolculture of

764
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 2: even age stuff invasives that never allows you to reach

765
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: that natural old growth diversity.

766
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 4: Right, yes, yeah, and I think you know there's a

767
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 4: there's a bunch of stuff there.

768
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 3: I think that.

769
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: Uh.

770
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 4: One of the other things that we should be thinking

771
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 4: about is time. Like even if a forest could develop

772
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: those qualities over time, we think that to develop all

773
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 4: the qualities of an old growth forest here in the

774
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 4: northeast three hundred years.

775
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: So you know, when we look.

776
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 4: At the numbers of like the species that we're losing,

777
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: seeing these sort of like widespread declines of wildlife species,

778
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 4: I would rather create those conditions in twenty years and

779
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 4: we can do it and maybe even if they're not

780
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 4: exactly the same. Like one thing example that I gave is,

781
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: like to the thousands of species of living things that

782
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 4: will utilize the habitat provided by a dead tree on

783
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 4: the ground, you think that any of them care if

784
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 4: that tree fell over if I cut it down right, No,

785
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: they don't. And so like, we can also do it

786
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 4: in small measures, like even if it's not a true

787
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 4: old growth for us, if we're providing that multigenerationality, you know,

788
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 4: by cutting trees strategically, if you ad a time creating

789
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 4: all these pockets of regeneration, we are providing some of

790
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 4: those benefits. If we are putting dead wood on the

791
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 4: ground and forests that have naturally a lot of dead

792
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 4: wood on the ground, we are providing some of those benefits.

793
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 4: If we're leaving some big old trees in the forest,

794
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 4: we're doing the same thing. So I think one of

795
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 4: the things that I often say about myself is that

796
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 4: one of my superpowers is that I'm not a purist, right,

797
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: and so it allows me to instead of getting just

798
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 4: totally bogged down in like trying to do the perfect

799
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 4: thing and create a perfect old growth forest, I'm like,

800
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 4: how's about we just do what we can right now

801
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 4: to create the habitats that we need right now. And

802
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 4: you know, if we want to, good news is we

803
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 4: don't have to do all of any one thing. Like

804
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 4: you said, we can also have areas where we're just

805
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: doing this past and management thing. We're letting them do

806
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 4: their own thing, but where we can, like, let's do

807
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 4: what we can and not be afraid so afraid that

808
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 4: we don't do anything.

809
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the hunting community, i would say broadly, is

810
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: very comfortable talking about, you know, adding things to the

811
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 2: landscape that will make for better wildlife habitat and better

812
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: wildlife populations and hunting opportunities. Right, anyone listening to this

813
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: will be all for Hey, you know, yeah, let's let's

814
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 2: do some timber works, some timber stand improvement. That'll get

815
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: some more critters out there. That sounds great. But the

816
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 2: white elephant in the room, or the elephant in the room,

817
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: or how Howards sing go, is the fact that sometimes

818
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: removing something might actually be the most important thing to

819
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: creating this healthier ecosystem, which is the critter that a

820
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: lot of us really like a lot and like to

821
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: see and hunt, which is deer. Yeah, and you you write,

822
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: you write very well about this topic in your book,

823
00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: exploring this topic and exploring the impacts that deer have

824
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: on the landscape negatively. And this one is a tough

825
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: one for the deer hunting community here because a lot

826
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: of people want more deer. I want to see more deer,

827
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 2: or I want to see a bigger deer, or whatever

828
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,879
Speaker 2: it is. Can you can you help me understand from

829
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,479
Speaker 2: a forester's perspective and from someone who has seen many, many,

830
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: many different wild places and forested landscapes, and you've seen

831
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 2: the good, the bad, and the ugly. What does an

832
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 2: overpopulation of deer due to a forest and what's the

833
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: ripple effects of that on the ecosystem.

834
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 4: It's such a it's such a profound question. It's actually interesting.

835
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 4: You mentioned all the Leopold he blew the whistle on

836
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 4: deer overpopulation in like the nineteen twenties, right in the

837
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 4: essay Thinking like a Mountain, we talked about you know,

838
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 4: he shoots a wolf, right, and then he talks about

839
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 4: the impact of that, the loss of those predators and

840
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,480
Speaker 4: the landscape. And still I think that we don't, you know,

841
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 4: a as a people, we don't really understand it that well.

842
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 4: So here in Vermont we have, you know, we think,

843
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 4: let's say, in an average eastern forest that we can

844
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 4: sustain maybe twenty deer per square mile, which is not

845
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 4: a lot a square mile, six hundred and forty acres,

846
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 4: so we might have here, you know, twenty five to

847
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: thirty deer per square mile on average. So what we

848
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 4: see is that you know, sort of the first levels

849
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 4: of the impact of deer over population. I call it

850
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 4: like early stage deer overpopulation, which is where you know,

851
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 4: deer are smart and they have preferences for the stuff

852
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 4: that they like to eat. They will always eat the

853
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 4: most nutritious food first. Interestingly, when they're in environments with predators,

854
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 4: that's not always true because in addition toretors lowering their populations,

855
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 4: it also really changes their behavior, so they can't always

856
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 4: get to the most nutritious food first, right, because the

857
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 4: predators are making them go to areas that are where

858
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 4: they have escape paths and other things. So that's another

859
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 4: impact of not having predators on the landscape is just

860
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 4: that they are free to you know, eat whatever then

861
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 4: the most nutritious food is without having to worry about

862
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: predators that much. So they eat the most nutritious food

863
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 4: those preferred browse species and they leave behind less preferred species.

864
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: So as there's more and more deer in the landscape,

865
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 4: you see fewer and fewer of those preferred browse species unfortunately,

866
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 4: which are also often the same species that we want

867
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 4: to grow for wildlife, for timber and other values. So

868
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 4: here that species like the oaks, sugar maple, yellow birch,

869
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 4: and you know, the more deer there are, the less

870
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 4: and less of those species you see, and the more

871
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 4: of other species that you see, species that deer don't

872
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 4: like to eat because they don't have very nutritious foliage.

873
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 3: So that'll be species like beach.

874
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 4: Hophorn, beam, ironwood in non native invasive plants which hazel

875
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 4: to a certain extent, straight maple, some of these other

876
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: species that are also typically sort of considered weeds. So

877
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 4: what they're doing, the reason that this is a problem

878
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 4: is that through their browsing habits, they're fundamentally changing the

879
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 4: composition of that forest and all the benefits that it's

880
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 4: providing to all the other things that live there and

881
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 4: to us as well, right as we also get things

882
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 4: from the forest.

883
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: So they're making it.

884
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 4: So that those little trees, those little oaks, those little

885
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 4: sugar maples, never get to be big trees that go

886
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 4: up into the canopy and make this beautiful, healthy, diverse forest. Now,

887
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 4: as you get into higher and higher deer over populations,

888
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: you see this impact increase. So you see that, you know,

889
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 4: you might get to a place where you don't have

890
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 4: any woody species, no shrubs, no young trees in the understory.

891
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 4: You might only have like grasses Japanese still grass or something,

892
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 4: or you might have nothing. This is a process that

893
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 4: we call and this is at the extreme ends of

894
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 4: the overpopulation spectrum. Like some of these forests that I've

895
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 4: been on this speaking tour and touring through the mid

896
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 4: Atlantic and seeing places like outside of Riding Pennsylvania three

897
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty deer per square mile their target eight

898
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 4: Maryland two hundred deer per square mile their target probably

899
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 4: less than fifteen. You know, it's like really wild and

900
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 4: there's just nothing there, right, And that might you know,

901
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 4: create a forest that looks good because there's there's no understory.

902
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 3: Again, you can see right through it. But where are

903
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 3: the future.

904
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 4: Generations of oaks right that are going to replace those

905
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 4: oaks in the canopy that will eventually die. Where are

906
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 4: those other species, those are bacious species in those shrubs

907
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 4: that deer are also going to feed on during the

908
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 4: summer at other parts of their life cycle, right, Where

909
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 4: is the cover that they're going to hide their fawns

910
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 4: in right like where there are so many other things

911
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 4: that are required to protect this species. And what we're

912
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 4: seeing is where that deer overpopulation gets extreme. You know,

913
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 4: we think about it forester or is kind of curse

914
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,360
Speaker 4: it deer because they prevent us from growing future generations

915
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 4: of trees. But in preventing forests from growing future generations

916
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 4: of trees, you fundamentally prevent forests from just being resilient

917
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 4: and being able to grow and being able to provide

918
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 4: habitat not just now but also in the future. So

919
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: you know, we also see it. I know that in

920
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 4: the Midwest deer eat a lot of food out of

921
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 4: crop fields, which is less the case here, So you

922
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 4: might still see big deer even when you have an

923
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 4: extreme overpopulation, and that's because you know, normally what happens

924
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 4: is they eat all the most utricious food out the landscape,

925
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 4: and the deer get smaller and smaller and smaller. Where

926
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 4: you have this like soybeans and stuff like that for

927
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 4: them to eat, it sort of like disrupts that feedback.

928
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 4: But normally what you see is deer get smaller and

929
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 4: smaller and smaller, they get less and less healthy. But

930
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 4: there seems to be no external checks on their population, right,

931
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 4: Like I can get to three hundred and fifty deer

932
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 4: per square mile, you know this thing, it's not just

933
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 4: like it's going to magically correct itself.

934
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:07,399
Speaker 3: I don't know when it would.

935
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 4: Maybe when they get to a thousand per square mile.

936
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 4: And so we have to then step into this role

937
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 4: of recognizing that, like it or not, we are the

938
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 4: predator of this animal, and it's our job to maintain,

939
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 4: you know, not the highest level of deer in our landscape,

940
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 4: but a sustainable level of deer in our landscape so

941
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 4: that we can have future generations of deer and everything else.

942
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: And you know, you spoke about this earlier, and you

943
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: know at length within the book this fact that we

944
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: are living amidst a long drawn out but very impactful

945
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: mass extinction event where we are losing many, many species,

946
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 2: or at least they're there the amount I'm lack of

947
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: struggling to think of the word I'm looking for here,

948
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: but we are losing a lot of critters. And while

949
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 2: deer seem particularly weedy and resilient and they can deal

950
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: with anything, there's a lot of other species out there

951
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 2: that can't. And so what's happening here is that we're

952
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: getting crazy high deer populations that are doing what you

953
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: just describe to the forest or the grasslands or the suburban,

954
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,280
Speaker 2: you know, interface whatever it is, and they're mowing down

955
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 2: all of this other vegetation and herbaceous content that songbirds

956
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: and pollinators and all sorts of other species that are

957
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: struggling neat. So it's and then as you said earlier,

958
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 2: it's all connected. So all that stuff eventually is going

959
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: to come back around and hurt whatever the thing is

960
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: you care about, whether it's deer or turkey's or quail. Right,

961
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: and too many deeri is not a good thing.

962
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 4: And it's easier to make that argument here in the

963
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 4: Northeast because because we don't have the level of agriculture

964
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 4: that folks in the Midwest have, Like we see a

965
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 4: very clear connection where the more deer they are there are,

966
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 4: the smaller they are. And you know, and that's like

967
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 4: a very clear story that we can doesn't mean that

968
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: everybody takes that on board, right, but it's a it's

969
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 4: it makes it a little bit a little bit more clear,

970
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 4: and uh, you know, we want to grow bigger deer.

971
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 4: You know, I think a lot of hunters out there

972
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 4: would rather kill fewer, bigger deer right than a lot

973
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 4: of little teeny tiny deer. They're not like, you know,

974
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 4: I'm I'm a I'm a different one in that I'm

975
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 4: I'm like totally a meat hunter. So I will kill

976
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 4: you know, more little tiny does from a population control

977
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 4: perspective and put them in the freezer. But but most

978
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 4: people are not like that, and I think that we

979
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's interesting actually, as a side note,

980
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 4: that the reason that the deer gets smaller is not

981
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 4: because they're like physically crowded, but because they're actually stripping

982
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 4: all of the most nutritious food off the landscape. And

983
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 4: as there are more and more deer, there's and less

984
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 4: of that nutritious food that's there. Yeah, and that nutritious

985
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 4: food is also like, you know, plants that just aren't

986
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 4: there anymore because deer have eaten literally all of them,

987
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 4: and that's why they're getting smaller.

988
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: So what's your ask of hunters? Is it as simple

989
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: as just shoot more deer or is there more to

990
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 2: it or more thought to be put into it?

991
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it depends. You know, here in Vermont again,

992
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 4: where we have this deer population that's in most parts

993
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 4: of the state. We also have like a northeastern part

994
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 4: of the state that's pretty boreal that is not really

995
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 4: overpopulated in some areas in the mountains that are not.

996
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 4: But a lot of the state we think we are,

997
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 4: you know, somewhere like twenty five plus percent overpopulated. If

998
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 4: we just had enough hunters and we had them hunting

999
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,720
Speaker 4: in the right way where they were willing to target dose,

1000
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 4: especially these really, really really good hunters, the best hunters,

1001
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 4: most of whom are like totally focused on bucks, and

1002
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 4: we got them to like, you know, be willing to

1003
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: play a few dos out of there, we could lower

1004
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 4: this population to a sustainable level. But we're you know,

1005
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 4: we're sort of it's not working out on both counts.

1006
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 4: On one count, like we're losing fifty percent of our

1007
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 4: hunters per decade, which you can think of as like

1008
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 4: and that's because of demographics, right, They're just getting older

1009
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 4: and younger generations aren't picking up that mantle. One thing

1010
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,359
Speaker 4: that I'm really trying to do is to message this

1011
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 4: idea of you know, trying to get new people who

1012
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 4: maybe would not typically think of themselves as hunters into

1013
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 4: hunting and using different entry points, Like it's not just

1014
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 4: about you know, you grew up hunting with your with

1015
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 4: your grandpa or whatever. It's also about you want a

1016
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 4: sustainable source of meat, best source of meat imaginable that

1017
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 4: you can harvest. Well, you're solving an environmental problem, right,

1018
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 4: and then also trying to you know, have these new

1019
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 4: ideas about taking dose, which when I grew up that

1020
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 4: was sort of like considered taboo because it was the

1021
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 4: population you see, less deer, and it's also like a

1022
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 4: macho you know, you want to kill these big big

1023
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 4: bucks and whatever. So so change that culture as well

1024
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 4: in some of these other areas though, and the research

1025
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 4: suggests that it's about forty deer per square mile. Once

1026
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 4: there's about above forty deer per square mile, traditional recreational

1027
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 4: hunting is no longer effective at actually reducing those populations

1028
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 4: to a sustainable level. And so that's when we need

1029
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 4: to think about some like real shifts in like the

1030
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 4: rules of how we do this in some places that

1031
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 4: could look like a culling, like hiring sharpshooters. I'm really

1032
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 4: interested instead of doing that in seeing if we can't

1033
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 4: wrap our heads around market hunting so thinking about if

1034
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 4: we had those hunters among us. I'm sure some of

1035
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 4: them are listening right now. Imagine if hunting was your job,

1036
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, And imagine if we recognize the fact that,

1037
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 4: you know, we have this incredibly sustainable source of meat

1038
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 4: that we can that is beautiful and delicious, and that

1039
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 4: we can harvest while solving all these problems, and that

1040
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 4: we made it legal for it to be sold in

1041
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 4: supermarkets and restaurants.

1042
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 3: That's a lot of food.

1043
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 4: And at the same time that we're doing that, we

1044
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 4: could be you know, if we did it in the

1045
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 4: right way, we could be uh, you know, having healthier ecosystems.

1046
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can see the appeal to that idea.

1047
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: At the same time, it scares the hell out of me,

1048
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: I know, because the details, the slippery slope that market

1049
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 2: hunting let us down, you know, one hundred and fifty

1050
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 2: years ago, two hundreds of years ago. So I sure

1051
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: hope that we as a hunting public can pick up

1052
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: the the burden the responsibility of taking care of this

1053
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: ourselves before it ever gets to that point. Yeah. So

1054
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 2: then I think we jump on it and do it.

1055
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 3: I think what we need.

1056
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 4: To do then is like those of you who are

1057
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,759
Speaker 4: like really good hunters start plugging them doughs man. Yeah,

1058
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 4: And I think that, like, like if you you know,

1059
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 4: there are there are a lot of food shelves that

1060
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 4: would love to take your meat and even if it's

1061
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 4: more meat than you can stand, and it's just such

1062
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 4: a beautiful thing. So like think about it as like

1063
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 4: this is the way that we, uh, you know, this

1064
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 4: is the way that we that we protect everything really

1065
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 4: and if you're a hunter, I think it's a responsibility

1066
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 4: to be targeting dose in a different way.

1067
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 3: And I know that.

1068
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 4: Like then the other part of it is is getting

1069
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 4: new people into it, right, which is something we want

1070
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 4: to do anyway to protect our culture and our traditions,

1071
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 4: so like we don't want to see hunting die, and

1072
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 4: so part of that might be, like you know, reaching

1073
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 4: out to people who you know would traditionally think of

1074
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 4: themselves as hunters and trying to get them into it,

1075
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,800
Speaker 4: no matter who they are or how they're coming at it.

1076
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 2: It's incredibly rewarding. It's it's not just practically necessary, which

1077
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: it is it is. It's a necessity now we need

1078
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 2: to do what you're saying, but it's also a lot

1079
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 2: of fun like I've been able to be a part

1080
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 2: of this now for quite a while, helping new hunters

1081
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: who who come from different backgrounds, who haven't done this

1082
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 2: kind of thing before, and to see the the joy,

1083
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 2: the surprise, this kind of you know, I've heard from

1084
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: so many people who came to it just as you described, like, Hey,

1085
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 2: I want to have a deeper connection to my food,

1086
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: but I grew up in the city or whatever, but

1087
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: I've been intrigued and then they finally get out there

1088
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 2: and they had this experience. And maybe you've heard this too,

1089
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: but so many people I've talked to describe it as

1090
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 2: reconnecting with something that was like deep inside of them, like,

1091
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 2: oh wow, this feels so right. This all of a

1092
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: sudden feels like I'm doing something that I was born

1093
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: to do in some kind of strange way, and then

1094
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 2: eating that meat and feeling a totally new sensation and

1095
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: experience when consuming a meal, you know, having that from

1096
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: beginning to end connection to it. Man, it's so rewarding

1097
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 2: to help someone experience that for the first powerful stuff.

1098
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 3: You know, And it's for me.

1099
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 4: My dad was my dad quote unquote taught me to hunt,

1100
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 4: and then I learned as an adult when I got

1101
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 4: back into it that everything you taught me was basically wrong.

1102
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 4: He had been mentored by these other people. So it

1103
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 4: took me a while to really get good at it.

1104
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 3: And it was my.

1105
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 4: Fault because what I didn't do was seek out mentorship.

1106
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 4: But I think that it's also incumbent upon us, who

1107
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 4: now know our way around this thing, to to not

1108
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 4: just like accept people who want to learn from us,

1109
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 4: but to seek them out right and and to really

1110
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 4: try to like bring along that that future generation.

1111
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 3: I don't think it's just gonna happen.

1112
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 4: Like the demographically we're seeing that we're just fewer hunters

1113
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 4: all the time, So we need to be like proactively

1114
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 4: reaching out to people to share this knowledge that we have.

1115
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 4: And you know, again, like might be different kinds of people,

1116
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 4: Like I don't know why we don't have like a

1117
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 4: whole contingent of hunters who are just like folks who

1118
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 4: are concerned about the morality of eating commodity meat. Like

1119
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 4: if you don't like the way beef is produced in

1120
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 4: this country and you want to eat meat, like go.

1121
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 3: Kill and kill some deer.

1122
00:58:58,720 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: No better.

1123
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's like the most sustainable meat imaginable and

1124
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 4: again you're helping out an ecosystem or you know, people

1125
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 4: concerned about, uh, the way the ability of our forest

1126
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 4: to sequester in store carbon. You know what prevents forests

1127
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 4: from sequestering in store carbon when they're collapsing because there's

1128
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 4: too many deer. So yeah, it's just it's just everything

1129
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 4: and same thing. I'm a birder too. I'm like, why

1130
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,479
Speaker 4: aren't these birders hunting deer? All these birders telling telling

1131
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 4: me this stuff about you know, all these birds that

1132
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 4: rely on this certain type of habitat in these areas

1133
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 4: with deer overpopulations, those birds just aren't there anymore.

1134
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: And I'm like, well, what are you going to do

1135
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 3: about it?

1136
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 1: You know?

1137
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 2: Great, it goes the other way too.

1138
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 4: By the way, just just as a shout out to birding,

1139
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 4: I think that every hunter should become a burder because

1140
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 4: for me, it scratches a really similar itch to hunting,

1141
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 4: where it's like you're you're like stalking this thing, you know,

1142
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 4: and then you're you're trying to get it. And what

1143
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 4: you're trying to do is, you know, not just know

1144
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,160
Speaker 4: what it is by ear, but but to lay eyes

1145
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 4: on it or get oars on it and then once

1146
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 4: you've got your binoculars on it, it's like you got

1147
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 4: your shot.

1148
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 3: You know.

1149
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: That's the funny. I always I overlooked birds, I guess

1150
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 2: in some ways for a lot of years until I

1151
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: had kids. And my children and my wife kind of

1152
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 2: have rekindled this awareness in me and this interest because

1153
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: now the kids are so excited that they see the

1154
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 2: world through new eyes, right, and so blue jay is fascinating.

1155
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: A red throated thrasher is you know, is incredible. And

1156
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:33,840
Speaker 2: so now all of a sudden, we have bird books

1157
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 2: everywhere and binoculars at all the windows of the house,

1158
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 2: and we go hiking. We're carrying that stuff with me

1159
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 2: and my son is drawing pictures of the different birds

1160
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 2: he's seeing, and you know, we're you know, also to

1161
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 2: the new technology now that can help you identify birds

1162
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: by their song. All of it has been really eye

1163
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 2: opening and really neat to just start seeing these different

1164
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 2: layers out there on the right.

1165
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 4: Well also because like the you know, the bird, every

1166
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 4: species bird utilize this habitat that's a little different, right,

1167
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,440
Speaker 4: So it's a really good way to sort of conceptualize

1168
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 4: the benefits provided by that complexity where you have bird

1169
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 4: species that are really closely linked with like deadwood on

1170
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 4: the ground, you know that nest on the root balls

1171
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 4: of uprooted trees, or that nest in the understore or

1172
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 4: forage in the understore, or you know, live in these

1173
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 4: areas of young forests like woodcock and rough grouse, and

1174
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 4: you know flycatchers that utilize canopy gaps and nuthatches that

1175
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 4: forage on the bark of big trees and all of these.

1176
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 4: You know, it seems like for every quality in the

1177
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 4: forest that we want to create, there's a bird that

1178
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 4: lives in that thing. And so it's a really good

1179
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 4: way of understanding just like all the stuff that we

1180
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 4: need to be taken care of when we care for forests.

1181
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 2: So when we're looking at prescriptions, we've already talked about

1182
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 2: one of them that being we need to seriously manage

1183
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: our deer herds. That's that's an easy win, right because

1184
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 2: we like to hunt. The people listening to this right

1185
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 2: now are already we're on board with hunting. We know

1186
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: how to do it. Here there's the easy one. But

1187
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 2: prescription number two and beyond might be what could we

1188
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: do with our landscape. We've talked generally about how adding

1189
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,919
Speaker 2: diversity and complexity is important, and yeah, a great way

1190
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: to move forward. But can you can you give me

1191
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 2: a couple ideas for someone who's listening, who owns a chainsaw,

1192
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: you know, who could go out there and do something

1193
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 2: on their twenty acres or eighty acres or whatever it is.

1194
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: Could you give us an idea or two that, from

1195
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 2: your perspective, is a great way to start managing our

1196
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: force a little bit better. That's going to help our

1197
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 2: goals as hunters and wildlife managers. But then also the

1198
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 2: whole ecosystem. I've read about you talking about patch cuts

1199
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 2: and all sorts of different things. But what might you recommend?

1200
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is exciting too because both with with hunters

1201
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 4: and birders. Actually, I've I've really wanted to like infuse

1202
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 4: a little bit more complexity into the way we talk

1203
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 4: about forestry. Like, so my buddies, buddies are good hunters here,

1204
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 4: you know, they're like I went and there was a cut,

1205
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 4: you know, I went to Maine and there was there

1206
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 4: was a cut there, and I'm like.

1207
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 3: What does this mean? You know where birds are?

1208
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 4: Like they logged and I'm like, okay, you know that

1209
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 4: could mean anything. A lot of times people talk about

1210
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 4: clear cutting and selective cutting, and selective cutting, I guess

1211
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 4: is just anything that's not a clear cut, like if

1212
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 4: there's any trees, you know, which could mean a million

1213
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,800
Speaker 4: different things. I think as for your landowners, the most

1214
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 4: impactful and most efficient tool that you could use, the

1215
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 4: most efficient prescription, we would call it type of cutting

1216
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 4: that you could do, is what we call crop tree release.

1217
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 4: So crop tree release is basically your crop tree is it?

1218
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't it's not a tree that has

1219
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 4: to produce a crop like timber, but just any tree

1220
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 4: that you want to encourage. Oftentimes, you know, if we're

1221
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 4: thinking about deer, it's producing a crop like acorns, right

1222
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 4: or hickory nuts. So what you do is instead of

1223
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 4: going into your forest and doing what we all do initially,

1224
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:04,439
Speaker 4: which is like look for any tree that is something

1225
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 4: wrong with it and go cut it, any tree that

1226
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 4: is a defect that just seems like it's not healthy.

1227
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 4: Instead we like laser focus on our healthiest trees. And specifically,

1228
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 4: if you're thinking about wildlife habitat, you know, and producing

1229
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 4: those those hard mass species like acorns, you could be

1230
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 4: laser focused on oaks and hickories, say, or any other

1231
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 4: species that's producing a mass that you want to encourage

1232
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: for wildlife. And what you do is you cut the

1233
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 4: trees that are competing with those crop trees individually. So

1234
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:37,919
Speaker 4: you go up, walk up to your crop tree, your oak,

1235
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 4: you look up in the canopy, you see what other

1236
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 4: trees are touching the canopy of your.

1237
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 3: Crop tree, and you cut them.

1238
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 4: And the reason that this is such a good technique

1239
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 4: is because it makes it so that every single cut

1240
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 4: that you make is actively proactively encouraging the health of

1241
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 4: your healthiest trees. Right Whereas for most of us landowners

1242
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 4: it's like it's like an efficiency thing. We only have

1243
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 4: so much time and so much energy, and so we

1244
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,000
Speaker 4: need to make the work that we do in the forest,

1245
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 4: whether we're just working with a chainsaw or pulling out

1246
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 4: our firewood for the year or whatever, the most impactful.

1247
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 3: And that's how you do it.

1248
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 4: But you don't want to just have only crop trees,

1249
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 4: like you'll want to also if you can look for

1250
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 4: areas of unhealthy trees, pockets of unhealthy trees, or pockets

1251
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 4: that are maybe overtopping areas of really good regeneration, like

1252
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 4: a bunch of young oaks and you can create some

1253
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 4: gaps in the canopy as well, you know, and they

1254
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 4: could be all different shapes and sizes, and you can

1255
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 4: do that at the same time that you're managing your

1256
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 4: crop trees. One thing that you can do to sort

1257
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 4: of help the deer not ruin their own future is

1258
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 4: that when you cut those trees down, you can leave

1259
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:48,280
Speaker 4: them on the ground and don't cut them up, or

1260
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 4: just leave the tree tops on the ground, don't cut

1261
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 4: the tree tops up and create this like big jumbled

1262
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,439
Speaker 4: tangled mess that then is going to provide a little

1263
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:58,320
Speaker 4: bit of structural protection for those seedlings that are there

1264
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 4: or that are going to establish there to be protected

1265
01:06:01,040 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 4: from deer bras. So that's one thing you can also do.

1266
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 4: We also know that we need across the landscape, we

1267
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 4: need areas of young forest. So in addition to having

1268
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,959
Speaker 4: our forests, you know, these young civil forests that haven't

1269
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 4: really had time to develop this complexity sort of this

1270
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 4: within the forest complexity, we also have landscapes that, because

1271
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 4: of their landscape history, haven't had time to develop landscape

1272
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 4: level diversity. So one thing that we're sort of always

1273
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 4: concerned about is not having enough young forest, which you know,

1274
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,800
Speaker 4: early early successional habitat. You might have also heard it

1275
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 4: called which is what's created when you create a larger opening,

1276
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 4: and that in that case, we're talking about two acres

1277
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 4: at a minimum, right, and it could be much larger.

1278
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 4: One thing that we can do to make that early

1279
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 4: successional habitat even better is by leaving you know, some

1280
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 4: retention within that big area, some cover for wildlife so

1281
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:55,960
Speaker 4: they don't have to like to cross it to cross

1282
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 4: a giant expanse. If there are a species that worries

1283
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:00,919
Speaker 4: about that kind of thing, you could lead eve oak

1284
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,439
Speaker 4: trees and other mass producing species in there to see

1285
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 4: future generations of trees, and also just to provide a

1286
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 4: little bit of complexity as that young forest grows up,

1287
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 4: so it's not just producing another simple, even aged forest.

1288
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 4: It's producing, you know, a young forest that also has

1289
01:07:14,960 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 4: some areas of older trees in it as well.

1290
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 3: So with that it's a little bit trickier.

1291
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 4: What I would recommend that you do is sort of

1292
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:26,240
Speaker 4: think about your landscape, you know, think about looking at

1293
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,560
Speaker 4: not just your property but the properties of all all

1294
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 4: around and trying to.

1295
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 3: See if you could have of the forests that are there.

1296
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 4: You know, it'll depend on where you are, but maybe

1297
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 4: like five percent in that young forest condition, and if

1298
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 4: you already have that, maybe you don't need to create

1299
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:42,919
Speaker 4: that condition. But if all your forests around you are

1300
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,320
Speaker 4: like older, it might be that you can provide this

1301
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 4: really important habitat that's useful to all kinds of critters

1302
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 4: from far and wide.

1303
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 2: Love it does all seem you know, if you those

1304
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 2: are all things you can do without big, fancy equipment.

1305
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 2: There are things that you can do without being you know,

1306
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 2: rich or particularly uh particularly well, you know, supplied with

1307
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: with money or equipment, a chainsaw, some basic safety understanding,

1308
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 2: and the willingness to uh to sweat a little bit,

1309
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 2: you can make a big difference out there.

1310
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, And can I just say one other thing, which

1311
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 4: is that you know, for landowners who can't do that right,

1312
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,400
Speaker 4: maybe you don't have those skills, or your you know,

1313
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 4: your health doesn't allow you to do that, or for

1314
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 4: whatever reason you don't want to do that.

1315
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 3: You got other stuff to do.

1316
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 4: This is one of the things that's so amazing about

1317
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 4: the fact that we you know, where we have mills

1318
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 4: and markets and loggers and truckers foresters that we can

1319
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 4: do this work commercially because it's just like a lot

1320
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 4: of this work it you know, forest management logging doesn't

1321
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 4: have to be solely about resource extraction. You can you

1322
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 4: use these loggers as this tool in a way where

1323
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 4: you can create a healthier, more diverse forest. You can

1324
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 4: produce local, renewable resources and income while doing the right thing.

1325
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 4: And the thing about that that's so amazing is that

1326
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,200
Speaker 4: it allows you to really do this work at scale.

1327
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 4: You know, you might be able to cover hundreds of

1328
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 4: acres a year instead of relying on a landowner who

1329
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 4: can do a couple acres a year or pay somebody

1330
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 4: to do a couple acres a year. Suddenly you're like, well,

1331
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 4: I can create these openings and I can create these

1332
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 4: forest conditions that are really amazing. And you know, that's

1333
01:09:28,280 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 4: not to say that logging isn't done in ways that

1334
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 4: are you know, harmful sometimes, but it's to say that

1335
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 4: it can be done in ways that are like incredibly positive,

1336
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 4: that provide really amazing habitats and conditions for wildlife and

1337
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 4: that really make forest healthier.

1338
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you I think it was the last chapter

1339
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 2: of your book you were just talking about, you know,

1340
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,160
Speaker 2: a key thing to making that all possible is just

1341
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:57,080
Speaker 2: aligning your goals with the loggers that are going out

1342
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,360
Speaker 2: there or the forester that's you know out there. It's saying, hey,

1343
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 2: here the things that I really care about, here's that

1344
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 2: I want done. You know, if you let a logger

1345
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:06,519
Speaker 2: just run rampant, maybe they will do it in a

1346
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,599
Speaker 2: way that's not aligned with your goals. But oftentimes, from

1347
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:11,680
Speaker 2: from my experience, the folks have talked to and of

1348
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,160
Speaker 2: course you know what you're telling us that if you

1349
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,720
Speaker 2: if there's a clear understanding across the board of what

1350
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 2: you're trying to achieve, there's usually a prescription that can

1351
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:22,960
Speaker 2: get you there that's good for the wildlife and can

1352
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 2: usually be a win win for someone on the commercial

1353
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 2: side too.

1354
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what I say is like loging, logging ain't logging.

1355
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 4: You know, it's not a monolith. It can be the

1356
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 4: all different kinds of ways. And the example I give

1357
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:34,960
Speaker 4: in the book is like, you know, I use these

1358
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,840
Speaker 4: loggers that I know had done unethical things in the past,

1359
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:40,680
Speaker 4: but I also had a relationship with them where I

1360
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 4: knew that they were honest and trustworthy people and that

1361
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 4: they would do what I asked them to do. So

1362
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 4: the difference was just you know, having them be supervised

1363
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:50,920
Speaker 4: and you know, sort of like targeted in the right

1364
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 4: way by a forester. In this case myself, that that

1365
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,640
Speaker 4: allowed me to utilize them in a way that was

1366
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 4: beneficial to their business, but then also that you know,

1367
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,679
Speaker 4: beneficial to my objectives as a landowner and as a forester.

1368
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 4: And so I would say that, you know, definitely work

1369
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:10,040
Speaker 4: with a forester. The job of the forester is to

1370
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 4: represent your interest as a landowner, and also make sure

1371
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 4: when you hire a forester that it's it's not like

1372
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 4: hiring any old, you know, professional where they're all the same.

1373
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 4: My my old boss and mentor, Dave Paganelli, he was like,

1374
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 4: hiring a forester is like hiring an artist to paint

1375
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:31,799
Speaker 4: your portrait.

1376
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:33,880
Speaker 3: A hundred of them would do it in a hundred

1377
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 3: different ways. And so what you should do.

1378
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 4: Is like pick the right ones, take the time to

1379
01:11:38,880 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 4: like have a conversation with that forester and make sure

1380
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 4: your values are aligned so that you know that you're

1381
01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 4: getting the person who's gonna manage those loggers and that

1382
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 4: use in the.

1383
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:49,360
Speaker 3: Best way possible.

1384
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's great advice. So with that in mind,

1385
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 2: then we're just scratching the surface here. I feel like

1386
01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: of a lot of things, there's there's so much more

1387
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 2: to to explore or to discuss. So if somebody wants

1388
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 2: to connect with you your content, your book, social media, anything

1389
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 2: like that, where can they go plug it all for

1390
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 2: us real quick?

1391
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 3: Sure?

1392
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 4: So I'm on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok.

1393
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 3: At how to Love a Forest, just like the title

1394
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:21,759
Speaker 3: of the book.

1395
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 4: And the book's called How to Love a Forest, The

1396
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,800
Speaker 4: bittersweet work of tending a changing world. It should be

1397
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:31,519
Speaker 4: out pretty much anywhere. If it's not at your local

1398
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 4: independent bookstore or your library, asks for it and I'll

1399
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:39,000
Speaker 4: get it for you. It's also an audiobook. And yeah,

1400
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 4: and actually just had a children's.

1401
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:42,560
Speaker 3: Book come out.

1402
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,560
Speaker 4: It's called Willow in the Storm, which is largely about

1403
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 4: you know, one of the building blocks of like helping

1404
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 4: people do the right things for forests is sometimes getting

1405
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 4: them to understand how the death of a tree could

1406
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 4: ever be something positive, and you know, seeing people just

1407
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 4: not be able to wrap their heads around that. So

1408
01:12:57,520 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 4: I wrote a children's book that was about both tree

1409
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:01,719
Speaker 4: death and person death.

1410
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 3: Cool idea of end of life.

1411
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 4: This little girl who sort of like is dealing with

1412
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 4: this disturbance in her for us and also death in

1413
01:13:07,240 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 4: her family. So that's called Willow and the Storm. And

1414
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 4: you know, I hope that I'm in some small way

1415
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:14,759
Speaker 4: that will help us have a better, better relationship to

1416
01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 4: to uh doing what we got.

1417
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:17,919
Speaker 3: To do to help make forests healthier.

1418
01:13:18,760 --> 01:13:19,439
Speaker 2: That's perfect.

1419
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, and yeah, I think that that's it. Yeah, Ethan

1420
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,800
Speaker 4: Tapper dot com. If you want to bring me, you know,

1421
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 4: I do these speaking tours now all the time. If

1422
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 4: you want to bring me to where you are, just

1423
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 4: reach out to me through you through Ethan Tapper dot com.

1424
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 2: Awesome, well, Ethan, I appreciate the work you're doing, the

1425
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 2: message you're sharing. I think it's I think it's needed.

1426
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 2: I think it's it's really well presented. I think a

1427
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 2: lot of folks are going to enjoy this chat. And

1428
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 2: I'd certainly encourage people to pick up a book and

1429
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 2: the new book for the kids too. That sounds great.

1430
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to check that out.

1431
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Thank you.

1432
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 2: All right, and that will do it for us today.

1433
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 2: Appreciate you joining us. Thank you for being with me

1434
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 2: on this journey this past month or so as we

1435
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 2: explore habitat management improvement conservation, both on private land and beyond.

1436
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 2: It's important stuff, and I appreciate the fact that so

1437
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 2: many of you people are doing this good work on

1438
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 2: the landscape yourselves. I'll give you one quick plug if

1439
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 2: you're listening to this one of this episode just dropped.

1440
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:25,240
Speaker 2: A brand new film film of mine, came out on

1441
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 2: the meat Eater YouTube channel. It's about my Alaskan sick

1442
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 2: Co blacktail deer hunt. It's out today. Tuesday, April fifteenth

1443
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 2: is the date it drops, so check it out on

1444
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 2: the meat Eater YouTube channel and stay tuned. We'll have

1445
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,559
Speaker 2: much more to come on that infrequent or not frequent future.

1446
01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 2: This is the word I'm looking for in future episodes

1447
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 2: of this podcast. So that said, thanks again, I appreciate you,

1448
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:52,679
Speaker 2: and stay wired to Hunt.