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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session two sixty six of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy be for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right

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Speaker 1: into our conversation after a word from our sponsors. The

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Speaker 1: relationship we have with our therapists is unlike any other

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Speaker 1: we have in our lives. They typically know lots about us,

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Speaker 1: while we usually only knew a little about them. This

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Speaker 1: is designed so that our emotional safety and needs are

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Speaker 1: prioritized in the space, but it can also lead to

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Speaker 1: lots of questions that sometimes go unanswered. Joining me today

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Speaker 1: for another one of our group chat conversations. Are my

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Speaker 1: friends and colleagues Dr Ayanna Abrams and Dr Joy back

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Speaker 1: with both psychologists in Atlanta. We're answering some of the

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Speaker 1: questions you might have about your therapists that you didn't

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Speaker 1: want to ask. During our conversation, we chatted about whether

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Speaker 1: we actually have favorite our funniest clients, how we handle

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Speaker 1: seeing clients publicly, what it means if you find yourself

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Speaker 1: attracted to your therapist, and whether or not it's okay

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Speaker 1: to be friends with your therapists after you're done with therapy.

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Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please

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Speaker 1: share it with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: tpg in session, or join us over in the sister

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Speaker 1: circles to talk more in depth about the episode. You

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Speaker 1: can join us at Community not Therapy for Black Girls

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Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Oh my gosh, So the

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Speaker 1: infamous group chat is back once again, back in action.

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Speaker 1: I just love that y'all coming at such great information

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Speaker 1: because I think, again, these are some of the conversations

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Speaker 1: we are talking about in our group chat, but I

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Speaker 1: also think it's just great for people to hear about

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Speaker 1: some of the dynamics that happen in therapy that we

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Speaker 1: don't always know about, and so something I wanted to

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Speaker 1: chat with you all about today, or at least start

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Speaker 1: the conversation because we know when we get to talk,

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Speaker 1: and who knows where this conversation Asian will end up.

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Speaker 1: But I have recently been seeing a lot of jokes

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Speaker 1: on social media around wanting to be a therapist favorite client, right,

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Speaker 1: so I feel like I am my therapist favorite client,

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Speaker 1: or she always looked really happy to see me. I've

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Speaker 1: even seen a joke around somebody like being in a

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Speaker 1: waiting room and overhearing the therapist laughing with another client

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Speaker 1: and feeling like, oh, she didn't laugh that hard when

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Speaker 1: I'm with her, right, Like, am I not her funniest client?

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Speaker 1: Am I not her favorite? And I think that this

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Speaker 1: is a real thing, right like people mention it in passing,

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Speaker 1: But I think it really speaks to like all of

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Speaker 1: these different dynamics that happened with our therapists that we

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Speaker 1: don't even know. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah absolutely. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: aware that it was a thing, like it caught me

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Speaker 1: off guard and I had that exact same experience artr

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Speaker 1: Joy once where my client was waiting in the waiting

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Speaker 1: room and I was walking another client out and we

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Speaker 1: were chuckling, like we just finished, like chuckling or whatever

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Speaker 1: to end the session. And I remember starting with my

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Speaker 1: person and her saying, oh my gosh, like you look

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Speaker 1: really happy. You don't laugh like that with me, And

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Speaker 1: I think I sat with it afterwards, like wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: like things that you don't think people notice, like do

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Speaker 1: I make you happy? Now? I know? I think just

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Speaker 1: like in the larger world, like therapy is not exempted

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Speaker 1: from that, Like we want to be liked, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have the social desire for us to to be

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Speaker 1: liked and to be seen as a pleasant person. So

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Speaker 1: that is there and we're not exempt from that, and

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Speaker 1: so to see it in therapy, although it was shocking

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Speaker 1: to me in that moment, like hey, do you like

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Speaker 1: me as much as you like that person? Or am

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Speaker 1: I just as funny? It's like, wait a minute, you

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Speaker 1: are not here for my entertainment. This is not a

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Speaker 1: contest like who made me laugh the most during therapy?

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Speaker 1: And you don't know if I just tripped and like, oh,

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Speaker 1: let me gather my stuff before I go into the

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Speaker 1: waiting room, or you don't know what that chuckle was about.

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Speaker 1: So I get it. I understand the need to be

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Speaker 1: seen in a positive light, but I just didn't think

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Speaker 1: about it until that day. So I remember that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think most people they think about therapy and therapists,

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Speaker 1: they don't recognize that it's a relationship, that it is

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Speaker 1: a social relationship. It's an a typical social relationship because

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Speaker 1: there's not this back and forth sharing and kind of

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Speaker 1: vulnerability and kind of growing like we do in our

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Speaker 1: other relationships. But it is still social and as social beings,

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Speaker 1: we have this innate need to want to connect and

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Speaker 1: belong and be liked, and there are certain cues that

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Speaker 1: we receive that tell us that this person likes us.

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Speaker 1: So laughing and smiling and a warmth that's in the

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Speaker 1: room or like these kinds of things that we tend

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Speaker 1: to look for in our typical social relationships also show

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Speaker 1: up in the therapeutic relationship. And that's the main points

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Speaker 1: of therapy, right, is that people think that they're like

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Speaker 1: different people in the therapist office, and you're not. You

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Speaker 1: bring in your stuff to us, right, and actually gives

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Speaker 1: us an opportunity to really work through these things that

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Speaker 1: we know show up in your day to day life.

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Speaker 1: So there's a client who comes in and says, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious or maybe I'm even a little bit jealous

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Speaker 1: that you might not laugh that same way with me.

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Speaker 1: My guess is that shows up in other areas of

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Speaker 1: your life. And now we have some stuff that we

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Speaker 1: can talk about here. But I recognize that I think

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Speaker 1: largely the population, whether they go to therapy or not,

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Speaker 1: unless you have a certain kind of therapist who is

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Speaker 1: actually more relational and intentional about talking about our relationship,

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Speaker 1: they don't recognize that this is really about the foundation

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Speaker 1: of our relationship together and the safety and kind of

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Speaker 1: how we show up with each other, and our identities

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Speaker 1: and our needs and all those kinds of things. So

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Speaker 1: I know that there are ways in which many clients.

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Speaker 1: Is not all clients wonder about if their therapists likes them,

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Speaker 1: cares for them, thinks about them outside of session, gets

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Speaker 1: annoyed by them, thinks they're a burden. Right as we

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Speaker 1: see all these things, I have clients who say, sorry

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Speaker 1: for crying, I don't want to burn right. It's all

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Speaker 1: these same dynamics that show up because I want you

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Speaker 1: to like me, and I don't want to be too

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Speaker 1: difficult for you. I want you to have pleasant thoughts

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Speaker 1: about me, because that is how we want every want

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Speaker 1: essentially to be able to respond to us. So it

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Speaker 1: makes sense. So you're right the information if you're wondering

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Speaker 1: do you like me? Or oh my gosh, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm being a burden to you, of course it's

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Speaker 1: great information for us. Is this a feeling that you're

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Speaker 1: having in multiple relationships? Do you feel like you're burdened

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Speaker 1: in other relationships? I think we don't help it, and

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Speaker 1: we're very well trained. We are very well trained to

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Speaker 1: be like this blank slate and to not show this

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Speaker 1: gamut of emotions. And that is as you mentioned, like,

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Speaker 1: we have this a typical relationship. So it's like, here's

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Speaker 1: an interpersonal relationship that is a typocal So you know

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Speaker 1: where I'm expecting you not to have any thoughts or

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Speaker 1: any opinions or to feel any type of way. I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to just kind of pour. And whereas there other

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Speaker 1: signs and signals where a person is nodding, a smiling,

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Speaker 1: are all you're giving all of these other cues as

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Speaker 1: you approve of this, Oh, that's just as jacked up

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Speaker 1: to you as it is to me. You know, we

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Speaker 1: don't give you that. So here it is this blank slate. Here,

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Speaker 1: it is this person that's not giving me a lot

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Speaker 1: of verbal feedback or affirmations back or not affirming my experiences.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, what do I do Like?

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Speaker 1: Does she think them off or does she think this

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Speaker 1: is normal? Do you like me? Am I too much

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Speaker 1: for you? Are you mad at me? Do I think

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Speaker 1: like others think? And so being able to still show

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Speaker 1: up in that space and to talk about those feelings,

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Speaker 1: of course it's important so we can see. Is it

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Speaker 1: a mean thing like our relationship thing where you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: this in therapy or is this something that is consistent

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Speaker 1: throughout various relationships. So part of the dynamics of this

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Speaker 1: atypical relationship kind of waters this. You know, well wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, you know you didn't link, you didn't smile,

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Speaker 1: it didn't your cheeks are not up, or you know,

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Speaker 1: those things that where we normally get our signals and

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Speaker 1: our information from there kind of turned down in this relationship.

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Speaker 1: So so makes sense that we're wondering. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't know, so then that's why I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: the waiting room because I can't tell if you really

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Speaker 1: like me and not, so let me find some other cue.

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Speaker 1: Like you're laughing there in the waiting room, so M yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you ing up a really good point

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Speaker 1: doctor that I want to hear. Y'all talk more about

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Speaker 1: this idea, because I think it's a very real thing

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Speaker 1: of does my therapist think about me? Right? I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in some ways are hesitant to

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Speaker 1: even try therapy because it feels like a paid friendship, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, like, oh, I gotta pay somebody to

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Speaker 1: listen to me, and do they really care about me?

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Speaker 1: But I'm paying them, so of course they have to care, right.

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Speaker 1: How do you address those kinds of concerns or thoughts.

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Speaker 1: I've had clients literally say that to me when I

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Speaker 1: am I call it kind of an interpersonal process when

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Speaker 1: I'm checking in with how they might receive something that

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Speaker 1: I said and how it landed. And I've had some

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Speaker 1: clients say like, yeah, it does matter to me that

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Speaker 1: you think this way, or like I trust you and

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Speaker 1: you know me in such intimate ways that I'm that

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Speaker 1: I'm really kind of leaning into how you are assessing this.

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Speaker 1: And I've had some other clients say that I'm paying

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Speaker 1: you so like, I know that you can't be mean

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Speaker 1: to me. I know that you can't really like disagree

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Speaker 1: with me in here, and I'm just like, well, that's

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Speaker 1: not true. I can you with you and then we

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Speaker 1: can And again I have a way in which I

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Speaker 1: would do that therapeutically. But I think that does factor

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Speaker 1: into depending on who the person is, how they even

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Speaker 1: kind of understand or see the services, right. Do they

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Speaker 1: see it as a service, Do they see it as

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Speaker 1: a relationship? Do they see it as, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of something short term? I need you for this. You're

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Speaker 1: gonna move me through these three things. I need boom

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Speaker 1: boom boom, am I here because I'm mandated. I think

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Speaker 1: all those things mitigate how they even see the relationship

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Speaker 1: and if they do see it as a relationship and

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Speaker 1: there is trust and more than likely even if it's

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Speaker 1: long term and there's been vulnerability in there, it does

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Speaker 1: tap into this desire to be cared for and thought

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Speaker 1: of right in certain ways, and not only cared for

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Speaker 1: in terms of you answer my questions about this, but

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Speaker 1: do you actually care for me and my identities and

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Speaker 1: when I'm out in the world, when I'm not here,

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Speaker 1: and as Dr Joyce said, they have no clue unless

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Speaker 1: we say it. They have no clue whether I think

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Speaker 1: about them outside, even if I say them something like yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think about my clients, probably too much. I'll be

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Speaker 1: walking down the street and think about I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I think they just mentioned that they were here the

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Speaker 1: other day. Like, we think about you all much more

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Speaker 1: than you think we think about you, because we're also

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Speaker 1: trained to not add our stuff into the relationship. But

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Speaker 1: like I said, depending on what I've noticed, right, depending

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Speaker 1: on how clients even make it to therapy and that

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Speaker 1: they see it as a valuable relationship and or service

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Speaker 1: really mitigates what I notice of their concerns or even

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Speaker 1: interests in me thinking about them past what they are

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Speaker 1: saying to me in session. Yeah, no, absolutely, you're getting

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Speaker 1: at What is that? What is that thought rooted in?

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Speaker 1: Do you think about me outside of therapy? What is

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Speaker 1: that rooted in? Is it rooted in do you feel

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Speaker 1: that this is a paid relationship so you know it's

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Speaker 1: like okay, you're done and okay, got my money and

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Speaker 1: you're gone. Is that what you think you're worth it?

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Speaker 1: Is that what you think that? Oh, you know, people

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Speaker 1: are kind to me because I pay them. So I

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Speaker 1: love I love that that you said that, Dr A.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm also not afraid, you know, within boundaries,

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Speaker 1: within limits to let people know that we are, like

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Speaker 1: we're human. It's like here you are. It's like, hey,

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Speaker 1: here's a therapist, and it's like it just doesn't turn

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Speaker 1: on and turn off. And so yes, I do care

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Speaker 1: about your experience, like you said, Dr A, sometimes too much.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're out and you're like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: they've been wanting a nice place to go to, or

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Speaker 1: it seems to be there a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: are here and that are studying. This may be good

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Speaker 1: for such and such or you know. So yes, I

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Speaker 1: am thinking about you and thinking about you know, hoping

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Speaker 1: that you're well, and I am thinking about how can

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Speaker 1: I add to your treatment, like this place may be

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Speaker 1: a good place. Or if I see a book or

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Speaker 1: if I'm reading something, you know, where I think about you.

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Speaker 1: Or sometimes I'm like, you know, I really want to

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Speaker 1: make sure for next time we talk about this, and

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Speaker 1: I may do a lot of homework outside of the

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Speaker 1: session to make sure that I am caring for you

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Speaker 1: as best as possible in the session. So do I

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Speaker 1: think about you. Absolutely I think about you. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean every single day you're on my mind. But it

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Speaker 1: also doesn't mean that when you're out of sight, you're

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Speaker 1: out of mind too. And so being human to be

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Speaker 1: able to say, yeah, it's not that switch that goes

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Speaker 1: on and off. This is not at least the therapist

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Speaker 1: that I know my friends. This is not like a

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Speaker 1: paid friendship, you know, This is not a deeply care

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Speaker 1: about you and genuinely care about you your life and

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Speaker 1: this work. And so yeah, I think it goes back

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Speaker 1: to many people not understanding what therapy is. They think

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Speaker 1: that therapists are here to be nice to you and

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Speaker 1: to coddle you and to make you feel better, and

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Speaker 1: that's actually not what therapy is, right, So I think

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Speaker 1: it's also because that I've been seeing those infographic floating

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Speaker 1: around the internet says something like, that's why people think

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Speaker 1: that their friends or their therapists, because they think it's

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Speaker 1: just about talking about the thing and like sharing advice

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Speaker 1: versus like a treatment plan and like we're talking about

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Speaker 1: this and like a processing That's why you think your

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Speaker 1: partner can be your therapist. That's why you think your

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Speaker 1: friend can be your therapist or your hairstylist can be

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Speaker 1: your therapist because you actually don't understand that there's a

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Speaker 1: really kind of formal way in which we're moving through understanding.

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Speaker 1: And that's why this is not a friendship. That's why

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Speaker 1: we're not sharing things about each other, because there is

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Speaker 1: a formalized process us within a lot of this vulnerability

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Speaker 1: and conversation and opening and all this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's also about people when they don't

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Speaker 1: really understand what therapy is, whether in terms of like

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Speaker 1: how we're doing level setting or where they're getting information from.

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Speaker 1: They look for it to be a friendship. So they're

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Speaker 1: gonna do the same things they would do and expect

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Speaker 1: the same thing they would expect of their friends, which

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Speaker 1: is why you're looking for those same cues that you

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Speaker 1: would look for from a friend to say like, hey

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Speaker 1: does this person accept me? Do we belong? And it's there.

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Speaker 1: You're looking for those like those social cues to say like,

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Speaker 1: hey we are connected, we are good. They agree. You're

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Speaker 1: looking for that external validation that you would normally look

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Speaker 1: for in a friendship. And like you said, ay, we

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Speaker 1: know that for those who have been in therapy, who

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Speaker 1: have been in therapy for quite some time you realize like, no,

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Speaker 1: they don't just tell me all the positives and just

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Speaker 1: validate my experience. It's like no, some days you leave

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh man, that was tough or I

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Speaker 1: didn't like to hear that piece of information, but it

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Speaker 1: was necessary for me to hear it. And so it

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Speaker 1: is not this paid friendship where you were having coffee

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Speaker 1: and you're just laughing talking about what your experience has been. No,

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Speaker 1: there is structure. There is a treatment plan, and we

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Speaker 1: do what we call the work. M Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think to your both of your points around like therapy

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Speaker 1: being just it's a relationship but atypical, right because you're

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Speaker 1: not hearing all about our weekend plans and you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's not that kind of reciprocal nature to it.

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Speaker 1: But I do think when those moments happened, at least

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Speaker 1: for me, that makes the work so much richer because

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Speaker 1: now I get a fuller picture of like what's going

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Speaker 1: on with you, right, So we know that there is

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Speaker 1: the thing that clients come in with and then there's

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Speaker 1: all this other stuff. Right, So yes, we may be

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Speaker 1: working on you know, maybe you're having panic attacks, right,

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Speaker 1: and we're working on some stuff around that. But then

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Speaker 1: you have these conversations like, oh, you were laughing really

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Speaker 1: hard with this client in the wayning room, and do

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Speaker 1: you like me in those same ways? So now we

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Speaker 1: have an opportunity to talk about where else in your

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Speaker 1: life is that showing up right, and what does it

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Speaker 1: feel like you're needing for me? And what does that

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Speaker 1: say about our relationship in terms of working together. So

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Speaker 1: I think those kinds of situations make the work so

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Speaker 1: much richer to be. It's that collateral information. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: you don't necessarily come in and say, like, you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: I people please, or I need to be liked or

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Speaker 1: whatever these things are, but we're able to see it

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Speaker 1: and what we address it like of course, in that

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Speaker 1: moment or later on, it just kind of helps to

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Speaker 1: paint the picture because the goal is to make sure

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Speaker 1: that you are living life and as boldly as possible. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you may not say it, but it's like, okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: noticing that. Are you're complimenting the therapist a whole lot?

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Speaker 1: And of course there's a time in place where we

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Speaker 1: talk about that and you realize, like, hey, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the dynamics of this relationship to make sure that

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Speaker 1: you know is this how you're behaving in various other situations,

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Speaker 1: or is there something going on with us where you

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Speaker 1: feel the need to be liked about me, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: and so you're complimenting, oh my hair, my clothes, or

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Speaker 1: you're apologizing a whole lie. Is there something going on

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Speaker 1: where you're starting to feel like you're burdened? Or did

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Speaker 1: I write too much? And you're like, okay, well you

347
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Speaker 1: know her, No, pat was clear before I came in here.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it is, But yet the additional and formation is

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Speaker 1: very much so helpful, and it also makes you think

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Speaker 1: about the different kinds of therapeutic styles. I know that

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Speaker 1: I have therapist colleagues that if a common like that

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Speaker 1: were to come up, because they're more solution focus, they're

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Speaker 1: not doing any of that relational work. They're not interpersonal relational.

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Speaker 1: They're holding that they might talk to a colleague about that,

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Speaker 1: but they're not bringing it back into the space for

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Speaker 1: us to kind of process or explores. I think also

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Speaker 1: thinking about what kind of therapists you are, and or

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Speaker 1: what kind of therapists you might be seeking in terms

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Speaker 1: of that kind of relational work, because that is oftentimes

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Speaker 1: more theoretical and stylistic, and many therapists are not going

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Speaker 1: to do anything with that information right that they're more

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Speaker 1: kind of cognitive or other kinds of treatment don't really

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Speaker 1: look at how we are functioning here together and naming that.

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Speaker 1: I also find that to be something that I think

365
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Speaker 1: has more room or has more legs in which I

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Speaker 1: find it in a great way when black women therapists

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Speaker 1: are working with black women clients, that to kind of

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Speaker 1: name those things I think about my clients as I

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Speaker 1: think about my own therapy, those kinds of relational conversation

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Speaker 1: that I think I'm more likely to happen depending on

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Speaker 1: the certain identities of the therapist. So I think other

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Speaker 1: therapist modalities also just don't land for this kind of

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Speaker 1: processing or exploration. And I'm happy you said that, two

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Speaker 1: Dark Day, because I think one thing that we want

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Speaker 1: to be clear about is that everything is not indicative

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Speaker 1: of something deeper or something bigger. Me walk in and

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Speaker 1: it's like if I got new hair, got new hair today,

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Speaker 1: it's like okay, girl, you know again the dynamics of

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Speaker 1: the relationships like okay, I see your hair. That that

380
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Speaker 1: could just be how we're talking to each other and

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Speaker 1: it's like, you know, we've been working together for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and that is totally fine. It doesn't mean like,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I cannot say that because she's gonna

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Speaker 1: read more into that why did I compliment her? So

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Speaker 1: I think it's really clear that we say that everything

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be indicative of something deeper. Yeah, I

387
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Speaker 1: think what you're talking about is that need to be liked,

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Speaker 1: where that need to know that you're thinking about me

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Speaker 1: or that you care deeply about me, or if I'm

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Speaker 1: not just complimenting me every week, I might that might

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Speaker 1: be something that I'm just kind of paying attention to

392
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Speaker 1: that you you mentioned my hair a lot, or you

393
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Speaker 1: asked me about my clothes a lot, or you've asked

394
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Speaker 1: about what I do outside of therapy, Like those are

395
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 1: things like again, our clinical judgment really picking up on

396
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: what might be happening between us or with you to

397
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Speaker 1: be able to process. But one office or maybe even

398
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Speaker 1: two are probably wouldn't kind of late lean into any

399
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: more processing or exploration. Yeah, it's not a pattern. It's

400
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Speaker 1: not something that it's your regular mode or every single

401
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 1: time that I see you. Yeah. Yeah, So the other

402
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 1: thing I've seen come up a lot for people are

403
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Speaker 1: and maybe this is a little different now because I

404
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 1: think a lot of us are still operating virtually. But

405
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Speaker 1: I've also seen a lot of conversation around if you

406
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Speaker 1: are going to therapy during your lunch hour or like

407
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,920
Speaker 1: during dinner time, or just like if you're picking up coffee,

408
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Speaker 1: do you bring one for your therapist? What are the

409
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 1: rules are the ethical guidelines around like those kinds of things, right, Like,

410
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Speaker 1: I think we have guidelines around like gift giving and

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Speaker 1: receiving gifts from clients, and you know, and I think

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Speaker 1: we do have to be careful. I know we have

413
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Speaker 1: lots of conversations and grad schooled around particularly when you're

414
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Speaker 1: working with a diverse client tale, right, and how it

415
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Speaker 1: gives mean different things culturally. But how do you all

416
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Speaker 1: think about it and how do you all process that

417
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Speaker 1: with clients? If that comes up, I think it goes

418
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Speaker 1: back to what we're saying earlier, like this is a

419
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Speaker 1: different type of relationships. So if I were going over

420
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Speaker 1: to to see Dr Joy and I'm like, I'm just

421
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop off and grab me a cup of

422
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Speaker 1: coffee on my way as a friend in these social relationships, yeah,

423
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Speaker 1: I would probably say like, hey, can I bring you

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Speaker 1: something from here as well? And so I understand that gear,

425
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Speaker 1: but also to understand, this is not that that you

426
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Speaker 1: don't owe me any type of drink. You don't have

427
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Speaker 1: to give me a gift, and so yeah, we have

428
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: these ethical guidelines around being able to accept gifts and

429
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: those things. So I love talking about it. If it

430
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Speaker 1: comes up like, oh, I started to get you this

431
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Speaker 1: or I started to get you that, then what's tied

432
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 1: to that, Oh I wanted to get you a gift?

433
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: Because I understand that you typically get the people you

434
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: care about it, the people you appreciate gifts. And that's

435
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: fine to have that thought or the idea again knowing

436
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 1: that what is the therapeutic relationship? What are the dynamics

437
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 1: of this relationship where you don't owe me a coffee

438
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,480
Speaker 1: at tea? I don't like you more because you thought

439
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: to bring me a coffee or a tea. I'm not

440
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: expecting you if you walk in with coffee or tea

441
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: that you know where is the one for me? And

442
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 1: so being able to talk about I understand because you're

443
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 1: a kind person. That's just who you are. If you're

444
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: going to see anyone else, you probably would have brought one,

445
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: but it's okay, not in this context. That's not the expectation,

446
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,679
Speaker 1: that's not the type of relationship that we have. And

447
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: so not making it to be a bad thing because

448
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 1: you had that thought or across your mind. And also

449
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: some people don't ask if they cool it or would

450
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 1: sometimes people have not sometimes once because that sounds like

451
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: sometimes sounds like a lot. But when someone came in like, oh,

452
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 1: I brought you a blank, blank blank, and it's like,

453
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like that's so kind that I recall

454
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 1: putting it on the you know, on the desk behind me,

455
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 1: and then just sitting down and engaging in the conversation

456
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: as I normally would, not to be offensive, but not

457
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 1: to also like, oh my gosh, thank you so much,

458
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 1: I'm so happy you brought it. No, So being mindful

459
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,679
Speaker 1: of the conversation around if a gift does come to

460
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 1: be able to talk about, well, you didn't have to

461
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 1: do that and to carry on. Yeah again, thinks that

462
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 1: clients don't know and aren't necessarily supposed to know, right

463
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: the ethics around this, right that the rules have said,

464
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: that's one of thing between gifting and sex. No, no, no, no, no,

465
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 1: you cannot do and breaking componentiality, right, No, no nothing

466
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: else you know that those are you know those who

467
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: are all you know nothing things. And I think that

468
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,120
Speaker 1: that as also there have been more communities of color

469
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: that are seeking therapy, right, I think that there have

470
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: been more conversations around the ethics and kind of nuances

471
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: of when people share those kind of you know, cultural

472
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: norms with you because you are a person in their life.

473
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 1: And again they don't see it as this atypical social relationship.

474
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: You are a person and this is what they do

475
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: for people who help them, this is what they do,

476
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: run the holidays, for people they care about. So I

477
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: think really really being able to oppone in or at

478
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: least kind of process or explore the motivations around that

479
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,719
Speaker 1: and also your clinical judgment around how you know this person. Right,

480
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: So I have had it might have been two clients

481
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: who have been on the way and they brought me

482
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: something to drink, something like that, right, And I recognized

483
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: that as a kind social gesture, So not anything for

484
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: me to say anything a lot about like you were saying,

485
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: Like I said, thank you, I put it down. I

486
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: didn't engage in it, but I also didn't go into well,

487
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: tell me, like you bought me this drink? Is that

488
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: about something else? Like? Is that do you want to

489
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: be liked by me? Like? I didn't go into rite

490
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: all of those details around it, and it was also

491
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: one off. My hunch is that if that would have

492
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: happened the next week or the next session, I would

493
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: have then opened up like, hey, I noticed that this

494
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 1: is the second time that you've brought me something to drink,

495
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 1: really kind gesture. Just wanted to explore what that was about.

496
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for thinking like those kinds of things, right.

497
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: I think it also depends on what the thing is, right,

498
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: So I think there's a difference between somebody passing by

499
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: and kind of grabbing two drinks while they're on the

500
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: session versus somebody baking something for you or making something

501
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: for you, versus somebody buying something for you that might

502
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 1: have a certain budget. I think some of the ethics

503
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: is that if it's a gift that's under me five

504
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: or like ten dollars or something like that, that there's

505
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: some movement, there's some agility around that. But if you

506
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: buy me a pair of shoes, if you buy me

507
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 1: a sweater, if you write, if you give me something

508
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: that I have heard you say, are you know for

509
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: very important mother figures in your life. We're gonna have

510
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: a different conversation around this thing, because again, what I

511
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: know of you, what I've been able to kind of

512
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: glean of your culture and or our relationship, that lends

513
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: itself for different kinds of conversations and maybe some boundaries

514
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 1: around that, but not in a harsher punitive way. But

515
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,719
Speaker 1: oftentimes I think it's people just don't know. People do

516
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: not know if this is an atypical social relationship. And yes,

517
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: I would love the coffee. I'm probably tired, but that

518
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: has other implications in this kind of relationship, So I

519
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: would put it right there, and I'm going to thank

520
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 1: you for I'm gonna thank you for the gesture, right,

521
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: So I understand, and I understand if it seems like

522
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,920
Speaker 1: more of a social response because you happen to be

523
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, you're gonna be three minutes late. I'm gonna

524
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: be three minutes late because I really need this coffee

525
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: because I'm tired, and so I just thought to bring

526
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: you one. And then I also think that it allows

527
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 1: us to take a look too. It's like, am I

528
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: what I mean? You don't you did it the last

529
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: five times? Am I looking sleepy during your session? I

530
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: actually feel good? You know what? Right? Did I not

531
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: offer something? Never done that before? But is it happening

532
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: in your six o'clock session? Am I pulling something from

533
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,159
Speaker 1: you that is making you feel that you need to

534
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: gift me or you need to bring me coffee when

535
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: you come for your session, you know? Or is it

536
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: more of just this, like you said, the social thing,

537
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: because the social dynamics or your cultural dynamics you do

538
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 1: give people who have significantly helped you and also freeing

539
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: you from that, Like you get to have a relationship

540
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: where you get to just be and I know that

541
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: you are appreciative of the work that we do together.

542
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: And guess what, you owe me nothing as a result

543
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: of it. The gift in itself of you getting better

544
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: is the gift back. So yeah, more from our group

545
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: chat conversation after the break. Yeah, So I feel like

546
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: on the other end of the spectrum. And you know,

547
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about this a typical relationship, but

548
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: because there aren't, I don't think any other relationships in

549
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: our lives like the one that we typically have with

550
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: our therapists. Sometimes when strong feelings come up, we don't

551
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: have language for what's happening, and so I think then

552
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: that leads to people having crushes or feeling like they're

553
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: having a crush or in love with their therapists. So

554
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you watched this show

555
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: Grand Crew that came out earlier this year. Yeah, it

556
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 1: was on NBC. Pretty good show, but there was a

557
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: storyline around a guy in therapy who had a crush

558
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: on his woman therapists, right, And I do think that

559
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: this happens right again, because we sometimes have these strong

560
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: links in like in other relationships in our lives. What

561
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: this looks like is that there's a romantic attraction, right,

562
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: and so sometimes we also label that with our therapists.

563
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: So can y'all talk about, you know, whether you've had

564
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: those experiences or how can people make sense of any

565
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 1: strong like attraction kinds of feelings they're having for their therapists. Yeah,

566
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: I think you're speaking a little bit to like transference

567
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: in a way where you have these strong feelings, these

568
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: strong emotions that are coming up for you in the

569
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: therapeutic setting with your therapist. And I think Dr drew

570
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 1: your spot on and that it's such a relationship where

571
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: we know that vulnerability is like the bridge to connection.

572
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: So here's a space where guess what I'm doing. I

573
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: am feeling accepted, I'm feeling her, she's listening to me,

574
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: I'm sharing, feeling cared for all of the dynamics that

575
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: we normally experience in the context of an intimate relationship.

576
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: And it's just like, I love the way we talk,

577
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 1: I love the way we communicate, I love the way

578
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: that you listen. And it's like, so, what is it

579
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: bringing up for you? I would love to be in

580
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: a relationship with this person or I'm in love with

581
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: this person. So you're speaking this transference of energy and

582
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: emotions that normally would equal relationship outside of the therapy room,

583
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: and now it's in the therapy room. So you would

584
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: love that in a relationship, yes, but again this is

585
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: a different type of relationship. Yeah. Absolutely, These are really

586
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: intimate relationships, really really intimate relationships, and particularly for people

587
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: who do not have any access to that kind of

588
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: intimacy outside of this relationship, it makes it mean a lot,

589
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: like so much more right we and not only is

590
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: it around the intimacy that is created as it relates

591
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: to the vulnerability, right of what they're offering. But also

592
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: ideally what's happening in therapy is that we're offering you

593
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: a corrective experience, right, So you are now sharing things

594
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: with us that you more than likely have tried to

595
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: share with other people, and you have felt invalidated, harm heard, unseen, unheard,

596
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: And now there's this person who does this and does

597
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: this week after week after we after week, right, and

598
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: the relationship is building and growing, it gets more intimate

599
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: right as you continue the work, as you kind of

600
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, talk about different areas of your life. So

601
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: it also makes sense that not only this emotional attraction

602
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: right to the space and to the person who can

603
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: offer you these things that you may have been longing

604
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: for since you were a young child, like of course, right,

605
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: you gravitate towards this space. And I think what can

606
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: also happen is depending on who the client is, depending

607
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: on who the therapist is, age dynamics, possibly you know,

608
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: similar cultural groups, possibly similar backgrounds, Like all these different

609
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: things also add into the therapist. Maybe a person this

610
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: person would date, This would be a person that they

611
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: would find on an app, This would be a person

612
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: that they met them out they would want to per

613
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: what they know of me, because outside we're not the same,

614
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, right, But I think it also factors into

615
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: the limited way in which you know the therapy. Not

616
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: saying that therapist wouldn't be a great person to date,

617
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: but because you have this fairly limited relationship with them,

618
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 1: where the therapist is all these things for you in

619
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: with you, you expand that into a relationship. This is

620
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: all you know of them, and if this is how

621
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: they are with these parts of me, they'd be great

622
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: and all the other parts. And then also adding in

623
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: if there is a physical attraction, right, if the therapist

624
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: is someone's type, and or if the therapist represents any

625
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: identities that subconsciously this person longs for in some way. Right,

626
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 1: I haven't had this particular spience, but kind of seen

627
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: it where right, that transference looks like, Hey, I'm attracted

628
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: to you because you also look like, or act like,

629
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: or smell like someone who has rejected me in the past.

630
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: So we can also show up that way. But I've

631
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: had I've had two clients who have named being romantically attracted.

632
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: And depending on how you work, and again, if you're interpersonal,

633
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: you know, relational theory or not you can create room

634
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: right for that kind of conversation. And I had skills

635
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know I had because I had never experienced

636
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: this before, right, But being able to move this into

637
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: this process of vulnerability and validation right and not kind

638
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: of immediately saying like no boundaries, we can't do this,

639
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: we can't do this, we can't do this. I think

640
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: I actually hear therapists respond to that harsh way because

641
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: of what we learn about attraction and transference and counter transference,

642
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: but really being able to move that into a therapeutic

643
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: conversation that normalizes, Hey, it makes a lot of sense,

644
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: You're not wrong or bad, and normalizing that people have

645
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: fantasies about things that fantasies are thoughts, and that is

646
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: okay to have fantasies about these things. But then how

647
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: do we also navigate if that is something that is

648
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: getting in the way of your therapeutic care. What I've

649
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: also offered to you know, some of my clients is

650
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: that Hey, in a different life and in a different

651
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: kind of space or world, I could see us getting along.

652
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: We share so many same identities area age, like all this,

653
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: I could see those things happening. But because this is

654
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: not that kind of relationship. What does it mean to

655
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: grieve that kind of friendship that you might be fantasizing about? Right,

656
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: but I also validate, sure you pick it up on

657
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: the same thing things we're cool, but right, well you

658
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: are cool. So I think also offering that kind of

659
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: normalizing to them can also be really helpful for classes.

660
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: They're not making it up that we we have a

661
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: good relationship and that we have a good vibe going.

662
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: But I will also hold the boundary and help them

663
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: to hold the boundary, and that's my responsibility. M H.

664
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: I love that you said because one of the things

665
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to highlight dr A. We were talking about

666
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: this transference thing in sense of an intimate relationship, that

667
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: it does not have to only be like this intimate

668
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: sexual type relationship of transference of emotions where we may

669
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: see it where it's like, oh my gosh, like you

670
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: are so kind, so cool, so all those things we

671
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: talked about in the intimate capacity where oh my gosh,

672
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: like I want to be your friend, can we have coffee?

673
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: I love to travel with you. And it's for all

674
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: of those reasons that you mentioned before. Here is a

675
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: different type of relationship where we communicate well, there is

676
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: I'm helping you to understand yourself, You're helping me to

677
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: understand you. There is a corrective experience. There is no judgment,

678
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: and it's like wow, for a lot of us, we

679
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: don't have friendships like that where it's like, you know,

680
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: you're really opinionator, you're angry with me for days and whatever.

681
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: Those friendships maybe like outside of the therapeutic room. Here

682
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: it is like, here's a person that I see on

683
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: a weekly basis, and I can basically be seen and

684
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: be very open, like I tell you my life and

685
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: you are accepting, you are understanding, you still see me

686
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: all of those things, and it's natural that a person

687
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: would say, hey, this is a person that I would

688
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: be friends with. And it's like it's up to us,

689
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: as you mentioned rtr E to have some boundaries, like

690
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: we have to be able to know what the boundaries are,

691
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: to honor those boundaries and to also understand. I know

692
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: why those emotions are coming up for you. I know

693
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: why they are present. It makes sense when there is

694
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: a void, you know in other areas. I understand why

695
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: this feels sweeter to you. And like you said, yes,

696
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: we do connect. We do have a great relationship. What

697
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: you are feeling is real. I do understand you, we

698
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: do communicate well. All of those things are real, and

699
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: that's fine. But it does not mean because I have

700
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: bound you have boundaries. It does not mean that we

701
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: we don't have to terminate the relationships. We can have

702
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: an understanding of kind of what is happening here, there

703
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: is some awareness. How do we spend this and turn

704
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: this into it need be part of our treatment plan.

705
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: What both of you are talking about, I feel like

706
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: requires a great deal of self assessment. Again, depending on

707
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 1: how you operate theoretically and stylistically. You know, for some

708
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: people's a client coming in talking about feeling attracted to them,

709
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: I think would have all of their wires going up right,

710
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: like old we gotta terminate this, and so can y'all

711
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: talk about how do you develop that as a therapist,

712
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of things do you need to be

713
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: paying attention to for yourself and assessing so that you

714
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: are actually handling these kinds of conversations with care. It

715
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: could also, I think the first thing that's coming up

716
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: for me, I'm not sure if it even answers the

717
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: question that there is also can be countertransference to So

718
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 1: you're talking about self awareness, like where the client could

719
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: have these feelings and these strong emotions. It's like being

720
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: aware of do you also have these same feelings, in

721
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: these same emotions or is there something that you are

722
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 1: doing because Okay, this is my client, but I am

723
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: dressing a certain way in the sense of like I'm

724
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: more casual, but on Thursdays, like your girl turns it

725
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: up a little bit because of X, Y and Z.

726
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: You know, being aware of making sure that there's no

727
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: countertransference on your end because it does not work just

728
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: one way. So I think self awareness is just from

729
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: that part two really really key. Is there something going

730
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: on with you were that's impacting your ability to be

731
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: able to treat and to be able to see what's

732
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 1: going on in this relationship. Yeah, that that is it.

733
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: It's that self a therapist work, right, What is coming

734
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: up for me around this? Because even if a client

735
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: is to you know, share that they have these fantasies,

736
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: there's some relationship that I have with fantasies or some

737
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 1: relationship that I have with people who are like my

738
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 1: client and then having fantasies about me, And that's more

739
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: than likely that's getting activated in some way, and what

740
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: do I even understand about that before it even makes

741
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: it to how I can respond to them and still

742
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: care for them and care for the both of us

743
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: in this relationship. For me, I don't feel threatened by

744
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: fantasies that separate those from actions or intentions of those

745
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: kinds of things. But if that is something that has

746
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: shown up in your personal life in some way, you're

747
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: probably gonna have a different relationship to it. So thinking

748
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 1: about how that shows up in gendered ways, I imagine

749
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: if there is a client who you are working with

750
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: who either you're attracted to and or maybe have some

751
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: misgivings about because of how they show up in the room,

752
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: you're going to respond differently to them saying something that

753
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: you might hear is boundary violation because of stepping outside

754
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 1: of this therapeutic normal rule. But again, it's it's really

755
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: about how you are thinking about those things and what's

756
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: your awareness about where that lands and you, and then

757
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: you can fill in the gap between how it makes

758
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: it to the client. But I think a lot of

759
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: that is, if not the majority of that is our

760
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: work and our own boundaries around those kinds of things

761
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: because we're also human. And this is not to say

762
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: that therapies are all perfect and kind of holding these

763
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: kinds of boundaries, but when there is lower self awareness,

764
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: there's going to be more kind of diffuse or kind

765
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: of loose boundaries in those kinds of areas you're talking.

766
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: Self awareness is to do our own work, and oftentimes

767
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: that does come with, you know, having our own therapist

768
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: and so that you can or even our consult groups

769
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: are peer groups, so that we are continuously learning, being

770
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: able to talk about, being able to share, being able

771
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 1: to assess and evaluate. And I think when we are

772
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: self aware and doing our own work, then we can

773
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: respond appropriately to these situations. So if there is something

774
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: that you're feeling, then being able to process that with

775
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: your own therapist. If there's something that is transference from

776
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: the client to you, oh why did you respond that way?

777
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: You are really ready to shut that down and whatever?

778
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: Is there an inability on your part to hold boundaries

779
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: in place to be able to process that. Do you

780
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: have something too, So now that I know this person

781
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: likes me or they have these strong feelings, is that

782
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: going to make the work difficult for you to continue?

783
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: And so really being aware and having a place where

784
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: you and do your own work as well. Yeah, I mean,

785
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean, because you know, I've her therapists

786
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, working with clients who like remind

787
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: them of their mothers and they have a difficult relationship

788
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: with their mother, right, and so yeah, we are talking

789
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: about the romantic piece, but there are lots of different

790
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: ways counter transference can show up and really impacted the

791
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: work that you do with your clients. You're going real

792
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: hard for her because she reminds you of your mom,

793
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: and she accepts you, and she sees the beauty and

794
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: she's so proud of you and those things. It's like,

795
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 1: you know, what you're working on the weekends for sister

796
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: such and such because it's a mom replacement or it

797
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: kind of helps it, you know, target that area that

798
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: you feel most funerable. And absolutely I also wanted to

799
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: offer an example because what I've also seen counter transference

800
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: wise is that, again without the self awareness, are you

801
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: viewing and valuing that what someone is doing is because

802
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: they have a crush on you. That I've seen kind

803
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: of therapists talk about, well they're dressing this way when

804
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: they come to session with me and they're doing these things,

805
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: It's just like, are they what is coming for you

806
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: around that? Because you are noticing that that you are

807
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: seeing a certain part of a person's body and you

808
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: are assuming that that is for you. Remember having a conversation,

809
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: what makes you think that she ain't got somewhere to

810
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: go after you? Like? That doesn't mean that it's for you, right,

811
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: But there's that countertransference piece, and that was related to

812
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: this particular clinicials relationships with women who he had dated.

813
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 1: So just thinking about, Hey, what's my stuff that might

814
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: be coming up? And am I projecting that onto how

815
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: my clients are showing up? And again that's where I've

816
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: got to do some of my own work in terms

817
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: of these assumptions I'm making about why they're showing up

818
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: in a certain way. And if we haven't done our

819
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: own work, we think about those things as clinical judgment,

820
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: but they actually might be countertransference mm hmm. And can

821
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: a person show up as dressed well or whatever and

822
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: you're not gonna be hit on, Like I'm not thinking

823
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: like can I just come and just be who I

824
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 1: am without you feeling like okay, you know what? Because

825
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: I look like this, and when I wear this, then oh,

826
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: she must be trying to get with me. Or can

827
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: a person come well dressed in your office? And because

828
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: they want to be seen. I want to carry myself

829
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 1: a certain way. I honor and value your time and

830
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: your work, your expertise, and so I come a little

831
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: more dressed up to my sessions not because of anything else,

832
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 1: because I value me and I value you. Is that Okay?

833
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be Are you trying to impress me?

834
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: You know again, everything doesn't have to be a problem.

835
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 1: And I get it. We're looking at patterns and everything

836
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: else that comes along with it, not in isolation. We

837
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: make that assumption. But yeah, I remember reading something on

838
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: social media a long time ago with relationships and they

839
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: were saying that like kindness and generosity and these behaviors

840
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: are so uncommon these days that a person thinks that

841
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: you're being kind to them means that you like you

842
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: like them or you want to be a relationship with them. Yeah,

843
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, I'm just being kind, I'm just listening,

844
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm checking on you. I don't want to be with you.

845
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: And I think we get the opportunity to give a

846
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: person that experience to where you get to be that

847
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: you are enough. You get to talk with me, you

848
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: get to sit, we get to process, you get to

849
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: be accepted. You know, it's modeling the correct response, and

850
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 1: if you show up and give me all of that,

851
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: their abandonment does not have to result. You don't have

852
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: to be rejected because you showed who you truly are,

853
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: because you shared this part of you. So so we

854
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: talked a little bit about why they're are ethical guidelines

855
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: for us, and sometimes clients don't like those right because

856
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I want to have coffee with you

857
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: after we terminate in our relationship. What are some of

858
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: the other ethical guidelines that you maybe have had to

859
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: talk with clients about that you find some pushback around

860
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: or things that exist that clients don't quite understand, like

861
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: why they exist. Contact in between session? Yes, social media.

862
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: When you say contact in between session, what do you mean?

863
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: Texting emails, long emails, screenshots of conversations of a fight

864
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: that they had and they want to get my feedback

865
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: on Its usually around contact in between session. I've had

866
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: some things come up around social media, not a lot,

867
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: sometimes clients saying stuff to me on social media and

868
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 1: then not getting a response, and then like we'll process that.

869
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: Although they signed my social media clause, they know, hey,

870
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: I don't engage with you on social media for your protection,

871
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: you are charging your own confidentiality. But I have been

872
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: charged of our confidentiality in terms of our relationship. Those

873
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: have been the two main or recent ones. I know

874
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: there have been others, not with clients, but I have

875
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 1: when people in the community who I know socially want

876
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: to receive therapy, and the ethical guy like I can't

877
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: be your therapist because we have a social relationship or

878
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: my family. I can't see my cousin, I can't see

879
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: my cousin's cousin's son I can't see or even if

880
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: I haven't seen him since he was four years old,

881
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: he can still not be my client. So I actually

882
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 1: have more pushback from non clients about ethical boundaries than

883
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 1: my clients these days. I'll definitely see that a lot,

884
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: where there's this wanting to do a relationship because we

885
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: work on this board together or because we you know,

886
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: we set on this panel, we do this community of work.

887
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: I can't be your therapist. So I've definitely seen the

888
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: text messages or wanting to text or wanting to send

889
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: this long emails you would with like your girlfriend and

890
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: what do you think about this? And so this transmitting

891
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: of this all of this private information, doing therapy online,

892
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: or wanting to invite you to their baby shower or

893
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: to their or your birthday party because you're reporting to

894
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: me like you know, I care about you, I appreciate you,

895
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: wanting you to celebrate this milestone or coming to my graduation.

896
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: So these other boundaries are these other guidelines that are

897
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: in place. It's like, nope, can't quite do that, but

898
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,760
Speaker 1: I do you know understand if I've seen those the text,

899
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: the emails, the phone calls, the invitations to places, more

900
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: from our group check conversation after the break, So what

901
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: are the guidelines? Like why can't you see somebody who

902
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: you were like on a board with, right, Like we

903
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: meet once a quarter to talk about finances for some organization.

904
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: Why can't you be their therapists? You go, maybe go

905
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: back to the triple P. I mean, I know it

906
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: is about dual relationships, right, but for people who don't understand,

907
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: like if I don't really know you, you you don't really

908
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,359
Speaker 1: know me, Like why can't you be my therapist? Yeah,

909
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: it's the dual relationship and doesn't also speak about just

910
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: wanting to make sure that there is not a compromise

911
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: of care, like will our relationship impact my judgment and

912
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: my ability to care for you as if I don't

913
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: know you. Sometimes it's like, oh, my gosh, I'm doing

914
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 1: a whole lot of work, and I'm gonna do all

915
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: of these things because hey, this is my board member,

916
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: and so being able to work and to serve with you,

917
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: to take care of you, and to work with you

918
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: without having these other things that may be pulling on

919
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: your judgment or impacting the relationship. Oh, I feel that

920
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: I have to kind of show up and do this.

921
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: I have to answer this email because this is the

922
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: president of my HROA association and we're friends. So it's

923
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: giving us the opportunity to work together in a way

924
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: that will not compromise the care that you're getting an

925
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,439
Speaker 1: impact our judgment. I think it goes back to that. Yeah,

926
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: And I think that most general populations they don't recognize

927
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: the power of the subconscious, right, So I have a

928
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: lot of people saying like, no, we're fine, like there's

929
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: not gonna be any issues, Like I only see you once,

930
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: of this and you haven't even met them in this way,

931
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: but they don't understand how the subconscious really functions and

932
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: how that can really change our motivations and change our behaviors.

933
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: And that this is out of protection for clients and

934
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 1: kind of of our relationship because biases are there and

935
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: they are unconscious and subconscious, and those things come up

936
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: for both of us on either end, and that, like

937
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: you said, that there could be this example of right, Okay, well,

938
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: I feel the need to work in a different way

939
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: with you than I would with my other clients. And

940
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: that's where we're also kind of ethnically bound to kind

941
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 1: of offer you know, similar care across the board. But

942
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: because this might have other consequences for me and or

943
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: for you socially, right that if I make you upset

944
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: in some way therapeutically, now is my housing and jeopardy. Right.

945
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: It's those kinds of things that come up in these ways.

946
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: We can't have dual relationships where they're things involving money

947
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: or gifts, like are you going to start giving me

948
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: more gifts and kind of do the things because there's

949
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: something that you want for me as a therapist. It

950
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,279
Speaker 1: can get really, really murky and muddy, and because historically

951
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: their number of therapists who have dealt with this in

952
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: the past. They made this a rule for a reason.

953
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: They made this a kuideline for a reason, because when

954
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: these things were not guidelines in these ways, things got

955
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 1: really blurry. And also, and people I think also don't

956
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: recognize how vulnerable they are in the therapeutic relationship because

957
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 1: there is inherently a power dynamic, and they don't really

958
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: recognize how that vulnerability can really tie into what they

959
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: look for, what they need, how they might respond to

960
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 1: ways in which I am outside of session and all

961
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 1: these expectations that can be set up. You're in my therapist,

962
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: so you should call me back, or you should choose

963
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: my kid on the softball team, if you're also a

964
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: coach in the community, like, there are all these things

965
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: that could come up, and you're really really messy. And

966
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: we also want to keep the relationship boundary in terms

967
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: of the information that I have about you as the

968
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: information that you share, not all this collateral information that

969
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: you might not want me to know, whether it's a

970
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 1: clinical issue or not. But I want to keep it

971
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: to our relationship is about what you want me to

972
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: know what you offer me about yourself, not stuff that

973
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: I'm gathering from all over the place, because that can

974
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: also shift my objectivity. Yeah, and to think about as well.

975
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: We're talking about our ability to care and treat and

976
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: how that may be impacted. But I also think about

977
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: it from the client's perspective, to do you feel comfortable

978
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: sharing with me this level of information in detail, knowing

979
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 1: that I'm also that we sit on the church board together.

980
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: The level of honesty and vulnerability and openness that is

981
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: required to do the work in therapy, It's like, yeah,

982
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: that can be compromised as well. Oh you know what

983
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: if you were someone else and I knew that you

984
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 1: did not know me, or you don't know my person

985
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: who knows my person, who knows my person, It's like,

986
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: then I would be honest and open and share this

987
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: with you. But because we're so connected, because we are

988
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: part of the same small group, I'm not going to

989
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: share that with you. Like you said, DR, And now

990
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: I have all of this collateral information that as a

991
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: result of sitting on this board together or as a

992
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: all of being in the same small group, do you

993
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: feel comfortable sharing with me? Because I know you so

994
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 1: intimately in another environment, and so I think it protects

995
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,279
Speaker 1: the work that we do together on both sides. I know,

996
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: one of the first conversations I think a lot of

997
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: therapists have with their clients are around like if I

998
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: see you in public, right, you know? So that's one

999
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 1: of the very first things were addressing that initial kind

1000
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: of intake session, like if I see you, you know,

1001
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna speak to you because I never want

1002
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: to put you in the position of having identified like

1003
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 1: who I am, right, But if you speak, then I

1004
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 1: can speak back. And it sounds like some of that

1005
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: same stuff happens on social media. So you mentioned dr

1006
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: A a social media clause that you have. Can y'all

1007
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 1: talk about some of the ethical guidelines as it relates

1008
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: to interacting or not with clients on social media. Sure

1009
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: that because I have public social media account, because I'm

1010
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: providing a lot of psychological education, I do have a

1011
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: few clients who have found me, which is different than

1012
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: me saying follow me. I don't say follow me if

1013
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: you just happen to find me. It's a public page.

1014
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: So that's what's also part of the clause. But the

1015
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: claus states that I do not recommend that you make

1016
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 1: comments or send me messages. If you happen to do that,

1017
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: also know that I will not respond, and more than

1018
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: likely we can talk about those things in session when

1019
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: I notice these things. But it's also this piece of

1020
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: if and when you see me out right in the

1021
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: streets or the social media streets, if and when I

1022
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: do not respond to you, that's not because I don't

1023
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: like you, it's not because I don't care about you.

1024
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: But that is me holding this frame. And if it

1025
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,359
Speaker 1: is something really important, one don't post clinical stuff because

1026
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 1: that is you breaching your own confidentiality in those ways.

1027
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: But if it is something important, we can always talk

1028
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: about it in session. But that those aren't spaces that

1029
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,919
Speaker 1: are confidential or protected. I don't own Instagram, I don't

1030
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: own my d l ah who knows behind the scenes,

1031
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: who's seeing all of these things. So it's also to

1032
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: protect your confidentiality in those ways. That's exactly what it

1033
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: boils down to, and I think that's what the social

1034
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: media clause speaks to. It's that I am going to

1035
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: protect your confidentiality and these are the ways in which

1036
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: I intend to protect it. And then also you there's

1037
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: a level that of protection that you offer as well,

1038
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: and if you breach that, that is on you. But

1039
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: let's talk about some of the ways in which you

1040
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: may unintentionally reach your own confidentiality. Of course, I'm not

1041
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: saying follow me. I'm not looking for you, like what's

1042
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: your social media so I can follow you? But if

1043
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: you've done good work, and I don't want to shame

1044
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: you if you say I'm so thankful to my therapist,

1045
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: you know such and such and such and such, but hey,

1046
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about I'm probably not going to respond to that,

1047
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: and are you going to be okay if you've given

1048
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: this huge, big shout out and I don't respond to it.

1049
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: But also knowing too that someone may say, hey, you

1050
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: know what, maybe you've listened to a podcast, like you

1051
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: read something that I've written, and you've given me a

1052
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: shout out. That doesn't mean I'm your therapist. That just

1053
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: means that you may have seen me talk somewhere, and thankfully,

1054
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 1: because of that relationship or because of that interaction, you're

1055
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: shotting me out. So just to know that if you

1056
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: mentioned me, it does not mean like, oh, I'm in

1057
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: therapy with this person, but to know that I'm not

1058
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: going to mention you and being able to revisit that

1059
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: because we signed that social media contract at the very

1060
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: beginning we start working together, and you know, at that

1061
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: moment it becomes like okay, yeah, of course, oh no,

1062
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: you don't have to respond to me, or no, I

1063
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: knew you can't even imagine, like you know that you

1064
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: ever need that, or like, okay you first, you know,

1065
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: so you're not gonna speak to me when you see

1066
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: me out in public or whatever. It's like okay, good.

1067
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 1: But you know what when the rover hits the road,

1068
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: and when you have at you at me on social

1069
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: media because you signed it so long ago, and so

1070
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: being able to kind of remind them at some point

1071
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: like okay, I saw that you followed me online. You know,

1072
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: let's talk. If I see it, it's reminding you of

1073
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: what that may look like so that you don't have

1074
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: this feeling of rejection or whatever. Or you just gave

1075
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: these large kudos and it's like, oh and she has

1076
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: said nothing. I tagged her and added her and nothing

1077
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: at all. What I will say is I have had

1078
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,959
Speaker 1: it says, but I have a clients in the past

1079
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: who will come across something on social media or in

1080
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: the media in some way and whether they might send

1081
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: me an email or something like saying that something resonated

1082
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: with them. And when I do receive that, that is

1083
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: something that will bring into session like, hey, I know

1084
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: that you said that's something resonated with you. Let's talk

1085
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 1: about that thing. But I'm not engaging in a whole

1086
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: d M converse sation processing this post them or kind

1087
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,440
Speaker 1: of processing what came up for them or any of

1088
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: those things. But it does give me some additional data

1089
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: about something that came across and the week. But that's

1090
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: also that like in between contact and our clients know

1091
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: you sent me something cool, I will more than likely

1092
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: receive it and then we will talk about it next session.

1093
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: I don't even have to say to you anymore, like hey,

1094
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: let's talk about this. Then I'll see it in some way.

1095
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 1: And if I don't and I don't mention it, oftentimes

1096
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: clients will say like, hey, I sent you this thing,

1097
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what was it? And then we can

1098
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,240
Speaker 1: go from there. But I'm not doing a deep clinical

1099
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: dive unless we're gonna have another session during this and

1100
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: we're gonna have some type of pro rated situation, right

1101
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: barring crisis stuff that also relates to that kind of

1102
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 1: in between contact stuff. And I think even as we

1103
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: were talking about before, like, is that is that something

1104
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: about I want you to like me, I want you

1105
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: to acknowledge me. I want people to know that I

1106
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 1: have this relationship with you because you're popular on social media,

1107
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: Like what are some of the motivates that might come

1108
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 1: up for this kind of social media contact? And really

1109
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: just using your clinical judgment, yeah, and looking and knowing

1110
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: that one a one off, it's like, okay, it is

1111
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: what it is, but is it a pattern? So just

1112
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: because they saw Dr A on a panel and they

1113
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,799
Speaker 1: post like, hey, my therapist is gonna be on this panel,

1114
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: that should get a dynamic panel again, that's your breach

1115
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: of your own confidentiality. I'm not going to respond to that.

1116
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm not like, oh, thank you so much for posting that,

1117
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: none of that, Like you know, I'm not going to

1118
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 1: respond And are you going to be okay? And did

1119
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: you just do that? Of course because you know, hey,

1120
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: I saw you on there. I wanted my my followers

1121
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: to know that, hey, this should be really good or

1122
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,560
Speaker 1: are you seeking to be in my good graces? Or

1123
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: did you do it because hey, She's popular on social media,

1124
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: and I want people to know that's the one that

1125
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: I see, like, I have a good one. So when

1126
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: you see me, you see her, you know that is

1127
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: so you know, get it to the bottom of what is,

1128
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: what is what was meant about? You know how it is?

1129
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,760
Speaker 1: So one final thing that I want to chat about.

1130
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: As it released, a kind of like all these dynamics

1131
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: that people don't understand or you know, don't expect to

1132
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: kind of turn sour in some ways. I've also, especially

1133
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 1: running the therapist directory, had lots of questions around like

1134
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: why can't I find a review of these therapists. So

1135
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: if I'm looking for a dentist, if I'm looking for

1136
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: a new O, B, G, y N, I can read

1137
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: all about their client experiences and you cannot find that

1138
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: with therapists or what you can. But ethically reviews, we

1139
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: are not supposed to be soliciting reviews, so you won't

1140
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: necessarily find a bunch of sites with reviews of therapists.

1141
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about why therapist

1142
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: reviews are not considered a good thing? Yeah? And I

1143
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: think that that goes back to what we were just

1144
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: naming around the ethical protections around getting testimonials like well,

1145
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: I think the ethical codes were not allowed to solicit

1146
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: testimonials from people because what that could turn into, again

1147
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: in this more kind of subconscious sometimes conscious way, is

1148
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 1: that somebody will think that they are doing something nice

1149
00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: and kind for us, Right, I want my therapist lets

1150
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: only say all these positive things about them because they

1151
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,399
Speaker 1: asked me for something that they need, which can change

1152
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: the dynamic of the relationship when a client thinks that

1153
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: they are helping you with something. So we have these

1154
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 1: explicit guidelines around soliciting testimonials, which on websites and stuff

1155
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: like that that I find is different than because I

1156
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: think if we have a public profile and we have

1157
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: a Google site or office space, the people can write

1158
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: reviews of us, but we cannot respond to them because

1159
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,919
Speaker 1: again us respond they would be a breach of your confidentia.

1160
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: That would be us letting the whole entire Google know

1161
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,319
Speaker 1: that I know who you are and I know you

1162
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 1: in this way. So it puts a lot of therapist

1163
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 1: in a really difficult position, particularly when they might have

1164
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: negative reviews and they want to be able to say

1165
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: out loud that didn't happen, never met this person like

1166
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 1: they needed something that I don't even offer, like all

1167
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff that comes up. But you typically

1168
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,640
Speaker 1: will not see a therapist respond to a Google review. Again,

1169
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: a typical social relationship. Right. While this is a business,

1170
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,919
Speaker 1: it is a medical service, and that gets us all

1171
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: tripped up all the time that we cannot breach a

1172
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: client's confident y'all. That's one of the number one ethical concerns,

1173
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: right as a confidentiality breach. And to know that you

1174
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: we can work together and you don't owe me anything.

1175
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 1: This is not a tip for tat relationship. You get

1176
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: to receive and you don't owe anything back in response.

1177
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: And so yes, it all boils down to the protection

1178
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: of your confidentiality. And then this whole thing of being liked. Well,

1179
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,800
Speaker 1: I saw they wrote a review, she got five reviews

1180
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: from These are these people she's laughing with when she

1181
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: comes in the waiting room, you know, or if I

1182
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: wrote a review when she answered my emails outside of

1183
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: the session. Now, so, like you said, these subconscious things

1184
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: that we are not aware of. And you may think

1185
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,760
Speaker 1: that it's just an innocent this review or post or whatever,

1186
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: but it boils down to you get to have a

1187
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: relationship where you get to just be you don't have

1188
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: to work in that capacity in this relationship. Yeah, yeah,

1189
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,240
Speaker 1: And I think that that is the thing that also

1190
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 1: makes therapists so different from our colleagues and other professions. Right.

1191
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 1: You know, so if I go to a dentist who

1192
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: has great bedside manner, very knowledgeable, always starts on time,

1193
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: like that stuff, that's probably standard across the board, right,

1194
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: But I think because therapy is so individual me having

1195
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 1: a good experience with the therapist does not necessarily indicate

1196
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,919
Speaker 1: that you will, right, And so you know, when we're

1197
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: looking for reviews, of course, again because of who we

1198
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: are in our medical discrimination, I understand why people want it,

1199
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 1: but I think it's also in portant to acknowledge how

1200
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: therapy is very different than maybe other medical professions, and

1201
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: how even somebody having a good experience with the therapist

1202
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: does not mean that you will. And then what do

1203
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: you consider a good experience? You know, like just you know,

1204
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: am I saying that she gave me a good experience

1205
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: because I walked away with clarity or because I felt valid?

1206
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: I mean, what do we consider and especially because the

1207
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: treatment is so individualized, what is this good experience? And

1208
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: You're right, I don't want you to go see her

1209
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: based on what I said was good because that could

1210
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: just totally do something totally different for you. So yeah, Well,

1211
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: another incredible conversation, y'all, or always such a wealth of information.

1212
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: Thank you all for showing up again and chatting with us,

1213
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: and again remind us where we can find you if

1214
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: we want to contact you. Well. I am occasionally on

1215
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: Instagram and ask Dr Joy that's a s K d

1216
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: R j O Y, and I am on social media

1217
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: a lot more than Dr Joy is right at doctor

1218
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: Underscore Ayanna underscore A that's at d R Underscore A

1219
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: y A N n A underscore A perfect Thank you all,

1220
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. I'm so glad Dr Beckwith and

1221
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: Dr Abrams were able to join me again this week

1222
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: to learn more about them and their work and to

1223
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: check out the other conversations we've had here on the podcast.

1224
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

1225
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash session to sixty six, and

1226
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: be sure to text two of your girls right now

1227
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode. If you're

1228
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, be sure to

1229
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: check out our therapist director at Therapy for Black Girls

1230
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 1: dot com slash directory. And if you want to continue

1231
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: digging into this topic or just be in community with

1232
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: other sisters, come on over and join us in the

1233
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet design

1234
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: just for black women. You can join us at community

1235
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com. This episode was

1236
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 1: produced by Freda Lucas and Elise Ellis and editing was

1237
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much

1238
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to

1239
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take

1240
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: it care