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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, it's Joey, producer and sometimes co host for

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. This past Wednesday

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Speaker 1: was International Workers Day, or May Day as it's sometimes called,

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Speaker 1: and it's a time to celebrate and commemorate working people

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Speaker 1: and the labor movement around the globe. So today we're

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Speaker 1: revisiting our conversation with labor historian and punk rocker Kim Kelly,

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Speaker 1: author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History of American Labor,

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Speaker 1: about why from Starbucks to tech workers, organized laborer is

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Speaker 1: having a moment.

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Speaker 2: And I got to.

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Speaker 1: Say this episode has a special place in my heart

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Speaker 1: as a member of a union myself that is the

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Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast Union. And if you want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about the work that we do with the Iheartpod Union,

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Speaker 1: or you just want to show support for the people

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Speaker 1: that make your favorite podcasts happen, you can check us

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Speaker 1: out on Instagram or Twitter at Iheartpod Union. That'll be

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Speaker 1: linked in the show notes as well. All right, here's

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Speaker 1: the episode.

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Speaker 3: When someone will even acknowledge that you work for them,

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Speaker 3: like they're certainly not going to acknowledge your humanity if

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Speaker 3: they don't value enough to give you the proper legal paperwork.

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Speaker 3: They do not care how your day is going. That's

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Speaker 3: the problem.

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Speaker 4: There are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgett

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Speaker 2: and this is there are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: We're in what feels like a little bit of a

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Speaker 2: renaissance when it comes to organized labor and unions. More

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Speaker 2: and more workers, whether they're barista's at Starbucks or journalists,

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Speaker 2: are seeing the power of unions and organizing as a collective.

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Speaker 2: And even though we maybe used to have an idea

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Speaker 2: that union member as being a white guy working at

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Speaker 2: an auto factory or steel mill, the faith of who

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Speaker 2: we understand as somebody who needs a union is really

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Speaker 2: changing too. More and more media workers and office tech workers,

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Speaker 2: for instance, are trying to unionize. This shift is something

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Speaker 2: that labor reporter Kim Kelly is really happy to see.

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Speaker 3: I'm Kim Kelly, and I'm a independent labor reporter and

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Speaker 3: the author of Fight Like Hell, The Untold History of

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Speaker 3: American Labor.

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Speaker 2: So how did you become someone who cared about labor

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Speaker 2: and telling the story of all of these different fights?

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Speaker 3: So I guess the short answer is I got involved

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Speaker 3: in organizing my workplace. That's kind of a direct pipeline

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Speaker 3: right there, right to caring about the labor movement joining it.

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Speaker 3: But some of the longer answers like, well, I'm from

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Speaker 3: a union family, from a very like rural working class,

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Speaker 3: kind of isolated place, and everyone who raised me was

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Speaker 3: a construction worker, a steel worker, teacher, like everyone was

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Speaker 3: in the union. It wasn't something that really really talked

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Speaker 3: about that much, or really it was, you know, really discussed.

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Speaker 3: It was just part of the job, part of life, like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that is in a union. That's why we have health insurance.

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Speaker 3: That's why he has to go to those meetings sometimes,

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Speaker 3: that's why he's on strike and we can't go to Walmart,

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Speaker 3: you know, things like that. And it wasn't really until

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Speaker 3: I was at Vice, whereas the heavy metal editor and

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Speaker 3: some colleagues pulled me aside or were like, hey, we

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Speaker 3: want to form a union, what do you think. I'm like,

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Speaker 3: hell yeah, and let me get involved in that, that

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Speaker 3: I realized that there were even it was even an

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Speaker 3: option like that, there were unions for people like me,

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Speaker 3: someone who at that point was writing about death metal

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Speaker 3: on the internet. But it turns out there was and.

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Speaker 2: We joined it, Kim got more and more involved in

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Speaker 2: unions to organize around her own union at the media company.

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Speaker 3: Vice, and we organized like almost I think by the

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Speaker 3: time I got laid off in twenty nineteen, we'd organized

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Speaker 3: like five or six hundred people in the building, and

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Speaker 3: we'd bark in two different contracts, like we'd gotten raised,

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Speaker 3: we'd improved the workplace, we'd done a ton, we'd accomplished

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Speaker 3: a lot. And I was deeply involved the whole time

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Speaker 3: because being in a union had always kind of appealed

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Speaker 3: to me as an idea, as something that fit into

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Speaker 3: my political like my political views and my worldview, and

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Speaker 3: just kind of felt nice to join that family tradition.

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Speaker 3: But I didn't really start writing about it with any

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Speaker 3: sort of regularity or depth until we unionized, and I

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Speaker 3: was already freelancing a lot working advice because they didn't

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Speaker 3: pay as shit, until we organized another big endorsement for

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Speaker 3: unions in a workplace. Yeah, it was freelancing a ton,

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Speaker 3: And really it just kind of happened by not by accident,

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Speaker 3: but unexpectedly because I was writing a little bit of

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Speaker 3: just freelance stuff about the prison industrial complex routine book,

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Speaker 3: and I pitched them on a profile of Mother Jones,

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Speaker 3: the labor leader. I thought, Okay, your audience is predominantly

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Speaker 3: like younger women, Like, here's a cool I kind we

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Speaker 3: can talk about. And my editor said, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 3: cool idea, but I don't think our audience necessarily knows

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Speaker 3: what a union is, so why don't you write about

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Speaker 3: that first? I was like okay, And I wrote a

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Speaker 3: little explainer because at that point I'd kind of learned

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Speaker 3: more about the movement, about the history, from talking the

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Speaker 3: organizers who work with, from reading books on my own,

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Speaker 3: from just getting all fired off about union stuff as

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Speaker 3: like a baby organizer. And I wrote that article and

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Speaker 3: it kind of was like mini viral. People paying attention

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Speaker 3: because in twenty seventeen, people weren't necessarily used to looking

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Speaker 3: to teen Vogue for their like anti capitalist analysis. Yet

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Speaker 3: they're like what is this? Essentially like it that helped

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Speaker 3: me out as a freelancer, where I was like, okay,

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Speaker 3: that went, well, what if you let me do a

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Speaker 3: whole column and they're like, yeah, okay, we'll try it.

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Speaker 3: And I was like four years ago and really just

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Speaker 3: having that experience organizing and kind of learning on the

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Speaker 3: fly and being a big nerd and loving history books

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Speaker 3: kind of made me feel like I was allowed to

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Speaker 3: write about labor, like I had a leg to stand on.

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Speaker 3: And once I kind of gave myself that permission, I

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Speaker 3: really just dove in and start writing more and writing more,

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Speaker 3: talking more. People just kind of fell in love with

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Speaker 3: the idea, right because I spent my whole life up

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Speaker 3: till then writing about heavy metal, which is still a

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Speaker 3: great love and still a huge part of my life.

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Speaker 3: But I was kind of looking for something new, and

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Speaker 3: the union happened to be there at exactly the right time.

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Speaker 3: And once I realized I was going to more union

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Speaker 3: meetings than heavy metal shows, I thought, Okay, maybe it's

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Speaker 3: time to actually try and do this. And here we are.

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Speaker 4: Wow. What what a trajectory. Yeah, I mean it's it's it. Really.

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Speaker 2: I see a lot of through lines in your work,

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Speaker 2: and I I remember the vice unionization fight, and I

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Speaker 2: I Hart Radio, where my podcast is hosted recently, which

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Speaker 2: is a big deal. I guess it's a good question,

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Speaker 2: what do you think of this idea that I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I often I think that everybody could.

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Speaker 4: Benefit from a union.

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Speaker 2: I think that the benefits are there for unions are

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Speaker 2: for everybody, But I often hear this kind of pushback

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Speaker 2: that like, oh, what does an office media worker need

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Speaker 2: a union for? What do you say to things like that?

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Speaker 3: Oh, it makes it so mad because it's just and

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Speaker 3: it's always like stupid, like rich white guys on Twitter

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Speaker 3: that just feel the need to have opinions about Oh, well, Brad,

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Speaker 3: students don't need a union. Video game workers on need

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Speaker 3: a union. Journalists don't need a union. You're not working

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Speaker 3: in a coal mine or in a factory, Okay? Do

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Speaker 3: you have a boss? You rely on someone else's decisions

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Speaker 3: to pay your bills? Do you have to go to

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Speaker 3: an office, do you have coworkers? Are you getting mistreated

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Speaker 3: or you getting disrespected? Like are you going to a job?

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Speaker 3: Do you work for someone? Then you need a union.

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Speaker 3: It is ridiculous to act as though different categories of worker,

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Speaker 3: whether were you're doing like the white collar blue collar

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Speaker 3: sort of dichotomy or whatever other artificial division that somebody

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Speaker 3: with an interest in preserving capital likes to lean on,

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Speaker 3: like it's It's never been the case that only one

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Speaker 3: type of worker, one demographic of worker, is allowed to

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Speaker 3: have a union or is encouraged to have a union

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Speaker 3: or is benefited from having a union, Like every type

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Speaker 3: of worker can benefit from having a union, and that's

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Speaker 3: not even necessarily. You don't have to go through the

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Speaker 3: specific process of like filing for an election with n RB,

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Speaker 3: doing all of the kind of bureaucratic red tape bs

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Speaker 3: that a lot of workers are kind of forced to

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Speaker 3: deal with. Now to form a union, you can just

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Speaker 3: get to get other with your coworkers and try and

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Speaker 3: make some shit happen. Like there's no one way to

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Speaker 3: be a union member. There's no one way to be

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Speaker 3: a union and they're all valid and important, and honestly,

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Speaker 3: building collective power with your coworkers is the most effective

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Speaker 3: and empowering thing that you can do, because one worker

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Speaker 3: on their own can only do so much, but a

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Speaker 3: bunch of us, whether it's five or fifty or five hundred,

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Speaker 3: that's how you move mountains. Whether you work in an

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Speaker 3: office where you work in a coal miner, you work

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Speaker 3: in Amazon, or you're a gig worker, Like, someone is

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Speaker 3: trying to screw you over, and the only way you

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Speaker 3: can stop that is by getting together with a bunch

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Speaker 3: of other people who are feeling screwed over doing something

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 4: I love how you put that.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing that I really love about talking

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Speaker 2: about labor and the you know, collective organizing, and it's

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Speaker 2: something I really see as a value that it's about

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Speaker 2: people banning together, oftentimes against massive, powerful companies like Amazon

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Speaker 2: that have like teams of lawyers and pr and all abys.

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Speaker 2: But even with all that institutional power, they're not more

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Speaker 2: powerful than the collective. They're not more powerful than people

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Speaker 2: coming together. Is that something that you see in these

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Speaker 2: union stories as well?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Jeff Bezos is the new g ghoul.

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Speaker 3: Like we talked about that, we're in the new Gilded Age.

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Speaker 3: The railroad barons, like they controlled the rails, they controlled

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Speaker 3: all the capital, but the workers built those rails, and

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Speaker 3: the workers shut them down a whole bunch. Then struck

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Speaker 3: fear into the hearts of the capitalist class, like there's

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Speaker 3: always more of us than there are of them. And

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Speaker 3: I think that's something that workers sometimes forget because we

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Speaker 3: are so disenfranchised and isolated and beaten down. But the

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Speaker 3: people on top never forget that, And that's why they

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Speaker 3: get so frightened and anxious when they see workers organizing,

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Speaker 3: because they know that they're outnumbered, and that if a

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Speaker 3: whole bunch of people want to make them do something,

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Speaker 3: you know we've done it before and we'll do it again.

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Speaker 3: Like there's the history of labor in this country is

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Speaker 3: very complicated. There's a lot of wins, there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of losses. There's a lot of struggle and bloodshed and

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Speaker 3: beautiful things and terrible things. But every step foward that

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Speaker 3: we've made as a country has come from workers, has

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Speaker 3: come from regular working people down in their tools and

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Speaker 3: saying all right, I've had enough of this shit. Let's

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Speaker 3: do something. And that is something that has not gone away,

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Speaker 3: and especially now, I think we're something we're going to

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Speaker 3: keep seeing more of because it's easier for people to

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Speaker 3: be connected to one another, it's easier for people to

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Speaker 3: see other folks taking control. Whether you're a Starbucks customer,

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Speaker 3: you buy stuff from Amazon, you go to REI, you

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Speaker 3: have a friend who works as a grad student, Like,

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Speaker 3: someone in your life is probably part of some kind

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Speaker 3: of organizing effort, and if they're not, you can help

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Speaker 3: them start, or you can start your own. Like the

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Speaker 3: possibilities are endless. Let's take a click right.

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Speaker 4: Ederer back.

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Speaker 3: This right here, this is going to be the catalyst

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Speaker 3: for the revolution. That's exactly what this is.

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Speaker 4: I just went to stay.

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Speaker 2: Back in April, Amazon warehouse workers on Staten Island's JFK eight,

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Speaker 2: the Amazon warehouse with the most employees in the state

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Speaker 2: of New York, won a historic bid to form a

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Speaker 2: labor union. It's the very first Amazon facility in the

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Speaker 2: United States to have a successful union election, which is huge.

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Speaker 2: So we know that workers at JFK eight, the Amazon

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Speaker 2: warehouse in Staten Island, they won a union election and

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Speaker 2: they kind of went against some of the conventional wisdom,

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Speaker 2: you know, they started their own independent organization instead of

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Speaker 2: trying to sort of join and established national union. And

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Speaker 2: I've read some of your writing on this and it

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Speaker 2: sounds like to you it really just comes down to

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Speaker 2: the workers. Can you tell us more about kind of

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Speaker 2: like what you mean by this.

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Speaker 3: So here's the thing, Like what Amazon labor union organizers

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Speaker 3: did was incredible and inspiring and so important, and it's

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Speaker 3: also not anything new, right, the idea of building a

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Speaker 3: union from the ground up, of building real human bonds

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Speaker 3: and connections and solidarity, forming a community to fight instead

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Speaker 3: of you know, following a prescriptive playbook doing what you're

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Speaker 3: supposed to do, because that's how it's done, that's how

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Speaker 3: it sometimes works, like ione has to do anything like

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Speaker 3: this is this is the thing. I mean, that's one

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Speaker 3: of the reasons they're so successful. They kind of threw

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Speaker 3: out that playbook and drew on whether or not it

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Speaker 3: was intentional. They drew on these kind of historical examples

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Speaker 3: of workers in their position doing the exact same thing.

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Speaker 3: Because the workers that organized to add JFKA predominantly like

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Speaker 3: younger folks, queer and transpost black and brown workers, immigrant workers,

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Speaker 3: multi lingual, multi generational, the best, multiracial, multi gender, multi

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Speaker 3: everything kind of coalition. And that is how workers have

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Speaker 3: won throughout history. And that is not something that you

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Speaker 3: maybe find in every mainstream labor history book, but that

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Speaker 3: is just true. That's just how it is. I Mean,

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Speaker 3: one of the parallels that I, as a labor nerd

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Speaker 3: I like to draw between JFKA and history is what

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Speaker 3: Dorothy Lee Bolden was able to do in the sixties

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Speaker 3: in Atlanta, and she was a domestic worker from the

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Speaker 3: age of nine, Like really the majority of black women

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Speaker 3: and women in that city in that time that had

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Speaker 3: a job, they worked in domestic service. And she realized like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: we're not being paid enough, our work isn't being treated

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Speaker 3: properly as labor. We're being true like garbage, and you

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Speaker 3: know what, like there's a lot of us. Maybe we

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Speaker 3: can do something about this. She was actually lived a

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Speaker 3: few doors down from doctor Martin Luther King Junior, and

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Speaker 3: she was commisering with him one day and he told her, like, Dorothy,

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Speaker 3: you know, you can just do something yourself, like if

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Speaker 3: you want to change things, if you want to organize things,

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Speaker 3: like just do it. And she did. She organized it

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Speaker 3: then that from Domestic Workers Union of America, which wasn't

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Speaker 3: a recognized standard labor union. It wasn't operate within that framework.

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Speaker 3: It was an independent organization and at its peak the

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Speaker 3: membership roles hit I think ten thousand people, so all

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Speaker 3: black women domestic workers in Atlanta, and they built power,

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Speaker 3: and they built political power, they educated what another, they

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Speaker 3: shared resources. In order to join, all you had to

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Speaker 3: show up with was a dollar and a voter registration card.

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Speaker 3: Showing the intersection between different movements for justice. And it's

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Speaker 3: such a cool example because she did it her way

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Speaker 3: and she made a huge difference. You can see there's

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Speaker 3: a direct line from George Lee Bolden's organization in the

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Speaker 3: sixties to the current National Domestic Workers Alliance, which I

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Speaker 3: mean in Philly. A couple of years ago they managed

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Speaker 3: to pass an incredibly impactful bill that helped get healthcare

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Speaker 3: for domestic workers in my city. Like, everything builds on

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Speaker 3: the work that someone did before, whether it's in nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty or eighteen sixty, and I'm just excited to see

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Speaker 3: what's going to happen in fifty years when someone younger

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Speaker 3: than me writes a book and interviews Chris Smalls and

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Speaker 3: asks what inspired him? Right, Because we're all part of

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Speaker 3: than We're all linked in a very long chain, and

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Speaker 3: you know, one link can do something cool, but that

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Speaker 3: whole long chain, that's how we get close to where

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Speaker 3: we need to be.

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Speaker 4: I have chills. What a description I used to.

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Speaker 3: Talk to a lot of union meetings.

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Speaker 2: I love us.

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Speaker 3: Is historical?

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Speaker 4: Is Amazon versus the people and the.

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Speaker 3: People have spoken.

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Speaker 2: That's Chris Small's the president and founder of the Amazon

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Speaker 2: Labor Union. He started working in Amazon warehouses in twenty

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Speaker 2: fifteen during COVID, when everybody myself included, was ordering a

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Speaker 2: ton of stuff on Amazon. Chris started to speak out

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Speaker 2: about how warehouses were putting workers at risk by failing

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Speaker 2: to meet basic COVID mitigation protocols. So Chris organized a

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Speaker 2: walk out in protest. He was fired that same day for,

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Speaker 2: according to Amazon, failing to meet social distancing protocols. So basically,

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Speaker 2: Amazon was claiming that Chris was the one who was

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Speaker 2: failing to keep Amazon worker safe, not them, which is

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Speaker 2: a little sketchy. So Chris organized. He started the Congress

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Speaker 2: of Essential Workers, which later backed the formation of the

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Speaker 2: Amazon Labor Union. Amazon suits, like former Obama administration spokesperson

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Speaker 2: turned Amazon pr and policy chief Jay Carney and David Zablotski,

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Speaker 2: personally smeared Chris in leaked notes. They called him not

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Speaker 2: smart and not articulate. In fact, they thought Chris was

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Speaker 2: so not smart that their plan, according to these reports,

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Speaker 2: was to make Chris the face of the movement because

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Speaker 2: certainly that would tank it. Only it backfired. Chris, that

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Speaker 2: turns out, was an incredibly effective organizer and spokesperson and

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Speaker 2: would go on to usher in the very first unionized

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Speaker 2: Amazon warehouse in history. I mean, so you've just hit

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Speaker 2: on a couple of things that I am fascinated by.

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Speaker 2: One I do think we have this issue not just

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Speaker 2: in labor organizing, but in organizing in general, where it's

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Speaker 2: so tempting to have there be one face, like this

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Speaker 2: is the person who started this whole thing, when the

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Speaker 2: reality is it's often so many different stories and voices

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Speaker 2: coming together, and I get the inclination to make it

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Speaker 2: about one central figure that like that is such a

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Speaker 2: such a powerful motivating thing just in our culture, but

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Speaker 2: that sometimes it can obscure what you were just talking about,

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Speaker 2: that it's a lineage, it's about a lot of people

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Speaker 2: coming together and inspiring each other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw it. It was interesting because Twitter is

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Speaker 3: always going to Twitter, but I saw there was some

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Speaker 3: criticism because people were excited about Chris Mal's who is

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Speaker 3: the leader of the Amazon labor union, who was kind

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Speaker 3: of the spark that started that whole movement when he

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Speaker 3: was fired in twenty nineteen for protesting about COVID safety.

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Speaker 3: Like you gotta hand it to the guy, even like

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Speaker 3: like sometimes it is okay to lie andize someone when

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Speaker 3: they have done something incredible, And I think it is

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Speaker 3: important for us to have those working class heroes. You know,

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Speaker 3: of course, like no one person does everything. People are flawed,

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Speaker 3: people are complicated whishdn't you know? Hero worship is not

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Speaker 3: something that I would recommend, but acknowledging and appreciating someone's

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Speaker 3: skill and someone's importance to a movement that doesn't take

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Speaker 3: away from the collective effort. That's just kind of giving

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Speaker 3: somebody their flowers and they deserve them. And I think

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Speaker 3: something that you know, President Small's has done in a

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Speaker 3: really wonderful way is making clear like the Amazon Labor

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Speaker 3: Union organizing Committee, like all of us did this. All

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Speaker 3: of us are in this together, like a lot of

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Speaker 3: the other organizers are public too, Derk Palmer, Angelic and

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Speaker 3: Justine Matina, like it was clearly a very collective effort.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I think it's okay to get excited

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Speaker 3: about having one person, you know, getting a little bit

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Speaker 3: more attention, because I mean, we need more heroes. We

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Speaker 3: need more heroes that look like us and sound like us.

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Speaker 3: And especially the fact that like a young handsome black

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Speaker 3: man with gold teeth and tattoos is like the face

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Speaker 3: of the labor movement in America right now. That is phenomenal,

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Speaker 3: Like that is going to keep the movement moving, That

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Speaker 3: is going to bring more people in. We do not

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Speaker 3: need more white guys in suits, like, we got some

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Speaker 3: good ones, shout out to them, But like, the white

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Speaker 3: guys in suits are also a lot of the time

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Speaker 3: the people that have their boots on our neck. I

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Speaker 3: think it is very important to recognize who the working

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Speaker 3: class is and what they look like, what we look like,

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Speaker 3: and sound like a talk like to build those connections,

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Speaker 3: to bring more people in and show that there's so

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Speaker 3: much more room in the movement for every other cut

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Speaker 3: type of person. And you know, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: talk too much shit on the white guys and suits.

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Speaker 3: Some of them are great, but some of them are

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Speaker 3: and they've had plenty of a time to bask in

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Speaker 3: their attention over the years. I think it is perfectly

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Speaker 3: fine to give someone else a shot.

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Speaker 2: Absolute Absolutely, every single time I see a photo or

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Speaker 2: a video of Chris Small's and it's fitted in his

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Speaker 2: do rag talking to an elected official, I'm like, yes.

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Speaker 4: This is like, it just feels good to see like.

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Speaker 2: And honestly, if I'm being honest, him being like his

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Speaker 2: trajectory is what got me fired up about the Amazon fight.

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Speaker 2: I will never forget the way that Amazon suits use

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Speaker 2: this like very clearly racially coded language to refer to

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Speaker 2: him and discredit him. He's inarticulate, he's not smart, he's

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Speaker 2: not a deep thinker. And I feel like every black

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Speaker 2: and brown person, every immigrant, or anybody connected this to

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Speaker 2: one of those communities knew exactly what these Amazon suits

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Speaker 2: were trying to do. And what's so funny is that,

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Speaker 2: a they were really downplaying the multi racial workers that

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Speaker 2: that keep their company running, that made that like they

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Speaker 2: would be nothing without. And I think that they really

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Speaker 2: kind of shot themselves in the foot because in the end,

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Speaker 2: they made Chris like this lionized face of their movement

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Speaker 2: because like it kind of in spite of their trying

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Speaker 2: to discredit him, And boy, they couldn't have picked a

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Speaker 2: more effective spokes person, right, like the wrong.

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Speaker 3: One for that if they were trying to keep like

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Speaker 3: they even said in some of their little leaked internal memos,

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Speaker 3: like we're gonna make him the face of this. And

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Speaker 3: I remember when they want he tweeted like, you know, thanks,

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Speaker 3: like a call that was the worst mistake ever made.

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Speaker 3: It's like it just shows this massive disconnect between the

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Speaker 3: people in the c suite doing whatever the fuck is

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Speaker 3: they do all day and the people actually working and

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Speaker 3: living these communities and trying to build power, trying to survive,

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Speaker 3: Like why wouldn't people respond to a character like Chris,

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Speaker 3: Like why wouldn't people want to talk to other folks

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Speaker 3: in the organizing committee that speak their language and live

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Speaker 3: in their neighborhoods and take the bus with them? Like

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Speaker 3: why would someone listen to some rich guy in a

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Speaker 3: suit and when they could talk to someone that they're

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Speaker 3: used to seeing, like out in the neighborhood, who like

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Speaker 3: someone whose cousin you know? Like why It's it's like

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00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 3: a century apart. But thinking about the way that the

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Speaker 3: workers in the organizing committee Amazon were able to build

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Speaker 3: power and bridge these kind of artificial divisions, it reminds

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Speaker 3: you of this example. They're with me again. I'm a giant.

422
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 3: I just wrote a whole book about it. But in

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Speaker 3: nineteen forty six, the Great Sugar Strike in Hawaii. At

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Speaker 3: that time and probably still but especially at that time,

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Speaker 3: the sugar game plantations in the islands were owned entirely

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Speaker 3: by white guys who lived in the mainland, and they

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Speaker 3: were worked by native Hawaiians as well as Chinese, Korean,

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Speaker 3: Puerto Rican, Filipino, Japanese immigrants. But prenominantly Asian workforce from

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Speaker 3: all sorts of different places, lots of different languages, and

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Speaker 3: the bosses had a very explicit policy of treating different

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Speaker 3: workers differently, unequally, so that like some workers made more

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Speaker 3: than others. They kept all of the workers in different

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Speaker 3: segregated camps so that Chinese workers and Filipino workers, Korean

434
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 3: workers wouldn't really see one another, wouldn't really talk to

435
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 3: one another. And they did that because they wanted to

436
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 3: make sure the workers weren't organized. They wanted to be

437
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 3: able to use different groups of workers against one another,

438
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: and like earlier strikes, Filipino workers were brought in too

439
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 3: active strike breakers. When Japanese field workers went on strike,

440
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 3: there were a lot of instances of that kind of

441
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 3: thing happening. And when it came time to strike in

442
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 3: nineteen forty six, the ILWU in National Longshore and Warehouse

443
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: Workers Union were really cool radical union. Their history is read.

444
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 3: There's time to strike, and they realized, Okay, we can't

445
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 3: let them break us apart like that again. We need

446
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: to pull people together, and how do we do that.

447
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: They brought in translators and made sure everybody in every

448
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: meeting felt heard and understood what's happening. They had different

449
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 3: groups of workers cooked for one another and share recipes

450
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 3: and build community that way. Same thing they did in

451
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: the parking lot at Staten Island. They brought people together

452
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 3: on a human level and showed them, you know, you're

453
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 3: all being exploited, you're all being treated like garbage, you're

454
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 3: all being You're all in this together, whether or not

455
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 3: you chose to be, so why not embrace it and

456
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 3: try to become more powerful together? And it worked and

457
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 3: they won. They won like the first big raised in

458
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 3: like twenty years. And that's exactly what I thought about

459
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 3: when I heard about, you know, the barbecues and the

460
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 3: jolof rice and all of the just the very personal,

461
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 3: intimate kind of organizing and connecting those happening in the

462
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 3: parking lot and then the breakroom in Amazon and JFKA. Like,

463
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 3: when you connect with people as people and listen to

464
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 3: them and hear them, that's when magic happens. Like it

465
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 3: sounds so basic, but I feel like people in charge

466
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 3: don't get that because they don't see us as people.

467
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's and I think it really goes back to

468
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: what you were saying, that people coming together, people uniting

469
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 2: in the power of community and shared vision and a

470
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: collective that's such a powerful force. And it's not surprising

471
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 2: to me that the powers that be, whether it's you know,

472
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: sugarcane owners or Amazon, it's like, oh, we got to

473
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: keep these people divided, We got to keep them. We

474
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: have to really inflame these divisions, because when they come together,

475
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: there's more of them than there are of us, and

476
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: they are very powerful.

477
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: And so just figuring out ways to to.

478
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: Really rely on those community bonds, I think is so

479
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 2: important and valuable, and.

480
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 3: Like unions have screwed that up over the years too.

481
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 3: The labor movement is not the track record is not great,

482
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to like I mean even now

483
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 3: right so earlier I always think about this example that

484
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: makes me so mad, the American Federation of Labor, which

485
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 3: was like an earlier organization that later got folded into

486
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 3: They'll say, oh, that's the whole thing, But I mean, like

487
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: the eighteen hundreds, eighteen eighties, when the Chinese Exclusion Act

488
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 3: was passed, the AFL were big supporters, They're all about it,

489
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 3: and that was obviously incredibly xenophobrig racist legislation that kept

490
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 3: Chinese workers and other Asian workers out of the country

491
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 3: for decades, and at that point, those labor leaders embraced

492
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 3: that because they didn't want people to come in and

493
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: take their members' jobs. And now that is a familiar

494
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 3: refrain that we've seen throughout the centuries. Like at one

495
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: point it was women, then it was black workers, Chinese

496
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: and other Asian workers. It's Mexican, South American, Central American

497
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 3: workers who are being painted with that brush. Like there's

498
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: always this reactionary impulse in some corners to say that, oh,

499
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: these other people are coming in and taking everything we built. Wow,

500
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 3: fuck do you think you built in the first place?

501
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: By organizing people and trying to help workers, like that

502
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: kind of mentality is harmed the movement and harms so

503
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: many workers over the century, Like just the thought of

504
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 3: seeing a new group of workers coming in who are

505
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 3: more vulnerable, who are desperate for work, who are in

506
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 3: a marginalized position, and thinking, oh, no, they're gonna mess

507
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: with our guys, our people, instead of thinking, oh, we

508
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 3: need to organize them and bring them in so we

509
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 3: can help them out, and like our union will be

510
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: stronger as a result. The unions who have done that

511
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,959
Speaker 3: are still around like they are more effective than the

512
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: ones that were you know, exclusionary. And I've refused to

513
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 3: kind of get with the times and realize that all

514
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 3: workers deserve a union, and all workers maybe deserve to

515
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 3: join your union depending on what you do. Is like

516
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 3: I think a good example of unions kind of and

517
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 3: this isn't necessarily like that type of division. This is

518
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 3: more like just workplace division. But I think about the

519
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 3: United Autoworkers, who are obviously the storied industrial union, Like

520
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: there's I touched on them in the book, and they're

521
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 3: you know, they've been around forever. They're synonymous with like

522
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: Detroit at the rust Bell and like you know, the

523
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 3: automotive industry, and right now, out of their four hundred

524
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: thousand members, a quarter of those one hundred thousand people

525
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 3: they're grand students. They work in education, They work in

526
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: colleges and universities in California and across the country. Like

527
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 3: and that is the big shift, and that's a great

528
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: Like that is how you evolve. That is how you

529
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 3: grow and stay relevant. Like sure, an adjuct professor at

530
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, University California has a different experience from someone

531
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 3: working in a plant in Flint, Michigan. But that doesn't

532
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: mean that they still don't need those higher wages, those

533
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 3: better working conditions, that protection to the union contract, Like

534
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: we're all in this together. And the sooner than people

535
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,239
Speaker 3: realize that and act and organize around that principle, like

536
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 3: sooner we're gonna get shit.

537
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 4: Done, the sooner we'll get free.

538
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: I mean, really, it's so simple that people will fuck

539
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 3: it up so much over here more after a.

540
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: Quick break, let's get right back into it. So this

541
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: is probably where I should say that I have a

542
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: pretty complicated personal relationship with Amazon. If you walked into

543
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: my apartment building on any given day, there's probably a

544
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: few Amazon boxes shamefully stacked up in the trash, And

545
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: I honestly don't want to tell you how much I

546
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: order from them.

547
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 4: Let's just say it's a lot.

548
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: And I'd be willing to bet that I am not

549
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: a It's just the truth that our myself, very much included,

550
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: individual actions impact what life is like for workers at

551
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: Amazon warehouses.

552
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 4: So what should we do? So to that vein of.

553
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: Sort of the sooner we realize we're all in this together,

554
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 2: I have to sort of admit something something that I'm

555
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: like it's one of It's probably there's probably not many

556
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: things in my life that I am like more deeply

557
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: personally ashamed of than my personal relationship to Amazon. I

558
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: got very hooked on it during the pandemic. And what

559
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 2: I really mean is like I was clearly sort of

560
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: like relying on it to experience like a short term

561
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: serotonin boost of like new shit at my door because

562
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: I was depressed and said, like like most you, oh,

563
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 2: there's a sepoura box right behind you, right behind this

564
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 2: laptop that you can't see. So I yeah, And I

565
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 2: think there are probably people out.

566
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 4: There listening who can relate.

567
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: You know, do you think that there is a need

568
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: for all of us to sort of recalibrate around the

569
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 2: human cost of companies like Amazon and.

570
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: Sort of just like what it means.

571
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: You know, I've listened to Amazon workers talk about how

572
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: they're not robots, but I think it can be hard

573
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: for people, especially people who might kind of have to

574
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: rely on Amazon for whatever reason, like maybe they have

575
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: a disability, maybe they're a new mom, and like you know,

576
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 2: it's just like how shit gets done in their household.

577
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, I guess I wonder how can we

578
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: is there a way for us to sort of meaningly

579
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: recalibrate so that people to to sort of feel more

580
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: attuned with the fact that, like, yeah, the reason why

581
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: I was able to get a new hat in twenty

582
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: four hours is because of a person who brought it

583
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: here and a person who put it in a box

584
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: for me.

585
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 3: And that's hard. That's one of the great conundrums of

586
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 3: modern existence, right, like the idea of like no es

587
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 3: coal consumption under capitalism. I'm probably not even smart enough

588
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 3: to discuss all the implications of that, right, And I

589
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: do think that it's important to recognize that individual people

590
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 3: should not necessarily be on the hook for the actions

591
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: of massive corporations and the failed government that it's allowed

592
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 3: that things to get to this point. I mean, I

593
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: personally try to avoid Amazon, but like half the time

594
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: that just means I'm trying to find someone on Walmart

595
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: dot com. You know, like it's not we're kind of

596
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 3: we're stuck in this current reality. I mean, you can

597
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 3: do little things like instead of pushing for two day shipping,

598
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 3: go for like the later option, you know, like if

599
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 3: you're able, just go to the store, like if you

600
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 3: are not, Because a lot of people, like you said,

601
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: are dependent on delivery services because they're disabled, they're mun

602
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: to compromise, they have other stressors on their life that

603
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: means that they need to use these services. And I

604
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: think that is fine, Like people need to survive and

605
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: people need to thrive in the ways that they're able to.

606
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 3: But yeah, I think that ditching Amazon would be cool.

607
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: But then if everyone in the nation was like, we're

608
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: gonna boycott Amazon and then did it, that would be cool.

609
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 3: That would have an impact. But the US government still

610
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: pays Amazon to like use the Internet, Like there's all

611
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: that their tentacles are so deep into everything we consume

612
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: in every part of our existence, as like being to

613
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: use technology that there's only so much individual consumers can do.

614
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: So I don't know, like try to avoid it if

615
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: you can. But like halftime, my mother in law sends

616
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: us crap off Amazon anyway, Like there's she does not

617
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: listen to me, she's to Tellian. So it's a hard question, right,

618
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: Like I think even what you're talking about now, like

619
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 3: this step of realism, Like I got this because a

620
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: person brought it to me, a person pacted. That person

621
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 3: might be in pain, that person might be having a

622
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: hard time. Even just internalizing and understanding that aspect of

623
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: things will probably impact your consumer habits and will probably

624
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 3: impact the way you see, you know, petitions about workers

625
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: asking for better working conditions, or the way that you

626
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 3: support union drives. Like. I think the first step that

627
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: any person can take, no matter of the situation, is

628
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: to recognize the human cost of this. You know, these

629
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: consumption patterns, this setup, this whole you know, capitalist healthscape,

630
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: we're trapped within, like and then what you do from

631
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: there is kind of up to you. But I think

632
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: the putting the onus on individual people to fix all

633
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 3: this stuff isn't really fair when we have a government

634
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: and a social system and a capitalist society to blame.

635
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: You know, you can if we all got together and

636
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: did a boycott, that would be cool, But I don't know,

637
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 3: It's it's a hard question, right, Like, how do you

638
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: go up against a giant when you're not like because

639
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: consumers there's probably way that consumers could organize against Amazon,

640
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: but I don't know that will look like a boycott

641
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: a strike. It's I feel like people I see people

642
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: talking about, oh, we get a boycott Amazon all the

643
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: time whenever news comes out of how terrible they are.

644
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, avoid them if you can, But I

645
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,719
Speaker 3: think we need some kind of greater concentrated strategy if

646
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 3: we really wanted to take them down, and then what

647
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: will come after them? Would are we gonna go after

648
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: Walmart and Target? Like that's cool too, but it's it's

649
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 3: a big thorning thing. And if it comes down to it,

650
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: at the very least, don't pick twenty four hours ship.

651
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's that's a good like practical if you've

652
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: got to, if you've got a little bit of a

653
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: problematic relationship with Amazon, like I do, at least you

654
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: know you can you can make that experience if you're

655
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: going to buy from them, make that experience a little

656
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: less crappy for some of the workers who are doing

657
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: the work to bring you your serotonin boost or the

658
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: like life saving medicine that you need or what have you.

659
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's it comes down to remembering that there

660
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 3: are people in those warehouses and a lot of them

661
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: are in pain, and a lot of them are struggling.

662
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 3: Some of them are going to lose their lives because

663
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 3: the way that Amazon operates. And I mean, maybe I'm

664
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: not a big electoral guy, but pressuring your elected officials

665
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 3: to try and do something about Amazon and corporations like that,

666
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 3: that could be an avenue for people too. I feel

667
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 3: like there's a lot of different ways to slay a giant,

668
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 3: or at least, you know, cut a couple pounds of

669
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 3: flesh off of them. And hopefully one thing we'll see

670
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: from the success of Amazon laboring and drive and you know,

671
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 3: hopefully more rumblings that we'll see across the countries that

672
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: people will realize what's happening and realize the role they

673
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: play and just maybe reevaluate the way that they interact

674
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 3: with that system. And you know, if they have friends

675
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 3: at Amazon, maybe tell them about the union they union.

676
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 3: It would be a good step too.

677
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. I like that.

678
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: I mean it's so interesting because I was reading the

679
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: story yesterday, I think it was yesterday about how the

680
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: food delivery service grub Hub had this free they were

681
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 2: gonna do free lunch for three hours yesterday, and it

682
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,439
Speaker 2: basically was a shit show. All the kitchens were really

683
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: backed up, and come to find out, they didn't tell

684
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: any of the kitchens or the delivery drivers that this

685
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: was happening, And so part of me was like, are

686
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: they just so divorced from the idea of like human

687
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 2: labor that they didn't even think that they needed to give.

688
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: These people a heads up on what they were doing.

689
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: It's like, I mean, they don't consider those people employees

690
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 3: even even though they clearly work for the country, and

691
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: they don't consider them like equal partners when they're dealing

692
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 3: with these kindive restaurants. I mean, grub mom is so shady.

693
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: I was just reading today, like I live supporter from

694
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 3: like an incredible Indonesian restaurant and they're posting an Instagram

695
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 3: like please don't order for rephub. We didn't ask to

696
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 3: be on there. They don't have our prices right, Like

697
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: we were trying to get them to take it down,

698
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: like they will do that. They'll try and encroach on

699
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: independent businesses like whole operations, just because they think it

700
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: might get them more of a commission. Like they don't

701
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: care about the people they quote unquote partner with at all,

702
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 3: whether they're business owners and restaurant workers or those livery workers.

703
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 3: Like it does come with them down to that idea

704
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 3: that the people that are doing this labor are invisible

705
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: to the people that are making these decisions that impact

706
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 3: their days, like, Oh, they'll figure it out. Oh, there's

707
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 3: plenty of drivers. Oh there's so many ways to justify

708
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 3: treating people poorly if you don't have their welfare and

709
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: their well being at the top of your mind. And

710
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: that's clearly what happens with these tech companies. They don't

711
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 3: like the fact that so many people that work for

712
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: tech companies are resigned in this weird nether realm of

713
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 3: gig work instead of just being given a W two.

714
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 3: And clearly now as the employees they are, like when

715
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 3: someone will even acknowledge that you work for them, Like,

716
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: they're certainly not going to acknowledge your humanity if they

717
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 3: don't value enough to give you the proper legal paperwork,

718
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: they do not care how your day is going. And

719
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: that is the problem.

720
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 4: It is a problem.

721
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's I it's so interesting to me how

722
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: oftentimes tech company when we're talking about organized labor, it's

723
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: often conversations about tech companies. Do you do you see

724
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: technology and labor as linked?

725
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: Oh?

726
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not. I'm not a technology guy. And

727
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: there's definitely reporters who do really good work in that space,

728
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: but especially folks at Motherboard shout out to Edward m.

729
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: Wiso and Lauren Gurley, they're really on top of those

730
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: those intersections. I'm kind of a dummy when it comes

731
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 3: to tech stuff, but even just in terms of what

732
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: you see happening, whether it's in like the gig work

733
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 3: world or the increasing surveillance that companies are able to

734
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 3: levy against you need organize, you know, Amazon's little band

735
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 3: word list on their internal chat or whole big brother

736
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: aspect of them being able to monitor everything you do. Like,

737
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: technology and labor have always been connected, I mean going

738
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: back to the Industrial Revolution, right, like that new technology

739
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 3: that came in back in the day pulled people out

740
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: of an uprooted society, pulled people into these factories and

741
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: these dark satanic mills totally kind of reconceive the way

742
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 3: people related to labor and wage labor specifically. I mean.

743
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: One of the things about tech work and like gigwork.

744
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 3: I keep harping on this gigwork gig economy thing, but

745
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 3: I think it is so insiduous and it is such

746
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: a big issue in labor right now, is that that's

747
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: not necessarily a new thing either. Because when you think

748
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: about gigwork, like someone who is a gig worker. You're

749
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: giving little assignments and you get a little bit of

750
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: money for every little piece that you do. You don't

751
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 3: have a specific set workday or set hours. You're just

752
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 3: kind of picking up whatever scraps come your way and

753
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 3: trying to piece together something you can survive on. That

754
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: is a very old concept, going back to the early

755
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 3: nineteen hundreds something called piece garment workers in New York

756
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 3: City specifically that time, the would spend all day laboring

757
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 3: at the factory and all day I mean like twelve

758
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 3: plus hours and poorly ventilated, hot or cold, locked door,

759
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: just nightmare places. They and a lot of them were women,

760
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: a lot of them were children. Well, these folks would

761
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: go spend all day in the factory and then come

762
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 3: home and they would bring home more scraps of fabric

763
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 3: or unfinished projects and work on these pieces and they

764
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: would get paid by the piece. And basically like they

765
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 3: they're kind of the predecessors of the folks that are

766
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,879
Speaker 3: stuck in this predicament right now because they didn't have

767
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: I mean, they had their their day job, but they

768
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: were trying to make more money. So they're being paid

769
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: so poorly at their day job by doing these bits

770
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 3: and pieces, and of course they got short changed. Of

771
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: course they were. You know, this isn't like in the

772
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 3: era of candle light. So imagine someone hunched over sewing

773
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 3: a shirt waist at one am in the morning. Poor

774
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 3: they had to wake up at five to go to

775
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 3: the factory. Like that is not that far removed from

776
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: what today's delivery drivers and rideshare app drivers and all

777
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 3: of the other things that are now being grouped into

778
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 3: this sort of amorphous gigwork, remote work. Just this weird

779
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: morass of garbage. It happened before, and regulations and labor

780
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 3: laws and progress in that space kind of chipped away

781
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: at that, And right now we're kind of in this

782
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 3: weird wild West zone where tech companies can do whatever

783
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 3: they want, which seems like maybe somebody in charge to

784
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 3: do something about that, but half the people in charge

785
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 3: are like friends with the tech people. So it's a

786
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: little bit of a different world. But some things really

787
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 3: haven't changed.

788
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely see that as well. So

789
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the book a little bit.

790
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 3: YEA, so.

791
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: Fight like Hell, the Untold Story, Untold History of American labor.

792
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: You're really right about the ways that people who have

793
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: been historically marginalized, like women and black folks and indigenous

794
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: folks were the life blood of labor and always have been,

795
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: and like our stories and our voices were always there,

796
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: even though you know, I feel like the face of

797
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 2: what we think of as someone involved in a union

798
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: is like a white male. I guess my question is one,

799
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 2: how do we make sure that we're telling a more

800
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 2: authentic story of what the face of labor actually looks like?

801
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: And are there any do you have a favorite figure

802
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 2: or person who you want to get more shine in

803
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: the history of labor?

804
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, okay, is it the second part and the

805
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 3: second but I think like as one of the most

806
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: important things to realize I'm recognized. It's like, you know,

807
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: the subtitle is the Untold History, And that's not to

808
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 3: say that folks haven't been telling these stories the whole time, right,

809
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 3: Like the workers told them in the first place, and

810
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 3: then contemporary journalists and chroniclers wrote them down, and then

811
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: historians and academic research as archivists, they dug into the

812
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: past and pulled out all these pieces and preserved them

813
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 3: and analyzed them and you know, tuck them away somewhere safe.

814
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 3: So then like journalists and nerds like me could come

815
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: in and kind of pull together and synthesize that information

816
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 3: and bring it out further people to see. I think

817
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 3: so much of it comes down to people that are

818
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 3: in a position to elevate these stories and write about labor,

819
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 3: write about history, do it in a way that's accessible

820
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 3: and intersectional and inclusive, Like it's not that hard, Like

821
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: literally you could like any labor book you could pick up,

822
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 3: Like there are black and brown and indigenous and queer

823
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 3: and disabled folks and women and every other gender like

824
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 3: in those stories too. It just depends on what you

825
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 3: choose to focus on. And I think that is something

826
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 3: that people can be more mindful of, and certainly not

827
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 3: folks in the academic space who are like very specifically

828
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: research specific groups or eras, like whether it's like Judy

829
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 3: Young who wrote a book called Unbound feed of social

830
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 3: History of San Francisco that was hugely impactful for my

831
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 3: research into that area, or doctor Turr Hunter who wrote

832
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: to Enjoy My Freedom, which is about Black women's labor

833
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 3: post reconstruction. Like, academics have done this work, but it

834
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: is not necessarily on offer to everyone, right, Like you

835
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 3: can't necessarily walk into a library and pick up their

836
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: books that you should be able to. It's there's a

837
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 3: little bit of a gap between what's available to folks

838
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: in the academic space and most available to folks that

839
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 3: like maybe walk by Barnes and Noble on their way

840
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 3: home from work. And it's really important to me to

841
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 3: pull together as much as I could from that history,

842
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,280
Speaker 3: and you know, pull from tons and tons of research

843
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 3: and different historians and newspapers and magazine articles and interviews

844
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: and put it together in a way that made it

845
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 3: very clear that everyone else has always been here and

846
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: it's done incredible things. And I hope that people will

847
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,760
Speaker 3: read my book and then read the bibliography and follow

848
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: those breadcrumbs and find some more of those those important writings,

849
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: because this is just the beginning. This is kind of

850
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: an intro to a lot of these folks. Like one

851
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: of the people to your second question, one of the

852
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 3: people that I was so excited to write about because

853
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 3: I thought I knew so much about her. Turns out

854
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: I was wrong. A woman named Lucy Parsons who and

855
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 3: I knew about her just from my involvement like Radical Space.

856
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 3: She's kind of like an anarchist art icon, and I

857
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: had read an earlier biography of her from the seventies,

858
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 3: I'd read her own writings. I thought I had a

859
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 3: pretty good grip on who she was. But then this

860
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 3: history named Jacqueline Jones put out a book a couple

861
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 3: of years ago called A Goddess of Anarchy that was

862
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 3: this exhaustively researched biography of Lucy Parson's life. And it

863
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 3: turns out that the common wisdom about her and her

864
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 3: life was pretty wrong during her lifetime, and Lucy Parsons,

865
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 3: she was kind of a chameleon. It was kind of

866
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: to her. She decided to shape shift a little bit

867
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 3: and hide who she was in order to be more

868
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 3: impactful in her work and more easily relatable to the

869
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: white factory workers she was trying to organize, right, because

870
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 3: she presented herself as a mixed like Spanish and indigenous

871
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 3: maiden from Texas. That's how she said she was, and

872
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 3: she said she was from there. She moved to Chicago

873
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 3: with her husband, Albert Parsons in the late eighteen hundreds,

874
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 3: and they set up shop and started organizing in the

875
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 3: anarchist community and the labor community. Like she was a

876
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: dressmaker and she organized lady like women garment workers, and

877
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: she she had like a very interesting overlap when it

878
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 3: comes to like labor and inarchist politics, revolutionary politics, because

879
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 3: at that time a lot of those folks were the

880
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: same people like that was a very not incestuous, but

881
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 3: a very interconnected community, like it kind of still is

882
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: now right like radicals, we've always been here, We've always

883
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 3: been getting up to mischief in the labor movement elsewhere.

884
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: But so yeah, she was she and she was a

885
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 3: co founder of the Industrial Works for the World. IWW

886
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: like she she had an impact in the labor community

887
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: certainly and in labor history. But Lucy Parsons was not

888
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 3: who she said she was. She was born in Virginia

889
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 3: on a plantation. She was a black woman who was

890
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 3: born enslaved, who moved out to Texas following emancipation, and

891
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 3: then she kind of built up her own mythology to

892
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: protect herself and for other reasons that I don't know

893
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: what went through her head. I haven't met her, but

894
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: she was just this fascinating character and she intersected with

895
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 3: so many different pieces of so many different movements. But

896
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 3: I tried to write better in a way that showed

897
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 3: like how important and interesting and like radical and militon

898
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 3: she was, but also acknowledged like she was not perfect,

899
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: like even outside of her own identity, and you know

900
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 3: the way she presented herself like she did. She made

901
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: some pretty gnarly decisions in her life, and you can

902
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 3: read more about it. But it was a challenge to

903
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 3: write about a figure that I've admired for so long

904
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 3: and to kind of address a little bit of the

905
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: ugular and messy humanity of a person like that. But

906
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: I was really excited to include her because I feel

907
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 3: like she's very well known in radical circles, but labor people,

908
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 3: unless you're like in Chicago and have a specific interest

909
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: in that point in time, you probably don't know that

910
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 3: much about Lucy Parson, so you probably have a pretty

911
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 3: negative view of her and the other anarchists, and hoping

912
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 3: to kind of, I don't know, present a more balanced

913
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 3: view of someone who I think is a really important

914
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 3: historical figure.

915
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: That's fascinating and it really does go back to recognizing

916
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: humanity and sort of if you only know Lucy Persons

917
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: as this you know hero figure that you miss out

918
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: on all these other parts of who she was and

919
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 2: how and what made her her and how she showed

920
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: up in the world.

921
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 4: And I don't know.

922
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: Isn't it better to have a messy, complex, honest human

923
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: person to to, you know, look to for guidance than

924
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: a hero than someone who, like you know, is just

925
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: isn't isn't all of those things right?

926
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 3: Because that just makes it seem like a storybook kind

927
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 3: of situation or a fairytale instead of a flesh and

928
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 3: blood person, a historical thing that happened. And so many

929
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 3: of the people in this book are complicated or they've

930
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 3: been either people that have been kind of left out

931
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 3: or they have been included but not in the fullness

932
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 3: of their whole experience. Like I started out the book

933
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: in one of the earlier chapters talking about the Triangle

934
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 3: Shirwey's Factory fire, which I feel like a lot of

935
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 3: people know about that. That's a big one. And Clara Lemlick,

936
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 3: one of the organizers of the Garment Workers Union, that

937
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 3: was kind of in that mediu right, like she was

938
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 3: part of the uprosing of the twenty thousand in nineteen

939
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 3: oh nine. She that was before the Triangle Factory fire.

940
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 3: But they're connected because Clara Lemlich, who was often painted

941
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 3: as this just kind of spunky girl who stood up

942
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 3: in a meeting and said we're going to go on strike,

943
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: like she was a Ukrainian Jewish immigrant who had been

944
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 3: organizing for years. She had gotten her ribs broken by

945
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: the cops on a picket line, like she was an organizer,

946
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 3: she was out there, like she was not just a

947
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: spontaneous romantic heroine, like she was in that struggle. And

948
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 3: like the connection with the triangle of Shirtway factory fire

949
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 3: is that the work that Clara Lemlix and other organizers

950
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 3: predominantly at that point Eastern European Jewish women and Italian women,

951
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: the work they had done. If the owners of that

952
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: factory had signed on to the agreement that those organizers

953
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: in that strike forced, like most of the other garment

954
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 3: factors in the area in Manhattan to sign those workers

955
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 3: probably would't have burned to death, like they were one

956
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 3: of the only factories that didn't sign on to these

957
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 3: more increased safety cords. So that's yeah, I'm going I

958
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 3: guess a slightly different direction. But it just shows that

959
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 3: like these human people that are so connected to so

960
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 3: many other things happening, like you're in no one's just

961
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: a hero, you know. Sometimes you're someone who got beat

962
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 3: up by the cops and decided, Okay, I'm going to

963
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: keep going. I'm going to force this system to change

964
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: because it's not fair.

965
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: Starting with the Starbucks in Buffalo in twenty twenty one,

966
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: Starbucks Bristas have been unionizing across the country in states

967
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: like California and Utah, and a lot of this energy

968
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: is being sparked by a new generation younger folks. Seventy

969
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: seven percent of young adults support unions, according to a

970
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: September Gallop Pole and I have to say that feels

971
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: pretty darn hopeful. We're in this moment where it feels

972
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: like a lot of big wins for labor. You know,

973
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 2: the first Starbucks unizing, you know, the JFK eight. I'm

974
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: seeing a lot of interesting chatter about unions on places

975
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 2: like TikTok where younger folks hang out like gen Z,

976
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: so they're really fire up about unions. Are you hopeful

977
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: that we're entering this new era of union power?

978
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: I am always hopeful to the point of almost being

979
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 3: a Pollyanna about these things. And that's I think that is.

980
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 3: It's definitely a conscious decision to be hopeful and be

981
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 3: optimistic because the labor movement has kind of been in

982
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,919
Speaker 3: decline since really before I was born, and I'm thirty four,

983
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 3: so I guess, like the entirety that I have been

984
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 3: on this earth, the numbers of union density has been falling.

985
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 3: You know, anti union legislation has been cutting us off

986
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 3: at the knees. There have been all of these factors

987
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 3: like manufacturing. Laura knows what happened there, Like, there have

988
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 3: been all these factors kind of pulling the movement out

989
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 3: of the movement, like kind of putting a damper on things.

990
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: We'll say. And you know, facts aren't always fun. Numbers

991
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 3: are not always fun, especially when you're looking at your density.

992
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 3: But we are in a moment where, like you said, specifically,

993
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 3: the younger generation is interested and fired up in paying attention.

994
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 3: And not only are they paying attention, they're doing something.

995
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 3: They're organizing. I mean the Starbucks workers and Amazon workers

996
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: like those are younger people. Like not only are they

997
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 3: younger people, they're queer at trands, at black and brown

998
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 3: immigrant workers, like workers fromd these marginalized backgrounds that have

999
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 3: always formed the backbone and the labor movement, but have

1000
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 3: not necessarily gotten their due, Like these are the workers

1001
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 3: propelling things forward, and that is important and significance. And

1002
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 3: even some of the conversation I've seen, like on TikTok

1003
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 3: and other places where maybe a traditional labor union isn't

1004
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 3: the answer for some specific groups of people, that doesn't

1005
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 3: mean that then thinking about it is inconsequential, and that

1006
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 3: doesn't mean they're going to find a different way to

1007
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 3: organize and find a different way to harness their labor.

1008
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 3: Like I got an email from a person actually get

1009
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 3: able of them back about a bunch of independent sellers

1010
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 3: on Etsy who want to form an independent seller's guild,

1011
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 3: and that is that is very interesting, Like I need

1012
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: to do a little bit of reading to figure out

1013
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 3: what to tell them, because like that's kind of a

1014
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 3: whole bunch of small business owners coming together and they

1015
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 3: want to organize against this bigger company that they are

1016
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 3: kind of in dialogue with. Like that is not like

1017
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 3: that's tricky. It's a little complicated, but it's very interesting.

1018
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 3: Like that is not something that would have happened five

1019
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 3: years ago, or maybe even a couple of years ago.

1020
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 3: Like all of these new organizing wins and some of

1021
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 3: the setbacks and some of the losses, like that is

1022
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 3: all working in concert to get people excited and give

1023
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 3: people an option, because I think a lot of folks

1024
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 3: for a very long time have maybe either felt or

1025
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 3: been made to feel like the labor movement isn't for them,

1026
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 3: like unions aren't for them. Like back when I was advice,

1027
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 3: when someone asked me if I went to unionize, I

1028
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 3: was like, we can do that, like we were Williamsburg,

1029
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 3: Like there's kombucha and the fridge. Like really, like my

1030
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 3: dad's operating engineer, I can be in the same movement

1031
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 3: as him, and I could, and so can anyone else.

1032
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,240
Speaker 3: There are a lot of ways to form a union,

1033
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 3: a lot of ways to organize with your coworkers and

1034
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 3: build power. And I think this current generation, gosh, it

1035
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 3: feels so it makes it feel so old to say that.

1036
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 3: I'm like, not older, promise, but definitely people younger than

1037
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 3: me are doing really big things. And I don't think

1038
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 3: that's gonna stop. Like I know that Amazon is Starbucks

1039
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 3: are going to pull out every stop and use every

1040
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 3: nefarious legal means and probably extra legal means they can

1041
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 3: think of to try and slow this wave down. And

1042
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 3: try to, you know, stave off union negotiations and put

1043
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: a stop to this. But I don't think you can

1044
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 3: put that lightning back in the bottle. And I think

1045
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 3: if those big corporations keep actively trying to bust up

1046
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 3: these unions and break down these organizers, spirits like they're

1047
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:55,480
Speaker 3: gonna be consequences. You can't be a big quote unquote

1048
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 3: progressive company and be a union buster and have anyone

1049
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 3: take you seriously. Like, I think the tide has turned

1050
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 3: in a very real way. And I'm sure that there

1051
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: are labor storians and economists who would have a whole

1052
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 3: bunch of like, you know, like my broader perspective and numbers,

1053
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 3: and have a lot of things to say about that.

1054
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 3: But as someone who's just like studied unions a lot

1055
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 3: and talked to a lot of workers, and it's very

1056
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 3: excited about unions in general, Like, it feels like a

1057
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 3: very cool time to be alive and to be paying attention.

1058
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 3: And I am so grateful to those younger workers who

1059
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 3: are kind of pushing the movement in this direction where

1060
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 3: it's needed to go for so long.

1061
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 4: I love it. I love a hopeful ending.

1062
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 3: I'm just I believe that we will win, even if

1063
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 3: it's after I'm dead.

1064
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: Kim, where can people keep up with all the amazing

1065
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 2: worker up to and get the book?

1066
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 3: So you can buy the book anywhere? I mean, fuck Amazon,

1067
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 3: but if you got it, you can get it on Amazon.

1068
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 3: But I always tell people to uh if you can

1069
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 3: either order it from like bookshop or Indie bound or

1070
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 3: like an independent bookstore, or get it from the library.

1071
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: Like the library changed my life. I wouldn't be here

1072
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 3: without it. So if for library has it, just get

1073
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 3: it there. I don't care. I just want you to

1074
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,280
Speaker 3: read it. And I'm aggressively online. I am on Twitter

1075
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 3: at grim Kim and on Instagram is Kim Kelly writer,

1076
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 3: and I have a Patreon thing. I think it's just

1077
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: Kim Kelly and yeah, I'm too old for TikTok and

1078
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 3: all that, but maybe if I figure it out you

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00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 3: can hopefully you'll find me on there. But yeah, give

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00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 3: me the little time my thirties. Man, I've fallen apart.

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Speaker 4: Awesome.

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that I did not ask but you

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00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 2: want to make sure it gets included?

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00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 3: Mmm? No, this is incredible. But I guess the last

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00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 3: thing I will say is that I wrote this book

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00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 3: for workers, and for regular people to read on their

1087
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 3: breaks or on the bus, or when you get home

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00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: from a long day, to pick it up and page

1089
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 3: through it and hopefully find people on the pages that

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00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 3: ring true to you. I want people to see themselves

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00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 3: in this book and to recognize that they are part

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00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 3: of this incredible history and they're part of the future too,

1093
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 3: Like the labor movement has always belonged to all of us,

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00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 3: whether or not the people powers wanted us to recognize that.

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00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 3: And the only way we're going to get closer to

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00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 3: me and free is by working together. You're recognizing that

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00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 3: power and fighting like hell of tabe What's Ours.

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00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,239
Speaker 2: If you're looking for ways to support the show, check

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00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 2: out our March store at tangodi dot com slash store.

1100
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

1101
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: just want to say hi, You can reach us at

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00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 2: Hello at teangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

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00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 2: for today's episode at TENG.

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00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 4: Goody dot com.

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Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

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00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 2: me bridget Tood. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative,

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00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 2: edited by Joey Pat Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer.

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00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almada

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00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 2: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

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00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 2: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

1111
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

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Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

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Speaker 2: podcasts