Speaker 1: Hey, you, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My
Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.
Speaker 1: Time to go into that old vault. And this is
Speaker 1: going to be an episode from July that you actually
Speaker 1: did with our old friend Christian Seger. Yeah, this episode
Speaker 1: gets into the topic of a museum and some related
Speaker 1: conditions in which an individual does not get music. And
Speaker 1: I don't mean in the sense that, like you know,
Speaker 1: they just don't get funk or they don't get this
Speaker 1: particular genre. Don't understand why everybody likes Eric clapton solo career, right,
Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea that music could just not be
Speaker 1: connecting with certain brains, uh, the way that it does
Speaker 1: with the rest of us, that sounds very interesting. I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'll give it a listen. All right, well, let's
Speaker 1: go ahead and dive into minds of musical emptiness. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Seger. Hey, Robert,
Speaker 1: have you ever met a person who doesn't like music?
Speaker 1: I do not think I've ever met anyone who just
Speaker 1: across the board doesn't like music. I've certainly met plenty
Speaker 1: of people who seem to dislike music in certain scenarios
Speaker 1: because I'm the kind of type of types of music,
Speaker 1: you mean, well, types of music, but also music in
Speaker 1: certain situations, like I've certainly known people who don't like
Speaker 1: music while driving. I'm of the mindset I want music
Speaker 1: on all the time, just about music of my own choose,
Speaker 1: but music. I know a lot of our colleagues have
Speaker 1: difficulty writing while there's music on. I don't have that problem,
Speaker 1: although I do like sort of cultivate playlists of stuff
Speaker 1: that helps me to write, you know, mostly instrumental stuff
Speaker 1: that sometimes there's certain music that I can listen to
Speaker 1: that has vocals that I can listen to all writing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, I know, like you like,
Speaker 1: I've known like various sort of iterations of people who
Speaker 1: can't listen to music during certain times. I've only met
Speaker 1: like one or two people in my life who just don't.
Speaker 1: They literally say I don't like music, and that's so alien,
Speaker 1: so difficult for us to comprehend, because it's like hearing
Speaker 1: someone say, oh, I don't I don't like food, Like
Speaker 1: I don't like drinking liquids. It almost seems in human
Speaker 1: in a way. And I think like when you hear that,
Speaker 1: at least in my experience, people will kind of think like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's the trade of a psychopath, right, But it's not.
Speaker 1: It's actually not. We've talked about psychopaths on the show
Speaker 1: and that hasn't come up as one of the symptoms.
Speaker 1: But also, as we're going to talk about today, this
Speaker 1: is a real brain condition. Yeah, at least a couple
Speaker 1: of different conditions we're going to discuss, and I think
Speaker 1: they both serve to remind us just how tenuous our
Speaker 1: sensory experience of the world really is. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: think about you and me, right, Like, the audience probably
Speaker 1: knows if they don't already, that you are really into
Speaker 1: electronic music, and you cover it for stuff to blow
Speaker 1: your mind, i'd say weekly, right, Yeah. And um, and I,
Speaker 1: as many people have heard on other episodes, grew up
Speaker 1: in the punkin metal scene and still listen to a
Speaker 1: lot of that stuff, which a lot of people find
Speaker 1: unlistenable and dissonant, including you know, my wife, and um,
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, but it's interesting because dissonance plays
Speaker 1: into these diseases as well. Well, here's a quick question
Speaker 1: for you, and I think this helps to sort of
Speaker 1: this helps a lot of us, uh try and comprehend
Speaker 1: what some of these conditions are. Like, Like what what's
Speaker 1: the type of music that you just really don't get
Speaker 1: that you just you can't really listen to, you don't understand,
Speaker 1: and and you're just willing to say, yeah, I that
Speaker 1: is not from me usually like NPR style jazz. I
Speaker 1: don't want to just say jazz in general, because there's
Speaker 1: plenty of stuff that's being done in that area that's
Speaker 1: interesting and I like, but like that kind of like
Speaker 1: background elevator music jazz, you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: that that drives me crazy. It's like fingers on a chalkboard.
Speaker 1: For me. It's I have to say jazz as well.
Speaker 1: And part of this could be I mean, the view
Speaker 1: I guess is that jazz takes some getting used to.
Speaker 1: You have to be you have to immerse yourself in it.
Speaker 1: And I like some jazz, and I like jazzy elements
Speaker 1: and some of the music I listened to from time
Speaker 1: to time, But it's that jazzy jazz that spacey jazz
Speaker 1: that that completely unhinged jazz that just kind of gives
Speaker 1: me the shape something. We think of this joke on
Speaker 1: Parks and Rack. I don't know if you remember this,
Speaker 1: but the their local MPR station, they had a show
Speaker 1: and they would say jazz plus jazz equals jazz. Whenever
Speaker 1: I hear something like that, I'm like nope. During the channel.
Speaker 1: I often think about it that it's maybe like a
Speaker 1: like a strong alcoholic property. You know, something strong liqueur
Speaker 1: that you would never drink on your on its own,
Speaker 1: but you would use in a recipe or you would
Speaker 1: certainly used in using a mixed drink. So I often think, well,
Speaker 1: that is that is the strong, undeluded stuff that is
Speaker 1: not for me. Yeah, but you can put a like
Speaker 1: a shot of it, or like I will. I don't
Speaker 1: drink clearly so shots a lot, but you know a
Speaker 1: little bit. It's like adding grenadine to your to your
Speaker 1: soda or something like to drink and given a little flavor. Well,
Speaker 1: like punk is is one of those things. I think
Speaker 1: about this sometimes it's like pure punk. I've just it's
Speaker 1: not my scene, it's not what I dig. But I
Speaker 1: have certainly loved groups that have elements of punk in
Speaker 1: their sound. They neither come out of punk or find
Speaker 1: some of their musical genre to combine it with, Like
Speaker 1: um oh the Poges come to mind. Yeah, like a
Speaker 1: little bit of Irish music, a little bit of punk music.
Speaker 1: It's really I would be hard pressed to want to
Speaker 1: listen to Irish or punk music on their own, but
Speaker 1: when these two come together, then I you know, I've
Speaker 1: always enjoyed it. Yeah, No, I can definitely see that,
Speaker 1: even like having spent many a year in basements watching
Speaker 1: just like crusty punk bands just hammering out four chord songs. Uh,
Speaker 1: I can understand where you're coming from, and that that
Speaker 1: sort of has led to like what a lot of
Speaker 1: our I guess, like popular alternative music is nowadays. Right,
Speaker 1: it's sort of like a fusion of punk and jazz
Speaker 1: or punkin metal, or where Joe and I were just
Speaker 1: talking the other night about SKA like nineties and how
Speaker 1: that was sort of something like that. Yeah. Well, okay,
Speaker 1: enough about our musical interests, but so clearly we're human
Speaker 1: beings who love music. We've got opinions about music. We
Speaker 1: like to talk about it, we like to listen to it,
Speaker 1: we go to shows um. But there's people out there
Speaker 1: who don't. And it's not just because you know they don't,
Speaker 1: they don't go to things like that, or they're just
Speaker 1: not it's because there's literally something going on in their
Speaker 1: brain that makes it so that they're incapable of enjoying music. Right,
Speaker 1: something's wired differently, Some systems are online in a slightly
Speaker 1: different array, and we will get into into these in
Speaker 1: a moment, but before we do, without would be helpful
Speaker 1: to just go ahead and give a nice overview of
Speaker 1: the cognitive experience of music, just basically what's going on
Speaker 1: when we process it. So music is of course a
Speaker 1: deep part of our cognitive architecture. It changes our mood,
Speaker 1: it heightens our emotions, it summons and banishes memories, It
Speaker 1: affects the manner in which we preceive perceived time. Even
Speaker 1: we can actually use it to treat illnesses of the
Speaker 1: mind and body. So it's powerful stuff. It's potent stuff
Speaker 1: that's not even just with human beings. There's been research
Speaker 1: done on plants that music affects plants, so we're talking
Speaker 1: about some serious magic here. There are parts of the
Speaker 1: brain that respond to music that that don't respond to language.
Speaker 1: There are separate parts of the brain that respond to melody,
Speaker 1: to the melody of language, different than these different for
Speaker 1: the parts of the brain the respond to the melody
Speaker 1: of music, they're parts of the brain that deal with movement, attention, planning,
Speaker 1: and memory, and these all respond to music even though
Speaker 1: they don't have anything to do with the actual auditory process.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on behind the scenes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and we don't fully understand it yet. I mean,
Speaker 1: I would say this research well, you know, we'll talk
Speaker 1: about it later, but really, only in the last century
Speaker 1: have we even been aware of this as a medical condition.
Speaker 1: But only in maybe the last twenty or thirty years
Speaker 1: has there been like real deep research into what this means. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and certainly there's a lot of wonderful research out there
Speaker 1: about our relationship with music, and we can't cover it
Speaker 1: all here, but just a couple of i think illuminating
Speaker 1: studies to to touch on here. Um In in recent years,
Speaker 1: we found that you can look to the brain via
Speaker 1: f m R I, and specifically you can look at
Speaker 1: brain activity in the nucleus incumbents. This is involved in
Speaker 1: the formation of expectations, and we can actually tell if
Speaker 1: a person is enjoying the music they're listening to. By
Speaker 1: looking at at brain activity in this region, if it's
Speaker 1: meeting their musical expectations and matching up with the stored
Speaker 1: templates of what you've heard before, then you see stuff
Speaker 1: light up. Um yeah, I could absolutely believe that given
Speaker 1: my experience with music. Yeah, Like if you're just like A,
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like here's an example, Like I walk
Speaker 1: around sometimes and I'll just have like my entire music
Speaker 1: library on shuffle on my phone or something like that,
Speaker 1: Like one like really great song for my high school
Speaker 1: days will pop up, and it's like I can feel
Speaker 1: like whatever those lights are that are going on in
Speaker 1: my brain just activate, you know. Yeah. Yeah. The expectation
Speaker 1: plays such an interesting role in our experiencing music because
Speaker 1: on one hand, there's there's something that happens when a
Speaker 1: when a melody or a tune or the lyrics take
Speaker 1: you to that place you're expecting it to go. But
Speaker 1: then also when it goes to a slightly different place
Speaker 1: where it kind of you think it's going to turn
Speaker 1: left and it turns right, like that animates you as well.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's almost like narrative without words, really ah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting way to put it. I um,
Speaker 1: I'll just do a little bit of subjective experience here
Speaker 1: to throw in here. I'm not like, personally a big
Speaker 1: fan of The Cure, but a friend of mine is,
Speaker 1: uh and if he's listening her, this is your story.
Speaker 1: So The Cure just played in Atlanta recently, like I
Speaker 1: think like two weeks ago. Did you know about this?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I have. I have some friends who are
Speaker 1: really they went to this show. So the way that
Speaker 1: he told me was that, like, apparently this tour was
Speaker 1: like you know, they're going to be playing all their
Speaker 1: greatest hits or whatever, but that was sort of like
Speaker 1: a different arrangement of the musical instruments. So he was
Speaker 1: really excited because he's like, well, I'm gonna hear the
Speaker 1: songs that I love, and it's gonna be played by
Speaker 1: the guys who wrote them, but they're going to be
Speaker 1: playing them in very different ways than I'm used to
Speaker 1: and that's a wholly new experience. Oh yeah, I've had
Speaker 1: that experience with I guess tool has been. It seems
Speaker 1: like the kind of band that would do something like that.
Speaker 1: They'll play with the intro on something and so the
Speaker 1: live version, at first you're not sure what it's going
Speaker 1: to be, but then then you realize, oh, it's it's
Speaker 1: this track, it's that track, whatever the particular track may be.
Speaker 1: And there's this, you know, a physical experience of excitement
Speaker 1: to when I was, you know, still involved in the
Speaker 1: music scening just go into a lot of shows. The
Speaker 1: thing that was always the most impressive to me, and
Speaker 1: that just showed like a real class act, professional touring band,
Speaker 1: was when they could play an entire set without stopping,
Speaker 1: Like they would just start and their songs. They had
Speaker 1: figured out ways to weave their songs in and out
Speaker 1: of one another, so they would just play like a
Speaker 1: really tight thirty forty minutes set and then boom they
Speaker 1: were done, got off on stage. And that is the
Speaker 1: kind of thing that just floors you. It's just like
Speaker 1: you don't have time to stop and breathe and kind
Speaker 1: of judge them, uh for other factors like whatever they're wearing,
Speaker 1: or what they say in between songs or something. You're
Speaker 1: just like bombarded. Well, that's one of the reasons that
Speaker 1: I've been so into DJ mixes over the years that, uh,
Speaker 1: it's not quite the same as a as a band
Speaker 1: performing the entire set without stop. But this the idea
Speaker 1: that you can take various musical elements and and a
Speaker 1: talented DJ can create a seamless tapestry of sound. I
Speaker 1: love that, and certainly you get those six surprises. Those
Speaker 1: expectations net Or skewed throughout that sonic narrative as well.
Speaker 1: So all right, we're clearly establishing that we're music nerds.
Speaker 1: We love music, and whatever parts of the brain that
Speaker 1: don't work for for some of these people, they're they're
Speaker 1: lighting up like fireworks for us. Now. Another key point, though,
Speaker 1: is certainly you've been to a concert or performance and
Speaker 1: you've been experiencing the music, and maybe you've seen somebody
Speaker 1: like clearly their significant other drug them here and they're
Speaker 1: not enjoying it, or they got When you said drugged them,
Speaker 1: I thought like ruderally gave them drugs so that they
Speaker 1: would just sit put. But yeah, that's that's that's possible,
Speaker 1: depending on the because I've seen you both. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you've seen people that are not into it, or they're
Speaker 1: they don't they're clearly the first time, or maybe they
Speaker 1: you don't feel like they could possibly be enjoying the
Speaker 1: music on the same level as you are. Yeah, possibly
Speaker 1: and certainly like and I have to applaud my wife again,
Speaker 1: like she's indulged me by you know, sometimes I can't
Speaker 1: get a friend to go with me to a particular
Speaker 1: kind of thing. She's like, all right, you know, let's
Speaker 1: I'll go with you. You know, we'll go see Converge
Speaker 1: and High on Fire. And she's just sitting there like
Speaker 1: shaking her head while I'm like really into it, you know, Um,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I get that. Well. It's interesting because despite
Speaker 1: all of our very musical taste, in our varying levels
Speaker 1: of engagement with particular types of music, particular performances, the
Speaker 1: brain experiences that we have are actually pretty consistent among
Speaker 1: most people. There was a two thousand thirteen study publishing
Speaker 1: the European Journal of Euroscience, and they found that if
Speaker 1: two people listened to the same track, one inexperienced fan
Speaker 1: of the music and another not the other one just
Speaker 1: like a newcomer, you know, there's been dragged in there
Speaker 1: by their spouse, you're still going to see the same
Speaker 1: synchronization in several key brain areas and similar brain activity.
Speaker 1: So as much as you you know, might like to
Speaker 1: think you're experiencing your favorite band and an entirely different
Speaker 1: cognitive level than the you know, the dumb guy next
Speaker 1: to you with the glories on his fingers. Um, that
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be quite the case. We're still engaging
Speaker 1: like the same networks. I wonder if this is similar
Speaker 1: to like research that's been done on depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: in that like, Um, the more you listen to the
Speaker 1: songs over and over again, right, Like, it's maybe it's
Speaker 1: like a like writing over the same pathway of the
Speaker 1: brain over and over and over again, so it makes
Speaker 1: it easier for that experience to happen. It's happening in
Speaker 1: the same way for everybody, but it's just kind of
Speaker 1: going through the brain. I don't know how to describe
Speaker 1: this other than with like road metaphors, right, Like, it's
Speaker 1: like going down the same road, but it's just like
Speaker 1: going down faster for for us or something an expectation,
Speaker 1: right yeah, where the road is going to turn, where
Speaker 1: it's gonna split, etcetera. Yeah, interesting, huh. I wonder if
Speaker 1: anybody's done research on that, Like the the the experience
Speaker 1: of having music encoded to the brain as being similar
Speaker 1: to the sort of expectations that encode anxiety into people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll have to follow up on that, because I know
Speaker 1: there have been a number of studies that have looked into,
Speaker 1: you know, the potential therapeutic aspects of music as well
Speaker 1: as the role of music and in various emotional states. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: and you think about it, like some of the emotional
Speaker 1: states that are created by listening to music have very
Speaker 1: similar symptoms to anxiety. Huh. All right, maybe that's a
Speaker 1: future episode. We'll have to dig deep for that one.
Speaker 1: But let's take a quick break and then when we
Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about the condition of
Speaker 1: a musia or tone deafness. All right, we're back. So
Speaker 1: this first one, tone deaf deafness amusia. I feel like
Speaker 1: this is going to be the one where we're going
Speaker 1: to see far more listeners who can share experiences with this. Certainly,
Speaker 1: we've probably all encountered people with varying levels of tone
Speaker 1: deafness over the years, and it seems like tone deafness
Speaker 1: has variations on it, like extremes or you know, some
Speaker 1: people have it to to less an extent than others.
Speaker 1: The term congenital amusia is what we use to denote
Speaker 1: tone deafness that you're born with. It's been described in
Speaker 1: medical literature for more than a century, and it manifests
Speaker 1: basically as a severe deficiency in processing pitch variations. Now
Speaker 1: this extends to impairments in musical memory and recognition, as
Speaker 1: well as what we traditionally think of his tone deafness
Speaker 1: as like bad singing or the inability to tap in
Speaker 1: time with music. Right. Um, everybody's right now is probably
Speaker 1: thinking of like the person who I don't know was
Speaker 1: inquired or something like they just couldn't hit the notes. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: Some literature also refers to a musia as dis melodia
Speaker 1: or dismusia, but the term amusia is generally agreed to
Speaker 1: be preferable because it acknowledged just the possibility that there
Speaker 1: exists as many forms of congenital amusias as there are
Speaker 1: forms of acquired amusias. And what I mean by that
Speaker 1: is accidental brain damage, So you can hurt yourself a
Speaker 1: variety of ways that will also produce this effect. Now,
Speaker 1: to clarify, congenital means present from birth, but it is
Speaker 1: possible to acquire a musia through brain damage in life.
Speaker 1: The very first study that looked at. This was done
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy eight by a guy named Grant Allen,
Speaker 1: and he was investigating a thirty year old man with
Speaker 1: a neurological lesion that gave him this, as he referred
Speaker 1: to it then severe musical handicap um. And maybe some
Speaker 1: of you out there wondering right now, like I can
Speaker 1: relate to this, is this me? Well it could be
Speaker 1: a recent study found that out of a hundred people
Speaker 1: who self declared themselves as having a handicap for music,
Speaker 1: only twenty two So actually, exhibit did the traits of
Speaker 1: a musea after they were tested with a formal questionnaire
Speaker 1: and the way that this questionnaire worked. It tested your
Speaker 1: aptitude for scale, interval, and contour information as well as
Speaker 1: melodic organization dimension, rhythm and meter, and temporal organization dimension.
Speaker 1: They also tested memory recognition ability connected to music. Now,
Speaker 1: those who are tone deaf are generally unable to hear
Speaker 1: the differences in pitch and tone that the rest of
Speaker 1: us here we joke about this, right you know that
Speaker 1: there's always like uh, and I imagine with like movies
Speaker 1: like Pitch Perfect or TV shows like Glee, like there
Speaker 1: must be tons of joke about jokes about tone Definitely.
Speaker 1: It seems like every long running show ever has had
Speaker 1: at least an episode where, oh, it's the person who
Speaker 1: can't sing, but they don't realize they can't sing it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's a common enough of a thing that it
Speaker 1: shows up in some pop culture narrative and we all
Speaker 1: recognize it. Uh. We use the phrase really to describe
Speaker 1: people who don't understand simple commun unication strategies to write,
Speaker 1: like like even outside of it, we've turned into this
Speaker 1: metaphor for like, ah, well, he's tone deaf, so that's
Speaker 1: why he doesn't understand what we're talking about here. It's
Speaker 1: not even we're using it on a on a level
Speaker 1: beyond like its actual medical application. Right at its most extreme, though,
Speaker 1: people who are tone deaf are unable to even perceive
Speaker 1: music the same way that the rest of us do.
Speaker 1: And it comes down to an actual difference in their
Speaker 1: brain structure. Uh. And it's different from those like you know,
Speaker 1: Robert and myself for whom music comes naturally. Okay, it's
Speaker 1: actually defined as a learning disability. There's a team from
Speaker 1: the University of Montreal who have first published an empirical
Speaker 1: study on it, and that's their delineation. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: most children, and I didn't realize this, but this is
Speaker 1: probably a common experience for you. Most children learned to
Speaker 1: sing at the same time that they're learning to speak, right,
Speaker 1: so they're like kind of like singing words. Like I
Speaker 1: was a babysitting a friend of ours four year old
Speaker 1: the other night, and he was singing constantly. But then
Speaker 1: he would just kind of talk to himself too. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's my experience with my son Bastion is um. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of talking at this point
Speaker 1: he's four, but there's also a lot of singing. He
Speaker 1: will just burst into song about the silliest things, to
Speaker 1: the point we're just like, all right, you just you
Speaker 1: can't sing about butter anymore. I just just eat, don't
Speaker 1: play with the butter, and don't sing about the butter,
Speaker 1: just consumed. But well, that sounds like he is not
Speaker 1: tone deaf, because tone deaf children don't do this singing
Speaker 1: when they're younger. Uh. And this is where this this
Speaker 1: woman seems to be like the expert on this, Like
Speaker 1: every study I was looking at she was somehow involved in.
Speaker 1: Her name is Isabelle Perette's. And that's when she gave
Speaker 1: it the official disorder congenital amusia. It's innate in these
Speaker 1: people's brain, the lack of musical perception, and it's also hereditary. Uh.
Speaker 1: They found that congenital amusia is genetically transmitted. Thirty of
Speaker 1: the people who have first degree relatives with this cognitive
Speaker 1: disorder also have it. However, if you look at control groups,
Speaker 1: only three percent habit and control and control group families. However,
Speaker 1: congenital amusia doesn't seem to result from any particular family environment.
Speaker 1: It's not like, I don't know, uh, you can somehow
Speaker 1: connect it to like alcoholics or something like that. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be an environmental source that's causing this.
Speaker 1: It seems to be genetic. Remember, though genes don't specify
Speaker 1: cognitive function, they actually influence brain development. So the next
Speaker 1: step that these researchers are looking at is, let's identify
Speaker 1: the genes that relate to these neuroanatomical anomalies that are
Speaker 1: found in the brains of people who have amusia. Now, interestingly,
Speaker 1: that three percent control group almost lines up exactly with
Speaker 1: what they've found to be the percentage of people in
Speaker 1: the population who have it. Four percent seems to be
Speaker 1: the number of people in general population who are a music.
Speaker 1: They grow up with normal exposure to music and are
Speaker 1: otherwise capable of doing everything else everybody else does. They're intelligent,
Speaker 1: they're educated. This only affects their ability to recognize pitch
Speaker 1: in music, and it doesn't apply to language. This is
Speaker 1: the really fascinating part, right. The musics can process speech
Speaker 1: as well as environmental sounds like I don't know, like
Speaker 1: an animal's cry or something right, or voices. They can
Speaker 1: understand all of that. They can even understand the pitch
Speaker 1: changes in different languages like you know a little Chinese.
Speaker 1: I spent some time in China. You know how important
Speaker 1: pitch is to the difference in words. They're fine with that,
Speaker 1: but it's only with the music that they have this
Speaker 1: pitch problem. Well, it reminds me of some of the
Speaker 1: bits we we discussed earlier about how our brains process music,
Speaker 1: and the idea that your brain is processing its separately
Speaker 1: from the music itself, based on all of these other factors.
Speaker 1: So I guess it stands a reason someone with even
Speaker 1: you know, fairly significant um a musica here could still
Speaker 1: listen to say, a track with some really engaging lyrics,
Speaker 1: of course, and they're gonna get some sort of lyrical
Speaker 1: experience out of it. Yeah, and maybe maybe even something
Speaker 1: that is I'm thinking of some of the more some
Speaker 1: of the least musical music that I like, some of
Speaker 1: the more noise oriented stuff, Like maybe they could listen
Speaker 1: to that and appreciate that on some level that is
Speaker 1: not as tied to the music, but still somehow tied
Speaker 1: to a sonic experience of the thing. We are going
Speaker 1: to get back to that. Yeah, there's a there's uh
Speaker 1: a way that dissonance in particular plays into both regular
Speaker 1: music listening experience and a music listening experience. But there's
Speaker 1: actually some music acts that are recorded that are fluent
Speaker 1: in several languages, so this is it doesn't at all
Speaker 1: affect their other communicative abilities. Uh. And the way that
Speaker 1: they figured this out was they use these tests that
Speaker 1: were originally designed to assess the presence and specificity of
Speaker 1: musical disorders and patients with brand damage. The big one
Speaker 1: seems to be the difficulty in detecting bit related changes, right,
Speaker 1: especially when that extains into dissonance, which a musical subjects
Speaker 1: have little sensitivity too. So that's interesting, right. So Uh,
Speaker 1: people who love music. When you create music that has
Speaker 1: dissonance in it, when tones are playing over one another
Speaker 1: that don't match up the right way, and it just
Speaker 1: sounds like kind of white noise, some people hate that, right.
Speaker 1: Like I dated a girl once too. I remember putting
Speaker 1: on a record in a car and she just said,
Speaker 1: turn this off. It just sounds like insects. Uh. And
Speaker 1: she wasn't wrong, but she probably wasn't in music because
Speaker 1: they have very little sensitivity to dissonance. Okay, So I
Speaker 1: so one with this condition could very well be an
Speaker 1: exclusive fan of say like Nurse with Wound or early
Speaker 1: into New Boton, very like throw a xylophone down a
Speaker 1: hallway sort of music. That's what I'm kind of wondering
Speaker 1: is if like these experimental noise fans that are just
Speaker 1: super into it and that's all they listened to. I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could have a musia and not even
Speaker 1: know it because that's sort of your genre of choice. Um.
Speaker 1: It doesn't appear, unfortunately, to be something that can be
Speaker 1: quote unquote fixed either. Peretz's team has tried teaching kids
Speaker 1: with the musica to like music. Actually, they basically they
Speaker 1: gave them MP three players, and they said listen to
Speaker 1: this for thirty minutes a day. Not only did the
Speaker 1: kids fail to improve on their tests, but they how
Speaker 1: poorly they scored on the test correlated to how much
Speaker 1: they reported listening to the music. Um. So the next
Speaker 1: steps to to see if there's any kind of way
Speaker 1: to reverse this. Seemed to be some kind of remediation
Speaker 1: training programs that might improve pitch perception and memory. The
Speaker 1: very least, this will help us understand the neurological basis
Speaker 1: for this so that we can use it to diagnose
Speaker 1: other learning disorders. To you, so, what what's going on
Speaker 1: in the brain here? Right? Like, let's zoom in, take
Speaker 1: a look at the brain and figure out what exactly
Speaker 1: the deal is. Well, there's a study by a team
Speaker 1: in France and they used m EG scanners to figure
Speaker 1: this out. A music people's brains stem from delayed or
Speaker 1: impaired functioning in their frontal and auditory cortex. They also
Speaker 1: had physical abnormalities in those areas of the brain, with
Speaker 1: more gray matter and less white matter than usual. Now,
Speaker 1: this is something that's come up on the show a
Speaker 1: couple of times when we're talking about everything from brain
Speaker 1: disorders to drug usage. Right, Like that white gray matter
Speaker 1: balance seems to be pretty important again. People with music,
Speaker 1: they don't enjoy music, but they're capable of enjoying all
Speaker 1: the other pleasures the rest of us are. Right, It's
Speaker 1: not like they're dead inside, right, it's just this one area,
Speaker 1: and arguably an area that that certainly has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with their survival or ability to to move and
Speaker 1: enjoy life and and and partake of our culture. They're
Speaker 1: just not into the musical aspect of it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean they like food, they like money, they like sex.
Speaker 1: This has all been tracked in UH. There was a
Speaker 1: March six article in the Journal of Current Biology. They
Speaker 1: looked at this UM. So, Okay, we know it's innate
Speaker 1: or it's acquired. We know it prevents people from processing
Speaker 1: music the way they do. There's also another way to
Speaker 1: look at this, another terminology called specific musical and hedonia. UH.
Speaker 1: And this is what another studies authors called the inability
Speaker 1: to expla experience pleasure from music in general. So if
Speaker 1: a musia is the like disease, the extreme version where
Speaker 1: you can't appreciate music at all, is this specific musical
Speaker 1: and hedonia. And in their study they divided thirty people
Speaker 1: into three even groups, and they were asked to do
Speaker 1: what they called a music task, where they listened to
Speaker 1: classical pieces of music and then they rated them. Then
Speaker 1: they were asked to do a monetary incentive delay task.
Speaker 1: Basically the is gambling um and usually both would induce
Speaker 1: an emotional reaction in the brain. The researchers analyze the
Speaker 1: heart rate of their subjects and how much they perspired. Now,
Speaker 1: some were quote emotionally oblivious to music that they could
Speaker 1: tell what they were supposed to be feeling. So they
Speaker 1: heard the stuff they knew they were supposed to be
Speaker 1: having some kind of feeling, but their brain wasn't registering it.
Speaker 1: Their brain registered okay, there's some reward system in place.
Speaker 1: When I'm when they were playing around with the money
Speaker 1: and gambling, that was lighting up, but not when they're
Speaker 1: listening to music. So I'm wondering, this is just me
Speaker 1: here and maybe I'm way off, but do you think
Speaker 1: a museum can also affect a person's timing and tapping
Speaker 1: in terms of like fine motor control? Because I'm thinking, like,
Speaker 1: if you can't tap out a beat along to a song,
Speaker 1: would that affect your fine motor control in terms of
Speaker 1: like trying to find don't know, I'm thinking about like
Speaker 1: platform video games where you're trying to like jump from
Speaker 1: one thing to another at just the exact right time,
Speaker 1: sort of like it was like the old school platformers
Speaker 1: where they were just insanely difficult and you essentially had
Speaker 1: to know like the exact beats to hit the exact key.
Speaker 1: There's to that, right, And I'm wondering if that affects
Speaker 1: them as well, or like Simon game comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that would be a perfect example. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like they would just be unable to do Simon. I'm
Speaker 1: curious about that. Again, it comes down to like a
Speaker 1: small loss like Simon wouldn't be a big deal. But
Speaker 1: I would imagine if the fine motor control extended into
Speaker 1: other aspects of your life that might be difficult. I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly there was a time when like the predominant game
Speaker 1: video game was those insane platformers, and if you were
Speaker 1: not able to partake of those, I mean, you felt
Speaker 1: like you were missing out a little bit, Like I
Speaker 1: was just always kind of horrible at them, and I
Speaker 1: remember feeling a little left out like I had never
Speaker 1: beat Like I don't think I bade any of those
Speaker 1: old Nintendo games, and and I did feel like this
Speaker 1: or something something wrong with me that I haven't beat
Speaker 1: Super Mario Brothers too. I can sort of remember that, yeah,
Speaker 1: because especially like our generation, the way we played like
Speaker 1: we all would just huddle around the TV and the
Speaker 1: console right for hours at a time. I remember playing
Speaker 1: like Mega Man for like ten hours straight into the
Speaker 1: middle of the night with my buddies, and we would
Speaker 1: like switch off, right. But yeah, you would sort of
Speaker 1: get laughed at if you weren't as like, oh you
Speaker 1: can't make that one little jump? Come on, you know,
Speaker 1: thank god they got EASi here. Okay, So Robert tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit more about agnosia and how it's
Speaker 1: related to a musea. Well, agnosia in Greek means not
Speaker 1: knowing and um and if. From a broad standpoint, agnoja
Speaker 1: refers to a number of different neural disorders that basically
Speaker 1: in which the subject experience is an inability to inability
Speaker 1: to process different sensory information. Now what sort of information
Speaker 1: this varies a lot. Some experience and inability to recognize
Speaker 1: and identify objects or persons or aspects of objects or persons. Uh,
Speaker 1: the sense itself is not defective, however, it's just how
Speaker 1: you're processing it. So it's not that you can't hear,
Speaker 1: it's not that you can't see. It's there's no memory loss.
Speaker 1: And it might be limited to a single sense, it
Speaker 1: might be more than one. So what I immediately thought
Speaker 1: of here was all of our sacks famous study of
Speaker 1: the man who mistook his wife for a hat, which
Speaker 1: was about a guy who had a brain disorder and
Speaker 1: literally like couldn't perceive the difference between his wife when
Speaker 1: he saw her in his hat. Uh, And all of
Speaker 1: your Sacks was famous for doing all kinds of studies
Speaker 1: like this. But this that seems like maybe a more
Speaker 1: extreme version of agnosia. Well, there are a number of
Speaker 1: different versions of it that have been either officially or
Speaker 1: unofficially identified, So just a few here it There's there's
Speaker 1: finger agnosia. This is an inability to recognize the fingers
Speaker 1: of the hand. There's a more famous one, and certainly
Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks don't um study this one a good bed.
Speaker 1: And this is a prosopagnosia. This is face blindness. So
Speaker 1: you look at a face, it's not that you can't see,
Speaker 1: it's not even that you can't see a face. It's
Speaker 1: not like on that that wonderful episode of Hannibal, where
Speaker 1: it's like a swirly like blank thing. Right, It's it's
Speaker 1: not that as wonderful as that was visually in that show.
Speaker 1: It's not really what of facial face blindness is like.
Speaker 1: But still you you can't you look in at the face,
Speaker 1: You're seeing the face, but you can't really identify what's
Speaker 1: going on. You can't like put the markers together to
Speaker 1: identify it as being different from one face or another. Right,
Speaker 1: There's also a phone agnosia, which is voice blindness. There's
Speaker 1: time agnosia, which is an inability to interpret the passaging
Speaker 1: of time. And there's also semantic agnosia, and this is
Speaker 1: object blindness. And without being fresh on the details of
Speaker 1: the hat situation, that seems like that that would be
Speaker 1: the related classes. Probably, Yeah, And I have to say, um,
Speaker 1: and I have to bring this up in a bigeeki
Speaker 1: about it since I'm currently reading the latest book in
Speaker 1: our Scott Baker's Prince of Nothing. Yeah, you have told
Speaker 1: me about this numerous times, and so has a friend
Speaker 1: of the show, ec Steiner. Yeah, Yeah, I look forward
Speaker 1: to chatting about this latest book with Steiner because it's uh,
Speaker 1: the title is a Great Ordeal. But throughout the entire
Speaker 1: series there's this tragic, undying elder race known as the
Speaker 1: non Men. Okay, so they're like humans, but they're very
Speaker 1: alien in many respects. They've been around forever, they're they've
Speaker 1: had all these traumatic experiences, and there are a few
Speaker 1: different differences that like very notable differences between them and humans, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, they're you know, they're ghastly and pale, kind
Speaker 1: of google ish. They there Keith are all fused together.
Speaker 1: But the one that I've always found really fascinating was
Speaker 1: the revelation that they can't see paintings. Interesting, they deal
Speaker 1: almost exclusively with scroll dimensional three dimensional representations. That would
Speaker 1: would definitely work for Steiner since he's working. For those
Speaker 1: of you who don't know who we're talking about, this
Speaker 1: is a friend of ours who has actually done work
Speaker 1: for the show before, especially for our video series. Um
Speaker 1: he's worked with me on comic books before in two
Speaker 1: dimensional formats, but he actually sculpt it, like these huge
Speaker 1: set pieces that we used for the Monster Science series here.
Speaker 1: He did this wonderful Cathulu piece that we have here
Speaker 1: in the office, and uh, there's the giant cyclops skull
Speaker 1: that you can see in the background and a couple
Speaker 1: of those. So he's worked with us on the show before. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so maybe he's he himself is one of the
Speaker 1: non men um He might be. But I've seen people
Speaker 1: interpret this like painting blindness, if you will, and maybe
Speaker 1: it maybe it's something to do with oh well, they
Speaker 1: can't see colors, the color blindness. But I can't help
Speaker 1: but wonder if this is, uh, if this would be
Speaker 1: some sort of like painting agnosia. Certainly, our Stan Baker
Speaker 1: works so many neuroscientific and philosophical ideas to his work.
Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all of that was
Speaker 1: a partial inspiration for it. Okay, Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1: I that yeah. Yeah. But all of these conditions, the
Speaker 1: real ones that we've discussed here, there are examples where
Speaker 1: again you're the stimuli is entering through your senses, but
Speaker 1: then something is messed up, the wiring is crossed, there's
Speaker 1: there's something in many cases physically damaged in the brain
Speaker 1: that is permitting the proper processing of that stimula. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and where this enters the musical realm is auditory agnosia,
Speaker 1: and they're essentially two different versions. Here. There's classical auditory agnosia,
Speaker 1: which entails environmental sounds, so this would be like you
Speaker 1: hear a bird or a car, but you're unable to
Speaker 1: process exactly what that sound is. And then there is
Speaker 1: interpretive or acceptive agnosia, and this entails music and gets
Speaker 1: more into this, this idea of musical agnosia. I guess
Speaker 1: like here's a good point for me to probably clarify too,
Speaker 1: because I have this. I don't know about you, but um,
Speaker 1: I have a good bit of tenitis um from all
Speaker 1: my years going to shows, and even though I want
Speaker 1: ear plugs, yeah, I still hear that whistling at night
Speaker 1: and if everything's quiet, I just hear a high pitched
Speaker 1: wine all the time. Um. And this isn't that though, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's that's an actual like we actually have an
Speaker 1: episode of brain stuff about that, um, But that's part
Speaker 1: of your ear drum being affected and then connecting to
Speaker 1: your brain. This is totally different. This is just brain
Speaker 1: right now. In some of the case and we'll look
Speaker 1: at a couple of case studies here, uh in a minute.
Speaker 1: In some of those you do see like actual deftness
Speaker 1: occurring as well. But but yeah, for the most part,
Speaker 1: we're talking about the about not a physical hearing loss.
Speaker 1: So examples of this go back at least as far
Speaker 1: as nineteen o five. I was looking at some articles
Speaker 1: about this, and the reference a physician only referred to
Speaker 1: is Bond Vincini and another one by the name of
Speaker 1: Lammy L. A. M Y. And both of those, uh
Speaker 1: encountered individuals who who had difficulty with music so they
Speaker 1: could In the first one, the nineteen five case, the
Speaker 1: patient could still process musical information, but could no longer
Speaker 1: recognize well known tunes. Um he could pick out a
Speaker 1: wrong note in a famous tune, but he couldn't name
Speaker 1: that tune. And in the nineteen o seven case from
Speaker 1: Lammy L. A. M Y described a patient who could
Speaker 1: transcribe his national anthem but didn't know what it was.
Speaker 1: That's interesting, huh. And I'm assuming that given their names,
Speaker 1: they probably weren't transcribing the American national anthem, right. I
Speaker 1: think these were both, Uh at least said the first
Speaker 1: one was Italian. I'm not certain about Lamby. Again, I
Speaker 1: look to try and find some more information about these
Speaker 1: individuals as possible. That from motor head did something. Certainly
Speaker 1: those may be lost of time, alright. So the thing
Speaker 1: to keep in mind is there's a lot of variety.
Speaker 1: Here's an example two thousand and eleven a case that
Speaker 1: was reported by Zang Kaga and I. She of a
Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman with long term severe hydrocephalis.
Speaker 1: This is abnormal accumulation of cerebro spinal fluid in the brain,
Speaker 1: and this was due to congenital spina bifida. She gradually
Speaker 1: lost her hearing, but she experienced quote severe difficulty in
Speaker 1: distinguishing verbal, environmental, and musical instrument sounds as her hearing
Speaker 1: left her. She continued to enjoy music, however, and could
Speaker 1: she could because she could sense the rhythms by simply
Speaker 1: turning up the music allowed enough to feel the vibrations,
Speaker 1: and this allowed her to actually summon the memories of
Speaker 1: emotional associations that she had made with the music prior
Speaker 1: to her hearing loss. Okay, that's nice. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful. I mean it gets into this
Speaker 1: idea that we discussed earlier, that the brain is processing
Speaker 1: music in a few different ways, and if one of
Speaker 1: those bridges happens to break down. It doesn't mean, you know,
Speaker 1: the information can't get across, and the vibrations alone are
Speaker 1: enough to sort of trigger those emotional associations. Is interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you can also of course get into I don't
Speaker 1: think they got into it as much in the paper,
Speaker 1: but you know, you have you have instances where you
Speaker 1: can you can use hearing a devices that that that
Speaker 1: depend upon like vibrations in the skull as opposed to
Speaker 1: you know, straight up you know your drumstizations. Yeah. Now
Speaker 1: compare all of this to an earlier case. This was
Speaker 1: present in n in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, that
Speaker 1: of A and this was I think the case itself
Speaker 1: was first studied in the seventies, but it was a
Speaker 1: forty year old nurse referred to as c N who,
Speaker 1: following a series of surgeries at age thirty five to
Speaker 1: repair cerebral aneurysms in each of her temporal lobes, complained
Speaker 1: that she was no longer able to pick out the
Speaker 1: simplest overlearned tune, you know things, the tunes you should
Speaker 1: have known just by heart. So she no longer recognized
Speaker 1: tunes from her own record collection unless they had audible lyrics,
Speaker 1: which is, which is interesting. She can only identify them
Speaker 1: of the lyrics kicked in. So this is making me
Speaker 1: think of people. I listened to a lot of music
Speaker 1: that has unrecognizable lyrics, and I'm okay with that, but
Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who are like, how
Speaker 1: could you listen to that you don't know what they're saying.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's connected. I don't know, because maybe
Speaker 1: it's just an aesthetic preference. But I often think of
Speaker 1: in cases like that where you can't quite understand what
Speaker 1: the the the vocalist is saying. It's like Tom York
Speaker 1: comes to mind. Certainly some of the music a tool
Speaker 1: even or or um Sugares another act that comes to mind,
Speaker 1: where if I'm not even understanding exactly what's saying, or
Speaker 1: I'm only picking up on certain words, like the voice
Speaker 1: itself as a musical instrument. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was
Speaker 1: just mentioning this the other day to a friend of
Speaker 1: mine about Radio Ahead. But that's how I think of
Speaker 1: Tom York is less as a lyricist and more as
Speaker 1: like a vocal musical contributor, sort of like how Mike
Speaker 1: Patton does stuff with his voice and some his side
Speaker 1: projects like um, like Phantom Moss where he's not even
Speaker 1: really saying things, but he's just like using his voice
Speaker 1: as an instrument. Yeah, or like certainly we can all
Speaker 1: listen to music in different languages. We can listen to say,
Speaker 1: Mongolian throat singing and still enjoy it. Yeah. So the
Speaker 1: the the individual in question here, she had no problem
Speaker 1: understanding or communicating verbally, but music simply didn't register like
Speaker 1: it used to. Musical patterns found no purchase in her mind,
Speaker 1: and this made her a near perfect case of music agnosia.
Speaker 1: While and it sounds like there's an overlap there with
Speaker 1: a musa. So I wonder if, like um, the neurobiologists,
Speaker 1: they're really looking into this deeply, if there's just a
Speaker 1: terminology overlap here, or if there's some symptoms of agnosia
Speaker 1: and some symptoms of as a musea that separate them
Speaker 1: out as being totally different. I think that there is
Speaker 1: definite overlap here, because I have seen in some of
Speaker 1: the papers we're looking at they even you said even
Speaker 1: you used them interchangeably or said, this is also known
Speaker 1: as a musea. Though, and though there are plenty of cases,
Speaker 1: especially in the stuff we covered earlier where a musa
Speaker 1: is not describing agnosia and vice versa. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like that we need to do a lot more research
Speaker 1: on this and sort of better identify these categories. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe. I believe the experts in these areas are
Speaker 1: still trying to get firm ideas of what's going on,
Speaker 1: because certainly agnosia is a is a rarity compared to
Speaker 1: the more simpler versions of the music. Right, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can have a musa and okay, so maybe this is
Speaker 1: the difference. Amusia is the four percent of the population
Speaker 1: who are just toned deaf, whereas agnosia or the term
Speaker 1: that I was using earlier, me scroll back into the
Speaker 1: notes to find it specific musical and hedonia those sound
Speaker 1: like the the extreme version of it where you just
Speaker 1: don't process music at all, Right, And I think that's
Speaker 1: I think that's where we see the overlap. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: those conditions where we're talking, especially when we're talking about
Speaker 1: brain injuries UM, physical trauma to the brain, physical changes
Speaker 1: to the brain, the result in these symptoms. Now in
Speaker 1: the treatment of agnosia UM. The analogy I made earlier
Speaker 1: about the two bridges, that's ultimately where we see the
Speaker 1: main treatment or coping mechanisms, and that is that if
Speaker 1: one bridge is out, there are other bridges. There are
Speaker 1: other ways that we consume music, that we that we
Speaker 1: take music in and so we we see in various
Speaker 1: cases where it basically information is just presented in other
Speaker 1: modalities with that connect to the patients. So it's just
Speaker 1: a different way of connecting with the music. It's interesting
Speaker 1: that you use the term bridges because from what I
Speaker 1: can tell, the causes that lead to and these are
Speaker 1: the physical causes that lead to agnosia UM usually are
Speaker 1: around the occipito temporal border in the brain of the
Speaker 1: ventral stream right connecting parts of the brain together, the
Speaker 1: bridges between that that gets damaged, and this could be
Speaker 1: lesions on the parietal or temporal lobes. It can be
Speaker 1: produced from head injury or a stroke, or infection or
Speaker 1: carbon monoxide poisoning, all kinds of things, right, Um, But
Speaker 1: these lead to all the kinds of ignosia, not just
Speaker 1: the auditory ones we're talking about also visual and tactile
Speaker 1: that you know, we're focusing on auditory today, But that bridge,
Speaker 1: if that's severed, that's where that sense kind of goes. Hey,
Speaker 1: why are ye all right? So this is what I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: and this is what I'd like to see more research of,
Speaker 1: you know, leading us out for the future. What effects
Speaker 1: do a musia or agnosia have on other behaviors like
Speaker 1: we've we've seen okay, yes, these people understanding uh language,
Speaker 1: still right, and they're they're capable of being functional in
Speaker 1: society and working and being intelligent and educated. But what
Speaker 1: kind of personalities develop from a person who just doesn't
Speaker 1: have music in their life. It's a good question I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear from from any listeners on this. Certainly,
Speaker 1: the the data we were looking at in the papers
Speaker 1: we were reading, they seem, if anything, it seems like
Speaker 1: most of the time the researchers are surprised at how
Speaker 1: how well the individual does you know, so it's it
Speaker 1: I don't see a lot maybe in the more severe
Speaker 1: cases where it's affecting you know, greater sound agnosia in general,
Speaker 1: or or other types of of a stimulus coming into
Speaker 1: the brain, But for the most part, it doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to handicap them significantly. I mean, they're still able in
Speaker 1: many cases to enjoy music. The thing, the one area
Speaker 1: that is that is specifically affected. Yeah, I'm also wondering too,
Speaker 1: and please listeners chime in on this one as well.
Speaker 1: With the rise and popularity of podcasts, I wonder if
Speaker 1: that is an outlet for a muse as like there, Well,
Speaker 1: I don't like music, but these podcasts are great, so
Speaker 1: I'll just load up a bunch of these and listen
Speaker 1: to these all the time. I've certainly met people like that,
Speaker 1: the people who don't want to drive with music on,
Speaker 1: and then inevitably that they want to listen to something right,
Speaker 1: and they'll they'll go for a podcast, We'll go for
Speaker 1: a radio show, or like a book. Yeah, yeah, interesting, Okay, huh. Well,
Speaker 1: I like to balance back and forth between the two.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm in the mood for music, sometimes in the
Speaker 1: mood for a podcast or a book. But that's an interesting,
Speaker 1: interesting difference in experiences. Well, it seems like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of information that we can learn from you, the
Speaker 1: listeners out here about this. I mean, we're scratching the
Speaker 1: surface of this pretty much brand new discipline of research.
Speaker 1: So let us know what you think about it. I
Speaker 1: want to hear your your experiences. Maybe you've met people
Speaker 1: who don't like music at all, maybe you're one of
Speaker 1: those people, and maybe that's why you listen to the show. Um,
Speaker 1: so let us know. You can contact us in all
Speaker 1: the usual ways. We are on social media all over
Speaker 1: the place, Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. And then there's
Speaker 1: also our landing page, stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.
Speaker 1: That's where you're gonna find all the podcasts, all the
Speaker 1: videos we've made, and all of the articles, none of
Speaker 1: which are musical based. If you have a musea, you
Speaker 1: can consume them and be just fine. That's right. And hey,
Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us directly,
Speaker 1: as always, email us at blow the Mind at how
Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Well more on this and thousands
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com.
Speaker 1: Blow by blas Larger Towns is found by a bottle
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