1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, you, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Time to go into that old vault. And this is 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: going to be an episode from July that you actually 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: did with our old friend Christian Seger. Yeah, this episode 6 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: gets into the topic of a museum and some related 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: conditions in which an individual does not get music. And 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: I don't mean in the sense that, like you know, 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: they just don't get funk or they don't get this 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: particular genre. Don't understand why everybody likes Eric clapton solo career, right, 11 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea that music could just not be 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: connecting with certain brains, uh, the way that it does 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: with the rest of us, that sounds very interesting. I'm intrigued. 14 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Maybe I'll give it a listen. All right, well, let's 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: go ahead and dive into minds of musical emptiness. Welcome 16 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff Works 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Seger. Hey, Robert, 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,279 Speaker 1: have you ever met a person who doesn't like music? 20 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: I do not think I've ever met anyone who just 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 1: across the board doesn't like music. I've certainly met plenty 22 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: of people who seem to dislike music in certain scenarios 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: because I'm the kind of type of types of music, 24 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: you mean, well, types of music, but also music in 25 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: certain situations, like I've certainly known people who don't like 26 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: music while driving. I'm of the mindset I want music 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: on all the time, just about music of my own choose, 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: but music. I know a lot of our colleagues have 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: difficulty writing while there's music on. I don't have that problem, 30 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: although I do like sort of cultivate playlists of stuff 31 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: that helps me to write, you know, mostly instrumental stuff 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: that sometimes there's certain music that I can listen to 33 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: that has vocals that I can listen to all writing. 34 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, so you know, I know, like you like, 35 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:09,080 Speaker 1: I've known like various sort of iterations of people who 36 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,839 Speaker 1: can't listen to music during certain times. I've only met 37 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: like one or two people in my life who just don't. 38 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: They literally say I don't like music, and that's so alien, 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: so difficult for us to comprehend, because it's like hearing 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: someone say, oh, I don't I don't like food, Like 41 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: I don't like drinking liquids. It almost seems in human 42 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: in a way. And I think like when you hear that, 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,679 Speaker 1: at least in my experience, people will kind of think like, oh, 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: that's the trade of a psychopath, right, But it's not. 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: It's actually not. We've talked about psychopaths on the show 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: and that hasn't come up as one of the symptoms. 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: But also, as we're going to talk about today, this 48 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: is a real brain condition. Yeah, at least a couple 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: of different conditions we're going to discuss, and I think 50 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: they both serve to remind us just how tenuous our 51 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: sensory experience of the world really is. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, like, 52 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: think about you and me, right, Like, the audience probably 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: knows if they don't already, that you are really into 54 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: electronic music, and you cover it for stuff to blow 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: your mind, i'd say weekly, right, Yeah. And um, and I, 56 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: as many people have heard on other episodes, grew up 57 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: in the punkin metal scene and still listen to a 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: lot of that stuff, which a lot of people find 59 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: unlistenable and dissonant, including you know, my wife, and um, 60 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, but it's interesting because dissonance plays 61 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: into these diseases as well. Well, here's a quick question 62 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,919 Speaker 1: for you, and I think this helps to sort of 63 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: this helps a lot of us, uh try and comprehend 64 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: what some of these conditions are. Like, Like what what's 65 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: the type of music that you just really don't get 66 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: that you just you can't really listen to, you don't understand, 67 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: and and you're just willing to say, yeah, I that 68 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: is not from me usually like NPR style jazz. I 69 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: don't want to just say jazz in general, because there's 70 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: plenty of stuff that's being done in that area that's 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: interesting and I like, but like that kind of like 72 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: background elevator music jazz, you know what I mean? Like 73 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: that that drives me crazy. It's like fingers on a chalkboard. 74 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: For me. It's I have to say jazz as well. 75 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: And part of this could be I mean, the view 76 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: I guess is that jazz takes some getting used to. 77 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: You have to be you have to immerse yourself in it. 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: And I like some jazz, and I like jazzy elements 79 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: and some of the music I listened to from time 80 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: to time, But it's that jazzy jazz that spacey jazz 81 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,799 Speaker 1: that that completely unhinged jazz that just kind of gives 82 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: me the shape something. We think of this joke on 83 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: Parks and Rack. I don't know if you remember this, 84 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: but the their local MPR station, they had a show 85 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: and they would say jazz plus jazz equals jazz. Whenever 86 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: I hear something like that, I'm like nope. During the channel. 87 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: I often think about it that it's maybe like a 88 00:04:54,320 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: like a strong alcoholic property. You know, something strong liqueur 89 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: that you would never drink on your on its own, 90 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: but you would use in a recipe or you would 91 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: certainly used in using a mixed drink. So I often think, well, 92 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: that is that is the strong, undeluded stuff that is 93 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: not for me. Yeah, but you can put a like 94 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: a shot of it, or like I will. I don't 95 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: drink clearly so shots a lot, but you know a 96 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: little bit. It's like adding grenadine to your to your 97 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: soda or something like to drink and given a little flavor. Well, 98 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: like punk is is one of those things. I think 99 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: about this sometimes it's like pure punk. I've just it's 100 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: not my scene, it's not what I dig. But I 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: have certainly loved groups that have elements of punk in 102 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: their sound. They neither come out of punk or find 103 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: some of their musical genre to combine it with, Like 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: um oh the Poges come to mind. Yeah, like a 105 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: little bit of Irish music, a little bit of punk music. 106 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: It's really I would be hard pressed to want to 107 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: listen to Irish or punk music on their own, but 108 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: when these two come together, then I you know, I've 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: always enjoyed it. Yeah, No, I can definitely see that, 110 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: even like having spent many a year in basements watching 111 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: just like crusty punk bands just hammering out four chord songs. Uh, 112 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: I can understand where you're coming from, and that that 113 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: sort of has led to like what a lot of 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: our I guess, like popular alternative music is nowadays. Right, 115 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: it's sort of like a fusion of punk and jazz 116 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: or punkin metal, or where Joe and I were just 117 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: talking the other night about SKA like nineties and how 118 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: that was sort of something like that. Yeah. Well, okay, 119 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: enough about our musical interests, but so clearly we're human 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: beings who love music. We've got opinions about music. We 121 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: like to talk about it, we like to listen to it, 122 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: we go to shows um. But there's people out there 123 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: who don't. And it's not just because you know they don't, 124 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: they don't go to things like that, or they're just 125 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: not it's because there's literally something going on in their 126 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: brain that makes it so that they're incapable of enjoying music. Right, 127 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: something's wired differently, Some systems are online in a slightly 128 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: different array, and we will get into into these in 129 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: a moment, but before we do, without would be helpful 130 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: to just go ahead and give a nice overview of 131 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: the cognitive experience of music, just basically what's going on 132 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: when we process it. So music is of course a 133 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: deep part of our cognitive architecture. It changes our mood, 134 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: it heightens our emotions, it summons and banishes memories, It 135 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: affects the manner in which we preceive perceived time. Even 136 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: we can actually use it to treat illnesses of the 137 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: mind and body. So it's powerful stuff. It's potent stuff 138 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: that's not even just with human beings. There's been research 139 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: done on plants that music affects plants, so we're talking 140 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: about some serious magic here. There are parts of the 141 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: brain that respond to music that that don't respond to language. 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: There are separate parts of the brain that respond to melody, 143 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: to the melody of language, different than these different for 144 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: the parts of the brain the respond to the melody 145 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: of music, they're parts of the brain that deal with movement, attention, planning, 146 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: and memory, and these all respond to music even though 147 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: they don't have anything to do with the actual auditory process. 148 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on behind the scenes. Yeah, 149 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: and and we don't fully understand it yet. I mean, 150 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: I would say this research well, you know, we'll talk 151 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: about it later, but really, only in the last century 152 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: have we even been aware of this as a medical condition. 153 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: But only in maybe the last twenty or thirty years 154 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: has there been like real deep research into what this means. Yeah, 155 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and certainly there's a lot of wonderful research out there 156 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: about our relationship with music, and we can't cover it 157 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: all here, but just a couple of i think illuminating 158 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: studies to to touch on here. Um In in recent years, 159 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: we found that you can look to the brain via 160 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: f m R I, and specifically you can look at 161 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: brain activity in the nucleus incumbents. This is involved in 162 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: the formation of expectations, and we can actually tell if 163 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: a person is enjoying the music they're listening to. By 164 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: looking at at brain activity in this region, if it's 165 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: meeting their musical expectations and matching up with the stored 166 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: templates of what you've heard before, then you see stuff 167 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: light up. Um yeah, I could absolutely believe that given 168 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: my experience with music. Yeah, Like if you're just like A, 169 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like here's an example, Like I walk 170 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: around sometimes and I'll just have like my entire music 171 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: library on shuffle on my phone or something like that, 172 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: Like one like really great song for my high school 173 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: days will pop up, and it's like I can feel 174 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: like whatever those lights are that are going on in 175 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: my brain just activate, you know. Yeah. Yeah. The expectation 176 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: plays such an interesting role in our experiencing music because 177 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: on one hand, there's there's something that happens when a 178 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: when a melody or a tune or the lyrics take 179 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: you to that place you're expecting it to go. But 180 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: then also when it goes to a slightly different place 181 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: where it kind of you think it's going to turn 182 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: left and it turns right, like that animates you as well. 183 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: It's it's it's almost like narrative without words, really ah, yeah, 184 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: that's a really interesting way to put it. I um, 185 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: I'll just do a little bit of subjective experience here 186 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: to throw in here. I'm not like, personally a big 187 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: fan of The Cure, but a friend of mine is, 188 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: uh and if he's listening her, this is your story. 189 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: So The Cure just played in Atlanta recently, like I 190 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: think like two weeks ago. Did you know about this? 191 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I have. I have some friends who are 192 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: really they went to this show. So the way that 193 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: he told me was that, like, apparently this tour was 194 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: like you know, they're going to be playing all their 195 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: greatest hits or whatever, but that was sort of like 196 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: a different arrangement of the musical instruments. So he was 197 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: really excited because he's like, well, I'm gonna hear the 198 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: songs that I love, and it's gonna be played by 199 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: the guys who wrote them, but they're going to be 200 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: playing them in very different ways than I'm used to 201 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: and that's a wholly new experience. Oh yeah, I've had 202 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: that experience with I guess tool has been. It seems 203 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: like the kind of band that would do something like that. 204 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: They'll play with the intro on something and so the 205 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: live version, at first you're not sure what it's going 206 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: to be, but then then you realize, oh, it's it's 207 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: this track, it's that track, whatever the particular track may be. 208 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: And there's this, you know, a physical experience of excitement 209 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: to when I was, you know, still involved in the 210 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: music scening just go into a lot of shows. The 211 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: thing that was always the most impressive to me, and 212 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: that just showed like a real class act, professional touring band, 213 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: was when they could play an entire set without stopping, 214 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: Like they would just start and their songs. They had 215 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: figured out ways to weave their songs in and out 216 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: of one another, so they would just play like a 217 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: really tight thirty forty minutes set and then boom they 218 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 1: were done, got off on stage. And that is the 219 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: kind of thing that just floors you. It's just like 220 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: you don't have time to stop and breathe and kind 221 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,959 Speaker 1: of judge them, uh for other factors like whatever they're wearing, 222 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: or what they say in between songs or something. You're 223 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: just like bombarded. Well, that's one of the reasons that 224 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: I've been so into DJ mixes over the years that, uh, 225 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: it's not quite the same as a as a band 226 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: performing the entire set without stop. But this the idea 227 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: that you can take various musical elements and and a 228 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: talented DJ can create a seamless tapestry of sound. I 229 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: love that, and certainly you get those six surprises. Those 230 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: expectations net Or skewed throughout that sonic narrative as well. 231 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: So all right, we're clearly establishing that we're music nerds. 232 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: We love music, and whatever parts of the brain that 233 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: don't work for for some of these people, they're they're 234 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: lighting up like fireworks for us. Now. Another key point, though, 235 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: is certainly you've been to a concert or performance and 236 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: you've been experiencing the music, and maybe you've seen somebody 237 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 1: like clearly their significant other drug them here and they're 238 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: not enjoying it, or they got When you said drugged them, 239 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: I thought like ruderally gave them drugs so that they 240 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: would just sit put. But yeah, that's that's that's possible, 241 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: depending on the because I've seen you both. Yeah, so 242 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: you've seen people that are not into it, or they're 243 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: they don't they're clearly the first time, or maybe they 244 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: you don't feel like they could possibly be enjoying the 245 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: music on the same level as you are. Yeah, possibly 246 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: and certainly like and I have to applaud my wife again, 247 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: like she's indulged me by you know, sometimes I can't 248 00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: get a friend to go with me to a particular 249 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: kind of thing. She's like, all right, you know, let's 250 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: I'll go with you. You know, we'll go see Converge 251 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: and High on Fire. And she's just sitting there like 252 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: shaking her head while I'm like really into it, you know, Um, 253 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,679 Speaker 1: so yeah, I get that. Well. It's interesting because despite 254 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: all of our very musical taste, in our varying levels 255 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: of engagement with particular types of music, particular performances, the 256 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: brain experiences that we have are actually pretty consistent among 257 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: most people. There was a two thousand thirteen study publishing 258 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: the European Journal of Euroscience, and they found that if 259 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: two people listened to the same track, one inexperienced fan 260 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: of the music and another not the other one just 261 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: like a newcomer, you know, there's been dragged in there 262 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: by their spouse, you're still going to see the same 263 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: synchronization in several key brain areas and similar brain activity. 264 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: So as much as you you know, might like to 265 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: think you're experiencing your favorite band and an entirely different 266 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: cognitive level than the you know, the dumb guy next 267 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: to you with the glories on his fingers. Um, that 268 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be quite the case. We're still engaging 269 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: like the same networks. I wonder if this is similar 270 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: to like research that's been done on depression and anxiety 271 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: in that like, Um, the more you listen to the 272 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: songs over and over again, right, Like, it's maybe it's 273 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: like a like writing over the same pathway of the 274 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: brain over and over and over again, so it makes 275 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: it easier for that experience to happen. It's happening in 276 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: the same way for everybody, but it's just kind of 277 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: going through the brain. I don't know how to describe 278 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: this other than with like road metaphors, right, Like, it's 279 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: like going down the same road, but it's just like 280 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: going down faster for for us or something an expectation, 281 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: right yeah, where the road is going to turn, where 282 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: it's gonna split, etcetera. Yeah, interesting, huh. I wonder if 283 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,479 Speaker 1: anybody's done research on that, Like the the the experience 284 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: of having music encoded to the brain as being similar 285 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: to the sort of expectations that encode anxiety into people. Yeah, 286 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: we'll have to follow up on that, because I know 287 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: there have been a number of studies that have looked into, 288 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: you know, the potential therapeutic aspects of music as well 289 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: as the role of music and in various emotional states. Yeah. Right, 290 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: and you think about it, like some of the emotional 291 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: states that are created by listening to music have very 292 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: similar symptoms to anxiety. Huh. All right, maybe that's a 293 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: future episode. We'll have to dig deep for that one. 294 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: But let's take a quick break and then when we 295 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about the condition of 296 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: a musia or tone deafness. All right, we're back. So 297 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: this first one, tone deaf deafness amusia. I feel like 298 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: this is going to be the one where we're going 299 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: to see far more listeners who can share experiences with this. Certainly, 300 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: we've probably all encountered people with varying levels of tone 301 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: deafness over the years, and it seems like tone deafness 302 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: has variations on it, like extremes or you know, some 303 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: people have it to to less an extent than others. 304 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: The term congenital amusia is what we use to denote 305 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: tone deafness that you're born with. It's been described in 306 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: medical literature for more than a century, and it manifests 307 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: basically as a severe deficiency in processing pitch variations. Now 308 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: this extends to impairments in musical memory and recognition, as 309 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: well as what we traditionally think of his tone deafness 310 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: as like bad singing or the inability to tap in 311 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: time with music. Right. Um, everybody's right now is probably 312 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 1: thinking of like the person who I don't know was 313 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: inquired or something like they just couldn't hit the notes. Yeah. Um. 314 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: Some literature also refers to a musia as dis melodia 315 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: or dismusia, but the term amusia is generally agreed to 316 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: be preferable because it acknowledged just the possibility that there 317 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: exists as many forms of congenital amusias as there are 318 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: forms of acquired amusias. And what I mean by that 319 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: is accidental brain damage, So you can hurt yourself a 320 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: variety of ways that will also produce this effect. Now, 321 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: to clarify, congenital means present from birth, but it is 322 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: possible to acquire a musia through brain damage in life. 323 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: The very first study that looked at. This was done 324 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy eight by a guy named Grant Allen, 325 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: and he was investigating a thirty year old man with 326 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: a neurological lesion that gave him this, as he referred 327 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: to it then severe musical handicap um. And maybe some 328 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: of you out there wondering right now, like I can 329 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: relate to this, is this me? Well it could be 330 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: a recent study found that out of a hundred people 331 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: who self declared themselves as having a handicap for music, 332 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: only twenty two So actually, exhibit did the traits of 333 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: a musea after they were tested with a formal questionnaire 334 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: and the way that this questionnaire worked. It tested your 335 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: aptitude for scale, interval, and contour information as well as 336 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: melodic organization dimension, rhythm and meter, and temporal organization dimension. 337 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: They also tested memory recognition ability connected to music. Now, 338 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: those who are tone deaf are generally unable to hear 339 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: the differences in pitch and tone that the rest of 340 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: us here we joke about this, right you know that 341 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: there's always like uh, and I imagine with like movies 342 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,199 Speaker 1: like Pitch Perfect or TV shows like Glee, like there 343 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: must be tons of joke about jokes about tone Definitely. 344 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: It seems like every long running show ever has had 345 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: at least an episode where, oh, it's the person who 346 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: can't sing, but they don't realize they can't sing it. Yeah. 347 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: So it's a common enough of a thing that it 348 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: shows up in some pop culture narrative and we all 349 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: recognize it. Uh. We use the phrase really to describe 350 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 1: people who don't understand simple commun unication strategies to write, 351 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: like like even outside of it, we've turned into this 352 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: metaphor for like, ah, well, he's tone deaf, so that's 353 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: why he doesn't understand what we're talking about here. It's 354 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: not even we're using it on a on a level 355 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: beyond like its actual medical application. Right at its most extreme, though, 356 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: people who are tone deaf are unable to even perceive 357 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 1: music the same way that the rest of us do. 358 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: And it comes down to an actual difference in their 359 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: brain structure. Uh. And it's different from those like you know, 360 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: Robert and myself for whom music comes naturally. Okay, it's 361 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: actually defined as a learning disability. There's a team from 362 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: the University of Montreal who have first published an empirical 363 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: study on it, and that's their delineation. So, for instance, 364 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: most children, and I didn't realize this, but this is 365 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: probably a common experience for you. Most children learned to 366 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: sing at the same time that they're learning to speak, right, 367 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 1: so they're like kind of like singing words. Like I 368 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: was a babysitting a friend of ours four year old 369 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: the other night, and he was singing constantly. But then 370 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: he would just kind of talk to himself too. Oh yeah, 371 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: that's my experience with my son Bastion is um. There's 372 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of talking at this point 373 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: he's four, but there's also a lot of singing. He 374 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: will just burst into song about the silliest things, to 375 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: the point we're just like, all right, you just you 376 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: can't sing about butter anymore. I just just eat, don't 377 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: play with the butter, and don't sing about the butter, 378 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: just consumed. But well, that sounds like he is not 379 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: tone deaf, because tone deaf children don't do this singing 380 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: when they're younger. Uh. And this is where this this 381 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: woman seems to be like the expert on this, Like 382 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: every study I was looking at she was somehow involved in. 383 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 1: Her name is Isabelle Perette's. And that's when she gave 384 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: it the official disorder congenital amusia. It's innate in these 385 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: people's brain, the lack of musical perception, and it's also hereditary. Uh. 386 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: They found that congenital amusia is genetically transmitted. Thirty of 387 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: the people who have first degree relatives with this cognitive 388 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: disorder also have it. However, if you look at control groups, 389 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: only three percent habit and control and control group families. However, 390 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: congenital amusia doesn't seem to result from any particular family environment. 391 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: It's not like, I don't know, uh, you can somehow 392 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: connect it to like alcoholics or something like that. Right, Like, 393 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: there doesn't seem to be an environmental source that's causing this. 394 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: It seems to be genetic. Remember, though genes don't specify 395 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: cognitive function, they actually influence brain development. So the next 396 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: step that these researchers are looking at is, let's identify 397 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: the genes that relate to these neuroanatomical anomalies that are 398 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: found in the brains of people who have amusia. Now, interestingly, 399 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: that three percent control group almost lines up exactly with 400 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: what they've found to be the percentage of people in 401 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: the population who have it. Four percent seems to be 402 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: the number of people in general population who are a music. 403 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: They grow up with normal exposure to music and are 404 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: otherwise capable of doing everything else everybody else does. They're intelligent, 405 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: they're educated. This only affects their ability to recognize pitch 406 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: in music, and it doesn't apply to language. This is 407 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: the really fascinating part, right. The musics can process speech 408 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: as well as environmental sounds like I don't know, like 409 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: an animal's cry or something right, or voices. They can 410 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: understand all of that. They can even understand the pitch 411 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 1: changes in different languages like you know a little Chinese. 412 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: I spent some time in China. You know how important 413 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: pitch is to the difference in words. They're fine with that, 414 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: but it's only with the music that they have this 415 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: pitch problem. Well, it reminds me of some of the 416 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: bits we we discussed earlier about how our brains process music, 417 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: and the idea that your brain is processing its separately 418 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: from the music itself, based on all of these other factors. 419 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: So I guess it stands a reason someone with even 420 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: you know, fairly significant um a musica here could still 421 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 1: listen to say, a track with some really engaging lyrics, 422 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: of course, and they're gonna get some sort of lyrical 423 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: experience out of it. Yeah, and maybe maybe even something 424 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: that is I'm thinking of some of the more some 425 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: of the least musical music that I like, some of 426 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: the more noise oriented stuff, Like maybe they could listen 427 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: to that and appreciate that on some level that is 428 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: not as tied to the music, but still somehow tied 429 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: to a sonic experience of the thing. We are going 430 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: to get back to that. Yeah, there's a there's uh 431 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: a way that dissonance in particular plays into both regular 432 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: music listening experience and a music listening experience. But there's 433 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: actually some music acts that are recorded that are fluent 434 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: in several languages, so this is it doesn't at all 435 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: affect their other communicative abilities. Uh. And the way that 436 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: they figured this out was they use these tests that 437 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: were originally designed to assess the presence and specificity of 438 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: musical disorders and patients with brand damage. The big one 439 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: seems to be the difficulty in detecting bit related changes, right, 440 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: especially when that extains into dissonance, which a musical subjects 441 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: have little sensitivity too. So that's interesting, right. So Uh, 442 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: people who love music. When you create music that has 443 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: dissonance in it, when tones are playing over one another 444 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: that don't match up the right way, and it just 445 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: sounds like kind of white noise, some people hate that, right. 446 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: Like I dated a girl once too. I remember putting 447 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: on a record in a car and she just said, 448 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: turn this off. It just sounds like insects. Uh. And 449 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: she wasn't wrong, but she probably wasn't in music because 450 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: they have very little sensitivity to dissonance. Okay, So I 451 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: so one with this condition could very well be an 452 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: exclusive fan of say like Nurse with Wound or early 453 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: into New Boton, very like throw a xylophone down a 454 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: hallway sort of music. That's what I'm kind of wondering 455 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: is if like these experimental noise fans that are just 456 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: super into it and that's all they listened to. I 457 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: wonder if you could have a musia and not even 458 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: know it because that's sort of your genre of choice. Um. 459 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: It doesn't appear, unfortunately, to be something that can be 460 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: quote unquote fixed either. Peretz's team has tried teaching kids 461 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: with the musica to like music. Actually, they basically they 462 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: gave them MP three players, and they said listen to 463 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: this for thirty minutes a day. Not only did the 464 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: kids fail to improve on their tests, but they how 465 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: poorly they scored on the test correlated to how much 466 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: they reported listening to the music. Um. So the next 467 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: steps to to see if there's any kind of way 468 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: to reverse this. Seemed to be some kind of remediation 469 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: training programs that might improve pitch perception and memory. The 470 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: very least, this will help us understand the neurological basis 471 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: for this so that we can use it to diagnose 472 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: other learning disorders. To you, so, what what's going on 473 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: in the brain here? Right? Like, let's zoom in, take 474 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: a look at the brain and figure out what exactly 475 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the deal is. Well, there's a study by a team 476 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: in France and they used m EG scanners to figure 477 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: this out. A music people's brains stem from delayed or 478 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: impaired functioning in their frontal and auditory cortex. They also 479 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: had physical abnormalities in those areas of the brain, with 480 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: more gray matter and less white matter than usual. Now, 481 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: this is something that's come up on the show a 482 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: couple of times when we're talking about everything from brain 483 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: disorders to drug usage. Right, Like that white gray matter 484 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: balance seems to be pretty important again. People with music, 485 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: they don't enjoy music, but they're capable of enjoying all 486 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: the other pleasures the rest of us are. Right, It's 487 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: not like they're dead inside, right, it's just this one area, 488 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: and arguably an area that that certainly has nothing to 489 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: do with their survival or ability to to move and 490 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: enjoy life and and and partake of our culture. They're 491 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: just not into the musical aspect of it. Yeah, I 492 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: mean they like food, they like money, they like sex. 493 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: This has all been tracked in UH. There was a 494 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: March six article in the Journal of Current Biology. They 495 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: looked at this UM. So, Okay, we know it's innate 496 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: or it's acquired. We know it prevents people from processing 497 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: music the way they do. There's also another way to 498 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: look at this, another terminology called specific musical and hedonia. UH. 499 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: And this is what another studies authors called the inability 500 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: to expla experience pleasure from music in general. So if 501 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: a musia is the like disease, the extreme version where 502 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: you can't appreciate music at all, is this specific musical 503 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: and hedonia. And in their study they divided thirty people 504 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: into three even groups, and they were asked to do 505 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: what they called a music task, where they listened to 506 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: classical pieces of music and then they rated them. Then 507 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: they were asked to do a monetary incentive delay task. 508 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: Basically the is gambling um and usually both would induce 509 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: an emotional reaction in the brain. The researchers analyze the 510 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: heart rate of their subjects and how much they perspired. Now, 511 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: some were quote emotionally oblivious to music that they could 512 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 1: tell what they were supposed to be feeling. So they 513 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: heard the stuff they knew they were supposed to be 514 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: having some kind of feeling, but their brain wasn't registering it. 515 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: Their brain registered okay, there's some reward system in place. 516 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: When I'm when they were playing around with the money 517 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: and gambling, that was lighting up, but not when they're 518 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: listening to music. So I'm wondering, this is just me 519 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: here and maybe I'm way off, but do you think 520 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: a museum can also affect a person's timing and tapping 521 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: in terms of like fine motor control? Because I'm thinking, like, 522 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: if you can't tap out a beat along to a song, 523 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: would that affect your fine motor control in terms of 524 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: like trying to find don't know, I'm thinking about like 525 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: platform video games where you're trying to like jump from 526 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: one thing to another at just the exact right time, 527 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: sort of like it was like the old school platformers 528 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: where they were just insanely difficult and you essentially had 529 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: to know like the exact beats to hit the exact key. 530 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: There's to that, right, And I'm wondering if that affects 531 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: them as well, or like Simon game comes to mind. 532 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that would be a perfect example. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 533 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: like they would just be unable to do Simon. I'm 534 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: curious about that. Again, it comes down to like a 535 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: small loss like Simon wouldn't be a big deal. But 536 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: I would imagine if the fine motor control extended into 537 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: other aspects of your life that might be difficult. I mean, 538 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: certainly there was a time when like the predominant game 539 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: video game was those insane platformers, and if you were 540 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: not able to partake of those, I mean, you felt 541 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: like you were missing out a little bit, Like I 542 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: was just always kind of horrible at them, and I 543 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: remember feeling a little left out like I had never 544 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: beat Like I don't think I bade any of those 545 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: old Nintendo games, and and I did feel like this 546 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: or something something wrong with me that I haven't beat 547 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: Super Mario Brothers too. I can sort of remember that, yeah, 548 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: because especially like our generation, the way we played like 549 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: we all would just huddle around the TV and the 550 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: console right for hours at a time. I remember playing 551 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: like Mega Man for like ten hours straight into the 552 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: middle of the night with my buddies, and we would 553 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: like switch off, right. But yeah, you would sort of 554 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: get laughed at if you weren't as like, oh you 555 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: can't make that one little jump? Come on, you know, 556 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: thank god they got EASi here. Okay, So Robert tell 557 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about agnosia and how it's 558 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: related to a musea. Well, agnosia in Greek means not 559 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: knowing and um and if. From a broad standpoint, agnoja 560 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: refers to a number of different neural disorders that basically 561 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: in which the subject experience is an inability to inability 562 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: to process different sensory information. Now what sort of information 563 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: this varies a lot. Some experience and inability to recognize 564 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: and identify objects or persons or aspects of objects or persons. Uh, 565 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: the sense itself is not defective, however, it's just how 566 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: you're processing it. So it's not that you can't hear, 567 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: it's not that you can't see. It's there's no memory loss. 568 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: And it might be limited to a single sense, it 569 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: might be more than one. So what I immediately thought 570 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: of here was all of our sacks famous study of 571 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: the man who mistook his wife for a hat, which 572 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: was about a guy who had a brain disorder and 573 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: literally like couldn't perceive the difference between his wife when 574 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: he saw her in his hat. Uh, And all of 575 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: your Sacks was famous for doing all kinds of studies 576 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: like this. But this that seems like maybe a more 577 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: extreme version of agnosia. Well, there are a number of 578 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: different versions of it that have been either officially or 579 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: unofficially identified, So just a few here it There's there's 580 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: finger agnosia. This is an inability to recognize the fingers 581 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: of the hand. There's a more famous one, and certainly 582 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks don't um study this one a good bed. 583 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: And this is a prosopagnosia. This is face blindness. So 584 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: you look at a face, it's not that you can't see, 585 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: it's not even that you can't see a face. It's 586 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: not like on that that wonderful episode of Hannibal, where 587 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: it's like a swirly like blank thing. Right, It's it's 588 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: not that as wonderful as that was visually in that show. 589 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 1: It's not really what of facial face blindness is like. 590 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: But still you you can't you look in at the face, 591 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: You're seeing the face, but you can't really identify what's 592 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: going on. You can't like put the markers together to 593 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: identify it as being different from one face or another. Right, 594 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: There's also a phone agnosia, which is voice blindness. There's 595 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: time agnosia, which is an inability to interpret the passaging 596 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: of time. And there's also semantic agnosia, and this is 597 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: object blindness. And without being fresh on the details of 598 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: the hat situation, that seems like that that would be 599 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: the related classes. Probably, Yeah, And I have to say, um, 600 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: and I have to bring this up in a bigeeki 601 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: about it since I'm currently reading the latest book in 602 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: our Scott Baker's Prince of Nothing. Yeah, you have told 603 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: me about this numerous times, and so has a friend 604 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: of the show, ec Steiner. Yeah, Yeah, I look forward 605 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: to chatting about this latest book with Steiner because it's uh, 606 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: the title is a Great Ordeal. But throughout the entire 607 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: series there's this tragic, undying elder race known as the 608 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: non Men. Okay, so they're like humans, but they're very 609 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: alien in many respects. They've been around forever, they're they've 610 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: had all these traumatic experiences, and there are a few 611 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: different differences that like very notable differences between them and humans, like, 612 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,479 Speaker 1: for instance, they're you know, they're ghastly and pale, kind 613 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: of google ish. They there Keith are all fused together. 614 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: But the one that I've always found really fascinating was 615 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: the revelation that they can't see paintings. Interesting, they deal 616 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: almost exclusively with scroll dimensional three dimensional representations. That would 617 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: would definitely work for Steiner since he's working. For those 618 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: of you who don't know who we're talking about, this 619 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: is a friend of ours who has actually done work 620 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: for the show before, especially for our video series. Um 621 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: he's worked with me on comic books before in two 622 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: dimensional formats, but he actually sculpt it, like these huge 623 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: set pieces that we used for the Monster Science series here. 624 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: He did this wonderful Cathulu piece that we have here 625 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: in the office, and uh, there's the giant cyclops skull 626 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: that you can see in the background and a couple 627 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: of those. So he's worked with us on the show before. Yeah, 628 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: and so maybe he's he himself is one of the 629 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: non men um He might be. But I've seen people 630 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: interpret this like painting blindness, if you will, and maybe 631 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: it maybe it's something to do with oh well, they 632 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: can't see colors, the color blindness. But I can't help 633 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: but wonder if this is, uh, if this would be 634 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: some sort of like painting agnosia. Certainly, our Stan Baker 635 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: works so many neuroscientific and philosophical ideas to his work. 636 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all of that was 637 00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: a partial inspiration for it. Okay, Yeah, I like that. 638 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: I that yeah. Yeah. But all of these conditions, the 639 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: real ones that we've discussed here, there are examples where 640 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: again you're the stimuli is entering through your senses, but 641 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: then something is messed up, the wiring is crossed, there's 642 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: there's something in many cases physically damaged in the brain 643 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: that is permitting the proper processing of that stimula. Yeah, 644 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: and where this enters the musical realm is auditory agnosia, 645 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: and they're essentially two different versions. Here. There's classical auditory agnosia, 646 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: which entails environmental sounds, so this would be like you 647 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: hear a bird or a car, but you're unable to 648 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: process exactly what that sound is. And then there is 649 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: interpretive or acceptive agnosia, and this entails music and gets 650 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: more into this, this idea of musical agnosia. I guess 651 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: like here's a good point for me to probably clarify too, 652 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: because I have this. I don't know about you, but um, 653 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: I have a good bit of tenitis um from all 654 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,479 Speaker 1: my years going to shows, and even though I want 655 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: ear plugs, yeah, I still hear that whistling at night 656 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: and if everything's quiet, I just hear a high pitched 657 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 1: wine all the time. Um. And this isn't that though, right, 658 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: Like that's that's an actual like we actually have an 659 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: episode of brain stuff about that, um, But that's part 660 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: of your ear drum being affected and then connecting to 661 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: your brain. This is totally different. This is just brain 662 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: right now. In some of the case and we'll look 663 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: at a couple of case studies here, uh in a minute. 664 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: In some of those you do see like actual deftness 665 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 1: occurring as well. But but yeah, for the most part, 666 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about the about not a physical hearing loss. 667 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: So examples of this go back at least as far 668 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: as nineteen o five. I was looking at some articles 669 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: about this, and the reference a physician only referred to 670 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: is Bond Vincini and another one by the name of 671 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: Lammy L. A. M Y. And both of those, uh 672 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: encountered individuals who who had difficulty with music so they 673 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: could In the first one, the nineteen five case, the 674 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 1: patient could still process musical information, but could no longer 675 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 1: recognize well known tunes. Um he could pick out a 676 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: wrong note in a famous tune, but he couldn't name 677 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: that tune. And in the nineteen o seven case from 678 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: Lammy L. A. M Y described a patient who could 679 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: transcribe his national anthem but didn't know what it was. 680 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: That's interesting, huh. And I'm assuming that given their names, 681 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: they probably weren't transcribing the American national anthem, right. I 682 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: think these were both, Uh at least said the first 683 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: one was Italian. I'm not certain about Lamby. Again, I 684 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: look to try and find some more information about these 685 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 1: individuals as possible. That from motor head did something. Certainly 686 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: those may be lost of time, alright. So the thing 687 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is there's a lot of variety. 688 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: Here's an example two thousand and eleven a case that 689 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: was reported by Zang Kaga and I. She of a 690 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: twenty seven year old woman with long term severe hydrocephalis. 691 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: This is abnormal accumulation of cerebro spinal fluid in the brain, 692 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: and this was due to congenital spina bifida. She gradually 693 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 1: lost her hearing, but she experienced quote severe difficulty in 694 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: distinguishing verbal, environmental, and musical instrument sounds as her hearing 695 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: left her. She continued to enjoy music, however, and could 696 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 1: she could because she could sense the rhythms by simply 697 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: turning up the music allowed enough to feel the vibrations, 698 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: and this allowed her to actually summon the memories of 699 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: emotional associations that she had made with the music prior 700 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: to her hearing loss. Okay, that's nice. Yeah, I think 701 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of beautiful. I mean it gets into this 702 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: idea that we discussed earlier, that the brain is processing 703 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: music in a few different ways, and if one of 704 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 1: those bridges happens to break down. It doesn't mean, you know, 705 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: the information can't get across, and the vibrations alone are 706 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: enough to sort of trigger those emotional associations. Is interesting. Yeah, 707 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: and you can also of course get into I don't 708 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: think they got into it as much in the paper, 709 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: but you know, you have you have instances where you 710 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: can you can use hearing a devices that that that 711 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: depend upon like vibrations in the skull as opposed to 712 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: you know, straight up you know your drumstizations. Yeah. Now 713 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: compare all of this to an earlier case. This was 714 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: present in n in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, that 715 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: of A and this was I think the case itself 716 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: was first studied in the seventies, but it was a 717 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: forty year old nurse referred to as c N who, 718 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,840 Speaker 1: following a series of surgeries at age thirty five to 719 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: repair cerebral aneurysms in each of her temporal lobes, complained 720 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: that she was no longer able to pick out the 721 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: simplest overlearned tune, you know things, the tunes you should 722 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: have known just by heart. So she no longer recognized 723 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: tunes from her own record collection unless they had audible lyrics, 724 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: which is, which is interesting. She can only identify them 725 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: of the lyrics kicked in. So this is making me 726 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 1: think of people. I listened to a lot of music 727 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: that has unrecognizable lyrics, and I'm okay with that, but 728 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who are like, how 729 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 1: could you listen to that you don't know what they're saying. 730 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's connected. I don't know, because maybe 731 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: it's just an aesthetic preference. But I often think of 732 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,359 Speaker 1: in cases like that where you can't quite understand what 733 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: the the the vocalist is saying. It's like Tom York 734 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: comes to mind. Certainly some of the music a tool 735 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: even or or um Sugares another act that comes to mind, 736 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: where if I'm not even understanding exactly what's saying, or 737 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: I'm only picking up on certain words, like the voice 738 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: itself as a musical instrument. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I was 739 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: just mentioning this the other day to a friend of 740 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: mine about Radio Ahead. But that's how I think of 741 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: Tom York is less as a lyricist and more as 742 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: like a vocal musical contributor, sort of like how Mike 743 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: Patton does stuff with his voice and some his side 744 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 1: projects like um, like Phantom Moss where he's not even 745 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: really saying things, but he's just like using his voice 746 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: as an instrument. Yeah, or like certainly we can all 747 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: listen to music in different languages. We can listen to say, 748 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:16,919 Speaker 1: Mongolian throat singing and still enjoy it. Yeah. So the 749 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: the the individual in question here, she had no problem 750 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: understanding or communicating verbally, but music simply didn't register like 751 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: it used to. Musical patterns found no purchase in her mind, 752 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,799 Speaker 1: and this made her a near perfect case of music agnosia. 753 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: While and it sounds like there's an overlap there with 754 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: a musa. So I wonder if, like um, the neurobiologists, 755 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: they're really looking into this deeply, if there's just a 756 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: terminology overlap here, or if there's some symptoms of agnosia 757 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,160 Speaker 1: and some symptoms of as a musea that separate them 758 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: out as being totally different. I think that there is 759 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: definite overlap here, because I have seen in some of 760 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: the papers we're looking at they even you said even 761 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: you used them interchangeably or said, this is also known 762 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: as a musea. Though, and though there are plenty of cases, 763 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: especially in the stuff we covered earlier where a musa 764 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: is not describing agnosia and vice versa. So it sounds 765 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: like that we need to do a lot more research 766 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: on this and sort of better identify these categories. Yeah, 767 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: I believe. I believe the experts in these areas are 768 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: still trying to get firm ideas of what's going on, 769 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: because certainly agnosia is a is a rarity compared to 770 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: the more simpler versions of the music. Right, Yeah, you 771 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: can have a musa and okay, so maybe this is 772 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: the difference. Amusia is the four percent of the population 773 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: who are just toned deaf, whereas agnosia or the term 774 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 1: that I was using earlier, me scroll back into the 775 00:42:52,920 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 1: notes to find it specific musical and hedonia those sound 776 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: like the the extreme version of it where you just 777 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: don't process music at all, Right, And I think that's 778 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: I think that's where we see the overlap. Yeah, and 779 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: those conditions where we're talking, especially when we're talking about 780 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: brain injuries UM, physical trauma to the brain, physical changes 781 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: to the brain, the result in these symptoms. Now in 782 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: the treatment of agnosia UM. The analogy I made earlier 783 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: about the two bridges, that's ultimately where we see the 784 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: main treatment or coping mechanisms, and that is that if 785 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: one bridge is out, there are other bridges. There are 786 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: other ways that we consume music, that we that we 787 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,320 Speaker 1: take music in and so we we see in various 788 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: cases where it basically information is just presented in other 789 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: modalities with that connect to the patients. So it's just 790 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: a different way of connecting with the music. It's interesting 791 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 1: that you use the term bridges because from what I 792 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,359 Speaker 1: can tell, the causes that lead to and these are 793 00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: the physical causes that lead to agnosia UM usually are 794 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: around the occipito temporal border in the brain of the 795 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: ventral stream right connecting parts of the brain together, the 796 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 1: bridges between that that gets damaged, and this could be 797 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: lesions on the parietal or temporal lobes. It can be 798 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,800 Speaker 1: produced from head injury or a stroke, or infection or 799 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: carbon monoxide poisoning, all kinds of things, right, Um, But 800 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: these lead to all the kinds of ignosia, not just 801 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,279 Speaker 1: the auditory ones we're talking about also visual and tactile 802 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: that you know, we're focusing on auditory today, But that bridge, 803 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,400 Speaker 1: if that's severed, that's where that sense kind of goes. Hey, 804 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 1: why are ye all right? So this is what I'm wondering, 805 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: and this is what I'd like to see more research of, 806 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 1: you know, leading us out for the future. What effects 807 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: do a musia or agnosia have on other behaviors like 808 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,759 Speaker 1: we've we've seen okay, yes, these people understanding uh language, 809 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: still right, and they're they're capable of being functional in 810 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 1: society and working and being intelligent and educated. But what 811 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: kind of personalities develop from a person who just doesn't 812 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: have music in their life. It's a good question I'd 813 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: love to hear from from any listeners on this. Certainly, 814 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: the the data we were looking at in the papers 815 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: we were reading, they seem, if anything, it seems like 816 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: most of the time the researchers are surprised at how 817 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: how well the individual does you know, so it's it 818 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 1: I don't see a lot maybe in the more severe 819 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,280 Speaker 1: cases where it's affecting you know, greater sound agnosia in general, 820 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: or or other types of of a stimulus coming into 821 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: the brain, But for the most part, it doesn't seem 822 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: to handicap them significantly. I mean, they're still able in 823 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,919 Speaker 1: many cases to enjoy music. The thing, the one area 824 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: that is that is specifically affected. Yeah, I'm also wondering too, 825 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,319 Speaker 1: and please listeners chime in on this one as well. 826 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: With the rise and popularity of podcasts, I wonder if 827 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,359 Speaker 1: that is an outlet for a muse as like there, Well, 828 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,520 Speaker 1: I don't like music, but these podcasts are great, so 829 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: I'll just load up a bunch of these and listen 830 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,360 Speaker 1: to these all the time. I've certainly met people like that, 831 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: the people who don't want to drive with music on, 832 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,440 Speaker 1: and then inevitably that they want to listen to something right, 833 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: and they'll they'll go for a podcast, We'll go for 834 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: a radio show, or like a book. Yeah, yeah, interesting, Okay, huh. Well, 835 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: I like to balance back and forth between the two. 836 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,719 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm in the mood for music, sometimes in the 837 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: mood for a podcast or a book. But that's an interesting, 838 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: interesting difference in experiences. Well, it seems like there's a 839 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,680 Speaker 1: lot of information that we can learn from you, the 840 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: listeners out here about this. I mean, we're scratching the 841 00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 1: surface of this pretty much brand new discipline of research. 842 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: So let us know what you think about it. I 843 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 1: want to hear your your experiences. Maybe you've met people 844 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,279 Speaker 1: who don't like music at all, maybe you're one of 845 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: those people, and maybe that's why you listen to the show. Um, 846 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: so let us know. You can contact us in all 847 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: the usual ways. We are on social media all over 848 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: the place, Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. And then there's 849 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: also our landing page, stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 850 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,560 Speaker 1: That's where you're gonna find all the podcasts, all the 851 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,160 Speaker 1: videos we've made, and all of the articles, none of 852 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 1: which are musical based. If you have a musea, you 853 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: can consume them and be just fine. That's right. And hey, 854 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with us directly, 855 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: as always, email us at blow the Mind at how 856 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:40,320 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Well more on this and thousands 857 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,719 Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com. 858 00:47:49,840 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: Blow by blas Larger Towns is found by a bottle 859 00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: prote