Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three thirty four,
Speaker 1: episode two of SAPE production of My Heart Radio. Is
Speaker 1: that one of the three stooges back there?
Speaker 2: It was all three of them? Actually, Oh wow, he
Speaker 2: got all three?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Good, it's great to have them here. This is
Speaker 1: a podcast where we take a deep dive into American
Speaker 1: share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, April sixteenth, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: My name is Jack O'Brien. Akay, I'm a chimp, I'm
Speaker 1: a human? Why not both? That's not proven. I'm a
Speaker 1: simian and man, I do not understand what the hell
Speaker 1: I must scream. I'm trapped somewhere between. Oh god, I'd
Speaker 1: really like it any other way. Ay. That is courtesy
Speaker 1: of case Aiken about my you know the story we
Speaker 1: did last week that I guess it was courtesy of
Speaker 1: Chris Crofton brought us the Tale of the Humans, and
Speaker 1: I just thought, what better day for me to sing
Speaker 1: a song about the most anti scientific story we've covered
Speaker 1: in recent memory than on one of our expert episodes
Speaker 1: when we have an actual scientist with us.
Speaker 2: Well, they're endangered. There would be humansies everywhere if there
Speaker 2: wasn't for clim super climate, yet their natural habitat has
Speaker 2: been completely and.
Speaker 1: We will talk about that with our He doesn't know,
Speaker 1: but that's gonna be the majority of the episode. It's
Speaker 1: just how does this affect Humansies thrilled to be joined
Speaker 1: in the second seat today by the co host with
Speaker 1: the mo host, a brilliant comedian, writer, actor, the hilarious,
Speaker 1: the chaotic, the riding of recumbent bike in short shorts.
Speaker 3: Blake Wexland.
Speaker 2: This is Blake Akay. When zeitgeist gets that feeling, it
Speaker 2: wants wectual healing, wectual healing.
Speaker 3: Oh Jack, well.
Speaker 2: No, guys, feel so fine. You just gotctually assaulted. Jack,
Speaker 2: I think really know is what just happened? Thanks for
Speaker 2: having me. Yeah, thank you for that lectual healing.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh it's off of Marvin Gaye's sexual healing.
Speaker 1: Oh got I gotta got it. Okay, now now it's
Speaker 1: clear to me. Yeah, Blake, it's what what with a
Speaker 1: with an intro? This dumb? It's really like, we need
Speaker 1: to bring in our expert guest as soon as possible,
Speaker 1: because otherwise I might shrivel up and blow away in
Speaker 1: a cloud of dust. We're thrilled to be joined in
Speaker 1: our third seat by an academic and industry leader in
Speaker 1: fighting climate change. He's currently director of the UNSW Earth
Speaker 1: and Sustainability Science Research Center and director of the UNSW
Speaker 1: CRONOS fourteen Carbon Cycle Facility. But much more impressibly, he's
Speaker 1: also a podcast host. His show is called Unfucking the Future.
Speaker 1: He is called Chris Turner.
Speaker 3: Joh really, I'm not gonna sing. No one needs to
Speaker 3: hear that, So I'll.
Speaker 1: Go to just I mean, yeah, you have people who
Speaker 1: do that for you. On your show Unfucking Future. We
Speaker 1: were saying has some of some of the most catchy
Speaker 1: little interludes were on Fucking the Future, Blake, I thought
Speaker 1: you were gonna join me and harmonize with me.
Speaker 2: I was just sometimes you're in awe of what you're watching,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. You just want to sit
Speaker 2: back and enjoy it yourself. You know, life's hard enough.
Speaker 2: Let me take some of these treats.
Speaker 1: Yes, I was also telling you guys before we started
Speaker 1: that I played that your podcast and like the word
Speaker 1: the word fuck multiple times for my eight year old
Speaker 1: by accident yesterday as I was kind of listening through
Speaker 1: getting ready to talk to you, and it was also
Speaker 1: the day that he happened to let me know that
Speaker 1: he knew the word fuck for the first time we were
Speaker 1: doing we were doing a crossword puzzle and the clue
Speaker 1: was like what the blank and like softened version of
Speaker 1: some softened version would be heck. And he was like,
Speaker 1: so is that? He he sit in the backseat, I'm
Speaker 1: driving and we do crossward puzzles together. He's like, would
Speaker 1: it be fun? Fuck? Do you think it's fuck? Dad?
Speaker 1: Like you you're turning eight in a couple of weeks,
Speaker 1: Like why do you?
Speaker 3: Why do you?
Speaker 1: But it's like it's cute because you didn't even think
Speaker 1: it was like a bad thing to ask. He was
Speaker 1: like that they talk about that sometimes at school. Fuck
Speaker 1: is it?
Speaker 3: Maybe?
Speaker 1: Fuck? So he didn't realize.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Australia, it's the biggest complaint I've got. It's not
Speaker 3: the language on the show. It's everyone really is.
Speaker 1: How is tomorrow? By the way, we haven't we we
Speaker 1: have tomorrow?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just before five o'c Tuesday, and it's looking
Speaker 3: pretty good. We're still here.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, I can't wait.
Speaker 2: I can't wait. It is like four a m. Free So,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us at such an
Speaker 2: odd time. We really appreciate it. No, no, no need.
Speaker 1: It's scary, so good, so good, And Chris, you could
Speaker 1: probably already feel the jockeying. So I'm just gonna put
Speaker 1: it right out there. When we announced, when we told
Speaker 1: Blake we were going to have an expert guest on,
Speaker 1: he said, I'm going to take the lead on this one,
Speaker 1: and has just been sending me past aggressive text messages
Speaker 1: all morning saying stay out of my way. So just
Speaker 1: so you know, there's gonna be, there's gonna be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So what's Australia like? These are hard questions.
Speaker 2: What's going on down there Australia?
Speaker 1: What's that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? What's that like? That's probably one of the most
Speaker 3: said for questions I ever had.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. You hear that.
Speaker 1: Jack.
Speaker 2: That's why you should shut up, Jack and I should talk.
Speaker 2: Your potty mouth child is fucking the future. That's what's happening.
Speaker 2: That's what this podcast should be called.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, he's such a polluter.
Speaker 2: He is.
Speaker 1: He drives a hummer at a school every day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's such a wonderful story. I feel my work
Speaker 3: here is done. Actually, you have all.
Speaker 1: Right, Chris, we are going to talk about your area
Speaker 1: of expertise, unfucking the future, climate change, how we talk
Speaker 1: about it, how we make sense of the world in
Speaker 1: a world that is rapidly heating and escalating towards climate
Speaker 1: disaster and not doing a great job always tangling with that,
Speaker 1: coming to grips with that. But before we get into
Speaker 1: that stuff, we do like to get to know our
Speaker 1: expert guests a little bit better and ask you, what
Speaker 1: is something from your search history.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm a big fan of the TV show What
Speaker 3: We Do in the Shadows. Yeah, Climate One, Yeah, the
Speaker 3: full Functional Vampires, HM, Bumbling food Stats, An Island. Well,
Speaker 3: I'm a complete fan of Indoctrinate the Kids, and yeah,
Speaker 3: the six series has just been announced but sadly also
Speaker 3: the last season, but it's coming. I can't wait to
Speaker 3: see if Matt Berry just has me stitches all the time.
Speaker 3: That is dark que just brilliant, very very fun, very wrong,
Speaker 3: very wrong.
Speaker 1: That was the first Matt Berry. Like, that was my
Speaker 1: first Matt Berry. I didn't get into all the other
Speaker 1: like British shows that everyone talks about him being incredible
Speaker 1: in and you know, every few I'm like, if it's
Speaker 1: good enough, they'll make an American version. Guy no, that's
Speaker 1: not true. But I just had missed him up to
Speaker 1: this point, and well, Jack, I was.
Speaker 3: Just thinking about your son, you know. I mean I
Speaker 3: think he's advancing quite low. You should watch Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean think of that.
Speaker 2: And also has an English accent for some reason, weirdly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right, that's very strange. Talks exactly like Matt Berry.
Speaker 2: I love that show. It's such a good show. Like Matt,
Speaker 2: Matt Berry is one of those people where when he
Speaker 2: pops up on screen or equal you just hear his voice,
Speaker 2: you immediately light up because you know, oh, this person's automatic.
Speaker 2: He's going to be so funny. Were just watched a fallout.
Speaker 3: Isn't it. Yeah, it's just fantastic. But it's very dark
Speaker 3: carried to again, but you just start smiling exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, incredible.
Speaker 2: What is something you think is underunderrated?
Speaker 3: Underrated? I think I think he's actually eating plant based foods.
Speaker 3: Would you believe it? About climate change? And that's something
Speaker 3: that I just think is mind blowing on how it
Speaker 3: can have a really positive effect on the climate crisis.
Speaker 3: And it's something that I think most of us just
Speaker 3: first grown up with traditional meat diets, actually eating mostly
Speaker 3: plant based food. Maggie Beds Is on the show. We'll
Speaker 3: talk about that a little bit later. It's been a
Speaker 3: bit big advocate for years and it makes a big difference.
Speaker 3: It makes a huge difference. So, yeah, if people are
Speaker 3: looking for one solution, that's probably the one of my
Speaker 3: climt that's the one that's probably the one. If you're
Speaker 3: gonna do anything, that's.
Speaker 2: Ah we I'm going to cross that question off my list.
Speaker 4: You've answered that when you say plant based, yeah, you're talking.
Speaker 3: You can't say that. You can't say vegan.
Speaker 1: Is Yeah, the plant based is like is like a
Speaker 1: wedge salad with bacon sprinkled on it before I tuck
Speaker 1: into my steak, right, that's like, yeah, there's a plant
Speaker 1: in there, and then like there's a little partially on
Speaker 1: top of my steak. I don't know why. That's just
Speaker 1: like turned into man cow.
Speaker 2: You see, you're halfway there, right, Yeah, just a hunk
Speaker 2: of blue cheese right with the mold is technically a plant.
Speaker 2: The dumbest person in the world of that. What do
Speaker 2: you think is the biggest barrier to entry for a
Speaker 2: plant based diet? Would you say? Is it because it's
Speaker 2: not really availability anymore? Is it just Nah, No, I.
Speaker 3: Think actually for a lot of us, it's especially in
Speaker 3: the West, it's uh, it's just prett and you go
Speaker 3: out for meals and it's expected you ever meet you know,
Speaker 3: or you for dinner with people, and people kind of expected.
Speaker 3: So I think that's probably one of the biggest things.
Speaker 3: It's just acceptance. And I don't think the word vegan.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like a lot of these things, right.
Speaker 3: You get people who have got really extreme views on
Speaker 3: both ends of a spectrum, and sometimes very hard line
Speaker 3: plant eaters can get right hard line, and that's tough
Speaker 3: as well. You know, you're living a pure life or
Speaker 3: nothing at all, and that's tough for a lot of
Speaker 3: people to sort of move into. So just ignore those
Speaker 3: just do what you can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say that I've had more and more
Speaker 1: tofu as I've gotten older and more conscious of the
Speaker 1: importance of eating a plant based and the things that
Speaker 1: good chefs and you know, people who've been eating tofu
Speaker 1: for a while do with tofu is such an insult
Speaker 1: to or it's so good compared to like what I
Speaker 1: was eating before, when it is just like hunks of
Speaker 1: like kind of half cooked tofu it was like, I'm like,
Speaker 1: was the energy industry, Like, was the fossil fuel industry
Speaker 1: paying people to just make the worst tasting tofu in
Speaker 1: the world when I was growing up, because it was like,
Speaker 1: so they like weren't trying at all. They're just like no,
Speaker 1: I mean, okay.
Speaker 3: I've got a big Britain of the in the eighties
Speaker 3: and salads were just like this miserable so and iceburg
Speaker 3: lettuce and some shredded carrot. I mean, honestly, it was
Speaker 3: like rationing was still going on now. These amazing bals
Speaker 3: my my nand bless her. When she was alive, we
Speaker 3: had this on who was a vegetarian and apparently in
Speaker 3: the sixties all they could make for was stuffed tomatoes.
Speaker 3: That was it. Whenever came out, I had no idea
Speaker 3: what to give it. Let's just give us stuff tomato,
Speaker 3: maybe some cat yeah, yes, anyway, I mean yeah, big, big, big,
Speaker 3: big difference. Yeah, huge improvement and even go low me.
Speaker 3: You can still eat me if you need to, but
Speaker 3: go low, you know, defeat everything.
Speaker 1: The things that Korean stews do with tofu, it's one
Speaker 1: of one of the most delicious.
Speaker 2: And it's Korean people named Stuart Korean.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, right, any Korean named stew You can just
Speaker 1: reach out and they'll look it up for you. No, no, no, Blake,
Speaker 1: come on, huh, come on man, this is a serious.
Speaker 1: This is an expert episode. I told you ahead, expert episode.
Speaker 1: Get your head out of the Stuart puns.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: I've I've heard of it. I'm just going to breeze
Speaker 2: past that because I don't take your comments seriously. But
Speaker 2: I have heard it put in a good way of
Speaker 2: people who've had like it sounds funny, almost like it's
Speaker 2: an abstract thought. Success converting to veganism or eating like
Speaker 2: a plant based diet is using things as just us,
Speaker 2: like delivery devices. Almost where sauce is generally the best
Speaker 2: part of a meal, or that's where you're often getting
Speaker 2: the most taste out of where it's a very small
Speaker 2: difference between a piece of chicken unsauced, unseasoned versus you know,
Speaker 2: like a tofu or a plant based item. So I
Speaker 2: think it's less difficult than it seems to.
Speaker 3: But I've never heard that. But that's that's fantastic.
Speaker 1: You can have it.
Speaker 2: That's all yours, the thing I stole from someone else.
Speaker 2: You could have.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's creativity, right.
Speaker 2: Yes, Chris, what's you think is over overrated?
Speaker 3: Overrated? Oh gosh in the climate space, I think denial,
Speaker 3: denial is massive, is not going to help us.
Speaker 1: So higher line of questions.
Speaker 3: It's amazing, right, we learn about this for a couple
Speaker 3: of centuries, and yeah, you still get people, I'll pay
Speaker 3: of a flat efforts in the fake moon landings and
Speaker 3: they they they get more vocal again, which is weird,
Speaker 3: which is very weird. But I'm sure we'll talk about
Speaker 3: that a little bit later. Yeah, it's not gonna help us.
Speaker 1: It almost feels like like there's this point in your
Speaker 1: show where you play this Maggie Thatcher I call her
Speaker 1: mag March March that you play this Margaret Thatcher speech
Speaker 1: where she is talking about like how we need to
Speaker 1: take care of the world and like you know, kind
Speaker 1: of modern ish messaging around climate change and like what
Speaker 1: you know, what it is to be responsible citizen of earth,
Speaker 1: which is not in line. You know, I would have
Speaker 1: assumed that she would have been, you know, drill baby,
Speaker 1: drill type, you.
Speaker 2: Know, because not very iron of her, right, Yes, But then.
Speaker 1: You point out, first of all, there's been more carbon
Speaker 1: pumped into the atmosphere since she gave that speech than
Speaker 1: in all of the history before. But it kind of
Speaker 1: made me one or like, were we more progressive on
Speaker 1: climate change before, like at the very start, because once
Speaker 1: once we realized, once people started to realize what was
Speaker 1: actually happening, the big money started pushing back, like have
Speaker 1: we actually lost ground since the beginning, or like in
Speaker 1: terms of just the national mind share. It was just
Speaker 1: so wild for me to hear Margaret Thatcher like give
Speaker 1: a speech where she was just like, yeah, we I mean,
Speaker 1: global warming is real, and then yeah, fifteen years later
Speaker 1: the US President is like changing the word to be
Speaker 1: less alarming.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, it's amazing. I mean that was when
Speaker 3: I was growing up, when I was a teenager, Yeah,
Speaker 3: was Prime minister, and it was just this amazing time.
Speaker 3: You had just think called the Brundon Report from the
Speaker 3: UN United Nations talking about we've got major problems on
Speaker 3: the planet. You have these big summits discovery I was
Speaker 3: own Hall, and then you have Margaret Fatcher coming out
Speaker 3: saying we've got a serious problem. And she was so
Speaker 3: far ahead of a curve and post a child of
Speaker 3: the right wing right and here's someone saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was like the Reagan of the UK.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and but I think also a recognition that there's
Speaker 3: going to be no economy, no life that we know
Speaker 3: it if we carry on this way. So ultimately it's
Speaker 3: self defeating. So yeah, she was well ahead of her time,
Speaker 3: and it's always surprising when people didn't realize that. And
Speaker 3: it was a massive difference. So it's felt like this
Speaker 3: a massive wave. We're going to do it, We're going
Speaker 3: to do it. And then as you say, money came in,
Speaker 3: big money came in, and there's this rearguard action. I
Speaker 3: wouldn't say we've gone backwards. I think most I think
Speaker 3: publicly we're far beyond that. But of a technology now
Speaker 3: and actually the solutions, yeah, it's light years away. I mean,
Speaker 3: we've got the solutions now. We've just got to we're
Speaker 3: got to just get on with doing it now and just.
Speaker 1: Get around the money, like the like.
Speaker 3: And that's one of the big challenges. And yeah, we'll chat,
Speaker 3: but how do you incentivize it? How do you make
Speaker 3: it really happen? But listeners, it's it's it's up to us,
Speaker 3: it's up to you. You're a consumer with the people
Speaker 3: so we're going to make a difference and we can
Speaker 3: do Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now I don't like the sound of that. That sounds hard, So.
Speaker 2: You put it in the easiest way. Yeah. Sorry, I'm
Speaker 2: doing things while listening to this podcast, and even merely
Speaker 2: listening is a fucking task. It's a lot of work
Speaker 2: Jesus that I'm trying to take and you take, and
Speaker 2: you take, uh it is that must be incredibly frustrating
Speaker 2: for you too, because I've I've listened to your podcast
Speaker 2: is amazing. I like love it's what I was listening
Speaker 2: to it before you join, Like it's almost like seeing
Speaker 2: a celebrity like and you are. You are a celebrity,
Speaker 2: but you are very positive and I think a lot
Speaker 2: or let me say like optimistic. I think is well
Speaker 2: like realistically optimistic and giving action items, which I really
Speaker 2: appreciate about the podcast and I do. Getting back to
Speaker 2: the Thatcher of it all, we were shocked to hear
Speaker 2: that Margaret Thatcher was so progressive, I guess you would
Speaker 2: say on this issue because of her politics, and it's
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be a political issue like many issues you
Speaker 2: know like this, like why has this been politicized? But
Speaker 2: to your point, if it the it's like here at least,
Speaker 2: you know, like this conservative side of everything, like is
Speaker 2: often doing things to stop progress on the like on
Speaker 2: the climate front. But to your point, how would you ay,
Speaker 2: how frustrating is it to speak to something that shouldn't
Speaker 2: be politicized, that is, and then be what would you
Speaker 2: say to someone who's more conservative on the issue. Would
Speaker 2: you point to the fact that, like, hey, there's going
Speaker 2: to be no business if we don't solve this, Like
Speaker 2: what would your response to that be?
Speaker 1: And if you could do it in the manner of
Speaker 1: a wrestler, a professional wrestler just addressing the camera, hyme,
Speaker 1: was you going to ask me to sing? Actually, don't worry.
Speaker 1: I think we're done.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. It's I grew up in the UK
Speaker 3: and I think one of the bonkers things actually living
Speaker 3: in Australias are saying the fact that it's politicized is insane.
Speaker 3: It really is, because actually in the UK it's pretty
Speaker 3: simil I mean, you've got extreme views both ends, but
Speaker 3: actually arguably the right wing conservatives have actually done as much,
Speaker 3: if not more, on the green environmental arenas than the left.
Speaker 3: So it's you know, it's it's on both sides. It's
Speaker 3: actually very balanced. So that's weird when you go in Australia,
Speaker 3: US you have these particulars. I mean, people have got views,
Speaker 3: but I think it's one of these things where they
Speaker 3: it's all part of your belief systems and where you
Speaker 3: see your value and where you place yourself the world.
Speaker 3: And I think that can be a challenge and I
Speaker 3: think actually scientists zero one zer one one zero, it's
Speaker 3: very much visited data and you should just get on
Speaker 3: with it and accept it. And the human side and
Speaker 3: we sort of COVID right you actually there's another element.
Speaker 3: You can come up with a vaccine, but actually getting
Speaker 3: it in the arms another part. And I think for
Speaker 3: a lot of us in the science community, we always
Speaker 3: just thought I'll just find that last bit of truth,
Speaker 3: that last bit of evidence that I'll actually convince people.
Speaker 3: And I think for me, COVID was a classic example
Speaker 3: where you will die or you could die if you
Speaker 3: don't get his vaccine, and people still said no, yeah,
Speaker 3: and it was like wow, okay, so they.
Speaker 1: Were like that you will die, how about that like
Speaker 1: through a ventilator. Yeah, You're like, well, what.
Speaker 3: So when you're started to talk about things where it's
Speaker 3: a bit of a longer time scale, then that's a
Speaker 3: real challenge. So yeah, but I think you know, the
Speaker 3: thing I fall back on is there is huge scientific
Speaker 3: consensus on this. I mean for a group of people,
Speaker 3: anyone who's listening, who knows a scientist, they will argue
Speaker 3: with anyone. I mean, that's how you run promoted. That's
Speaker 3: where you find, you get your big research paper, your
Speaker 3: nerd out, you get your promotion. And the fact when
Speaker 3: you're starting to talk about ninety seven plus percent or
Speaker 3: ninety nine percent of all scientists saying this is real
Speaker 3: and we've got to do something about it, I think
Speaker 3: just speaks volumes. That speaks volumes and often just even
Speaker 3: sharing that information with people. People are listening to realize
Speaker 3: it's not this classic thing of oh there's a different view,
Speaker 3: Oh maybe it's not true. You know, we used to
Speaker 3: get interviewed, even until that recently. You get interviewed, if
Speaker 3: we're doing a call with you on a TV show,
Speaker 3: you'll probably have some extreme skeptic or climate contrarian who
Speaker 3: would argue, usually in a really good suit, I don't
Speaker 3: really have good suits. Really in a good suit, very
Speaker 3: slick and actually just saying oh there's a different view,
Speaker 3: and everyone would say, well there's one person who says
Speaker 3: it is one that doesn't maybe it's not real. I
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about it, or you know Jack
Speaker 3: saying or I was like a lot of work client.
Speaker 1: I never said that.
Speaker 2: I never remember you said that.
Speaker 3: You do it all not deny everything.
Speaker 2: Into your including the climate from Jack, but like if
Speaker 2: you because you're right, because it's not a one to
Speaker 2: one it's a false representation of the numbers, where what
Speaker 2: they should have is ninety seven scientists like you on
Speaker 2: and three as the counterpoint, like you said, it would
Speaker 2: be more representative of actually how the scientific yeah field
Speaker 2: sees it. That's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: we're gonna come back. We're gonna dig more into this
Speaker 1: because it is a more hopeful picture of climate than
Speaker 1: I think I initially had my brain, you know, just
Speaker 1: being like this big thing is looming and oil company
Speaker 1: is main player, and they are lying and not going
Speaker 1: to let us do anything. And there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people doing a lot of interesting stuff. So we'll
Speaker 1: be right back and we're back. So, Chris, you've been
Speaker 1: studying this for thirty years kind of the meat of
Speaker 1: the period where it's gone from being a fringe subject
Speaker 1: on people's minds to a subject that's on people's minds
Speaker 1: and that everyone agrees should be like the biggest story.
Speaker 1: It feels like, but how has like you talked about
Speaker 1: just like early days of climate in your career versus today,
Speaker 1: Like what about that contrast makes you hopeful or otherwise?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Now we've known for such a long time. You know,
Speaker 3: it was an amazing lady back in the eighteen fifties,
Speaker 3: Unice Foot. She was American, and she was a very
Speaker 3: early scientist area who basically discovered the greenhouse effecting and
Speaker 3: climate change. Didn't call it christis or change at the time,
Speaker 3: but she realized actually pumping walls here to carbon dark
Speaker 3: side in the atmosphere cause is heating. So we've known
Speaker 3: about it since the eighteen fifties, and so by the time,
Speaker 3: you know, in the nineteen eighties or so, we're pretty clear.
Speaker 3: You know that use of dirty energy has created this
Speaker 3: heat trapping pollution and it's basically adding a blanket around
Speaker 3: the earth and is causing irreversible heating. So we've known
Speaker 3: that since the eighties and some companies, which fossil fuel
Speaker 3: companies like x On Mobile. I actually had some of
Speaker 3: the best scientists working in it in the seventies and
Speaker 3: they knew back then, so it's been a bit of
Speaker 3: a frustration, but at the same time sort of you're
Speaker 3: always trying to engage with people to say, look, this
Speaker 3: is what the science is showing us, and this is
Speaker 3: looking really bad, and what we're going to do about it,
Speaker 3: and if we move quite quickly it would be a
Speaker 3: relatively easier transition. But now we are here, we are
Speaker 3: in the twenty twenties having the same conversation. My kids
Speaker 3: are now older than when I was first active in
Speaker 3: this area, and where we're still trying to get carbon
Speaker 3: ducts and other greenhouse gas emissions down, you know, a
Speaker 3: pollution out of the air. So it's been frustrating, but
Speaker 3: at the same time, I think as a far greater
Speaker 3: engagement this the last couple of years, particularly for those
Speaker 3: of us in the Norman hemisphere and the Western world
Speaker 3: are becoming even more aware of it. So I think
Speaker 3: there's a real energy and people want to do something,
Speaker 3: and that was really the motivation behind the show, to
Speaker 3: be honest, because as a climate scientists. Most people. I mean,
Speaker 3: I still get for crazy emails and I no doubt
Speaker 3: I'll get a load more after this this call. But
Speaker 3: it was one of those things where.
Speaker 2: Man, and I'm sorry you wat wasps nest here.
Speaker 3: And it's just one of the moost things where most
Speaker 3: people will ask me, what can I do. I think
Speaker 3: that's the problem we've often had, is that here's a science.
Speaker 3: Now someone else go and sort it out. What we're
Speaker 3: trying to do as scientists who actually work with government, public,
Speaker 3: actually industry, business, let's get this. These ideas deployed and
Speaker 3: they are happening. It is super super positive just how
Speaker 3: much we're seeing these technologies deploy more and more renewable
Speaker 3: energy sources around the world, not just in the West.
Speaker 3: So you know, there's a lot of good news out there,
Speaker 3: but it's it's also hearing for people what they can
Speaker 3: do individually.
Speaker 1: That's the idea we talked before about on the show,
Speaker 1: about how something you just made reference to, like the
Speaker 1: Excellon knowing about this, like doing some of the most
Speaker 1: advanced research into climate change decades before. I think most
Speaker 1: people even knew it was the thing, like they were
Speaker 1: lying about it before we even knew there wasn't it
Speaker 1: to lie about, and so I feel like it's such
Speaker 1: a clear villain like origin story. I just wonder, like
Speaker 1: how you think about Like one of the things I
Speaker 1: like about your podcast, like a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of the times when I'm hearing these stories, like hearing
Speaker 1: the X on mobile story and you know, them discovering
Speaker 1: that there's a problem and then being like, so how
Speaker 1: do we how do we frame this from a marketing perspective?
Speaker 1: You know, we don't get names. We get big corporations,
Speaker 1: and then those are hard to like kind of grab
Speaker 1: on to. But there's a couple real villains on your podcast,
Speaker 1: like Fred Singer.
Speaker 4: Ah, yes, yeah, piece of work. I will say thank.
Speaker 3: You, yeah for those Yeah, amazingly completely outrageous characters who
Speaker 3: are out there pushing this misinformation disinformation. They're basically creating confusion,
Speaker 3: and the whole thing has been I mean, this is
Speaker 3: a classic thing that you and you can see it
Speaker 3: on the whole other public debase. If you really want
Speaker 3: to just cause confusion, you just say things aren't really
Speaker 3: that certain. You know, we know, we know that if
Speaker 3: you didn't have Colvin docs on the Atmosphere and other
Speaker 3: Green ass gas the planet. We go about mind, that's
Speaker 3: fifty degrees and.
Speaker 1: That Chris, isn't it better than that?
Speaker 3: I think it sounds.
Speaker 2: Cold to me. It sounds a little chilly a little bit.
Speaker 3: It's good, right, I think we all agree a little
Speaker 3: bits good. And the simple thing is you add more
Speaker 3: to the atmosphere, more pollution, ill warm things up, and
Speaker 3: then he thinks up. But when it's some of these
Speaker 3: characters like Fred Seeinger, this was back in the eighties,
Speaker 3: you know, creating these arguments for some of the best
Speaker 3: known scientists actually in the space and then actually working
Speaker 3: with him towards the end of their lives and basically
Speaker 3: casting doubt on their work just introduces that certainty with
Speaker 3: the public that, oh, maybe even the experts aren't sure,
Speaker 3: just at a time when you've got this real head
Speaker 3: of steam that actually they're going to make a difference.
Speaker 3: I mean, ex on Mobile. One of my favorite things
Speaker 3: that I've been watching online at the moment is a
Speaker 3: great Adam McKay, the director. It's just incredibly funny, clever Matt.
Speaker 3: Adam McKay did the Netflix movie Don't Look Up. He
Speaker 3: started a new sort of satirical comedy channel called Yellow
Speaker 3: Dots Studios and with Rain Wilson, they've done this spoof
Speaker 3: on Game of Thrones called a Tale of Fire and Ice,
Speaker 3: and you know, it's the scene where they drag out
Speaker 3: via undead in a box, you know, in front of
Speaker 3: all the main characters, John Snow and all the others,
Speaker 3: and instead of the undead is Rain Wilson dressed up
Speaker 3: as a scientist, all chained up, and this fantastic thing
Speaker 3: about the House of ex on mobile as being the enemy.
Speaker 3: And if people haven't watched it's on YouTube. It's absolutely brilliant,
Speaker 3: absolutely brilliant. But is that Yeah, there's some great villains
Speaker 3: in this story. And you know, when I used teaching
Speaker 3: about climate change, one of the first things I used
Speaker 3: to show was actually shared the students of this report
Speaker 3: back from the seventies. There's lots of them that have
Speaker 3: been released since or been leaked, and it shows back
Speaker 3: in the seventies, some of the best scientists are pretty
Speaker 3: much on the money, back in the nineteen seventies and
Speaker 3: seeing students get so cross, so cross, and basically when
Speaker 3: I was born and you it's outrageous, absolute us and
Speaker 3: they still to come down st claiming, oh it's too expensive.
Speaker 3: Now we need to stick with fossil fuel. That's the future. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's just incredible they're still being given their time, some
Speaker 3: of these characters.
Speaker 1: Fred Singer, by the way, for listeners, we we actually
Speaker 1: recently did a story about lunchables, the public health disaster
Speaker 1: that is Oscar Myers started as Oscar Myers, but it's
Speaker 1: like a craft food prepackaged lunch that was given to
Speaker 1: us by craft food once the tobacco industry took over
Speaker 1: the food industry and like they were like, all right,
Speaker 1: one thing, we know how to get people addicted in
Speaker 1: a way that will make us money and kill them.
Speaker 1: Like that's and so I just bring it up here
Speaker 1: because Fred Singer's background thing that prepared him to be
Speaker 1: like one of the fossil fuel industries like go to
Speaker 1: people for so in confusion. His background was so in
Speaker 1: confusion about the health effects of smoking. Yeah, amazing, so
Speaker 1: wild that that was just this like original sin where
Speaker 1: all these professional liars were like watching each other being like,
Speaker 1: hey we should draft that guy. Look at the talent
Speaker 1: on that ad campaign.
Speaker 2: I mean he has all he can shoot, he can dribble.
Speaker 3: Can you just need people out that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, but like because you were taught. I was
Speaker 2: listening to your episode. I think it was the Blue
Speaker 2: Carbon episode, yes, Chris, and it was if we're talking
Speaker 2: like making this like a cinematic thing where we have
Speaker 2: the villains, the villains seem like very clearly defined, where
Speaker 2: it's almost like tragically sad and sweet that the the protagonists,
Speaker 2: the people, the heroes of this worry can actually be
Speaker 2: from that environment, like the ocean or actually natural resources,
Speaker 2: which is the things that we're actively destroying are the
Speaker 2: things that can actually help us as well, which is
Speaker 2: so you know, like kind of sad but kind of
Speaker 2: sweet also. But yeah, I thought that was a really
Speaker 2: really interesting episode where I've always thought, oh, it's like
Speaker 2: we need to do this. We need like human beings
Speaker 2: need to reverse so many of our habits, which we do.
Speaker 2: And also we you know, your guests was saying we
Speaker 2: can't do it without help from the environment. Also the environment.
Speaker 3: That's that's that's the amazing San Juan who's in Conservation International,
Speaker 3: and yeah, the whole idea of blue Carbon is, yeah,
Speaker 3: basically using the oceans. And he has this lovely quote
Speaker 3: he says, look, if I was king of the world
Speaker 3: for just one day, I protect the mangrove forests, which
Speaker 3: of these incredible trees that live on the coastal plains,
Speaker 3: and they pump down so much carbon into out of
Speaker 3: the atmosphere into the ground there. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 3: multiple times more than tropical rainfall. These things are huge.
Speaker 3: And as you say, we go and clearing them and
Speaker 3: under the guys that you get a nice view. It's
Speaker 3: just I'm clearing for a whole load of problems results
Speaker 3: as a as a result.
Speaker 1: I'm a proponent personally of condos, personal condos with good
Speaker 1: views of man. Yeah, I'm so. I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: you could convince me otherwise, but that's just where I'm at.
Speaker 1: We'll just put him in the mangroves, right, Yeah, how
Speaker 1: are we going to appreciate the mangroves if we don't
Speaker 1: have giant condos there? Thank you for the question, John,
Speaker 1: problem solved a point.
Speaker 3: I think the really important thing with with with something
Speaker 3: like as big and there's an enormous as climate crisis
Speaker 3: is you could go really dark really quickly. You could
Speaker 3: go back and there's a huge amount of challenges massive
Speaker 3: But the problem is if you just give that message
Speaker 3: of despair, nothing will happen. You know, we need to
Speaker 3: get people motivated. And there's a lot of great stuff,
Speaker 3: as you say, but it's happening. Putting aside to condos,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of really good things that are happening.
Speaker 3: So maybe we talk.
Speaker 1: About the good stuff that are happening in the world
Speaker 1: of condos on another episode you can go ahead with.
Speaker 2: Her contemporary housing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you've gotta you've gotta get people hope and
Speaker 3: and actually show them which way we can actually make
Speaker 3: a big difference. And I think that's motivating, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your podcast does that, which I like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's yeah, another reason why I connect with it.
Speaker 1: Yes, you your podcast also, you know you have the
Speaker 1: Adam McKay episode about storytelling just again, and I think
Speaker 1: your instinct of like telling your students from day one
Speaker 1: like they have been lying to us all along, Like
Speaker 1: it does help when I hear the facts about okay,
Speaker 1: like here are the things you can do. You can
Speaker 1: like change your diet, you know, which I'm joking, Like,
Speaker 1: I one agree, there are things that we can all
Speaker 1: do to help. But at the same time, the vast,
Speaker 1: vast majority of this damage has been caused by these companies,
Speaker 1: like these villains. I feel like there's something kind of
Speaker 1: focusing and simplifying about that that I wish was a
Speaker 1: little bit more. I don't know, maybe Adam McKay is
Speaker 1: going to make like the great film about just like
Speaker 1: the history of this, but I do feel like that
Speaker 1: we had we had the The Insider about the tobacco
Speaker 1: industry that was like an Academy Award winning film. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to the genre of movies to come about.
Speaker 1: They're like name names like podcast talks about. So I've
Speaker 1: probably said I don't know the phrase climate change a
Speaker 1: couple times at least since we started recording this episode.
Speaker 1: That phrase was invented by Republicans to downplay the problem
Speaker 1: of at like climate heating, like they change. They changed
Speaker 1: the word from global warming to climate change. Like Frank Luntz,
Speaker 1: whose name I recognized from being like a Republican polster,
Speaker 1: was that was like his brain child. He was like,
Speaker 1: what if we just we just say climate change. You know,
Speaker 1: we're acknowledging that it's changing. Okay, don't I can see
Speaker 1: you getting mad. We're saying we admit it's changing for
Speaker 1: better or worse. Who's to say you know it's changing.
Speaker 1: That's enough, Like that's the first step. We've admitted that,
Speaker 1: and this is a negotiation, like is kind of the
Speaker 1: energy that it has, and they fucking won. Like when
Speaker 1: you search New York Times dot com results for like
Speaker 1: global warming sixty six point six global heating like only
Speaker 1: one hundred. Total global warming is sixty six thousand, climate
Speaker 1: change is ninety seven thousand. It's like the phrase that won.
Speaker 1: And it's just what Republicans wanted to make it seem
Speaker 1: less scary when they were talking about it, and they again,
Speaker 1: it's just a I don't want to feel hopeless. At
Speaker 1: the same time, I do want to acknowledge that we
Speaker 1: are the victim of a vast, long term, and highly
Speaker 1: successful campaign to lie to us about something before we
Speaker 1: even knew there was something to be lied to about.
Speaker 1: That is like very sophisticated, and I don't know, it
Speaker 1: just like makes it. It's like clarifying to me that like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: there's this. We're in a battle with a lot of
Speaker 1: different people who are putting a lot of different thought
Speaker 1: into it. We are slowly making progress in that battle
Speaker 1: in a bunch of ways that we'll soon talk about
Speaker 1: but I just wanted to kind of hear your thoughts
Speaker 1: on that because I was certainly a victim of calling
Speaker 1: it climate change. I think I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: what I referred to it as until your show told
Speaker 1: me I shouldn't be.
Speaker 3: Oh that's beautifully Puss. I'll definitely have you on the
Speaker 3: show next time.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're right.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the broken clocks right, twice a day. Yeah,
Speaker 2: his kids and left and right.
Speaker 3: Tough crowd, right, you have to work with Jack, is
Speaker 3: that right?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's uh, it's one of those things where
Speaker 3: and change is good, right, So a perception is, oh,
Speaker 3: oh it's change, okay, and actually that recognition that change
Speaker 3: isn't good in this case, And actually there's a more
Speaker 3: there's a bigger issue. I mean, some people aren't comfortable
Speaker 3: with crisis, like calling it out of the same way
Speaker 3: people talked about global boiling. But that's another level up again.
Speaker 3: But you know, to get rid of global warming to
Speaker 3: global heating, climate crisis, call it what it is. You know,
Speaker 3: we've got a major major problem here, and it's it's
Speaker 3: now in our face. This isn't something that's going to
Speaker 3: happen in twenty plus years or whatever is happening now
Speaker 3: and we've got to really turn things around. And basically,
Speaker 3: all this procrastination and delaying is going to cost us dearly,
Speaker 3: not just economically but personally, and people are dying as
Speaker 3: a result. So it's an enormous challenge moving forward. But
Speaker 3: you know, misinformation, disinformation, that is a big problem. We've
Speaker 3: got that and a huge challenge. All this stuff is
Speaker 3: out there and people start isolating themselves, and I think
Speaker 3: that's probably one of the bigger challenges moving forward really
Speaker 3: is that actually they get into their own world and
Speaker 3: they start thinking that, oh, they've got their world's view sorted,
Speaker 3: and they find these bits of information and basically say, oh,
Speaker 3: it's not a problem, and they just hone in. That
Speaker 3: is comforting, right, right. And I think one of the
Speaker 3: things where it starts to see a lot more now
Speaker 3: is actually getting out there as a community, getting to
Speaker 3: know your neighbors, working with people, realizing you're not on
Speaker 3: your right And I mean, the show is very much
Speaker 3: about what you can do, and that's not just individually,
Speaker 3: if that's collectively. And actually there's an awful lot of
Speaker 3: people out there who really want to do things and
Speaker 3: actually make a change, but you are right, you know.
Speaker 3: At the same time, you're very aware that there's this
Speaker 3: a whole society is built around, and that's premise.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 3: If you want fossil fuel, here is his petrol, his gas,
Speaker 3: whatever you want coal, it's all there, and there's nothing
Speaker 3: to see here because it's it's just one part of
Speaker 3: the mix and things have changed before, and that's not
Speaker 3: true anymore. You know, everyone knows that. You know. The
Speaker 3: consensus is we've got to we've got an existential threat,
Speaker 3: to be honest, and now we've got to sort it out. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one of what we'll get into the
Speaker 1: lawsuit in Montana, one of the lead lawyers who you
Speaker 1: have on just kind of breaks it down and that's
Speaker 1: where that was very clean for me. It was like
Speaker 1: people don't need fossil fuels, like people need a way
Speaker 1: to heat their homes and get to work, which, like,
Speaker 1: the thing standing in our way is not our need
Speaker 1: for fossil fuels, it's the current structures of power and
Speaker 1: wealth creation that have been built up around fossil fuels
Speaker 1: kind of protecting themselves.
Speaker 2: It's the default. Like that's the default. I'm gonna go
Speaker 2: get yas It's kind of similar with the vegan conversation
Speaker 2: we were having earlier, where you have to say I
Speaker 2: need to go to a vegan restaurant or a restaurant
Speaker 2: with like not just a restaurant, because a restaurant the
Speaker 2: default of restaurants is that, oh, it's going to be
Speaker 2: primarily like meat based. So that is really yeah, that's
Speaker 2: a really good point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But all right, so let's take a break, we'll
Speaker 1: come back. We'll talk about some of the solutions that
Speaker 1: you guys talk about in your show.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back, and we'll be right back.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Blake, and we will be right back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we are back, just like we said. You might
Speaker 1: not have believed it, but we are back. And so Chris,
Speaker 1: there's an episode. Well, let's talk about the Montana lawsuit first,
Speaker 1: because that one is really exciting. A bunch of yeah,
Speaker 1: a bunch of young people got together sued the state
Speaker 1: of Montana and one for like basically there was something
Speaker 1: on the books because of like activists in the seventies
Speaker 1: who recognized that like pollution and you know that they
Speaker 1: needed environmental protections got it added to was it the
Speaker 1: state constitution, Like they got wording added those like you
Speaker 1: also you can't like pollute us all to death, thanks
Speaker 1: and just and so they were able to get this
Speaker 1: group of young people together and sue the state of
Speaker 1: Montana and they won.
Speaker 3: And like what, it's a story. It's like ato movie.
Speaker 1: Truly, So what do you like, Well, tell me, like
Speaker 1: what you take away from that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think it's it. And actually following off
Speaker 3: a little bit what you were saying, Jack about companies
Speaker 3: knowing that they were causing harm. It's this whole thing
Speaker 3: of what's going to happen in the legal system, right,
Speaker 3: So Montana is a fascinating one. This is Nate Bellinger
Speaker 3: who you're talking about, is one of the lawyers for
Speaker 3: a group called Our Children's Trust, and they've been fighting
Speaker 3: against a whole load of fossil field developments for some
Speaker 3: years now. And basically he's got his lovely phrase. He
Speaker 3: talks about it being like a whack a mole. You know,
Speaker 3: someone's looking to put a or a finery or something
Speaker 3: or the drilling site, and they go to the courts
Speaker 3: and they try and fight it and then then maybe
Speaker 3: get it delayed or whatever, and then another one pops up,
Speaker 3: and then the one you've just got delayed comes back
Speaker 3: up again, and it's like he calls it whack a mole. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And so the problem is when you've got the sort
Speaker 3: of individual you just can't find them all. There's just
Speaker 3: so many developments, right, And so they realized, and I'll
Speaker 3: come back to this in a moment, but there's a
Speaker 3: big federal court case at the moment called Juliana versus
Speaker 3: a Federal Government. And so actually there's a really good
Speaker 3: Netflix movie on that called You figalv on Netflix if
Speaker 3: people haven't seen it, it's just a really heartbreaking but
Speaker 3: really insightful documentary about that court case that's still going on. Actually,
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, this case went forward in Montana,
Speaker 3: and basically it's both for Juliana, the federal court case
Speaker 3: and also this one in Montana went after the issues
Speaker 3: on the constitution and those are a lot hard to change.
Speaker 3: You can't get the government getting going in and just
Speaker 3: saying oh, I'll change the law now, so stop that
Speaker 3: problem's gone the way. It's really hard to do this.
Speaker 3: And as you say, you know, back in the seventies
Speaker 3: they inserted this bid in for constitution about having a
Speaker 3: clean and healthful environment in Montana, so it's on the books, right,
Speaker 3: And basically, these amazing young people took the state to
Speaker 3: court with our Children's Trust and basically argued, hang on
Speaker 3: them minute, you're actually not considering climate change any of
Speaker 3: these developments. That's against the constitution. You're not creating a
Speaker 3: clean and health of environment. And the judge found in
Speaker 3: their favors. This is back in June twenty twenty three,
Speaker 3: and it was an incredible court case because basically they
Speaker 3: realized actually legally they had to consider those fossil field
Speaker 3: developments and they won. And Claire Vases, who's one of
Speaker 3: the youth plaintiffs, was actually on the case as well,
Speaker 3: explaining some of the thinking and why she got involved
Speaker 3: and just completely inspirational people. But they won the case
Speaker 3: and it was upheld. So it's in the constitution and
Speaker 3: they now have to do that. Yeah, the state has
Speaker 3: to look at fossil field developments now consider climate change.
Speaker 1: Now a problem for the courtroom drama about this, And
Speaker 1: something that made my blood run a little bit cold
Speaker 1: is when it came time for the state to like
Speaker 1: present their case, they just kind of didn't. They like
Speaker 1: didn't present any testimony or any like really countered the
Speaker 1: case that was presented at all, and that scared me.
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, so like to your point about
Speaker 1: whack them all, almost pronounced it wakam like wakam ole
Speaker 1: whack them all, which plant bass based, and that's why
Speaker 1: I mentioned it. Of course, the only protein that I
Speaker 1: take is from wakam ole.
Speaker 4: It's true, but they like, I've got a guy bad restaurant.
Speaker 3: It's not.
Speaker 1: But it does feel like sometimes these court cases where
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, protecting people's bodily autonomy or
Speaker 1: it always feels like a little like you're you're you're
Speaker 1: just trying to plug a million holes in a damn like.
Speaker 1: It does feel a little bit like whack mule. And
Speaker 1: so I'm just wondering, like when they didn't present any
Speaker 1: contradictory evidence, I'm like, okay, are they just like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll get we'll get you next time. Obviously you have
Speaker 1: us beat here, or I guess there's this federal case
Speaker 1: that's happening right now. So I'm glad to hear that
Speaker 1: it wasn't like challenged in court in court and they're
Speaker 1: not just going to like overturn it.
Speaker 3: But it was amazing, wasn't it. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: it was several days where the case was put forward
Speaker 3: and I think it was like a couple of hours
Speaker 3: reponse and the defense. It was almost hing But he
Speaker 3: reads some of the testimony. They basically the officers who were
Speaker 3: in charge of trying to protect UPUL the constitution didn't
Speaker 3: even know some of the basic things about what the
Speaker 3: UN climate reports were, what they were, what the issues were.
Speaker 3: It was almost it was up Frank. It was just
Speaker 3: embarrassing that these people are charged with that task and
Speaker 3: just had been told basically not to worry about it
Speaker 3: and just weren't weren't aware of it. So I think
Speaker 3: ultimately it fell down because the state realized it didn't
Speaker 3: have a leg to stand on them this point. Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 3: So but the federal case, Yeah, that's that's still going forward.
Speaker 3: That's still going forward. It's still being considered. It's worth
Speaker 3: watching a Netflix movie if people haven't seen it. It's
Speaker 3: quite incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean the Biden administration is that the
Speaker 1: one that the Biden administration is fighting as well.
Speaker 3: Kind of it started with Obama and then yeah, and
Speaker 3: now a Biden is fighting it.
Speaker 1: Administrations are fighting against this attempt to you know, change
Speaker 1: things and hold these corporations accountable and just make it
Speaker 1: so that you can't pollute our children to death. Seems
Speaker 1: like pretty seems like it could be a political winner
Speaker 1: if we paid attention to it, But that doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to be a priority with the mainstream media. Like that's
Speaker 1: another thing that's just very frustrating is the way they
Speaker 1: tell these stories and like what they choose to pay
Speaker 1: attention to can be pretty frustrated. You have an episode
Speaker 1: with Tom Steyer, who ran for president, is running for president.
Speaker 3: He ran for president back in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Twenty, okay, and yeah, and he's he's like a wealthy
Speaker 1: man who is like his thing is that you can
Speaker 1: use capitalism to solve these problems, and there's just I
Speaker 1: don't know, Like one of his investment ideas is if
Speaker 1: you have the technology for figuring out, like what the
Speaker 1: carbon footprint is of your sweater, and you're like holding
Speaker 1: you hold that technology so that people are able to
Speaker 1: keep track of that information, then like that's a trillion
Speaker 1: dollar idea. I don't know. I think it makes sense
Speaker 1: in some ways, right, Like the economics and like capitalism
Speaker 1: is after all just like a system of incentives to
Speaker 1: get people to do what you want them to do.
Speaker 1: But I've also seen this like cycle of engagement and
Speaker 1: then exhaustion in the media and from corporations, where like
Speaker 1: if the economy goes down, capitalists like lose patients with
Speaker 1: anything that is not one profit motivated. And you know,
Speaker 1: if like I saw a Wall Street Journal article in
Speaker 1: the past year where they were like, social responsibility is
Speaker 1: becoming a bad word on Wall Street because people are
Speaker 1: tired of it and have deemed it not profitable enough.
Speaker 1: And so I just I worry about like the forces
Speaker 1: of capital being so fickle that I do feel like
Speaker 1: we need that massive infusion from from the government right
Speaker 1: to kind of force the hand of capital a little bit.
Speaker 1: What were your thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: No, You're absolutely right, and I don't think Tom would
Speaker 3: say it's all just one one way only. You need
Speaker 3: both for sure. I mean, I mean, if you go
Speaker 3: back in the day, right and I just throw your
Speaker 3: slops out the window. You know why capacity guttering it
Speaker 3: was just super easy, didn't cost anything. Send you, send you,
Speaker 3: send your children down the coal mine. That was pretty
Speaker 3: awesome as well. Yeah, you know, keep it going free market,
Speaker 3: back in the in the good old days, back in
Speaker 3: the day like that for us.
Speaker 1: It was like a earlier this month for me.
Speaker 2: But go ahead, well, I'm sorry you were in a
Speaker 2: coal mine earlier this month.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I would never go down there. I can't.
Speaker 1: My kids, my kids as a child, Yeah, that's where I.
Speaker 2: Learned the bad language, working with all these miners.
Speaker 3: Kids us. And we don't do that anymore, right, I mean, gosh,
Speaker 3: it was a great thing back in oh back in
Speaker 3: the eighteen fifties, and there was a great thing called
Speaker 3: A Great Stink of London. I do another bad movie
Speaker 3: and it was amazing. You stopped a review. It wasn't
Speaker 3: a good one, Egbert, so great.
Speaker 1: The Thames.
Speaker 3: It was just for one time London was warm and hot,
Speaker 3: and all this waste was in the Thames and it
Speaker 3: just became its massive smell for two months and they
Speaker 3: called it a great steamer, nearly relocated out of Parliament,
Speaker 3: and up till that point, one just said, ah, it's
Speaker 3: too tough, this is too tough. Just keep throwing your
Speaker 3: slops out. It'll be fine. And as a result of that,
Speaker 3: because it was so awful, they built this massive sewage
Speaker 3: system for London, which was just hundred thousands of kilometers
Speaker 3: of tunnels under London, which is thought to be impossible,
Speaker 3: and just everyone we still use them, right, It's just
Speaker 3: this amazing thing, and other countries had similar things around
Speaker 3: the world. That was government setting those barriers. What people
Speaker 3: like to talk about is barriers of the guardrails. Right,
Speaker 3: this is where we're going. This is the limit that
Speaker 3: we think as a society is acceptable, and that's what
Speaker 3: we vote for. And then basically at Tom's actual I
Speaker 3: think really interesting premises under those settings right now, industry
Speaker 3: capitalism can help deliver about but you need those guardrails
Speaker 3: otherwise you're back to having kids in a coal mine
Speaker 3: and throwing the loops outside.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing about the jack those are
Speaker 2: bad things. Those are bad things.
Speaker 1: Just in terms of how they affect my family's income
Speaker 1: though not so bad. But I understand the arguments against them. Theoretically,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I haven't really listened to any, but yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: You can go on, yes, And so that's that's what's happening.
Speaker 3: You know, this idea of actually recognizing in the law
Speaker 3: of it, actually when you go to buy your sweater
Speaker 3: or whatever what impact am I having when I'm buying that,
Speaker 3: you know what is happening, and when Tom talks about
Speaker 3: or how much carbon dark side is, which is at
Speaker 3: the moment, we've got no idea, right, it's really hard.
Speaker 3: A few progressive companies and while doing that, but we've
Speaker 3: got no idea at all. And with that going into
Speaker 3: legislation now around the world, it's changing everything, is changing
Speaker 3: everything because people know, right, and then places like Europe
Speaker 3: are bringing in sort of taxes. So if you've port
Speaker 3: something into Europe, you've got to satisfy a minimum level.
Speaker 3: You've got to keep your emissions down, your pollution down,
Speaker 3: and so that's driving everyone to say, well, can I
Speaker 3: do it for less? Can I do less, use less carbon?
Speaker 3: Can I use less green ass gases? Can I cause
Speaker 3: less pollution? And then you can show that you can
Speaker 3: you can sell your products. So I think it's this
Speaker 3: gradual transition as we're moving forward, but it's moving pretty
Speaker 3: quickly now that in that direction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost a farm to table approach to like clothes,
Speaker 2: like yarn the body, where you want to know, okay,
Speaker 2: where was this made because made in you know, Portugal,
Speaker 2: made in Bangladesh, it's not specific in any way, and
Speaker 2: often it really gives you no information.
Speaker 1: Yesoever, you just know the entire country that was making Yes,
Speaker 1: Like okay, I think you're good.
Speaker 3: Ye told what made.
Speaker 2: How to get there? Who made it? And it's interesting
Speaker 2: to hear you talk about like the great Stink and
Speaker 2: you know, to go not to be pessimistic, but it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: it literally took an entire city to smell like shit
Speaker 2: in order for them to build that. And then that's
Speaker 2: the challenge, you know, the messaging with I know, with
Speaker 2: I want to get the phrase right with with the
Speaker 2: climate crisis is that people don't think it's as urgent
Speaker 2: as oh, it smells like shit outside and I don't
Speaker 2: want to deal with it, you know. But then it's
Speaker 2: starting to get more you know, there are the like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's more floods now, there's more hurricanes now. And I
Speaker 2: thought there was an interesting episode you did. Your guests,
Speaker 2: I believe they were from Bangkok, and I think like
Speaker 2: there was like setting up like the pork and canals,
Speaker 2: and you're like trying to deal with the current situation,
Speaker 2: which is not great, while also building for the future.
Speaker 2: I think is an interesting dichotomy that's going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, and I think that's the other side, right, because
Speaker 3: we've left it so long now climate is changing. It's
Speaker 3: actually happening. So it's not just a case of are
Speaker 3: we going to cut down carbon pollution or pollution full stop.
Speaker 3: We've also got to live with it. And half of
Speaker 3: us are more depending where you are in the world,
Speaker 3: live in cities, towns and yeah, culture gore and there's
Speaker 3: this amazing tai architect who's working. They've done this incredible
Speaker 3: park in Bangkok, but there's a whole lot of examples
Speaker 3: around the world. But there's this lovely concept, this idea
Speaker 3: of sponginess. Cities have got levels of sponginess, and it's
Speaker 3: this idea that you know, if you can rather and
Speaker 3: just concrete a whole lot and there's all sorts of
Speaker 3: problems downstream. If you can build parks and wetlands and
Speaker 3: other things, you can absorb the brain when you have
Speaker 3: a big flooding, you can create shelter. Because the other
Speaker 3: side is we got massive heat waves us. You know,
Speaker 3: you guys an awful summer last year, and we're gonna
Speaker 3: deal with that, and we're gonna make cities more livable
Speaker 3: for people in this in this changing climate, and that's
Speaker 3: a huge challenge. So and people will demand that very
Speaker 3: very quickly, and they already are now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like the unhappiness of people in like
Speaker 1: we've talked before on the show that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of times like the unlike young people being unhappy right
Speaker 1: now is often blamed on like well, social media and
Speaker 1: they play too many video games, and it's wild to
Speaker 1: me that it's not more of a one to one. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: they're the first generation that has inherited an earth that
Speaker 1: is dying, where the generation and power is like actively
Speaker 1: kind of has been less and less but has been
Speaker 1: like actively ignoring things. So I don't know it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the idea that got that was raised because you spoke
Speaker 1: to that was sort of our instinct on this like
Speaker 1: covering the unhappiness. But you actually interviewed a forensic psychiatrist
Speaker 1: whose job is to figure out like why people are
Speaker 1: going through what they're going through in the modern world,
Speaker 1: and they landed on climate being a part of this
Speaker 1: modern epidemic of unhappiness. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a real challenge for us. That's the amazing
Speaker 3: lease of ancestry in fact, she was actually on the
Speaker 3: Montana court case as well, So incredible inspirational lady. And yes,
Speaker 3: climate is heartbreaking. They actually a major major issue for
Speaker 3: so many people in there's global surveys that she's been
Speaker 3: involved in, and now the is showing this and I
Speaker 3: think that's a Now the point for a motivation for
Speaker 3: the show is actually providing hope for people, because it
Speaker 3: is so easy just to give up, and people are
Speaker 3: incredibly vulnerable, especially when you're in growing up and you're
Speaker 3: literally growing but also just trying to understand the world.
Speaker 3: And there is the enormity of what our generations, older
Speaker 3: generations have done to give this. You know, since I've
Speaker 3: been born, as you said right at the beginning when
Speaker 3: we started the show, you know can't and the amount
Speaker 3: of pollution we put up, it's more than double since
Speaker 3: I was born, going into the atmosphere. Then the whole
Speaker 3: history of the world, the civilization. So you know the
Speaker 3: fact that actually in the state that we know this
Speaker 3: has cause harm, we've carried on doing it. And this
Speaker 3: next generation, heartbreakingly are actually waking up to this and
Speaker 3: actually demanding action, which is incredible, right, you know, it's
Speaker 3: actually this idea of actually they want action, and it's
Speaker 3: forcing a lot of the world to actually wake up
Speaker 3: and say, oh, yeah, can't just carry on as normal
Speaker 3: and it'll be fine because yeah, well I won't be
Speaker 3: around for much longer and then it's your problem. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I think you know, there was there's an interview
Speaker 3: where we did it wonderful a wonderful Bill Bill mckibbon,
Speaker 3: who's been around since I was a teenager. And Bill
Speaker 3: makes this really valid point. He says, you know, the
Speaker 3: sort of argument is, oh, the youth can sort it out,
Speaker 3: it's their problem. If everyone's sought it, that's fine. But
Speaker 3: the problem is, as he says, you know, actually they
Speaker 3: haven't got the money, they haven't got my relationships, they
Speaker 3: don't understand how the politics works. At the same level,
Speaker 3: they don't have vote the power to actually do anything
Speaker 3: about it until they reach the age of the old
Speaker 3: people saying the older people saying, oh, you sort it out.
Speaker 3: And so we've got to work across different generations to
Speaker 3: actually crack this, because it's not enough just for you
Speaker 3: to say, oh, it's your problem, you sort it if
Speaker 3: you're really not worried about it, you know. And I
Speaker 3: think that's actually quite inspirational bill you know, is doing
Speaker 3: this thing a group called Third Act, which is basically
Speaker 3: putting people LOLd of a sixty in contact and helping
Speaker 3: that younger gen z actually drive those changes. So people
Speaker 3: are listening sight the older persuasion. Check out Third Act.
Speaker 3: It's a great way of getting involved. And then what
Speaker 3: you can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and doctor Vansstra makes the point that unhappiness is
Speaker 1: not like it's natural, like it's understandable given what young
Speaker 1: people are dealing.
Speaker 2: With as the social media, because of social media, because
Speaker 2: of social media, that's and not wanting to work.
Speaker 1: And but that's right, they're lazy and social media and
Speaker 1: those are the main things. And there might be the
Speaker 1: climate thing. No obviously, like there's this massive existential threat
Speaker 1: to the species. And it feels a little crazy making
Speaker 1: to be living, entering into this world where everyone's like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, but you guys got it, so we didn't
Speaker 1: happiness this you've done happiness and the anger is actually
Speaker 1: the proropriate response.
Speaker 3: It's absolutely And then and then the question is what
Speaker 3: do you do with that? And that's where you need
Speaker 3: to actually focus out and say, okay, let's drive action. Yes,
Speaker 3: don't just reflect on that and get worse. Actually we
Speaker 3: can actually make a big difference. But yeah, it's a
Speaker 3: huge challenge, but you're right, it's a natural response to that.
Speaker 1: Who would get angry exactly? All right? Well, Chris, what
Speaker 1: a pleasure having you on the Daily Gust. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you? Follow you here? You are the good stuff?
Speaker 3: Ah well, we're welcome. I'm on Instagram for Prof. Chris
Speaker 3: Attorney and those of them on LinkedIn as well. I'm
Speaker 3: on the same name as well, so please reach out.
Speaker 3: But check out the podcast I'm Fucking the Future and
Speaker 3: hope you enjoy it. It's it's got solutions out there.
Speaker 3: We can do this. So thanks for all a huge
Speaker 3: amount for your time. It's been great fun. Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: Great having you on. Is there a work of media
Speaker 1: that you've been enjoying. I think you've mentioned a couple
Speaker 1: you've enjoyed.
Speaker 3: So the one thing I'm really enjoying is Yellow Dot
Speaker 3: Studios with the great Adam McKay. Honestly, people want a
Speaker 3: little bit of light humor but also get some inspiration
Speaker 3: for what you can do. There's a lot of really short,
Speaker 3: quirky movies and satire there that's just like getting people activated,
Speaker 3: but one with Rain Wilson Vogue with Fire and Ice
Speaker 3: for the Game of Thrones. One that is just a
Speaker 3: fantastic spoof and you can find out about the House
Speaker 3: of Excell Mobile and work out how to how to
Speaker 3: find those solutions. So great fun, but of humor goes
Speaker 3: an awfully long way.
Speaker 1: There you go. We will look after that in the footnotes, Blake,
Speaker 1: where can people find you as their working media?
Speaker 2: You've been enjoying I just listened to Unfucking the Future
Speaker 2: today and honestly it was I love it. It's such
Speaker 2: a good podcast and does leave you feeling better, which
Speaker 2: is which is great. It's very fun. Also, there was
Speaker 2: a tweet that I was that I was enjoying work.
Speaker 2: There is that picture of Trump where what if it
Speaker 2: was just this? I like that picture of Trump ordering
Speaker 2: all the milkshakes at the Chick fil A. Now there
Speaker 2: was someone took a screenshot of that and said, like,
Speaker 2: what do you notice about their reaction the people working
Speaker 2: at the store, And then at Die Workwear wrote I
Speaker 2: will tell you what I noticed, and then he did
Speaker 2: a thread dissecting Donald Trump's suit and why it's not
Speaker 2: fashionable in all the errors that he's done that makes
Speaker 2: the suit make him look worse than if he had
Speaker 2: actually just tailored it correctly. So it was at a
Speaker 2: d I E W O R K W E A R.
Speaker 2: Then also you didn't ask, but where can they find me?
Speaker 2: At Blake Wexler Maybe you did? Maybe Sorry, I've been
Speaker 2: having so much trouble listening to you today and it's
Speaker 2: the worst co host of I really this I miss
Speaker 2: so much today on a Blake Wexler on social media,
Speaker 2: and then I am doing stand up on the road
Speaker 2: coming up Cincinnati this week April eighteenth to the twenty first,
Speaker 2: Philadelphia April twenty seventh, Brooklyn the twenty eighth, and then Bristol, Tennessee,
Speaker 2: May Tempt to the eleventh, And all those dates are
Speaker 2: on Blake Wexler dot com at slash live dash dates.
Speaker 3: Amazing.
Speaker 1: There, go see Blake in person. You really have to
Speaker 1: see him in person, so don't. Yeah, it's really like
Speaker 1: you get it in person more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a similar situation where because of the fruit
Speaker 2: smashing I have, like you know, there's gonna be a tarp.
Speaker 1: I really need to see you need to get with
Speaker 1: the little bits of watermelon to really yet extra.
Speaker 2: No, No, what's actually it does. Yeah, it costs me
Speaker 2: to be honest, that's a lot of overhead for the fruit,
Speaker 2: the produce transportation between the dates and my mallet that
Speaker 2: I have to check.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore o
Speaker 1: Brian tweet. I've been enjoying Jason Pargan, former guest former
Speaker 1: co host of The Cracks podcast, has just been doing
Speaker 1: this running thing about how what you know, one of
Speaker 1: the greatest Hollywood mysteries from any movie is from the
Speaker 1: movie The Town and how nobody can figure out what
Speaker 1: what town it takes place in, which is my friends
Speaker 1: that I ever it's so over the top, like they're
Speaker 1: like every single like everybody's got like Boston shirts on
Speaker 1: in Boston hats, and they're like they call Fenway the Cathedral,
Speaker 1: Like my friends and I always talked about, like joked
Speaker 1: about how over the top it was, and like how
Speaker 1: they just smashed you over the head, like calling Fenway
Speaker 1: were Robin the Cathedral, bro is so absurd. But this
Speaker 1: is just the greatest. I just love it. Very dry
Speaker 1: and funny from Jason Pargin Jason K. Pargen on Twitter.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore Obrian.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeikeeist for
Speaker 1: at d Daily Zeicheist on Instagram. We have a Facebook
Speaker 1: fan page and a website, Dailyzeikeguys dot com where we
Speaker 1: post our episodes and our footnotes where we link up
Speaker 1: to the information that we talked about in today's episode,
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy.
Speaker 1: Super producer Justin Connor, is there a song that you
Speaker 1: think people might enjoy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a really fun track.
Speaker 5: It's got this squelcheese sounding bass and some sexy falsetto
Speaker 5: vocals that's very reminiscent of like some seventies funk mixed
Speaker 5: with modern R and B. It's starting to get warmer
Speaker 5: out in some places, so this would be a nice
Speaker 5: track for a cookout or something like that. But this
Speaker 5: is Mango by Comu and Adie Oasis and you can
Speaker 5: find that song in the footnotes foot notes.
Speaker 1: The Daily zaich Guy is a production of iHeartRadio. For
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app
Speaker 1: Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows. That
Speaker 1: is to do it for us this morning, back this
Speaker 1: afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we will
Speaker 1: talk to you all then Bye.