1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: This is a classic episode for the week, and Uh, 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: to tell you the truth, this is an episode that 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: we were We weren't able to solve this one, but 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: it's a great question. Oh yeah, we um took some stuff. 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: We huddled around a campfire and we wanted to see 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: if we could create religion. It didn't work out, but 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: maybe maybe you know, great apes back in the day 8 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: found some strange mushrooms laying on the ground and that's 9 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: what created religion. What do you think did hallucinogens create religion? 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: All right, we'll tune in, folks. This is the one 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: where where Matt and I try to nail down the 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,559 Speaker 1: answer and end up with more questions. Uh, please do 13 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: right in and let us know if you are having 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: a religious experience of your own. From UFOs to psychic 15 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: powers and government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They 17 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Hello, and welcome back to 18 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: the show. My name is Matt. My name isn't known. 19 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: They call me Ben and you are you that makes 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: this stuff? They don't want you to know. The gang's 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: all here. The gang is all here, uh, and we're 22 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: talking about something that a lot of people have some 23 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: very passionate opinions on. Yes, and this is that old 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: disclaimer that we make in front of every podcast that 25 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: has to do with anything religious or belief system that 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: is held tightly, and that is that we are not 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: telling you what to believe. Beliefs are your own. Yes, 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: there will be no poo pooing of faith. Yes, every 29 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: single person as a right to their own personal spiritual beliefs. 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: Two posit otherwise would be at the very least not 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: well thought out correct. And it's kind of the and 32 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: and an athemat to what we do overall. We're not 33 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: here to tell you what's what. We're here to look 34 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: at some sides of issues and presented all as fairly 35 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: and balanced. Lee, is that a word is American English? 36 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: Everything is the word. I couldn't agree more so. So 37 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: we're gonna do is examine the history of one particular religion, 38 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: look at some you know, sides to it that maybe 39 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: aren't explored very often in your daily ongoings. Yeah, it's 40 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: very important. We're looking at this from an historical academic perspective. 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: We want to give a shout out to a friend 42 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: of the show longtime listener Henry h who gave us 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: this idea. You might remember him from our previous episode 44 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,119 Speaker 1: on the FBI and counter culture and our whole disclaim 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: or thing. Basically, I feel like we're what we're always 46 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: implying is science hoologists in the audience. Oh man. We 47 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: left how her disclaimer on that last episode, though it 48 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: should have said don't do drugs. I know, speaking speaking, yes, 49 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: everyone listening, we discourage you from doing drugs. Uh outrightly, 50 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 1: we cannot legally tell you that drugs are cool. Most importantly, though, 51 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: we were joking and we said we were on drugs 52 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: doing that. Oh yeah, that is very true. That was 53 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: a joke based on and I know you guys probably 54 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: know this, but we just had to say it again. 55 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: We were sleep deprived, me less so than these fellas, 56 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: but we were playing off of that sleep deprived vibe 57 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: and writing that like a crazy snake to Valhalla. And yeah, 58 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: I hope everyone was aware of that. If not, and 59 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: you thought we were dosing up in the studio, I'm 60 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: here to tell you otherwise. And we we appreciate all 61 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: the emails we got. We had several people right in 62 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: and say, hey, just be sleep deprived all the time, 63 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: but nol did a great job editing because the raw 64 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: form had some that was brutal. Yeah, yeah, slippery. So 65 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: here we are religion. The big are the earliest evidence 66 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 1: of religious ideas dates back hundreds of thousands of years, 67 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: all the way back to what is commonly called the 68 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: Middle and Lower Paleolithic periods. And just for some perspective here, 69 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: the average creature qualifying as human during this time would 70 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: probably disturb you if you just saw them walking on 71 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:38,679 Speaker 1: the street today at least, wouldn't recognize them as human. Well, 72 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: even if they were wearing, you know, the clothes that 73 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: you yourself were wearing, you would you would notice some obvious, 74 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: obvious differences. And we don't want to get too too 75 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: caught up in this, but we did an episode on 76 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: what are called the like lost races of humanity, such 77 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: as Dennis Ouvans, looking at differences between Homo rectus and 78 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens, Neanderthal and Homo flunzis. Those the little uh 79 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: huh yeah, the skeleton have been found on on just 80 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: a very small patch of the world, and the current 81 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: the current debate is whether it was a true speciation 82 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: of some sort or whether it was just a community 83 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: condition for last a better word. So do check that 84 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: out if you haven't checked it out before. And there's 85 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: another there's another thing that's really interesting. You can hear. Uh. 86 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: You can hear our colleague and occasional guest on the 87 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: show Joe McCormick, who works over its stuff to blow 88 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: your mind, uh, when he and his co host Robert 89 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: Lamb did an episode on what is called the bicameral mind. 90 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: This is crazy. There's this theory that for part of 91 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: human civilization, people were not self where the way you 92 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: are now, Like, if you're listening to this, you're thinking 93 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: in your head, maybe I am listening to this right, 94 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 1: just just thought that sentence, right, and then the words 95 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: that you hear are translated into your own thoughts. Yeah, 96 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: like an internal model. I usually just see them visually 97 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: as like letters in a cartoon spelled out in the sky. 98 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: You know, you know, No, I think it makes sense. 99 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: You got the you got the word balloons that time. 100 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: I think I might be working with a tri cameral mind. 101 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 1: So what happens is the idea is that in in 102 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: the distant past of civilization, instead of hearing a voice 103 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: in your head and thinking, that's my internal dialogue, that's 104 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: my internal dialogue. These early people would hear a voice 105 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: and they would think, holy crap, somebody's talking to me. 106 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: Who who is that in my head? Uh? What are you? 107 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: Why are you? Are you there? Are you there? God? 108 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: It's me Kraigner, you know? And uh. And one piece 109 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: of evidence for folks who believe this is the dramatically 110 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: different writing style of the Iliad. In the Iliad, classical 111 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: scholars amongst us will remember it was written somewhere between 112 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: eight hundred and seven b C or b C E, 113 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: whatever your favorite flavor is. U. Characters just sort of 114 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: do things, you know, and their motivations for a large 115 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: part of this story aren't kind of not present to 116 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: something happens. Things just happen. And since we know, Greek 117 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: culture very quickly became a literature of consciousness. Uh. The 118 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: Iliad is sometimes seen as a great turning point, tipping 119 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: point shout out to Malcolm Gladwell. Uh, and a window 120 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: back into what they call the unsubjective times. And every 121 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: kingdom was at theocracy, and every man was the slave 122 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: of voices heard whenever novel situations occur. That's crazy and religion. 123 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: It might also predate humanity, depending on how you define religion. Right, so, 124 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: higher order mammals like cetaceans a new word, fancy word 125 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: for dolphins and uh, whales that I just learned, Um, elephants, canines, 126 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: they all recognize the difference between a living thing and 127 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: a corpse. Hopefully you can as well. Uh. Millennia before 128 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: Homo sapiens existed, UM, its predecessors and parallels practiced some 129 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: form of ancestral recognition, which is an understanding that the 130 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: body was nothing but a vessel for the mind or 131 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: an idea. UM. And then archaeologists referred to apparent intentional 132 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: burials of early Homo sapiens from as early as three 133 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: hundred thousand years ago as evidence of religious beliefs, which 134 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: makes sense to me, right, Yeah, they realize that something 135 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: was there, there is a ritual going yeah, and then 136 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: it's not and ritual occurs. Other evidence of religious ideas 137 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: include symbolic artifacts from the Middle middles Stone Age sites 138 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: in Africa. But of course it's kind of tricky to 139 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: interpret this. You know, even even in the best case scenario, 140 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: there's room for interpretation, which is going to be important 141 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: as we explore this. Archaeological evidence from more recent periods 142 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: is less controversial. Number of artifacts from the Upper Paleolithic 143 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: are generally interpreted by scientists as representing religious ideas, meaning, 144 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: in general, a bunch really smart people who have spent 145 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: their lives figuring out what this stone shard means all 146 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: got on the same page and said, you know, cool, 147 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: they knew he was dead and they did a thing. Yeah. Well, 148 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: I suppose you could also argue that with enough experience, 149 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: you know, you might realize that a dead thing starts 150 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: to be gross and we should probably just get it 151 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: out of sight and out of mind, or it makes 152 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: you sad, so you don't want to look at anymore. 153 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: So let's PERI in the hole in the ground, just 154 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: Devil's advocating. Now, that's an very you know, that's a 155 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: very good idea, because you know, many animals, if I 156 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: remember their pure group or their mate or their offspring dies, 157 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 1: they just leave. I'm just like, all right, but I 158 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: like it here. I don't want to have to look 159 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: at dead, rotting grand mob for the rest of you know, 160 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: until for the foreseeable future. Let's let's get her out 161 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: of let's bury her in this upit. Uh yeah, there 162 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: are people who know there, there are people who keep 163 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: keep the remains of their loved ones. And Faulkner has 164 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: a great story about it. But of course spoilers just 165 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: in case for a year old story. Well, okay, so spoilers. 166 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: So we talked about these, let's let's talk about like 167 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: examples of things that are clearly agreed to be religious. 168 00:10:53,360 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: The venus figurines are you know, rather voluptuous, often headless 169 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: figure right certainly looks headless. All of the examples that 170 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: I've seen, and there are elaborate burial rituals around the world, 171 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: there are cave paintings. But where did this all come from? 172 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: That's today's question. What prompted early humanity or it's close 173 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: predecessors and parallels? Has Moll said to ascribe occurrences in 174 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: the physical world to the winds and the systems something unsuitable? 175 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: Is it drugs? Maybe? Well? Yeah, what connected the either 176 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: the bicamera mind, what connected the parts of the brain 177 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: that were previously not connected or you know, was it 178 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: just an evolutionary thing or was it a chemical yeah? 179 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: Or was it a social thing? Is essentially we're not sure, 180 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: Like we as a species. They're they're kind of still 181 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: tossing this one around, spitballing. But there's theories, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, 182 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: there's theories. Uh, let's call one. We had to do it. 183 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: H d oh, it's not it's not funny for you 184 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: guys yet, because you're listening and you don't. It's funny 185 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: if you read it. This is a theory that was 186 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: put forth by Kelly James Clark. He's a senior research 187 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: fellow at Kaufman Interfaith Institute at Grand Valley State University 188 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: in Michigan. Oh, that is a mouthful a lot. So. 189 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: He believes that humans on the Serengetti who quote survived 190 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: to procreate were those who had developed what evolutionary scientists 191 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: call a hypersensitive agency detecting device or had H a 192 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: d D becomes in a fourth dimensional pun so in 193 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: basic terms, in plain terms, this meant that people who 194 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: are more likely to survive and reproduce, reproduce and pass 195 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: on their experiences as well as their genes were people 196 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: who perceived that many other things in the world external 197 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: things have agency, and what we mean by that is 198 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: the ability to act of their own cord I have agency. 199 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: Other things have agency, Like, like, what else what would 200 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: have agency? Animals walking around might be the one of 201 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: the first things you notice secret agents other humans secret 202 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: very didn't say human secret ages like Perry the platypus 203 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: on Phineas and firm he's a secret agent with agency 204 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: who was also a platypus. I gotta tell you, I 205 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: don't know what that is. It's a great show. It's 206 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: like a kid's show, but adults like it too, all right, 207 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of like an Adventure Time thing. Right, Yeah, it's 208 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: a Disney show, but it's actually very clever. It's very 209 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: well written. Looking into it, do it while looking into it, 210 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: you'll you'll notice that this this had h a d D. 211 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: This understanding of how the world worked facilitated this rapid 212 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: decision making process that people had to go through when they, 213 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: for instance, heard rustling in the grass. So yeah, perfect, 214 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: not so much stopping to reflect on the transants of 215 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: life as going, holy smokes, lions do what they want. 216 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: I better run. I love that picture of the some 217 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: of the first humans understanding that that lion can come 218 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: over here and attack me at any time. Not just 219 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: oh there's a lion, not just the grass moves, but 220 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: the grass moves because because so that's the kicker, right. 221 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: In addition to helping humans make rational decisions, survival based decisions, 222 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: had may have planted the seeds for what we know 223 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: as religious thought. Is it sort of like object permanence 224 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: where it's sort of like, you know, that thing will 225 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: always behave in that way, or that thing is only 226 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: behaving this way at this moment that I'm observing it. Yes, 227 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: So sort of like that if a tree falls in 228 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: the forest and you're not around, doesn't make a sound, 229 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: or it's like if that if my mom is there 230 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: behind that bush, is she really not there? Yeah? Yeah, 231 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: those are important distincts, That's what I'm saying, Like, well, 232 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: those are things that we come to psychologically as we 233 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: grow older. But it's important what we're talking about, you know, 234 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: in terms of evolution, to make those distinctions that allow 235 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: us to actually learn from our mistakes. And it's absolutely crucial, 236 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: and it's one of those early developmental milestones, right like 237 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: when when your children are growing up, there are really 238 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: sensitive times in the early years when all of a 239 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: sudden they have that Eureka moment and you see it happen. Yeah, 240 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: I've seen it firsthand. Recently with my kids, especially with mirrors, 241 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: little things like that. We don't have to go into 242 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: it anyway, it's cool, but mirrors are weird, agreed. So 243 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't just animals and other things moving around that 244 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: they ascribed agency to. They also ascribed it to things. Sure, 245 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: these rain drops now are falling on purpose on droptops, 246 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: but but yeah, things that absolutely don't have agency, like 247 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: drop tops. I don't know the first human drop. You 248 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: gotta make the top drop drop on its own drop top. 249 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: You got to apply something drops the top though, Right, 250 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: So when the rainfalls, like something dropped that rain, what 251 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: was it? Yeah, like creation demands a creator? Yeah exactly. 252 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: I mean we're sitting in this room right now recording 253 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: this and wait, some someone is going to cut to 254 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: an ad break. It's me and we're back. But who 255 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: was it? It was? It was me? It was definitely 256 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: it was I got it. You don't see it happen. 257 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: That's the magic of podcasting. That part happens away from 258 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: your prying eyes. In the same way that some sort 259 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: of prime mover creates her deity dropped the drops on 260 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: the tops? What drop? But where does the drop ultimately 261 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: dropped here's another theory about religion. What if instead of 262 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: a single individual um adaptation or Shamalan plot twist and 263 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,199 Speaker 1: the story of humanity, But if it's not just a 264 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,719 Speaker 1: story about things that apply to individuals reproducing, What if 265 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: religion is more of a group adaptation. Oh, I could 266 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: go along with that. This is an idea by Robin Dunbar, 267 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: and evolutionary psychologist and anthropologist at the University of Oxford 268 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: in the UK. His work focuses mostly on the behavior 269 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: of primates, including you know, things like baboons. Why does 270 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: he sound familiar to me? I think you know? No, 271 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: I don't. He is the famous proponent of something called 272 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: Dunbar's number. Ah, you made a video on this, yes, 273 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: and we talked about this on the show too. And 274 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: it's the idea that the human brain is physiologically limited. 275 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: Think about for anyone who works with computers extensively, think 276 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: about the physiological hardware limits of a computer. There's some 277 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: software it can't run, there are some things that it 278 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: doesn't have enough memory to store. Right. We run into 279 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: this often, as you can imagine daily. What was his number? 280 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: Is it a hundred something? It was two on four, six, five, three, no, no, no, okay, yes, 281 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: I think it's yeah one eight eight eight, you know, 282 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: just keep it, Nate, it was it was a hundred 283 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: and fifty maybe. Yeah, humans that you can ever really 284 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: maintain a relationship with or see as a peer. Yes. 285 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: And then after see as you know, the way that 286 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: you see your friends, you understand that they are the 287 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: main characters of their own story. And no matter how 288 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: close you are, you are a cameo. You are a 289 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: secondary character and everybody else's story. And after that number, 290 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: your brain is just incapable of understanding that those other 291 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: people past that, like number three hundred and forty seven 292 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: that you meet, is just the thing that takes the 293 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: garbage out, or the thing that walks by you on 294 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: the way to the bus every morning, the thing that 295 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: runs the justice department, the thing that you vote for. 296 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: You know. It's a scary idea. But Dunbar also applies 297 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: this thinking to your religion. Um, and that he says 298 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: that religion may have actually evolved as what he calls 299 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: a group level adaptation, which we mentioned before religion being 300 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: a quote kind of glue that holds society together. Um. 301 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: We've also heard it as referred to as the opiate 302 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: of the mass is a similar yet antithetical notion to 303 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: that in an interesting way. Yeah, perfect, because it is like, 304 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: that's religion and ideology. A value system is a way 305 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: for number three seven to have something in common with you. 306 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: You know. Now, it's not just the thing in the 307 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: justice department or the thing that cooks the food. It's 308 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: also the thing that believes what I believe. Yeah, yes, exactly. 309 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: And there's one more theory. It is one of the 310 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: most controversial theories. Do we need another disclaimer? Um, if 311 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: you if you're feeling uncomfortable at this point, stick your 312 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: fingers in your ears. No, yes, do that, and then 313 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: also rewind back to that part where we had a disclaimer, 314 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: and then come back here just to reassure yourself. Here's 315 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: the question, what if the original inspiration for some of 316 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: the world's most influential religions was ultimately not evolution but hallucinogens. WHOA, 317 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: that's right, magic mushrooms, psilocybin, simple simon. Have we already 318 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: said psilocybin. Let's say it again. I think that's where 319 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: simple simon comes from, because it kind of sounds like psilocybin. Yeah, 320 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: how about those Mario make big bites God's flesh. Did 321 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: you make that last one out? I don't know. Is 322 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: that in the vernacular it's a mushroom? Okay it is. Now. 323 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: I love mushrooms. Now when I say that, I mean 324 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: I love delicious mushroombe portobellosaki is trumpeters, the weird ones, 325 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: the weird, bulbous looking ones. But as we know, when 326 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: you grow them a certain way, certain species, they can 327 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: make They get a little funny, make you think, make 328 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: you feel a little funny, think a little funny, see 329 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: things a little differently. Here's where it gets crazy. In 330 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 1: his book The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, an author 331 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: named John Marco Allegro argues that quote our present concern 332 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: is to show that Judaism and Christianity are cultic expressions 333 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: of an endless pursuit by man to discover instant power 334 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: and not knowledge. Granted the first proposition that the vital 335 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: forces of nature are controlled by an extra terrestrial intelligence, 336 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: these religions are logical developments from older, cruder fertility cults. 337 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: With the advance of technical proficiencies, the aim of religious 338 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: ritual became less to influence the weather and the crops 339 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: than to attain wisdom and the knowledge of the future. Essentially, 340 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: his argument is that modern religions, especially the Abramaic ones, Judaism, Christianity, 341 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: Islam of Islam to a degree, sprang from these ancient 342 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: fertility cults. I gotta pause really fast here and just 343 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: point out that I've never thought in my head about 344 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: a religion as focusing on an extra terrestrial intelligence, as 345 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: an um an intelligence that is not on earth or 346 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: of earth. Even when you say it that way, isn't 347 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: that with like all religion, Yeah, it is, it is, 348 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: But I've never I've never used it. I've never used 349 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: the phrase extra terrestrial intelligence in that manner of thinking 350 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: about what God could be or is. Extraterrestrial has become 351 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: very specific in our time, at least in our version 352 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: of this language. It's become this kind of like there's 353 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: like hocum surrounding it to the point where you can't 354 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: use it in a way that people don't sort of 355 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: like turn their noses up at in a way, you 356 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I don't know, like not all people. Obviously, 357 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: let people listen to the show, and we are, you know, 358 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: into that those explorations, But the term extraterrestrial, which when 359 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: it really just means not of this Earth, has become 360 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: sort of a buzz phrase that has negative connotations in 361 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: terms of like its use in veracity. But I think 362 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: it's totally applicable to what God is, to what religion is, 363 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: to what these deities actually are. They're totally extraterrestrials in 364 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: many ways. In many ways, people regardless of the particular religion, 365 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: would say this is something beyond us to some degree 366 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: incomprehensible or dawned, difficult to comprehend. Allegro goes on and 367 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: he argues that these ancient cults had knowledge of psychoactive 368 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: drugs and plant form, but they prevented this knowledge from 369 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: becoming two widespread. They were the shaman, you know, and 370 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: they were the priests, and the quote is quote. These 371 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: were the drug herbs, the science of whose cultivation and 372 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: use had been accumulated over centuries of observation and dangerous experiment. 373 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: Those who had this secret wisdom of the plants were 374 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: the chosen of their God to them alone, had he 375 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: vouchsafed the privilege of access to the heavenly throne, and 376 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: if he was jealous of his power, no less were 377 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: those who served him in the cultic mysteries. Theirs was 378 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: no gospel to be shouted from the rooftops. Paradise was 379 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: for none but the favored few. The incantations and rights 380 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: by which they conjured forth their drug plants, and the 381 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:54,239 Speaker 1: details of the bodily and mental preparations undergone before they 382 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: could ingest their God were the secrets of the cult, 383 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: to which none the initiate, bound by fearful oaths, had access. 384 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: That reminds me of ayahuasca rituals, that, like that, takes 385 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: the laborious thing to create the substance that will take 386 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: you on this spiritual trip, and the and the ritual 387 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: of ingestion is as important as the substance itself. In 388 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: times of war, though the widespread social disruption, something happened. 389 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 1: This These um orally transmitted mysteries became difficult to transmit right. 390 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: People were dying, people were being imprisoned and slaved, slaughtered 391 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: and mass So the priests had to write this knowledge down, 392 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: And Allegro's idea is that they wrote it down in 393 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: an esoteric or coded form that only another priest, only 394 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: another initiate, would recognize and be able to translate essentially, 395 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: if you're going to teach someone else about this, And 396 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: Allegro argues that the specific instance where this occurred the 397 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: turning point was the Jewish revolt of sixty six eight 398 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: sixty six, and we have a quote on that one too, 399 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: Instigated probably by members of the cult swayed by their 400 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: drug induced madness to believe God and called them to 401 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: master the world in his name. They provoked the mighty 402 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: power of Rome to swift and terrible action. Jerusalem was ravaged, 403 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 1: her temple destroyed, Judaism was disrupted, and her people driven 404 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: to seek refuge. With communities already established around the Mediterranean 405 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: coast lands, the Mystery cults found themselves without a central 406 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: fount of authority, with many of their priests killed in 407 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: the abortive rebellion or driven into the desert. The secrets, 408 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 1: if they were not to be lost forever, had to 409 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: be committed to writing, and if found, the documents must 410 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: give nothing away or betray those who had dared to 411 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: defy the Roman authorities. So this need for coded communication 412 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: about the use of sacred plants and the performance of 413 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: sacred rituals. Then again, we cannot emphasize this enough. According 414 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: to this author. According to Allegro, it led to the 415 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: creation of a rabbi named Jesus, to tell the story 416 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: of a rabbi called Jesus and invest him with the 417 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: power and names of this magic drug, to have him 418 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: live before the terrible events that had disrupted their lives, 419 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: to preach a love between men, extending even to the 420 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: hated Romans. Thus, reading such a tale, should it fall 421 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 1: into Roman hands, even their mortal enemies might be deceived 422 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: and not probe farther into the activities of the cells 423 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 1: of the mystery cults within their territories. Oh it sounds 424 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: so cool. Grand conspiracy, And this guy Allegro acknowledges that 425 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: his sub diffuge failed, as evidenced by the majority of 426 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: Christians who believe Jesus Christ was an historical figure, not 427 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: a metaphor for a psycho go active drug in some 428 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:06,439 Speaker 1: sort of mystery religion. But what drug was it, you 429 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 1: might wonder. We have one last quote. Above all they 430 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: forgot or purged from the cult in their memories, the 431 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: one supreme secret on which their whole religious and ecstatic 432 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 1: experience depended, the names and identity of the source of 433 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: the drug. The key to heaven, the sacred mushroom, the 434 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: fungus recognized today as the Amanita muscaria or the fly 435 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: a garrick. So let's take a moment, guys, what do 436 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: you think you want to do? Some pros and cons? 437 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: It sounds like all prose to me. Speaking of all prose, 438 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: his argument hinges on pros or more specifically atomology. Yeah, 439 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: we're we're getting weird with the puns today. It relates 440 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: the development language to the development of myths and religions 441 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: and cultic practices. So, for example, he relates mushrooms to 442 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: fertility or experience of the divine, So he's connecting it 443 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: to the phrase son of God. He's arguing that since 444 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: he's tracing this back to fertility cults, he's arguing that 445 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: the mushroom, by being an encounter with the divine, was 446 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: seen as, you know, the offspring of God, and in 447 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: some ways it might be seen as like a reproductive fluid, 448 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: in other ways might be seen as the flesh of 449 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: this of this extraterrestrial divine creature. He believes ancient evidence 450 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: about the other phrases used to refer to this stuff 451 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: will bear out the argument, and he does acknowledge that 452 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: it's largely concerned with words and titles, and he believes 453 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: that only when we discover the nomenclature of the sacred 454 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: fungus within and without the cult can we begin to 455 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: understand its function and the theology behind it. So you know, 456 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: this leads into naturally the concept that eat of my flesh. 457 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: He also talks about the visual similarities between uh iconic 458 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: depictions of the crucifixion and the shape of a mushroom. 459 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: I feel like that's kind of a stretch, but I mean, 460 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: I get it unless we not forget that a mushroom 461 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: does bear some resemblance to a phallus male reproductive organiz 462 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: thallus thallus in Wonderland, gotta say, specifically circumcised in most 463 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: mushroom cases. Lewis Carroll is such a creep. I just 464 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: want to put that out there. Did you know that 465 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: part of his diary pages were torn out and destroyed? 466 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: It was death because they were that it was too 467 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: hot for TV. We'll never know. There's also the idea 468 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: of manna from heaven being the bread of a life 469 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: that comes from God himself itself. Mm hmmm, yeah, Yeah, 470 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: that's that's something that mystifies a lot of people, especially 471 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: growing up with a belief system. A lot of people, 472 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, think that manna is something on a tree 473 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: like an apple or you know, a other fruit orange. Sure, yes, 474 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: wasn't it like a like the way you regained health 475 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: in the Final Fantasy Games? Wasn't that manna? I think? So? 476 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: It was definitely magic in Skyrom. In most RPGs and 477 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: games I play, manna is yeah, your magic power which 478 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: comes from this. I mean, it's this idea that it's 479 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: sort of a replenishing spiritual force, that it can be 480 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: squandered and regained or sort of feeds your spiritual life 481 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: force in some way. In Magic the Gathering, you have 482 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: to tap your manna and make use of all the 483 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: land that you control to cast spells. More of a 484 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: Pokemon game, d Lloyd. Now I'm kidding. I actually want 485 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: to get into that. If I've recently with the kid, 486 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: she's finally got the attention span for games like that, 487 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm the one who just wants to force 488 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: her into it because I want to do it. I 489 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: need someone to play with. So that we've been playing Pokemon, 490 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna try to graduate her magic gathering. Oh 491 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: my gosh, Tyler's okay, you guys will know who Tyler is. 492 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: He's another producer here. His kid is like getting hard 493 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: on the paint and with the Pokemon cards, and both 494 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: of us are just banking that he's gonna be ready 495 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: to play magic with us. Isn't really expensive? Yeah? Is that? Though? 496 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: We have like three decks, and you know, I bought 497 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: a couple of booster packs, but our decks are pretty 498 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: well masked. I think what happens is you get tired 499 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: of seeing the same cards over and over again, or 500 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: you need to like fit your trick your deck out 501 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: so that you, you know, can defeat someone that has 502 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: a super tricked out deck. But we digress and we 503 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,239 Speaker 1: progress as well. So the the weird thing is all right. 504 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: We know we're fully conscious of the fact that this 505 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: sounds like maybe comformation bias. Maybe this guy just really 506 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: wants to see it. Uh. But there are numerous paintings 507 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: of religious uh moments in the Old Testament. In the 508 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: New Testament, they clearly depict mushrooms. There's a thirteenth century 509 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: chapel in France. In there there's a clear depiction of 510 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: Adam and Eve and the next to a tree. It's 511 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: very Garden of Eden, but the tree is made out 512 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: of Emminita muscaria mushrooms and the serpents coiling around the tree. 513 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: It seems weird, right that this would be the most 514 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: arguably one of the most famous stories in the Bible, Right, Yeah, 515 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: the when Adam and Eve betrayed God ate the fruit 516 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: that it was like the only thing you're not supposed 517 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: to do appear that fruit? Well, apparently it was there 518 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: are you know, there are a lot of beliefs that 519 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: the fruit itself was knowledge of like what I am? 520 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: You know, I am Eve? Have you tasted pure knowledge? 521 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: It's that fruit? Well, in this case, what if it 522 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: was the key? That the key that unlocked all of 523 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: the mysteries. That's good. I like that, especially compared to 524 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 1: those quotes we were reading earlier. I mean ingesting something, 525 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: you know, like whether it's a metaphor or a stand 526 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: in for like enlightenment, but the idea that maybe it's not, 527 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: maybe it's an actual substance. Well, yeah, it's again. I 528 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: go back to the invisibles because Ben, thank you again 529 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: for introducing me to that. But the there's a substance 530 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: in there, right, that allows access to a higher level 531 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: of some sort in it, and it's some kind of hallucinogen. 532 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: It's like an where the guy likes the homeless guy 533 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: who kind of takes him on as a really kid. 534 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 1: He like smokes something, and then all of a sudden 535 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: they're like through the looking glass. Yeah, this, uh, this 536 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: idea is you know, um, this idea exists on several 537 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: different levels metaphorical literal. As you can see, it's open 538 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: to interpretation, which brings us to some of the cons. 539 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: Not very con not dragon con, comic con. Yeah, so 540 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: many cons in this case. One big con is that 541 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 1: all major scholars rejected Allegro's idea, and this guy's a legit, 542 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: a legit scholar. His mentor was like, man, what are 543 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: you doing, buddy, And the publisher who published it was like, ah, 544 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have gotten involved. So the full text is 545 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 1: available online, The Sacred Mushroom in the Cross. You can 546 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,919 Speaker 1: read it. Uh, you can read it online. It has 547 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: its own internal argument, it's own internal logic rather, but 548 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: it makes certain jumps assumptions that leave room for criticism 549 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: and invalidation. Just like the guy wrote Chariots of the gods. 550 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: Eric von Dannikin It's easy for people to see what 551 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: they want to see when they look at ancient writing 552 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: and ruins. That's why, you know. In the beginning of 553 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,359 Speaker 1: the show, we talked about how even the most well 554 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: read erudite people will disagree on the purpose or the 555 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 1: intention behind an ancient thing that they found the flotsam 556 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: and jetsam of the world, because many times there's not 557 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: another human or a piece of writing that will will 558 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: come out and give you a definitive answer. So ultimately, 559 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 1: like a lot of things, you're left with your own 560 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: interpretation or the interpretation of somebody who's studied it for 561 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: a long time. But but, but, but, but there's a 562 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: big butt. It is certainly true that many religions have 563 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: had relationships with psychoactive substances. Oh yes, and we will 564 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 1: wade into those psychedelic waters when we get back from this. 565 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:07,959 Speaker 1: Feel like, out of so many shows that we've done, 566 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: this would be the one where we were just inexplicably 567 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: paused for a psychedelic guitar. There we go, You're tuned 568 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: into stuff they don't want you to know. Just just 569 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: keep looping that. In the end, it so so We've 570 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: got some examples of different hallucinens playing a role in 571 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: different religions, not just uh, not just in the abramaic 572 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: stuff that Allegro is talking about, but around the world. 573 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 1: In book nine of the classic Hindu text to the 574 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: rig Vada of this pressed juice called soma is mentioned 575 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: as something that was drunk by priests, and some sort 576 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: of visionary state is reported when you when you ingest 577 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: this stuff, um like this realm where happiness and joy 578 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: and all kinds of things just kind of combine. All 579 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: the good positive things combine, and it's also where longing 580 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: wishes are fulfilled. And some people believe that soma could 581 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: have been a psychedelic mushroom, maybe even amanita our Gordon 582 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: Wasson is a scholar who held this opinion, and in 583 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: Foot of the Gods, Terence mckinnas says that a more 584 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: likely candidate for soma, due to its better efficacy at 585 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: inducing psychedelic states, is a different mushroom, the Psilocybe cobenses. 586 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 1: This is a mushroom that can grow in cow dung 587 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: in certain climates, which may explain why the cow has 588 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: gained such a sacred status in the Hindu tradition, but 589 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: other academics claim that soma was cannabis. You know, and 590 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: I've actually had someone make soma for me before, but 591 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: it was not a hallucinogen. It was just this relaxing route. 592 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: There's also a pharmaceutical drug called Soma that's like a 593 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: muscle relaxer or like an antipsychotic. I want to say, wow, 594 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: I think out as Huxley right, Uh references Soma Brave 595 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 1: New World. You just to confirm what I said before, 596 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 1: Soma is in fact a drug on the market called 597 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: keras so prod all um and its brand name or 598 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: Soma or vana dem And it's a muscle relaxer that 599 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: can block pain to the nerves. So you might take 600 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: it if you have a skeletal muscle issue, back injury, 601 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: or the like. I just think it's interesting this term 602 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: has persevered over the years. Uh. Yeah. And in addition, 603 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: there were other examples. The blue lotus flower was worshiped 604 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: by the ancient Egyptian civilization, and it's now believed that 605 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,479 Speaker 1: this flower had some psychoactive properties itself, maybe a little 606 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: naturally occurring d MT. We've we saw that in our 607 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: exploration of d MT right, there are tons of plants 608 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: that just contain it. I yes, to everyone who's writing 609 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,359 Speaker 1: to us about d m T, we do have uh 610 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: an existing at least a video or two on it. Again, 611 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: dimethyl trip I mean, don't do drugs, even though d 612 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: MT naturally occurs in trace amounts in your own brain. 613 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 1: But don't worry about that. Just keep on keeping on. 614 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 1: And they're mushroom cults in Mesoamerica dating back to at 615 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: least a thousand BC. Uh These are indicated by mushroom 616 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: stone effigies found in the Guatemalan Highlands. In addition, frescoes 617 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: from Central Mexico also show signs of mushroom worship. Then 618 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 1: we get to these things called mystery religions. Matt, that's right. 619 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: The Lucinian mysteries were initiation ceremonies held every year for 620 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: the cult of Demeter and Persephone in ancient Greece. And 621 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: there was this drink called kaikon, and it was consumed, 622 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: which the Iliad says was made up of barley, water, herbs, 623 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,800 Speaker 1: and goat cheese. That sounds disgusting. In the Odyssey, however, 624 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: the character circ adds a magic potion to it, and 625 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: some people have speculated that the barley used in this 626 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: drink was parasitized by ergot that's a fungus that it 627 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: is believed to be responsible for intense experiences people reported 628 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: during these mystery initiations and rituals. And ergot contains ergotamine, 629 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,959 Speaker 1: which is a precursor to l s D. You've also 630 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: maybe heard about this as a proposed cause for uh 631 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,879 Speaker 1: St almost fire and for the Salem Witch trials. Yeah, 632 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 1: and all kinds of other vampire panics throughout the United 633 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: States history. And just to put this out there, I've 634 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: said it before and I'll say it again. Go see 635 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: The Witch, one of my favorite last year. In my opinion, 636 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: this plays a part and that it's up for debate. 637 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: But cool, don't you mean The Witch? The Witch? It's 638 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: titling is really cool. It's like two vs. What is 639 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: that like? To live deliciously? Yep, black. Oh, we haven't 640 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: spoiled it, but we hope we've wetted your appetite for it. 641 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: Right to us. Let us know what you think about 642 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: this movie, because we will literally sit around off air 643 00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: and talk about it. Actually saw it with co worker 644 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 1: fellow podcaster Lauren Vogelbaum of food stuff fame. Uh and 645 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 1: but when it was over, we were both just kind 646 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: of sat there looking at each other like what we 647 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: saw something we weren't supposed to see. I watched it 648 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: alone in my house in the dark, with headphones on, 649 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: and I was unnerved in in the most spectacular way. 650 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: I like to play it while I exercise. Just watch 651 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: the witch while you work out. Yeah, that in the 652 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,680 Speaker 1: shining mm hmm, it just motivates I get it. Well, 653 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: well that's we don't want to get too deep into 654 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,239 Speaker 1: the off air stuff. But yes, the which is completely 655 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: worth your time. So here we are with a cursory 656 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: examination of this theory. Now this make no bones about it. 657 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: This is very controversial. Some indeed found allegros exploration offensive, 658 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: but it is at this point still an exploration. Only 659 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: it's completely possible that psychoactive substances have played crucial roles 660 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: in numerous religions. We know they have. We know they 661 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: have ayahuasca for instance. However, if this specific mushroom did 662 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: play a role in the formation of fertility cults that 663 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: later led to the Abramaic religions, and if the priest 664 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: of the time really did manufacture Jesus Christ, as some 665 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: sort of metaphor or code for these mushrooms, these plants, 666 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 1: and these rituals. Then they clearly failed to preserve their 667 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: original meaning, because, as h No I think you pointed 668 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: out earlier, the vast majority of Christians today do not 669 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: believe this idea. And if preservation of these mysteries was 670 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: the key, wouldn't the priest have wanted people to know? 671 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: Unless that is, of course, the Catholic Church has a 672 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 1: few very very well kept secrets, more than we suspect 673 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: up their sleeves, which I would be I'm I would 674 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,799 Speaker 1: be very surprised, But it's true. The Catholic Church has 675 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: a lot of secrets. That's about to say, they've got 676 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 1: like whole rooms that are just for secrets, right, especially 677 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: fitted to house various shapes and flavors of secrets. Just 678 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: to be fair here, I think if these Mystery Religion 679 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,400 Speaker 1: cult leaders were trying to get all of this stuff 680 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 1: down in this incredibly complex allegory and they're doing mushrooms 681 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: on a consistent basis, I think I think, if it's true, 682 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: they did a pretty darn good job, because I mean, 683 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: the hat tipped to you Mystery Religion priests for keeping 684 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:45,839 Speaker 1: it together with a head full of dreams. Right, we 685 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Have you have you explored 686 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,239 Speaker 1: this idea yourself? What's what's your take on this? Is 687 00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:57,720 Speaker 1: this maybe um, just just a fringe theory where someone's 688 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 1: just out there to be out there on the fringes? 689 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: Is there something to it? Because again, those depictions, those 690 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: those paintings do have clear depictions of mushrooms. But is 691 00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: this author reading too much into it or is there 692 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: something there? Well? I have a lot of thoughts on this. 693 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: You guys, do you listening out there? Do you have 694 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: any ideas or thoughts on this subject? I'm sure you do. 695 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: Have you tried one of these substances and experienced something? 696 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,320 Speaker 1: Maybe don't write to us about that. Maybe that's a 697 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: bad idea. Is that a bad idea? Of course it's 698 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:36,240 Speaker 1: not a bad idea. We will not compromise your identity, 699 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,320 Speaker 1: and if you wish, we will use an alias. Again, 700 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: don't do it. But if you happen to find yourself 701 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: into that position where you've happened to do it, it 702 00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: would be cool to hear about it. Okay, that's not 703 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:50,760 Speaker 1: being irresponsible. We legally cannot tell you to do drugs. 704 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: But if someone you know does send us a message, yep, 705 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: this is probably the one. Speaking of message is it's 706 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 1: time for shut at corners. So we received We received 707 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 1: a lot of feedback on our earlier episode called Lake 708 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,959 Speaker 1: City Quiet Pills. It's just about a Reddit mystery, and 709 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 1: we wanted to share with everyone some of the follow 710 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: up correspondence we had, which really surprised us. We have 711 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: one email that came to us through a blocker, meaning 712 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: that we were able to read it like a like 713 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,160 Speaker 1: what you would read an anonymous post. We do not 714 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: know the identity of this person, which both means we 715 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,280 Speaker 1: cannot verify it and we can't really make any any 716 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,280 Speaker 1: definitive decisions, but we'd like to read it to you. Hello, 717 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Long time listener, 718 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: though never expected to be reaching out, especially not like this. 719 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:55,359 Speaker 1: I had a bit of a personal revelation during your 720 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,799 Speaker 1: episode referencing Lake City Pills. More than ten years ago, 721 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: I walked in on my father sit in a jailbait 722 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: pornographic website. I was aghast, and he screamed that we 723 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,720 Speaker 1: should never speak of it, which made perfect sense to me. However, 724 00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,520 Speaker 1: I was terrified by what he was doing, so I 725 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,200 Speaker 1: installed a key logger on his computer to determine if 726 00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,480 Speaker 1: this was accidental on his part or if I needed 727 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: to reach out to the authorities. The key logger generated 728 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: normal usage data and rather generic pornographic terms late at night, 729 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: only occasionally referencing the same jail bait site Old Guys 730 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,320 Speaker 1: Image Hosting, and then followed by what at the time 731 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 1: I felt was gibberish. I felt it was gibberish until 732 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 1: I heard you three read the same sort of code 733 00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: out in the air on this podcast, and I immediately 734 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: broke out into a cold sweat. There is additional information 735 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 1: that ran home that my father was involved in this, 736 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: though some of it is two on the nose and 737 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,520 Speaker 1: its identification of those close to me to be been 738 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: able to verify that information. Suffice to say, he went 739 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,680 Speaker 1: on far too many business trips for one in his position. 740 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,720 Speaker 1: I suppose I should also mention that the retire prior 741 00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: to nine eleven, my father was a ranger, later a 742 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: member of Delta. He came in during the eighties and 743 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 1: spend extended time doing ground operations in the Middle East. 744 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: I can still remember getting letters from him with every 745 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,520 Speaker 1: word redacted. Aside from love Dad at the bottom, I 746 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: can also clearly remember Blackwater coming to recruit my father 747 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: post nine eleven, which was unnerving and unannounced. He refused 748 00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,399 Speaker 1: their offer. My father has also gone on at length 749 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,959 Speaker 1: and private regarding the important role extra judicial killing serve 750 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: and keeping the relative peace in the world. He's very 751 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: much in needs of the many outweighs the needs of 752 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,879 Speaker 1: the few. I will not be able to receive any 753 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 1: replies to this mailbox. I also apologize for not providing 754 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,319 Speaker 1: any proof to you, but it's an unnecessary risk for me. 755 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,640 Speaker 1: Thank you. It is strangely comforting to find out so 756 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: many years later that my father is a murderer and 757 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: not a pedophile. Sometimes bad people need a quiet pill 758 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:49,759 Speaker 1: so good people can sleep peacefully. Unsigned wow wow, Okay, 759 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: are our second one, our second piece of correspondence. Thank 760 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,399 Speaker 1: you to whoever that was um second piece. I think 761 00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: one reason no need to comment on that, because if 762 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: you're of the episode, you understand what an amazing artifact 763 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: that is. And we really do appreciate you sharing and 764 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: shedding some light on this system that we talked about 765 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,719 Speaker 1: that we we honestly uh yeah, that there's a lot 766 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: to unpack there. Yeah, if it is, you know true, 767 00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,719 Speaker 1: because we can't confirm or deny any of it. Um, 768 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: But let's move on. Our second piece of correspondence comes 769 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,600 Speaker 1: from someone who signs their letter T and it says 770 00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: to conspiracy. Hey guys Dutch. Milo was not part of 771 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: a hit squad. He was associated with a military contracting service. 772 00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,280 Speaker 1: He would get people in touch with a gentleman named 773 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,240 Speaker 1: Thomas Leahy, who, after being removed from dp D, began 774 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: recruiting for a company called Alpha Omega Security Solutions. Milo 775 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,360 Speaker 1: was friends with Alpha Omega because their operations in Central 776 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: America lead to a large amount of association in things 777 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 1: that Milo had an interest i e. Child porn. Milo 778 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: helped recruit and some people returned the favor. He did 779 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,040 Speaker 1: not die piece fully in his philosophy of some people 780 00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,600 Speaker 1: being evil so they just needed to go was what 781 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,320 Speaker 1: ended up leading to his demise. Wow, and our final 782 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,279 Speaker 1: shout out today is for ron b Um. He says, 783 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,440 Speaker 1: I've been a fan of the podcast since the videos 784 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: first started coming out, and I was zapped temporarily off 785 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 1: to a reality where it disappeared. When I finally made 786 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: it back to this reality, I discovered that there was 787 00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,359 Speaker 1: now an audio version, which I'm thoroughly enjoying. That's good 788 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: to hear. Thank you. Um. I just got done listening 789 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,719 Speaker 1: to your crime Kidnapping and Organs the Red Market episode, 790 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: and I couldn't help but write about it. During the 791 00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,320 Speaker 1: parts of the episode where the Oregon Trail was being discussed, 792 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,359 Speaker 1: I could not help but think of the game the 793 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:43,359 Speaker 1: Organ Trail. The game has done faithfully to the old 794 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: school Oregan Trail graphics and play style, but with zombies 795 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: and a wood paneled station wagon in lieu of the 796 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: covered wagons. It even has the first person you meet 797 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:58,319 Speaker 1: die of dysentery. Anything less would be a travesty. That's 798 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: my line, not ron B. Keep up the good work. 799 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: I look forward to the notifications that pop up in 800 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,319 Speaker 1: the app with each new episode. Oh man, he even 801 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: gets the notifications app ron by thanks and speaking of 802 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: that reality with video, with lack of videos, what's what? 803 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,919 Speaker 1: What's it? What it do? Guys, We're back in the game. 804 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,279 Speaker 1: We're back in the game. I'm gonna expect more from 805 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 1: as soon. You can also find our first long form 806 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: documentary on the Georgia Guidestones that all three of us 807 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 1: put a lot of effort in uh for free on Amazon. Yeah, 808 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: if you go to Amazon, search guidestones or etched in secret. 809 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: You can even search for Ben Bowling if you want to, 810 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 1: or Noel Brown and you'll find it. And this concludes, 811 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: but not our show. We are going and that's the 812 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: end of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts 813 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: or questions about this episode, you can get into contact 814 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: with us in a number of different ways. One of 815 00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,080 Speaker 1: the best is to give us a call. Our number 816 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: is one eight three three st d w y t K. 817 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,080 Speaker 1: If you don't want to do that, you can send 818 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,399 Speaker 1: us a good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at 819 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: i heart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you 820 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,759 Speaker 1: to know is a production of I heart Radio. For 821 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart 822 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 823 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:20,720 Speaker 1: favorite shows.