1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuf mom never told you. From House to 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: works dot Com, Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I was traveling not 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: too long ago, and I was sitting in the airport 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: reading a book called Breasts, A Natural and Unnatural History, 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna lie to you. I got a 7 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: couple of sort of awkward looks from guys who were 8 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: sitting next to me, and it made me more aware of, Oh, 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: I'm reading this book that says breast in large font 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: on the cover, Okay, And I didn't care. I was like, 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: if anyone wants to ask me about this boom book, 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: no problem. And I got on the plane and started 13 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: reading Breasts and obviously very close quarters, and there's a 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: woman sitting next to me, also reading, and I've noticed 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: she had kind of looked over at my book a 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: little bit, and I was like, oh, she's probably thinking 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: about how I'm reading Breasts. And then I looked over 18 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: at her book. She was reading Fifty Shades of Gray Ah. 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,199 Speaker 1: And from that moment on, once we kind of exchanged glances, 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: were like, cool, We're totally fine. Neither of us is 21 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: on an e reader. We're owning it. Although I will 22 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: say that my book Breast and a Natural and Unnatural 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: History by Florence Williams far more educational than Fifty Shades 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 1: of Gray. I'm sure some people would disagree this is true, 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: but yeah, I have read Breast and it was such 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: a great read that I reached out to the author, 27 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: Florence Williams, to see if she could chat about it, 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: because is there a better topic for stuff Mom never 29 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: told you then breasts? I I think it's it's Taylor made. 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: It is Taylor made. We've talked about bras before and 31 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: cleavage before, but Florence really dug into the science and 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: evolution of breasts and also the intersection of breasts and 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: the environment. Yeah. The New York Times actually likened her 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: book to Rachel Carson's nineteen sixty two Silent Spring, which 35 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: really detailed the impact of industrial chemicals on animals and 36 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 1: the environment. She takes that kind of scientific viewpoint and 37 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: applies it to our breasts and talking about how the 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: fatty tissue that sits atop our chests is like a 39 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: magnet for chemicals and pollutants. Yeah, and while a lot 40 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 1: of the environmental interactions that she talks about in the 41 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: book and that we also talked about in the interview 42 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: are pretty unsettling because it's all the stuff happening, and 43 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: it's affecting our breasts and getting passed out via breast milk, 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: two babies, and then all of those generational effects that 45 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: take place. Um. But she also touches on the evolution 46 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: of breast, the scientific study of breast, which is often 47 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: kind of brushed aside just because of how sexualized they are, 48 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: and almost sexualized in kind of a comical way. Um. 49 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: And she also touches on the horrifying history of implants 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: as well, because not only are all of these environmental 51 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: threats going on, but we're also paying money to have 52 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: people tinker with our breasts and the size of them. 53 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: So I was really happy to get Florence on the phone. Breast, 54 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: A Natural and Unnatural History one the two thousand thirteen 55 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: l A Times Book Prize for Science and Technology, and 56 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: it was named the two thousand twelve New York Times 57 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: Notable Book. So you should definitely check it out, and 58 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: huge thanks to Florence for talking with us. Yes, so 59 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: let's hear what she had to say. What got you 60 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: interested in writing breasts. It all started when I was 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: nursing my daughter, uh, and I found out that there 62 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: were some toxic chemicals showing up in breath milk. So 63 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: I thought it would be interesting to have my own 64 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: best milk tested, UM to find out what was in 65 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: there and then you know, write an article about that 66 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: and kind of what it meant for my health and 67 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: for my daughter's self. So so we shifted off a 68 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: file of breath milk to a lab in Germany and 69 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: it came back positive for flame retardants UM and also 70 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: trace amounts of pesticides UM. So so that reason launched 71 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: me into this good, bigger question of how else modern 72 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: life is changing breaths and what it means UM. Well, 73 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: what was what was one of the most surprising things 74 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: that you learned with all of the research that you 75 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: did for the book. Well, it was just fun to 76 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: learn about how it's amazingly complex breasts are. You know, 77 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: we tend to in our society, of course, think of 78 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: them in one way, and that's um, you know, a 79 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: sexualized way, and so I wanted these amazing things about 80 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: how they worked. UM. I learned that, for example, when 81 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,799 Speaker 1: you're nursing, your breaths are incredibly smart and they actually 82 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: know when your baby is, for example, ill or suffering 83 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: from an infection. UM and then your breath milk kind 84 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: of adjust it's ingredients accordingly. For example, it will put 85 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: more antibodies in the best milk. And it looks like 86 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: from primate studies that your your breath even somehow no 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: if you're nursing a male or female infant, uh, and 88 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: it it changes um also the competition of the fats 89 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,559 Speaker 1: and the proteins based on that. And then I also 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: learned that actually breaths are very unique in the animal kingdom. 91 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Not kind of assumed that we're all mammals have memory glands, 92 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: so there must be some other mammals out there, you know, 93 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: that have mammory glands to sort of look like ours. 94 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: But it turns up that the human breast is actually 95 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: incredibly unique in the animal kingdom, and that no other 96 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: primates actually has these sort of permanently enlarged nouns, you know, 97 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: on their chest like we do. We have them starting 98 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: in puberty and then we essentially have breasts our entire lives, 99 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: and with other primates they really only have, you know, 100 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: sort of what we would call breasts while they're lactating, 101 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: and then they received again. So I thought that I'd 102 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: be kind of interesting to know in fact how unusual 103 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: breasts are. For example, our breasts are getting bigger in 104 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: modern life, which was interesting to me and something unexpected. 105 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: And also of course that they're showing up earlier now 106 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: in younger and younger girls. So the big question then, 107 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, why were you talking about how unique they 108 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: are too humans? Why do we have them? Can you 109 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that? Well, yes I can, 110 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: And in fact it's one of those kind of perennial 111 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: biology questions because a lot of people are interested in 112 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: breast and a lot of evolutionary biologists have been asking 113 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: this question for a while, you know, how did we 114 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: get so lucky? Why why do we have breast and 115 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: sort of no one else um, And so there's there's 116 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: actually a big debate about it, and for a long 117 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: time a lot of the sort of dominant theory in 118 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: evolutionary biology has been that breath must have evolved as 119 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: a sexual signal for men, and that they must be 120 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: a sexually selected trait, so that you know, we have 121 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: them because men are interested in them. Essentially, and they 122 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: must be conveying some kind of you know, important information 123 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: to men. But then in the eighties and nineties, you know, 124 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: there are more kind of feminists in the field of anthropology, 125 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: and some of them started questioning these theories and saying, well, 126 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, why why should we su that these breasts 127 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: exausts for men? You know, because couldn't there be some 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: other reasons that breasts exist, for example, to help the 129 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: woman survived or to help her infants survive. You know, 130 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: if there's something about about breath that um, you know, 131 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: enabled their fitness, then it would be a more naturally 132 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: selected treat and not a sexually selected treat UM. And 133 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: so they have some alternative theories. Most we have having 134 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that humans, human females and 135 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: human infants need a greater percentage of body fat in 136 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: order to survive UM, and in fact, breath are a 137 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: pretty good place to store body fat. And so because 138 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: our breaths also have estrogen receptors, estrogen tells fat to 139 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: be deposited in our breasts as well, and it couldn't 140 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: be that because a sort of combination of estrogen being 141 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: in our breast and and the fat showing up there, 142 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: that that breaths are in the way kind of accidents 143 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: of of just being human. Now, it's interesting you talk 144 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: about ebo bio and obviously evolutionary biologists have spent a 145 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: lot of time researching breast, but it seems like outside 146 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: of that area, and we also hear a lot about 147 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: breast cancer research of course, but why and saying that 148 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: you touched on a little bit on the book. In 149 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: the book is how research on the function of breast 150 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: almost is not doesn't seem to be taken as seriously 151 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: in the scientific realm Or was I just reading into 152 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: that a little bit? No, I think you're right. I 153 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: think in many ways breaths are kind of orthan of science, 154 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: um because I think because we sexualize them so much, 155 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: it's harder to take them seriously as an organ And 156 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: in fact, a lot of scientists told me that they 157 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: have trouble getting funding for research breast anatomy, or they 158 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: have trouble all um, you know, just being taken seriously 159 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: studying things like breast milk um, because there's just a 160 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: lot of funding in it. And and it's also um, 161 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: they feel that that breaths are just not taken seriously, 162 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: and in fact, it's true that breath are the only 163 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: organ in our body that don't have a medical specialty. 164 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: So if you think about it, you know, our other organs, 165 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: our kidneys, aswevers, you know, they they have the you know, 166 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: a whole sort of specialty of medicine revolving around them, 167 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: and we don't. In fact, when a woman gets breast cancer, 168 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: because she goes to see a surgeon, or she might 169 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: see her gynecologists UM, or she might schang endochronologists, um. 170 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: But these aren't specialties that are necessarily dedicated to the breast. 171 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: And so because of that, we actually have a really 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: limited understanding of how breast work. We don't know, for example, 173 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: why we get breast cancer. And breast cancer is such 174 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: a complicated disease. It's actually the number one cancer killer 175 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: of women globally, and in our country, in the United States, 176 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: it's the number one killer of women in middle age, 177 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: and so it's sort of amazing that we haven't spent 178 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: more time trying to figure out how breast cancers start. UM. 179 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: And then of course breast milk, and I learned that 180 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: we actually know very little about breast milk, even though 181 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 1: it's this perfect food for humans. Either we spend more 182 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: money and more resources, more scientific energy studying lead wine 183 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: than we do studying breast books. So I think that's 184 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: that's kind of telling and interesting and it's so sad really, 185 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of women's health, well, and it 186 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: seems like when you're talking about all of the different 187 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: medical specialties and how there isn't one for breast, the 188 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: first thing that popped into my mind was, well, we 189 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 1: do have plastic surgeons. Is that the closest that we 190 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: have to breast experts of sorts? Um? And in the 191 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: book you talk about the history of implants um and 192 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: really all of the horrific things that we have put 193 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: into women's breast over the years UM because you talk 194 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: a little bit about why or how implants were invented 195 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: and especially this uh, this medical invention of micromastia or 196 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: having small breasts. Yeah. Sure, you know, for a long time, 197 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: women were more concerned with having breast were too large, 198 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: and so the earliest bress surgeries were surgeries that tried 199 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: to reduce the size of breath because large breasths really 200 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: gotten the way you know of for example, you know, 201 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: farm work or field work for for a lot of women, 202 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: and so so those are the first surgeries. And then um, 203 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: it was actually the women on the stage who who 204 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: sang or were actresses who felt that it might be 205 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: um sure beneficial to them to have larger breath. And 206 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: so the first breast augmentation was performed on an actress 207 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: in Germany. UM, and I think you had the date. 208 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: I think it was about eighteen in eighteen eighties or 209 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: eighteen nineties, was the date that you sided. There you go, thanks, 210 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: you had the goodness was the first surgery to try 211 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: to enlarge a woman's breath. And in that case, a 212 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: surgeon took some fat from her backside and put it 213 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: in her breasts, and it actually didn't work very well 214 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: because the fat sort of dissipated and migrated around and 215 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: basically dissolved. And so this is that failure. There has 216 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: been a hundred years of failures of trying to make 217 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: women's breasts larger, and the history it's just sort of 218 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:22,719 Speaker 1: this sorry history of um of environmental and health catastrophe 219 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: sort visited upon women in the name of medical experimentation. 220 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: Doctors tried to augment women's breast with ox cartilage, with 221 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: wood ships with the glass balls. In the nineteen nineteen 222 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: fifties and early ninettes, they tried to use these new 223 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: plastics like even plastic sponges UM, very much like a 224 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: kitchen sponge, and in many cases these resulted in horrible infections, 225 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: UM in hardening of of the tissue and uh, it 226 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: never can work very well. And then uh, in nineteen 227 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 1: sixty two, a surgeon in Houston, Texas had the idea 228 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: of using silicone, which had been a material UM invented 229 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: for use in World War Two. And the silicone was soft, 230 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: and it was cleaner and UM, so it was possible 231 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: to use this as an augmentation material that that wouldn't 232 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: necessarily cause an instant infection, and it also tended to 233 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: stay in place. So the first surgery was actually performed 234 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: on a dog named as Morelda, and she did not 235 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: like her importance. I can imagine she ended up she 236 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: ended up chewing them out. She did not understand the 237 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: need for this new endowment. UM. And then of course 238 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: it was it was performed on a woman, and the 239 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: first woman UH this operation was the n two and 240 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: she's actually still alive. So I interviewed her from my 241 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: book which was really a lot of fun. She's in 242 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: her eaties and she's she's kind of proud, you know, 243 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: of dis place in history, and she jokes that when 244 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: she dies, she's going to dedicate her breast to science. UM. 245 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: I mean that's so fascinating though, that we've been so persistent, 246 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: you know, for almost a century of trying to artificially 247 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: augment women's breast. UM. But it seems like one of 248 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, while while we've been busily trying to put 249 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: implants into breast, there have also been environmental contaminants making 250 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: their way into breast tissue. UM. And you talk a 251 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: lot about that in the book, and um about that 252 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: in Endocrine Disruptors. UM. So, could you talk about some 253 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: of the most directly uh, some of the chemicals that 254 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: are most directly threatening to long term breast health. Yes, 255 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: Unfush breasts do seem to attract a lot of environmental 256 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: contaminants and industrial pollutants. And a couple of reasons for this. 257 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: One is that breast tissue it's so fatty. It's um, 258 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, one of the fattiest parts of our bodies. 259 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: And many industrial chemicals, such as pesticides, are fat loving chemicals. 260 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: Are sort of attracted to fat, and once they get 261 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: in fatty tissue, these industrial molecules, they tend to stay 262 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: there for a very long time. In the case of 263 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: d DP for example, and flame retardants, which I also 264 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: tested for in my breast milk. UM. These are substances 265 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: that that last in mammalian fatty tissue for UM years 266 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: and years and years. UM and PCBs, which are now banned. UM. 267 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: But we're an industrial UM chemical used to sort of 268 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: insulate electronics. They can last for decades. And so sadly, 269 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: some of the chemicals that we've been sort of accumulating 270 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: in our breast tissue for you know, since we were 271 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: children we end up passing along to our children, some 272 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: of the same ones end up staying there for for 273 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: the decades of our reproductive lives. So UM. Even the 274 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: chemicals that our daughters are exposed to now when their 275 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: infants may still be in their blood and in their 276 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: fat when they're having babies. UM. So these are things 277 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: that can last even for more than one generation in 278 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: our bodies. And of course, but the question is really, 279 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: well what are they doing there? And unfortunately the science 280 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: is very young. UM, it's only been in really the 281 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: last ten years or so that we've been able to 282 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: sort of easily and affordably detect the presence of these 283 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: chemicals UM and and scientists have been looking hard at 284 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: animals and seeing what these substances do, uh, you know, 285 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: to lab animals, and looks like some of them have 286 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: the ability to affect our hormone systems. So they're what 287 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: they call endocrine disruptors. And they can either mimic hormones 288 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: or they can otherwise interfere with the hormonal signaling in 289 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: our body. And and these hormones are really important for 290 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: regulating all kinds of biological processes you from metabolism UM 291 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: to UM you know, sex drive and preparenting behavior to 292 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: neurodevelopment behavior UM and you know your power brains work. 293 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: For example, the flame retardants have been shown to UM 294 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: particularly affect the thyroid system and the thyroid hormones UM. 295 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 1: So what they're seeing in animals and now in some 296 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: human studies is that animals with the highest number the 297 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: through the largest number of these molecules in their bloodstreams 298 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: and to have UM sort of lacked out thyroid systems 299 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: either low thyroid or high thyroid, and the thyroids a 300 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: very important especially for infant brain development. So it also 301 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: looks like, um that there are some human studies that 302 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: are that are sort of confirming some of this too, 303 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: um that that women who have the highest levels of 304 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: these chemicals in their breast milk have UM infants and 305 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: children with some some potentially i Q and bring behavior differences. 306 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: So it's something that you know, I think a lot 307 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: of people are very concerned about. Well, I know, you 308 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: do some experimentation in the book to try to limit 309 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 1: your exposure two chemicals, and you have to go to 310 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: really extreme steps to do that. In the book, you 311 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: do that for you and also um for your daughter, 312 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: including things of having to ride your bike around so 313 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: that you're not coming into contact with these chemicals that 314 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: are in the materials in our cars for instance. So 315 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: I mean, knowing all that, you know, now, how can 316 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: women protect their breast because it seems like these environmental 317 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: threats are unavoidable. Yeah know, I think these mothers were all, 318 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, want to be cautious. I mean, we make 319 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: our kids wear bicycle helmets, you know, we make them 320 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: wear seatbelts, and we all kind of operate on the 321 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: today level using the precautionary principle. And yet then we 322 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: find out that there are all these industrial toxicans in 323 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: use that have the potential to affect you know, our 324 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: children's brains and the timing of puberty for our children, 325 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: which is something you know, many of us are concerned 326 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: about UM, and yet there's so little we can do 327 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: to actually control their exposures and our exposures to these substances. 328 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: So I wanted to find out, you know, if I 329 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: really if I really tried, could I affect you know, 330 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: for example, UM, how many parabins or how many how 331 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: much b p A I had in my bloodstream? And 332 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: neither really common chemicals used in UM household personal care 333 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: products for example of shampoos UM or you know, in 334 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: our water bottles UM. And so, so I've tried, tried 335 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: not to eat any food that had touched plastic. I 336 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: didn't ride in my car for a few days because 337 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be exposed to the ballates, which 338 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: are another in the condestructor found in the interiors of 339 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: our cars at off gas UM and I so I 340 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: became a vegan, and I didn't use UM any smelly 341 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: shampoos or moisturizers or dealers for a few days, and 342 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: I tested my blood and my daughter's blood both before 343 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: and after um, you know, doing these experiments. So I 344 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: tested my my my urine and my daughter's urine because 345 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: that's where these chemicals sort of end up. And I 346 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: was able to offer the levels in my body about 347 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: eighty or nine for some of these substances. We catted 348 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: for five or six of them. UM. But so either 349 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: substances I could hardly budget even by living in this 350 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: sort of extreme, you know, no smelly substances life. And 351 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: that was it was really disconcerting feeling that I actually 352 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: could not control those exposures. And what it tells me 353 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: is that we really don't know where these exposures are 354 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: coming from. Part of that is because you know, when 355 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: we go to the grocery store and we buy food product, 356 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: or we buy a shampoo or a soap, um, the 357 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: manufacturers are not required to label those ingredients. So we 358 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: don't know if our soap has a salts in it 359 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: or if it has triclothes and which is an endercrine 360 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: destructing um antibacterial substance. But if you go to Europe, 361 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: for example, the manufacturers are required to label, so you 362 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: can avoid substances more easily than you can in the 363 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: United States. UM. Moreover, the substences are everywhere. They're sort 364 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: of in you know, in our homes. They might be 365 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 1: in our roofing tiles, UM, they might be in our 366 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: home electronics. UM. We just don't know. There are so 367 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: many saltes and uh, there's so many products. It was 368 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: overwhelming to me, and it made me feel sort of helpless, 369 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: and it also made me feel so angry that you know, 370 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: our government has not UM worked harder to study these 371 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: substances for half effects, and UM has not really worked 372 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: to regulate them when they do of the peer to 373 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: have some questionable health properties. So it seems like almost 374 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: the best that we can do is remain vigilant about, 375 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, maintaining awareness of the ingredients of food and 376 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: whatever products when that information is made available to us. 377 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: And beyond that, it seems like that's sort of all 378 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: you can do. Maybe too, uh to protect yourself against 379 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: environmental containments is obviously we can't you know, live in 380 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: you know, vacuums away from all of these day lights 381 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 1: and paarabins, etcetera. Well, the problem with that strategy of 382 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: trying to be vigilant is that it puts this tremendous burden, 383 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 1: you know, on the individual and on the consumer to 384 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 1: sort of figure this out. And it's just beyond us, frankly, 385 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we're not most of us are 386 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: not chemists. We're not endocnowledgists. Um. And and frankly, we 387 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: know we have enough going on, right, I mean, we're busy, 388 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: and we have other things to worry about, especially you know, 389 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: if you're a mother, there are a lots of other 390 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: things you're worrying about too, and so to add this 391 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: to the plate um, it just seems um, you know, 392 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: kind of impractical and you know, frankly, just annoying. Um. 393 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: And so, so I was left with feeling like this 394 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: shouldn't be my problem, this should be my government's problem, 395 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: and it should be the manufacturer's problem. Um. You know, really, 396 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: let's not put you know, if there's a questionable is 397 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: there a questionable substances, please let's not use them. You know, 398 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: Let's find safer alternatives. And there are safer alternatives for 399 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: many of these ingredients. Um. And so you know, I 400 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: feel like if we want to do anything useful. It 401 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: would be sort of put more pressure on both state 402 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: and federal governments to spend more resources testing these substances. 403 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: I would like to see them tested for health effects, 404 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: specifically in the memory land, which is not done right now. 405 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,679 Speaker 1: Sometimes when chemicals are tested UM in a lad animal, 406 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: for example, the memory land is just starts thrown out, 407 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: like no one's actually looking at effects on the memory land. 408 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: And there were some activists who told me about this, 409 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: and and it just seems kind of crazy that, you know, 410 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: we're living in that in an age of increasing West 411 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: cancer UM such a strong concern amongst so many of 412 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: us UM that that it really would be helpful to 413 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: look at sort of this target tissue rather than completely 414 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 1: ignoring it. But I feel like that, you know, there's 415 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: a lot we can do as sort of activists or 416 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: as just citizens to kind of you know, ask for testing, 417 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: you know, like they do in Europe. Why can't we 418 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: do that here? And of course there are a lot 419 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: of complicated reasons for that, but with more consumer pressure 420 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: and more citizen pressure, I think, you know, it's more 421 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: effective than having us try to figure this all out 422 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: on a case by case basis. As we walked through 423 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: the grocery store. Well, um, you talk a lot in 424 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: the book about being a mother. You you know, you 425 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: mentioned your children a number of times and talk about 426 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: breast milk and uh. And this relates to the issue 427 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: with the environmental contaminants because like you said, you know, 428 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: those kind of containments can get into breast milk, et cetera. Um, 429 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: but in general, you know, there's all this information basically 430 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: on how breast milk is kind of perfect in a way. 431 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: So knowing though that scientifically like just how good breast 432 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: milk is for babies, how do you think though that 433 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: we as women kind of can balance that sort of 434 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: scientific reality of knowing that but also the realities of 435 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 1: being working moms perhaps or maybe even women who just 436 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: have a difficult time breastfeeding. Can you make some sense 437 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: I guess of how to balance I don't know, working 438 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: mom's life and then also knowing that that perhaps probably 439 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: breast is best. Yeah, sure, you know, I as your 440 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: breastfeeding is, um, it's it's complicated and demanding and for 441 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: for working mothers especially, UM, you know, sometimes it's it's 442 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: hard to figure out the balance of you know, how 443 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: to how to be home enough, how to pump, how 444 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: to get enough support to do it. Um And and 445 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: certainly for a lot of women, you know, it's it's 446 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: it's just too it's too much, it's too difficult, and 447 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: if they have to work, you know, right after their 448 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: baby is born. Um. Um, you know, it's it's it's 449 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: it has to be sort of up to them to 450 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: figure out what's going to work best for them. And 451 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: I think I think as a women, we need to 452 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: kind of support each other as we make these choices. Um. 453 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: But I do think that if you want to make 454 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 1: an argument for which is better for your baby, um, 455 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: formula or breast milk. You know, the science is really 456 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: emerging more strongly that breast milk is a little bit better, 457 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: especially for babies who are born early, for premature babies, 458 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: and um, for babies who are born outside of Western 459 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: industrial societies, you know, who are growing up in a 460 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: pathogen rich environment where they're exposed to dirty water for example. 461 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: You know, used to make formula for those babies, breast 462 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: milk is actually incredibly important for survival. It's a little 463 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: bit harder to make the survival argument in the United States, 464 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: where babies actually grow up just fine on formula. But 465 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: what we're learning more and more is that nursing is 466 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: also good for the mom and I think that's really 467 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: interesting too. We know that that by her, but when 468 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: she nurses, she's mobilizing the fats that she's accumulated during 469 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: pregnancy UM and giving them to her baby, and it 470 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: actually helps her recover and sort of regain a healthy 471 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: ratio of fats within her own body. So women who 472 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: rest feed are at lower risk later on, even you know, 473 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: decades later on, for things like heart disease or hypertension. UM, 474 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: and we also know that for the baby. You know 475 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,479 Speaker 1: that there does seem to be an IQ benefit although 476 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 1: it's small, and UM also a fewer respiratory infections in 477 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: the ear infections. UM. We also know, and we're learning 478 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: this more and more, that breath milk can refers not 479 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: just nutrients to a baby, but it used system support. 480 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: So there are ingredients in breast milk that aren't actually 481 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: digested by the infant, but that are digested by bacteria 482 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: that is helpful to the infant. You know, we all 483 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: have these very complicated um communities of microflora in our bodies, 484 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: and it turns out that those colonies are started, you know, 485 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: the minute we're born and breath. Milk is actually you know, 486 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: has evolved over Um. There are millions of years and 487 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: mammals UM to sort of confer this colony. UM, that's 488 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: that's most optimal for health. And so it looks like 489 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: no baby to a breast that also have lower risks 490 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: of allergies for example UM and asthma UM. And it's 491 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: it's just kind of cool to think about, you know, 492 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: how that's all evolved to sort of optimize our health. 493 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: And it's something that formula companies, of course, have fallen 494 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: all over themselves to try to replicate you know, some 495 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: of these for example or logo saccharades um, that are 496 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: just unique to human breast milk and nowhere, nowhere else 497 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: found on the planet. And they just have not figured 498 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: out how to synthesize these products yet in formula. UM. Well, Florence, 499 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: I could ask you so many more questions all about breast. 500 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: It was a fascinating read, UM. But just to kind 501 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: of wrap everything up, UM, do you think that young 502 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: women and even older women for that matter, need to 503 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: learn more about their breasts or be taught more about 504 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: their breasts? Um? Do we do we need better breast education. Yeah, 505 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: that's a great question, and I really think we do. UM. 506 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: For one thing, young people learn about their bodies right 507 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: now from the internet and uh, you know, this is different, 508 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: of course from when I was growing up, UM and 509 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: I saw somewhere a statistic that something like the average 510 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: teenage boy will have seen something like twelve thousand images 511 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: of breath, you know, by the time you finished his 512 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: high school. And then this is stors happening about this 513 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: is that many of the breaths that that these both 514 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: boys and girls are seeing are not natural breaths, you know. 515 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: They they're either surgically authored breath uh. You know, there 516 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: are common in pornography, common in uh in Hollywood, or 517 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: their photoshops breaths. So this is also something that's really 518 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: pervasive in media. UM. And so so I think both 519 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: boys and girls are kind of growing up with his 520 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: expectation of what breasts are supposed to look like. And 521 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: I think, of course that there's a great disservice you 522 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: know to the sort of wonderful variety of natural breasts 523 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,040 Speaker 1: that you see at their um and you know, and 524 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: not to be so helpful for girls self esteem as 525 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: they're growing up and their bodies kind of look different 526 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: from an ideal. I also think that, um, just the 527 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: more we know about how breaths work and sort of 528 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: how amazingly for complicated and miraculous they are. Um, you know, 529 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: the more that that we will listen to them and 530 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: what do our breaths have to tell us, you know, 531 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: as they kind of get thicker and as breast cancer 532 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: becomes unfortunately more common throughout the world, really an important 533 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: um medical challenge to sort of figure out how to 534 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: try to prevent breast cancer. So that's something that I 535 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: think many of us can agree we're not spending enough 536 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: resources on currently. Well how can we How can we 537 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: support working moms who also want to breastfeed, but obviously 538 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: there's only so much time in the day. I think 539 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: there a couple of ways that we can encourage and 540 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: support breastfeeding. One is we can, um try to support 541 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: breastfeeding in public, because right now there's a great level 542 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: of discomfort in our society still with breastfeeding. And you 543 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: see this when women are asked to stop breastfeeding in public, 544 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: or when even they're arrested for breastfeeding in public. Um, 545 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: this is you know, every once in a while, you 546 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: hear news reports of this UM, which I think is 547 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: you know, tragic. I mean, we we are so comfortable 548 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: with sort of boobs hanging out all over the place 549 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: right in the media and then billboards and then posters, UM, 550 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: and then lingerie shops, and yet if a woman is 551 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: actually just bearing a little bit of breast at a 552 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: shop in wall because her babies is crime for food, um, 553 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, we asked her to leave. So I think, 554 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's important to kind of grow 555 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: more comfortable with the idea of breastfeeding and to support 556 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: it in public. I think one way to do that 557 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: also is to encourage famous people and celebrities to breastfeed. 558 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: And I loved it when bayon today, you know, breastfeed 559 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: in public. I think that sent a really powerful message 560 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: and I think that that can be helpful, um and supportive. 561 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: And then of course our social policies too that that 562 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: we don't have in this country that are common in many, many, 563 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: many other countries. UM longer maternality, longer maternal leaves policies, 564 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: for example, UM longer family leads policies, more support for 565 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: women who stay at home a little bit longer, UM 566 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: these have proven to be really effective for increasing breastfeeding rates. Great, well, 567 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,759 Speaker 1: if people want to learn more about you and learn 568 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: more about breasts and where to get a copy of Breasts? Um, 569 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: where can people go? I don't, thanks so much for asking. 570 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: I do have a website, It's Florence Williams dot com. 571 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: And um there are links to the book and a 572 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: video about the book and more descriptions there, and the 573 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: paperback is available now. UM just cave out last month. 574 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: Really book stories everywhere, and there's also an audio version 575 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 1: of the book and an electronic version of the book, 576 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: so the plays to read it. So thanks so much 577 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: again to Florence Williams for really enlightening us about so 578 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: many different aspects of our breasts that maybe people don't 579 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: really think about that often. Yeah, and I'll be curious 580 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: to hear from especially maybe mom's out there who have 581 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: considered what is in their breast milk, both on that 582 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: fascinating side of how nature seems to provide exactly the 583 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: right compounds for whether it is a male or female baby, 584 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: but then also the scarier side with those environmental contaminants 585 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: as well. UM, let us know your thoughts and don't 586 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: forget to check out Breasts, a Natural and Unnatural History, 587 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: published by W. W. Norton Company and written by Florence Williams. 588 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: You can email us at Mom's Stuff at Discovery dot com, 589 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,880 Speaker 1: or tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, or hit us 590 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: up on our Facebook and leave a note there. And 591 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: now back to our letters. Christ and I have one 592 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: here from Athena about our Pet Parents episode. She has 593 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 1: a slightly different experience from just the run of the 594 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: mill cats and dogs. She says, so, I'm one of 595 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: those who doesn't understand how crazy people get over their pets. 596 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: That is, until about a month ago, my long term 597 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: boyfriend and I were adopted by an adorable funny I 598 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: say adopted by because while at the shelters bun run 599 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: where they let all of their bunnies out into a 600 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: room where you can play with them, one bunny chinned us, 601 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: marking us, and then chased off all other bunnies they 602 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: wanted to come near us. That's the pretty territorial rabbits. 603 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: My boyfriend has been hesitant about getting a pet, afraid 604 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: of them dying, but her actions helped us decide then 605 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: and there, so we brought our little flopster home and 606 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: quickly turned into crazy parents. Rabbits need all organic vegetables, 607 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: and so we now only buy organic for us so 608 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: that she can have our vegetables too. We've built her 609 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 1: cardboard castles and tunnels to play in, and now my 610 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: boyfriend is talking about dressing her for Halloween. Can you 611 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 1: tell that I'm just like overcome by the adorable nous 612 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, I kind of want a bunny. Shoot. Okay, 613 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: me too, Um, she says, well we one day soon. 614 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: I hope want a child. Flopster is a great friend 615 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: to have, so I cannot imagine ever pushing a pet 616 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: into stroller. I will not say never, since those big 617 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: bunny eyes have already gotten me to do things I've 618 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: said never to before. On a personal note, I would 619 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: like to point out that bunnies are not great Easter 620 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 1: presents for kids. Most of the bunnies in the shelter 621 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,839 Speaker 1: were Easter bunnies rejected after the kids got tired of them. 622 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: Bunnies will bond with their human owners, so this is 623 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: heartbreaking for them to be rejected. Bunnies can die from heartbreak, 624 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: she says, So thank you for your incredibly adorable story. 625 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to be happy the rest of the afternoon 626 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: picturing Flopster playing in your cardboard castles. And you know 627 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: who else has pet Bunny? Some of them? Amy Sadaris. 628 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, just why I really want to buy out? Okay, Well, 629 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: this email that I have is from Jeff and he 630 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: is not down with pet parenting, so he just just 631 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: for background. He is married with a little girl, and 632 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: he writes pet parenting is something that has pissed me 633 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 1: off since my sister referred to me as the uncle 634 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: of her pet cats. I don't hate people loving their 635 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: pets or even spoiling their pets. I hate the humanizing 636 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: of animals. The fact that people would risk their lives or, 637 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: as you pointed out, put the life of a pet 638 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: over a human just sickens me. I should explain that 639 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: I don't look down on people who choose not to 640 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: have kids or can't have kids. Honestly, I think there 641 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: are too many people in the world to sustain it. 642 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,279 Speaker 1: I didn't realize how prevalent the pet parenting trend was, though, 643 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: until this past Mother's Day, when my Facebook wall was 644 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: flooded with Happy Mother's Day to all parents of pets. 645 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: So my response was a simple status update of pets 646 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: aren't children, and while did that blow up quickly, friends 647 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: were telling me about how they risk life and limb 648 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: to protect their pets, and some of these people had 649 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 1: actual children too. All I could think was imagine your 650 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: child losing their parents because Fluffy was going to be 651 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 1: hit by a car. It seemed preposterous to me, but again, 652 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't find fault within pet ownership until they start 653 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 1: to anthropomorphize their pets. We even own a cat who 654 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 1: snuggles on my chest every night. I like the cate 655 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: a great deal. We had two cats for one right away, 656 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: and while I didn't cry or get upset about it, 657 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 1: I was sad because it wasn't adjusted to be outside anyway. 658 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: Those are my thoughts as an anti pet parenting person, 659 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,919 Speaker 1: and there were a couple of other people who wrote 660 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: in similarly saying I don't get it. Pets are not people. 661 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: Take off that tiny, tiny shirt that is on that 662 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: dog a stuff. So thanks Jeff and everyone else who 663 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: has written in. Mom Stuff of Discovery dot com is 664 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: where you can send your letters and pictures of your pets, 665 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: especially if they were bunnies, and you can also tweet 666 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: us at mom stuff pot cast, find us on Facebook, 667 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: and follow us on Tumbler at stuff Mom Never Told 668 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: You dot tumbler dot com, and of course you can 669 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: also find us and watch us on the YouTube where 670 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You 671 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: already have like sixty or something videos up, so you 672 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: should go watch them and don't forget to subscribe for 673 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Doesn't how 674 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com