1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Reading comprehension among fourth and eighth graders are an all 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: time low. How can it be turned around? And is 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: reading aloud? The answer of Wall Street Journal's children's book 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: reviewer Megan Cox Gurdon is here with answers and a 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: wicked witch plays Jesus. I'll get into all of it 6 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: on this Arroyo Grande show. Come on, I'm Raymond Arroyo. 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to a Royal Grande. Go subscribe to the show 8 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: right now. Turn those notifications on. I want you to 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: know what's coming this good stuff. Let's start with a 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: culture counter. There was a rather obnoxious concert at the 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: Hollywood Bowl recently. They staged Jesus Christ Superstar starring Wicked 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: Cynthia Arrivo. Is Jesus, Why just why? I know the 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: shock values appealing to some, but imagine casting a guy 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: as Mama Rose and Gypsy or Manny your Gun. There 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: would be howls of protests, or you'd hope they would 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: be from actresses who've trained their whole lives for this 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: kind of opportunity. But this is different. Jesus Christ Superstar 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: always tilted to just this side of blasphemy, suggesting a 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: more intimate relationship between the Savior and Mary Magdalene than 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: the scriptures or tradition ever afforded. There's no disputing the 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: vocal powerhouse that arevo is. She's an incredible singer, But 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: why is she playing this role of Jesus. God could 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: have come as a woman or as a camel if 24 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: he wanted to, but he came as a man. And 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: when you start twisting that historic reality, you rub believer's 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: sensitivities the wrong way. And it's not people being prudes. 27 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: They actually believe that Jesus Christ, who was born two 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: thousand years ago, is the Messiah, and so you're treading 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: on sacred ground and they are justifiably offended when a 30 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: bald woman shows up as Jesus. Now, I know it's 31 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: just a summer musical, but if the creative team really 32 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: wanted to be edgy, why doesn't the Hollywood Bowl stage 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: a Mohammed musical? They could call it Man from La 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: Meca with Cynthia Arrivo in the lead role. Let me 35 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: know what the audience reaction is. I'll be hiding under 36 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: the seat. They wouldn't dare. But why is offending Christian's 37 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: fair game? When I first saw images of a Rivo 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 1: as Jesus. I have to say, the thought that came 39 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: to mind was, Oh, this must be that beloved musical, 40 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: my fair nos Ferantu. With those challenges, she's downright scary. 41 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: She does look like an angel, the fallen variety. The 42 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: amazing thing to me is that same weekend of the 43 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: Hollywood Bowl Jesus Musical, on the other side of the 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: world there was another Bowl showcasing Jesus. Pope Leo addressed 45 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: a million young people from all over the globe at 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: a huge outdoor event in Rome. It was a jubilee 47 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: for youth. There was beautiful muse no screaming or talons, 48 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: and a very powerful message. 49 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: If you truly want to encounter the risen Lord, then 50 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 2: listen to his word, which is the Gospel of salvation. 51 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: Reflect on your way of living, seek justice in order 52 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 2: to build a more humane world, serve the poor, and 53 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: so bear witness to the good that we would always 54 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: like to receive from our neighbors. At every step. As 55 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: we seek what is good, let us ask him Stay 56 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 2: with us. 57 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: Lord. As I watched this right after seeing clips of 58 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: Arivo wailing and arriving on the floor of the Hollywood Bowl. 59 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: I thought, isn't it curious that there are two Jesus 60 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: bulls if you will, but only one will have any 61 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: real impact or power in time? Oh, some were thrilled 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: at the vocals of the Andrew Lloyd Webbery stage. But 63 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: will it change any lives convict people to choose a 64 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: new path? Doubtful. But surely the massive papal event where 65 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: the focus was on the actual word and person of 66 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, not the superstar the Savior. I bet that 67 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: will have a much longer legacy. As for the Hollywood 68 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: Bowl Jesus Christ Superstar, it may not have been an 69 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: accurate depiction of the Son of God, but there's one 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: thing you have to say about it, and it would 71 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: have been a great tagline for them. Arevo and company 72 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: put the mess back in Messiah up next? Did you 73 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: see this news that a male artificial contraceptive is entering 74 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: human trials? God help us. This is just what we 75 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: need at a time when sperm counts have declined by 76 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: fifty percent in the last forty years. Researchers don't know 77 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: exactly why men are seeing a drop off, but sedentary 78 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: lifestyles and eating fast food of probably contributing factors. The 79 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: body needs to be well fed and moved to function. 80 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: Exercising your thumbs playing video games is not exactly robust 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: cardiac activity. With testosterone and sperm counts falling. Who thought 82 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: it would be a good idea to introduce men to 83 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: a pill that literally stops sperm production, and who knows 84 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: what side effects this thing will have. If it's anything 85 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: like the female contraceptives, they're likely to be very, very bad, 86 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: which can destroy fertility and cause bloating in other difficulties. 87 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: Look this summer, the US birth rate hit an all 88 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: time low, when men are already having an identity crisis 89 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: and reluctant to even approach women. Is this the time 90 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: to neuter guys altogether? The researchers would be better off 91 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: spending their time working to increase fertility in men and 92 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: the components necessary to facilitate it. We as a society 93 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: should be promoting committed love so we have more children. 94 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: We need more people guys. In terms you can understand, 95 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: it's like that age of Empire's game. Do you want 96 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: a bigger army or one guy in your campaign? You 97 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: want the sprawling legions, So don't let anyone take away 98 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: your army of swimmers, or distort the pool they're entering 99 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: with unnatural hormone regimes. Finally, a zoo in Denmark has 100 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: posted a message asking for the donation of smaller pets, 101 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: which sounds like a nice idea until you read the 102 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: fine print. Their Instagram post asks did you know that 103 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: you can donate smaller pets to Alborg Zoo? Chickens, rabbits, 104 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 1: guinea pigs make an important part of the diet of 105 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: our predators, especially in the European locust, which needs whole 106 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: prey which is reminiscent of what it would naturally hunt 107 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: in the wild. That's right. They aren't collecting animals to 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,799 Speaker 1: show them off. They're collecting dinner for the lions and cougars. 109 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: They even suggest donating your horse if you have a 110 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: spare one in the barn. This is crazy. Who's going 111 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: to willingly give their pets away knowing they'll be consumed 112 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: by a predator. Next, they'll be asking for any extra 113 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: grandparents or relatives you have lying around. They're already euthanizing 114 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: people in Asia. I guess the lions have to eat too. 115 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: Funny how the zoo is so concerned about protecting the 116 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: animal's natural eating habits. I wish they'd show the same 117 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: concern for the natural lifespans and reproductive habits of humans. 118 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: Now to our deep dive. My guest today has been 119 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: a foreign correspondent and since two thousand and five, the 120 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal's children's book reviewer. She wrote the most 121 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: incredible book called The Enchanted Hour, The Miraculous Power of 122 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: Reading Aloud in the Age of Distraction. Megan Cox Gurdon, 123 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: thank you for being here. Look, I was stunned by 124 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: your recent column where you wrote only five percent of 125 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: English majors at two Midwestern schools could make sense of 126 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: the paragraphs from Bleak House by Charles Dickens. How did 127 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: we get here? What happened in the culture and in 128 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: the schools that created this outcome where you have college 129 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: kids who simply can't comprehend what was once fought part 130 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: of the English canon. 131 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: It wasn't just part of the English canon. I mean, 132 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 3: Dickens was a popular writer. He was writing for everybody. 133 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 3: He wasn't writing for esoteric you know, seminars. Yeah, yeah, 134 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 3: I mean what has happened in the culture, My goodness, 135 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 3: that's a big question, Like what are the causes of 136 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: World War two. 137 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: Uh but you. 138 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 3: Know, I so so that little column that I wrote 139 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 3: was really about me grappling with the thought that something 140 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 3: that has been an axiomatic part of civilization for you know, 141 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: hundreds and hundreds of years, which is reading as a 142 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: practice and a discipline and a kind of aspirational thing, 143 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 3: reading is actually retreating from our culture. It's it's quite remarkable. 144 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: I mean, there we are, we are, we are almost 145 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: at a point now where reading is an uncommon activity. 146 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, people get a lot of information from 147 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: their phones and from technology and from other things. They 148 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: get short snippets. They don't read. I mean, obviously there 149 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: are outliers and everything. But you know, your standard issue 150 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: college student isn't reading for pleasure, Your standard issue high 151 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: school student isn't reading for pleasure, or isn't expected to 152 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: read even for comprehension for classrooms. You know, in that 153 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 3: same piece that you mentioned, we've seen this race recent 154 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 3: thing where the SAT now has cut the length of 155 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: the reading comprehension passages to one hundred and fifty words. 156 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 3: So it's getting it's like the tweetification of the whole culture. 157 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 3: Everything's getting shorter. Now, obviously society has you know, we've 158 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 3: things have come in and out of fashion, but to 159 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: leave behind reading seems like a very profound cutting us 160 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: off from the past. 161 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: Well look, I mean you're talking the piece about the 162 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: impact of smartphones. I mean this is now almost a 163 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: spiritual devotion to people. Okay, there for information, relationships, affirmation, 164 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: basic what was once basic lived experience they now do 165 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: entirely through the phone and through a virtual connection. The 166 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: impact of that, though, you don't have the deep reflection 167 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: that reading brings, and if that practice dies out, you 168 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: do lose a great deal as a culture, as a person, 169 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,239 Speaker 1: just as a human person and a soul. 170 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: Right right, I mean we have you know, the body 171 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: of literature is sometimes referred to as the great conversation. Right, 172 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 3: this is conversation between people long dead and people still 173 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: yet to be born. And we can, through reading literature 174 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: and kind of you know, intellectual works, essays and whatnot, 175 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: we can participate in the thinking processes of people who 176 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: lived two thousand years ago or a thousand years ago. 177 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: You know, it's quite extraordinary. There's this long golden thread 178 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: of conversation that comes to us, call it from Greeks 179 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 3: up till now, and if you lose the ability to read, 180 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 3: and literally reading is not a natural thing. And as 181 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: Marianne Wolf has described it so well, you know, reading 182 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: is not natural to our brains. We have to we 183 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 3: have to learn to read, and it's difficult. It's you know, 184 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: as a lot of us know from our school years 185 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 3: or when we had children going to learning to read. 186 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 3: It's an arduous process. So it takes it takes a 187 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 3: certain cultivation of the brain that allows us to participate 188 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: in this conversation with the past. 189 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: And I always say it's like a time machine, Megan. 190 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, every book is like a time machine, 191 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: and you can go places you will never go in life, 192 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: and experience and touch minds and historical figures that you'd 193 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: have no access to otherwise. That's a great gift. 194 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 3: It's a great gift. I mean, James Baldwin once said 195 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: something like I can't do the mangle the quotation if 196 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: I try it, but something like, you know, you can 197 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: feel alone in your life or in some predicament that 198 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 3: you're experiencing, and it actually turns out that other people 199 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 3: have felt it and they've been in it, and so 200 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: so Baldwin, as a black man in the modern era 201 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: could read Shakespeare and think I feel seen, I feel understood. 202 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 3: I am connected to this great human project. So yeah, 203 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: so having reading disappears, you know, it's it's more significant, 204 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 3: as you say, it's like a soul question as well, 205 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: you know, if you don't have if you you know 206 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 3: this this idea of college students not being able to 207 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 3: really understand metaphorical and figurative language, which was the real 208 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 3: problem for them with the seven paragraphs of Dickens. They 209 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: are simply at sea. They are cut off from the conversation. 210 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 3: And these are English majors, so we really are we 211 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 3: are at a kind of hinge point. And you know. 212 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: What does a book furnish individuals with that? The dopamine 213 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: rush of phone scrolling does not. 214 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: It's a slower burn, isn't it. What does a book? 215 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: I mean a book, any book? And the truth is right, 216 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 3: you have to from a book, you well, I mean, 217 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: as you know, I've done a lot of work with 218 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: books and children, and it is certainly the case with 219 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 3: young people that if they are read to, which is 220 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: one way, it's very easy. You don't have to you 221 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 3: don't have to train your brain to be read to. 222 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: You know, the person who's reading has to have the 223 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: trained brain, but the person who's listening merely has to 224 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: people to make sense of the words, which is very 225 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 3: easy to do with the ears. You get a kind 226 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 3: of a kind of depth, don't you. You You get 227 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: a depth of characterization and of scene making and connections 228 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: between the world that you are in and connections with 229 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 3: the thing on the page. And there's a lot of 230 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 3: work that goes on in the young brain, you know, 231 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 3: to process this information. That is that has seems to 232 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 3: have a kind of I want to say, what is 233 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: the thing that causes someone to flourish? It produces a 234 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: kind of flourishing of the intellect and also of language, 235 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 3: so that a person who who is reading the written 236 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: word is getting really a more sophisticated form of language 237 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 3: than the spoken word. You know, you and I in 238 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 3: this conversation may use one or two esoteric terms, but 239 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 3: we're not going to use any archaisms. Probably well, unless. 240 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: I just did, yeah, hold my beer, we'll see. Can 241 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: reading here's my question. Can reading counteract some of the 242 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: damage that phones inflict on the brain, And it does 243 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: take a toll on the human brain. We have all 244 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: the data. 245 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, yeah, I mean I think I think that 246 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 3: that's probably true. You know, I'm not a clinician, so 247 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: I can't speak directly to that, to the trade offs there, 248 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: but we do know that forgive me for banging on 249 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 3: my particular drum here, but that reading aloud is absolutely 250 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: absolutely supplies things that are being depleted by the phones. 251 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 3: And some of these, you know, to back to your 252 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 3: point about so some of these, these these these sort 253 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 3: of qualities of being are a little slippery, like feelings 254 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: of connectedness, feelings of presence. You know, we know that 255 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 3: children today and this has been a while now, I mean, 256 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 3: the phones have been with us for a long time now, Uh, 257 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 3: they're accustomed to the adults around them not really being there. 258 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 3: There's this concept of absent presence. So a person on 259 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: his or her phone, you know, is in the phone. 260 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 3: I mean, we've all done it. We can see everyone 261 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: around us doing it, and they're they're they're in the 262 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: room with you, but they're not really there, you know, 263 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: And the presence of the phone even it's you know, 264 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 3: we know, it's demonstrated that if a phone is on, 265 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: let's say at dinner table, everyone at the table is 266 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 3: slightly altered by the presence of the phone. Because the 267 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: phone is this portal to dopamine and alternate information and 268 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: entertainment and whatever they do. The phones do have these distorting, 269 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: uh you know, reshaping effects. 270 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: Huh Yeah. And I want to get into some of 271 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: what you've discovered and shared with us over the years 272 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: about reading aloud, because it is a powerful tool. I've 273 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: seen it in my own face. I know you relate 274 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: how it touched your five children and yourself in incredible ways. 275 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: Eighty five percent of kids Megan who got into trouble 276 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: with the law had poor literacy skills. Right. I read 277 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: a statistic today, twenty one percent of American adults are 278 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: functionally illiterate. That's forty five million people. Why has reading 279 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: for pleasure all but disappeared among young people? 280 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 3: Well, that is another one of these massive questions. Why 281 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 3: has it disappeared? I mean, obviously the phones have been 282 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: very important in displacing you know, you don't, you don't. 283 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: It doesn't require any there's there's no kind of preparation 284 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: required for receiving pleasure and dopamine from the phone. You 285 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: just open it and it goes. Whereas with reading, I 286 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: mean as those of us who grew up reading and 287 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: loving it. No, it's you know, you go through the 288 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 3: sort of the arduousness of learning to do it, and 289 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 3: then you get to just disappear into these worlds. I mean, 290 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 3: obviously not everybody always has read enthusiastically for pleasure. It's 291 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: been a real struggle for you know, a lot of people. 292 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: I know, my own husband didn't learn to read for pleasure. 293 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: I didn't really read for pleasure until he was in 294 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: his teens. By then, of course I had spent years, 295 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: you know, curled up reading. Yeah, so it just it is. 296 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 3: It is a very deep and profound pleasure that has 297 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 3: not been accessible to everybody. And the phones are accessible 298 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 3: to everybody. And I think that's one good answer for 299 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: you right there. 300 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, the minute and a half videos are a 301 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: lot less, there's less commitment there, and you just scroll 302 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: through to the next one if you don't like what 303 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: you see. I mean, the retention rates even of these 304 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: videos make it. And obviously, being a broadcaster, I spend 305 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: time watching this stuff. It's infantasimal. You're talking about eight 306 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: to ten seconds people thirty seconds they're watching these things 307 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: before they're off to the next so and that too, 308 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: I see as a function of the mind that is 309 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: just bouncing all over the place with ad D like 310 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, abandoned, other than focusing on a story, a character, 311 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:08,160 Speaker 1: a through line, holding these elements together. That reading trains 312 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: you to do right some more right. 313 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 3: That's training is a good word for it, because you 314 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: have to be trained in order to do it, and 315 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 3: you have to train yourself to do it and you 316 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 3: and it trains you and forms you as you do it. 317 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: I didn't know about you, but I know a lot 318 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 3: of people myself included, who Now, if I really want 319 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: to do deep reading, I have to put the phone away. 320 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: It has to be at a physical remove for me, 321 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 3: because if it's under my leg or just buy my 322 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: elbow or something, it prompted by Heaven knows what. I Well, 323 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 3: I find myself bick and I'll think the heck I 324 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: was reading? Like what am I doing now? 325 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a familiar you know, prowling around waiting 326 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: for you. I need to take the fall. Yeah, let's 327 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: talk not just about reading. And I want to get 328 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: to practical tips to help young people to read later 329 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: and parents certainly need this. But tell me about the 330 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: power of reading aloud. You had five children, have five children, 331 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: you read to all of them from really before they 332 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: were born. Yeah, tell me about that, and why? What 333 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: the power of reading aloud as opposed to just reading 334 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: the written word itself. 335 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So reading aloud. One of the things that's wonderful 336 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: about it, as I mentioned earlier, is that the person 337 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 3: who's doing the reading is essentially, you know, applying the training, 338 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 3: and you know, it's very easy for and the language 339 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 3: that we get through books is more sophisticated than the 340 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: regular language that we get. So when to use the 341 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: simplest example, a parent is reading aloud to a child, 342 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 3: the parent can read books that are more sophisticated or 343 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: pitched at a level above the child's age. Say not 344 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: not to you know, to make it demanding and difficult, 345 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 3: but it's simply it's a child can take in information 346 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 3: that's quite sophisticated. You and I may have talked about 347 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 3: this before, but you know, we all of us have 348 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 3: a receptive vocabulary. So when you read aloud, not only 349 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 3: are you giving a child in this case again parent 350 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 3: and chob a story, and you're giving them rich language. 351 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 3: You're creating worlds in their heads. What the old radio 352 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 3: people used to call theater of the mind. It's just 353 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 3: the sound and it allows a kind of deep, deep 354 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 3: brain engagement for children, especially if they're they're young children, 355 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: and they're looking at pictures that aren't moving, so still 356 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 3: pictures that allow their brains to make sense of the image. 357 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: They're hearing a story, they're perceiving the kind of physical 358 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 3: presence of the loving adult, and that's very significant. There's 359 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: a kind of hormonal shift that takes place when parents 360 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 3: and children sit down to read together. It isn't just 361 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 3: an intellectual exercise. It's an emotional exercise. I mean, the 362 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 3: dimensions of this are extraordinary. And as you know, as 363 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: I know, you know, when you sit with a child 364 00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: and read, something happens. Something more than regular life is happening. 365 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: There's a kind of knitting together that is, it's it's 366 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 3: in the imagination, it's in it's it's in a physical sense. 367 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: There's a kind of comfort that comes. You know, the 368 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: stress hormones go down, the bonding hormones go up, and 369 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 3: all of this is taking place over a piece of writing. 370 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 3: So you get grammar and syntax and story and you know, 371 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:28,359 Speaker 3: and good stories obviously too. You don't know what's going 372 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 3: to happen, so there's a sense of something is, something 373 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 3: is happening as you read. It isn't just that you 374 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: know that it's done when you sit down to read together, 375 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 3: but you're also in a process of sort of mutual 376 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 3: discovery and excitement when you read a story. 377 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: I mean, no, it's an imaginative journey. I mean you 378 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: said it it's an enchanted hour. 379 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. 380 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: And there's something incredible about I mean, there's a there's 381 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: the connection, empathy, I think focus, having everybody in the 382 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: room on an entire family focused on the same thing, 383 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: which is law. You know, TV used to do this 384 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: for us, Megan, and at one time. Now everybody's on 385 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: their own phone doing their watching and in their own world. 386 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: This is a moment where everybody comes together imaginatively in 387 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: a moment and rhythm is imparted and focus and empathy 388 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: for the characters that are going on. And as you 389 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: mentioned it, it reminded me of something, you know, my early life. 390 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: I was a classically trained actor. I did Shakespeare and 391 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: Racine and mol year. When you have that kind of 392 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 1: greatness in your mouth, that those ideas and words and shape, 393 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: it does transform you. It does leave a mark. 394 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: I like that greatness in your mouth. That's right, that's right. 395 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: So when you yeah, if you read. So, my husband 396 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 3: and I just did a little reading up here. We're 397 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 3: up in Main this summer, and we did a reading 398 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: of the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner and we had 399 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 3: a small audience and it was great because we were 400 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 3: embodying Coleridge, you know, it just it wasn't just us 401 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: standing there talking. It was using these beautiful phrases which 402 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 3: have been running through my head ever since. No, you're 403 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: exactly right. Yeah, you know something else about children's books. 404 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 3: You know, not every parent is really good at saying 405 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 3: using loving phrases, right, Not everybody is very sort of effusive, 406 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 3: And a lot of books for little children have built 407 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: into them loving language. So we talked about the greatness 408 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 3: in the mouth. But when a parent reads aloud a 409 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 3: book that is portraying a loving situation and that one 410 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 3: character is saying a loving thing to another, the child 411 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 3: hears those words in the parent's voice. So in a way, 412 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 3: books can also be a kind of primer to developing closer, 413 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: you know, just helping people express express themselves in ways 414 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 3: that they might not ordinarily be able to do. 415 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: No deeper emotional ties. It does certainly create that, and 416 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: we both had the experience. And I think anybody who's 417 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: read to a child where you pick up a book 418 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: you knew in your young life, yes, and you read 419 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: it as an adult to your and the entire emotional 420 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: landscape beneath it shifts on you, and you know, you 421 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: start crying at the oddest moments reading Treasure Island or 422 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: Peter Pan, and you know it's it's and that that 423 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: moment too, and explaining because the kid inevitably looks and goes, 424 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: why are you crying? Yeah, you keep reading, and you 425 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: have a moment to explain to them how the evolution 426 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: of that story changed you and what it really means. 427 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: You know. So it is it's an on ramp to 428 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: so much humanity. 429 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 3: I want to tell you one little story, if I may, 430 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: And this doesn't really have so much to do with 431 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: reading to children, though it's part of it. My mother 432 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 3: has died, but before she died, I read Kipling's Just 433 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: So Stories to her, and she had read them to 434 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: me when I was a girl, and I had read 435 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 3: them to my children. And the last time that my 436 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: mother had heard the Justice Stories when was when her 437 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 3: own mother was reading to her. So it was a 438 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 3: deep and enriching experience for both of us because here 439 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: I was reading words that my mother had read to me, 440 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: that I had read to my children, that she hadn't heard. 441 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: You know. 442 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: It was creating this like lovely braided feeling through time 443 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 3: from my long dead grandmother to my now dead mother 444 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 3: to you know, like it was really yeah, So there's 445 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 3: a kind of generational knitting together as well that you get. 446 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 3: And you mentioned Peter Panaman that's a speaking weird stories. 447 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: That is a really weird story, but it's. 448 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: It is a bizarre story. But reading that. 449 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: Weaves us together with the Victorians a little, you. 450 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: Know, that's right. It does and about and it's about 451 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: youth and the loss of youth and having to become 452 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: an adult and all of that. You know, there's such 453 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: richness in those in those works, a little bit bizarre 454 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: beneath the surface. Well, but there's a lot of richness here. 455 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: What would you recommend to people to families? How do 456 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: you begin this if you haven't done it yet? 457 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 3: So my recommendation is you just as with anything that 458 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 3: you want to do, you just start, You just do 459 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 3: a baby step. You just start today. You know today, 460 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 3: you just at some point when everyone's together. Let's say 461 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 3: it might be a dinner, you know, it might be 462 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 3: an early dinner, it might be bathtime, whenever it is 463 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 3: when you have people kind of corralled and everyone's together, 464 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 3: pick something up and start to read, and then do 465 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: the same thing again tomorrow at the same time. And 466 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't have to be an enchanted hour. 467 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: It can be enchanted five minutes. One of the things 468 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: that certainly, I mean, I've seen this happen, that people 469 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 3: get a taste of this, you know, as we were 470 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 3: talking about how it's this rare and wonderful experience, it's 471 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 3: not like the rest of life, and then they they 472 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: it can be almost a little embarrassing for some kids. 473 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 3: They're kind, they're you know, they're jaded, and they're used 474 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: to their phones and whatever, like, mom, what are you 475 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 3: doing reading? But actually they're not immune to the charms 476 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 3: of this process. And you give it to them for 477 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 3: five minutes today, five minutes tomorrow, and then pretty soon 478 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: you may find as there's a test case in my 479 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 3: book actually of a family that did this and they 480 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 3: they were a big TV family. They didn't think it 481 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 3: was going to work, and it turned out to be 482 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 3: in sourcel the whole lot of them. Everyone loved it. It 483 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: was everyone's favorite part of every day, wasted hour in 484 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 3: the evening. So I believe it can happen. You know, 485 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 3: even bach families, that can happen well. 486 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: And you're also creating family rituals and deep, deep emotional, 487 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: artistic and imaginative memories that I think carry through the 488 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: rest of your life. I mean, they just do they 489 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: mark you. 490 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I I one hundred percent endorse that. 491 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: In your book, you talk about going Megan, if I'm 492 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: remembering correctly, to the Cincinnati Children's Reading and Discovery Center, 493 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: tell me what you learned there. They spoke of something 494 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: called the Goldilocks effect. Tell me about that. 495 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: So the Goldilocks effect, as the old story goes, Remember, 496 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 3: there's there's parts that's too hot, in pars that's too cold, 497 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: and then there's parts that's just right, and a bed 498 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: that's too soft, in a bed that's too hard, in 499 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: a bed that's just right. So the Goldilocks of effect 500 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,360 Speaker 3: obviously refers to the thing that is just right and 501 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 3: that is just this is what happened, what the researchers 502 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 3: there did, and the research which was led by John Hutton, 503 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 3: I should credit him. They put children through scanners and 504 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 3: then look to see what brain domains were activated under 505 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 3: certain circumstances. So they showed the children, for instance, they 506 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 3: showed them video, they showed them still pictures. They allowed 507 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 3: the children to listen to a story simply read with 508 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 3: no visuals, and then the Goldilocks moment was these were 509 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 3: young children. They were sort of roughly four year olds, 510 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 3: but three to five, but mostly four year olds. The 511 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 3: Goldilocks was essentially the picture book Raymond. So it was 512 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 3: hearing a story read aloud and seeing pictures that didn't 513 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: jump around, that didn't move because the thing with video, 514 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 3: you know, you mentioned earlier about phones and how people's 515 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 3: attentions pan jumps around, but it very much engages our 516 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: the portions of our brain that you know, register sort 517 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: of the shock and awe of moving things, of things 518 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: that are happening quickly. But there can't be there simply 519 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 3: cannot be deeper reflection if it's all going so fast, 520 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: jump jump, jump, cut. You know, a child can't make 521 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 3: there's no sense, there's no moment to pause, and some 522 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 3: of the deep work that happens in the brain really 523 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 3: helping to habituate the brain to concentration and to focus 524 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 3: and all of these wonderful things that we want to 525 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 3: achieve with children. Yeah, developing empathy and theory of mind 526 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 3: and all that that really can only that work can 527 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 3: only take place at a more sedate pace. So a 528 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 3: picture book is really it is the Goldilocks. Just write porridge, 529 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 3: just right chair, just right bed, because it takes place 530 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: in a way that gives a child time to process 531 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: what's happening at a deeper level, and the different brain 532 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 3: domains communicate, allowing you know, thoughts to flow in. 533 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, somewhere in the book you write, and I'm gonna 534 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: quote you, you write, besides developing language facility, empathy, and 535 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: cultural literacy, reading a loud creates a deep bond between 536 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: reader and listener, sweeping them together in a lovely neurochemical tsunami. 537 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: I love that lot because it's so true. And look, 538 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: you mentioned the study at the Cincinnati Reading and Development Center. 539 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: There was another study I read, and the researchers basically 540 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: put adults into an MRI and they fed audio into 541 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: their ears. Of a chapter of Charles Dickens, and their 542 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: brains fired in the same domains, in the same place 543 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: at the same time. Their breathing also became consistent. No 544 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 1: matter who they were, old, young, black, white, they had 545 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: a consistency of not only brain activity, but the breathing regulated. 546 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: And the researcher said, story was a deep brain device 547 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: capable of making people react in the same way at 548 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: the same time, right right. 549 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: That's fantastic. I don't know about that. I would love 550 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: to see it. That is exactly what I found when 551 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 3: I was researching my book, that this was one of 552 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: the one of the many knock on extraordinary things, one 553 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: of the explanations for the for the that feeling of 554 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 3: goodness that happens. There's some connection and symmetry and synchronicity 555 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: and whatever it is you know when you're when someone's 556 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: reading to you, because your brain's literally synchronize. And this 557 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: doesn't just happen in reading, it can also happen. Let's 558 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 3: say you have a great raconteur spinning a story. If 559 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 3: you were to monitor the brain of the raconteur and 560 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 3: the brains of the people listening to the story, which 561 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,239 Speaker 3: is actually what happens when someone's reading aloud. It's as 562 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 3: though you impersonate the great raconteur, You're the great story Ah. 563 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 3: The brains synchronize, uh, in response to the story, and 564 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 3: that produces that chemical reality, which is that everybody is 565 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 3: kind of on the same page and feels together. And 566 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 3: it's one of the and as you as you say 567 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: this is this can be felt not just by children 568 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 3: and by parents, but you know, for the book, I 569 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 3: and spent some time with a reading group for very 570 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: old people. Some of them were at that time a 571 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,719 Speaker 3: few years ago, they had survived the Holocaust. They were 572 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: children at the time, and they felt that this shared 573 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: reading experience that they had. It was a once a 574 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 3: week thing, for an hour kind of thing. Somebody would 575 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 3: read to them and they would all follow along. They 576 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 3: experienced that synchronicity and it was immensely restorative and joyful, 577 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 3: and it was, you know, a way to use the brain, 578 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 3: to feel the brain and the emotions being engaged without 579 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 3: having you know, or without some people. I mean, of course, 580 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: people lose their ability to read. They can't move around 581 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 3: very much in extreme old age, you know, they don't 582 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: get touched very often in extreme old age, and this 583 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: was a way to kind of have the whole human person, 584 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 3: the soul of the person, you know, catered to just 585 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 3: through the written word turned into the spoken word. I mean, 586 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 3: really quite magical. 587 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll say, I'll say, and deeply human were wired 588 00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 1: this way. I mean I had a great comedian one 589 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: tell me you know. I asked him, when you go out, 590 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: you what's the first thing you do? And he said, 591 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: the first thing you have to do is to get 592 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: them in your rhythm. You have to send out your 593 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: rhythm and impose it on them. And that's kind of 594 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: what a great rock on tour, a great reader does. 595 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: You kind of everybody gets swept up in the same vibe, 596 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: if you will. 597 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. And there's a kind of authority. Well, 598 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 3: you said you were a performer. You know this. I 599 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 3: mean if an actor comes on stage and says, well 600 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 3: I'm not really sure about this material, guys, everyone loses confidence. 601 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: But you come out and you occupy you have the 602 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 3: greatness in your mouth, as you said, occupy the role. 603 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 3: You begin to read. You are the authority. People can 604 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 3: kind of relax into the experience. This is one of 605 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 3: the things that is very noticeable in classrooms when teachers 606 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 3: use reading aloud, which anecdotally I understand that it's not 607 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 3: such a practice as it once was. But almost ever, 608 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: you scratch an adult and there's a story about how, oh, 609 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: my fourth grade teacher read to us. You know, everyone remembers, right. 610 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 3: And the great thing about it is in the classroom 611 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: setting is you have children very different abilities, some of 612 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 3: whom will maybe never be able to read for pleasure 613 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: because they just don't have the cognitive you know, to 614 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 3: do that or whatever they're the attention has been. But 615 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 3: in a classroom, it's kind of they're imprisoned. They have 616 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,479 Speaker 3: to be there. The teacher reads aloud, they can all 617 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 3: relax into the experience, and so the A student and 618 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 3: the C student can get a story at the same time. 619 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,479 Speaker 3: But it's kind of the same level of pleasure because 620 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 3: they can just relax. 621 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: You know. I have parents write me all the time, Megan, 622 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: and they tell me their kids ask them to reread 623 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: some picture book over and over and over again. What 624 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: is it about repetition? You know, there's a Christmas picture 625 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: book I did years ago. Every Christmas I get inundated 626 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: with more letters, and it's about that. My kids want 627 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: me to keep reading it, and I mean, I love this. 628 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: I mean that's why you Yeah, as an author, you're right, 629 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: you want people to experience it and make it a 630 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: part of their lives, their rituals. But why do why 631 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: do they want to hear it told again and again? 632 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 3: Well, okay, so there is an answer, or there are 633 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: some answers, but there is also an element of mystery. 634 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 3: So the mystery is we don't really know why that is, 635 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: but some of one answer is and and this is 636 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 3: documented that with each successive read, a child gets understands 637 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 3: more of what they're hearing, so they have Also there's 638 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 3: a kind of there's there's the pleasure of comprehension. There's 639 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 3: the pleasure of return and revisiting characters you're already familiar with. 640 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 3: We know this as adults, right, If you reread a book, 641 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 3: sometimes you get much more out of it the second time. 642 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 3: I just read Edith Wharton's Custom of the Country for 643 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 3: the third time, and I finally feel like I really 644 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 3: kind of extracted all the goodness from that story. And 645 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm a decent reader, but it 646 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 3: took me three times through just to really feel as 647 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 3: though I got it all and and so that that 648 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 3: happens with children. And there was a there was a 649 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 3: study done in England's years ago in which made up 650 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 3: words were smuggled into picture books and children were read 651 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 3: the picture books and and so these were words they 652 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 3: would never encounter in real life because they were in 653 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 3: fact made up things. But by the time that the 654 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 3: children had had the stories read to them several times, 655 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 3: they they had a meaning for these made up words, 656 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 3: you know, because that the context gave them something. So 657 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 3: so there, so there is all of that. There's that, 658 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 3: there's familiarity, and children, as you know, love, they love routine, 659 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 3: they love reassurance. Yes, it gives their world boundaries. And 660 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: you hear the same story over and over again is 661 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 3: to experience the pleasure over and over again. But again, 662 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 3: I think there is I think it's important to be 663 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 3: a little humble about it, that there there is an 664 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 3: element of mystery. It's not just pedagogical, because our experience 665 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 3: of literature is not just about you know, becoming a 666 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 3: better of citizen or learning more English or you know whatever. 667 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 3: It's not. It's not cod liver oil. There's magic here. 668 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 3: It's it's it's about beauty and something deep in the 669 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 3: heart and you know your Christmas story. Yeah, that's the 670 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 3: kind of story absolutely children. I mean, it would come 671 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 3: out annually. There's that, so there's the pleasure of return 672 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 3: at Christmas and yet that excitement when they opened the box. 673 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: Like and we're wired that way. We're just wired. I 674 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: think we're wired for story, We're wired for affection, we're 675 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: wired for imagination and joy. And I think that you know, 676 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: in some ways, those picture books, particularly those children's literature 677 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: or what once was children's literature, captured a lot of that. 678 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: Why is live reading preferable to audiobooks? 679 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 3: Megan, Oh, well, okay, so I think I'm a huge 680 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 3: proponent of audiobooks and I. 681 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: Love Yeah, me too. 682 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're great. The only preference I would 683 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 3: say is in the context of children, especially younger children, 684 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 3: because an audiobook, like a television show, is not going 685 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 3: to pause or answer your questions or give you a 686 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 3: moment to reflect. And so if a child is just listening, 687 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 3: So if you're listening, like say you're in the car, 688 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 3: somebody doesn't the child doesn't understand something that just went by. 689 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 3: And you can often when you're with a child, you 690 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 3: can see if you're reading to a child, you can 691 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 3: see the face goes a little blank, the eyes get 692 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 3: a little long focused, and you think, did you did 693 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 3: you understand that? And you can pause and stop. So 694 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 3: if you if you just put an audiobook on for 695 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 3: your child and you leave the room and there's nobody 696 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,879 Speaker 3: there to mediate or to be a resource, that that's fine. 697 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 3: The child may just have a wonderful time and not 698 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 3: it doesn't matter, you know, that's there is that it 699 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 3: doesn't always matter. But a live reading is you're much 700 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 3: more contingent. The child has the contingency of an adult 701 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 3: who is interested in the child getting from the story 702 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 3: what the story has to offer. So that's really that's 703 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 3: that's the principal reason. And contingency with young children is 704 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 3: very important. It's one of the ways that allows them 705 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 3: to learn. You know, you can't children learn from being 706 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 3: spoken to. They learn, they learn language certainly that way. 707 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 3: You can't just play like, you know, Mandarin for four 708 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 3: year olds to an English speaking child and expect the 709 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 3: four year old to get it. But a Mandarin speaker 710 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 3: can teach a four year old child Mandarin, you know, 711 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 3: to the very easy. 712 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: Easy Yeah, well for them, not for us. Yeah, no, 713 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: for me, the forty percent of fourth graders are beneath 714 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: reading proficiency. Now, yeah, Megan, a third of eighth graders 715 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: are not hitting the reading benchmarks. That's the largest percentage ever. 716 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: What does that mean for the country. 717 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 3: It's bad. It's bad news, Raymond. As you mentioned earlier 718 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 3: that there are there's an alarming number of functionally illiterate adults. 719 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 3: It is also the case, and this is I believe 720 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:47,799 Speaker 3: well documented that early illiteracy produces later illiteracy produces later criminality. 721 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 3: It's it's just you know, it's does it produce criminality? 722 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 3: Is it? Does it go along with it? I mean, 723 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 3: there are a lot of things that there are a 724 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 3: lot of kind of contributing factors, no doubt, but it 725 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 3: is absolutely the case that large numbers of people who 726 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 3: are in curs rated have very low literacy levels, and literacy, 727 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 3: you know, by eighth grade, it's kind of too late, 728 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 3: you know, It's I mean, I don't know that in 729 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 3: every individual case you would say it's too late. There 730 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 3: are probably reclamation efforts that can be made, but for 731 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 3: a for a classroom of children if most of them 732 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:19,879 Speaker 3: can't read, as we know from some schools that none 733 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 3: of them can read. You know, it's the knock on 734 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 3: effects are going to be profound that these are people 735 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: If you can't read, you know, it's leaving aside the 736 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 3: esoteric beauties of the past and the great conversation of 737 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 3: literature and intellectual development and all that. Of course, you 738 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 3: have no hope of penetrating any of that. But you 739 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 3: how even can you manage the simplest, you know, documentation 740 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 3: of you know, getting your car registered or whatever. You 741 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 3: can't read, It's really difficult to function in the world. 742 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the statistics are terrifying. I mean I pulled 743 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: this the other day. Two thirds of students who can't 744 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: read by fourth grade are more likely to end up 745 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: in poverty, welfare, or incarcerated. Right, I mean that's two thirds, 746 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: and now we have an explosion of illiteracy in the country. Right, 747 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: how do what would be your recommendation to parents for 748 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: exciting and addicting their children to reading? 749 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 3: So look, I'm going to sound like the man who 750 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 3: has a hammer. Everything is a nail, right, So in 751 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 3: my case, the key to all mythologies, the solution to 752 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 3: all difficulties is start reading aloud to your children and 753 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 3: do it every day for as long as you can, 754 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 3: until they will not let you do it to them anymore. 755 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:34,919 Speaker 3: And when they won't let you, read to them, read 756 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,880 Speaker 3: to each other, read to your husband, read to your parents, 757 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 3: read to the neighbors, you know, read to your dog, 758 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 3: read aloud as much as you can. So in this 759 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 3: you alluded earlier to an article I'd written for the 760 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 3: Journal a couple of weeks ago. I guess it was 761 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,040 Speaker 3: now about the disappearance of reading from the culture. Read 762 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 3: as if you being seen reading, You know, the literacy 763 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 3: of the country depends on you being seen reading. Because 764 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 3: we are all as social creatures, we respond to social norms. 765 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 3: And if reading used to be a social norm, it 766 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 3: was normal for people to read, to read on the train, 767 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 3: to read out loud, to a class, to read, you know, 768 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 3: I mean a lot of people used to. You could 769 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 3: see people. I was one of them. I'm afraid kids 770 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 3: walking along the sidewalk reading while they walked, because you 771 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 3: don't want to waste the time, you know, going from 772 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 3: one place for another. That's not the case now. The 773 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 3: thing that people are looking at they might be reading something, 774 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 3: but they're looking at their phones or at a device. 775 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 3: That's the norm. The norm Now you go into an 776 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 3: airport and everyone is reading a device. So if we 777 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,280 Speaker 3: care about reading books, we need to be seen reading books. 778 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 3: So and if we care about preserving literacy amongst our children, 779 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,200 Speaker 3: we need to read to them and show them what 780 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 3: books contain. I mentioned a little while ago about you know, 781 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,720 Speaker 3: in the classroom, how reading is this wonderful. It lifts 782 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 3: all boats. When a teacher reads aloud, all the children 783 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 3: get to enjoy the story at the same time, and that, 784 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 3: you know, the teacher is also showing that reading is 785 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 3: normal and exposing children who might not otherwise be able 786 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 3: to read for pleasure to the magical contents of books 787 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 3: that you open this artifact of paper and glue and 788 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 3: cardboard and inside it's a portal to other worlds. And 789 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 3: if a child has not had that experience and knowing 790 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 3: that that's what a book can do, how are they 791 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 3: ever going to find when when their screens everywhere promising 792 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 3: to take them wherever they don't even know they want 793 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 3: to go. Yeah, often places they don't want to go, 794 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 3: you know. So the only way that they're the younger 795 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,240 Speaker 3: people are going to know is if we show them. 796 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: Megan, as you were saying that, I was reminded, and 797 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,359 Speaker 1: I haven't thought about this obviously. For decades. I had 798 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: a fifth grade teacher here in New Orleans who he 799 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: would read us. He was a big mystery fan, Ellery Queen, 800 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: who nobody remembers anymore but Ellery Queen. They were a 801 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: mystery writing team. You remember Ellery Queen, and he would 802 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: read and they were short mysteries, but they were great 803 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: visual who done it. And he would read the mystery 804 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: up until the body dropped and the mystery was set, 805 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: and then he closed the book and he'd say, gentlemen, 806 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 1: whoever wants to check it out, here it is. And 807 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: I remember elbowing people out of the way to get 808 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: to that Ellery Queen book. And he was the one 809 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: who really addicted me to story mysteries. And I have 810 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: to say, whether I'm writing for TV or writing a book, 811 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: that idea of creating a little cliffhanger in that sense 812 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: of mystery it does. It is kind of something I've 813 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: always done, and it just clicked that it's relatable to that. 814 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 3: Well, he knew it. He was doing, your teacher, he 815 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 3: really knew. 816 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 1: So. 817 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,160 Speaker 3: When I was working in Channa Hour, I interviewed a 818 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 3: woman who I taught at a community college outside Washington, DC, 819 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,360 Speaker 3: and she had, you know, a lot of adult students 820 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 3: who was teaching English. And you know, a lot of 821 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,240 Speaker 3: her students had literally they'd come through the whole public 822 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,879 Speaker 3: education system and had never read a book cover to cover. 823 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 3: That says something about our public education custom I think 824 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 3: a lot. But you know, those were people who came 825 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 3: they were coming to a higher education in later life, 826 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 3: and some of them had had some real knocks. And 827 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 3: what she would do is exactly what your teacher would do. 828 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 3: She would read them passages from sort of sexy, violent 829 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,360 Speaker 3: books by James Patterson. Actually I don't know if they're violent, 830 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 3: but I remember she said they were sexy. And you know, 831 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 3: these are adult students. She's not kind of perverting the 832 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 3: minds of the young or anything. And people who had 833 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 3: never read a book in their lives before would come 834 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 3: up at the end of class and say, who's that 835 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 3: author I wanted, you know, and she would find that 836 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 3: some of them would like, they'd take the book home 837 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 3: and they'd stay up all night finishing it. And you know, 838 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 3: it might not be the vehicle that these people might 839 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 3: never go on to read Dickens. Okay, fair enough, but 840 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,320 Speaker 3: at least they were getting that kind of deep pleasure 841 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,839 Speaker 3: that comes from running words on the page through your 842 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 3: brain and creating this whole story. 843 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. The thirst for stories, the thirst for human knowledge, 844 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: the thirst for connecting with characters and people in places 845 00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: you'll never otherwise encounters. That's a good human trade and 846 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,719 Speaker 1: something we should all want. I mean, I have to 847 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: end with this. There was there was a purge over 848 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: the last few years of people like Laura Ingalls Wilder. Uh. 849 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,000 Speaker 1: They stripped her name from awards and and wrote her 850 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,960 Speaker 1: off as a racist. Doctor Seuss books, you'll remember, were 851 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: removed from circulation by the Seuss estate credit for allegedly 852 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: offensive illustrations. Even Shakespeare has written off as white supremacist. 853 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,719 Speaker 1: Is there a reappraisal now of these works? I know, 854 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: I know there's a Little House on the Prairie TV reboot, 855 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:30,799 Speaker 1: but I don't know if that. 856 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 3: Oh I didn't know about that. But yes, I do 857 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 3: think there is a reappraisal, and I think I think 858 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 3: it's come not a moment too soon. 859 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 1: Uh. 860 00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 3: There, you know, you're you're right, And it's not not 861 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,840 Speaker 3: not just Laura Ingles Wilder and and and Doctor Seuss, 862 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 3: but also even raw Dahl. You know, his his books 863 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 3: were boldlerized, which is a term initially applied to Shakespeare. 864 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 3: There was a guy called Thomas Boulder who thought Shakespeare 865 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 3: is very a little bit indecent for reading in the 866 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,960 Speaker 3: family setting, you know, all those bodice rippings and whatnot. 867 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: Caught a way. 868 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think so. I think, I think, you know, 869 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 3: people talk about a vibe shift, you know, I don't 870 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 3: know if it's come in time. Really, I think that 871 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,759 Speaker 3: they're but the forces of revolution are on the back 872 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,480 Speaker 3: foot now. I think we do have a problem in 873 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,359 Speaker 3: our schools there. Undoubtedly we have a problem in our 874 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 3: schools with teachers who really wish to expunge the Western canon, 875 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 3: and they really wish to cut students off from books 876 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 3: that in some way, you know, transgress early twenty first 877 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:36,120 Speaker 3: century political fashion. But there is a reappraisal, and I think, 878 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 3: you know, in the case of Laura Ingles Wilder in particular. 879 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 3: I recently wrote about this for the Journal. There's a 880 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 3: wonderful book which I highly recommend to everyone, especially anyone 881 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 3: who loves those books. It's called Too Good to Be 882 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 3: Altogether Lost, and it urges a reappraisal of the body 883 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 3: of work of Laura Ingles Wilder, and I'm a huge 884 00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 3: fan of those books. They are much much more nuanced 885 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,719 Speaker 3: than the revolutionaries would have you think. So, yeah, I 886 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 3: think we're I think we're in I think we're in 887 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 3: a better place than we were, certainly five years ago, 888 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,760 Speaker 3: and there is a reclamation happening. 889 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,279 Speaker 1: What's the trend you're seeing in kids live? I mean, 890 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: nobody sits atop this world the way you do. You 891 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: get all this incoming, you get everything picture books and 892 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: young adult romances and adventure stories and twisted fairy tales. 893 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: What is the scariest trend and the best trend you're seeing? 894 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 3: Well, Raymond, I have not actually been doing one hundred 895 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 3: percent children's books now for a little over a year. 896 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 3: I'm just I decided, actually I found the trends too dispiriting, 897 00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 3: and after twenty years of writing about children's books one 898 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 3: hundred percent, I'm now doing them twenty five percent. And 899 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 3: I'm mostly working on books for younger children, because I 900 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 3: think that's still where there's more beauty and creativity, reliably. 901 00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: So. 902 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 3: One of the things I've noticed about a lot of 903 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 3: children's writing, and again it's you know, this is a 904 00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 3: this is a business. It's receptive to the market, and 905 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 3: the marketplace in the last five or ten years, as 906 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 3: we know, has been undergoing a kind of cultural revolution, 907 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 3: as so many other parts of our society, and this 908 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 3: very bruising, very unpleasant, repunitive kind of movement that's been 909 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 3: a foot in the country. And one of the things 910 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 3: that I think is has has disappeared as an important 911 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:35,359 Speaker 3: part of storytelling is in fact storytelling. Now I don't 912 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,240 Speaker 3: include you in this number, but there are so many 913 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 3: books that seem there. The point of the book is 914 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 3: to inculcate contemporary values. The point of the book is 915 00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,000 Speaker 3: not to take a child on an adventure, not to 916 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 3: come up with something like Once upon a Time, I mean, 917 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,359 Speaker 3: take me to a far away place that I've never 918 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 3: heard of and tell me something that I haven't already heard. No, no, no, 919 00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 3: there's lots and lots of catechizing about power dynamics and 920 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,760 Speaker 3: privilege and decentering, and you know, all of the jargon 921 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 3: has worked its way into books. You know, there was 922 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 3: there's just been an immense push to get gender ideology 923 00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 3: into every level of book. And I do think possibly 924 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,239 Speaker 3: that that is there's still plenty of it and you 925 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,319 Speaker 3: have to be wary because it comes and it comes 926 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 3: in different it comes under different guises. Right, I think 927 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,799 Speaker 3: parents have to be wary. But I but I think 928 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:28,640 Speaker 3: that we're getting a little less of that now. Is 929 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,680 Speaker 3: that because the book industry is backing away from its 930 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 3: commitment to gender ideology? Probably not. It might just be 931 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:41,040 Speaker 3: a response to market changes. Do you have activist teachers 932 00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 3: people in the publishing industry, people who are writing for 933 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 3: publishing they want to put forth a particular idea and 934 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 3: what are considered or what we're considered retrograde ideas, patriotism, 935 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,480 Speaker 3: traditional family, whatever. You know, these are things you want 936 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,240 Speaker 3: to back away from or undermine. 937 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,680 Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, it's a it's it is. You see the 938 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: battleground around children's lit, and when you walk through that section, 939 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,239 Speaker 1: you sort of see ideology everywhere. When everybody just wants 940 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: a good story and a laugh and a good time 941 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,800 Speaker 1: with their with their children and to feel a little uplifted. 942 00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: And if you can add a dash of beauty, why not, Megan, 943 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: you put that. 944 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,560 Speaker 3: On that that is, put that in put that in 945 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 3: stone somewhere. Yeah. 946 00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,319 Speaker 1: Add I'm gonna get my I'm gonna get my my 947 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: chisel a minute we finish here. Meghan Cox Gurdon, thank 948 00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:35,840 Speaker 1: you so much for being here. And Meghan's book, The 949 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,160 Speaker 1: Enchanted Hour of the Miraculous Power of Reading Aloud in 950 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: the Age of Distraction is available everywhere. You really should 951 00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 1: get it. You come away fuller after reading it, and 952 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,359 Speaker 1: it will give you a sense of the importance of 953 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,880 Speaker 1: what used to be commonplace in families and in our culture. Meghan, 954 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: thanks again for being Thanks pleasure, and I hope you'll 955 00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 1: come back to a royal Grande soon. Why live a dry, 956 00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,520 Speaker 1: constricted life when if you fill it with good things, 957 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: it can flow into a broad, driving Arroyo Grande. I'm 958 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,000 Speaker 1: raimed at Arroyo. Make sure to subscribe like this episode. 959 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for diving in and we'll see you next. Joe. 960 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. It's 961 00:52:15,719 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.