1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: today's best minds. We're on vacation, but that doesn't mean 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: we don't have an amazing show for you today. Mark 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Rascoe Lusto drops by to talk to us about his 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: recent trip to Ukraine. But first we have law Dorc 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: news is Chris Guidner. Welcome back to Fast Politics. Chris, Hi, 8 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you this Supreme Court season. 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: They took the pills, the abortion pills. They have a 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: case with that. They have a lot of stuff on 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: their docket that could be really fucked discussed. 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: This is a big term. 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 3: We say that every year, and sadly it's often true. 14 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 3: I mean, we've now got this possibility of Trump related 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: cases going up quickly. We've got this case over medication abortion. 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 3: We've got these really big cases over the administrative state, 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,639 Speaker 3: which sounds really intricate and boring, but it really comes 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 3: down to who in our government has the power and 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: whether the executive branches is actually able to govern or 20 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 3: whether the Supreme Board is just going to have the 21 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: final say and be able to tell us at all 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 3: times what government is able to do. 23 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard a lot of speculation, read a 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: lot of speculation about the Supreme Court and what it 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: might do and how it might try to prove itself 26 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: to be lost in saying that it has I mean, 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: am I just the boy whistling in the dark to 28 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: keep myself from being afraid? 29 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 3: I don't think you are completely with the caveat that 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,639 Speaker 3: anything can always get worse. I think that we are 31 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: seeing evidence that the public attention and public pressure on 32 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 3: the Court is having an effect, and that is a 33 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 3: good thing. I think we are seeing evidence that, particularly 34 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: Chief Justice Roberts and then the three trumpetpointees, who, let's 35 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 3: face it, they're looking at this as I'm going to 36 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: be on the Court for the next twenty years or 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 3: so or longer, and so it's not necessarily a one 38 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 3: month decision about what to do, and they are looking 39 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 3: at the long term implications for the credibility of the 40 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: Court and realizing that you might need to find some limits. 41 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: Or you're going to lose all of your authority. 42 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: It's true, there's a lot. I mean, I'm looking at 43 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: the dock at now, and I'm just looking at all 44 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: these case says Purdue Pharma case. I mean, there's some 45 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: environmental cases, there's More versus United States. Well there's another 46 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: NR case. I mean, what are you looking at here? 47 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: The More case is a perfect example. 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 3: It's a case that when the Justices took it, it's 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: about this weather. Unrealized income can be taxed under the 50 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 3: sixteenth Amendment, And the original sort of take when the 51 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 3: Supreme Court took it was this could be a huge 52 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: case where they essentially rule any wealth tax off the board. 53 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: Which is the dream. Let's be honest, all those billionaires, 54 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: that's their dream. 55 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 3: The Wall Street Journal issued an editorial the day after 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court granted cert saying, this is a really 57 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: big case about the wealth tax. But then we got 58 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: into arguments and it turned out to sort of be 59 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: I mean, it's not obviously not a dud of a case. 60 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 3: It's still important, but the debate and discussion ended up 61 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 3: being over a much more narrow issue, and it seems 62 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 3: like we're gonna get a lot of that this term 63 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: where it only takes four justices to grant certain a case, 64 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 3: to agree to hear a case, but that doesn't mean 65 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 3: that that's where a case is going to end. This 66 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 3: is the fallout from Dobbs. We've talked for a year 67 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: and a half about the fallout from Dobbs on abortion, 68 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: both for restrictions and also for how it's sort of 69 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 3: changed the electorate. But I think there's a real long 70 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 3: term effect on the Court, or at least a mid 71 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: term effect on the Court that they realized that there 72 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 3: are political, small pe political consequences to the courts standing 73 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 3: in society when they go to far. We're watching cases 74 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: like more, We're watching cases like it was originally low 75 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 3: or bright enterprises, but now it's this case called Relentless 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 3: that is addressing how much deference federal agencies get at 77 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 3: interpreting laws. And the reality is that the federal government 78 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: is so big that you need to give some deference 79 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: to agencies or you're not going to be able to 80 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: run a government. But the counter of that is maybe 81 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 3: there are some people who don't want the federal government 82 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 3: to be able to run, and so they would like 83 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: that deference to be gone. And we're going to have 84 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 3: arguments in that case toward the middle of January. 85 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: And then there's the big blockbuster, which is raining. 86 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 3: There was the big Blockbusterrahamian then weheard arguments in it, 87 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 3: and this is the case about there's a federal law 88 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 3: that if somebody has a standing domestic violence restraining order 89 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: out against them, that they cannot have a fire. And 90 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: the question in the case is whether that federal law 91 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 3: is unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. In light of this 92 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 3: Clarence Thomas inspired Second Amendment history and tradition, if the 93 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 3: founding fathers could beat their wives, then why can't people? Now, Yeah, 94 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 3: that's sort of the harsh end of Clarence Thomas's interpretation 95 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 3: of the Second Amendment. And this case is a put 96 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: your money where your mouth his case in a way. 97 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 3: And when we heard arguments, it sounded like a whole 98 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: lot of the Court is not willing to go that far, 99 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: and they're likely to sort of pull back on what 100 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: Bruin means in practice. Bruin was the case striking down 101 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: New York's gun case. 102 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: Right. That's interesting because they just decided Bruin like ten 103 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: weeks ago. I mean, why do you think that is? 104 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: I think it was another situation liked Awe where the 105 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 3: Supreme Court has been going since Heller for nearly twenty 106 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 3: years in this direction of a robust Second Amendment right 107 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 3: and Bruin came down. 108 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: And the goal with Bruin was to limit states, cities, 109 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: municipalities from being able to create their own gun restrictions. 110 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it seemed like it was sort of this 111 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 3: goal was being reached from the right, from the NRA people. 112 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: But then reality set in, and as is the modern 113 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: reality in America, there were a lot of mass shootings 114 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 3: and it became pretty clear that this was not going 115 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: to be a workable solution. And so we got the 116 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 3: Rahemi arguments that were very skeptical of a world in 117 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 3: which this federal law would not be allowed. And then 118 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: we perhaps even more surprisingly, just in December here the 119 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,679 Speaker 3: Supreme Court allow to Illinois's assault weapons ban to remain 120 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: in effect during litigation. After the Seventh Circuit had held 121 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: that the ban was allowed the Supreme Court, the challengers 122 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: to Illinois law came up to the Supreme Court on 123 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: the shadow docket and asked for the Illinois law to 124 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: be put on hold during their expected appeal to the 125 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court last week, with no descents, 126 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: said the law can go into effect until we make 127 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 3: a further decision on it that sends a message to 128 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 3: the lower courts that that is a law that they 129 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: are allowing to go into effect. It's on the shadow docket. 130 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: It wasn't a decision on the merits. But just like 131 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 3: the bad shadow docket decision. Second message, Like with Texas 132 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 3: SP eight back in the day, this sends a message 133 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: as well. 134 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: So let's talk about this abortion law. This is this case, 135 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: the metha pristone. It was brought to a crazy trump 136 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: a judge on a docket that they knew they would 137 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: get him, Matthew cosmeric and in Texas, in Northern District 138 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: of Texas. They knew they were going to get him. 139 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: They knew he was a trumpet point d. They knew 140 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: he was a complete zealot. He was like, that's it. 141 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: The FDA is wrong, even though it's been a proof 142 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: since two thousand and the Comstock Act is legit, and 143 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: let's let's go ban this thing now. It's cooked up 144 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: to them. This is a case, I feel like where 145 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: it's about abortion, but it's also about can you take 146 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: drugs off the market because you don't like what they do? 147 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, this was the weird situation where you had planned. 148 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: Parenthood and the FDA and big pharma all on the 149 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: same side. 150 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: We don't get that a lot this. 151 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: Is ultimately could be devastating to big pharma. 152 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: It could in a sense. 153 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: We did have an example of sort of good news 154 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 3: such as it comes from this court. 155 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: Right, good news. It needs quotes around it, Yeah, good 156 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: good good issue. 157 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 3: Let these twenty twenty three edition news which was now 158 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: When this case was heard at the Fifth Circuit, the 159 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: Fifth Circuit pulled back part of Kesmeric's ruling. What they 160 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 3: said is the original two thousand approval of mephropristown. The 161 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 3: challenge to that was on time. You can't bring it, 162 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 3: you're too late. What the Fifth Circuit upheld was Kasmeric's 163 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 3: ruling as to the later changes easing access to the 164 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: drug in twenty sixteen. 165 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one. 166 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 3: That includes the ending of the in person requirement, so 167 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: allowing it to be sent via mail, and the DOJ 168 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: and Danko, who makes miffrapracts, went to the Supreme Court 169 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 3: and said, we want you to hear this appeal to 170 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 3: reverse the Fifth Circuit on those decisions so to allow 171 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 3: the eased access. The challengers to mif for pristone's approval 172 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: said if you take DOJ's case. We also want you 173 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: to take the underlying two thousand approval. We want to 174 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: appeal the Fifth Circuits ruling against us on that, and 175 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: what the Supreme Court did earlier in December said we're 176 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: going to take DOJ and Danko's request about reversing the 177 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 3: Fifth Circuit on the eased access, but we're not going 178 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 3: to take the challengers appeal of the two thousand approval. 179 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: So that again for twenty twenty three, is a good sign. 180 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: That says the Supreme Court doesn't even want to consider 181 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: the two thousand approval. That is fine, that is safe 182 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 3: and is not going to be on appeal at the 183 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: Supreme Court. All that's going to be appealed, which is 184 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 3: still important, particularly in a post row environment, is the 185 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: eased restriction. It allows for later prescription, allows for fewer appointments. 186 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: Have they had the oral arguments yet? 187 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 3: No, That will be probably in April, could be in March. 188 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: I haven't looked at the calendary. It would either be 189 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: late March or late April. 190 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: Do you think that this Supreme Court as you're listening 191 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: to them, I want to ask you about this idea 192 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: that Allie Mestyle had told me once that he thought, actually, 193 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: Amy Cony Barrett was the smartest of these new justices. 194 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 3: Oh, that's definitely true. Okay, it's like level degrees of difference. 195 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, so talk to me about that, because I 196 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: think that's pretty interesting. I mean, she's definitely a zalad, 197 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: a crazy religious salad. But let's talk about that. 198 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 3: The really interesting thing. And I just read somewhere about it. 199 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 3: Oh it was people were we're sharing information news articles 200 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 3: from when Sandrade O'Connor was confirmed, and there was the 201 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 3: line in the New York Times article from Linda Greenhouse 202 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: from the day of her confirmation vote about the fact 203 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: that basically you don't know what's going to happen after 204 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: a justice is on a court for a long time 205 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: once they're confirmed. The fact is that all of these 206 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 3: justices that were basically hand picked by Leonard Leo were 207 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: largely picked to overturn Row, and they did that. But 208 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: the fact is that the law is a very broad area. 209 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 2: There's a lot of things that are covered. 210 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: By the law, and I think what we're going to 211 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 3: see over time is that it's very easy in light 212 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: of the outcome in Row, in light of some of 213 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: the most clear ideological cases overturning affirmative action. That like 214 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: to see these three new justices as the three trumpet points, 215 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: and I there will be some ways in which they're similar, 216 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: but they're also just very different. And I think over time, 217 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 3: as they are on the court for longer and sort 218 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 3: of stake out their areas of expertise, like, we're going 219 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: to see them in different ways. And I think the 220 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: fact is that Justice Barrett is really smart, and I 221 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: think we see that already in the ways in which 222 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: sort of her and Justice Kagan engage on things, the 223 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: ways in which she's engaged already with Justice Jackson on things. 224 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: And while I would gladly get rid of her. 225 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 3: Vote anytime that we could on the court, I don't 226 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 3: think she's often going to be voting in ways that 227 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: I agree with. I think that she definitely helps raise 228 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: the level of argument in a way that honestly helps 229 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: Kagan at times being able to fight with somebody at 230 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: her level. 231 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: So is Kagan the smartest of the liberal. 232 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 3: Justice I don't know about that. I think the Jackson 233 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: is certainly holding her way. 234 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's very smart, but we're. 235 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: Still very new and her time on the court, I 236 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 3: always say, like, you don't want to judge a justice 237 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: their first like year or two, because, like, especially if 238 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: they've been in an appeals court judge before, this is 239 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: very different. You're making the decisions now, and if you 240 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: were an appeals court judge before, you sort of had 241 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 3: adapted to a way of thinking that was like deferring 242 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: to what the Supreme Court's precedents were, that you don't 243 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 3: need to do anymore. 244 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: And so a lot of people think this year is 245 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: going to be less insane than previous years of this court. 246 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: Do you think that's right or do you think we're 247 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: all setting ourselves up? 248 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: I think that's right. 249 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: I think the big problem with this term is that 250 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: some of the most important cases are the least sexy cases. 251 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 3: They are these administrative lost cases. There was this case 252 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: over the method of funding the Consumer Protection Bureau consumer 253 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 3: Financial Protection Bureau. There is going to be this relentless 254 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: case over whether we cheap deference to agencies. This issue 255 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 3: of who has the final say, the executive branch, the 256 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: legislative branch, the judicial branch at different points in our 257 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: history has changed over time, and as the federal government grew, 258 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 3: it became pretty clear that there were so many decisions 259 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 3: being made that you had to let the experts within 260 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 3: agencies who had been hired, not political people, but people 261 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: who were spending their lives working at the EPA, working 262 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: in the Social Security Administration, working in the securities in 263 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 3: exchange commit we have to defer to them to make 264 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: these basic decisions about how we're organizing these things. And 265 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 3: if the Supreme Court pulls that back and says, no, 266 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: we're not going to defer to agencies, it could really 267 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 3: upend the stability of a whole lot of agencies and 268 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 3: then with that rippling out from there, a whole lot 269 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 3: of industries. 270 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks that was great, 271 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, Molly. Mark Rostau Lusto is a scholar of 272 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: religion in Hungary and Romania, as well as managing editor 273 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: of the Journal of Global Catholicism. Welcome back to Fast Politics, 274 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: Mark Gustau. 275 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: Maali, it's great to be here. 276 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: So you have been in a lot of places. Explain 277 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: to me what's happening in western Ukraine right now. 278 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: I just got back from two weeks of reporting in Ukraine. 279 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 4: I was really kind of all up and down the 280 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 4: western area of the country up to Leviv and down 281 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 4: to cities around the Slovakian and Hungarian border. And I 282 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 4: have to say that the mood of the country right 283 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 4: now is really anxious, very very anxious, very insecure. The 284 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 4: war is just ruling. The most professional soldiers, the ones 285 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 4: who have had trained to be in the army at 286 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 4: the beginning, they have died and recruits are replacing them. 287 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 4: In the small western Ukrainian city where I was spent, 288 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 4: where I spent most of the time, which was really 289 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 4: far from the front lines, now, I had to pause 290 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 4: in my car behind long funeral processions multiple times a day. 291 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 4: There were air raid sirens and people were you know, 292 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 4: they're very aware of the war and the way it's going, 293 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 4: and it's causing a lot of people to have a 294 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 4: deep sense of insecurity and unease they are. 295 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: Economy was so flooded with aid, buddy, right, I mean, 296 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: now is it just completely dried up? 297 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 4: There is still aid coming in the EU, and certainly 298 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 4: the the US government is still sending aid and there 299 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 4: are humanitarian organizations that are working with the huge numbers 300 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 4: of internal refugees in the country. You know, over five 301 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 4: million people were displaced just inside Ukraine. But it is 302 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 4: true that militarily, the summer did not show a lot 303 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: of improvement in terms of the moving of the front lines. 304 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 4: I spoke with one man, a friend who works for 305 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 4: humanitarian NGO. You know, he was really wanted to tell 306 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 4: me about the kind of political situation that's going on 307 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 4: in Ukraine right now. He said that Zolinsky has really 308 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 4: boxed himself into a corner. 309 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: It would be a. 310 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 4: Great tragedy and really the West's fault if Ukraine had 311 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 4: to see territory to putin Although it might have to happen, 312 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 4: he said, the problem is that Zelinsky has really staked 313 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 4: his entire political career on winning back everything, every little 314 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 4: inch of land, and so Zelensky is stuck between a 315 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 4: rock and a hard place because if negotiations do begin, 316 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 4: he would really have to resign. So my friend said, 317 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 4: you know, I don't know who takes his place. That's 318 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 4: one of the other kind of really anxiety provoking things. 319 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 4: It's not really clear if there's a better option. Zelensky 320 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 4: has done such an amazing job. 321 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 1: Zelensky is losing the confidence of his people. 322 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 4: I wouldn't go that far, Molly, but you know, I 323 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 4: think that my friend finished everything. He wanted to say 324 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 4: by saying he's the best that we have, right, So 325 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 4: you know, I wouldn't say that he's losing the confidence. 326 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 4: I would just more kind of broadly say that it's 327 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 4: a difficult time and people are really wondering what the 328 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: way forward is. 329 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: Is there a way to make a deal here? It 330 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: feels like they're going to just keep going with this. 331 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't there a way to make some kind 332 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: of deal with Putin? Or do you think it's just 333 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: he's so unreliable you. 334 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 4: Can I mean, I think history has told us that 335 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 4: when you make deals with fascist dictators doesn't lead to 336 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 4: happy things for the rest of the world. 337 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Right, Oh this is true, But I mean I don't 338 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: trust Putin. But I also I don't know where you go, right, 339 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: because there's no appetite from America, right, there's fairly appetite 340 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: for Israel, and Israel has sort of more of a 341 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: historical relationship with the American AID and even they are 342 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: just really may not even get any aide. So do 343 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: you think there's any sort of hail Mary here? 344 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 4: Well, I don't think we should be looking for easy solutions, 345 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 4: you know, I mean, wars never end with you know, easy, quick, 346 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 4: idealistic and idealized endgames. That's not how geopolitics works, even 347 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 4: when we're talking about kind of peaceful conflicts. And here 348 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 4: we're talking about a brutal, imperialistic state trying to take 349 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 4: over another state. So I don't think there's going to 350 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 4: be a Hail Mary. I think people who presented the 351 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: conflict as something that could be easily one we're at 352 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 4: the beginning at least, we're you know, optimistic, too optimist. 353 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 2: But the other thing, you. 354 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 4: Know, I think that what we're sort of losing touch 355 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 4: with and this was why I went there, which was 356 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 4: one of the reasons why I went and did this reporting, 357 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 4: is that what Ukrainians are trying to do right now, 358 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: and one of the reasons why we in the United States, 359 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: especially on the left, should support the US military aid 360 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 4: for Ukraine is that they're trying to build a multi racial, 361 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 4: multi ethnic, multi religious, open and free democracy. And that's 362 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 4: really what we're trying to support in Ukraine right now, 363 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 4: through military aid, through humanitarian aid, through all sorts of 364 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 4: different kinds of aid. You know, we're talking about an 365 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 4: aspiring European society, and you know, Europe itself, the EU 366 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 4: has recognized that aspiration to be realist sincere by agreeing 367 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 4: to open formal accession negotiations. 368 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, we're barely hanging on here, right, 369 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: Get it. 370 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 4: When people on the left say that we have problems 371 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 4: of our own at home, not to demonize that position, 372 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 4: but I would say that the left has an isolationist 373 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 4: problem of its own that we need to confront. You 374 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 4: know that everybody talks about the isolationism of the right, 375 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 4: but there is absolutely an isolationism of the left, and 376 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 4: both are problematic, not equally problematic, but problematic. So there 377 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: have been increasingly strong calls amongst progressives to stop sending 378 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 4: money to Ukraine military aid and all sorts of other 379 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 4: kinds of aid. And you know, oftentimes those arguments are 380 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 4: paired with the claim that we have injustices of our 381 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 4: own in the US to reckon with. And oftentimes people 382 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 4: on the left say that the war is NATO's fault 383 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 4: for expanding into Russian's fear of influence and provoking Russia. 384 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone thinks that. I mean, I've read 385 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: it in the Nation, right, but I mean, ultimately that's 386 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: a very, very sort of horroreshoe I mean Putin just 387 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: decided this was an easy get for him. I don't 388 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: think there's anything that Ukraine could have done that would 389 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: have prevented it. I mean, he tried it before, you know. 390 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is just he feels that Russia is 391 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: still entitled to that. Nobody wants Ukraine to have to 392 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: make a deal with Putin. But Ukraine might have to 393 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: make a deal with Putin. What would that look like? 394 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 4: That's hard to say, Molly. I'm not going to be 395 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 4: sitting around that table. I don't think that Ukrainians should 396 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,880 Speaker 4: approach that table anytime. I don't think that the US 397 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 4: government should force them or push them strongly. 398 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think the US government can force them. 399 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: The US government is just one of the many kind 400 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,719 Speaker 1: of supports that Ukraine has, And there's really I mean, 401 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: there's certainly a school of thought that Europe may backstop them. 402 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: But I'm just thinking about sort of like in the 403 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: case of like you have sort of a limited window 404 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: of what you can get done, what does that look like? 405 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 4: Well, So, I mean I would say that, Molly, if 406 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 4: you plopped yourself down in Ukraine and you said to 407 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 4: the average person on the street, you're going to have 408 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 4: to negotiate with Putin, you get thrown out of the room, 409 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 4: not probably aggressively, but you'd get shown the door. If 410 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 4: those conversations are happening, and I'm not saying that they are, 411 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 4: but if they're happening, they're happening amongst. 412 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: Ukrainians, right right. 413 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: I mean it's not for us on the left in 414 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 4: the US public commentators or even politicians to start telling 415 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 4: Ukrainians exactly how to handle that, right. 416 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: It's more of like a game. Thats how with may 417 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: question what can they do? 418 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: I can't answer the question. 419 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: I can't speculate down that path because the consequences of 420 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: doing that are just going to be way too strong. Okay, 421 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 4: to publicly question the Ukrainian war effort right now, even 422 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: despite all the anxieties and all the uncertainties that people have, 423 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 4: there is too politically damaging. I mean, it plays into 424 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 4: Putin's hands. Putin wants people to start questioning Ukraine's collective 425 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 4: will to defend itself. 426 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: I mean I just meant like, if they can't get 427 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: any more money, I mean, you. 428 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: Know that also benefits him. 429 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: I know it benefits him. Here's the problem. It's like 430 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: in my mind, and again, you have a problem in America, 431 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: which is a people under fifty they are very anti intervention. 432 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: This may not be completely true, but from what I 433 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: see anecdotally, and what we're seeing is that people under 434 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: the edge of fifty really do not want to fund 435 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: foreign wars because we've had so many disasters. Yes, what 436 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: I think Biden has done really well is he's sort 437 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 1: of giving Ukraine all of our old toys and making 438 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: new ones. The problem is now that this war has 439 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: become so hyperpartisan and you don't have Republicans who are 440 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: willing to get on board with it, it gets harder 441 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: and harder to get them the money that they need, 442 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: and so they are going to ultimately, I mean, hopefully 443 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: they get backstopped by Europe for a certain amount of time, 444 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: but you could see a world where their choice has 445 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: become more and more limited. It's not up to America 446 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: to do anything. But if they can't get the cash 447 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: from America, they have a problem. 448 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 4: Well, I think the response to that is to say, 449 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 4: let's get them the cash. I mean, I think it's 450 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: still very possible. I guess I just don't share your pessimism, 451 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 4: and I think it's up to us on the left 452 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 4: help Ukrainians make the case for why America should stand 453 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 4: in solidarity with them, especially folks on the left. I 454 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 4: was old enough to march against the Iraq War, you know. 455 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 4: I mean I was living in New York City at 456 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 4: the time, and I remember that we filled up the 457 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 4: entirety of the East Side. We've blocked traffic on multiple 458 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 4: avenues to protest that criminal intervention. And I think it 459 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 4: was one of the most stupid foreign policy decisions in 460 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: I don't know a recent history, but I don't think 461 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 4: that we should let the shadow of that past mistake 462 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 4: cloud our judgment. Now. 463 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I also marched against Iraq War, and 464 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: I was part of that, and I was actually pregnant. 465 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: I agree that the Iraq War was just awful, and 466 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: I agree, but ultimately, I think the problem in Afghanistan 467 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 1: was a disaster of Vietnam. I mean basically all the 468 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: wars in America has gotten into since World War Two. 469 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, you could argue we don't have a great 470 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: track record of nation building. And ultimately, my problem, like 471 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: fundamentally in a theoretical sense, is that like the endgame 472 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: is you're going to remove Putin and then you're going 473 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: to nation build in Russia. I mean that seems like 474 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: a disaster. 475 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. 476 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 4: No, I mean I don't think that's the game at all. 477 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 4: I mean I also don't think that the US is 478 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 4: going to be nation building in Ukraine. No, I don't either, 479 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 4: at least if we think of nation building in the 480 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 4: way that George Bush used it in a completely ridiculous 481 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 4: sense in Iraq. Right. So the point being that the 482 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 4: European Union has stepped up to the table and said, 483 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 4: we're going to be helping Ukraine build a nation. Yeah, 484 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: they're taking the lead on that. That's what it means 485 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 4: when they have open formal accession negotiations, you know. I mean, 486 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: if you want to reinterpret that term, it's kind of 487 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 4: a technical term. But what they're saying is, all right, 488 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 4: let's work together to build an open and free, multi religious, 489 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: multi ethnic, multi racial society. 490 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: Right, which is great. It's just not necessarily going to happen. 491 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 3: Right. 492 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 4: Well, nothing is ever guaranteed. I mean, we're talking geopolitics, right, 493 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 4: we have to be realistic. But I think that the 494 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 4: fact that we're doing this with partners with NATO, with 495 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 4: the EU, we're not footing the bill entirely by ourselves. 496 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 4: This is not a George W. Bush type Hail Mary 497 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 4: attempt at taking over the world and buying oil for 498 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 4: the US. 499 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean, not to be annoying, but with the first Golfer, 500 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: America had tons, they had a whole consortium of countries. 501 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's hard to make the case 502 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: for Ukraine when we're not in them per se. But 503 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: there are two different wars now raging, right. 504 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 4: You know, I am in no way qualified to try 505 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 4: to draw lines of connection between what's going on in 506 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 4: the Middle East and what's going on in Ukraine. 507 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: No, but I mean it's more just exhausting resources and 508 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: also like psychologically exhausting for the American voter. 509 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 4: You know. And honestly, I don't think it's actually exhausting 510 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 4: America's financial resources. I mean, in relative terms, I'm sure 511 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 4: that we spent a lot more in Afghanistan and Iraq. 512 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: But there was appetite for it then. 513 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: Right, it's the psychological appetite for it. 514 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 4: And I think thatism on the left is a really 515 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 4: really dangerous thing right now, you know. I mean I 516 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 4: think that you know, we need to find reasons on 517 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: the left to support Ukraine, and I think creating an 518 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 4: open society is a major major reason with partners like 519 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 4: the EU and NATO, helping Ukraine build an open society 520 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 4: is really crucial and I think that's a reason that 521 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 4: the Left can get on board to support aid for Ukraine. 522 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: Marcos Stowe, thank you so much for joining us. 523 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 4: Thank you, Molly, Molly. These conversations are always some of 524 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 4: the most fun that I have. 525 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 526 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds 527 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 528 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 529 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.