1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: They said, Stuart, we've got it narrowed down. We've gone 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: through about six hundred other young man, we've narrowed it 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: down to four. When you're one of those four, I said, oh, 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: well cool. On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: we're on part two of our look into the cultural 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: impact of the book Where the Red Fern Grows by 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: Wilson Rawls. He drove the bus to the game where 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: the coon Hunters showed pop culture what was up and 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: made us all proud. We'll talk with the childhood actor 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: Stuart Peterson, who starred in the original nineteen seventy four 11 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: Walt Disney movie and learned how he got into acting 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: and why he got out. His reason might surprise and 13 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: challenge you, and he'll tell us if that mountain lion 14 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: fighting the dog in the movie was real. Well again, 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: talk with Redbone coonhound man Ronnie Smith, and we'll have 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: a discussion with Dr Sean Teuton about the key emphasis 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: of the book, which is that period of life when 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: an adolescent boy becomes a man, and we'll talk about 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: crying boys. If you haven't watched the original movie or 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: read the book, you ought to check it out. But 21 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: regardless you're not gonna want to miss this one. And 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: the irony is that his lack of education actually makes 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: him a bed a person. He can get his education 24 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: from the woods itself. It's mythologized in the life of 25 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: Abraham Lincoln. This is what Teddy Roosevelt thought. That's why 26 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 1: he went west and reinvented himself. He really wanted to 27 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: reinvigorate his masculinity in the practice of frontier life. And 28 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:50,559 Speaker 1: that is really an American thing, it is. My name 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: is Clay Nukelem, and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of 32 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented 33 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: by f HF gear, American made, purpose built hunting and 34 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: places we explore. It makes me mad. Folks like that 36 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: getting such a fine hound who as I'm alive, it'll 37 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: wind up being as mean as they are. Billy and 38 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: his grandfather are watching the Pritchard brothers ride away with 39 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: a hound pup, so I would like to buy it 40 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: for you. Billy, I ain't much better off than your part. 41 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: You'll have your own hands before long. I don't know, Grandpa. 42 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: Sometimes I think God don't want me to have any Yeah, 43 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: so what well, I've been asking him for dogs as 44 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: long as I can remember. Nothing's happened yet. It could 45 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: be that you ain't doing your fair share. What do 46 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: you mean, Well, if God was in mind to get 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: you dogs slick as cutting line, and he'd be doing 48 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: all the work, that wouldn't be good for your character. 49 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: I don't want character. I want dogs. You want dogs 50 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: bad enough, Billy, You're gonna get dogs, But you want 51 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: his health. You're gonna have to meet him halfway. In 52 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: part one of the series, we introduced the American literary 53 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: classic Where the Red Fern Grows, and we celebrated how 54 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: the obscure pastime of raccoon hunting with hounds did a 55 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: three sixty slam dunck on mainstream culture. It's a wild 56 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: case study because the book has sold over six million 57 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: copies and has been mandatory reading in elementary schools from 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Seattle to Miami since the nineteen sixties. The book was 59 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: also made into two major motion pictures, and we already 60 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: met the childhood actor Stewart Peterson, who played Billy Coleman 61 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: in the original movie. We learned a ton about Woodrow 62 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: Wilson Rawls, the author, and how he wrote the original 63 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: manuscripts on brown paper bags, and late in his life 64 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: he finally got the book published. He only wrote two books, 65 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: and both of them were after he served multiple prison 66 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: terms in two states. Our interest in his criminal life 67 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: wasn't to point fingers, but rather to paint on the 68 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: canvas of redemption as we looked into the life of 69 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: an ex convict that became a beloved children's author and speaker. 70 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: Fist bump to Wilson Rawls. American literary classics are heavy hitters. 71 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: They go deep and you can't cover it all in 72 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: a short time. I want to continue digging into the 73 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: book with literary expert Professor Shaun Tuton of the University 74 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: of Arkansas. He's about to give us insight into by 75 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: such an obscure place and lifestyle could have such general 76 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: appeal and will learn something about novels. I've read that well. 77 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: It was in the preface of this book Claire Vanderpool, 78 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: and she spoke of that Wilson Rawls clearly established a 79 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: deep sense of place. Why is place so significant if 80 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: you've never been there, Because most people that read this 81 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: book have never lived in the Ozarks. Why do we 82 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: why do we like that? Well? This goes back actually 83 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: actually the history of the novel itself and the rise 84 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: of the novels were written as early, I mean in 85 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: our European tradition as early sixteen o five with with 86 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: Servants wrote Doute. Robinson Cruso right by Daniel Dafoe was 87 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: written in seventeen nineteen. Both of those novels. You think 88 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: about that, what what drew? What draws readers? And the 89 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: why are they time? This classic? Still today we make 90 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: movies about Robinson Cruso. It's the difference, right, It's the 91 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: unusual life being offered to us. And we learned as 92 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: we as we encounter something utterly beyond our world. And 93 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: that's the reason why we call it the novel itself. 94 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: It means something that's new. Right. So this the novel 95 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: emerged during the These were the first novels that humans 96 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: ever wrote. Some say their earlier novels in China, but 97 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: in Europe this is some of the first novels during 98 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution in England, when people had the division 99 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: of labor grow where they wouldn't really know about the 100 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: other lives people had. You wouldn't work in the same 101 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: place anymore, and it alienated labor. And people were dying 102 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: to know how other people live, right, And so they 103 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: saw the novel take off in that moment because people 104 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: would finally get a window into the daily life of 105 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: someone living completely different. Yes, so the whole point of 106 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: why place is so significant is if you've never been there. 107 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: That is the point is that you've never been there, 108 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: And so if you can really dive in and see 109 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: the rootedness of this human in that place, that's the 110 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: beauty of it. See that that wouldn't have been intuitive 111 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: to me. If you think about the introduction of the 112 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: novel was probably as powerful a moment for humanity as 113 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: the introduction of the Internet, maybe even more powerful. The 114 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: idea that made up stories written as words on a 115 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: page that could be read anywhere and could create an 116 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: out of body experience for the reader who had been 117 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: trapped in their own mind and world their whole life 118 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: was a wild concept. They didn't have television's, radio, or 119 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: video games. Imagine a world with no fiction books. I 120 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: don't think I've realized how much identity and instruction we 121 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: get from novels that have impacted our culture. Even if 122 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: you're not a reader, your life has been influenced by 123 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: fiction writing and Professor Teuton's book called Native American Literature, 124 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: he said this, in reading, we enter a world where 125 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: actual people or characters relate experiences, perhaps extremely different from 126 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: our own. Through that process, we may come to understand 127 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: or even are some views or values of another. In 128 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: literature is the power to transform end of quote, Professor Tuton. 129 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: Part of the book that Wilson Rawls I think did 130 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: such a great job of showing just a window into 131 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: Billy Coleman's life was when he went to Talaqua. He 132 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: traveled thirty something miles upriver from where he lived, and 133 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: he went to the big city of Tallaquah, Oklahoma, which 134 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: is a real city, and it is not a big 135 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: city at all. It says that there are eight hundred 136 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: people in the city of Talaqua, which to him was 137 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: this massive place, and there's a series of things that 138 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: happened that It's just such a powerful literary mechanism because 139 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: by showing us the city and Billy's response to it, 140 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: we see his world and One of the things that 141 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: happens is he walks in front of down an old 142 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: downtown street where there was shops and stores and big 143 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: glass windows, and he's dops in front of a window 144 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: and he sees for the first time the full reflection 145 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: of himself in a window, and he just kind of 146 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 1: becomes a little bit self conscious about that. I mean, 147 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 1: where did Wilson Rawles come up with this? I mean 148 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: that is such a powerful moment there, because you just think, 149 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: holy cow, these people were so poor they didn't have 150 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: even have a mirror in their home. It's also humorous, yeah, 151 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a genius passage, you know, excellent, right, 152 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: because the way that works as a piece of irony 153 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: and literary theory, that'd be irony. What happens is we 154 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 1: are drawn into into Billy's world so seamlessly, they were 155 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: not really unaware of it. We get a little description 156 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: of him, but it's a literary device to put something 157 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: in front of a mirror, and you're not gonna have 158 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: a mirror, you know, in the frontier kind of home 159 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: like that. When he finally sees himself, we're kind of 160 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: jarred by this, you know, and specially the ladies who 161 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: were on the sidewalk. We see that he's wild, right 162 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: because again, like I was talking about wilderness in the 163 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: notion of being uncivilized, you know, in a good way, right, 164 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: you're also innocent and you're uncontaminated by society or right. 165 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: And then becomes clear when when he walks along very 166 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: politely and runs into the kids from the school. That 167 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: school is a two story schoolhouse. It's got a fire 168 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: escape that they're playing down going down the tube, so 169 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: it's a it's a big school. And they're not nice 170 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: to him, and and he doesn't care. He shrugs it off. 171 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: You know what, what do they what slang derogatory term 172 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: did they use when they see him? They called him 173 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: a hillbilly? Oh, cut through the heart. They called him 174 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: a hillbilly. You know what's interesting to me about that 175 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: is that these were these were kids from Taliquol who 176 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: were rural kids by every estimation anywhere in the world. Yes, 177 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: these quote city kids from Taliquo would have been viewed 178 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: by anybody outside of this region as hillbillies themselves. They 179 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: were familiar with that term, and in a derogatory way, obviously, 180 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: because the way they used it and then they see 181 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: a real hillbilly in their mind and they're like, you hillbilly, 182 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: And I love that term. I to me, it's a 183 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: term of an dearmant now, but it urped Billy Man. Hey, 184 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: he's got to check it down. Dog business, down these 185 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: dogs along to a rich manor and he's holding for dogs. 186 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: This is the classic scene where Billy Coleman fights the 187 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: city kids. Mine let me buy. Hey, this guy's trying 188 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: to escape. Don't do that again. You want to fight? 189 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: Uh no, don't touch my dogs again. So in the 190 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: movie they didn't use the word hill billy, but Wilson 191 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: Rawls did in the book. I would have probably been 192 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: offended if Walt Disney had said it. At some point. 193 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to dive into the deeper meaning of the term, 194 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: because it's different than some of the other descriptors used 195 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: to define rural people. But in my book, it's got 196 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: a touch of nobility. And it sure was a fast 197 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: way to take off Billy Coleman, which was not something 198 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: you wanted to do. I had some advice that I 199 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: would have given to Wilson Rawls, but let's see what 200 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: Dr Teuton thinks and we'll cut right to the heart 201 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: of what this book is about a boy becoming a man. 202 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: As I read this book and looking at it from 203 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: a literary perspective, I'm amazed at the amount of stuff 204 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: that's going on that's really intriguing, From the dogs fighting 205 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 1: with the city kids, to the Pritchard's to win the 206 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: championship coon hunt, to the dogs dying and a red 207 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: fern popping up at the end. I mean, it's just 208 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: like it just stacked with these little subplots. If you 209 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: would have told me that, I would have advised Wilson Rawls, well, buddy, 210 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: you might be getting a little too complex. This is 211 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: just weaving people like in and out of so many 212 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: ups and downs. You know, you may be you may 213 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: want to simplify this a little bit. How did he 214 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: pull that off? Or is there and obviously it's that 215 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: would have been terrible advice. Is it common to have 216 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: that many ups and downs that we even to a 217 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: to a story. You can map a novel, you know, 218 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: and scholars have done this, and a good writer you 219 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 1: can get books on how to write a novel and 220 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: they'll tell you how to map it out. Often, if 221 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: you read a novel and you put it down, it 222 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: doesn't keep your interest. It's because they didn't honor that 223 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: the continuum in the novel. Novel has to have a 224 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: crisis action and a falling action. That means you have 225 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: to have conflict, and usually that conflict occurs somewhere in 226 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: the middle, and then you have maybe one more minor 227 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: conflict and then everything is resolved. And then the other 228 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: point is that characters have to can be flat. Around. 229 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: If they're flat, it means they're just um. There's people 230 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: walk in and out like the sheriff and can never 231 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: see again. But around character is a character that has 232 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: to grow, so by the other novel they're changed, there's 233 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: something different about them. At any rate. When you map 234 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,199 Speaker 1: this novel, it fits perfectly to that crisis action you 235 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: got certainly you got you got the Pritchard's, you know, 236 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: the terrible death. Then you have the competition, and then 237 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: of course you have the cougar. But the way that 238 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: the novel ens in a beautiful resolution, if you will, 239 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: is is the dog's buried on the hillside. Is that 240 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: kind of what makes it what it is? That the 241 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: resolution at the end that it's like a bitter pill 242 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: to swallow, but also really redemptive. Yeah. Yeah, And his 243 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: father even tells him right here at the end it's 244 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: it's not He's Papa tried, Billy. He said, I wouldn't 245 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: think too much about this if I were you. It's 246 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: not good to hurt like that, I believe. I just 247 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: try to forget it. Besides, you still have little aunt. 248 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: That's of guys. From a man to another incipient man. 249 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: You know he's gonna become a man soon. This novel 250 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: is so full of tears. I mean, Billy cries at 251 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: anymore all the time. I thought that was a little unusual. 252 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: I did. I thought so too. But as a as 253 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: a writer, I think Wilson Rawls is trying to make 254 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: it clear there's a contrast, you know, between what a man, 255 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: how a man experiences emotions and deals with loss, from 256 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: how a boy experience emotion deals with lost. When his 257 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: father says it's this is not good for you. You You 258 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't do that, it's kind of a bitter, like you say, 259 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: bitter sweet, right. His father is saying, like my father 260 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: would tell me, you can't cry like that. So that 261 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: that's another aspect of this novel. It's very uh, Like 262 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: I said, I found a little. I have to say, 263 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: if there's a critique in the novel, meanbe a little overdone. 264 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: The crying. Yeah, I had the exact same thing. I thought, again, 265 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: he's crying again, man, Yeah, he was crying at stuff 266 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have thought a kid would cry at. 267 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: But I I cried my fair share as a kid. 268 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: But I don't think I would have been known as 269 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: like a crier. But I didn't know some people that 270 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: were quote criers. I look back at a period in 271 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: a boy's life when he would be a few steps 272 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: away from tears at any moment, and that's pretty. That 273 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: is a really vulnerable, beautiful, unique period of a man. 274 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: You know what will become a man of a man's life. 275 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: And that's kind of the whole point of this book. 276 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: I think Wilson Rawls was just like trying to pound 277 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: at home. This is a boy. He acts like a man, 278 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: he does things that a man would do, But this 279 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: is a boy. As a father, it's painful to watch, 280 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: you know. And I remember my father telling me, and 281 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: he was kind of rough about it. He'd say something 282 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: to lip in you, you can't cry. I'm a little 283 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: more gentle with my kid. My son's and yet I'll 284 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: tell them then you know, there's there's other ways to 285 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: handle this, you know, because sometimes they'll cry out of frustration. 286 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: I said, you gotta take deep breaths and we'll make 287 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: a plan. We're gonna fix it, you know. And I 288 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: try to be practical with them. But I think about 289 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: the same thing about how dad's handle boys crying, because yeah, 290 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: it evokes something in us of like, boy, you better 291 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: stop that, because that's not what a man does and 292 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: what we're in this mentality and movement of bringing them 293 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: to manhood. But yeah, it kind of made me wonder 294 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: if I was too hard on my boys, because you 295 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: know they're going to grow out of it, But in 296 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: the moment, you're like, man, what if this guy's years 297 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: old and still crying, and so you feel like you 298 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: gotta do something. You know, you better suck about kid. 299 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: But then you see, uh, Billy's dad probably manage him 300 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: the way you would hope to be managed. But I 301 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: bet a real ozark dad probably would have been a 302 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: little rougher on him. Yeah, his mom is one's getting 303 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: the whippings though too. Yeah she gets a switch and 304 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: she's she's whipped him before It's always a question in 305 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: fatherhood whether your son changes it gets be on a 306 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: difficult point his life and you think, was it because 307 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: I said stopped crying or did you just grow out 308 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: of it? Yeah? Exactly, because if you didn't say it, 309 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: maybe crying his whole life. So you know, you don't 310 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: have to be a perfect father. You just got to 311 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: be a present father. I think, yeah, that's the important partner. 312 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 1: And I never would have known that novel will be 313 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: about fatherhood. But I'm also thinking about the father. You know, 314 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: I have a feeling these good, incredible works of the 315 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: literature find us where we're at. Good writers find us 316 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: where we're at, and that's exactly what old Wilson Rawls did. 317 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: But why do a bunch of coon hunters like us 318 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: care about literary mechanisms. If I am irrationally moved by 319 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: something to the point of an impact in my life, 320 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: I want to understand why a fundamental and constant in 321 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: our lives is media. And by media I mean books, television, 322 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:54,199 Speaker 1: social media, podcasts, basically any type of human communication that 323 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: isn't human to human. And don't say I don't take 324 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: in media clay, because your and to a podcast, right now. 325 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: Our lives are full of media different forms, and it 326 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: uses natural forms of human communication to draw us into 327 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: being interested in something for better or worse. News agencies 328 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: often use hype and hysteria to get people fired up. 329 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: Podcasters use long form conversation to make us feel like 330 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: we're in the room. Television uses radical and often underalistic 331 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: circumstances to draw us into a captivating stupor. Sports engages 332 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: with our love of competition and delivers a magnetic pool 333 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: towards tribalism. The point is this, there are great powers 334 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: at work, and if we are aware of ourselves and 335 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: those powers, we can choose where to spend the energy 336 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: of our life. I'm very interested in things that control 337 00:18:53,200 --> 00:19:00,239 Speaker 1: us beyond our recognition. Personal awareness and responsibility is powerful us. 338 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 1: Back to the central idea of this novel, which we've 339 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: declared is a boy becoming a man. I think this 340 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: issue of bringing boys in the manhood is extremely relevant, 341 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: as it seems manhood in our culture is up for 342 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: grabs on its definition of all people. To speak on 343 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: the subject, I'd like to introduce my wife, Misty Newcomb. 344 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: You would have heard her on the render. She's an educator. 345 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: She runs a private school. She's a mother of boys, 346 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: and she has some insight into the development of young boys, 347 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: which is the theme of our book. So I run. 348 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: I run a private school, a K twelveth private school 349 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: at the seventh twelfth grade level. We have a student 350 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: population that male. We found that parents were bringing their 351 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: young boys to us because of concerns about how modern 352 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: Western culture treats young boys. And there was concerns about 353 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: how they're being brought up to kind of loathe certain 354 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: aspects of their just natural identity. And these young boys 355 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: have a very unique biological developmental trajectory and a lot 356 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: of what we consider bad, not well behaved, not good 357 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: is actually really normal. So they're they're actually even been 358 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: studies where and just so that you understand a little 359 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: bit about academics, test scores, standardized test scores are not 360 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: subjective at all. They that's the idea behind having a 361 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: standardized test is that there's no human opinion. Grades at 362 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: school are very subjective, and so a teacher's opinion matters 363 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: on how they respond to essays, how they respond to 364 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: participation points, and things like that. Studies have shown that 365 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: even though boys and girls they've they've looked at a 366 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: group of boys and girls, and they don't have any 367 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: difference on their standardized test scores, but the grades that 368 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: teachers give them are different based off of whether they're 369 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: a boy or girl. And I don't think teachers are 370 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: sitting back there saying, you know, I don't like boys, 371 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna mark them off. I think that there's behaves 372 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 1: that boys naturally have that are less desirable in a 373 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: traditional classroom. And that's a problem, like that's that's a 374 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: problem because it's communicating that these characteristics are bad. What 375 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: you see inside of the red Fern grows, for example, 376 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: you see Billy just kind of running wild, working with 377 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: his hands and having to think through complex situations with 378 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: these these k dogs. And you know, there's not really 379 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: a lot of experiences or environments that young boys have 380 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: to develop those types of skills in modern society. So 381 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: Billy's development, now he lacked on the academic side, we 382 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: do know that. But but this idea of letting a 383 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: boy be a boy, yeah, is a good thing. And 384 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: now that I think we could get confused and we're 385 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,199 Speaker 1: not saying let a kid be rebellious and not do 386 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: what you say. No, no, Billy didn't do that. But 387 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 1: we're not saying tell all the little guys to sit still, 388 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: put their papers, never run around, never move rocks, never 389 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: chase the cat. Never. Instincts are always something to be suppressed. 390 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: Sometimes they should be suppressed. Really, there's a lot like 391 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: if you think about just the wildness of Billy's life 392 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: and of his experience, that is extremely valuable. It's not 393 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: the only thing that's valuable. It's not the only thing 394 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: that should be emphasized. But there's an aspect of of 395 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: his upbringing that you, as a young man look at 396 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: and say, man, I'm glad I had parts of that, 397 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: or I wish I had that, And you want it 398 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: for your sons. You probably want it for your daughters 399 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: to hey, hey, let me say one more thing. I 400 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: will say that we had two girls and then two boys, 401 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: and everyone I ran into always told me, oh, your 402 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: middle school years are going to be so hard with 403 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: those girls. They're gonna cry, They're gonna be so emotional. 404 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: No one, no one told me about middle school boys. 405 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: And I remember being an absolute shock, more emotional than 406 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: any girl guys I think he was. I mean, I'm 407 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: just saying it is it will shock you how much 408 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: boys cry. I don't think I don't think he was 409 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: overplaying his hand at all. I think that he was 410 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: tapping into he was he had to have been a crier. 411 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: The conversation right now about the definition of manhood is 412 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: very interesting. There's got to be an accurate definition of masculinity, 413 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: and when it's right, it's healthy and productive in the 414 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: life of the young man and everyone around him. Kind 415 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: of like Billy Coleman. He respected his mother and father, 416 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: he respected and took care of his little sisters. He 417 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: worked hard, he told the truth, he admitted fault, he 418 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: took responsibility. Pop culture has declared manhood as dangerous, incompetent, 419 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: and self focused, which I take offense at. But I 420 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: think that many know that true manhood is defined by 421 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: sacrifice and service to our family. It's about leading by 422 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: example and living a governed life, a life guided by 423 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: principles outside of our self interest. Seems like it would 424 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: be difficult for anyone to find fault with this. That's 425 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: some good stuff, all right. If we were on a 426 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: coon hunt, the dogs just struck a track in an 427 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: unexpected direction, and we're gonna head toward him. On the 428 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: last episode, we met Stewart Peterson, the childhood actor who 429 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: played Billy Coleman. We've already heard his voice on this episode. Ironically, 430 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: Mr Stewart has been on the show Meat Eater and 431 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: you can watch him on Netflix season nine when he 432 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: guided Steve Ronella Janice would tell us and Adam Weatherby 433 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: on a mule deer hunt and Wyoming. That was him. 434 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: The episode is titled Wyoming Mule Deer. His story is 435 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: a winding road and I want to try to connect 436 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: the dots from Hollywood actor to backcountry guide. So, Mr 437 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: Stewart Peterson, you have no idea how neat it is 438 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: for me to see you, and how kind of shocking 439 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: it was a years ago when I learned that this 440 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 1: boy in this movie. It was real impacting to me 441 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: guided my friend Steve Ronnella in Wyoming for mule Deer 442 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: and then to be here in Wyoming with you now 443 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: it's pretty neat. So my my main question I want 444 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: to start off with is how did you get into 445 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: acting as a child? How did that start? Um, Well, 446 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: it all really started with my mother's brother who was 447 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: in the motion picture production business. At some point he 448 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: had had the idea that he wanted to do a 449 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: film based on the book Where the Red Fern Grows. 450 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: And when he finally got the rights to do that, 451 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: at that point in time, he was had begun kind 452 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: of feeling out what, you know, how he was gonna 453 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 1: cast and who who he might cast. So he was 454 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: the was he He was the producer, the producer of 455 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: the show. Now where did he live? He lived in 456 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: California at the time. Of course, growing up here, all 457 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: I knew was ranching, so the film industry and even 458 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: and he asked spirations for that, never ever and still 459 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: don't enter my mind. But when he got ready to 460 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: do the film, he had had a script put together 461 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: and had taken it up to Wilson Rawls, the author 462 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: of the book, who lived in Idaho Falls, And on 463 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: his way up he had kind of put out to 464 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: somebody here in coke Field might have been a fourth 465 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: grade teacher, because she was the one that actually made 466 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: a reference to someone in Cokefield that she thought might 467 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: fit the part. Someone that wasn't you, wasn't me. On 468 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: my uncle's way back through on his way back to California, 469 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: he thought, well, I'll just stop in and see if 470 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: I can't meet this other young man as he came through. 471 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: I happened to be at my grandparents home and this 472 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: young man shows up to be introduced to my uncle, 473 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: who then took him into my grandpa's dan and and 474 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: proceeded to interview him. Slash let him read out of 475 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: the script to see what he was going to be like. Meanwhile, 476 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: I was just out messing around out there, you know, 477 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: in the living room, probably talking to grandfather. I don't know, barefoot, 478 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: wearing over I never went bear fit in this country. 479 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: This that was really a new one for me. But 480 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: in any case, when he got through with my uncle, uh, 481 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: this friend of mine, why my uncle came out and 482 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: he said, hey, Stewart, why don't you come in and 483 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,959 Speaker 1: read for me in the den? And I said, I'm okay. 484 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: He says, it's not a big deal. He said, just 485 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: come in and read a few He says, you know, 486 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: there's no pressure. I thought, okay. Well, so he brings 487 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: out a script and and he thumbed through some pages 488 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: and he said, well, here, why don't you just read 489 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: Billy Coleman's part here and read it as if you 490 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: were gonna you know, you're gonna say him to somebody, 491 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: and I did a little bit of that. And it 492 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: was kind of a half hearted attempt when I did 493 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: it initially because I wasn't really interested this. Just read this, 494 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: and so I did. There was never an aspiration that 495 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 1: was a burn to say, please, uncle lyman, why don't 496 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: you let me do this? I I just left it. 497 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: I just did. I walked away from it as if 498 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: it was just something that I had no interest, which 499 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: I didn't. After this initial imprompt to read through with 500 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: his uncle, Stuart's mother got a call a few weeks 501 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: later asking if he would fly to Los Angeles to 502 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: audition in front of the director, which he did. After 503 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 1: that trip, he got a third call and a few 504 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: weeks later they said, Stuart, we've got it narrowed down. 505 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: We've gone through about six hundred other young man, we've 506 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: narrowed it down to four. When you're one of those four. 507 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: And so I said, oh, well cool. But that's again 508 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: as far as my thought process went, I just didn't 509 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: have any inclination. Ended up uh. In the last phone call, 510 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: they said, we'd like to do one last set of 511 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: screen tests. We'd like you to come to Tulsa, Oklahoma. 512 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: We'll fly you there will be these other three young men, 513 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: uh down there. You know, gosh, little league, a little 514 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: league football was gonna be coming up in a few 515 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: short weeks. Was this like a high budget movie for 516 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four? You know, I thought it was high 517 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: budget because I've never heard of those kind of numbers. 518 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: But I think it was just under a million bucks. 519 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: But but it was a high quality product. It was 520 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: a hYP was like it was. It was like a 521 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: first rate movie for yeah, and and for the you know, 522 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 1: the people that the director, he was very well known. 523 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: He had directed a lot of Disney films. The impression 524 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: that I got as an adult, as I've gone back 525 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: and watched that movie, we just we gathered up the 526 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: whole family watched it just the other night. It was 527 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: really neat. The impression I got was that it was 528 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: actually a really well put together film for the time. 529 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: And I was trying to make a connection of I 530 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: think as I understood it, you know, based on the 531 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: casting of the other people that were fairly well known 532 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: and and the interests that they had, because as I 533 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: went to Tulsa, I did the screen test and there's 534 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: four four guys, so they had us all there and 535 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: there was something that kind of clicked in me that said, Okay, 536 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: I became very competitive from the standpoint I wanted to 537 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: win the part, and I could have cared less whether 538 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: I did the part. After that, understand, I started trying 539 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: to pay attention to what they were trying to do 540 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: to help coach me maybe how to express myself in 541 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: this scene or that. When it was all said and 542 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: done in my own was carefully. He knew that with 543 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: the production of financials that they put into it, he 544 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: needed to try to remove himself from from the decision 545 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: making process. He turned it over to the director and said, 546 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: you know you're you're gonna be the one working with 547 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: the the young man, so you need to make the decision. Uh. 548 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: When they came in and told me that I had 549 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: the part, I didn't know quite how to feel, other 550 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: than the fact that I was already now starting to 551 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: feel homesick because they told me they said. My uncle 552 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: came and said, well, Stewart, you've you've earned apart. We're 553 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: gonna start here probably next week, and so for the 554 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,239 Speaker 1: next week, I'd like you to start toughening your feet up, 555 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: So you need to start going of my questions was, 556 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: how did you get it. I didn't have tough feet, 557 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: because you know, and I tried, I truly tried. I 558 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: took my shoes off, I went and tried to walk 559 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: on the rocks, and I just never went barefoot around here. 560 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: We we just didn't. But there was somebody that worked, 561 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, that was a little more creative thought out 562 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: of the box. They said, hey, why don't we just 563 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: put some duct tape on the bottom of his feet, 564 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: And so if I had to run in the stubble, 565 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: if I had to run on the on the gravel, 566 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: they would just get the duct tape and they'd go 567 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: over there and they just slam it layered on the bottom. 568 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: But anywhere in the movie where you can see that, 569 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think it was all so quick, 570 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: you know, with the stride that was my introduction, and 571 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking I wanted to be home so bad. 572 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: I I really didn't want to be out there doing 573 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: the field, you know. And of course Mom and dad. 574 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: Dad was in the middle of the in this in 575 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: the hay, and and Mom had five other kids at 576 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: home that she was busy with. So she just basically 577 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: assumed that uncle, my uncle Lyman was gonna be and 578 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: he did. He took he washed over me. But I 579 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: thought it was for me. It was it was kind 580 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: of a chance to be independent. That was my first 581 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: experience ever. They gave me a per diem for the week, 582 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: and I remember my They brought a little binna envelope 583 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: to me and it had cash and it was like 584 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: eighty eight dollars for the week, and that's what I 585 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: was to use for my meals. And of course at 586 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: that age, I don't need to eat that much. That 587 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: was a lot of money for thirty. There was I say, 588 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: a real Billy Coleman story going on inside the set 589 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: of the Billy Coleman Story. Yeah, because I just wasn't 590 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: used to that. Being raised on the ranch, we never 591 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: saw that kind of Well, this is the responsibility of 592 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: a young man with money and stuff. So how long 593 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: a period? How long did it take to shoot? It 594 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: was two months filming time, Is that all? Yeah? It 595 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: was two months. Took two months to film and then 596 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: the production it came out in the spring with the premiere. 597 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: Where was the movie actually shot. The movie was actually 598 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: filmed in Tallquah, Oklahoma, within miles of the old Homestead 599 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: and the in the same places that Wilson Rawls roamed 600 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 1: as a young boy. It's interesting to get a behind 601 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: the scenes look at how all this went down and 602 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: will continue to see the parallels between Mr. Stewart's real 603 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: life and Billy Coleman. In the last episode, we talked 604 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: about some redbone coon hounds, which played a significant part 605 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: in the book and movie. We're Coon Hunters, so this 606 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: kind of stuff is interesting. Here's what Mr You had 607 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: to say about the actual hounds in the movie. And 608 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: how about that dang mountain lion scene. Man, I need 609 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: some answers. We had for that film because of the 610 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: age groups. There were thirteen dogs, you know, because they 611 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: had the pups and then they had the half groans, 612 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: and then they had the adults dogs different thirteen different 613 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: dogs because you considered the two month period of time 614 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: that we filmed. You see him as pups, and then 615 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: you see him as a half groans, and then you 616 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: see him as as adults. But they also they had 617 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: some when they were doing the scene where the mountain 618 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,479 Speaker 1: lion where he's you know, coming back with the dogs 619 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: for the first time. He's nestled down for the night 620 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: there and that mountain lion comes in. When they had 621 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: those dogs, those older dogs going again, they had they 622 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: had a tame when and they had a wild mountain lion, 623 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: and that the wild when they had a cable tied 624 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: to a caller on that cat. The cable you couldn't see. 625 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: I was able to watch those scenes at night as 626 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: they were filming it because it was at night, and 627 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: I was just constrolled by how those dogs would go 628 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: in there and you know, keep that cat at babe. 629 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: But they they had a few different dogs because there 630 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: were a few dogs that they send in and they 631 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: got smacked and they'd yiping off camera and they'd have 632 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: to send another one in. Wow. So so I wanted 633 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: to ask you about that because that wouldn't fly today, 634 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: you know, to have and when I watched it just 635 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: as an adult, and now that we see all this 636 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: uh animation and everything in Hollywood that has to do 637 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: with animals, a lot of it is fake and computer animated. 638 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: When I watched that last week, I was like, that 639 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: is for real. These are red bone hounds being a 640 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: real live mountain line. The winning of the Gold Cup 641 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: brought me and my dog even closer than before we 642 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: became an in separate Bouteau, and although I'd always known 643 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: their love for me was great, I never realized how 644 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: deep it win until the night of their greatest sacrifice. 645 00:34:53,760 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: As we hunted together in the psychone camera, I don't 646 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: see anything. Do you think the Hollywood world would frown 647 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: on a real mountain lion and the dog fighting today? Clearly, 648 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy four, this wasn't an issue. If we're 649 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: talking about historical revision, which is taking today's value system 650 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: and placing it in a different time. This brings up 651 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: some interesting questions about what has changed. But we're in 652 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: the weeds, boys, and we gotta get up out of here, 653 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: and we'll do it by talking to Mr Ronnie Smith. 654 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: He was the red Bone man from Arkansas we went 655 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: hunting with on the last episode, and his grandson bat 656 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: me fifty two dollars that there was a in a tree, 657 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: but it was a dentry complicated situation. Mr Ronnie has 658 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: some information on the real hounds used in the movie. 659 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: I've always wondered if those were just Hollywood dogs or 660 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: real coon dogs. So you have some intel on the 661 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: dogs that were in the movie. So there there are 662 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: two movies that were made what do you know about 663 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: those dogs that were in the mill at the time. 664 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,919 Speaker 1: I was a young fellow in the seventies, not seventy four, 665 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: you know. I graduated high school in seventy four. So 666 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: the movie came out and was no big deal really, 667 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: but we went we watched it. Of course, did you 668 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: watching the movie theater? Do you remember? Yeah? But being that, uh, 669 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: there's one in the town of Rogers if it's called 670 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: the Victory and it's open for plays now it's not 671 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: open for the movie pictures. But but the original dogs 672 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: and they were local dogs in Tallqua that the owner 673 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: of the male dog was Glyn Davis now and and 674 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: I didn't know Glenn personally, but I've been in this 675 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: Red Bone Association since night. So it's good good while, 676 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: you know. And he had the mail dog and he 677 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: called it dog rambling read. The dog that they called 678 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: Dan was rambling, just rambling read, that's all. And Glenn 679 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: got paid to use his dog. He got five hundred dollars. 680 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: They could have probably got the dog and some feet 681 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: along with that if they had one before. That's a landslide. 682 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: Five hundred bucks, you know, now, are you saying that's 683 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: a lot that was a lot of money in nineteen 684 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: seventy four. That was five was rambling read a good conduct. 685 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: The local fellas, and I've talked to a couple of 686 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: them recently since you and I spoke. One of the 687 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: fellas hunted with the dog quite regularly, said he was 688 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: sure enough a top and channel mystery solved. Quote sure 689 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: enough a top notch hound means a lot coming from 690 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 1: Mr Ronnie. Now that we've got the dog situation and 691 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: squared away, let's talk to Mr Stewart. I want to 692 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 1: know how he pulled off being such a great actor 693 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: with no experience or training. So had you, at age thirteen, 694 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: had you read the book? I had not. They encouraged 695 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 1: me too, but you know I was never an avid reader. 696 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: I I just assuon been outdoors. It's not like I 697 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: was again so interested in trying to become Billy Coleman 698 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: that I was living my own life of the outdoors, 699 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: so to speaking. You know, Mr Stewart, what's so unique 700 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: about that movie? And I I said this before I 701 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: knew you, I knew that I would ever know. It's 702 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: what a good actor you were. I mean that was 703 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: pretty because there's all you know, all of us have 704 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: watched movies where there's a kid actor and they're kind 705 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: of the the weak link of the thing. Then that movie, man, 706 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: you just carried it so well and we're such a 707 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: natural actor, Like, how were you able to pull that 708 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: off well? And see, in my mind when people I've 709 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: had people tell me that before, I'm still saying, are 710 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: you sure? Because I was telling Steve this the other day, 711 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: when Steve Ronnella had called me, I told him I said, 712 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: I really didn't know that I was acting. I think 713 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: I was maybe reliving a lot of what I who 714 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: I am. I honestly don't know, other than I believe 715 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: that a greater power, which I firmly believe in God, 716 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,439 Speaker 1: was how I was able to do what I did 717 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 1: annoyingly because it wasn't something I I thought about, Okay, 718 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 1: I need to do this this way or that way. 719 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: I did it the way I felt, And I guess 720 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: if that's that was you know, they say, well, that 721 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: was good acting. I'm thinking, well, I don't know if 722 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: it was good acting or just portraying what the emotion 723 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: of I felt at that time. Well, I think what 724 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 1: you just described as a good acting, I mean to 725 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: to be able to live a character because you're so 726 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: familiar with that character. I mean, it was just one 727 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: of those things that you didn't have to act like 728 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: a country kid. You were, and you the genuineness that 729 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: you came across inside of it, even inside kind of 730 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,320 Speaker 1: the moral issues inside the story. I see that today 731 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: inside of you sitting here talking to character matters to you, 732 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: and in that movie that was such a strong theme 733 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: of it. It really was if I had to do 734 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: a part that was different than that that maybe wasn't me. 735 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what I could do it. It's clear 736 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: to see that character mattered to the real Stewart Peterson 737 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: character also mattered to the fiction character. Billy Coleman character 738 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: mattered to the author Wilson Rawls, who created this story. 739 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: But what's ironic and redemptive is that in the last 740 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 1: episode we learned that Wilson Rawls served time in prison 741 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: in his younger days for what we can pretty much 742 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 1: say was a lack of character. And by the way, 743 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: Mr Wilson pleaded guilty to those charges, so it's unlikely 744 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: he was wrongfully accused. My intent in speaking with Mr 745 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: Stewart was just to get a look behind that period 746 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: of his life and to see how it affected him. 747 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: I asked him what it was going back home to Copeville, 748 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 1: Wyoming as a movie star. All through my the rest 749 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: of my junior high in my high school years, I 750 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: was very aware of the fact that my competitors, whether 751 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: it was football or wrestling, they knew who I was. 752 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: That was a little bit of a challenge for me, 753 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: because I've never forgotten the story of we had a 754 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: little tournament here in Cokeville, and wrestling tournament, and I 755 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: had the fellow who was in my weight had just 756 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: moved there, I guess from California. Was supposed to be 757 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: somewhat of a big deal. And when we got there, 758 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: he'd sent one of his little buddies over and said, hey, you, 759 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: so and so wants to want you to know that 760 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 1: you were going to be counting lights, which is a 761 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,879 Speaker 1: terminology used in wrestling. You're gonna be on your back, 762 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: you know. And I thought, wait a minute, I'm not 763 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: going to let that happen just because they think I'm 764 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 1: a movie star that I should be, you know, some 765 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: kind of a badge of honor. If they can beat me, 766 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: you're kind of a target. Then I became a little 767 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: bit of a target, and I kind of I wouldn't 768 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: have wanted to watch you if you're anything like Billy 769 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: Cullman from Well. I just I just didn't want that 770 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, I didn't I didn't want 771 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: them to think just because I was in the films 772 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: that they were gonna be I was gonna be easy pickings. 773 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 1: And it was just it was it was kind of 774 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: a poetic justice for me because I was extremely nervous, 775 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: but I was so excited when you know, when when 776 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: it all said and done, you know, he was the 777 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: one counting the lights instead of me, so I won. 778 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, I just thought, well, you know, that's uh, 779 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: that's what I dealt with him. I thought a lot 780 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: about that, and it just kind of felt like it 781 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: was a little bit of a ball and chain in 782 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: many ways, because I never wanted I never wanted to 783 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: to to be and receive the accolades because I've been 784 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: in a film I wanted. Accolades has come because of 785 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: my efforts, like in my wrestling and my football. That's 786 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: where I wanted. And the movie would have been widespread enough. 787 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,879 Speaker 1: I mean, the same was released stor you probably had 788 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: people recognizing you on the street. I mean, and and 789 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: even today as I get you, even losing my hair 790 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: a little bit. And you know this many years down 791 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: the road, really you still have people that recognize. Somebody 792 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: that might have recognized Mr. Stewart was Mr Ronnie. Ronnie 793 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,600 Speaker 1: was in the target audience for the nineteen seventy four 794 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: release of this film. However, you might be surprised by 795 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 1: his response to it. What year were you born? Okay, 796 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: So Wilson Rawls wrote the book Where the Red Fern 797 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: Grows in nineteen sixty one? Would you have read that 798 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: book as a kid. I have read the book. I 799 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,919 Speaker 1: might have been, but now I'm an avid reader. Most 800 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: folks that was up that I knew never read books 801 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: in their life, that didn't go to school very much. 802 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,439 Speaker 1: To be honest with you, but I've read a little 803 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: bit of everything. But I would have read it. I 804 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: don't know that that book was readily available to me. 805 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 1: I mean, your dad was you had red bone hounds 806 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,759 Speaker 1: at that time. Did you think much about it or 807 00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: just it was it just normal? It wasn't kind of 808 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: like m well, you know what I mean. It was 809 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,280 Speaker 1: just like an everyday kid would have done. Here, Okay, 810 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: so the book it was like life to us. You know, 811 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,719 Speaker 1: really we literally made money picking up soda bottles, you know, 812 00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,120 Speaker 1: for five cents deposits, you know, I mean we really 813 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: did to buy hound puppy was you know, it's just 814 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 1: we're just like the deal, you know, we do that. 815 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:25,280 Speaker 1: That's what we do. You know, getting to the train 816 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,239 Speaker 1: station you would have been a big deal for us, 817 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: more so than buying the puppies. You know, any any 818 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: book you read, if you're a good reader, you and 819 00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: you've had a good author, then you're you become part 820 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,600 Speaker 1: of that book in my mind. You know, I read 821 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: a Western novel literally almost every night, one complete novel 822 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: before I go to bed, uh, you know, Louis Lamore 823 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: and Zane Gray. And I've been that kind of reader. 824 00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I've read The Red Fern Grows, you know, 825 00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: I read the book, you know, probably a couple of times. 826 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: But it wasn't that big a deal because it was 827 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: life in the Hills and truthfully was which that's not 828 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: far from here, talk, it's not very far. How far 829 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,479 Speaker 1: as a crow flies away from Taloqua. I mean, yeah, 830 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: it's it's an hour and hour in minutes driving. It 831 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: was interesting for me to hear the impact of a 832 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,720 Speaker 1: movie on a person who was almost play by play 833 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: living out a version of Billy Coleman's life. The literary 834 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: mechanism of connecting a far away place and a foreign 835 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 1: lifestyle didn't hook Mr Ronnie. The truth of it is 836 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: this living in some version of hard times in the Ozarks. 837 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: Wasn't that romantic of a life. It was just life. 838 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 1: If you listen, this next section is the most impacting 839 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: of my interview with Mr Stewart. I asked him if 840 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: he did any more movies, and his answer surprised me. 841 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: So after the movie, did you do any more movies? 842 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: I did? My uncle, who was into family valued movies, 843 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: he we did about three or four more. So how 844 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: long did your acting career span in terms of years? 845 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: You know? It tell about nineteen and then and then, uh, 846 00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,720 Speaker 1: I had opportunity and have had a few other little 847 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: I guess check backs with me and I just haven't 848 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,839 Speaker 1: ever been compelled again to want to say yeah really so, 849 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,879 Speaker 1: so when something like that, like you've kind of got 850 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: a fuel it by just like going and trying out 851 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 1: for parts and taking the chance of flying somewhere for 852 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,399 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I guess somebody in movies like 853 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 1: stuff just comes to him, but that's not That's how 854 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: everything for me, it all came to me. It was 855 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: never an aspiration or my saying I'm I want to 856 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: do it. I'm an aggressively approach it. When I got 857 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,360 Speaker 1: through with Pony Express, writer and I did I mention 858 00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: that one anyway, there was one called Pony Express, right, 859 00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 1: I think that was one of the last ones I did. 860 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 1: The director of that at he later did a film 861 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: called The Sackets. It's a Western, and he wanted me 862 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,360 Speaker 1: to play one of the Sack brothers. And as I 863 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: read the script, there were just some things that we're 864 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: kind of went against the grain of my values and 865 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,319 Speaker 1: that I told him. I said, I just really don't 866 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,480 Speaker 1: think this is a part from me as as for 867 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,399 Speaker 1: my person. And I've always felt that way that if 868 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: you act and you are into the part, you're gonna 869 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,439 Speaker 1: feel a lot of the same things that you would 870 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: in real life. And uh, in the case of this one, 871 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 1: this The Sackets, you know, there were some things where 872 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: they'd been out on the range for a while and 873 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: then they came into town and it was party time, 874 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: and you know, with the women and the alcohol, and 875 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: I just said, that's just not me. I can't portray that, 876 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: even though it's acting. I can't do that and didn't 877 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: want that to carry over in any way, shape or form. 878 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: And as a result, you know, once I got married, 879 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,920 Speaker 1: I understood exactly why I didn't want to do that, 880 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to have to feel anything that 881 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,800 Speaker 1: would be contrary to what it should be, and that's 882 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: fidelity and commitment to my wife. The mind and body 883 00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: don't know the difference when you're faking it and when 884 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: it's real. So was that was that a factor in 885 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: closing down it was? I love it, man. It's bizarre 886 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,760 Speaker 1: to me how media portrays human life. They often prey 887 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: upon our extremes and in turn promote the normalization of 888 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,320 Speaker 1: those extremes. I think as a society we could almost 889 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 1: universally agree that infidelity degrades people in families. However, you 890 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: can hardly watch a sitcom, movie or program that doesn't 891 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,319 Speaker 1: portray it in a compelling way. Think about it, and 892 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,880 Speaker 1: think about how bizarre that is. I absolutely love it 893 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,920 Speaker 1: that Mr Stewart had the fortitude and wisdom at age 894 00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,040 Speaker 1: twenty to see the potential pitfalls in the life as 895 00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: a Hollywood movie star, and he intentionally navigated around it. Rows. 896 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: That's some high level stuff. This is the part of 897 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: the Bargarase podcast where we proclaim that having character is 898 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 1: cool around here. You're not the cool kid because you 899 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: do dumb stuff. You're the cool kid because you do 900 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: wise stuff and having a value system that you live by. Nope, 901 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,360 Speaker 1: none of us are perfect. But you got to stand 902 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 1: for something or you'll fall for anything. Que the errand 903 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:35,760 Speaker 1: tipping not really, don't do it. Phil Mr Stewart truly 904 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,040 Speaker 1: was an up and coming Hollywood movie star. The road 905 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,320 Speaker 1: was paved before him. He received the Star of Tomorrow 906 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,399 Speaker 1: award in the nineteen seventies, and he purposefully walked away 907 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: from a lucrative future. I love it. He went on 908 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: to build custom homes, running outfitting business called Cricket Sky 909 00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,080 Speaker 1: Outfitters and Wyoming and have a wonderful family. So you 910 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 1: after they are in the early twenties, you were done. Yeah, 911 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:08,520 Speaker 1: and you went off to have outfitting business and build homes. 912 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: You know. I do some rustic furniture, right. I like 913 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: to be creative with my hands, and I'm I'm a 914 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,440 Speaker 1: person who likes the physical aspect of life and not 915 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,040 Speaker 1: merely an entertained part of life where you know a 916 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: screen or you know some of that stuff. And I'm 917 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: not saying I'm just glad there's there's all types to 918 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: make up the world, because I wasn't born to be 919 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: able to make things happen on a screen or or 920 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: that you know, that kind of stuff. Let's get back 921 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:40,239 Speaker 1: with Professor Tutan for a final look at Wilson Rawls 922 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 1: and some of the American ideals that shaped this book. 923 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm interested in why we are the way we are, 924 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,719 Speaker 1: and I'll reveal what the saddest part of the book 925 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:58,000 Speaker 1: was for me. Now, biographically, we know that Wilson Rawls 926 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,800 Speaker 1: did return. I mean not just to go to prison. 927 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,440 Speaker 1: You know he did return. He returned. Uh. I know 928 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:06,640 Speaker 1: that he returned because I know I know some Cherokee 929 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 1: folks over in Oklahoma that said he came with their 930 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,359 Speaker 1: classroom back when they were kids. So he did come back. 931 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: It makes me feel good. But even if he didn't play, 932 00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: that land has been sanctified. It's sacred now and there 933 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,879 Speaker 1: will always be some of him there in that land. 934 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: The saddest part to me in the book, even more 935 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,680 Speaker 1: sad than the dogs dying is that he had to 936 00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,840 Speaker 1: move away, and that's that line that he never came back. 937 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:33,480 Speaker 1: Because what makes me pound the table is, I mean, 938 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,920 Speaker 1: I just love rural life so much, people's connection to place, 939 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,759 Speaker 1: and just modern the modern world just disintegrates that in 940 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 1: so many ways, and it's just part of life. And 941 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,080 Speaker 1: the fact that Billy's the winnings of his championship coon 942 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,480 Speaker 1: hunt where the thing that gave them the money to 943 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: be able to move away and never come and in 944 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,439 Speaker 1: the book they moved to Tulsa and presumably never come back. 945 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: That's what got me. Man. Yeah, this is the genius 946 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,440 Speaker 1: of of literatures is we continue to read it and 947 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:04,520 Speaker 1: people say, why would you want to read that again? Well, 948 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,719 Speaker 1: some some say that literature reads us. You know, when 949 00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: we read it, we read it, and every time we 950 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:11,759 Speaker 1: read it, especially at the years have gone by, you 951 00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 1: read it differently. When I was a kid, what struck 952 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: me most was the death of the dogs. But like you, 953 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: when I read this recently, when they're the wagons packed 954 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: up and they're gonna leave, and he's looking back at 955 00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: that land one last time, and that that humble cabin 956 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 1: where they work so hard, it's a tear jerker in 957 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: that moment. It is because you know he'll never be back. 958 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,080 Speaker 1: And all of us have that tied to home. And 959 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,439 Speaker 1: many would say that when they dream, When we dream, 960 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: we have a childhood home that's in our dreams, and 961 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 1: it's always the same house. For me, it's always the 962 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: same house, the same place. I know, the smells, you know, 963 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,440 Speaker 1: and that's home. You Know what's wild too, is that 964 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,480 Speaker 1: in the movie you can actually see this cabin, you know, 965 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: and where they lived. It's like, oh man, that's I 966 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: want to go there. Back in those days for those 967 00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,319 Speaker 1: people that really lived in that kind of poverty, that 968 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,960 Speaker 1: kind of isolation, that wasn't a dream like and so 969 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,799 Speaker 1: them going to town was like major upgrade in everything. 970 00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,239 Speaker 1: So right now, when all of us live in cities 971 00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: and have these urbanized lives, we dream of going back 972 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,880 Speaker 1: to the country. And so you know, you kind of 973 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,040 Speaker 1: have to switch it around. And where they were seemed 974 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,799 Speaker 1: like paradise and they were leaving to go to this 975 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: thing that we now all know, which is it's just interesting. Now. 976 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 1: You know, what makes a great great work of art 977 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,600 Speaker 1: in literature is his irony. Right when something turns out 978 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,000 Speaker 1: to be the opposite what we assume. And in this novel, 979 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,080 Speaker 1: when Billy finally goes to Talaqua, which is the big city, 980 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: he runs into some kids who were in school and 981 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,360 Speaker 1: they're not nice to him. Is that city living? Is 982 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 1: that what it means to get in education? Is is 983 00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: Billy going to turn out like that? You know? And 984 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,120 Speaker 1: the irony is that his lack of education actually makes 985 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,040 Speaker 1: him a better person. That he can get his education 986 00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,520 Speaker 1: from the woods itself. And that's very much an American 987 00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,400 Speaker 1: theme right in our literature, is that the land itself 988 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: can teach us something right and we can get you know, 989 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,160 Speaker 1: it's mythologized in the life of Abraham Lincoln. You know, 990 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 1: he he learned right with a piece of charcoal on 991 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,320 Speaker 1: a on a wooden shovel by firelight in a cabin, 992 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,759 Speaker 1: you know. So we we really value that kind of 993 00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: education that um that can that can occur in the 994 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:13,399 Speaker 1: woods without much technology or or or city living. There's 995 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,399 Speaker 1: even an assumption that city life will uh will weaken men. 996 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: This is what Teddy Roosevelt thought. That's why he went 997 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,000 Speaker 1: west and reinvented himself, you know, and started hunting, wearing 998 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,360 Speaker 1: bear skin coats and Indian looking clothes. Yeah, you know, 999 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,799 Speaker 1: he got riched glasses. You know, he didn't he want 1000 00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 1: he really wanted to reinvigorate his masculinity in the practice 1001 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 1: of you know, frontier life. And that is really an 1002 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,680 Speaker 1: American thing, is you know, I'm I'm trying to understand 1003 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 1: this rural American identity and what interests me is specifically 1004 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: where it's connected to hunting. And so that's why I 1005 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,839 Speaker 1: ask you, is it really an American idea that we 1006 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,799 Speaker 1: learned from the land and and you know, we we've 1007 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,080 Speaker 1: done series on Daniel Boone where we've seen that this 1008 00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: idea of solitude and the wilderness is really an American idea. 1009 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:02,120 Speaker 1: Like much of much of the world. Prior to a 1010 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,560 Speaker 1: couple hundred years ago, we were doing our very best 1011 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: to get away from wilderness because the wilderness is where 1012 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,400 Speaker 1: you died. You know, there's themes inside the Bible of 1013 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,920 Speaker 1: wilderness being separation from God and all this. But then 1014 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,400 Speaker 1: when we get here to what is now America, it 1015 00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 1: was different. I guess I'm trying to understand. Even the 1016 00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 1: the European settlement of America and all its trouble and 1017 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: wild stuff that happened, it was pretty unique to the 1018 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,919 Speaker 1: world and that it was it was the last big 1019 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,520 Speaker 1: block of the world that was kind of modernized, if 1020 00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: that's an appropriate word, but a lot of for some 1021 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,480 Speaker 1: unique stuff to happen in terms of the way we 1022 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,200 Speaker 1: interacted with the land. And and I'm also interested in 1023 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,920 Speaker 1: how Native American culture deeply impacts kind of rural American 1024 00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,040 Speaker 1: culture today in ways that we don't understand, and this 1025 00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,919 Speaker 1: book shows that strongly too. Definitely, when Europeans arrived here, 1026 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: they invented the notion of the frontier. You think about it, 1027 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,560 Speaker 1: it's probably obvious, but you know, Indigenous people didn't think 1028 00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,160 Speaker 1: of the front They didn't have a frontier. This was 1029 00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 1: just where they live. Yeah, didn't have a notion of 1030 00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,960 Speaker 1: wilderness either. They said, you know, there was nothing wild. 1031 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, they say Luther standing bearrom than reading him 1032 00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:08,399 Speaker 1: right now. He's a famous suit chief, and he said, 1033 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: and he lived in a time before even saw a 1034 00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,279 Speaker 1: white person on the plains, and he said, uh, it 1035 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,840 Speaker 1: was not wild, it was tame. Because they were so 1036 00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: comfortable in their ancestral land. And it's taken centuries for 1037 00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:23,200 Speaker 1: Americans to become comfortable in this land. When the Puritans 1038 00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,440 Speaker 1: arrived here in six two. They were in armor, breastplates 1039 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,240 Speaker 1: and muskets and were you know, are armed and ready 1040 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: for that great threat of a wall of forest and 1041 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,000 Speaker 1: beyond it. They knew nothing, just that they were already 1042 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,680 Speaker 1: stories of savage people that would kill you, and they're 1043 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,759 Speaker 1: absolutely terrified. And the first thing they wanted to do 1044 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,880 Speaker 1: was clear path. I mean, get some of the trees 1045 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 1: down so they can get see. We were talking about 1046 00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,960 Speaker 1: the fear of the dark. You know, it's taken Europeans 1047 00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,279 Speaker 1: in North America were absolutely terrified of a forest, you know, 1048 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,160 Speaker 1: I mean the imagination runs wild with you know, indigenous 1049 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: people ready to kill you and scalp you. Absolutely terrified. 1050 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:00,640 Speaker 1: And it took, like I said, centuries for people to 1051 00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 1: move Europeans and move into the woods and understandably adapt 1052 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:05,759 Speaker 1: some of the ways of Native Americans who knew how 1053 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,880 Speaker 1: to do it, and slowly became more American in that process. 1054 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:11,760 Speaker 1: And that's something I didn't come up with. That. Fredis 1055 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,480 Speaker 1: Jackson Turner, the famous historian, said that long ago. He 1056 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:16,960 Speaker 1: called that a frontier thesis. And that's what makes us 1057 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:20,240 Speaker 1: uniquely American. If you look into the accounts on the frontier, 1058 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,280 Speaker 1: as Europeans would call it Native Americans and frontier people, 1059 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, white settlers were living side by side. Often 1060 00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,720 Speaker 1: they were neighbors, you know. But what's important members these 1061 00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: people knew each other. They knew each other my name, 1062 00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:34,200 Speaker 1: and would live within you know, a gunshot of each other. 1063 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 1: That was the rule back then is you had to 1064 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:37,680 Speaker 1: be able within a gun far enough that you could 1065 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,960 Speaker 1: barely hear a gunshot. And so it's a process that 1066 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: we're very proud of, right and still today. Those are 1067 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: the values that many of us, whether we're thinking of 1068 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 1: becoming a back to the lander or you know, wanting 1069 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: to you join the Boy Scouts and take hikes, all 1070 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,200 Speaker 1: of that. We're kind of, in a healthy manner, were 1071 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,840 Speaker 1: re enacting that, that frontier spirit. And sometimes it can 1072 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,040 Speaker 1: be corny if we're not self conscious of it. Reflective, 1073 00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: like like you said a moment ago, we can romanticize 1074 00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,280 Speaker 1: tough living in a cabin something that you know, like 1075 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,840 Speaker 1: I mentioned my father, they had no running water, you know, 1076 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,440 Speaker 1: they had no electricity, and as a child I romanticized that. 1077 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,200 Speaker 1: But he was very happy to escape that life, you know, 1078 00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,840 Speaker 1: although never quite comfortable in a suit, never and as 1079 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 1: soon as he retired, he was oddly regained the Southern 1080 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 1: accident came back to him. Yeah. Yeah, I've never been 1081 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,720 Speaker 1: back to the old arcs. All I have left are 1082 00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 1: my dreams and memories. Yes, some day, if God is willing, 1083 00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,160 Speaker 1: I'd like to go back and walk again in the 1084 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,400 Speaker 1: hills I knew as a boy, And I'd like to 1085 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 1: touch the heart that's carved in an old sycamore tree, 1086 00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,720 Speaker 1: just says Dan. And An and I look for that 1087 00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,920 Speaker 1: sacred spot by the river where the red fern grows. 1088 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on it. But 1089 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 1: whatever culture you're a part of, you've been impacted by 1090 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 1: its literature and stories. Going back into deep human history. 1091 00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,040 Speaker 1: Since the beginning, stories have been inoculated with a live 1092 00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,840 Speaker 1: value system that is looking for hosts to carry it onward. 1093 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,760 Speaker 1: It might be pertinent to ask which came first, the 1094 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 1: story or the value system. Do we create stories to 1095 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,000 Speaker 1: carry values or did the values create the stories. A 1096 00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:49,320 Speaker 1: famous Native American author named moment Day said, quote, man 1097 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,800 Speaker 1: tells stories in order to understand his experience and achieves 1098 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:59,800 Speaker 1: the fullest realization of his humanity in literature. End of quote. Undoubtedly, 1099 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:03,440 Speaker 1: the book Where the Red Fern Grows is one American 1100 01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:07,560 Speaker 1: classic that I can fully get behind. Aside from Billy 1101 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: hunting them red bone hounds, the story is replete with character, 1102 01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:16,200 Speaker 1: and it also has a fundamental component of spirituality that 1103 01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,840 Speaker 1: I believe is an important and vital part of the 1104 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 1: human story. I still marvel at the widespread reach of 1105 01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,800 Speaker 1: a book about coon hunting. Surely Mr Wilson tapped into 1106 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: an awareness of his own humanity and was truly gifted 1107 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 1: in his ability to connect us to place in such 1108 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,240 Speaker 1: a seamless way. We all felt like we were there, 1109 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: regardless of our past background, geographic location, or economic status. 1110 01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:46,920 Speaker 1: The story is a humble human story, and therein lies 1111 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,240 Speaker 1: a pattern for those of us interested in seeing our 1112 01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,400 Speaker 1: lifestyle of living close to the land persists through time. 1113 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,480 Speaker 1: Nobody cares about coon hunting, but they're moved by people's 1114 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 1: story and their connection to place. Thank you all so 1115 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,280 Speaker 1: much for listening to Bear Grease. All the things we 1116 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,760 Speaker 1: talk about on this podcast are deeply personal to me, 1117 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,600 Speaker 1: and me and the team at Metator work hard to 1118 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,280 Speaker 1: bring you quality content every week, and I can't thank 1119 01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,440 Speaker 1: you enough for the support and for listening. Please do 1120 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,040 Speaker 1: me a favor and share our podcast with friend and 1121 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,080 Speaker 1: foe this week Thanks to you guys, the demand for 1122 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,040 Speaker 1: our bear grease hats is off the chart and we're 1123 01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:38,120 Speaker 1: sold out again. Our apologies, but we should have some 1124 01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,880 Speaker 1: new hats by May. When they come in then you 1125 01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:44,480 Speaker 1: better get them quick. But we do have some of 1126 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:48,680 Speaker 1: those black panther believer hats on the metator dot com 1127 01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:51,720 Speaker 1: right now. See you next week on the Rent