1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Our guest today is Dr Heather Coleman. Dr. Coleman is 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: a historian of Russian religion whose research guides us back 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: into Russia's past to see the importance of religion as 5 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: a force for social change, and she comes at the 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: topic from some surprising directions. For instance, take her book 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: Russian Baptists and the Spiritual Revolution nineteen o five to 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine. When she learned that few historians had 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: written about the importance of Russian Baptists during the rise 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: of the Bolsheviks, she wrote the book herself. Ever since, 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: Dr Coleman has focused her work on the stories that 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: give life to Russian religious history. Her more recent collection 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: is Orthodox Christianity in Imperial Russia, a source book on 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: lived religion. It takes the perspective of people on the ground, 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: helping us to understand how everyday Russian's connected to their church, 16 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: their faith, and the powers at the hearts of the Empire. 17 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: We love nothing better than the stories that give meaning 18 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: to our lives. So Dr Coleman's focus on the ways 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: that Christianity was experienced beyond the courts and palaces of 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: the romanof Empire made her a perfect guide to the 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: ins and outs of the church during the life of 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: Grigory Rasputin. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season four. 23 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: I'm Aaron Manky for Unobscured Podcast. I'm Karl Nlis and 24 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: today I'm talking with Dr Heather Coleman, Professor of History 25 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: at the University of Alberta. Dr Coleman is a historian 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: of Russia. She has written extensively on religion and modernization 27 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: in Russia and across the Russian Empire in the nine 28 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: and twentieth centuries. For ten years, Dr Coleman served as 29 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: editor of the Canadian Slavonic Papers, and she directs the 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: program on Religion and Culture at the Canadian Institute of 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: Ukrainian Studies. It's a privilege to be talking with Dr 32 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: Coleman today, So Heather, welcome to Unobscured Podcast. Thank you 33 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: for having me. I'm very excited to talk to you. Well, 34 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: we're so glad to have you with us. Um, let's 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: just start a little bit more about your work. Uh, 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: in your words, you focused your scholarly work on religion 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: in Russia. What originally brought you to this study. Well, 38 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: I actually didn't think much about religion when I first 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: started my graduate work. To be honest, in the nineteen eighties, 40 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: when I was an undergraduate, religion was was not just 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: treated as though it didn't matter in modern Russian history. 42 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: It was quite simply not treated. I just it was 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: just not really covered, and so I didn't really develop 44 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: questions about it. I was interested in understanding how ordinary 45 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: people experienced the utopianism of the nineteen twenties, the early 46 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 1: Bolshevik period, a period when the Bolsheviks were driving to 47 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: trying to sort of create a new were old and um. 48 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: For my master's thesis, I was exploring their their programs 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: for transforming women's lives. But in the newspapers of the 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, I found the Bolsheviks very very anxious about 51 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: the Baptists and and perceiving the Baptists as their competition 52 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: for organizing women. Oh, look, the Baptists have a choir. 53 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: Maybe we should have a choir. And I started to think, well, now, 54 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: isn't that interesting. Maybe religion did matter, maybe it was 55 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: a thing. And as I pursued my moved into my 56 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: doctoral studies, I came back to this, this interesting observation, 57 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: and I went into the library at the University of 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: Illinois where I was doing my PhD. And by miracle, 59 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: they had a full run of a nineteen twenties Baptist 60 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: Ukrainian magazine, and I opened it up and there was 61 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: lively public life, an organization that was that was experiencing 62 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: a religious revival in the midst of early socialism, and 63 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: I was fascinated. Um and so that was part of it. 64 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: But it was also timing. This was the early post 65 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: Soviet period, a period when there were all kinds of 66 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: new archival opportunities, the archives that had been closed were 67 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: opening up, But it was also a period of great 68 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: religious revival. H And I think that we had a 69 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:40,679 Speaker 1: sense that that religion was an important factor in historical change, uh, 70 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: something that historians in the in the sort of middle 71 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century had had tended to disregard. But 72 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: we saw it, you know, in our own lives. We 73 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: saw how religion was a lens through which individuals were 74 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: making sense of the collapse of communism in Central and 75 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: Eastern Europe. And so I think I think that um, 76 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: there were both intellectual reasons and and and and reasons 77 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: of timing that brought me to this. And my professor 78 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: said to me when I said I wanted to do 79 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: religious topic, oh, you'll have that phone booth to yourself. 80 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: But when I got to the archives in in in 81 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: in Russia, there were all kinds of graduate students who 82 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: had all independently come to be interested in religious topics, 83 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: and we'd all been told we'd be alone, and there 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: we were together. And so I've been working on this 85 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: ever since. Mhm wow, Well, and you focused on on 86 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: those Baptists. Um, can you say maybe just a couple 87 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: more words about how your work on the Baptist in 88 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: that early beginning, how has it continued to inform your scholarship. Well, um, yeah, 89 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: so I mean came to the topic through the nineteen twenties, 90 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: but I then discovered that there was a whole pre 91 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: revolutionary story that explained why they were such an issue 92 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: in early Soviet Russia. Um. This the state church and 93 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: the majority religion in Imperial Russia was the Orthodox Church, 94 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: and Russia until nineteen o five was an autocracy with 95 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: no constitution, no representative government. It was illegal to leave 96 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: the Orthodox Church if you were orthodox um. And yet 97 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: I I discovered through um my my research that in 98 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: the last decades before the Revolution, the Baptist faith was 99 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: rapidly spreading among ordinary people. Um. And These were people who, 100 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, government and church were used to thinking of 101 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: as as sort of true and patriotic Russians. But these 102 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: people were embracing a Western form of religion, one that 103 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: had egalitarian communities that elected their own pastors. And and 104 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: and so these people's private religious choices became a big 105 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: public issue in late Imperial Russia. They became a touchstone 106 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: for discussions about Orthodoxy and Russian identity, about the relationship 107 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: between church and state, about freedom of conscience, about civil society, 108 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: about the democratic potential of the Russian people, about socialism. 109 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: And and I think that this, my work on religious sectarianism, 110 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: continues to inform my scholarship because it it alerted me 111 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: to the importance of religion in people's lives, the importance 112 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: and in public discourse. Um. It brought to it brought 113 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: me to an interest in Orthodoxy, which I have now 114 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: been studying for many years, because it brought me to 115 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: a realization that the church, which had been treated as 116 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: sort of irrelevant and we'll talk more about this, but 117 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of dead um was was was not as dead 118 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: as previously reported. Um. And and my interest in the 119 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: relationship between religion and power in Russian state and society 120 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: has been a thread that started with this work on 121 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: the Baptists and has continued throughout my career. Mhmm, yeah, 122 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: that's great. Can you, from that point tell us a 123 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: bit more about what we know about the varieties of 124 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Christianity active across the massive Russian Empire in the late 125 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds. You know, you say, 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: the Orthodox Church, of course, was the state Church, the 127 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: sanction church, um. But what were the varieties of Christianity 128 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: in such a big and multivarious place. Yes, the word 129 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: empire is key here, because, of course it's there was 130 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: a huge variety of Christianity, in part due to huge 131 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: ethnic variety. UM. As you just mentioned, the overwhelming majority 132 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: of Christians were Orthodox Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Georgians, small communities 133 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: of Greeks and Serbs who lived in the south. They 134 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: were all traditionally Orthodox. But there were also um substantial 135 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: numbers of Roman Catholics. We forget that that much of 136 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: Poland was part of the Russian Empire in this period, 137 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: and they were Catholic. U. Large numbers of Lutherans, especially 138 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: in the in the northwest Finland what are what are 139 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: now Estonia and Latvia were part of the Russian Empire. Uh. 140 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: There were lots of Mennonites in the South Army the 141 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: Armenian Apostolic Church. And then there were a wide variety 142 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: of smaller groups that were care arized by the government 143 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: of sects, so groups like the Duka Bors or the Molikons, 144 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: the Old Believers, UM, Evangelical Christians of various sorts, especially 145 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 1: the Baptists I just mentioned. So in addition to UM, 146 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: Islam and Buddhism and many many other faiths, there was 147 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: a huge variety of Christianity. Mm hmm. Could you say 148 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: a few words about the role of print culture in 149 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: changing the Russian experience of religion Broadley during the late 150 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: Imperial period. Well, that's a good question to um. The 151 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: late let's say, from from the middle from the eighteen sixties, 152 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: when Russia began a period of profound reform and transformation 153 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:04,359 Speaker 1: UM and some loosening up of government control and censorship. 154 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: In the eighteen sixties right up to the revolution. UM, 155 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: you see a real transformation of the UH, an expansion 156 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: of the press, but also a sharp rise in literacy rates. UM. 157 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: And these work together, of course, UM. You know, there's 158 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: this is a period of the great rise of the 159 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: popular press more generally in in the world, due to 160 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: technological change, but also to changing literacy rates. And certainly, 161 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: for example, with the Great Reforms, you have the great 162 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: expansion in public education and so UH. In you know, 163 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the Great Reforms, at the beginning 164 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: of the eighteen sixties, perhaps six percent of the population 165 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: in rural areas were was literate. But by nineteen seventeen, um, 166 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: over you know, over of rural women and six of 167 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: urban women were literate. And and those rates were quite 168 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: a bit higher for men, especially for young men. So 169 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: we have a great expansion of of um of literacy. 170 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: But we also have the development of a mass circulation press. UM. 171 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: This includes both UM sort of popular newspapers and and magazines, 172 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: but also just a lot of short pamphlets and UH 173 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: and and other very inexpensive print products that are circulating. UH. 174 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: This is also a period of a great rise in 175 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: the religious press. And this has a role, very very 176 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: important role in religious life in two ways. UM. First, 177 00:12:55,320 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: the the there's a rise in UH press that is 178 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: published by the church for the church, and so there's 179 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: a great flowing flowering of local diocesan newspapers and UH 180 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: magazines aimed at UH at parish priests, helping them to 181 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: preach better, to try new techniques, to organize their their 182 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: their religious lives, of their communities better. But there's also 183 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: a great rise of of magazines that are aimed at 184 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: ordinary believers. UM, you know, with stories of of religious UH, 185 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: people's religious experiences with explanation, you know, stories of people's pilgrimages, 186 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: of people's miracles that people have experienced, with explanations of 187 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: Bible stories and so on. Lives of the Saints in 188 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: cheap editions. Also UM. In the in eighteen sixty two, 189 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: the the first Russian translations of the Gospel into ordinary 190 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: spoken Russian in cheap editions became available and these were 191 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: widely distributed through the church networks in the beginning in 192 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: the sixties and right through until the Revolution, and the 193 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church emphasized putting the Bible in people's hands, and 194 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: so UH there's a great distribution of the Bible. And 195 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: what's important about this is that even though literacy rates 196 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: remained low compared to many of Russia's European competitors, uh, 197 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: they're still pretty good among young people and increasingly good 198 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: among young people. And that and that meant that people 199 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: who couldn't read still had access to this print culture. 200 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: Because people who could read read to their their elders, 201 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: read to their grandparents, it's read to their families and 202 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: so Uh. This print culture allows the diffusion of common 203 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,479 Speaker 1: ideas and stories. It makes people more aware of, um, 204 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: you know, places they might go on pilgrimage and and 205 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 1: and better familiar with the Bible and with the stories 206 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: of the saints and so on. Mm hmm. Thinking about 207 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: that expanse of the Russian Empire, are there distinct regional 208 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: differences in Russian religion, say east and west of the Urals? Yes, 209 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: so the Urals are the traditional dividing line between European 210 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: and Asian Russia. Um. I think the the answer is yes. Um, 211 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: there's still we still actually have a lot of work 212 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: to do precisely on this topic of the varieties of 213 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: orthodox see um. But I certainly can say a few 214 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: words now, I mean regional variety was actually, of course normal. Um, 215 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: it's really all across Europe in the nineteenth century. Modernization 216 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: means leads to churches to seek a kind of a uniformity, 217 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: and modern communications helped to promote uniformity. But religion all 218 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: across Europe remained very much regional and even local um 219 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: in its variations. So UM, local areas will have preferred 220 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: preferred saints, they will have UM hymns that they love, 221 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, they'll have local traditions. Um. Certainly, I would 222 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: say that Russian religion was different east of the Urals. Um. 223 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: In in Siberia, Um you have um much more old belief, 224 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: much more religious sectarianism, because um, the area east of 225 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: the Earls was was a place where where where religious 226 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: dissenters fled in the early modern period to get away 227 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: from the power of the state, before state communications became better. Um, 228 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: you have of course Islam, which uh, which Christianity encounters 229 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: east of the Earls, and south of the Earls, Um 230 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: you have indigenous religion in its great variety. East of 231 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: the Earls. Um there's a kind of a frontier atmosphere. 232 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: The official church infrastructure was much less developed. We shouldn't 233 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 1: exaggerate this. In in western Siberia we have ancient diocese 234 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 1: to boys quotsk and so on, but are not even 235 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: your quotes to boys. Um. But but there's there's very 236 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: little by way of seminary education and and so on. 237 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: So so certainly um, there is much more Uh, the 238 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: church has much more trouble um regulating religious practice just 239 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: because of distances and variety east of the earls. M 240 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: In the introduction to Orthodox Christianity and Imperial Russia, that 241 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: that really helpful source book that you edited and and 242 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: that you that you wrote the introduction for. You make 243 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: a few comments about the idea of dual faith, which 244 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: is that Russian peasant Christianity was a kind of thin 245 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: veneer over fundamentally pagan beliefs that the peasants somehow had um. 246 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: And while you know that this was a convenient simplification 247 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: for Soviet writers, could you say, if you words on 248 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: the distinctions between the religion practiced by church authorities and 249 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: popular religion as it was practiced by people, you know, 250 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's not a thin veneer over fundamentally pagan beliefs, 251 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: and you know, maybe that's the wrong way to simplify it. 252 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: But if we're talking about maybe Siberian Christianity versus what's 253 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: going on in St. Petersburg, how do we how do 254 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: we see differences between the religion of the church authorities 255 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: and popular religion. Yeah, this is something that you know, 256 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: my generation of scholars has been really trying to think 257 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: in new ways about Uh. This notion of dual dual 258 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: faith is somewhat problem problematic, but we can we can. 259 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: We can also, of course say that religion is um 260 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: is certainly going to be different in different social classes 261 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: and different ethnic groups and different regions. And and UM. 262 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: I think that what what my generation has perhaps UM 263 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: as exemplified in that Orthodox Christianity and Imperial Russia book 264 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: has has has sort of combat It is a view 265 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: that that just because um, uh say, lower class groups 266 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 1: do things differently from what the Church might prescribe, we 267 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that this is pagan 268 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: and and uh sort of um anti clerical. But because 269 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: usually the the um the people who are doing these 270 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: things believe what they are doing to be truly Christian 271 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: and are not doing this in any sense of opposition. UM. 272 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: Certainly ordinary people, peasants, lower class people, in the cities 273 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: often did things differently from how the priests would have 274 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: liked them to do things. So, for example, UM popular 275 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: religion was was certainly much more UM local, much more experiential, 276 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: much more oral. Uh. They people would would perhaps um 277 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: uh say prayers and get some of the words wrong, 278 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: and and then understand the reason for those prayers differently 279 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: because they had not understood all of the words. UM. 280 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: They had local sites of pilgrimage that were that that 281 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 1: that UM, we're not unnecessarily approved by the powers that 282 00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: be UM. They would uh local local UM. Local communities 283 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: would often have UM, for example, icons that they regarded 284 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: as miraculous UM and that had not been officially approved. 285 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: And it's quite interesting because the priests would be in 286 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: a funny position with many of these local practices because 287 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: on one on the one level, priests were supposed to 288 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: ensure sort of Orthodox orthodoxy, you know, to make sure 289 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: that people were doing things right UM. At the same time, 290 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: the priests were members of the local community, and they 291 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: they they they appreciated their their their parishioners faithfulness, and 292 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,959 Speaker 1: they appreciated their parishioners involvement, and so they had to 293 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: walk a fine line between correcting and supporting the religion 294 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: pocity of their parishioners. Would you describe the place of 295 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: relics in Russian Orthodoxy? And if we want to get 296 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: a little kind of theological you know what that says 297 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: about Orthodox theology maybe of the body or um, of 298 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: whether the material world is somehow redeemable. What's going on 299 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: with relics in the in the Russian church? Um, well, 300 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: thanks for the that's a good question. Um. This gets 301 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: to the heart actually of orthodox theology. Um. The doctrine 302 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: of the incarnation, the notion that God became fully human 303 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: in the form of Jesus Christ and yet remained fully 304 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: God at the same time, is at the heart of Christianity, 305 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: and it's particularly at the center of Orthodox spiritual practice. Um. 306 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: So the aim of a Christian life is to preserve 307 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: and intensify the union between God and humans that that 308 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: God exemplified by becoming a man in Jesus Christ. And 309 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: and um, the the the what's the word? Sorry? The 310 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: the sorry, the it's not worshiping the sorry. I'm having 311 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: a blank here. I'll try this again. The relics of 312 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: the saints play an important role in this sort of 313 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: incarnational theology and this incarnational spirituality. Uh the relics of 314 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: saints are are perceived as um as a reminder that 315 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: God took a material body and that by doing that, 316 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: God proved that matter could be redeemed and so um. 317 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: There there is a uh An Orthodox tradition it's not 318 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: a dogma, but a tradition that um that the bodies 319 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: of of saints will not corrupt, that they are incorruptible 320 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: and um and that they're miraculously preserved from decay. And 321 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: so in many monasteries there are the the uncorrupted remains 322 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: of various saints, and people will come on pilgrimage to 323 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: pray before these these relics um and you know, and 324 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: and sermons and magazines at the time would explain that 325 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: that that these incorruptible bodies of God's saints were God's 326 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: way of showing people that they too participated in in 327 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: this connection between God and and humans, that their own 328 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: bodies would be resurrected at the end of time. That 329 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: that and that Orthodox truth was was sort of shown 330 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: through these bodies, and so people would come to pray 331 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: before the relics as um as channels of divine power 332 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: as as ways to to focus on the lives of 333 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: those saints and the the the the realities of the incarnation. 334 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: This is this is a kind of a related question 335 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: and not in my list, But I was talking with 336 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: the theologian that I'm working with, who's who's researching the program, 337 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: and we we've kind of been wondering, how influential do 338 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: you do you know how influential St. Simme and the 339 00:26:54,720 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: New Theologian was on Russian monasticism in this period. I don't, 340 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, that's that's all right, that's right. 341 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: You know, of course we're headed towards Resputin, and Rasputin 342 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: seems to have taken the teachings of St. Simmean, the 343 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: New Theologian and the the Relic as a means of 344 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: connecting with God and veneration, devotion and taking that onto 345 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: him onto himself. And you know, maybe in a distortion 346 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: or an idiosyncratic way of interpreting um that the living 347 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: body of Rasputin the teacher should be treated as a 348 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: relic or the way that a dead relic would be. Um. Well, this, 349 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: I mean this, this does connect into the the Orthodox. 350 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: This is a distortion of of a broader Orthodox theology 351 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: of of um the image and UM. You know that 352 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: that Orthodoxy is um is a much more has a 353 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: much more well developed theology of the material then Western 354 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: Christianity does. And um Uh Orthodoxy UM believes that we 355 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 1: I mean, as as do other Christians, that humans are 356 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: are are made in the image of God, and so 357 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: Jesus is an icon uh an image of God. But 358 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: so is each person and and that are that our 359 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: our our goal in life are our salvation entails becoming 360 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: uh that that perfect image of God. Um. Salvation involves 361 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: connecting with the holy energies that are around us and 362 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: aligning our behavior and our minds and our spirits with 363 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: with those holy energies in order to fully realize this, 364 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: this incarnation, this this this um, the fact that we 365 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: are created in the image of God and so and 366 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: so you know when Resputin is doing this, he's drawing 367 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: on UM. He's drawing on important ideas that are at 368 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: the heart of Orthodox spirituality. That's great, UM, so kind 369 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 1: of climbing back into our our questions and our outline. Here, 370 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 1: would you give us a brief description of what is 371 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: meant by Old believers in Russia at this period. Oh sure, 372 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: so the Old Believers were quite a large group of 373 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: of Orthodox people who were in schism with the main 374 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church. Back in the seventeenth century, the official Orthodox 375 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,719 Speaker 1: Church began to to modernize and began to reform and 376 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: try to standardize religious practice. And as it did so, 377 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: it um it discovered that Russian practice had begun to 378 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: differ from that of the Greeks. Um. The Orthodox faith 379 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: had originally come from from the Greeks and Uh. The 380 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 1: leaders of the church at this time UH, as they 381 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: were standardizing, tended to standardize in ways that that followed 382 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: the ways that the Greeks did things um. And this 383 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: was very upsetting to many Orthodox believers because as I 384 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: as I just mentioned um right Orthodox he means right 385 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: practice and the physical practice, the way that one worships, 386 00:30:54,280 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: is considered to be critical to reaching salvation. And Russia 387 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: had had traditionally crossed themselves with two fingers um uh and, 388 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: which is a symbol of the incarnation, but the Greeks 389 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: crossed themselves with three fingers, a symbol of the Trinity, 390 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: another important doctrine um and uh and when the when 391 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: the church began to correct the ways in which believers worshiped. UH. 392 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: There was a whole element who, for example, resisted crossing 393 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: themselves with three fingers because they really believed that that 394 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: if they practiced wrong, that they that their salvation was 395 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: in jeopardy. UM. There were many UH, there were many 396 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: issues connected to the the emergence of the Old Believers. 397 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: But at the center of it was this this dispute 398 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: about religious authority and and about and about wrecked practice. 399 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: And so in the late seventeenth century you have large 400 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: numbers of people who left the church UH and became 401 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: known dubbed as the old Believers. UM. And they UH 402 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: and and the old Believers continued UM. Right, well, there 403 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: are still old Believers today. UM. But it was illegal 404 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: to be an old Believer, and so many of them 405 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: fled to Siberia and to the farther reaches of the Empire. UM. 406 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: And and they were they became gradually more and more 407 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: tolerated in the nineteenth and early twentieth century. UM. But 408 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: but they were. But they were the The Orthodox Church 409 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 1: consistently UM wanted to bring them back into the fold, 410 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: and so they were considered a problem from the perspective 411 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: of the official Orthodox Church. Speaking of groups that are 412 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: treated as a problem. Could you described the Chlisti for 413 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: us uh the last the well Um the Klisti Um 414 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: started life as a group called the Um, the Christovchina 415 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: or the Christova Viera, which means the faith of Christ 416 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: or or God's People UM. This was a Russian religious 417 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: movement that that really began life in the late seventeenth 418 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: century out of the as a branch of the Old 419 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: belief And like certain other branches of the Old belief, 420 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: the the Christochina demanded celibacy from its adherents and Um 421 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: they had they had. They didn't have different doctrines or 422 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: any sort of systematic doctrine. These were groups of believers 423 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: who met together regularly at night for long prayer meetings 424 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: where they would see spiritual verses and church hymns and 425 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: recite the Jesus Prayer, a central Orthodox prayer UM, that 426 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: is is recited in a meditative format. Lord Jesus, Christ, 427 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner, and 428 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 1: you recite it over and over UM. And these meetings 429 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: UM UH would the goal was to have the Holy 430 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: Spirit descend on certain of the members UH. These leaders, 431 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: who were known as Christ's or as mothers of God. 432 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: And then and then they would dance, and they would 433 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: prophesy um. At the same time, these people would faithfully 434 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: attend the official Orthodox Church and fulfill their obligations in 435 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: the official Orthodox Church. Some of them even entered convents 436 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: and monasteries. But and so, But very early their enemies 437 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:04,720 Speaker 1: started calling them uh Christi or Christ's but clisti, which 438 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: means a whip or flagolence. Um. They were accused of 439 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: sexual immorality, of having orgies. Um. The American historian Eugene 440 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: Clay has shown that there wasn't fact, there is in 441 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: fact no evidence of this and um that you know 442 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: already in the early eighteenth century, the term clisti really 443 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: doesn't have any any meaning. It's it's it's applied to 444 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: a whole range of unrelated sort of charismatic religious movements. Um. 445 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: There's no religious group that claims to be clisti. Um. 446 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: There are certainly some evidence of networks of these charismatic groups, 447 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,359 Speaker 1: but they saw themselves as being within Orthodoxy. Mm hm. 448 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: Would you say a bit about why Baptist faith in 449 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: Russia was considered German or foreign? Yeah, well, that's a 450 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: that's a good question. UM. Not not so surprising about 451 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: the foreign bit, but certainly about the German bit, because 452 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: those who know the history of the Baptist Faith know 453 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: that it it's an English phenomenon originally, UM. But it's 454 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: the Baptist Faith spread into the German Lands in the 455 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: early nineteenth century and UM and UH through sort of 456 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: pious networks and so on, and and then UM by 457 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,920 Speaker 1: the eighteen forties and fifties, it's spread into the Russian 458 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: Empire through the many, many, many German UH colonies of 459 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: people living within the Russian Empire. So there were there 460 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: were German communities spread throughout Poland, which was adjacent to 461 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: the German Lands. There were German speaking communities all across 462 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: the south of the Empire what is now Ukraine, UM, 463 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: who had been invited to come and and develop agricultural 464 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: communities and so on in the empire. UM. And there's 465 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: of course German speakers in the Baltic provinces and and 466 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: so the Baptist Faith came through those German networks into 467 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: the Russian Empire and developed first among ethnic Germans UM 468 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,720 Speaker 1: in the cities and in the countryside, and then UM 469 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: local Russians and Ukrainians who were in contact with these 470 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: Germans sometimes became attracted to UH, to the sort of 471 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: revivalist hymn singing meetings and started started joining them. And 472 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: the Baptist faith began to spread among Russians and Ukrainians 473 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 1: in the Empire, but it was considered to be sort 474 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: of a foreign thing because it was because to be 475 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: Russian was to be Orthodox. Mm hmm. Could you say 476 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that? How how did the 477 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church relate not just to the Baptists but also 478 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,400 Speaker 1: to the Old Believers and these other devotional movements, charismatic movements. 479 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: Is there a way to kind of crystallize and articulate 480 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: how the church authorities related to sects and sectarianism in 481 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties and the early nine hundreds. Well, um 482 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: so in the in the eighteen nineties, the in large 483 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: part from through pressure from the Orthodox Church, the state 484 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: had a system of classifying the danger of various what 485 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: it called religious sects and um and they were They 486 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: were classified as more or less dangerous based on their 487 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: um on on a couple of on their distance from Orthodoxy, 488 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:19,240 Speaker 1: on their UH evangelicalism with a small e. In other words, 489 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: whether they were sort of proselytizing or not, and then 490 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: on their on their um sort of moral stance. And 491 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: so the Policeti are are classified as as most dangerous 492 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: because they are also allegedly uh you know, self flagellating 493 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,279 Speaker 1: and sexually dangerous and and so on, even if they 494 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: were in fact also somewhat imaginary. Um. And the Baptists 495 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: are classified as in the most dangerous category because they 496 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: were very big on proselytization. Um. So. So there's a state, 497 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: a state and church structure that are related. But in 498 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,959 Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties and early nineteen hundred's, the Orthodox Church 499 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: also had very active missions to bring all of these 500 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: groups what they called internal missions that were aimed at 501 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: bringing all of these groups that that had Russian ethnic 502 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: Russian believers back to the church um. And so there 503 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 1: were separate the the old Believers were perceived as as 504 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: their own sort of category, and there were separate mission 505 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: missions to the old believers and then to the various 506 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:41,120 Speaker 1: religious quote unquote sects and uh so the so so 507 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: there was and and and the church was very worried. Um. 508 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 1: It did not want the state to to to tolerate 509 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,879 Speaker 1: these these sex and it and it encouraged a perception 510 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: that that religious descent was connected to political dissent, and 511 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: that if you were not faithful to the state church, 512 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: how could you be faithful to the state. So on 513 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: the Russian church and state. Would you give us a 514 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: sketch of the structures of authority within the Russian Orthodox Church? Uh? 515 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 1: Maybe starting with Peter the Great, how his reign created 516 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: what you write is a major realignment in church and 517 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: state relations. What happened there? And then what does authority 518 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: look like with church and state towards the end of 519 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: the Russian Empire? Mm hmm, Well, this is, of course, 520 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: this question of church and state is a huge one. 521 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:54,120 Speaker 1: Um the uh so, Oh sorry, I don't even know 522 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: where to start. Sorry, let's just get myself together here. Um. Yeah, So, 523 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: the the relationship between church and state is usually seen 524 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: as having been fundamentally reordered under Peter the Great in 525 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: the early eighteenth century. UM. In the seventeenth century, the 526 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,880 Speaker 1: Russian Orthodox Church was what is known as an autocephalis, 527 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: or self governing independent Orthodox church, and it had, as 528 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: autos Cephalish churches do, a patriarch a UM. The the 529 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: top person in the church was um was called the 530 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: patriarch and UM. The There was already a lot of 531 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: tension between church and state in the seventeenth century, precisely 532 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: over the Old Believer reforms, the reforms that led to 533 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: the development of the Old Believer schism UM. When the 534 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: when the Church, the states stepped in and sort of 535 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: UH legislated on the schism and said that the church 536 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: was right, but that the patriarch who had instituted them 537 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,240 Speaker 1: UH needed to go UM. So the church was already 538 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: weakened by the late seventeenth century visa VI the state UM. 539 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: But in seventeen hundred, when the patriarch died, Peter the 540 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: Great didn't UM, didn't organize UH the appointment of a 541 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 1: new patriarch and just left the office empty. And then 542 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: in seventeen twenty one he introduced a new body to 543 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 1: replace to formally abolish the patriarchate and UH, and he 544 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: replaced it with a council of bishops known as the 545 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: Holy Senate and UH. This council of Bishops UH, starting 546 00:43:55,440 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: the following year in seventeen twenty two, was supervised by 547 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 1: a state official known as the over Procurator, who was 548 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: meant to be the eyes and ears of the monarch 549 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: in the Senate. This was later considered to be a 550 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: real sort of revolution against the traditional form of management 551 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: of the Orthodox Church, but also a diminution of the 552 00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church because the the Council of Bishops is was 553 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: although although it is incorrect as it is often stated 554 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: to suggest that it became a simply a department of 555 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: the state, the Holy Synod was was not the sort 556 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: of a parallel monarch the way that the patriarch had 557 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 1: been a parallel monarch of this church to the monarch 558 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: in the state. Um. And throughout the throughout the eighteenth century, 559 00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: the over procurator had relatively little power. But in the 560 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: nineteenth century we have a series of over procurators of 561 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: these general directors of the Senate who uh, who become 562 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: interested in religion and who interfere, and who who frustrate 563 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:22,800 Speaker 1: the bishops by by by by interfering and by by 564 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,359 Speaker 1: trying to introduce um use the church for the state's purposes. 565 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:36,239 Speaker 1: And so there was there was considerable tension in that system. Um. Yes, 566 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: I guess the only other thing I would say about 567 00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 1: structures of authority within the Orthodox Churches that that I 568 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,839 Speaker 1: should have mentioned at the beginning is that the the 569 00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: the the the um, the bishops, the the the hierarchy 570 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: of the church are all monastics. They're all monks and 571 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: uh they preside over UH. In order to rise in 572 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 1: the church, you have to be a monk uh and 573 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,280 Speaker 1: may preside over a church that is has a secular 574 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: clergy known as the white clergy, which are who are 575 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 1: who are the parish priests. But the parish priests cannot 576 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,439 Speaker 1: rise into the hierarchy unless they take monastic vows. So 577 00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: the structures are quite complex. Um in that respect, would 578 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: you say a little bit more about that difference between 579 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: the monastic clergy and the parish clergy at this point? 580 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: How are their lives different? Sure? So these are two 581 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,360 Speaker 1: the two big categories, the monastic clergy known as the 582 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,440 Speaker 1: black clergy, and the parish clergy sometimes known as the 583 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: white clergy. UM. The monastic clergy is divided into subdivided 584 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:57,240 Speaker 1: within itself into other categories um. The monastic clergy, the 585 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:03,120 Speaker 1: the the elite of the monastic clergy, the the the 586 00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: abbots of monasteries, the the diocesan hierarchs, the bishops um 587 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: are are all part of what it what was a 588 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:19,239 Speaker 1: sort of a learned um uh monasticism. These were These 589 00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: were monks who who trained in the theological academies and 590 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: who who became monks on the on the road to 591 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:34,120 Speaker 1: their rise through the church as as as I say, 592 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: rectors of seminaries and and bishops of provinces and dioces, 593 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 1: dioces and so on. Uh. Then there was a broader 594 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: um set of monks who were more or less educated 595 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: um and who who um were were um were lived 596 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: a much more reclusive monastic life um. And then there 597 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: were also female monastics as well, nuns. UM. On the 598 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 1: white clergy or parish clergy side, we have a very 599 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:21,000 Speaker 1: very different story, very interesting situation. The monastic sorry, the 600 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: parish clergy were a uh largely almost an almost a cast. Uh. 601 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: They were a married clergy. So they like like you 602 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:42,880 Speaker 1: know Anglican or um or you know Lutheran pastors. They 603 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:48,840 Speaker 1: they had families, um. They but they're but the children 604 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 1: of parish priests became themselves parish priests. They were educated 605 00:48:54,920 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: within uh. The church had a separate system of education 606 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: for clergy children, and clergy daughters tended to marry clergyman's 607 00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: sons and uh and and they would they would become 608 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,399 Speaker 1: priests and priests wives, just like their parents had been 609 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 1: before them. Uh. The parish clergy were increasingly well educated. Um. 610 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: The in the eighteenth century you have a bunch of 611 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: reforming bishops who who are instituting seminary education throughout the empire, 612 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: and by the by the eighteen thirties or forties, that's 613 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 1: become pretty much universal. Um, seminary education. Um. So the parish, 614 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:52,600 Speaker 1: the parish clergy were quite quite well educated. Um. And Uh, 615 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: they live they live very isolated lives in the village 616 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,000 Speaker 1: where they are often the only educated people. And so 617 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,800 Speaker 1: their families we were very Um they were at once 618 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 1: connected to the village. There part of village life, and 619 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,720 Speaker 1: they're separate because the children go off to these these 620 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: boarding schools in the provincial capitals to be educated and 621 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,680 Speaker 1: and and and they they they come back to the 622 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:25,440 Speaker 1: village with with with an urban culture that that that 623 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: is not shared with the villagers. So they're kind of um, 624 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,920 Speaker 1: they're kind of monkeys in the middle the the the 625 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 1: the bishops usually had come from clerical families, UM, so 626 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: they know that culture. But they but they lived very 627 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 1: different lives from the parish priests who who had to 628 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 1: be UM had to be supported by their local communities 629 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: and thus had a sometimes tricky relationship with their local communities. 630 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: How did the Great Reforms of the eighteen sixties change 631 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,560 Speaker 1: Russian religious life? How was the church affected by that 632 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,719 Speaker 1: period of of change the Great reforms? Yeah, so the 633 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: Great reforms of the eighteen sixties, Uh, you know, the 634 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,120 Speaker 1: the the reforms that follow from the emancipation of the 635 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: serfs in eighteen sixty one were the part of this. 636 00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 1: There was a there was a profound reform of the 637 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:36,400 Speaker 1: church that accompanied this. UM efforts to to to to 638 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:42,480 Speaker 1: to modernize the church, to to make the make the parish, 639 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: to to to make the parish clergy more vocational and 640 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,919 Speaker 1: less inherited as a as a as a profession, UM, 641 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: to free up the children of parish clergy, to to 642 00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: to leave the clerical state and work in other areas 643 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,959 Speaker 1: of society, UM, and so on. So on one level, 644 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: we have UM this this this sort of shake up 645 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,839 Speaker 1: in the organization and of the church and efforts to UH, 646 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:20,439 Speaker 1: efforts to allow clerical children to to to move out 647 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 1: into the broader world, and that actually had a profound 648 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,880 Speaker 1: effect on on education in the Russian Empire. Which was 649 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 1: booming in this period because many of those those UM 650 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,560 Speaker 1: clergy sons and daughters go into the education field and 651 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,600 Speaker 1: and bring with them the values of their of their UH, 652 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: their their their priest kids. You know, they bring those 653 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:50,240 Speaker 1: values of of of of of their families into the 654 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:55,879 Speaker 1: Russian broader Russian society. UM. It's also a period UM 655 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:06,880 Speaker 1: when when the Church, like all other organizations, is participating 656 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:16,920 Speaker 1: in education in UM UH the the the expanded communications world, 657 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:25,800 Speaker 1: and is trying to trying to popularize and standardize religion UM, 658 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:33,600 Speaker 1: to organize brotherhoods and other ways of of enlivening the 659 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,720 Speaker 1: life of the laity in the church and making lay 660 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:46,960 Speaker 1: practice more more knowledgeable and more UM more active. UM. 661 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:51,440 Speaker 1: And so the eighteen sixties UM that that spirit, that 662 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:56,040 Speaker 1: sort of populism with a small p of the eighteen sixties, 663 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,880 Speaker 1: that that desire to reach out to the people and 664 00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:06,239 Speaker 1: to lift the people really animates many priests vision of 665 00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: their ministry, and priests UM who had previously put great 666 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:17,960 Speaker 1: emphasis on their their liturgical function, their their role as 667 00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: ritual specialists. Although that although ritual remains profoundly important to 668 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:29,800 Speaker 1: Orthodox spirituality, UH priests really adopt a very very pastoral, 669 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: educational uh kind of self image from the eighteen sixties onward, 670 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,359 Speaker 1: and so uh and so we see the really the 671 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 1: rise of of of regular sermon giving and all all 672 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: kinds of interest in organizing oh say um uh anti 673 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 1: drinking circles in the parishes and Bible study groups and 674 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,160 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. So I think that the Great 675 00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: Reforms did have a real impact on Russian religious life. 676 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,879 Speaker 1: The final way I would say is that the Great 677 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:12,919 Speaker 1: Reforms are saw the beginning of the movement of some 678 00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,880 Speaker 1: peasants out of the villages. That you have the beginning 679 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:23,720 Speaker 1: of industrialization, you have a lot of migrant workers and um, 680 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,960 Speaker 1: people are less tied to the village than they had 681 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:31,319 Speaker 1: been before UM. And and so that all of that 682 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:37,080 Speaker 1: movement and uh exposes people to new kinds of ideas, 683 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: and that can be quite um uh for the church. 684 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,839 Speaker 1: That's a real challenge and and and the churches is 685 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:49,719 Speaker 1: very worried about um how how peasants are are are 686 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: are are no longer fully rooted in the village, and 687 00:55:55,239 --> 00:56:00,560 Speaker 1: and they fear that peasants will encounter such such dangerous 688 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:06,600 Speaker 1: things as as the Baptists or or the alisty. You've 689 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 1: also written that the eighteen hundreds is a time when 690 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:15,719 Speaker 1: the percentage of people in monasteries shifts towards women. M 691 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,720 Speaker 1: What was driving that change? Why why were more women 692 00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,839 Speaker 1: going into the monasteries during the eighteen hundreds. Well, you know, 693 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,120 Speaker 1: that's also very interesting, and it's it's actually not just women. 694 00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:33,279 Speaker 1: UM the there there is overall just a boom in 695 00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 1: monasticism in the nineteenth century um and and there's no 696 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: question that it's a disproportionate boom for for women. UM. 697 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:51,279 Speaker 1: In the eighteenth century, the Russians church and state UM 698 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,959 Speaker 1: like like other UM in other in Catholic Europe as well, 699 00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,680 Speaker 1: was quite anti monastic and um and there was a 700 00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:08,719 Speaker 1: real push to to too closed down most monasteries by 701 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:15,120 Speaker 1: the late eighteenth century um and and UM monasteries had 702 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 1: been had had had largely operated in cities before that, 703 00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 1: and they and basically to join a monastery you had 704 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,320 Speaker 1: to sort of have your own money, You had to 705 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,600 Speaker 1: be able to pay for yourself to come and be 706 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,480 Speaker 1: in the monastery. And there's a shift towards a more 707 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:40,640 Speaker 1: communal model of monasticism in the early nineteenth century. Uh 708 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,640 Speaker 1: And there's a and the state becomes and the Church 709 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,760 Speaker 1: become more positive about monasticism in the early nineteenth century, 710 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:53,080 Speaker 1: and that allowed for ordinary people to join these uh, 711 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: these these convents and monasteries when there was a collectivist 712 00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: model where you where the monastery itself became an economic unit, 713 00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 1: and and and the monks or the nuns worked together 714 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:15,320 Speaker 1: to farm or or produce artisanal things, to say, to 715 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,000 Speaker 1: pay for their way, or they had patrons. And the 716 00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:23,840 Speaker 1: monasteries also moved out into the countryside. And and so 717 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:31,200 Speaker 1: both men monasteries and women's monasteries UH saw a huge 718 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:37,959 Speaker 1: influx of peasants and lower urban people from the lower 719 00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: urban classes who who could now join these monasteries. And 720 00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 1: and most of these monasteries new monasteries were also in 721 00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:54,280 Speaker 1: the countryside, so they're more easily accessible. Um. It's actually 722 00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:59,560 Speaker 1: fairly hard for us to get at UH. We have 723 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 1: very few personal documents to give us insight into these 724 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:08,320 Speaker 1: very ordinary people's goals and what attracted them. But what 725 00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 1: we see is a combination of religious and personal and 726 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:19,040 Speaker 1: emotional benefits that that um, that people got from going 727 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,919 Speaker 1: to these monasteries. And we know that these women's monasteries 728 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:30,200 Speaker 1: in particular tended to start as informal lay communities that 729 00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: could could exist for years and years, and they were 730 00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: they were. This seems to have been a socially acceptable 731 00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:46,120 Speaker 1: way for peasant women who wanted to serve God who 732 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:51,880 Speaker 1: who who didn't want to participate in uh the the 733 00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:55,520 Speaker 1: the the the the sort of obligatory marriage and family 734 00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:02,840 Speaker 1: uh and agricultural life that most peasant women participated in. 735 01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 1: And these communities often were supported by local communities and 736 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:14,320 Speaker 1: perceived as as as acceptable and and um and and 737 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: places that that women who had a different sort of 738 01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:24,320 Speaker 1: spiritual calling could could go. And then gradually UH these 739 01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:29,160 Speaker 1: um these informal communities would become formalized and be become 740 01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,160 Speaker 1: part of the of the the monastic system of the church. 741 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,480 Speaker 1: So it's hard for us to say, but we can 742 01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:40,000 Speaker 1: certainly say for sure that by by the time of 743 01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,480 Speaker 1: the revolution there were far more women monastics than men. 744 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:50,760 Speaker 1: Mm hm, you write that in uh, in popular moods 745 01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: there were both affection and contempt for Russian Orthodox ministers. 746 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Would you just say a little bit more about that? Sure, 747 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:07,920 Speaker 1: there were certainly lots of you know, lots of folklore 748 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:13,280 Speaker 1: that made fun of of priests and um and and 749 01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, funny little phrases about priests. UM. The priest was, 750 01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:26,200 Speaker 1: of course a central figure in every village life, in 751 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,600 Speaker 1: the community in the cities as well. UM. Priests were 752 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:36,560 Speaker 1: were on one level highly respected. UH. They they performed 753 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:41,360 Speaker 1: the sacraments. They they were they were village leaders. They 754 01:01:41,400 --> 01:01:46,280 Speaker 1: were educated people in the community, both in the cities 755 01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: and in the countryside. UH. Priests wives were leaders in 756 01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:56,320 Speaker 1: the community as well. Their families were were ideally seen 757 01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,360 Speaker 1: as as models. UM. But there was also UM. There 758 01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,760 Speaker 1: was also contempt, and the contempt came from two sources. 759 01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: The contempt on one level, came from the social from 760 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:17,320 Speaker 1: from the from the rest of educated society, from noble 761 01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:23,439 Speaker 1: and professional classes of of educated society. And this came 762 01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,800 Speaker 1: from the fact that the clergy was such a sort 763 01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: of self contained, almost cast like social group who were 764 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,960 Speaker 1: educated in the seminaries, who married one another children. UM. 765 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:45,920 Speaker 1: They were perceived by the sort of secular uh educated 766 01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:51,400 Speaker 1: uh society as as being um sort of inward looking 767 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:58,479 Speaker 1: um um nativist. Uh. They're perceived as as as being 768 01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:04,760 Speaker 1: country bumpkins live in the countryside, and their education was 769 01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,920 Speaker 1: different their education UH, the education in the in the 770 01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:16,480 Speaker 1: state U gymnasea. The the state secondary schools was on 771 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:22,959 Speaker 1: a European Western European classical sort of model um and uh. 772 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: The the and and it emphasized Western European history, Western 773 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:37,080 Speaker 1: European literature, and so on. The seminary education emphasized religion, 774 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:43,720 Speaker 1: not surprisingly um and it also emphasized Russian literature and 775 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:51,160 Speaker 1: Russian culture um uh and and that was so they 776 01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,280 Speaker 1: had different they had different cultural worlds that they came 777 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,000 Speaker 1: from and and so they were looked down on in 778 01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:02,640 Speaker 1: that way. Now, meanwhile, with their communities, UM they were 779 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: they were certainly, as I say, central figures of of 780 01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:12,040 Speaker 1: the parish community and and looked up to most of 781 01:04:12,080 --> 01:04:20,080 Speaker 1: the time. But they were also um they were also resented. 782 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:25,800 Speaker 1: And they were resented because the community had to support 783 01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: them financially. And they had large families, so they were 784 01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:37,400 Speaker 1: expensive um and they were very expensive. Moreover, because the 785 01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: church required that required that they educate their sons at 786 01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:51,920 Speaker 1: these church run institutions. There were prep schools from about 787 01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:57,360 Speaker 1: the age of oh about nine or or so until 788 01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,720 Speaker 1: about fifteen, and they you went to the seminary, and 789 01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:06,200 Speaker 1: the seminary was from about age fifteen to twenty two. UM. 790 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:11,080 Speaker 1: The these parish these parish priests. Families were just in 791 01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:15,440 Speaker 1: a constant financial straits, trying to scrape up the money 792 01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 1: to pay to send the kids, you know, and pay 793 01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:21,240 Speaker 1: for the boarding houses where the kids would live in 794 01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:28,320 Speaker 1: the towns for this education and uh the priests. The 795 01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:35,600 Speaker 1: priests were paid basically through um uh tips, gratuity ees 796 01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:42,120 Speaker 1: and orthodoxy um has a involves a lot of different 797 01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:47,240 Speaker 1: rituals that people will have performed both in their homes 798 01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,480 Speaker 1: and and at the church. So um for baptisms and 799 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:56,200 Speaker 1: marriages and funerals, a tip would be expected. But also 800 01:05:56,280 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: the priest would visit to bless your home after Christmas 801 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,480 Speaker 1: us in January and and so on and and tips 802 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,520 Speaker 1: would be expected, and this of course created a very 803 01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:12,360 Speaker 1: awkward situation. And then the parish is also needed to 804 01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:19,560 Speaker 1: supply homes for their priests and land that the priest 805 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,560 Speaker 1: could work. But then the parishioners would also be expected 806 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,400 Speaker 1: to help farm that land, and of course that took 807 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:30,000 Speaker 1: time from the parishioner's own farming uh. And so there 808 01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:36,000 Speaker 1: was a lot of tension about the frankly paying the 809 01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,800 Speaker 1: clergy um. And then finally there was tension because as 810 01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:47,800 Speaker 1: I mentioned, um, you know, parishioners generally wanted religious services, 811 01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:53,480 Speaker 1: and they wanted their priests uh in the community, but 812 01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:58,120 Speaker 1: they didn't like when the priests corrected how them and 813 01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily like it if the priest didn't perform 814 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:05,640 Speaker 1: the ritual the way they wanted it performed. Um. And 815 01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:08,919 Speaker 1: so sometimes there could be tension about about that as well. 816 01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 1: M hm. So let's head toward the Romanov court and 817 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:21,560 Speaker 1: religion in Russian high society. Um, would you describe the 818 01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,040 Speaker 1: role of the czar in the Russian Church? Were there 819 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:29,440 Speaker 1: differences in how this role you know, was perceived among 820 01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,480 Speaker 1: the elite by himself versus how that's are in the 821 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:44,600 Speaker 1: would have been perceived popularly as a religious figure. So, um, 822 01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:50,320 Speaker 1: the there was a lot of there was a lot 823 01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:55,040 Speaker 1: of brew ha ha in in the West, which has 824 01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:59,320 Speaker 1: made its sway into into a lot of writing about 825 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:05,320 Speaker 1: the Russian Church, which argued that the Russian Church was 826 01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:10,560 Speaker 1: Caesaro papist, that just like the Byzantine Church, that the 827 01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,440 Speaker 1: that that sar was you know, that the tsar was 828 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,880 Speaker 1: the head of the church and ran the church, and 829 01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:21,360 Speaker 1: that that was made particularly clear, you know with Peter 830 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:27,000 Speaker 1: the Great reforms and um. And that the church tsar 831 01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:31,240 Speaker 1: had a heavy handed role in the church. I wouldn't 832 01:08:31,400 --> 01:08:36,360 Speaker 1: say that was the case in in practice. UM, certainly 833 01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:43,320 Speaker 1: that sarum has a very very important role. That Russia 834 01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:48,280 Speaker 1: was an autocracy until nineteen o five. And and the 835 01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:54,400 Speaker 1: the the church UM, the church certainly preaches that the 836 01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:59,840 Speaker 1: that that tsar is that that's that that'sar is anointed 837 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:05,320 Speaker 1: I the church to to to legislate in a moral 838 01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,360 Speaker 1: fashion and to to lead the people as a as 839 01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:12,640 Speaker 1: a as a as a an orthodox leader who is 840 01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:18,679 Speaker 1: advised and by by the church. UM. And and they 841 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:23,040 Speaker 1: they they they also the church also tries to to 842 01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,760 Speaker 1: assert its authority in society by reminding that's are of 843 01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:34,480 Speaker 1: his responsibility to the church that anoints him, uh, to 844 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:41,240 Speaker 1: his responsibility to God and to God's Church. UM. The 845 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,879 Speaker 1: that's are you know, in my own in my own research, 846 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:47,360 Speaker 1: I can see you know, certainly that's our you know, 847 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:52,679 Speaker 1: read over um annual reports from the diocese and would 848 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:56,320 Speaker 1: put comments in the margin, and those comments would be 849 01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:01,160 Speaker 1: followed up on UM. And you know that the tsar 850 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:05,559 Speaker 1: was certainly involved. But I wouldn't describe the csar as 851 01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:12,719 Speaker 1: more than a symbolic kind of role in in the church. UM. Now, 852 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:16,920 Speaker 1: different stars had different views of their role in the 853 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:23,000 Speaker 1: church and UM. And you know, UM, Nicholas the second, 854 01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,960 Speaker 1: the final, the last Tsar of the Empire was a 855 01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:33,520 Speaker 1: very very devout person and he took very seriously this 856 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:38,320 Speaker 1: this this sense that he was anointed by God and 857 01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:44,760 Speaker 1: that he had a divine responsibility. UM. And he he 858 01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:51,439 Speaker 1: also had a very UM. He idealized the Russian people, 859 01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:56,400 Speaker 1: and he he believed that that the people believed that 860 01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,719 Speaker 1: about him and that he had a responsibility of religious 861 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: responsibility to the people. Um. The elite Um was divided. 862 01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:18,559 Speaker 1: I would say, Um, the elite, Uh, there were there 863 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:23,560 Speaker 1: were many members of the I would say that overall 864 01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:31,080 Speaker 1: the Russian nobility was we're faithful orthodox people. UM. That 865 01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:36,680 Speaker 1: Orthodoxy was was an important part of um, of of 866 01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:44,040 Speaker 1: Russian elite life. UM. Now there were certainly, Um, there 867 01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:51,160 Speaker 1: were certainly elements that were were less enthusiastic about the church. 868 01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,280 Speaker 1: The Church was not integrated into elite life the way 869 01:11:55,320 --> 01:12:00,000 Speaker 1: for example, the Anglican Church was in in Britain. Um. 870 01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,840 Speaker 1: Because you know at the Anglican Church, you or or 871 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,519 Speaker 1: even you know before the revolution, the French Church. You know, 872 01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:12,120 Speaker 1: elite family's younger sons might go into the church, whereas 873 01:12:12,160 --> 01:12:17,400 Speaker 1: in in in Russia, Uh, the the elite's younger sons 874 01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,080 Speaker 1: did not go into the church. The church hierarchy came 875 01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:25,719 Speaker 1: out of Uh, we're sons of parish priests basically, um, 876 01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,840 Speaker 1: and so so so we don't have that same kind 877 01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:33,960 Speaker 1: of affinity or connection to the church and um. And 878 01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,960 Speaker 1: I've already mentioned this sort of disdain for um, for 879 01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:47,680 Speaker 1: the church culturally, and and the snobbishness educationally and so on. Um. 880 01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:53,120 Speaker 1: In terms of the popular, the populace, that's another very 881 01:12:53,200 --> 01:13:03,519 Speaker 1: complex question. Um. Um, they they're they're the historians have 882 01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:09,680 Speaker 1: have pointed to a great phenomenon of naive monarchism of 883 01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:14,680 Speaker 1: of ordinary people who who believed that the that the 884 01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:19,479 Speaker 1: government um was the problem and if only they could 885 01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:23,320 Speaker 1: get to the tsar, that'sar was was faithful to the 886 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:27,280 Speaker 1: to the to the to the little guy, and um, 887 01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:30,280 Speaker 1: and that you know, the problem was the bureaucrats in between. 888 01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:37,040 Speaker 1: And UM. It's possible that there was some of that 889 01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:43,000 Speaker 1: on a religious level between from the population, uh, sort 890 01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:45,439 Speaker 1: of thinking that there were problems with the church, but 891 01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:50,920 Speaker 1: that perhaps that's our was was better than that. UM. 892 01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:53,360 Speaker 1: But I don't think we see a lot of that 893 01:13:54,160 --> 01:14:01,480 Speaker 1: UM the church. Certainly, the church certainly pre eached UM, 894 01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, devotion to the Tsar and uh preached a 895 01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,240 Speaker 1: vision of the Tsar as a as a as a 896 01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:13,639 Speaker 1: quasi religious figure. UM. But I have to say, I'm 897 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:18,679 Speaker 1: not I'm not sure what we can concretely say about 898 01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,280 Speaker 1: popular perceptions of the Tsar's role in the church. So 899 01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:27,559 Speaker 1: how important was the decree of religious tolerance that went 900 01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:32,560 Speaker 1: out in nineteen o five. Well, I think it was 901 01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:38,960 Speaker 1: a very important moment. UM. It's uh. So In in 902 01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:43,439 Speaker 1: April of nineteen o five, in the midst of the revolute, 903 01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:49,480 Speaker 1: the the growing revolution of nineteen o five, the the 904 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:54,560 Speaker 1: Tsar signed a decree on on Easter Day UM declaring 905 01:14:55,760 --> 01:15:02,640 Speaker 1: that previously UM that that people who had left Orthodoxy 906 01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,479 Speaker 1: would would would or that it would now be possible 907 01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:12,280 Speaker 1: to leave Orthodoxy UM and join another another faith, and 908 01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:18,360 Speaker 1: allowed for um a legal existence for the old Believers, 909 01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:22,360 Speaker 1: for the Baptists, for the Molocons and Duca Bors, and 910 01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:29,320 Speaker 1: the various religious groups nonconformist religious groups. This was a 911 01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:34,920 Speaker 1: terrible shock to the church. The church felt betrayed by this. 912 01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:40,439 Speaker 1: The church felt that they had um that that this 913 01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:45,040 Speaker 1: was an example of the state over stepping its bounds. 914 01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Um that that that religion was the was the the 915 01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:55,480 Speaker 1: bailey wick of the church, and that the government had 916 01:15:55,479 --> 01:16:01,200 Speaker 1: had interfered um and it uh but it but it 917 01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:07,799 Speaker 1: also spurred the church to a discussion about mission, about 918 01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:16,960 Speaker 1: about religious tolerance, about its position within the state. Um. 919 01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:24,480 Speaker 1: There's uh for for the for the various non orthodox 920 01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:30,520 Speaker 1: religious Christian denominations, this was a period of great flowering 921 01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:36,800 Speaker 1: um picture. They all started magazines and started holding congresses 922 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:42,640 Speaker 1: and and um. Although they were technically not allowed to proselytize, 923 01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:47,400 Speaker 1: they were only allowed to publish for their own people 924 01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:54,360 Speaker 1: and so on. Um. This this really was the beginning 925 01:16:54,520 --> 01:16:59,120 Speaker 1: of a of a different relationship with the with the 926 01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:03,000 Speaker 1: state and a front level of legitimacy for religious difference 927 01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:06,760 Speaker 1: in Russia. The government tries to kind of claw this 928 01:17:07,000 --> 01:17:13,599 Speaker 1: back um uh but but there but there were there 929 01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:18,720 Speaker 1: were long debates in the Dooma, the the the parliament 930 01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:22,160 Speaker 1: that emerged from the in the semi constitutional order after 931 01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:29,160 Speaker 1: nineteen o five, that that that debated how to continue 932 01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:33,280 Speaker 1: to implement and manage religious tolerance. And so I think 933 01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:36,320 Speaker 1: it was very important because it opened up this huge 934 01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:42,599 Speaker 1: and ongoing public conversation about the relationship between the church 935 01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:47,400 Speaker 1: and the state and the church and UH and the 936 01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:57,639 Speaker 1: individual conscience. In the introduction to the book Sacred Stories, 937 01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:03,760 Speaker 1: You're write with Mark Steinberg that writers, artists, and intellectuals 938 01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:09,000 Speaker 1: at this point pursued a nonconformist kind of gods seeking 939 01:18:09,080 --> 01:18:12,000 Speaker 1: often and this isn't every person, but that there was 940 01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:19,519 Speaker 1: a culture of private prayer, of mysticism, interest in spiritualism, theosophy, 941 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:25,719 Speaker 1: Nietzschean philosophy, and more Eastern religions, other idealizations of imagination, feeling, 942 01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,800 Speaker 1: mystical connections. That there was a home for all of 943 01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:34,519 Speaker 1: this in Russian high society and in Russian intellectual society 944 01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:37,360 Speaker 1: at the time. Would you say a little bit about 945 01:18:38,479 --> 01:18:43,240 Speaker 1: what created this space for that kind of religiosity, that 946 01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:49,000 Speaker 1: kind of mode of religious seeking to flourish. Yes, absolutely, 947 01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:51,120 Speaker 1: there was there was a This is a period of 948 01:18:51,160 --> 01:18:57,800 Speaker 1: great of great UH spiritual ferment and and of of 949 01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,760 Speaker 1: of seeking of new paths. Think that there were a 950 01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,840 Speaker 1: number of things going on in Russian intellectual life by 951 01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:09,920 Speaker 1: the early twentieth century that that encouraged this UM. The 952 01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:18,120 Speaker 1: first is um the in a sense um, the the 953 01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:23,840 Speaker 1: Revolution of nineteen o five. It it is, it was 954 01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:31,479 Speaker 1: the it was the culmination of of of a of 955 01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:34,880 Speaker 1: a sort of a movement UM, kind of a liberal 956 01:19:34,960 --> 01:19:42,960 Speaker 1: movement to to UH for constitutionalism, for for transformation of 957 01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:46,519 Speaker 1: the of the state UM. And then there's a period 958 01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:52,120 Speaker 1: of of of disillusionment with the people and disillusionment with 959 01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:55,920 Speaker 1: with the results of that of that revolution of nineteen 960 01:19:55,960 --> 01:20:01,439 Speaker 1: o five, and many intellectuals who had who had been 961 01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:08,640 Speaker 1: Marxists or liberals UM begin to and but especially Marxists, 962 01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:13,519 Speaker 1: begin to turn away from from materialism and they and 963 01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:17,960 Speaker 1: they are drawn to to idealism, They're drawn to to 964 01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:25,479 Speaker 1: UH religion. They are frustrated with the political world, and 965 01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:30,920 Speaker 1: they they look for other other forms of of meaning 966 01:20:31,040 --> 01:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and identity and so on as the as the political 967 01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:40,479 Speaker 1: situation becomes less and less free after nineteen o six 968 01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:46,000 Speaker 1: nineteen o seven. So partly it's that. Partly it's connected 969 01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:52,360 Speaker 1: to broader changes in Russian and and and frankly Pan 970 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:57,480 Speaker 1: European intellectual culture of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. 971 01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:02,160 Speaker 1: The turn from realism in UM, which had been the 972 01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:11,000 Speaker 1: dominant sort of artistic philosophy of in literature and in 973 01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:17,080 Speaker 1: art in the second half of the nineteenth century. UM 974 01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:22,120 Speaker 1: and uh turn towards symbolism. Uh, this this sort of 975 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:30,000 Speaker 1: modernist rejection of of of of realism, and so that 976 01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:38,080 Speaker 1: also encouraged this, this this interest in in mysticism, spiritualism 977 01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:41,400 Speaker 1: and so on. UM. And I think also it's this, 978 01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:45,080 Speaker 1: it's this sense of separateness from me from the Russian 979 01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:49,519 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church that was experienced among a certain love, certain 980 01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:57,720 Speaker 1: element of Russian uh educated society, and that they were 981 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:03,479 Speaker 1: specifically looking to live outside or beyond the Russian Church. 982 01:22:04,080 --> 01:22:06,920 Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah, and you know that there's so I 983 01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:10,960 Speaker 1: think that there's a turn away from there's a turn 984 01:22:11,080 --> 01:22:18,280 Speaker 1: towards spiritual Uh, there's a there's an interest, there's a 985 01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:24,160 Speaker 1: renewed interest across Europe in um the spiritual, the mystical 986 01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:29,879 Speaker 1: um and uh and and this is this is ah, 987 01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:33,800 Speaker 1: this takes these people who uh in some senses are 988 01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:37,920 Speaker 1: detached from the church. UM, this provides them with an 989 01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:45,320 Speaker 1: avenue for exploring this kind of um the spiritual desires 990 01:22:45,400 --> 01:22:53,000 Speaker 1: and and and concerns. Mhm M. So if dissatisfaction with 991 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:57,680 Speaker 1: the established church was part of spurring these kinds of 992 01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:03,599 Speaker 1: religious energies and seeking m how important were kind of 993 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:09,320 Speaker 1: individual mystics and healers in that movement, in that ferment. 994 01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:18,040 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, well, I think there were. I think that 995 01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:26,360 Speaker 1: there was there was huge variety here and there. You know, 996 01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:35,080 Speaker 1: when we talk about popular urban religious ferment, um, there's 997 01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:40,639 Speaker 1: it's different in different classes social classes. Um. There is 998 01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,960 Speaker 1: there is also religious ferment at the you know, among 999 01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:51,840 Speaker 1: the sort of working classes as well. Um. And and 1000 01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:59,280 Speaker 1: certainly there were there there were individuals who um around 1001 01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:06,600 Speaker 1: whom various um, various movements gathered. Some of these, uh, 1002 01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:11,960 Speaker 1: some of these were in the church. UM. So you have, 1003 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:18,519 Speaker 1: for example, um, father John of Cronstat, who was truly 1004 01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:22,760 Speaker 1: the Billy Graham of late Imperial Russia. He was a 1005 01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:27,320 Speaker 1: priest who had a church outside of Petersburg and Craunchtat 1006 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:36,120 Speaker 1: where he emphasized a kind of a charismatic um participatory 1007 01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:41,800 Speaker 1: um uh form of orthodoxy. Um. It had a quite 1008 01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:45,080 Speaker 1: a quite a sort of mystical side. People would travel 1009 01:24:45,400 --> 01:24:49,920 Speaker 1: to his to his parish, they would write to him, 1010 01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:54,120 Speaker 1: they had people would carry posters and cards about him. 1011 01:24:54,360 --> 01:24:58,760 Speaker 1: He was he was a huge religious figure and he 1012 01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:02,680 Speaker 1: was within the church. But then he had groups of 1013 01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:08,960 Speaker 1: followers who who um sort of went beyond and and 1014 01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:13,439 Speaker 1: sort of idealized him and turn him into a sort 1015 01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:17,360 Speaker 1: of a mystical figure that they that they that they 1016 01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:20,880 Speaker 1: admire in and of himself. But you also have, as 1017 01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:26,880 Speaker 1: you say, certainly various individuals who gather groups of people 1018 01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:30,679 Speaker 1: around them, both among the lower classes and the upper classes. 1019 01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:38,920 Speaker 1: Um Uh. I would say that it was not unusual, 1020 01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:47,520 Speaker 1: but that most of this religious revival, both among educated 1021 01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:58,000 Speaker 1: and especially among uneducated people, was basically within the um. 1022 01:25:58,040 --> 01:26:06,479 Speaker 1: The was was basically more inclined to be Evangelical with 1023 01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, Baptist in some sort of way um or 1024 01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:16,640 Speaker 1: or um on the edges of Orthodoxy. Um. So, a 1025 01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:21,520 Speaker 1: popular teacher who doesn't see himself as outside of Orthodoxy, 1026 01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:24,599 Speaker 1: but who gathers a following, and the church is a 1027 01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:28,640 Speaker 1: little nervous about that person because he's not you know, 1028 01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:32,960 Speaker 1: he's not a formal priest or or or monk. But 1029 01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:38,439 Speaker 1: but the people are not perceiving themselves as as as 1030 01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:44,719 Speaker 1: outside of the church. Yeah, yeah, and I would say sorry, 1031 01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,920 Speaker 1: I just to finish another point is that you know, 1032 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:52,400 Speaker 1: like all other churches, the Orthodox Church had trouble keeping 1033 01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:56,439 Speaker 1: up with the growth of of working class suburbs. In cities, 1034 01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,360 Speaker 1: and and so sometimes you know, there's a lack of 1035 01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,720 Speaker 1: available ability of a church right there in the neighborhood, 1036 01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:08,280 Speaker 1: and so people make their own fun you know. Well 1037 01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:10,519 Speaker 1: then yeah, I'll just say. You know, today we think 1038 01:27:10,520 --> 01:27:13,920 Speaker 1: of of Resputin, Gregory Resputin as a kind of singular 1039 01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:17,040 Speaker 1: figure who stands out from history for all the legends 1040 01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:20,400 Speaker 1: that we know about him. But do you have peers 1041 01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:23,600 Speaker 1: in Russian life and rest Russian religious life. Maybe that 1042 01:27:23,720 --> 01:27:26,040 Speaker 1: made him legible to those around him where they would 1043 01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:28,759 Speaker 1: kind of know, oh, this is the kind of person 1044 01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:35,519 Speaker 1: that that is. Well, I would say yes and no. Um. 1045 01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:42,640 Speaker 1: So I think Resputin fits into two familiar categories um 1046 01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:48,320 Speaker 1: sort of Um. The first is the religious traveler, the 1047 01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:54,120 Speaker 1: strai um, the religious wanderer. Um. There was a great 1048 01:27:54,160 --> 01:28:01,480 Speaker 1: tradition uh in Russian life of welcoming pilgrim, of welcoming 1049 01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:09,679 Speaker 1: holy people who traveled to two shrines, who traveled from 1050 01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:16,879 Speaker 1: village to village, living on on donations and and trying 1051 01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:21,599 Speaker 1: to These were people who were religious searchers, who were 1052 01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:26,280 Speaker 1: trying to to become the person that God had made 1053 01:28:26,280 --> 01:28:29,880 Speaker 1: them to be. Um. And and so there was great 1054 01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:36,760 Speaker 1: respect for that sort of religious traveler um a sort 1055 01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:42,560 Speaker 1: of maybe there's three there. Another another category that sometimes 1056 01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:47,960 Speaker 1: overlapped with the religious traveler was the holy fool um. 1057 01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:50,880 Speaker 1: This is someone who is a long there's a long 1058 01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,960 Speaker 1: tradition in in Orthodox culture of the fool for Christ 1059 01:28:55,680 --> 01:29:00,360 Speaker 1: of someone who is um uh we might art as 1060 01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:06,360 Speaker 1: as insane um, someone who lives on the edge of society, 1061 01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:12,000 Speaker 1: who perhaps does not behave according to social norms, who 1062 01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:16,439 Speaker 1: may not wash, or who may you know, um speak 1063 01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:22,840 Speaker 1: in strange ways, who may may behave in an odd way, 1064 01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:27,479 Speaker 1: but who is perceived as as being as being a 1065 01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:32,040 Speaker 1: fool for Christ, as someone who who is there to 1066 01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,680 Speaker 1: sort of test our, our our love, and our and 1067 01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,599 Speaker 1: our tolerance, and to and to tell us the truth 1068 01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:42,200 Speaker 1: that we don't want to hear, because the person is 1069 01:29:42,360 --> 01:29:45,040 Speaker 1: such an outsider that they can say things that others 1070 01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:49,679 Speaker 1: would not could not say. So I see, I think 1071 01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:55,440 Speaker 1: that those are components that might make us putin legible. 1072 01:29:56,040 --> 01:30:01,800 Speaker 1: And then a final component is the traged of the statuts. 1073 01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:08,200 Speaker 1: The statsy were the word means elder and um. The 1074 01:30:08,320 --> 01:30:12,439 Speaker 1: nineteenth century, in addition to a monastic revival, sees a 1075 01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:20,560 Speaker 1: great a great revival of um of of an eldership 1076 01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:27,320 Speaker 1: in the church. And these UM these religious elders were 1077 01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:32,719 Speaker 1: not they tended to be monks or nuns, but mostly 1078 01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:37,800 Speaker 1: monks UM and they but they were not um uh 1079 01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:42,880 Speaker 1: their their their authority was charismatic rather than official. So 1080 01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:47,200 Speaker 1: they were not appointed to be elders, not appointed to 1081 01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:52,720 Speaker 1: be spiritual advisors. But they become recognized by the population 1082 01:30:53,400 --> 01:31:01,080 Speaker 1: as spiritual advisors as as as people who UH could 1083 01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:08,240 Speaker 1: guide people in their individual spiritual searching and um and 1084 01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:15,080 Speaker 1: so there were various monasteries where various UH spiritual elders 1085 01:31:15,560 --> 01:31:21,439 Speaker 1: became famous, and people would travel for great distances to 1086 01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:26,080 Speaker 1: visit these elders and talk to them about their their 1087 01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:32,840 Speaker 1: spiritual journeys, to seek advice, to seek support. UM educated 1088 01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:36,800 Speaker 1: people might write to these spiritual elders. These would be 1089 01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:43,400 Speaker 1: longstanding relationships that could go on for decades between a 1090 01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:48,000 Speaker 1: a believer and A and a and a static's uh 1091 01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:51,920 Speaker 1: one of these um spiritual advisors. But these but they 1092 01:31:51,920 --> 01:31:56,200 Speaker 1: were not official figures and the church had a very 1093 01:31:56,280 --> 01:32:02,200 Speaker 1: sort of UM mixed feeling about them. Again because they 1094 01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:06,120 Speaker 1: have they have an authority that's that's charismatic and hard 1095 01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:14,880 Speaker 1: to control. UM so resputing um fit into some of 1096 01:32:14,920 --> 01:32:19,320 Speaker 1: these modes. And and this is where I think Um 1097 01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:26,240 Speaker 1: the ts are and his spirituality, Nicholas the second spirituality, 1098 01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:34,240 Speaker 1: his his idealization of the common people, and his fundamental 1099 01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:44,439 Speaker 1: disconnection with actual, real ordinary people comes into play because um, 1100 01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, circles around that's our who who welcomed respute 1101 01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:54,000 Speaker 1: and saw him as a status. They saw him as 1102 01:32:54,000 --> 01:32:59,880 Speaker 1: an elder um. But he didn't really have that kind 1103 01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of authority among he within the church. Um. He 1104 01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:13,400 Speaker 1: he did have the charismatic authority in the sense that 1105 01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:16,960 Speaker 1: he was recognized by the czar and by or or 1106 01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:22,960 Speaker 1: by the Sarina and members of the members of their 1107 01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:26,880 Speaker 1: circles as of and of high society as having having 1108 01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:33,599 Speaker 1: a religious um uh sort of eldership. But I think 1109 01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:37,719 Speaker 1: that he would certainly he's certainly not typical of these 1110 01:33:38,160 --> 01:33:43,000 Speaker 1: of these elders in reality. How did the church handle 1111 01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:47,360 Speaker 1: reports of miraculous healing in the nineteen hundreds, maybe this 1112 01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:50,400 Speaker 1: early period the end of the Russian Empire. Were the 1113 01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:54,120 Speaker 1: reports welcomes, where they celebrated, where they investigated, where they 1114 01:33:54,120 --> 01:33:57,680 Speaker 1: treated with skepticism? How did the church handle reports like this? 1115 01:33:58,479 --> 01:34:04,120 Speaker 1: M HM. So the church by the early twentieth century, 1116 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:09,200 Speaker 1: the Church, like the Roman Catholic Church to the west, 1117 01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:16,680 Speaker 1: had a had a very mixed relationship with miraculous healing UM. 1118 01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:23,360 Speaker 1: On one level, UM the church UH preached that miraculous 1119 01:34:23,479 --> 01:34:30,720 Speaker 1: healing was was possible and happened UM and UH and 1120 01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:44,320 Speaker 1: and the church supported UM people's people's desire for religious healing. UM. 1121 01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:49,479 Speaker 1: At the same time, the church was very careful about 1122 01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:57,560 Speaker 1: recognizing UM miraculous healing and had a bureaucratic process for 1123 01:34:58,840 --> 01:35:04,560 Speaker 1: UH invest the gating reports of miraculous healing UH, investigating 1124 01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:10,960 Speaker 1: UH talking finding, going to somebody's home community and finding 1125 01:35:10,960 --> 01:35:17,120 Speaker 1: out about their their their previous illness, and invest interviewing 1126 01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:23,599 Speaker 1: the person who claimed a miraculous healing, interviewing witnesses UM. 1127 01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:29,000 Speaker 1: So there was in fact a very a very complex relationship. Now, 1128 01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:35,400 Speaker 1: the the church had had a number of popular magazines 1129 01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:41,040 Speaker 1: that were aimed at at ordinary people and UH there 1130 01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:49,439 Speaker 1: would be fairly extensive reports about these approved miraculous healings 1131 01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:54,040 Speaker 1: in these magazines. So the church, as I say, UM, 1132 01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:58,599 Speaker 1: was not against them, but the church was very careful 1133 01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:01,960 Speaker 1: about them and had to comply bureaucratic process. And this 1134 01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:05,840 Speaker 1: this meant that UM this. This could could be quite 1135 01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:10,680 Speaker 1: frustrating for an individual who felt that she or he 1136 01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:15,760 Speaker 1: had had a miraculous healing uh, and then found that 1137 01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:22,760 Speaker 1: the church authorities were skeptical about it. UM. So it's 1138 01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,759 Speaker 1: a it's a it's a it's an area of tension 1139 01:36:25,880 --> 01:36:32,519 Speaker 1: I would say, between um, religious communities and the official church. 1140 01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:35,120 Speaker 1: But it's an area of tension where the church and 1141 01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:39,000 Speaker 1: the communities are are fundamentally on the same side in 1142 01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:43,160 Speaker 1: believing in miraculous healing. But but the church needs to 1143 01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:49,080 Speaker 1: be very careful about its authority in terms of sort 1144 01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:55,920 Speaker 1: of what miraculous healings it recognizes. M hm. That's great 1145 01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:01,880 Speaker 1: by way of coming to a club those Um. We've 1146 01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:06,800 Speaker 1: talked about the idea that the church was I love 1147 01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:08,759 Speaker 1: the way you put it and some of you writing 1148 01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:11,600 Speaker 1: that it was a moribund branch of the state bureaucracy, 1149 01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:14,080 Speaker 1: and you've kind of talked about how that's actually not 1150 01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:17,240 Speaker 1: the case. UM. But you do also deal in your 1151 01:37:17,240 --> 01:37:20,720 Speaker 1: writing with this idea that religious factors don't need to 1152 01:37:20,720 --> 01:37:26,240 Speaker 1: be included in general histories, specifically of war or revolution 1153 01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:29,640 Speaker 1: in Russia. Could you spend the last couple maybe a 1154 01:37:29,680 --> 01:37:32,519 Speaker 1: minute or two or five or however long you want 1155 01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:37,800 Speaker 1: to take here and reflect on how important religion was 1156 01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:41,479 Speaker 1: not just in responding to historical changes, but in driving 1157 01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:44,960 Speaker 1: forward what we see as a period of tremendous cultural 1158 01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:49,120 Speaker 1: change at the end of the Russian Empire. Yeah, thank 1159 01:37:49,120 --> 01:37:51,599 Speaker 1: you for the question, because I think this is, um, 1160 01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:55,720 Speaker 1: you know, a very important perspective that historians in the 1161 01:37:55,800 --> 01:38:01,439 Speaker 1: last generation have have have have tried to drive home, 1162 01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:06,000 Speaker 1: which is that that religion is not just a reflection 1163 01:38:06,120 --> 01:38:09,280 Speaker 1: of other more important factors, but that it can be, 1164 01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:15,040 Speaker 1: as you say, a driving for force, uh, an agent 1165 01:38:15,160 --> 01:38:20,680 Speaker 1: of change in societies, and thus a historical factor. UM. 1166 01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:23,479 Speaker 1: And I think that the I think that there's a 1167 01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:26,959 Speaker 1: couple of ways in which I really think that religion 1168 01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:34,160 Speaker 1: needs to be worked into standard narratives of late imperial 1169 01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:40,240 Speaker 1: and revolutionary Russia. The first is that is precisely this whole, 1170 01:38:40,720 --> 01:38:46,440 Speaker 1: this whole uh, the way in which religion was fundamentally 1171 01:38:47,479 --> 01:38:54,920 Speaker 1: and debates about religious difference and religious choice was fundamentally 1172 01:38:55,800 --> 01:39:02,200 Speaker 1: tied into the broader discussions about the individual, about civil society, 1173 01:39:02,600 --> 01:39:11,360 Speaker 1: about about the democracy and socialism in Russian society, elate 1174 01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:16,880 Speaker 1: imperial Russian society, that religion is a place where people 1175 01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:22,639 Speaker 1: are trying out some of these ideas, or where others 1176 01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:27,680 Speaker 1: perceive people who don't who don't necessarily perceive themselves as 1177 01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:32,719 Speaker 1: doing this as trying out questions of of of um 1178 01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:38,200 Speaker 1: new kinds of social organization, about whether Western ideas are 1179 01:39:38,240 --> 01:39:42,519 Speaker 1: suitable for ordinary Russian people, all kinds of ideas that 1180 01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:48,479 Speaker 1: are being worked out through people's individual religious choices UM 1181 01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:53,760 Speaker 1: and and the debate religion is integral to the debates 1182 01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:58,120 Speaker 1: about about the what is what it means to be 1183 01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:02,640 Speaker 1: a Russian Russian nationality Russia and what it means to 1184 01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:07,759 Speaker 1: be a good patriotic Russian, the Russian state and its character. 1185 01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:10,919 Speaker 1: So I think it's fundamental actually to the great debates 1186 01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:15,360 Speaker 1: of the late Imperial period. UM. But if we need 1187 01:40:15,479 --> 01:40:21,600 Speaker 1: proof that religion is um is quite simply a constitutive 1188 01:40:22,040 --> 01:40:26,240 Speaker 1: factor of of of of change in the imperial in 1189 01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:29,720 Speaker 1: the late Imperial and revolutionary period, I think we can 1190 01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:34,200 Speaker 1: look no further than what happened with the collapse of 1191 01:40:34,240 --> 01:40:40,040 Speaker 1: the monarchy in February of nineteen sev UM. The first 1192 01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,240 Speaker 1: point is to say that the church did not stand 1193 01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:49,080 Speaker 1: up for that's our the official church um UH said 1194 01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:57,080 Speaker 1: UM goodbye. When that's our abdicated, and the next morning 1195 01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:01,360 Speaker 1: got to got to work reforming itself and got to 1196 01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:04,920 Speaker 1: work getting on with the things that it wanted to do. 1197 01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:08,080 Speaker 1: And the main thing that the church wanted to do 1198 01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:13,200 Speaker 1: was to call a great Church Council to rethink the 1199 01:41:13,320 --> 01:41:17,440 Speaker 1: relationship between the Church and the state, and the relationships 1200 01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:23,760 Speaker 1: within the church between the bishops and the parish clergy 1201 01:41:23,840 --> 01:41:29,880 Speaker 1: and the lady, and to reorganize the church for the 1202 01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:36,080 Speaker 1: modern world, and so um. Almost immediately after the collapse 1203 01:41:36,120 --> 01:41:39,479 Speaker 1: of the of the Empire, the the the the Church 1204 01:41:39,560 --> 01:41:45,679 Speaker 1: Council was called, and it met in Moscow, um starting 1205 01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,800 Speaker 1: in August of nineteen seventeen, and was was going right 1206 01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:54,880 Speaker 1: through during the revolution of October and into early nineteen eighteen, 1207 01:41:55,680 --> 01:41:59,840 Speaker 1: during the revolutionary days. And but for me, what's so 1208 01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:03,920 Speaker 1: important is to see that in the spring and summer 1209 01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:10,599 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventeen, after this the Council had been called 1210 01:42:11,960 --> 01:42:20,280 Speaker 1: all over the country, the local diocese met to choose 1211 01:42:20,640 --> 01:42:27,839 Speaker 1: their their representatives to the to the council. The bishops 1212 01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:31,920 Speaker 1: had initially thought of a council that would involve just bishops. 1213 01:42:33,320 --> 01:42:36,759 Speaker 1: The parish priests had pushed and then the parish priests 1214 01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:39,840 Speaker 1: were included. The laity had pushed and then the laity 1215 01:42:39,920 --> 01:42:43,320 Speaker 1: were included, and so by this had been talked about 1216 01:42:43,360 --> 01:42:46,519 Speaker 1: for quite a few years before. But but when so 1217 01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:50,080 Speaker 1: in the in the spring of nineteen seventeen, local diocese 1218 01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:55,000 Speaker 1: are choosing their representatives and there is a great revolution 1219 01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:59,160 Speaker 1: that is going on in the church, and people are 1220 01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:04,280 Speaker 1: trans forming the church from below into a democratic organization. 1221 01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:08,679 Speaker 1: There are there are dioceses that that ejected their bishops 1222 01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:14,120 Speaker 1: and voted for bishops, which was not canonical, unheard of. 1223 01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:19,360 Speaker 1: But we can see how how people are living out 1224 01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:24,559 Speaker 1: the implications of that democratic revolution of February nineteen seventeen 1225 01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:29,080 Speaker 1: in their church life, and and that that is in 1226 01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:33,559 Speaker 1: fact their first experience. They're not having elections yet, you know, 1227 01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:37,200 Speaker 1: for the for the Constituent Assembly in the spring of 1228 01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:40,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen. People are are are living this out in 1229 01:43:40,360 --> 01:43:44,600 Speaker 1: their church communities first, uh. And these are people of 1230 01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:48,519 Speaker 1: all social groups who are doing this because the church 1231 01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:52,360 Speaker 1: incorporates all social groups. And so I really think that 1232 01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:57,280 Speaker 1: that the way that the church um is having its 1233 01:43:57,320 --> 01:44:01,559 Speaker 1: own revolution that is part of this utter revolution of 1234 01:44:01,680 --> 01:44:07,840 Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, is really a clear example, a clear evidence 1235 01:44:08,040 --> 01:44:13,040 Speaker 1: of how UH we cannot write the history of UH 1236 01:44:13,360 --> 01:44:17,880 Speaker 1: late Imperial Russia or the Russian Revolution without considering the 1237 01:44:17,960 --> 01:44:23,760 Speaker 1: religious component. Um. And that's just the Orthodox Church. All 1238 01:44:23,800 --> 01:44:30,080 Speaker 1: of these other groups are also similarly active and exploring 1239 01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:36,800 Speaker 1: UH in nineteen seventeen and and UH putting themselves on 1240 01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:40,960 Speaker 1: on the on the choice, the list of choices. Everybody 1241 01:44:41,040 --> 01:44:44,919 Speaker 1: is coming out in nineteen seventeen and offering their answer 1242 01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:49,120 Speaker 1: to how to save Russia, what Russia needs, and all 1243 01:44:49,160 --> 01:44:54,479 Speaker 1: of these religious groups are participating in that conversation. M beautiful, Well, Heather, 1244 01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:57,760 Speaker 1: thank you so much. That's all I have for us. Okay, well, 1245 01:44:57,800 --> 01:45:01,439 Speaker 1: thank you for your great question. That's it for this 1246 01:45:01,479 --> 01:45:05,839 Speaker 1: week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around after this short sponsor 1247 01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:09,240 Speaker 1: break for a preview of what's in store for next week. 1248 01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:18,559 Speaker 1: The political power of nationalism, including its ability to mobilize 1249 01:45:18,600 --> 01:45:22,439 Speaker 1: much stronger armed forces, was evident quite quickly to politicians. UM. 1250 01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:25,080 Speaker 1: And so you have all of these pre national multi 1251 01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:29,280 Speaker 1: ethnic states, the Habsburg Empire, the romanof Dynasty, the Ottoman Empire, 1252 01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:32,720 Speaker 1: all of them are trying to nationalize themselves over the 1253 01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:36,000 Speaker 1: course of the nineteenth century. And so their problem is 1254 01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:38,280 Speaker 1: in a multi ethnic state as all of them are, 1255 01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:40,920 Speaker 1: as Russia certainly is. They either have to figure out 1256 01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,720 Speaker 1: how to fashion a multi ethnic national project, that is, 1257 01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:45,600 Speaker 1: to say, a nation that is not founded on a 1258 01:45:45,640 --> 01:45:51,160 Speaker 1: single ethnicity, or to engage in building ethnic nationalism. In fact, 1259 01:45:51,240 --> 01:46:06,960 Speaker 1: Russia tried to do both. Unobscured was created by me 1260 01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:10,800 Speaker 1: Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams, and 1261 01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:14,759 Speaker 1: Josh Thane in partnership with I Heart Radio, with research 1262 01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:18,759 Speaker 1: by Sam Alberty, writing by Carl Nellis, and original music 1263 01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:23,040 Speaker 1: by Chad Lawson. Learn more about our contributing historians, source 1264 01:46:23,120 --> 01:46:26,360 Speaker 1: materials and links to our other shows over at grimm 1265 01:46:26,439 --> 01:46:31,599 Speaker 1: and mild dot com, slash Unobscured, and as always, thanks 1266 01:46:31,600 --> 01:47:05,120 Speaker 1: for listening. Un