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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how stupp

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Christen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: first lady of the Black preass Ethel Payne. And Caroline,

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Speaker 1: this was personally such a fascinating and also at times

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Speaker 1: horrifying and disconcerting a topic to dig into, partially because

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Speaker 1: you and I were journalism majors in college, that's how

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Speaker 1: we met, but not surprisingly considering all the factors we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about in today's episode, we never heard

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Speaker 1: the name Ethel Paine in any of our j school classes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because by and large, the black press as a whole

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Speaker 1: was pretty much invisible to white readership. So it really

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Speaker 1: ran parallel l to the white press, starting really before

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Speaker 1: the Civil War and petering out in its strength and

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Speaker 1: numbers in the mid sixties and seventies. And as you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: it was invisible to the white population back then. But

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways too, that's still the case

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Speaker 1: today in terms of the history and influence of the

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Speaker 1: black press. I mean, it was so influential in the

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Speaker 1: Civil rights movement even happening, and also in politically enfranchising

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Speaker 1: black communities around the nation and really making them uh

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Speaker 1: political force. And Ethel Payne is one of the shining

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Speaker 1: stars who comes in toward the end of the Black

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Speaker 1: Press is sort of industrial influence. And when she died,

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Speaker 1: just to give you listeners an idea of how influential

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Speaker 1: she was, but at the same time, how much like

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Speaker 1: racism in the United States was so overwhelmingly powerful in

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Speaker 1: the sense of holding people back as well. When she died,

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Speaker 1: a Washington Post editorial noted, had Ethel Pain not been black,

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Speaker 1: she certainly would have been one of the most recognized

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Speaker 1: journalists in American society. Oh, without a doubt. I mean this,

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Speaker 1: this woman was amazing. She is amazing, and her legacy

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Speaker 1: is incredible. But the thing is so few people just

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Speaker 1: in mainstream society know about her and the incredible influence

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Speaker 1: she had over the civil rights movement. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: in today's podcast, we're going to talk about Ethel Pain,

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Speaker 1: of course, but first we want to lay some groundwork

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Speaker 1: to position her within this history of the black press

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Speaker 1: in the United States and focusing in on the women

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Speaker 1: who helped build that. And as we're going through this,

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to keep in mind all of

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Speaker 1: the social movements that were happening and being promoted within

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Speaker 1: these newspapers as well. And I'm talking about suffrage and

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Speaker 1: when leading up to civil rights and like all of

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Speaker 1: all these political issues that we're still talking about so

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Speaker 1: much even today with the Black Lives Matter movement um,

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Speaker 1: and how these black presses were so crucial for enfranchising

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Speaker 1: this people who were otherwise just cut off in very

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Speaker 1: literal ways that we're going to talk about in terms

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Speaker 1: of the media, because it's not like the white press

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Speaker 1: was going to be covering civil rights. It really took

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Speaker 1: people like Ethel Payne pushing to get this stuff covered.

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Speaker 1: So let's start in seven. This is the same year

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Speaker 1: that slavery was abolished in New York State, and you

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Speaker 1: have two freed black men, John Sworm and Samuel Cornish,

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Speaker 1: who launched the weekly paper, Freedom's Journal, And this is

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Speaker 1: the first black owned and operated paper in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and it was started. The motivation behind it it was

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Speaker 1: started to counter the racism of the mainstream press, and

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Speaker 1: Freedom's Journal was the paper of record for the three

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand free blacks living in the North and an

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Speaker 1: advocated abolition, anti lynching, voting rights, political rights, and the

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Speaker 1: possibility of African repatriation as well. So they're talking about

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Speaker 1: all of these issues. And it's it's notable too that

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Speaker 1: it's the paper of record because for much of obviously

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Speaker 1: the you know, the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, white papers

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Speaker 1: wouldn't even cover black obituaries, right, Yeah, that's that that's

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Speaker 1: a huge issue that you see mentioned again and again

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Speaker 1: when you read about the black press and and racism

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Speaker 1: of this era, that the bread and butter of newspapers

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Speaker 1: is essentially the ads, and that includes obituaries. You have

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Speaker 1: to pay to put your obituary in the paper, and

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Speaker 1: so you've got the obituaries and classified and just regular

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Speaker 1: advertisements of black families and and wedding announcements and and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of things like that that white papers just

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Speaker 1: wouldn't run. And you have black newspapers who are not

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Speaker 1: only delivering the news to their communities, but also serving

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Speaker 1: as a way to deliver that information as well. So,

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Speaker 1: jumping back into our timeline, if we hoped to eighteen

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Speaker 1: fifty two, the Fugitive Slave Acts were past a couple

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Speaker 1: of years prior in the United States, and with the

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Speaker 1: Fugitive Slave Acts, it became legal for freed slaves or

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Speaker 1: escaped slaves to be arrested if they cross state lines

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Speaker 1: and sent without any kind of questioning whatsoever back to

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Speaker 1: slave owners. So in eighteen fifty two, Maryanne Shad Carrie,

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Speaker 1: who had emigrated to Canada because of the Fugitive Slave Acts,

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Speaker 1: became a spokesperson and editor of the pro immigration Provincial Freeman,

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Speaker 1: encouraging other African Americans to high tail it up north. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just briefly, Marianne Shad Carry, if you're not familiar

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Speaker 1: with her, is an incredible person. She was the first

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Speaker 1: woman at Howard University Law School, but she couldn't graduate

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Speaker 1: because Washington d C. Did not admit women to the bar,

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Speaker 1: so she had to go back ten years later and

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Speaker 1: get her degree at the age of sixty. So just

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Speaker 1: keep that in mind. She's an impressive lady. She was

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Speaker 1: also a lady ahead of her time. I mean, she

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Speaker 1: argued for suffrage rights under the fourteenth Amendment and linked

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Speaker 1: the importance of women's suffrage to female labor and entrepreneurship. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and it's with issues like that, the female

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Speaker 1: labor and entrepreneurship, where we start to see how white

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Speaker 1: suffrage and all of the conversations that we've had around

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Speaker 1: that in past episodes overlooks issues relevant to women of

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Speaker 1: color because labor is huge for women of color and

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Speaker 1: is a bigger issue than it is for often wider,

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Speaker 1: wealthier women involved in the suffrage movement. But when we

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Speaker 1: get to eighteen sixty, at the start of the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: they were already more than forty black owned newspapers throughout

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Speaker 1: the United States, and thirty years later, in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: suffrage and abolition leader Josephine st. Pierre Ruffin joins those ranks.

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Speaker 1: She launches the Women's Era, which is the first newspaper

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Speaker 1: published and written by and four black women, and four

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Speaker 1: years later in eighteen ninety four, by the way, Ruffin

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Speaker 1: would go on to organize the Women's Era Club, which

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Speaker 1: was a group specifically meant to advocate on behalf of

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Speaker 1: black women and to offer a little broader context to

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Speaker 1: the importance of that this was happening. Post suffrage movement

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Speaker 1: is um after black men were enfranchised and given the

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Speaker 1: right to vote, but female suffrage was not granted. So

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Speaker 1: you have that split where Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: Katie Stanton start to align themselves with the more racist

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Speaker 1: supporters who are not so keen on integrating women of

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Speaker 1: color in their cause. And then you have in response,

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Speaker 1: women like Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin and others starting the

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Speaker 1: women's the Black Women's club movement, organizing within their communities

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Speaker 1: for community uplift, basically saying, listen, if you if you all,

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Speaker 1: y'all are going to help us, We're gonna help ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing this. And someone else who was highly

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Speaker 1: instrumental in that movement was Ida be for Badass Wells,

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Speaker 1: who was best known as an anti lynching journalist um In.

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Speaker 1: She kicked off her anti lynching campaign after her paper,

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Speaker 1: The Memphis Free Speech closed following a white mob vandalizing

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Speaker 1: it in retaliation for an article that she wrote denouncing

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Speaker 1: the lynching of three black Memphis men, and she and

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Speaker 1: Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin would later come together through the

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Speaker 1: Women's Club movement because I B. Wells would like go

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Speaker 1: around and visit all these women's clubs and help start them,

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Speaker 1: and they would later help form a larger suffrage organization

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Speaker 1: focus solely on women of color, and in nineteen o

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Speaker 1: five we get a newspaper that we will revisit more

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Speaker 1: a little bit later, but we get the Chicago Defender,

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Speaker 1: and it really urged blacks in the South to move

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Speaker 1: north as part of what's called the Great Migration, and

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Speaker 1: it was massively influential in the Civil rights movement. So then,

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Speaker 1: from nineteen twelve to nineteen fifty one, a woman named

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Speaker 1: Charlotta Bass serves as the publisher of The californ An Eagle, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, it was formerly known as the Owl.

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Speaker 1: And why would you change the name of a newspaper

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Speaker 1: from the Owl to a California Eagle. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: the owl. That's cool, that's a I guess I like owls. Well,

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Speaker 1: owls Owls can turn their heads really far and see things,

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Speaker 1: which is great. And but eagles are like, oh, we're

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Speaker 1: I'm an aggressive eagle. I've got my talent is going

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Speaker 1: to rip up this newspaper. See I don't, it's not

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Speaker 1: meshing in my brain. Um. But back to baths. She

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Speaker 1: used the paper as a platform to denounce racist imagery

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Speaker 1: in the media. She particularly attacked birth of a Nation.

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Speaker 1: They also attacked issues that sound very familiar today, police brutality,

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Speaker 1: discriminatory hiring practices, housing discrimination even in the face of

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Speaker 1: death threats and FBI surveillance. Yeah, I mean you could

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Speaker 1: be talking about the Black Lives Matter movement in that

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely still relevant. But fun fat uh. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty two, so the year after she stepped down as

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Speaker 1: publisher of The Eagle, she became the first African American

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Speaker 1: woman to run for national office as the vice presidential

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Speaker 1: candidate on the Progressive Party ticket. And I also wanted

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Speaker 1: to mention how in nine five black paper, the Chicago

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Speaker 1: B was started and it was on staffed by women.

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Speaker 1: I don't have any deeper information on that, but I

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Speaker 1: saw that and was like, oh, we should mention that

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Speaker 1: right on Chicago B. Now one of our really smart

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Speaker 1: listeners is going to write in I predict and tell

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Speaker 1: us about the Chicago B. And I'm already looking forward

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Speaker 1: to reading that letter in our listener mail segment in

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Speaker 1: the future. Um. And just three years later, in the

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Speaker 1: Atlanta Daily World becomes the most successful black paper in

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Speaker 1: the country, and it's the only one to publish daily

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Speaker 1: instead of weekly. Yeah, and the weekly publication of most

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Speaker 1: of these black newspapers is going to come back into

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Speaker 1: play when we move into talking about the Washington press corps.

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Speaker 1: But we want to re emphasize to why these papers

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Speaker 1: mattered so much. I mean, we talked about how the

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Speaker 1: white press just completely disregarded Black communities, obviously perpetuating racist

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Speaker 1: myths about the black communities, Um even refusing again to

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Speaker 1: publish obituaries. But the thing was this, these were such

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Speaker 1: crucial resources, sharing uplifting stories about the black community and

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Speaker 1: emerging stars like Lena horne Um. They also pointed readers

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Speaker 1: to employers who didn't discriminate. It engaged these communities politically

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Speaker 1: and expose them to the writing of leading intellects like Langston, Hughes,

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Speaker 1: Marcus Garvey, and Zorneil Hurston. And there's been scholarship on

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Speaker 1: how the black press in that way, speaking of like

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Speaker 1: Lengths and Hughes, Ornel Hurston laid the groundwork for the

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Speaker 1: Harlem Renaissance as well. Yeah, And as you might imagine,

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Speaker 1: we you provide a community with resources that they need

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Speaker 1: and enjoy that can translate into big business for the

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Speaker 1: publishers who are running those papers. For instance, Chicago Defenders

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Speaker 1: publisher Robert s Abbott became one of America's first black millionaires.

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Speaker 1: So by the time we get to the World War

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Speaker 1: two era, the black press is up and running. It

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Speaker 1: is powerful within these black communities, but it's still operating

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Speaker 1: separately from the quote unquote mainstream read white media. And

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Speaker 1: that was the case even in the heart of Washington. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy, although not terribly surprising to read about how

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Speaker 1: even in the press core like of the White House

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Speaker 1: Press COREP or the Capital Press Corps, black reporters faced

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Speaker 1: not even discrimination, yes, discrimination, but they just were barred

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Speaker 1: from in rein participation. Uh, the white White House and

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Speaker 1: congressional reporters had very little interest in inviting their black

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Speaker 1: peers into the conversations that were happening. I mean, they

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Speaker 1: just weren't prioritizing any type of civil rights issues whatsoever. Um,

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Speaker 1: the local black papers were basically forced to rely on

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Speaker 1: two wire services, the Associated Negro Press and the National

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Speaker 1: Negro Publishers Association. But for a lot of other information

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Speaker 1: they sort of had to get it almost second hand.

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Speaker 1: A lot of black papers would get their news from

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Speaker 1: white newspapers and then spin it to then be relevant

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Speaker 1: to their audiences. Yeah. I mean, because this is even

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Speaker 1: before obviously the civil rights really starts picking up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: but there were new deal policies happening that they were

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Speaker 1: otherwise uninformed about, like any any political development. Imagine not

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Speaker 1: having access to that information. We have it's so instantaneously

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Speaker 1: now thanks to Twitter. But in this era, this entire

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Speaker 1: community was at least intentionally like and strategically cut off.

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Speaker 1: And we should say too that this background info is

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Speaker 1: coming from a book reporting from Washington, A History on

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Speaker 1: the Washington Press Corps. And here's the thing. The White

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Speaker 1: House Correspondence Association, you know, that group that throws those

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Speaker 1: hilarious dinners every year, um it, and the presidential and

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Speaker 1: congressional press conferences it controlled remained all white until nineteen

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Speaker 1: But that was only because f drs Press secretary need

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Speaker 1: a black policeman in the groin, and because of the

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Speaker 1: fallout with that, FDR was like, okay, okay, okay, we

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Speaker 1: gotta we gotta open things up a little bit, let's

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Speaker 1: let's integrate. So it was the press, not the politicians,

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Speaker 1: keeping members of the black press out of uh presidential

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Speaker 1: and congressional press conferences. And along those same lines, the

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Speaker 1: National Press Club only admitted white men. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we mentioned that a lot of times. Black papers and

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Speaker 1: news agencies couldn't even get access to press releases. They

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Speaker 1: relied on other news outlets to sort of hear what

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Speaker 1: was going on in Washington, but they also relied on

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Speaker 1: word of mouth. Secretaries and custodians around the Capitol would

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Speaker 1: often share what they overheard, even you know, snag a

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Speaker 1: document or two off of the mimeograph machine that means

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Speaker 1: copy machine, you young people. UM and journals would also

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Speaker 1: consult the quote unquote black cabinet of the highest ranking

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Speaker 1: black officials at the time, including Mary McLeod, Bethune and

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Speaker 1: In four the Atlanta Daily worlds Henry McAlpin becomes the

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Speaker 1: first black journalist to cover a White House press conference,

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Speaker 1: but he was still denied admission to the White House

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Speaker 1: Correspondence Association. It wasn't until nineteen fifty one that Louis

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Speaker 1: Laudier became the first black reporter admitted to the Correspondence Association,

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Speaker 1: and ps that organization remains overwhelmingly white, as only seven

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Speaker 1: of the fifty three regular correspondents were journalists of color.

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Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported, yeah, well, Laudier was considered a

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Speaker 1: pretty safe choice to start this integration idea because he

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Speaker 1: was already a Department of Justice stenographer who was a

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Speaker 1: freelance journalist, and so um people in the government were like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: he's going to be pliable. We can just get him

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Speaker 1: to do whatever we want. And so in their minds,

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Speaker 1: that was a lot safer than getting maybe an ethel

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Speaker 1: Pain for instance, who might be more of a firecracker. So,

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Speaker 1: considering such an outright hostile and racist environment, how on

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Speaker 1: earth could a woman of color break through the ranks.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that when we come right

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Speaker 1: back from a quick break. Listen, people, you need to

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Speaker 1: know how to cook at some point in your life.

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Speaker 1: knowing your way around the kitchen, but you get to

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Speaker 1: cook healthier meals and save money. Instead of ordering all

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Speaker 1: of that expensive takeout for less than ten dollars a meal,

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Speaker 1: Blue Apron delivers all the fresh ingredients you need to

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Speaker 1: create home cooked meals. Just follow the easy, step by

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Speaker 1: step instructions that come with pictures for people like me

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Speaker 1: who are visual learners. Plus, each meal can be prepared

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Speaker 1: in forty minutes or less, no overwhelming trips to the

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Speaker 1: grocery store, and no more sad takeout. No matter your

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Speaker 1: dietary preferences, Blue Apron makes it a breeze to discover

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Speaker 1: That's blue Apron dot com slash mom stuff. Blue Apron

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00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 1: a better way to cook. So we keep teasing you

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Speaker 1: about Ethel Pain, like when are we When are we

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Speaker 1: going to dig in to old Ethel here, We're just not.

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna keep saying her name and then it's

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Speaker 1: gonna hint at it finger well, So we will talk

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Speaker 1: about Ethel. We have so much to talk about, but

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Speaker 1: first we have to talk about a predecessor. So Ethel

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Speaker 1: was almost the f black female reporter in the White

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Speaker 1: House Press Corps, but her work builds right on top

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Speaker 1: of that of one Alice Done again and Alice Donagan

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Speaker 1: herself is a pretty impressive figure with a lot of

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Speaker 1: first She was the first black female journalist accredited to

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Speaker 1: the House and Senate press galleries, the White House, and

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. And she was the first to travel

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Speaker 1: with the US President, that president being Harry Truman during

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Speaker 1: his ninety whistle stop tour of eighteen western states. And

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Speaker 1: I love the story where she was traveling. She was

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Speaker 1: the only black woman, but there were also two black

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Speaker 1: male reporters traveling with this whistle stop tour, and Truman

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Speaker 1: makes an unscheduled stop I think in Montana or Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: one of those states. And uh, I think it was

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Speaker 1: at night. It wasn't planned. She gets off the train

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Speaker 1: because one of her colleagues back home had been like,

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Speaker 1: you always need to get off the train. Cover every thing,

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Speaker 1: keep your ear to the ground at all times. But

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Speaker 1: her two uh, black male colleagues who had no interest

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Speaker 1: in getting off the train. But it just so happened

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Speaker 1: that at this unscheduled stop. This was Truman's first time

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Speaker 1: mentioning the importance of civil rights to America, and she

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Speaker 1: got the story, but at the risk of losing her

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Speaker 1: spot and the press Corps, she refused to share her

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Speaker 1: story with the rest of the pool, particularly her two

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Speaker 1: black male colleagues, because she was like, oh, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to get off the train. Well, then, I clearly,

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Speaker 1: as a woman, have had to work harder than you

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Speaker 1: I am. She she has this great quote about, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, women have to work harder because they're not

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Speaker 1: as secure in their positions and they have to prove themselves,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously something we still talk about on the

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Speaker 1: podcast today. Um She's like, well, no, I'm I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna write this story and submit it. Well, and one

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Speaker 1: of those dudes, one of her colleagues, was Louis Laudier,

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Speaker 1: and he was not helpful to her either. He was

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Speaker 1: outright rude about her and Ethel Payne when Ethel Payne

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Speaker 1: um steps onto the scene, and they were outright competitors. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: for a little more about Dunnigan, though, she became the

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Speaker 1: Washington bureau chief for the Associated Negro Press starting in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seven, and she was really the link between the

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Speaker 1: African American community and those early civil rights related issues

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Speaker 1: developing in Washington. Like you said, I mean, she reported

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Speaker 1: on Harry S. Truman mentioning this issue for the very

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Speaker 1: first time. But even just getting there, getting on that

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Speaker 1: train ending up in wherever it was, Wyoming or Montana

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Speaker 1: was not easy, and she recounts her experience in her

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four autobiography Alone Atop the Hill in case

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Speaker 1: you're looking for some new reading material, and her account

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Speaker 1: of just initially trying to get into the press gallery

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Speaker 1: is exhausting. It is, but I mean she was. She

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Speaker 1: was relentless as well she should be. I I admire

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Speaker 1: people who are relentless. Um, it is worth mentioning though

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Speaker 1: the subcurrent of what's going on here. Yes, she was

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Speaker 1: the Washington bara chief for the A and P. However,

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Speaker 1: this woman barely made enough to live on like she

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Speaker 1: and Ethel Paine and many many others had to work

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Speaker 1: second jobs if they wanted to pursue their passion of journalism.

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Speaker 1: So Dunnigan was initially thwarted from getting accreditation to access

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Speaker 1: the Capital Press Gallery because they said only daily reporters

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Speaker 1: were allowed. This was strategic people, because so many black

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Speaker 1: papers were either weekly or monthly, and so she's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. She saw admittance to the Periodicals gallery,

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Speaker 1: but they wouldn't amit her because she didn't write for

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Speaker 1: a magazine convenient Well, and all of this happened after

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Speaker 1: she submitted her application to get access to the press gallery,

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Speaker 1: didn't hear anything, didn't hear anything. Finally started checking in

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Speaker 1: and she knew she was like, I had to be

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Speaker 1: annoying at that point, and she pestered them to the

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Speaker 1: point that they finally were like, ah, so sorry, you

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Speaker 1: work for a weekly and that's too bad. So then

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Speaker 1: when she goes back around a second time to periodicals

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Speaker 1: like mm hmm, sorry, it's not a magazine. Well, so

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Speaker 1: finally the Senate Rules Committee has to hold a hearing

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Speaker 1: and they ordered news agency reporters to be admitted. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so she gets in that way. I mean, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: specifically like you have to let black reporters in there,

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Speaker 1: like just you know, news agency wink wink um. But

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Speaker 1: she definitely did not get any help from fellow female

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Speaker 1: journe ls in Washington at the time, as the Women's

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Speaker 1: National Press Club was whites only. Well, yeah, and they

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Speaker 1: they had her over for dinner at one point, and

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Speaker 1: she said that she was so intimidated that she didn't

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Speaker 1: speak the whole time, and so they didn't end up

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Speaker 1: inviting her to be a member. Seven years later, though

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Speaker 1: once she had established herself and her name and her writing,

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Speaker 1: they did invite her to be a member, and she

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Speaker 1: basically talks about how, like, yeah, I knew it was bs,

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Speaker 1: Like this is crap. They wouldn't they wouldn't let me

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Speaker 1: in seven years ago, but suddenly they're like, oh okay,

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Speaker 1: And she writes about how in her autobiography she writes

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Speaker 1: about how it, for some reason took seven years for

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Speaker 1: those liberal white women to finally get around to deciding

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Speaker 1: that having a black woman, one black woman in their

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Speaker 1: ranks was okay. That was the thing that kind of

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Speaker 1: astonishing me over and over again reading this history of

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Speaker 1: the Washington press. Schools are partially, you know, because of

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Speaker 1: our journalism training and my own assumption that like, journalists

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Speaker 1: are more liberal, Right, they're more open minded. You have

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Speaker 1: to be objective, that's the whole thing. Right. No, No,

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Speaker 1: they were incredibly racist and exclusive back then, just like

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Speaker 1: so many other people. No, I mean, yeah, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: not surprised whatsoever. I mean, I worked at an incredibly

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Speaker 1: conservative newspaper for four years, and reading the editorial pages,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I can't believe. So, No, I'm not surprised. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's very true. I mean, and I know that, of

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Speaker 1: course they were like a bazillion conservative pundits, and there's

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Speaker 1: an entire news network devoted to that kind of news.

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Speaker 1: But I guess, Caroline, I'm just a little starry at

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Speaker 1: I'm a little starry at a cub reporter hoping everybody's

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Speaker 1: practicing some empathy. So hopping back into our timeline, it's

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00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: Alice done again is making her name with so much

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Speaker 1: dogged persistence in Washington and where selful pain? Was she

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Speaker 1: up to? Ethel's on our way to Japan? Wait? What? Yeah? Um,

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00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: I guess we should probably back up, okay and explain

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Speaker 1: we've teased you. We've hinted at Ethel's incredible life long

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Speaker 1: enough and they're like, wait, what she when she's in Japan?

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00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: What's happening? Okay? So backing up, way up. In nineteen eleven,

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Speaker 1: Ethel Paine is born in Chicago. She's the granddaughter of slaves.

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Speaker 1: Her dad works as a pullman porter, but he dies

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Speaker 1: when she's just twelve years old from a disease he

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Speaker 1: contracted from handling dirty laundry on one of the trains,

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Speaker 1: and up until this point, her mom had been a

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Speaker 1: full time stay at home mom until her father's death,

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Speaker 1: at which point her mom when became a Latin teacher,

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Speaker 1: like you do just teaching Latin. Uh. But Ethel was

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Speaker 1: really inspired by a lot of what her mother taught her.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of studying the Bible, but also

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Speaker 1: a lot of studying literature. There's some Louisa may Alcott

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00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: thrown in there. There's all sorts of reading that really

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00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: inspired Ethel to be a word person. And she actually

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Speaker 1: though dreamed of becoming a civil rights lawyer who would

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Speaker 1: work on behalf of the poor. But and this should

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Speaker 1: sound familiar to you if you've a studied history or

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00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: be listened to our episode on Polly Murray. But Uh,

428
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: Payne was denied admission to law school because of her race.

429
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: So fast forward to Ethel Payne is hanging out mining

430
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: her own business and she encounters outside of a tavern

431
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: a group of twenty five black men being arrested by

432
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: white police officers and wanting to know what's going on.

433
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: She goes up to one of the police officers and

434
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: it's like, Hey, what what happened? Why are these men

435
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: getting arrested, and how does he respond billy clubs her. Well, yeah,

436
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: don't forget. He first cusses her out right and then yeah,

437
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: this results in him hitting her. So she gets hauled

438
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,959
Speaker 1: off to jail along with all the all of these

439
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: dudes who are getting arrested. Um. She is released, but

440
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 1: she basically says no and threatens the police that she

441
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: is going to go to the press to tell them

442
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 1: about all of his brutality unless they release all of

443
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: the dudes along with her. And they do. Yeah. Yeah,

444
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: she succeeded. Um, and not surprisingly, a year later she's like,

445
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to peace out. Um. So

446
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: she leaves home and her fiancee, who both move Ethel

447
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: to become a hostess in Japan for the Army Special

448
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: Services Club UM, organizing recreational activities and entertainment for African

449
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: American troops because keep in mind the military is segregated

450
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: at this time. Now keep in mind, you know, Ethel's

451
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: a person with these h dreams, right, like a huge

452
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,479
Speaker 1: personality too. I mean, she's not afraid to stand up

453
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: even to the police, right. But she had been working

454
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: as a library clerk and was totally bored and so

455
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: that's when she like she's bored in her job. She's

456
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: got these big dreams and a big personality. She's experienced

457
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: police brutality and is like, it's time to go to Japan,

458
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: as you do like you do. So in ninety though,

459
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: a reporter from the Chicago Defender guy named Alex Wilson

460
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: stops by Japan on his way to report on the

461
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: Korean War and they hit it off and she ends

462
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: up showing Wilson her diary and he's like, this is sensational.

463
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: This is the kind of information that we really need

464
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: to be reporting back to the black community in the

465
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 1: United States. So he asks her and she grants her

466
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: permission for him to take the diary back to Chicago,

467
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: and he ends up turning the diary entries into a

468
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: front page news story about the experiences a black soldiers

469
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: stationed in Japan. And it is not a pretty picture

470
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: that she paints. She highlights not only segregation but also

471
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: this huge issue of black soldiers fathering children with Japanese

472
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: women and then of course leaving um. And the story

473
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: is huge, so huge in fact that in one the

474
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: Chicago Defender is like, listen, you're a good writer. You

475
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: have an eye for news, obviously, why don't you come

476
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: back from Japan? Will give you a full time job. Yeah,

477
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: And so she looks at this opportunity and basically says,

478
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to change

479
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: the world that way, but that's not going to happen.

480
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: Here's another way that I can fulfill what I perceive

481
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: as my duty, my desire to change the world. Pin

482
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: instead of gavel. The pin as mightier than the gavel,

483
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, or or a lawyer's briefcase. The pen

484
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: is mightier than a matlock suit? Is that it? Yes,

485
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: that's actually perfect um. And keep in mind that The

486
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: Chicago Defender was actually banned in a lot of towns

487
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: because its motto was that American race prejudice must be destroyed.

488
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's a basic, important statement,

489
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: but that was dangerous to a lot of people. So

490
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: because it was banned in so many areas. You have

491
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: those pullman porters who would stash copies in their lockers

492
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: and drop them at barbershops and churches along their Southern roots.

493
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: And her dad had been one of those people when

494
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: he worked as a porter. He had been one of

495
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: the people stashing those copies of the newspaper in his

496
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: locker so that he could distribute them full circle legacy. Well,

497
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: and speaking of mottos too, I would like to note

498
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: that the Chicago Defender's motto well compliments her personal motto

499
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: that she borrowed from Frederick Douglas magic sate, agitate, agitate.

500
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's no there's no removing her personal views

501
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 1: from her work. And I mean this is critical to

502
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: to who she is and what she accomplished. I mean,

503
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: you know, people talk about agenda journalism and advocacy journalism,

504
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: and Ethel Payne denied that she had a bias, but

505
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: that whatever bias she had, it was for the truth.

506
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: And I think that work like hers is still incredibly important.

507
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Yeah, and I

508
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: quickly want to mention too, that she's hopping into her

509
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: job at the Chicago Defender untrained, so I think this

510
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: is around the time she starts taking some classes at

511
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: Northwestern's Middle School of Journalism. So any Northwestern alums or

512
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: students listening, shout out to y'all. I would have loved

513
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: to have been in a class with Ethel Payne. Can

514
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: you imagine, Well, you're probably like, well, I'm sure it

515
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: would have been cool. Why do you say that? And

516
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 1: it's because she's a freaking rabble rouser, which we'll get

517
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: into more like if you can't already tell like, we're

518
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: really excited about Ethel Payne. She's kind of a journalism

519
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: hero um. But so after starting her full time job

520
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: at the Chicago Defenders, she quickly makes her mark in In

521
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty two, her story on the adoption crisis

522
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: among African American babies won her an Illinois Press Association

523
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: Award for Best News Stories, and she also quickly established

524
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: her complete disinterest in fluff pieces. Don't assign Ethel a

525
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: feature story on because even when she was a sign

526
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: of fluff piece, she would still find the hard news

527
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 1: angle in it and find a way to insert her

528
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: views on the topic. And that's probably why by ninety three,

529
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: her press compatriots or for dour as a newsman's newsman

530
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, a comedians comedian. She was

531
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: a newsman's newsman. Now, Sensing her ambition and also that

532
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: inst anked for hard news, the Chicago Defender needed someone

533
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: to take over in its Washington Bureau. So they're like,

534
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: Ethel head on out to d C. It's only gonna

535
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: be you. You will be a one person bureau, but

536
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: you can do it. And they I love the fanfare

537
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: with which the Chicago Defender announced Ethel going to Washington

538
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 1: on the front page. The headline read, Miss Ethel Payne,

539
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: one of the Chicago Defenders Cracked news and feature writers,

540
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 1: has been assigned to Washington. Q celebratory trumpets. Yeah. And

541
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: she would later go on to talk about how having

542
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 1: a seat at the table, so to speak, really forced

543
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: the mainstream white media too not only hear about and acknowledge,

544
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: but also report on issues of civil rights that they

545
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: were completely ignoring. Um. One of the first things that

546
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 1: she reported on was the fact that the Howard University

547
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 1: choir had been diverted away from performing during the Republican's

548
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: annual Lincoln Day dinner, and of course the white press

549
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: did not report this. There were a couple of choirs,

550
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: one was from Emory, one was from I think it

551
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: was Duke University Duke, and so Howard was the third. Well,

552
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: the two white choirs get through just fine, but the

553
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 1: Howard bus is diverted. A couple of times because they

554
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: want them to go into a special back entrance. And

555
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: this outraged pain and so she reported on it, forcing

556
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: other people to finally recognize like, Okay, well, I guess

557
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: there are issues that we are ignoring. Yeah, and this

558
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 1: is Eisenhower's term that she is stepping into and right

559
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: on the heels of the Howard University incident during all

560
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: of this, uh Lincoln Day celebrating that the Republican Party

561
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: was doing. She was out rage at Sherman Adams, who

562
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: was chief of staff, because he apparently specially requested for

563
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: a black face performer at another Lincoln event, and she

564
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: sent him a telegram. I mean, this woman has like

565
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: barely been in d C, like a week, and she

566
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: is sending a telegram to the president's chief of staff

567
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: basically saying, listen, there could have been a better way

568
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: to represent black people on quote such an occasion, more

569
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: dignified and in keeping with the progress of the race.

570
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: I mean she clapped back, well, I mean you also

571
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind what she herself was facing

572
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: while she was walking the streets of Washington, d C.

573
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: I mean, she had to deal with cabs not picking

574
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: her up, not being admitted to restaurants. UM. When she

575
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: was traveling to cover story, she had to stay in

576
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,879
Speaker 1: private homes instead of hotels, particularly in the South. There's

577
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: one story UM where she was staying in a white

578
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: professors house and rocks were threatened through the window. The

579
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: professor ended up getting evicted from his own apartment UM,

580
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: simply because he allowed her to stay there. And she

581
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: wasn't afraid to speak or rather write her mind about

582
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: the civil rights issues that were really starting to bubble

583
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: up at the time. I mean, when Brown versus the

584
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: Board of Education Supreme Court decision was handed down in

585
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, she wasn't kicking up her heels about it.

586
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: She was distraught and called it a poor compromise because

587
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: they did not stipulate a timeline for integration. So she

588
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: was like, there's no timeline, and so this is gonna

589
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: be a mess because we're gonna have to go state

590
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: by state now, and protests will happen. I mean, And

591
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: she predicted all of this stuff that did happen. And

592
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: she also had this precinct instinct about the civil rights

593
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: movement as it was developing. She was one of the

594
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 1: first to spotlight the significance of Rosa Parks and even MLK.

595
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 1: She was like, there's this preacher in Atlanta, used twenty

596
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: seven years old, and watch out for him. Well. Yeah,

597
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: she was one of the first to note how the clergy,

598
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: the black clergy, were sort of leading the way in

599
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: this civil rights movement. And she was also though critical

600
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 1: of MLK. She's not like she gave him a free pass,

601
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: but she did voice concerns about airing laundry in a

602
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: way that would attract the white press's attention. She wanted

603
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: to definitely support leaders like MLK, and she wanted him

604
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: to succeed, but she also wanted to do her due

605
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: diligence of being a critical reporter who could analyze the situation.

606
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: But there was that concern that if the white press

607
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: catches wind of any criticisms, they might just run with

608
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: it and not give him a seat at the table.

609
00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: And that's something too, that's so so fascinating about the

610
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: role of the black press at the time, and particularly

611
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: the handful of them who were in Washington, because there

612
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: were all these separate conversations that would be happening within

613
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: these black newspapers. I mean, that was their functions since

614
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: what eighteen seven. But like you said, it's like they

615
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: could speak but not too loudly so as to not

616
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: attract too much attention. We'll we'll come back to that

617
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: in just a second. But we should know that she

618
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: probably covered and participated and more civil rights events than

619
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: any other journalist at the time. I mean, she she

620
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: was there for the events that were happening in nine

621
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 1: fifty six. She was there for the Montgomery bus boycott

622
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: and the desegregation efforts at the University of Alabama. In

623
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: ninety seven, she was in Arkansas for the Little Rock

624
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: nine and I think that's where she was staying in

625
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: the professor's home and got the rock throne in the window.

626
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,280
Speaker 1: Fast War in nineteen sixty three, and she hopping into

627
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: the activism herself. She demonstrated in Birmingham, she participated in

628
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: the March on Washington, and two years later she marched

629
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: from Selma to Montgomery to demand voting rights. Yeah, and

630
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 1: she unintentionally question mark made civil rights and national issue

631
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: when during a press conference with President Eisenhower, she asked

632
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: when he would ban segregation in interstate travel, and he

633
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: was none too pleased. I mean, this was not just

634
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 1: a black press issue. Everybody reported on how angry Eisenhower

635
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 1: got and how he used clipped tones and clipped words

636
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: with her. Uh. This effectively moved civil rights into the

637
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: national news cycle, and it drove Eisenhower. On a more

638
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: personal note to Boycott ethel Payne, I think in the

639
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: rest of her time, the couple of years that she

640
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 1: was still in the press corps, he just answered maybe

641
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: two of her questions in her remaining time. Yeah, And

642
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 1: I believe that happened in when he when he got

643
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: his feathers all ruffled. And when I was first reading this,

644
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, so what what Why did him

645
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: getting annoyed set off national headlines and like the Washington

646
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: Post and all of these bigger newspapers. And then I

647
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: read his exact response and was like, oh, so, in

648
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: response to her question of just like, okay, when are

649
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: you gonna like, uh, you know, enforced desegregation of interstate travel,

650
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: he said, quote, the administration is trying to do what

651
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: it thinks and believes to be decent and just in

652
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,919
Speaker 1: this country. Okay, following you, ike, But then he says,

653
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: and it's not in the effort to support any particular

654
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: or special group of any kind who all right, so

655
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: you are framing the African American community as a special

656
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,959
Speaker 1: interest group, and with that, civil rights becomes a national conversation.

657
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: It's not just happening within the Black press anymore. It's

658
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: funny though, because both Ethel Payne and Alice Dunagan had

659
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: annoyed the president at these press conferences with these these

660
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: gal reporters, as their colleague Lewis Ludier called them. Yeah,

661
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 1: he was so dismissive of Alice and Ethel. But at

662
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: the same time too, I mean, remember, yeah, that Ethel

663
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: and Alice are in Washington at the same time, and

664
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean, talk about personality differences. You have Alice Dunnagan,

665
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: who was so much more reserved, and then Ethel comes

666
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 1: in and she's such a bulldozer. And when that incident

667
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: with Eisenhower happened, the Black press freaked out. They accused

668
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: her of being overly assertive because it was again it

669
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: was that issue of like, Okay, we can't we can't

670
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: make too many waves, don't like act out because it's

671
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: taken so much for us to even get in the

672
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 1: room in Washington. But she did not care at all

673
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: about likability. Um. She had a great quote saying, I

674
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: admit it. I was obnoxious, stubborn, and absolutely impossible to

675
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: work with, impervious to all suggestions as to how to

676
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: behave with civility. But when you're a black reporter, man

677
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,319
Speaker 1: or woman, that's part of your job. Yeah. I mean,

678
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: but there were other reporters as part of that press

679
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: corps who were saying that that question should have been

680
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: asked anyway, And instead of being like TSK tess Ethel

681
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: were like, hey, why aren't the rest of you asking

682
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: these questions? And because of her work, and because of

683
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: how political she was, and because of how involved she was,

684
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: she was the only woman invited to lbj's office for

685
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: the signing of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting

686
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: Rights Act. He only invited people who were important and

687
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: critical to the civil rights movement, and she was one

688
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: of those people. She ended up actually getting two of

689
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 1: the pins that he used to sign those acts. Um

690
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: And you mentioned earlier about how she wasn't necessarily an

691
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: objective journalists as much as she claimed that she didn't

692
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,800
Speaker 1: have bias, but I mean, she it was never really

693
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 1: her goal like you talked about. I mean, her goal

694
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: was to whether whether she you know, kind of was

695
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,280
Speaker 1: blind to her own biases. She was really driven to

696
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: uncover the truth. And in talking about that, she once said,

697
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: the privilege of being a White House correspondent, wasn't that enough?

698
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: Why couldn't I be quiet and not stir things up? Well,

699
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: I didn't think that was my purpose. If you've lived

700
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: through the black experience in this country, you feel that

701
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: every day you're assaulted by the system. You're either acquiescent,

702
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,760
Speaker 1: which I think is wrong, or else you just rebel

703
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: and you kick against it. Yeah, and she says I

704
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: wanted to constantly, constantly, constantly hammer away raise the questions

705
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: that needed to be raised. And she later said that,

706
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was part of the problem if I

707
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: didn't speak up. So she felt compelled to speak up.

708
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: This is a woman who had wanted to be a

709
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: civil rights lawyer for the specifically for the poor and disenfranchised.

710
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: So you know, she's made quite the name for herself.

711
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: She's an incredibly successful reporter, and so the Chicago Defender

712
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 1: actually sends her overseas to be their international reporter. So

713
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: she goes back across the ocean and lands in Vietnam

714
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: on Christmas Day, nineteen sixties six. She was the first

715
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: African American woman reporter to do this. Well, I mean,

716
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: she was the first member of the Black press to

717
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: go to Vietnam period two. I mean, and it was

718
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 1: super rare for just a female correspondent period to a

719
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: exist but then also be an a war zone. And

720
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: her reporting over there of a situation for African American

721
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: troops in the war was so important because back in

722
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 1: the and its states, the community was really divided over

723
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: Vietnam because of the irony of US soldiers being over

724
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: there fighting to allegedly free a people while its own

725
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: people had to fight tooth and nail for equality. But

726
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 1: at the same time, Ethel Payne was not overtly critical

727
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 1: of the war because this was the first time the

728
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: army was fully integrated, and she considered the black soldiers

729
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: quote free of racial barriers. Well. Part of that was

730
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 1: that a lot of reporters at the time, a lot

731
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: of black reporters at the time, were encouraged by their

732
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: home papers to try to gloss over any potential racism

733
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: or segregation that was still lingering. They wanted to present

734
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: a better picture to the people back home um in

735
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: order to support the war. In order to support African

736
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: American soldiers. She would later go on to say that

737
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: she regretted not being more critical of the war. Yeah,

738
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: and and after via no, I mean, she just continues traveling.

739
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: She reports on the Asian Africa Summit in Indonesia. She

740
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: travels to Ghana with President Nixon. UM and side note

741
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: on that when I think it was was it Kissinger?

742
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: He specifically requested her. He said he wanted that woman

743
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: who gives me hell on CBS to accompany him. Oh

744
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: my god, I love it. Um And she ended up

745
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 1: going to China with Susan Sontag and a group of

746
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 1: other people, and they were I think one of, if

747
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: not the first group of Americans who went into China,

748
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: like who were even allowed in China at that time.

749
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: But in the nineteen seventies, she ends up finally retiring

750
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: from the Chicago Defender. They tried to make her um

751
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 1: essentially like manager of the local news operations. She was

752
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: just like, I can't do this. I'm not into this

753
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: local stuff. Sorry. But she's then hired on by CBS

754
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 1: and becomes the first black female news commentator for a

755
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: major radio and TV network. And I think it was

756
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: in an interview with Gwynn Eiffel, the author of one

757
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 1: of these fantastic books about black women journalist, talks about

758
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: how Um, there was a well known black male newscaster

759
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: who told this author that I saw um ethel pain

760
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: on television and I knew I could do that too.

761
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: And that story it just gives me goose bumps because

762
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: we talked all the time about like role models and

763
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: seeing yourself represented. And not only is this a black

764
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 1: person feeling like I can achieve something in a white

765
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: dominated industry, but it's a man seeing an incredibly inspiring

766
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 1: woman on screen too. If you see it, you can

767
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: be at Caroline. And as she was working for CBS,

768
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 1: she also continued expanding her reach with syndicated columns. UM,

769
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: so she'd be she was a well known name around

770
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: the country. UM. And she died in and there was

771
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 1: a quote that she gave talking about how she had

772
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 1: a box seat on history and she was like, I

773
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: like to think that I helped change things. She did.

774
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,320
Speaker 1: She for sure wanted to be remembered as an agent

775
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 1: of change, and without a doubt she was, Yeah. I mean,

776
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: the the only sad part about it is how unsung

777
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: she has been. UM. But we should also note about

778
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 1: the black press at the time. After the Civil rights movement,

779
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: it really starts to fade from relevance as these larger

780
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: newspapers start hiring the best and brightest black journalists and

781
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: they begin actually covering civil rights and other African American

782
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: relevant issues. And then on top of that, you have

783
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 1: the growing success of Ebony and Jet magazines that kind

784
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: of pushes these, uh, these black newspapers out of business.

785
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: I mean, because you then have higher ad rates. I mean,

786
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: now we're just getting into the weeds of how um

787
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: journalism opera rations were, but essentially they were evil and

788
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: her counterparts did such a good job they kind of

789
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: put the black press out of business in a lot

790
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: of ways. But you see sort of the repeated re

791
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: emergence of a vocal black press so to speak nowadays.

792
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: Not to use the word nowadays and sound like an

793
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: old but you have all of these incredible voices emerging

794
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 1: online on Twitter. You've got the route which I love

795
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: to read, um that is bringing up issues that are

796
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 1: relevant to communities of color, that again the mainstream press

797
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 1: is not paying the same attention to. Yeah, I mean,

798
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: and the media might have changed, but I think that

799
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: the voices are getting louder. I mean, because it's also

800
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: not just journalists and established thinkers like Jamil Smith, but

801
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: you also just have the existence of black Twitter. I

802
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: mean that it's I mean, there's that level of organizing.

803
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: It is happening. It's just more digital than I r L. Yeah,

804
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 1: and I think that. And I don't want to put

805
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: words in Ethel's mouth. I'm sure she would be more

806
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: than happy to spit them out. She would be more

807
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: than happy to speak for herself. Um, but I think

808
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: she would be really excited by the social justice landscape today.

809
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 1: I mean, she was absolutely an agenda journalist because I

810
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: mean the truth is, you do have to change people's

811
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: hearts and minds from the ground up. Yes, yes, when

812
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,760
Speaker 1: you get Supreme Court rulings and legislation, that is the

813
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: ultimate goal. But first you have to do a lot

814
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 1: of mind changing. And that was that was her goal.

815
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,760
Speaker 1: She wanted to change people's lives. Yeah, I mean, and

816
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: and also too, I mean Supreme Court decisions and legislation,

817
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: that's not where it stops. I mean, think about her

818
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: reaction to Brown, I mean just being so um so

819
00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: upset at almost how toothless it was but speaking ethel

820
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 1: Pain being alive today, Oh man, I wish she was

821
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: on Twitter. Oh God, I know I have the same

822
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: thought or tumbler. Well, listeners, now I want to hear

823
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: from you. What are your thoughts on all of this?

824
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of ethel pain before? Are there

825
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: people that we didn't talk about? Figures in the black

826
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: press that we should have mentioned that we didn't let

827
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: us know? Help us fill in all of the pieces

828
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: of this story that all of us need to know

829
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: so much more about mom Stuff at house Stuff works

830
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: dot Com is our email address. You can also tweet

831
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and

832
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: we have a couple of messages to share with you

833
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 1: right now. Well, I have a letter here from Rachel

834
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: in response to our miscarriage interview with Dr Jessica Zucker.

835
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: She says, heycy and see, it's me, the gal who

836
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: stopped taking Speranta lacton so she could get pregnant. Well conceived,

837
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: I did, but it quickly ended in an ectopic pregnancy.

838
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 1: I opted to have surgery as treatment, and literally the

839
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,839
Speaker 1: first time I looked at my phone and recovery, I

840
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: saw that the eye had a miscarriage. Episode had dropped.

841
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: It took me two weeks to bring myself to listen

842
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: to the episode, but I'm so glad that I did.

843
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 1: While my loss was early on, it was certainly traumatic,

844
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: with emergency major surgery and the loss of one of

845
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: my fallopian tubes. Although I didn't know that I was

846
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: pregnant until I knew that something was wrong, I still

847
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: had to grieve the disappointment and the perceived failure of

848
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: my otherwise healthy and somewhat youthful body, and the loss

849
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: of a crucial part of my reproductive system. Something that

850
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: I thought would be so natural and easy was suddenly

851
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: a disaster. I have found refuge in the support of friends, family,

852
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: and lady co workers, because when you disappear for a week,

853
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: at least key people in the office have to know

854
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 1: the whole story. When I tell my story, I always

855
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: say that the women need to discuss the issues more.

856
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: I mentioned to my husband that what happened to us

857
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: is rare. His response, no, it's not. All the articles

858
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: I've read say it's about one and fifty pregnancies and

859
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: an eck topic one in fifty that is so much

860
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 1: more common than I ever would have expected. Pregnancy laws

861
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: in any way is a very real possible outcome of conception,

862
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: and I just keep thinking that if we had been

863
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: hearing about it in a real and honest manner our

864
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 1: whole lives, we would have been better equipped to deal

865
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 1: with the situation. Thank you for the interview with Dr Zucker.

866
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 1: It could not have come to me at a better time.

867
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for that traumatic experience you had to go through,

868
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 1: but we really appreciate you sharing your story. So I've

869
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: got to let her hear from Kim about our episode

870
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: on NASA's Hidden Women, and she writes, I wanted to

871
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: comment on the word hidden in your podcast title. You're

872
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 1: sad that these amazing women aren't household names, and some

873
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: of them were impossible to research. This is a problem

874
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: inherent in STEM fields. We don't watch science like we

875
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: watch sports. Great accomplishments aren't often labeled great until we

876
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: can look at them through the lens of history, and

877
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: much of the work is done behind closed doors or

878
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 1: private companies. So your podcast is a great example of

879
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 1: thing I tell the women engineers around me, don't let

880
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: your history be forgotten. Write it down, talk to people,

881
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: even if it's complicated. Think of the ways you could

882
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: explain to a first grader what it is you're doing

883
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: to make the world a better place. I'm an electrical

884
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 1: engineer in the aviation industry. What what I helped figure

885
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: out how to make cockpit displays, radios and sensors work together.

886
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:26,359
Speaker 1: And I love all caps my job. But growing up

887
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what electrical engineers did. I liked physics

888
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: and had a hunch I could make it. It was

889
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: a gutsy decision, but it should have been an obvious choice.

890
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: Telling our stories and all the other ones like Katherine

891
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: Johnson's will make us less hidden and will help all

892
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: of the next girls know that they're taking the right

893
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,839
Speaker 1: steps into STEM and I couldn't agree more. Kim and listeners, now,

894
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you, Mom Stabatt. How stub

895
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and thrillings all

896
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs,

897
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,879
Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn

898
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: more about ethel pain and the Black Press. Head on

899
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 1: over the Stuff Mom Never told You dot com or

900
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it

901
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com