1 00:00:17,242 --> 00:00:29,441 Speaker 1: Pushkin in twenty fifteen. Bruce Rastetter was at the height 2 00:00:29,482 --> 00:00:31,322 Speaker 1: of his political capital, so. 3 00:00:31,242 --> 00:00:33,082 Speaker 2: We thought it made sense that we ought to have 4 00:00:33,122 --> 00:00:36,842 Speaker 2: a discussion. We ought to ask those questions we're hopeful 5 00:00:36,882 --> 00:00:37,522 Speaker 2: for answers. 6 00:00:37,802 --> 00:00:40,882 Speaker 3: The summit was put on by a man named Bruce Rastetter, 7 00:00:41,042 --> 00:00:44,642 Speaker 3: a wealthy Republican donor who made his money in agribusiness 8 00:00:44,882 --> 00:00:49,402 Speaker 3: and who wanted to quiz potential presidential candidates about ag policy. 9 00:00:49,682 --> 00:00:53,522 Speaker 1: That was NPR's Tamra Keith with a story about the 10 00:00:53,602 --> 00:01:00,122 Speaker 1: Iowa agg Summit, an event Rastutter created, Politico, NBC, The Atlantic, 11 00:01:00,282 --> 00:01:03,802 Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of local Iowa media covered it too. 12 00:01:05,282 --> 00:01:08,402 Speaker 1: Lots of those stories referred to Bruce Rastutter as a 13 00:01:08,562 --> 00:01:12,162 Speaker 1: Republican kingmaker in the state, and you could see why. 14 00:01:12,562 --> 00:01:16,362 Speaker 1: The event consisted primarily of Republican candidates being trotted out 15 00:01:16,402 --> 00:01:20,161 Speaker 1: on stage, each for the same amount of time, each 16 00:01:20,441 --> 00:01:24,441 Speaker 1: asked the same questions, always by Bruce Rastetter. 17 00:01:24,961 --> 00:01:29,481 Speaker 3: Nine potential candidates showed up, all Republicans. Each got twenty 18 00:01:29,521 --> 00:01:32,802 Speaker 3: minutes on stage before an audience of hundreds and a 19 00:01:32,842 --> 00:01:37,242 Speaker 3: whole riser full of cameras. They were answering sometimes wonky 20 00:01:37,402 --> 00:01:43,002 Speaker 3: questions from Rastetter about farming, wind power, immigration, trade, and 21 00:01:43,282 --> 00:01:44,002 Speaker 3: the big one. 22 00:01:44,122 --> 00:01:48,442 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the RFS, renewable fuels. Next subject, the RFS. 23 00:01:48,762 --> 00:01:51,082 Speaker 2: You've been an unabashed support of the RFS. 24 00:01:51,362 --> 00:01:55,562 Speaker 3: Why if there was any question about the overriding viewpoint 25 00:01:55,642 --> 00:01:58,842 Speaker 3: of the Iowa agg summit looked no further than the 26 00:01:59,002 --> 00:02:03,762 Speaker 3: giant foam fingers one sponsor passed out. They read renewable 27 00:02:03,802 --> 00:02:05,282 Speaker 3: fuels number one. 28 00:02:05,882 --> 00:02:09,602 Speaker 1: At the time, Rastetter was backing former New Jersey Governor 29 00:02:09,722 --> 00:02:14,842 Speaker 1: Chris Christy, Republican nominee for president. In twenty sixteen, as 30 00:02:14,882 --> 00:02:17,562 Speaker 1: it became clear that Donald Trump would be the front runner, 31 00:02:17,842 --> 00:02:22,162 Speaker 1: he joined Trump's Agricultural Advisory Committee. There was even talk 32 00:02:22,202 --> 00:02:28,362 Speaker 1: at the time of Rastutter being named Trump's Secretary of Agriculture. Meanwhile, 33 00:02:28,442 --> 00:02:31,802 Speaker 1: his efforts in Brazil were going well too. He'd closed 34 00:02:31,842 --> 00:02:34,762 Speaker 1: on the farm in Mato Grosso with the Frownz brothers, 35 00:02:35,002 --> 00:02:38,482 Speaker 1: and plans for their first Brazilian ethanol plant were underway. 36 00:02:38,882 --> 00:02:42,122 Speaker 1: Just a few months after his Iowa agsamma in twenty fifteen, 37 00:02:42,322 --> 00:02:45,842 Speaker 1: Bruce was back in Brazil doing more land tours, this 38 00:02:46,002 --> 00:02:49,802 Speaker 1: time up in the Amazon in Amapa, which travel bloggers 39 00:02:49,882 --> 00:02:53,522 Speaker 1: loved to describe as the most isolated state in Brazil. 40 00:02:54,202 --> 00:02:56,842 Speaker 4: Welcome to Brazil's most isolated. 41 00:02:56,282 --> 00:02:59,362 Speaker 5: State, Amapa, nestled deep in the Amazon in the north 42 00:02:59,362 --> 00:02:59,562 Speaker 5: of the. 43 00:02:59,562 --> 00:03:02,842 Speaker 2: Country Uamapa Arista do Misizolado do Brazil. 44 00:03:03,242 --> 00:03:05,962 Speaker 1: Bruce was in Amapa to do business. He told a 45 00:03:06,002 --> 00:03:08,362 Speaker 1: local paper at the time that the location of the 46 00:03:08,442 --> 00:03:11,642 Speaker 1: state at the mouth of the Amazon, with direct access 47 00:03:11,682 --> 00:03:15,162 Speaker 1: to the Atlantic, made it a perfect spot for agriculture, 48 00:03:15,522 --> 00:03:18,482 Speaker 1: and it was in an easy reach of markets beyond Brazil. 49 00:03:23,362 --> 00:03:26,162 Speaker 1: So Bruce and his partners bought a plot of land 50 00:03:26,242 --> 00:03:30,082 Speaker 1: in northern Namapa and started farming. You heard last time 51 00:03:30,522 --> 00:03:33,522 Speaker 1: that his business partners wasted no time getting into the 52 00:03:33,602 --> 00:03:37,042 Speaker 1: shipping and port business up there too, so they could 53 00:03:37,042 --> 00:03:42,642 Speaker 1: export corn and eventually maybe even corn ethanol. By twenty twenty, 54 00:03:42,682 --> 00:03:47,282 Speaker 1: Bruce's Brazilian company FS had two ethanol plants up and 55 00:03:47,402 --> 00:03:51,002 Speaker 1: running in Manto Grosso. In twenty twenty one, he announced 56 00:03:51,002 --> 00:03:55,682 Speaker 1: his big carbon capture pipeline project, the Midwest Carbon Express 57 00:03:55,802 --> 00:04:00,362 Speaker 1: in Iowa, and by twenty twenty three FS had opened 58 00:04:00,402 --> 00:04:04,442 Speaker 1: a third ethanol plant in Monto Grosso. For years there 59 00:04:04,722 --> 00:04:11,642 Speaker 1: everything was coming up Bruce until it wasn't. I Mimmi 60 00:04:11,722 --> 00:04:15,722 Speaker 1: Westervelt and this is Drill to season fifteen Carbon Cowboys, 61 00:04:15,962 --> 00:04:19,322 Speaker 1: a collaboration with the Intercept Brazil to tell the story 62 00:04:19,402 --> 00:04:22,842 Speaker 1: of how the ethanol kingpin of Iowa brought corn ethanol 63 00:04:22,921 --> 00:04:26,442 Speaker 1: to Brazil after the break the cracks in the plan 64 00:04:26,762 --> 00:04:39,722 Speaker 1: for global carbon domination like you heard in episode one. 65 00:04:40,082 --> 00:04:43,242 Speaker 1: We first started looking into this story not because of 66 00:04:43,282 --> 00:04:46,282 Speaker 1: anything that happened in Brazil or Iowa, but because of 67 00:04:46,322 --> 00:04:52,242 Speaker 1: something incredibly wonky carbon capture and storage. Again, this is 68 00:04:52,282 --> 00:04:55,361 Speaker 1: the idea that the carbon dioxide emissions from things like 69 00:04:55,442 --> 00:05:00,162 Speaker 1: power plants, refineries, and factories can be captured and either 70 00:05:00,242 --> 00:05:04,122 Speaker 1: reused in some way or stored specifically. I thought I 71 00:05:04,202 --> 00:05:07,722 Speaker 1: must be missing something, because some very smart people seem 72 00:05:07,802 --> 00:05:10,041 Speaker 1: to think that this was a great idea for dealing 73 00:05:10,042 --> 00:05:14,202 Speaker 1: with carbon emissions. But to me, the math wasn't mapping. 74 00:05:16,562 --> 00:05:18,362 Speaker 1: It sounds good at first, I know, just put the 75 00:05:18,362 --> 00:05:20,522 Speaker 1: stuff back where we got it. It comes out of 76 00:05:20,562 --> 00:05:23,282 Speaker 1: the ground, right, so strip the bad stuff out and 77 00:05:23,442 --> 00:05:25,242 Speaker 1: shove it back down there. Problem solved. 78 00:05:25,682 --> 00:05:26,122 Speaker 6: After all. 79 00:05:26,162 --> 00:05:29,282 Speaker 1: The problem with fossil fuels is really just their emissions, 80 00:05:29,522 --> 00:05:32,682 Speaker 1: So if we can shove those underground, we're good. Sort 81 00:05:32,722 --> 00:05:37,481 Speaker 1: of like how men deal with feelings. This, of course 82 00:05:37,562 --> 00:05:41,362 Speaker 1: ignores all the other environmental and health issues that come 83 00:05:41,442 --> 00:05:45,242 Speaker 1: with drilling, refining, and burning fossil fuels. But even if 84 00:05:45,242 --> 00:05:47,842 Speaker 1: we agree to ignore air pollution for a minute, the 85 00:05:47,882 --> 00:05:51,242 Speaker 1: more you think about carbon capture, the less sense it makes. 86 00:05:53,322 --> 00:05:57,202 Speaker 1: First off, it's a gas, famously a substance that doesn't 87 00:05:57,202 --> 00:06:00,082 Speaker 1: stay put, and in fact, projects all over the world 88 00:06:00,202 --> 00:06:04,162 Speaker 1: have struggled to keep it stored. Then carbon capture is 89 00:06:04,202 --> 00:06:07,801 Speaker 1: pretty inefficient. The models that paint it as a great 90 00:06:07,842 --> 00:06:11,962 Speaker 1: solution to climate change assume it will capture ninety percent 91 00:06:12,042 --> 00:06:15,962 Speaker 1: or more of emissions on whatever facility it's connected to. 92 00:06:16,722 --> 00:06:20,361 Speaker 1: In reality, it's been more like fifty to seventy percent. 93 00:06:20,922 --> 00:06:24,562 Speaker 1: And remember we're just talking about the emissions generated at 94 00:06:24,642 --> 00:06:29,002 Speaker 1: a power plant or an industrial facility. So best case, 95 00:06:29,242 --> 00:06:34,202 Speaker 1: carbon captured could deal with around five percent of global emissions, 96 00:06:34,602 --> 00:06:41,442 Speaker 1: but we don't have enough storage capacity for that much. Finally, 97 00:06:41,562 --> 00:06:44,882 Speaker 1: carbon capture requires equipment to capture the carbon and then 98 00:06:44,922 --> 00:06:47,842 Speaker 1: pipe it somewhere to be stored, even if that storage 99 00:06:47,882 --> 00:06:52,361 Speaker 1: tank is on site of the facility. That all requires energy, 100 00:06:52,882 --> 00:06:57,242 Speaker 1: sometimes a lot of energy, usually fossil energy, So you 101 00:06:57,282 --> 00:07:01,122 Speaker 1: have a whole other set of emissions. Mark Jacobson is 102 00:07:01,122 --> 00:07:04,722 Speaker 1: an engineering professor at Stanford University and a vocal critic 103 00:07:04,802 --> 00:07:08,642 Speaker 1: of carbon capture. He's done multiple studies on this problem, 104 00:07:08,722 --> 00:07:13,682 Speaker 1: including one on specifically the energy required to power carbon capture. 105 00:07:14,322 --> 00:07:17,602 Speaker 1: It's called the energy penalty. 106 00:07:17,962 --> 00:07:20,362 Speaker 7: In the case of coal, I mean that energy penalty 107 00:07:20,402 --> 00:07:22,202 Speaker 7: is large. It's on the order of twenty five percent 108 00:07:22,242 --> 00:07:24,642 Speaker 7: of the energy from the cold plant. So if you 109 00:07:24,682 --> 00:07:26,722 Speaker 7: get the energy from coal, you need twenty five percent 110 00:07:26,762 --> 00:07:30,322 Speaker 7: more coal, and you'll as a result, you'll have twenty 111 00:07:30,322 --> 00:07:33,642 Speaker 7: five percent more air pollution from the coal emissions, and 112 00:07:33,922 --> 00:07:36,722 Speaker 7: you need twenty five percent more coal mining as well. 113 00:07:37,322 --> 00:07:41,162 Speaker 1: Jacobson did his energy penalty study on an actual functioning 114 00:07:41,362 --> 00:07:45,042 Speaker 1: carbon capture plant, although like a lot of others, it 115 00:07:45,082 --> 00:07:47,482 Speaker 1: did close after a few years of operating. 116 00:07:50,482 --> 00:07:55,082 Speaker 7: Was in Thompson, Texas. It's called Petronova, and they added 117 00:07:55,122 --> 00:07:58,122 Speaker 7: to a part of the cold plant they added carbon 118 00:07:58,122 --> 00:08:02,802 Speaker 7: capture equipment. It cost one billion dollars and instead of 119 00:08:02,802 --> 00:08:05,802 Speaker 7: actually getting the energy from coal, they built a natural 120 00:08:05,842 --> 00:08:09,282 Speaker 7: gas plant just to provide the electricity to run the 121 00:08:09,322 --> 00:08:14,362 Speaker 7: carbon capture equipment for the coal plant. So they had 122 00:08:14,362 --> 00:08:17,602 Speaker 7: to now mind gas and pipe the gas to the 123 00:08:17,642 --> 00:08:20,402 Speaker 7: gas plant, burn the gas. None of the gas emissions 124 00:08:20,402 --> 00:08:24,762 Speaker 7: were controlled or captured, so you had air pollution from 125 00:08:24,762 --> 00:08:29,122 Speaker 7: the gas, you had carbon dioxide from the gas, and 126 00:08:29,722 --> 00:08:34,281 Speaker 7: the overall efficiency of the capture equipment was not very good. 127 00:08:35,202 --> 00:08:37,482 Speaker 7: It was like fifty five percent in the first year. 128 00:08:39,401 --> 00:08:42,882 Speaker 1: The plant was using so much extra energy on carbon capture, 129 00:08:43,041 --> 00:08:45,801 Speaker 1: and it still was only capturing a little more than 130 00:08:45,881 --> 00:08:48,122 Speaker 1: half of the carbon dioxide from the coal. 131 00:08:48,442 --> 00:08:50,801 Speaker 7: They built a pipeline system and they used that carbon 132 00:08:50,801 --> 00:08:53,962 Speaker 7: dioxide they did capture. They transported it to a nearby 133 00:08:54,041 --> 00:08:57,401 Speaker 7: oil field to dig out more oil through a process 134 00:08:57,401 --> 00:08:59,402 Speaker 7: called enhanced oil recovery h. 135 00:08:59,521 --> 00:09:05,202 Speaker 1: Yes, enhanced oil recovery injecting compressed CO two underground to 136 00:09:05,362 --> 00:09:09,122 Speaker 1: get more oil out. Turns out, oil companies had been 137 00:09:09,242 --> 00:09:13,562 Speaker 1: using carbon captures the seventies not to deal with emissions, 138 00:09:13,602 --> 00:09:15,561 Speaker 1: but to optimize oil production. 139 00:09:16,041 --> 00:09:18,761 Speaker 7: About seventy three percent of all carbon diox like captured 140 00:09:18,801 --> 00:09:21,682 Speaker 7: in the world is used for enhanced oil recovery, so 141 00:09:21,722 --> 00:09:24,602 Speaker 7: it gets you more oil. And during that process of 142 00:09:24,681 --> 00:09:27,282 Speaker 7: enhanced oil recovery, forty percent of the CO two is 143 00:09:27,322 --> 00:09:28,441 Speaker 7: really straight back to the air. 144 00:09:29,442 --> 00:09:32,641 Speaker 1: Jacobson said, by the time he accounted for that plus 145 00:09:32,681 --> 00:09:36,682 Speaker 1: the emissions generated powering the carbon capture equipment at Petro Nova. 146 00:09:37,242 --> 00:09:40,802 Speaker 1: It was maybe capturing around seven percent of the coal 147 00:09:40,842 --> 00:09:43,881 Speaker 1: plant's emissions, and that didn't account for all the new 148 00:09:43,921 --> 00:09:48,721 Speaker 1: air pollution created by powering the carbon capture equipment. As 149 00:09:48,801 --> 00:09:52,041 Speaker 1: natural gas became more common, oil companies had to learn 150 00:09:52,082 --> 00:09:55,161 Speaker 1: how to separate carbon dioxide and do something with that too. 151 00:09:56,281 --> 00:10:00,401 Speaker 1: Carbon captured to the rescue once again. So okay, the 152 00:10:00,442 --> 00:10:02,761 Speaker 1: oil and gas industry had figured out how to use 153 00:10:02,801 --> 00:10:05,881 Speaker 1: a waste product to get more oil out. How the 154 00:10:05,921 --> 00:10:13,641 Speaker 1: heck had this been rebranded as a climate solution. It 155 00:10:13,681 --> 00:10:16,042 Speaker 1: was in trying to answer that question that I met 156 00:10:16,082 --> 00:10:18,962 Speaker 1: Carolyn Raethensberger. You heard from her a bit earlier in 157 00:10:19,002 --> 00:10:21,722 Speaker 1: the season. She's the executive director of the Science and 158 00:10:21,842 --> 00:10:26,042 Speaker 1: Environmental Health Network and lives in Iowa. She's the one 159 00:10:26,082 --> 00:10:30,442 Speaker 1: who first told me about Summit's carbon pipeline project in Iowa, 160 00:10:30,842 --> 00:10:33,801 Speaker 1: the one that got Bruce Rastutter so much pushback. 161 00:10:34,761 --> 00:10:39,322 Speaker 8: A pipeline company in Iowa called some Carbon Solutions, has 162 00:10:40,521 --> 00:10:46,562 Speaker 8: solicited permits in multiple states, had just been given a 163 00:10:46,681 --> 00:10:49,321 Speaker 8: permit by the Iowa Utilities Commission. 164 00:10:50,161 --> 00:10:54,242 Speaker 9: You had the John BIRDE Society in the Sierra Club, 165 00:10:54,401 --> 00:10:56,122 Speaker 9: it was saying, no, you're not going to do this, 166 00:10:56,962 --> 00:11:01,242 Speaker 9: and they gave permission, even knowing that the CO two 167 00:11:01,322 --> 00:11:03,281 Speaker 9: pipeline rule had not been finalized. 168 00:11:04,362 --> 00:11:07,602 Speaker 1: The strange mix of opponents to the pipeline was fascinating, 169 00:11:07,921 --> 00:11:11,481 Speaker 1: as was the fact that someone is prominent in Republican politics, 170 00:11:11,602 --> 00:11:16,682 Speaker 1: as Bruce Rastetter, had somehow not realized that people would 171 00:11:16,722 --> 00:11:21,282 Speaker 1: get mad if their property rights were threatened. Corey Melby, 172 00:11:21,401 --> 00:11:25,122 Speaker 1: or American ad consultant in Brazil, had thoughts on that too. 173 00:11:25,801 --> 00:11:29,482 Speaker 10: Irony. When you think of conservatives of the past, all 174 00:11:29,561 --> 00:11:34,642 Speaker 10: constitution land branch property right or were sack, we're sanct 175 00:11:34,801 --> 00:11:37,042 Speaker 10: you know, they would die on the cross for that. 176 00:11:37,761 --> 00:11:40,921 Speaker 10: But as soon as, oh, it goes against their pipeline, 177 00:11:41,082 --> 00:11:46,122 Speaker 10: they're not conservatives anymore either their business period. 178 00:11:46,881 --> 00:11:52,362 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't just libertarian property owners who objected 179 00:11:52,362 --> 00:11:55,482 Speaker 1: to this approach. Almost as soon as the Midwest Carbon 180 00:11:55,561 --> 00:11:58,961 Speaker 1: Express was announced, many of the same networks that had 181 00:11:59,002 --> 00:12:02,841 Speaker 1: fought against the Dakota Access Pipeline mobilized quickly to fight 182 00:12:02,921 --> 00:12:06,921 Speaker 1: summit in both Iowa and the Dakotas a. 183 00:12:06,881 --> 00:12:10,362 Speaker 11: Lot of stuff that took time to figure out during 184 00:12:10,401 --> 00:12:13,681 Speaker 11: Standing Rock was kind of just implemented right away. You know, 185 00:12:13,962 --> 00:12:16,922 Speaker 11: people that had worked together in the past easily got 186 00:12:16,921 --> 00:12:18,602 Speaker 11: together and had conversations. 187 00:12:19,242 --> 00:12:23,562 Speaker 1: This is Sakawis Nobis, an Indigenous activist and founder of 188 00:12:23,602 --> 00:12:27,842 Speaker 1: the Great Planes Action Society, speaking to Drilled reporter Allen 189 00:12:27,921 --> 00:12:30,201 Speaker 1: Brown and Iowa earlier this year. 190 00:12:31,161 --> 00:12:33,801 Speaker 11: There's a great network of people that's been created because 191 00:12:33,842 --> 00:12:36,161 Speaker 11: of Standing Rock. Well, I don't want to just say 192 00:12:36,161 --> 00:12:38,641 Speaker 11: Standing Rock. There's a great network of people that have 193 00:12:38,722 --> 00:12:42,362 Speaker 11: been created because of the fight here in Iowa. I 194 00:12:42,401 --> 00:12:45,002 Speaker 11: don't feel like people talk about that. Ever, the majority 195 00:12:45,002 --> 00:12:47,722 Speaker 11: of the pipeline goes through Iowa. The fight started in 196 00:12:47,761 --> 00:12:49,881 Speaker 11: Iowa in twenty fourteen, in the. 197 00:12:49,881 --> 00:12:53,161 Speaker 1: Fight against the Midwest Carbon Express They were suddenly joined 198 00:12:53,161 --> 00:12:56,402 Speaker 1: by people who'd been vehement opponents to the Standing Rock movement. 199 00:12:57,362 --> 00:12:58,641 Speaker 6: It's actually become. 200 00:12:59,962 --> 00:13:05,161 Speaker 11: One of the extremely few issues in Iowa that brings 201 00:13:05,202 --> 00:13:09,002 Speaker 11: Republicans and Democrats together to like to stop the pipeline. 202 00:13:09,362 --> 00:13:13,802 Speaker 1: That has, of course, also created some tensions because it's 203 00:13:13,881 --> 00:13:16,921 Speaker 1: not just landowners who are worried about how carbon capture 204 00:13:17,041 --> 00:13:19,162 Speaker 1: infrastructure might impact them. 205 00:13:19,561 --> 00:13:23,042 Speaker 11: This whole thing from the beginning has been so racialized 206 00:13:23,881 --> 00:13:28,041 Speaker 11: and also based on class here in Iowa. They did 207 00:13:28,082 --> 00:13:30,721 Speaker 11: these meetings were in the counties where the pipelines are 208 00:13:30,722 --> 00:13:34,362 Speaker 11: going through, and you know they did them at nine 209 00:13:34,401 --> 00:13:36,362 Speaker 11: o'clock on a freaking Wednesday morning. 210 00:13:36,962 --> 00:13:40,202 Speaker 1: Nobis says, many of the big environmental groups fighting the 211 00:13:40,202 --> 00:13:44,842 Speaker 1: Summit Carbon pipeline have focused on the white land owning farmers, 212 00:13:45,161 --> 00:13:48,521 Speaker 1: so she and other environmental justice advocates have focused their 213 00:13:48,561 --> 00:13:50,041 Speaker 1: efforts on everyone else. 214 00:13:50,442 --> 00:13:52,202 Speaker 11: Even though this pipeline is going to go by a 215 00:13:52,242 --> 00:13:55,882 Speaker 11: town that has like tons of rentals, tons of BIPOC 216 00:13:55,921 --> 00:13:59,122 Speaker 11: people like they're not having conversations with them. 217 00:13:59,322 --> 00:14:01,602 Speaker 1: She's been working to make sure that everyone in the 218 00:14:01,602 --> 00:14:06,682 Speaker 1: pipeline's pathway is informed. When the Midwest Carbon Express Pipeline 219 00:14:06,722 --> 00:14:09,082 Speaker 1: was announced in twenty twenty one, it was due to 220 00:14:09,082 --> 00:14:13,682 Speaker 1: be operational by twenty twenty four. As of this episode's 221 00:14:13,722 --> 00:14:17,281 Speaker 1: published date in twenty twenty six, it has not even 222 00:14:17,322 --> 00:14:21,042 Speaker 1: started construction. And that's not the only problem Bruce is 223 00:14:21,082 --> 00:14:24,162 Speaker 1: facing back home. Though he endorsed Trump in both his 224 00:14:24,282 --> 00:14:29,362 Speaker 1: presidential campaigns, Bruce Rastutter also publicly voiced concerns over Trump's 225 00:14:29,402 --> 00:14:35,962 Speaker 1: approach to trade policy, particularly tariffs, and sure enough, Trump's 226 00:14:36,002 --> 00:14:38,722 Speaker 1: tariffs have been tough on American farmers. 227 00:14:39,082 --> 00:14:42,162 Speaker 12: In Tonight's Eye on America farmers caught in the middle 228 00:14:42,202 --> 00:14:42,882 Speaker 12: of a trade war. 229 00:14:43,282 --> 00:14:46,922 Speaker 13: President Trump has promised a new bailout for American farmers 230 00:14:47,242 --> 00:14:50,722 Speaker 13: as much as thirteen billion dollars that he said would 231 00:14:50,722 --> 00:14:52,321 Speaker 13: be paid for by the tariffs. 232 00:14:52,642 --> 00:14:54,841 Speaker 10: We're going to take some of that tariff money that 233 00:14:54,882 --> 00:14:56,482 Speaker 10: we made. We're going to give it to our farmers 234 00:14:56,922 --> 00:15:00,362 Speaker 10: who are for a little while going to be heard 235 00:15:00,522 --> 00:15:01,442 Speaker 10: until it kicks in. 236 00:15:01,522 --> 00:15:03,162 Speaker 7: The tariff's kick into their benefit. 237 00:15:03,482 --> 00:15:05,802 Speaker 8: Farm bankruptcies this year are surgeic. 238 00:15:05,962 --> 00:15:09,201 Speaker 1: As of June, fifty five percent more file for bankruptcy 239 00:15:09,402 --> 00:15:11,561 Speaker 1: compared to the previous year to year period. 240 00:15:12,082 --> 00:15:16,602 Speaker 13: Many are now taking their frustrations directly to Republican lawmakers 241 00:15:16,722 --> 00:15:18,922 Speaker 13: at town halls across the country. 242 00:15:19,202 --> 00:15:23,081 Speaker 9: I'm about ready to lose my thorn. I am pissed, 243 00:15:23,362 --> 00:15:24,282 Speaker 9: and I pissed at you. 244 00:15:25,242 --> 00:15:28,042 Speaker 1: That goes double for an American farmer that happens to 245 00:15:28,122 --> 00:15:37,002 Speaker 1: also be in the agriculture industry in Brazil. If you're 246 00:15:37,002 --> 00:15:39,922 Speaker 1: not an ethanol producer in the US or Brazil, you 247 00:15:40,082 --> 00:15:43,842 Speaker 1: probably don't know that ethanol has become a key lever 248 00:15:44,122 --> 00:15:47,882 Speaker 1: in an ongoing trade dispute between the two countries, the 249 00:15:48,002 --> 00:15:51,002 Speaker 1: chances of bruce rest that are not knowing are very slim. 250 00:15:51,282 --> 00:15:55,242 Speaker 1: The tension is only increasing as farmers on both sides 251 00:15:55,402 --> 00:15:59,201 Speaker 1: looked at cash in on the lucrative and growing sustainable 252 00:15:59,202 --> 00:16:03,002 Speaker 1: aviation fuel industry. Where Brazil currently has an edge because 253 00:16:03,042 --> 00:16:06,922 Speaker 1: of how it grows, it's corn. Remember we mentioned second 254 00:16:06,962 --> 00:16:12,202 Speaker 1: crop corn earlier this season. Brazilian farmers plan soy than corn, 255 00:16:12,402 --> 00:16:15,042 Speaker 1: which means they aren't adding to the amount of farmland 256 00:16:15,162 --> 00:16:19,242 Speaker 1: to grow corn. That means on paper, their emissions are 257 00:16:19,362 --> 00:16:23,842 Speaker 1: lower even without using carbon capture. Here's Daniel Lopez, VP 258 00:16:23,962 --> 00:16:28,562 Speaker 1: of Sustainability and New Business at FS talking about that with. 259 00:16:31,962 --> 00:16:36,522 Speaker 14: US corn ethanol doesn't actually achieve net zero. So I 260 00:16:36,561 --> 00:16:39,202 Speaker 14: think that often when they talk about corn ethanol, they're 261 00:16:39,202 --> 00:16:41,522 Speaker 14: looking at the United States and not at the reality 262 00:16:41,602 --> 00:16:43,082 Speaker 14: in Brazil, which is different. 263 00:16:44,842 --> 00:16:48,242 Speaker 1: Even before the debate over whose corn ethanol is greener, 264 00:16:48,842 --> 00:16:52,642 Speaker 1: for decades, US farmers have complained that the US tariff 265 00:16:52,681 --> 00:16:56,561 Speaker 1: on Brazilian ethanol is super low, less than three percent, 266 00:16:57,082 --> 00:17:01,362 Speaker 1: while the Brazilian tariff on US ethanol is around eighteen percent. 267 00:17:01,842 --> 00:17:04,922 Speaker 1: If you're an ethanol guy with business in both countries, 268 00:17:05,162 --> 00:17:07,081 Speaker 1: this is not a huge problem. You can win on 269 00:17:07,122 --> 00:17:10,442 Speaker 1: both sides, but for farmers on one side or the other, 270 00:17:10,722 --> 00:17:14,522 Speaker 1: it's a long standing battle. Tim Sahai, who runs the 271 00:17:14,561 --> 00:17:17,841 Speaker 1: net zero lab at Johns Hopkins University, says, this is 272 00:17:18,002 --> 00:17:21,561 Speaker 1: just the latest tension between farmers in the two countries. 273 00:17:22,601 --> 00:17:26,202 Speaker 5: And the question for that American igro industry was always 274 00:17:26,242 --> 00:17:28,522 Speaker 5: how do we feed the world? We don't just want 275 00:17:28,522 --> 00:17:30,601 Speaker 5: to feed America. We want to feed the world. And 276 00:17:30,642 --> 00:17:33,242 Speaker 5: when you think about feeding the world, there's one country 277 00:17:33,402 --> 00:17:36,962 Speaker 5: which is the most populus country in the world in Asia, 278 00:17:37,042 --> 00:17:39,482 Speaker 5: where people are getting richer and they want to eat 279 00:17:39,561 --> 00:17:42,042 Speaker 5: more meat, and so that country is China. So for 280 00:17:42,162 --> 00:17:44,722 Speaker 5: almost all of the twentieth century, the question of who 281 00:17:44,762 --> 00:17:49,561 Speaker 5: feeds China was front and center for American farmers, He says. 282 00:17:49,561 --> 00:17:53,242 Speaker 1: In the nineteen nineties, American senators from farm states and 283 00:17:53,321 --> 00:17:57,921 Speaker 1: ag executives were constantly going to China or hosting Chinese 284 00:17:58,002 --> 00:18:02,441 Speaker 1: businessmen in the US building a trade relationship, especially around 285 00:18:02,482 --> 00:18:06,002 Speaker 1: soy and beef. But they weren't the only ones. 286 00:18:06,642 --> 00:18:11,682 Speaker 5: It turns out almost identical set of relationships bit were 287 00:18:11,682 --> 00:18:15,881 Speaker 5: formed between agribusiness in Brazil and China. 288 00:18:16,402 --> 00:18:19,882 Speaker 1: And guess what, folks, It comes back once again to pigs. 289 00:18:20,682 --> 00:18:23,881 Speaker 5: So the way sort of beef is absolutely essential to 290 00:18:23,962 --> 00:18:27,601 Speaker 5: American sort of ideas and American frontier. And what does 291 00:18:27,642 --> 00:18:30,042 Speaker 5: it mean to have prosperity, Well, you know, you have 292 00:18:30,081 --> 00:18:33,321 Speaker 5: a steak every Sunday, and that's very similar to the 293 00:18:33,402 --> 00:18:37,361 Speaker 5: Chinese idea of having enough fork. And then what do 294 00:18:37,442 --> 00:18:40,402 Speaker 5: pigs eat, Well, they eat crush, they eat animal feed, 295 00:18:40,442 --> 00:18:41,601 Speaker 5: and they eat soiet. 296 00:18:42,442 --> 00:18:46,282 Speaker 1: Corn and soy. So American farmers and Brazilian farmers have 297 00:18:46,361 --> 00:18:49,881 Speaker 1: been wrestling for the Chinese corn and soy markets since 298 00:18:49,922 --> 00:18:52,881 Speaker 1: the nineties, although Sahai says they have kind of a 299 00:18:52,962 --> 00:18:56,682 Speaker 1: love hate relationship where they compete, but they also respect 300 00:18:56,722 --> 00:19:00,242 Speaker 1: each other. American farmers envy the amount of land still 301 00:19:00,321 --> 00:19:04,601 Speaker 1: left to develop in Brazil, and Brazilian farmers look wistfully 302 00:19:04,722 --> 00:19:07,682 Speaker 1: at what seems like more high tech farming in the US. 303 00:19:08,442 --> 00:19:10,161 Speaker 1: Ethan all became an extension of that. 304 00:19:11,042 --> 00:19:13,321 Speaker 5: So there's this way in which both Brazil and the 305 00:19:13,482 --> 00:19:17,082 Speaker 5: US are sort of again finding themselves sort of frenemies 306 00:19:17,282 --> 00:19:19,282 Speaker 5: in the same way that they were frenemies with who 307 00:19:19,321 --> 00:19:21,882 Speaker 5: feeds China? You know, it's like who's going to feed 308 00:19:21,962 --> 00:19:23,242 Speaker 5: jet fuel to the world. 309 00:19:24,002 --> 00:19:27,362 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, Trump used the imbalance on ethanol 310 00:19:27,442 --> 00:19:31,442 Speaker 1: tariffs as one of his justifications for a sweeping tariff 311 00:19:31,482 --> 00:19:35,882 Speaker 1: campaign against Brazil that was driven largely by his support 312 00:19:35,962 --> 00:19:39,242 Speaker 1: of ousted Brazilian President Jaiir Bolsonaro. 313 00:19:39,802 --> 00:19:42,042 Speaker 12: President Trump has sent out twenty two letters so far 314 00:19:42,081 --> 00:19:44,641 Speaker 12: this week setting teriff rates for different countries. One of 315 00:19:44,682 --> 00:19:47,081 Speaker 12: those letters is not like the other. That's the letter 316 00:19:47,162 --> 00:19:49,442 Speaker 12: that he sent to Brazil, which isn't so much about 317 00:19:49,442 --> 00:19:52,242 Speaker 12: the economy as it is about politics and the President's 318 00:19:52,282 --> 00:19:55,762 Speaker 12: own grievances with that country. President Trump complains about the 319 00:19:55,802 --> 00:20:00,282 Speaker 12: fact that JayR. Bolsonario, Conservative trump ally former president Brazil, 320 00:20:00,642 --> 00:20:03,482 Speaker 12: is on trial there for an attempted coup back in 321 00:20:03,561 --> 00:20:06,602 Speaker 12: twenty twenty two. Trump calls that a witch hunt, and 322 00:20:06,682 --> 00:20:10,121 Speaker 12: the President complains about Brazil's social media laws in this letter. 323 00:20:10,361 --> 00:20:12,602 Speaker 12: Only after that does it get to the economic arguments 324 00:20:12,601 --> 00:20:15,282 Speaker 12: that are supposed to be the basis of these tariffs, 325 00:20:15,402 --> 00:20:17,841 Speaker 12: saying that Brazil has been treating the US unfairly. 326 00:20:18,561 --> 00:20:23,042 Speaker 1: Trump threatened a fifty percent tariff on all goods and 327 00:20:23,202 --> 00:20:26,642 Speaker 1: implemented a forty percent one in August twenty twenty five. 328 00:20:27,762 --> 00:20:31,482 Speaker 1: The Office of the United States Trade Representative basically The 329 00:20:31,522 --> 00:20:34,762 Speaker 1: trade arm of the White House also launched a formal 330 00:20:34,882 --> 00:20:41,362 Speaker 1: investigation into Brazil's trading practices, specifically citing poor market access 331 00:20:41,482 --> 00:20:46,602 Speaker 1: for US ethanol exports as a quote long standing bilateral 332 00:20:46,841 --> 00:20:52,042 Speaker 1: trade irritant. That's bad news. If say you're building a 333 00:20:52,081 --> 00:20:56,522 Speaker 1: sustainable aviation fuel refinery in the Gulf of Mexico, perfectly 334 00:20:56,561 --> 00:21:00,242 Speaker 1: situated to receive Brazilian ethanol imports, and you happen to 335 00:21:00,282 --> 00:21:03,962 Speaker 1: also own a company in Brazil that produces corn ethanol, 336 00:21:05,202 --> 00:21:08,641 Speaker 1: worst news. The Brazilian government has shown a willingness to 337 00:21:08,802 --> 00:21:12,762 Speaker 1: offer up ethanol as the sacrificial lamb for reducing beef 338 00:21:12,802 --> 00:21:16,762 Speaker 1: and coffee tariffs. Analysts said this could flood the Brazilian 339 00:21:16,802 --> 00:21:20,361 Speaker 1: market with cheap US ethanol, a big problem for the 340 00:21:20,442 --> 00:21:28,242 Speaker 1: producers in landlocked Brazilian states like Monto Grosso No. And then, 341 00:21:28,601 --> 00:21:32,442 Speaker 1: at the last minute, amidst rising food prices and declining 342 00:21:32,482 --> 00:21:37,161 Speaker 1: approval ratings, Trump rolled back the tariffs on Brazil in 343 00:21:37,282 --> 00:21:38,442 Speaker 1: late twenty twenty five. 344 00:21:39,081 --> 00:21:41,802 Speaker 15: The White House appears to be responding to growing frustration 345 00:21:41,882 --> 00:21:45,081 Speaker 15: among consumers and photers on the issue of inflation and 346 00:21:45,121 --> 00:21:48,081 Speaker 15: the cost of food, the President announcing late yesterday that 347 00:21:48,121 --> 00:21:53,522 Speaker 15: he's rolling back tariffs on additional imports from Brazil, including fruit, coffee, cocoa, 348 00:21:53,682 --> 00:21:54,242 Speaker 15: and beef. 349 00:21:54,762 --> 00:21:57,802 Speaker 1: But then he turned around and put blanket tariffs on 350 00:21:57,962 --> 00:22:01,682 Speaker 1: everyone for everything, less than the initial threat to Brazil, 351 00:22:01,762 --> 00:22:05,721 Speaker 1: but still around three times what Brazilian farmers were paying before, 352 00:22:06,162 --> 00:22:09,482 Speaker 1: which effectively does away with the idea of importing cheap 353 00:22:09,682 --> 00:22:13,282 Speaker 1: Brazilian ethanol to make sustainable jet fuel in the United States. 354 00:22:17,762 --> 00:22:20,962 Speaker 1: Now things are in limbo on the trade front. The 355 00:22:20,962 --> 00:22:25,162 Speaker 1: White House's investigation into Brazil's trade practices is still ongoing, 356 00:22:25,561 --> 00:22:29,202 Speaker 1: the tariffs are embroiled in court battles, and who knows 357 00:22:29,282 --> 00:22:33,962 Speaker 1: what Trump might announce next. Meanwhile, the US israel invasion 358 00:22:33,962 --> 00:22:37,202 Speaker 1: of Iran has driven up demand for ethanol, both within 359 00:22:37,321 --> 00:22:41,402 Speaker 1: Brazil and beyond. Brazilian President Lula de Silva has once 360 00:22:41,442 --> 00:22:46,321 Speaker 1: again been talking about Brazil as the Saudi Arabia of biofuel. 361 00:22:46,962 --> 00:22:51,361 Speaker 16: But of course, here in Germany, using a German made 362 00:22:51,361 --> 00:22:54,962 Speaker 16: book and with the help of a German technician, we 363 00:22:54,962 --> 00:22:58,201 Speaker 16: were able to prove that our bio fuel is the 364 00:22:58,242 --> 00:23:03,921 Speaker 16: most extraordinary fuel in the world because it produces ninety 365 00:23:03,922 --> 00:23:08,722 Speaker 16: percent less THEO two emissions, it reduces COEO two. 366 00:23:08,561 --> 00:23:15,121 Speaker 4: Costs by sixty seven. That's why I said yesterday that 367 00:23:15,321 --> 00:23:20,161 Speaker 4: Brazil is preparing to become the Saudi Arabia of biofuel. 368 00:23:20,841 --> 00:23:22,601 Speaker 5: You know, to be the side of Arabia is like 369 00:23:22,841 --> 00:23:25,202 Speaker 5: you produce a lot, but you don't consume a lot. 370 00:23:25,482 --> 00:23:28,402 Speaker 5: Therefore you're going to be the biggest export. And that 371 00:23:28,522 --> 00:23:30,921 Speaker 5: just ends up coming out from the fact that Brazil 372 00:23:30,962 --> 00:23:32,042 Speaker 5: has a huge amount of land. 373 00:23:32,321 --> 00:23:35,161 Speaker 1: The thing about these market based climate solutions is that 374 00:23:35,162 --> 00:23:41,442 Speaker 1: they're quite vulnerable to well market forces, and tariffs aren't 375 00:23:41,442 --> 00:23:44,561 Speaker 1: the only thing out of Rasstutter's control at the moment. 376 00:23:45,282 --> 00:23:50,282 Speaker 1: There's also the situation with sustainable aviation fuel. Brazil's going 377 00:23:50,321 --> 00:23:52,641 Speaker 1: for it in a big way, but the US under 378 00:23:52,682 --> 00:23:56,482 Speaker 1: Trump is not so sure. Some of the incentives that 379 00:23:56,522 --> 00:23:59,682 Speaker 1: were there when Bruce announced is Texas Sustainable Aviation Fuel 380 00:23:59,682 --> 00:24:04,202 Speaker 1: Refinery Summit next Gen are either gone or not quite 381 00:24:04,202 --> 00:24:08,042 Speaker 1: as good anymore, and Brazil faces an uphill battle getting 382 00:24:08,081 --> 00:24:11,842 Speaker 1: European buyers for corn as an all based sstainable aviation 383 00:24:11,962 --> 00:24:15,282 Speaker 1: fuel because it's known to have higher emissions than other 384 00:24:15,361 --> 00:24:20,282 Speaker 1: types of ethanol. For FS, success as a sustainable aviation 385 00:24:20,361 --> 00:24:24,081 Speaker 1: fuel supplier rests entirely on the way Brazil grows corn, 386 00:24:24,561 --> 00:24:29,242 Speaker 1: the second crop corn thing. Again, here's Corey explaining what 387 00:24:29,282 --> 00:24:29,882 Speaker 1: that means. 388 00:24:30,722 --> 00:24:31,602 Speaker 17: We're in Brazil. 389 00:24:32,162 --> 00:24:35,722 Speaker 18: You know, we can blame the cows, we can blame 390 00:24:35,762 --> 00:24:37,682 Speaker 18: the soipepeans blah. 391 00:24:37,522 --> 00:24:40,081 Speaker 17: Blah blah, you know, chicken or the egg orders the 392 00:24:40,081 --> 00:24:45,282 Speaker 17: deforestation come from right. Well, of course corn is the 393 00:24:45,402 --> 00:24:49,321 Speaker 17: second crop, so Brazil corn. 394 00:24:49,121 --> 00:24:52,682 Speaker 18: Kind of gets a pass, so to speak. 395 00:24:52,841 --> 00:24:56,842 Speaker 17: We're not clearing land to plant corn. The land has 396 00:24:56,882 --> 00:25:00,601 Speaker 17: already been clear. It's gopians, you get them. That's the 397 00:25:00,682 --> 00:25:06,802 Speaker 17: first crop. That's what's given the carbon waiting, Oh, heavy 398 00:25:06,841 --> 00:25:07,561 Speaker 17: carbon waiting. 399 00:25:08,522 --> 00:25:12,762 Speaker 1: This is important for sustainable aviation fuel because second crop corn, 400 00:25:12,962 --> 00:25:17,002 Speaker 1: by virtue of coming second, gets a lower carbon score 401 00:25:17,081 --> 00:25:20,601 Speaker 1: than regular old corn. So whereas in the US farmers 402 00:25:20,601 --> 00:25:23,441 Speaker 1: have to tap into carbon capture to lower their score, 403 00:25:23,722 --> 00:25:26,962 Speaker 1: in Brazil, if they use second crop, it already starts 404 00:25:26,962 --> 00:25:31,282 Speaker 1: out lower. Then adding carbon capture only sweetens the deal. 405 00:25:32,081 --> 00:25:35,682 Speaker 1: FS hasn't started doing carbon capture yet, it's still building 406 00:25:35,802 --> 00:25:40,601 Speaker 1: its pilot project, but it's already marketing the idea of 407 00:25:40,841 --> 00:25:45,242 Speaker 1: negative emissions ethanol. Here's Lopez talking about it at last 408 00:25:45,321 --> 00:25:47,402 Speaker 1: year's UN Climate Summit in Brazil. 409 00:25:48,561 --> 00:25:50,962 Speaker 18: As far as I'm concerned this is probably one of 410 00:25:51,002 --> 00:25:54,081 Speaker 18: the one of the few very BEX. 411 00:25:53,922 --> 00:25:57,081 Speaker 10: Projects in the superser of the world, or generating the 412 00:25:57,121 --> 00:26:00,681 Speaker 10: first global carbon negative at them all in the world. 413 00:26:01,522 --> 00:26:05,641 Speaker 1: That word he used, their BEX that stands for bio 414 00:26:05,841 --> 00:26:10,201 Speaker 1: energy with carbon capture and sequestration. It's the thing the 415 00:26:10,242 --> 00:26:13,121 Speaker 1: fossil feeling the street is marketing these days as the 416 00:26:13,162 --> 00:26:16,242 Speaker 1: way we can just keep burning fossil fuels while dealing 417 00:26:16,282 --> 00:26:21,442 Speaker 1: with emissions. Capturing emissions from power plants and industrial facilities 418 00:26:21,762 --> 00:26:26,002 Speaker 1: just hasn't really worked out. But they've positioned BES as 419 00:26:26,042 --> 00:26:30,762 Speaker 1: something that doesn't just reduce emissions, it actually removes them. 420 00:26:31,282 --> 00:26:35,841 Speaker 1: On paper, this gets described as negative emissions technology, something 421 00:26:35,841 --> 00:26:39,642 Speaker 1: that can actually remove emissions from the atmosphere because you're 422 00:26:39,762 --> 00:26:44,401 Speaker 1: growing plants which absorb carbon dioxide, and then you're turning 423 00:26:44,442 --> 00:26:48,642 Speaker 1: them into fuel, but not emitting anything because theoretically you're 424 00:26:48,722 --> 00:26:52,522 Speaker 1: capturing all the emissions along the way. Whether all this 425 00:26:52,561 --> 00:26:55,282 Speaker 1: stuff that looks great on a spreadsheet or in a 426 00:26:55,402 --> 00:27:00,161 Speaker 1: model actually translates to less emissions in the atmosphere is 427 00:27:00,242 --> 00:27:04,002 Speaker 1: a whole other question, and one that businessmen are not 428 00:27:04,081 --> 00:27:08,762 Speaker 1: concerning themselves with. It certainly sounds green but then Corey 429 00:27:08,802 --> 00:27:10,682 Speaker 1: said something to me that didn't add up. 430 00:27:13,402 --> 00:27:17,122 Speaker 19: Okay, so you said that the soybean has gone up 431 00:27:17,361 --> 00:27:21,522 Speaker 19: like you know, say one point five x and y corn. 432 00:27:22,962 --> 00:27:25,161 Speaker 19: Does that mean that some of the corn is not 433 00:27:25,402 --> 00:27:28,161 Speaker 19: second crop then or is it a different crop that 434 00:27:28,202 --> 00:27:30,002 Speaker 19: they're doing the second crop corn with? 435 00:27:31,442 --> 00:27:31,722 Speaker 9: It is. 436 00:27:38,002 --> 00:27:39,002 Speaker 10: Very bad question. 437 00:27:42,482 --> 00:27:46,042 Speaker 1: So maybe some of the second crop corn is actually 438 00:27:46,321 --> 00:27:49,121 Speaker 1: first crop corn, and we have no way of knowing. 439 00:27:49,882 --> 00:27:52,522 Speaker 1: Once again, it all depends on the market. 440 00:27:53,442 --> 00:27:58,482 Speaker 17: Corn became king in twenty three, so. 441 00:27:58,762 --> 00:28:05,842 Speaker 18: Yes, you're f more with a ten twenty mile rabians. 442 00:28:05,121 --> 00:28:10,682 Speaker 17: Of an existing ethanol middle in matter girls, so there they. 443 00:28:10,601 --> 00:28:13,922 Speaker 18: Would a portion on their farm because of the bin 444 00:28:14,802 --> 00:28:19,682 Speaker 18: for getting new crop corn as quickly as possible. They 445 00:28:19,962 --> 00:28:23,002 Speaker 18: did plant first strapped corn. 446 00:28:23,522 --> 00:28:27,121 Speaker 17: Did They planted a first strap worn and the artist 447 00:28:27,162 --> 00:28:28,602 Speaker 17: of that were right as a wall. 448 00:28:29,042 --> 00:28:30,922 Speaker 18: And then we'll have it with the second drop parn 449 00:28:31,121 --> 00:28:32,282 Speaker 18: that happened one year. 450 00:28:32,722 --> 00:28:33,562 Speaker 5: It's ended on a bit. 451 00:28:34,402 --> 00:28:38,161 Speaker 18: It's possible we'll see first strap porn again. Plant it 452 00:28:38,282 --> 00:28:41,842 Speaker 18: in a few spots going into twenty twenty six, it 453 00:28:41,962 --> 00:28:46,322 Speaker 18: is possible you will see first crop corn expand in 454 00:28:46,482 --> 00:28:48,882 Speaker 18: Brazil definitely for the next corrupt year. 455 00:28:49,722 --> 00:28:53,202 Speaker 1: Corey, the Brazil based ad consultant, says that's all down 456 00:28:53,242 --> 00:28:56,282 Speaker 1: to ethanol. In other words, more and more land is 457 00:28:56,322 --> 00:29:00,042 Speaker 1: being converted to corn to supply the ethanol market. That's 458 00:29:00,082 --> 00:29:03,122 Speaker 1: we're thinking about if you're trying to determine the environmental 459 00:29:03,162 --> 00:29:06,402 Speaker 1: benefit of corn ethanol, because as you heard earlier in 460 00:29:06,442 --> 00:29:10,522 Speaker 1: the season, it's connected to high pesticide use and land grabbing. 461 00:29:11,402 --> 00:29:15,202 Speaker 1: Sustainable aviation fuel can be made from lots of other things, 462 00:29:15,402 --> 00:29:19,122 Speaker 1: different types of biofuels and waste cooking oil, for example. 463 00:29:19,682 --> 00:29:22,922 Speaker 1: It's considered a solid climate solution by a lot of folks, 464 00:29:23,362 --> 00:29:28,242 Speaker 1: primarily because there's not currently a great alternative for air travel. 465 00:29:29,322 --> 00:29:32,122 Speaker 1: As Sahai once put it to me, plainly, biofuels and 466 00:29:32,202 --> 00:29:35,682 Speaker 1: cars bad, biofuels and planes good. 467 00:29:37,322 --> 00:29:39,522 Speaker 5: Currently, we use a lot of fuel in cars that 468 00:29:39,602 --> 00:29:43,002 Speaker 5: we absolutely do not need to use anymore because of 469 00:29:43,082 --> 00:29:46,242 Speaker 5: this sort of electric technology revolution that has happened with 470 00:29:46,322 --> 00:29:50,482 Speaker 5: electric cars, so they're getting cheaper than internal combustion engine cars, 471 00:29:50,522 --> 00:29:53,322 Speaker 5: which basically has meant that for the first time in 472 00:29:53,322 --> 00:29:56,562 Speaker 5: one hundred years, oil use is not going up and 473 00:29:56,642 --> 00:29:59,082 Speaker 5: up and up. It's starting to go down and down 474 00:29:59,082 --> 00:30:03,082 Speaker 5: and down. So twenty eighteen was the last year where 475 00:30:03,202 --> 00:30:07,002 Speaker 5: internal combustion engine cars peaked. And so why am I 476 00:30:07,042 --> 00:30:09,722 Speaker 5: saying all of that, Well, basically, it means that the 477 00:30:10,282 --> 00:30:13,962 Speaker 5: market for for gasoline is going down downtown. 478 00:30:14,362 --> 00:30:18,562 Speaker 1: So I advis is various governments on industrial transition, as in, 479 00:30:18,762 --> 00:30:20,842 Speaker 1: if we're going to get off of fossil fuels, what 480 00:30:21,002 --> 00:30:25,402 Speaker 1: exactly does that look like for my country's entire manufacturing sector? 481 00:30:26,402 --> 00:30:26,842 Speaker 5: He says. 482 00:30:26,842 --> 00:30:31,242 Speaker 1: For Brazil, the biofuels industry is so large they're effectively 483 00:30:31,522 --> 00:30:34,002 Speaker 1: blocking electrification of vehicles. 484 00:30:34,722 --> 00:30:40,082 Speaker 5: The Brazilian auto industry became a completely unique island of 485 00:30:40,122 --> 00:30:43,202 Speaker 5: an auto industry in the world, where the Brazilian cause 486 00:30:43,242 --> 00:30:45,762 Speaker 5: of the only sort of country in the world that 487 00:30:45,882 --> 00:30:48,722 Speaker 5: you know, run on what they call flex fuel engines. 488 00:30:49,082 --> 00:30:51,322 Speaker 5: So you can chuck in gasoline in them, you can 489 00:30:51,402 --> 00:30:54,122 Speaker 5: chuck in ethanol in them and they just work. And 490 00:30:54,162 --> 00:30:56,482 Speaker 5: you can chuck in fifty sixty percent ethanol in them 491 00:30:56,482 --> 00:30:57,402 Speaker 5: and they still work. 492 00:30:57,882 --> 00:31:02,122 Speaker 1: The Brazilian biofuels industry is powerful. It's not just going 493 00:31:02,202 --> 00:31:04,882 Speaker 1: to go quietly into the night. Because there's a cheaper 494 00:31:04,922 --> 00:31:08,122 Speaker 1: and more sustainable option for cars now in the form 495 00:31:08,242 --> 00:31:10,082 Speaker 1: of electric vehicles. 496 00:31:09,882 --> 00:31:13,562 Speaker 5: And so that has created sort of a panic amongst 497 00:31:13,602 --> 00:31:18,602 Speaker 5: agribusiness interests where they basically realize that they are joined 498 00:31:18,602 --> 00:31:21,762 Speaker 5: at the hip with the internal combustion engine, and if 499 00:31:22,002 --> 00:31:25,402 Speaker 5: internal combustion engines go down, well, what happens to them? 500 00:31:25,842 --> 00:31:29,962 Speaker 1: Sustainable aviation fuel is seen as a solution to this problem. 501 00:31:30,162 --> 00:31:33,242 Speaker 1: It's something that government can offer. The biofuels industry is 502 00:31:33,402 --> 00:31:37,762 Speaker 1: kind of a consolation prize for slowly losing the transportation market. 503 00:31:38,002 --> 00:31:41,522 Speaker 1: If they can dangle a shiny new trillion dollar market 504 00:31:41,602 --> 00:31:44,921 Speaker 1: in front of these guys, the thinking goes, maybe they 505 00:31:44,962 --> 00:31:47,602 Speaker 1: won't fight the electrification of vehicles so much. 506 00:31:48,162 --> 00:31:48,242 Speaker 2: So. 507 00:31:48,522 --> 00:31:51,961 Speaker 1: There's a demand for sustainable aviation fuel and it's increasing, 508 00:31:52,602 --> 00:31:56,082 Speaker 1: but there's not enough supply market opportunity anyone. 509 00:31:56,442 --> 00:31:59,242 Speaker 5: And if you could turn that ethanol and find a 510 00:31:59,282 --> 00:32:02,522 Speaker 5: way to make jet fuel in a refinery out of ethanol, 511 00:32:02,762 --> 00:32:06,402 Speaker 5: then wouldn't that solve our problem? Both of these problems, 512 00:32:06,442 --> 00:32:08,882 Speaker 5: the reduction in demand and the fact that we need 513 00:32:08,922 --> 00:32:11,682 Speaker 5: to supply not just like one percent of the words 514 00:32:11,802 --> 00:32:14,562 Speaker 5: jet field, which is what we currently do with green 515 00:32:14,642 --> 00:32:16,922 Speaker 5: jet field, but one hundred percent of the word's jet 516 00:32:16,962 --> 00:32:18,962 Speaker 5: field over the next twenty or thirty years. 517 00:32:19,322 --> 00:32:22,842 Speaker 1: So HI draws a distinction between corn ethanol and ethanol 518 00:32:22,882 --> 00:32:27,482 Speaker 1: made from sugarcane, which still dominates the Brazilian market. He says, 519 00:32:27,522 --> 00:32:29,882 Speaker 1: since the sugar cane has grown in areas that were 520 00:32:29,922 --> 00:32:34,042 Speaker 1: cleared hundreds of years ago, it's less damaging, and sugar 521 00:32:34,122 --> 00:32:36,362 Speaker 1: is a more efficient way to make ethanol because it's 522 00:32:36,362 --> 00:32:41,522 Speaker 1: so high in starch. But Brazilian scientists don't necessarily agree. 523 00:32:41,762 --> 00:32:45,882 Speaker 1: Here's Lucas Ferrante, a biologist at the National Institute for 524 00:32:46,002 --> 00:32:47,202 Speaker 1: Amazonian Research. 525 00:32:48,082 --> 00:32:53,602 Speaker 20: Almost since sugarcane plantations have expanded into areas that were 526 00:32:53,642 --> 00:32:56,802 Speaker 20: altered or degraded by other crops, the perception has taken 527 00:32:56,882 --> 00:33:00,602 Speaker 20: hold that biofuels in Brazil do not cause deforestation. 528 00:33:01,642 --> 00:33:04,202 Speaker 14: And then this came into question when these crops started 529 00:33:04,202 --> 00:33:07,202 Speaker 14: appearing in the Amazon, because they will have to occupy 530 00:33:07,242 --> 00:33:10,962 Speaker 14: areas that were previously occupied by other crops, displacing them 531 00:33:11,242 --> 00:33:12,562 Speaker 14: and closing deforestation. 532 00:33:16,402 --> 00:33:20,322 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Sahai says corn ethanol is hard to make a 533 00:33:20,402 --> 00:33:24,402 Speaker 1: case for, even in the Brazilian second crop context. 534 00:33:24,922 --> 00:33:28,322 Speaker 5: From a neutral scientific perspective, you would say sugarcane ethanol 535 00:33:28,362 --> 00:33:32,442 Speaker 5: has lower carbon intensity, it's it's cleaner. Just use that, 536 00:33:32,562 --> 00:33:37,562 Speaker 5: don't use corn. But all accounting is political, and all 537 00:33:37,602 --> 00:33:42,162 Speaker 5: of how subsidy design is political. So what you're essentially 538 00:33:42,162 --> 00:33:44,242 Speaker 5: going to get is this kind of rear god kind 539 00:33:44,242 --> 00:33:47,602 Speaker 5: of stop gap action by the corn gruers to make 540 00:33:47,642 --> 00:33:50,122 Speaker 5: sure that they qualify for every country's subsidies. 541 00:33:51,282 --> 00:33:54,802 Speaker 1: Something not being a good climate solution has never stopped 542 00:33:54,882 --> 00:33:59,602 Speaker 1: agribusiness from making money off of it. Bruce Rastutter's problem 543 00:33:59,802 --> 00:34:04,802 Speaker 1: isn't environmental, though it's economic. Summit doesn't produce corn ethanol 544 00:34:04,842 --> 00:34:08,402 Speaker 1: in the US, and US corn producers don't do second 545 00:34:08,402 --> 00:34:11,681 Speaker 1: crop corn. The only ways to get corn ethanol to 546 00:34:11,722 --> 00:34:15,882 Speaker 1: his sustainable aviation fuel refinery are to import cheap corn 547 00:34:15,922 --> 00:34:19,282 Speaker 1: ethanol from Brazil or get the dozens of ethanol refineries 548 00:34:19,282 --> 00:34:22,681 Speaker 1: who've signed on to the Midwest Carbon Express hooked up 549 00:34:22,681 --> 00:34:26,241 Speaker 1: to it and get their low carbon corn ethanol to Texas. 550 00:34:26,642 --> 00:34:30,201 Speaker 1: Both pieces of the puzzle are now in jeopardy, but 551 00:34:30,282 --> 00:34:33,282 Speaker 1: at the end of April Summit next Gen Bruce's saff 552 00:34:33,322 --> 00:34:38,281 Speaker 1: refinery in Texas quietly secured a permit for producing sustainable 553 00:34:38,282 --> 00:34:43,441 Speaker 1: aviation fuel from sugar cane ethanol. The US does not 554 00:34:43,562 --> 00:34:49,321 Speaker 1: produce sugarcane ethanol at commercial scale, so I wonder where 555 00:34:49,322 --> 00:34:55,362 Speaker 1: he'll be getting it from. You heard last time about 556 00:34:55,362 --> 00:34:59,281 Speaker 1: how Bruce has ventured into the Amazon, and his Brazilian 557 00:34:59,322 --> 00:35:03,762 Speaker 1: company FS Fueling Sustainability is now working to get carbon 558 00:35:03,802 --> 00:35:07,642 Speaker 1: capture approved there too. Brazil's regulation on carbon capture and 559 00:35:07,681 --> 00:35:11,681 Speaker 1: storage is still being shaped, and a lot of academics, politicians, 560 00:35:11,721 --> 00:35:15,321 Speaker 1: and businessmen have contributed suggestions to the government on it, 561 00:35:15,402 --> 00:35:21,642 Speaker 1: including Rastutter's Brazilian company FS. Their proposal encouraged lawmakers to 562 00:35:21,721 --> 00:35:25,602 Speaker 1: preserve the quote freedom of trade and coexistence of different 563 00:35:25,642 --> 00:35:31,161 Speaker 1: carbon markets, and highlighted the quote high technological and financial 564 00:35:31,282 --> 00:35:35,522 Speaker 1: value of CCS projects, emphasizing that their success depends on 565 00:35:35,642 --> 00:35:40,761 Speaker 1: quote legal certainty and regulatory conditions that favor new investments. 566 00:35:41,442 --> 00:35:44,922 Speaker 1: It also suggested that CCS be a priority activity for 567 00:35:45,002 --> 00:35:50,002 Speaker 1: investment in the Amazon, and recommended a simplification of mechanisms 568 00:35:50,042 --> 00:35:54,962 Speaker 1: that enable the international trade of carbon credits from CCS projects. 569 00:35:55,442 --> 00:35:57,682 Speaker 1: We've already talked about how the company has a friendly 570 00:35:57,762 --> 00:36:01,162 Speaker 1: relationship with the government, but it's not winning every battle 571 00:36:01,282 --> 00:36:04,402 Speaker 1: just yet. All the things Corey tried to warn Bruce 572 00:36:04,402 --> 00:36:06,402 Speaker 1: and the guys about when it comes to trying to 573 00:36:06,482 --> 00:36:09,122 Speaker 1: farm the Amazon are holding true. 574 00:36:09,362 --> 00:36:11,602 Speaker 10: You're at the mold of the Amazon don't have all 575 00:36:11,602 --> 00:36:14,762 Speaker 10: this Matro grosso Bs to deal with with getting stuff 576 00:36:14,802 --> 00:36:18,761 Speaker 10: to market, so to speak. So look at the map. 577 00:36:18,922 --> 00:36:23,562 Speaker 10: But the local culture is not like the Germans and 578 00:36:23,602 --> 00:36:28,281 Speaker 10: the Italians in Mantro Rosso it is quite different. And 579 00:36:28,322 --> 00:36:35,042 Speaker 10: that gets back to Brazilian you know, cultural sensitivity per region. Gringoes. 580 00:36:35,201 --> 00:36:38,002 Speaker 10: You know, people from Iowa tend to overlook that you know, 581 00:36:38,082 --> 00:36:41,562 Speaker 10: that's been up and down there, They've had their challenges there. 582 00:36:41,802 --> 00:36:43,721 Speaker 10: I kind of told them not to go there to 583 00:36:43,762 --> 00:36:45,482 Speaker 10: begin with, and then they asked me with on a 584 00:36:45,522 --> 00:36:48,441 Speaker 10: tour to help interpret because they wanted to buy more land. 585 00:36:48,482 --> 00:36:52,002 Speaker 10: I said, you probably shouldn't. It's not a bag. Yeah, 586 00:36:52,122 --> 00:36:55,402 Speaker 10: it's just you're dealing with locals that have no knowledge 587 00:36:55,442 --> 00:36:59,042 Speaker 10: of large equipment, don't know how to run anything. You know, 588 00:36:59,362 --> 00:37:03,082 Speaker 10: how much time are you willing to spend on education 589 00:37:04,082 --> 00:37:07,161 Speaker 10: the locals? You know what I mean? They have no 590 00:37:07,282 --> 00:37:12,562 Speaker 10: idea what modern egg is, so your brain egg three 591 00:37:12,602 --> 00:37:17,802 Speaker 10: point zero into an egg zero point five. You know. Culture. 592 00:37:18,842 --> 00:37:21,441 Speaker 1: Things could wind up working out well for Bruce on 593 00:37:21,642 --> 00:37:26,082 Speaker 1: both continents. Like his business partners in Brazil, he seems 594 00:37:26,122 --> 00:37:29,602 Speaker 1: to land on his feet. But whether these particular ventures 595 00:37:29,642 --> 00:37:34,201 Speaker 1: succeed or not, they've already had an impact. They've completely 596 00:37:34,241 --> 00:37:38,402 Speaker 1: transformed Monto Grosso. They've cemented a role for corn ethanol 597 00:37:38,562 --> 00:37:42,802 Speaker 1: in multiple markets, including now in the sustainable aviation fuels market, 598 00:37:42,882 --> 00:37:46,002 Speaker 1: and they've helped to tilt the market in favor of 599 00:37:46,241 --> 00:37:51,321 Speaker 1: climate solutions that come with some pretty big environmental problems. 600 00:37:52,282 --> 00:37:55,201 Speaker 1: Next time, what that looks like globally and whether the 601 00:37:55,282 --> 00:38:00,201 Speaker 1: genie can ever be put back in the bottle. We 602 00:38:00,282 --> 00:38:03,321 Speaker 1: reached out to Bruce Rastetter, some at Agricultural Group, some 603 00:38:03,442 --> 00:38:07,362 Speaker 1: at Carbon Solutions, Harold Ham fs Paalo and Marino Franz, 604 00:38:07,522 --> 00:38:11,562 Speaker 1: Miguel vas Ribero, and all Brazilian and US government agencies 605 00:38:11,721 --> 00:38:15,562 Speaker 1: mentioned in this season. They all declined interviews, but we 606 00:38:15,642 --> 00:38:19,882 Speaker 1: have incorporated responses from their spokespeople throughout. 607 00:38:26,482 --> 00:38:30,562 Speaker 6: Carbon Cowboys. Cowboys of the Sejadu is a collaboration between 608 00:38:30,642 --> 00:38:32,402 Speaker 6: Drilled and The Intercept to Brazil. 609 00:38:32,721 --> 00:38:36,361 Speaker 1: The show was reported and written by Philippe Sabrina and 610 00:38:36,442 --> 00:38:37,761 Speaker 1: me Amy Westerveld. 611 00:38:38,161 --> 00:38:41,922 Speaker 6: Our editors are Audrey Quin in the US and Alicia 612 00:38:41,922 --> 00:38:43,201 Speaker 6: DeSouza in Brazil. 613 00:38:43,482 --> 00:38:47,402 Speaker 1: Additional reporting from Lasa Rossour. Our senior producer and sound 614 00:38:47,402 --> 00:38:51,642 Speaker 1: designer is Martin saltz Ostwek. Audio production and sound design 615 00:38:51,721 --> 00:38:56,962 Speaker 1: in Brazil by Marcia Heberdoza and Philippe MoOx. The amazing 616 00:38:57,482 --> 00:39:01,761 Speaker 1: Lula voiceover in this episode was gifted to us by 617 00:39:01,842 --> 00:39:02,882 Speaker 1: Gabrielle Rubin. 618 00:39:03,602 --> 00:39:06,442 Speaker 6: Theme song and original music by Eric Terrena. 619 00:39:06,882 --> 00:39:10,602 Speaker 1: Additional music by Martin saltz Ostwick. Our engineer is. 620 00:39:10,602 --> 00:39:13,922 Speaker 6: Peter artwork for Drild is by Matt Fleming. 621 00:39:14,482 --> 00:39:17,602 Speaker 1: US fact checking from Naomi bar Brazil. 622 00:39:17,721 --> 00:39:19,761 Speaker 6: Fact checking by Istujo Frontea. 623 00:39:20,122 --> 00:39:22,801 Speaker 1: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First 624 00:39:22,842 --> 00:39:27,042 Speaker 1: Amendment Project. We are also proud members of Reporter Shield. 625 00:39:27,562 --> 00:39:31,722 Speaker 1: Big thanks also to Andrew Fishman, president of The Intercept Brazil. 626 00:39:32,482 --> 00:39:35,122 Speaker 6: Driald is distributed by Bushkin Industries. 627 00:39:35,681 --> 00:39:39,642 Speaker 1: Huge thanks to the team there, including Greta Cohen, Eric Sandler, 628 00:39:39,802 --> 00:39:45,282 Speaker 1: Grace Ross, Morgan Rattner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, 629 00:39:45,762 --> 00:39:50,201 Speaker 1: Brian Treberneck and Jake Flanagan. To hear the Portuguese version 630 00:39:50,241 --> 00:39:53,802 Speaker 1: of this series, head over to The Intercept Brazil's site, 631 00:39:54,201 --> 00:39:57,681 Speaker 1: or search for The Intercept Brazil's podcast feed wherever you 632 00:39:57,802 --> 00:40:13,162 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts.