1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: H what wasn't my Sophie, Sophie, I'm just trying. I'm 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: trying to recapture that what's boiling my pig Anus's energy? 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: That I still like. 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 2: The class what's cracking my peppers? That's still one of 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: my favorite ones you've ever done. I know it's been 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 2: four years. 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Again never again, fine, just going to make it more 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: and more off putting. You know, you know, what's trafficking 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: my children? 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: That kind of stuff just going to be a problem us. 11 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Uh well, this is Behind the Bastards podcast Worse 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: People tell you all about them? Uh and today getting 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: behind really behind the Nazis by getting behind the Swastika 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: with Chelsea Weber Smith. 15 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 3: Oh, this has been so interesting so far, and I 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: just have no idea really where it's going. So thanks 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 3: for having me here and taking me on this journey. 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. Chelsea Weber Smith, whose podcast 19 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: American Hysteria is pretty cool and people should check out Chelsea. 20 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 3: Yes you ready, I'm ready, are ready? 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: And then a bunch of like anyway, I don't know 22 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: why I hate that. 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: That's who we are now. 24 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: That's like so our uh uh well, I probably shouldn't 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: tell that story. But I come across periodically old pieces 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: of like Nazi paraphernalia. It's a it's a hazard of 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: the job. And there's definitely been a few times when 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: I've been like, oh, that would be an interesting like 29 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: that book would be interesting to have because of you know, 30 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: this person who signed it, and then like, no, I 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: don't need that in my house. What am I? What 32 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: am I doing? You're you're you're you don't you don't 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: want to. 34 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: Have this, Robert, this haunted ass book. 35 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, this haunted ass Nazi book. I was given through 36 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: someone else, a like family heirloom that was an old 37 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: Hitler youth dagger, and I had no idea what to 38 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: do with it, so I just kind of like put 39 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: it in my trash pile out in the yard and 40 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: it's just slowly decaying, which I think is the right 41 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: thing to do with a Hitler youth dagger. 42 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: Was that the one that was mailed to the corporate office? 43 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. We get all sorts 44 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: of weird stuff. So in the late nineteen twenties and 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: early nineteen thirties you might have heard about this. The 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: Nazis rise to power, they solidify their grip on power, 47 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, and while sort of the while the Nazis 48 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: are kind of like moving up in their inevitable kind 49 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: of like path towards taking control of the German government. 50 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: There's all sorts of fighting in the street. You know. 51 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: You got your old timey anti fascists, both kind of 52 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: social democrats and communists, you know, duking it out with 53 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: the Nazis in the streets. And these street fights, these 54 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: big brawls, these murders and assassinations are kind of a 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: regular call of fascination in the world media, right, Like, 56 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: they get a lot of attention in the American newspapers 57 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 1: in particular, and so they start sending over reporters to 58 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: cover all of this unrest in Weimar, Germany. In nineteen 59 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: twenty seven, an American journalist from Town and Country magazine 60 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: traveled to Austria to report on fighting between local social 61 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: democrats and Nazi aligned fascists. Being a dumb American, this person, 62 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: she did not worry much about the fact that she 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: had gone to Austria in nineteen twenty seven with her 64 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: girls club ring which bore a swastika on it. 65 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 4: So she's gotlub Yeah, she's. 66 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: Like showing up to like embed with the social democrat 67 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: like street fighting gangs, and she's got a swastika ring, 68 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: and like one of these guys has to take her 69 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: aside and be like, I can't be wearing that here, 70 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: Like I know you don't mean it, but you gotta 71 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: take that thing off. 72 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 3: God, that is amazing. 73 00:03:58,480 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: That's so funny. 74 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: Oh, it's amazing. Well, history is so rich. 75 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: History is rich. But also there have always been you know, 76 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: as someone who's done conflict reporting, I know a lot 77 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: of great journalists, a lot of people I respect a lot, 78 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: but the majority of journalists who do that kind of 79 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: work are always like shitheads, right, and like it is 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: a shitheaded thing to like go to travel to like 81 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: report on the fighting between these Nazis and these other 82 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: groups and not be like should I bring my swastika ring? 83 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: Like maybe I should leave this at You did not 84 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 1: do that much research. 85 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you didn't possess the very most basic knowledge that 86 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 3: you would need to report for newspaper off those events. 87 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: It is nineteen twenty seven, you had some time. 88 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: Wow, Yeah, sloppy, sloppy. 89 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: Six years later, in nineteen thirty three, Hitler had been 90 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: made Chancellor of Germany. This obviously supercharged international resistance to 91 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: the regime, and American anti fascists held a rally in 92 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: New York City to protest the newly minted dictator. One 93 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: journalist with The New Yorker showed up to cover the 94 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: event and realized very quickly that his pocket watch, which 95 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: wasngraved with a swastika, might be a bad thing to 96 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: have out on the street with it. Right, Like, really again, 97 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: but it does kind of show I'm making fun of 98 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: these people, and I think they should be. But it 99 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: does show you, like how banal it was seen as, 100 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: where like somebody might show up and be like, oh, fuck, 101 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: I can't have this thing on me. I didn't realize 102 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: this would be a problem. Yeah. Yeah. Starting in the 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: early thirties, American use of the swastika began to decline, 104 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: and this was matched throughout much of the Western world. 105 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: For reasons I probably don't need to spend too much 106 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: time on, right, not not surprising that it does start 107 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: to decline in its kind of anadyne usage. In Nazi Germany, 108 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: the new regime actually encouraged this at first. The ubiquity 109 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: of the symbol had been good for them right in 110 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: the early years when they're rising to power. It's free 111 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: pr but now they're in power, and the hundreds of 112 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: men have died fighting under the swastikab so it has 113 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: become this kind of holy symbol of sacrifice. And once 114 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: they're in power, the Nazis kind of find it horrifying 115 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: that some company might use it to sell coffee. In 116 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three, Joseph Gerbels announced the Law for Protection 117 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: of National Symbols. Quote. If the symbol is used on 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: an object or in connection with it, it may only 119 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: be used if the object itself has an interrelation to 120 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: the symbol. The use of symbols for publicity purposes is 121 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: in any case forbidden. So basically this law means you 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: can't use a swastika to sell a cigar or whatever, 123 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: right unless it's like you're doing a fundraiser for the 124 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: Nazi Party, then you can probably get away with it. 125 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: For the Nazis, the swastika then had come full circle 126 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: from a symbol that they co opted to mainstream their 127 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: image to a sacred object restricted from commercial use unless 128 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: that commercial use was Nazi in origin. This created problems 129 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: for a number of people, particularly people outside of Nazi 130 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: Germany and Some of those people were Canadians who lived 131 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: in the quaint northern Ontario town of Swastika, named after Yeah, 132 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: just picking up the news one morning, like you know, 133 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: you're living out in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you 134 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: don't check in for a while, and then like you 135 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: see that like Hitler's taking power in Germany and you 136 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: look at the banner behind him, like, oh, fuck God, 137 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: this is going to be a problem for us. Swastikers 138 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: now Swastika Ontario woo. Swastika Ontario was named after the 139 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: Swastika gold mines staked in nineteen oh seven. The town 140 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: name was inspired by the Sanskrit symbol, not the other thing. 141 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: Several mines soon came to dot the boomtown, and all 142 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: of them were kind of Swastika themed. There was the 143 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: Swastika mine. There was also the Lucky Cross mine. In 144 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: nineteen forty, as the war breaks out, members of Swastika 145 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: or citizens of Swastika started to feel preture to change 146 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: the town name. There are a couple of articles at 147 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: the time where like people in town are like, we're 148 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: not changing the name. They don't get to take it 149 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: from us, Like this has been our name longer than 150 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: they've been using it, you know. But eventually the provincial 151 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: government overrules them and they send like I don't know, 152 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: mounties or whatever to take the swastika sign outside of 153 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: town and replace it with one that says Winston. 154 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: Winston doesn't have the same ring to it. 155 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. Yeah. 156 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: People should have owned like an NFL team with that energy. 157 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: Although it does make me think what if Hitler had 158 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: adopted as a symbol just a man named Winston or 159 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: maybe a carton of Winston cigarettes. You know, it is different. 160 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: World War Two. Yeah, a lot of Americans and Camels 161 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: writing to Nurember or to a fucking Normandy. So yeah, 162 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: they changed the town. The provincial government tries to change 163 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: the town name to Winston, and the Swastikas are so 164 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: adamant that, like, we're not going to change our town name. 165 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: They tear down the Winston sign and they put up 166 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: their own news sign for Swastika, telling reporters still with Hitler, 167 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: we came up with our name first. 168 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: Hey, I appreciate the dedication. 169 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 4: You know, this is where things g Yeah, I mean, 170 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 4: you know they're not wrong, right, like because it's not 171 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 4: their fault, you know. 172 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: Like that might not be the right hill to die on. 173 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. This is not the hill I would pick 174 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: to die on. Just my little town in Ontario has 175 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: the name, but it makes me think. So, Like, the 176 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: first big piece of like conflict reporting I did was 177 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: after the Botoclon massacre in two thousand and fifteen, when 178 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: Isis murdered dozens and dozens of people in France at 179 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: that like mass shooting type deal. I did this article 180 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: where I went through like eight or nine hundred pages 181 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: of like Isis propaganda and like wrote this thing about 182 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: their weird magazine. But like I remember, I spent like 183 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: two or three days just kind of like stuck in 184 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: my little office writing this thing, and then I go 185 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: out to like do laundry at the laundromat near my house, 186 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: which was the Isis laundromat. So I just remember like 187 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: looking up at it and being like, that's probably gonna 188 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: be a problem for you guys. 189 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: Man in the similar vein, we have a dry cleaner 190 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: that is just called Q cute. 191 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's not on you. 192 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 3: But I know if we did it first, they haven't 193 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: changed it. 194 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: There is another funny story about this of Swastika Mountain 195 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: in southern Oregon. Uh Now, Oregon has a famously bad 196 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: Nazi problem, so you might assume probably a dark. 197 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: History mountain is a combination of words. 198 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: Swastika Mountain in Oregon. Yeah, in Oregon. But no, it 199 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: was it was again, it predates the use of that. 200 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: It was just somebody, some guy decided call it Swastika Mountain. 201 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: It got renamed like a couple of years ago. It 202 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: was not all that law ago that that the state 203 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: was like, you probably shouldn't. 204 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 3: Have this, Like what year are we talking? Like a 205 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: couple of. 206 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: Years ago, Like not all that long ago that mountain 207 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: got renamed northwesterners. It wasn't a big it's not like 208 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: a major mountain, right, It's not like hood. It's not 209 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: one of your money mountains, you know. I also, I 210 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: can remember there's this farmhouse I used to spend a 211 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: lot of time in pretty old farmhouse outside of about 212 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: an hour and a half outside of Reading, in the 213 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: middle of fucking nowhere, north central California, that the original 214 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: owner had burnt into the wooden roof all of the 215 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: different cattle brands from different ranches in the area, and 216 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: one of them is a fucking swastika, and it was 217 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: one of knowing the area. Like I actually knew a 218 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: guy who had been in the Hitler youth as a 219 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: kid out there, although he was not a Nazi anymore. 220 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: You know, the warned when he was fourteen. It's not 221 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: really on him, but like seeing that and being like 222 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: just knowing the history. This could just be a thing 223 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: that people had way back in the day before the Nazis, 224 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: or it could be a Nazi ranch like rural California, 225 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: equally likely. 226 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: I looked it up. It's August twenty twenty two, the 227 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: Open Geographic Nemes Board confirmed that it would no longer 228 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: be called swastikamountains. 229 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: We did it, guys, We did it, guys. 230 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 3: They almost died on that hill. 231 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, God bless Oregon. Finally, Yeah, making progress. Everybody 232 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: really got that knocked out before the election. 233 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: But that's like, it's so fascinating that you can look 234 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: at that now and actually truly not know. I mean, 235 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: you can honestly know if you have a dividing line 236 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: of time, but with these certain like products, you don't 237 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: have like such a definitive line that happens where you're like, 238 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 3: this is not Nazi shit, this is Nazi Nazi shit, 239 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 3: you know, and we can say that without any doubt. 240 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 3: It's just I had no idea. 241 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty cool stuff. So the use of the swastika 242 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: as a fashion icon had started to fade, albeit uneven, 243 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: by the end of the nineteen thirties, as this segment 244 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: from a ride up in Slate makes clear. One incident 245 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six made that clear swastika motif receives 246 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: cold reception. Read a small headline in Women's Wear Daily 247 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty six, buttons crusted with swastika shown by 248 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: one couture house stirred up some comment among an audience 249 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: of New York buyers. The editors wrote, no sales of 250 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: this particular model are reported. Although no reason for this 251 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: chile response was given, it might be due to the 252 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: fact that many important New York department stores were owned 253 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: or founded by Jews, including b Altman, Bloomingdale's, Bergdorf Goodman, 254 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: Sax Fifth Avenue, and Macy's. Although the Women's Wear Daily 255 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: article left the designer of these buttons anonymous, Vogue also 256 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: reported on a fashion show featuring swastika buttons, identifying the 257 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: designer as Marcel rochas a well known French courtier. Unlike 258 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,359 Speaker 1: Women's wear daily, Vogue found the use of the swastika 259 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: to be amusing rather than disturbing. 260 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: Now eslately telling me it wasn't co Kerschanel. 261 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: There's a pretty I mean, like Coco. There's a pretty 262 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: good chance that Vogue had no problem at the swastika 263 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: because the people running it were pretty fucking racist and 264 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: kind of fans of the Nazis. They, along with many 265 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: other publications, were cautiously positive about Hitler in the lead 266 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: up to the war years. That same year, they ran 267 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: a spread showing the home decors of Hitler in his 268 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: mountain hideaway, including a prominent swastika cushion on his couch. 269 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: Slat says that this was an example of them humanizing 270 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: Hitler and trying to reinforce the domestic feel of the symbol. 271 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: They did also include a profile on British Prime Minister 272 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: Anthony Eden's house at the same time, so I don't know. 273 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: The article goes on. As late as nineteen thirty seven, 274 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: Good Housekeeping recommended creating a swastika out of cashews as 275 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: a cliver cake decoration. I know that's what I'm doing 276 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: my next birthday. Cashw swastika. Baby, Wow, you got a 277 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: nut allergy. That's a double problem right there. 278 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I wonder if your local grocery store would 279 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 3: go ahead and pop one in frosting. 280 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: Oh, just going there, try, Yeah. 281 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: Just going through my thirty seven issues of a Good 282 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: Housekeeping and uh yeah, they recommended this. Can you do 283 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: this cave for me? 284 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 3: This is what I want. 285 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: But in nineteen forty, the Boy Scouts finally decided they'd 286 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: had enough of the hook cross. At that year's jamboree 287 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: in Santiago, Chile, a vote was taken to abandon the 288 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: swastika due to the fact that Boy Scouts and Scout 289 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: leaders had been heckled and pelted with shit while marching 290 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: through streets with swastikas on their uniform And again, hard 291 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: to blame anyone in nineteen forty for seeing a bunch 292 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: of dudes in military style uniforms with white swastika. Isn't 293 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: going I'm gonna throw some stuff at those kids. 294 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: It's two late boys. You gotta give up the symbol. 295 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: Might have to fuck up a Boy Scout over this. 296 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: The Boy Scout order of the white swastika was, of course, 297 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: never sacred, and neither was really the town name of Swastika, Ontario. 298 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: But all of this does create a very serious problem 299 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: for the Navajo, the Papago, the Pa and the Hope people, 300 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: all of whom had used the swastika or the the 301 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: whirling log in various works of religious significance since time immemorial. Right, 302 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: this is a religious symbol for them. It is not 303 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: as simple as just oh, this weird decoration or name 304 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: that we used is problematic. Now we got to change it, 305 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: right Like, this is a thing that is a part 306 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: of religious observances, you know. But after the Nazi invasion 307 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: of France, representatives from each of these tribes, the Navajo, 308 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: the Papago, the Apache, and the Hope sign a proclamation 309 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: on the whirling log symbol because the above ornament, which 310 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: has been a symbol of friendship among our forefathers for 311 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: many centuries, has been desecrated recently by another nation of peoples. Therefore, 312 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: it is resolved that henceforth, from this date and forevermore, 313 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: our tribes renounced the use of the emblem commonly known 314 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: today as the swastika on our blankets, baskets, art objects, 315 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: sand paintings, and clothing. Now I want you to really 316 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: think about that, right, because they've done nothing wrong and 317 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: the Whirling Log has done nothing wrong. They are choosing 318 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: to give up a sacred symbol because of something a 319 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: completely different group of people across the world have done 320 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: with a version of that symbol as an act of 321 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: solidarity with their victims. And I want to be clear, 322 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: I'm not saying like this is the right thing or 323 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: not doing this would have been the wrong thing, because 324 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: I don't think it would have been wrong if they'd said, look, 325 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: this is our religious symbol. We're not going to change 326 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: it just because of these assholes, right, I think that 327 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: would have been fine too. I'm just saying that's a 328 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: really noteworthy decision to matter, especially prior to Yeah, I mean. 329 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 3: I think that's like it is, like you said, it 330 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: seems like an act of solidarity. We can't exactly know 331 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 3: what was going through their heads or their conversations, but 332 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: it does. I mean, what else could it be except 333 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 3: like we can no longer abide this, even if it's 334 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: like a huge important story in our culture. It's like, 335 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 3: what's more important is no longer allowing this symbol to 336 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 3: have a power that we don't consent to, Right, it's like, 337 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 3: no matter what. Now, I think it's it's obvious that this, 338 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: this horrible superpower has basically usurped the use of this 339 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: and it's just not going to Yeah, you know, it 340 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: just can no longer mean what it means to outsiders. 341 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 3: And maybe that would have been fine if it were 342 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 3: just like an internally used symbol, but yeah, what, it's 343 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 3: just like heartbreaking, it's really heartbreaking, very sack. 344 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do have there might be a darker reason, 345 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a number of things played into the 346 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: decision that they made. The darker part of my mind says, well, 347 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: maybe they were concerned they see what is gearing up, 348 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: and they think, like, well, if we go to war, 349 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, this is forties is before the US is 350 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: in the war. But like if the United States goes 351 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: to war with the Germans, it might be dangerous for 352 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: us to like have this on shit, right, Like we 353 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: might fucking we might people, This might call some of 354 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: our people to get targeted, right. That may have also 355 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: been a factor. I don't that's certainly not like a 356 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: thing that they write out here. I do think it 357 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: was probably more just like a solidarity and also like, yeah, 358 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 1: just an acknowledgment of the I mean a lot of 359 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: Navajo people, a lot of Hope people. You know, a 360 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: lot of Apache people are going to wind up fighting 361 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: against the Nazis too, So yeah, it's anyway, it's a 362 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: remarkable moment and kind of I think worth acknowledging. So 363 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: we all know the next part of the story, right, 364 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: you got your World War two, the Nazis, you know, 365 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: you're doing some stuff, and then America, without anyone else's help, 366 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: wins the war, right you know, that's I think everyone's 367 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: familiar with the gist of the story. So during the 368 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: war years, it becomes dangerous to be associated with the 369 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: Nazis and the swastika. Laura Ingalls, a pilot and a 370 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: Nazi sympathizer, is put on trial in nineteen forty two 371 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: and her swastika bracelet is brought up as evidence of 372 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: for fascist leadings Ingles claims it was just an Indian 373 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: symbol for good luck, but she is convicted of failing 374 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: to register as an enemy agent, although her swastika bracelet 375 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: apparently didn't factor into this, but it does get brought 376 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: up in the trial. The war ends, the swastika gets 377 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: falls and as a political symbol. You know, it becomes 378 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: profoundly toxic, particularly after knowledge of the Holocaust becomes more widespread. 379 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: This leads to its disappearance from like, you know, anodyne 380 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: normal products that like a person would want to have 381 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,400 Speaker 1: in their house. But it does not lead to its 382 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 1: disappearance from popular products. It just causes a change in 383 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: the kind of products that it shows up on. Stephen 384 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 1: Heller writes quote. It was used increasingly on paperback book 385 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: covers for spy and mystery yarns, and on covers for 386 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: men's pulp adventure magazines. Even today, the most common sanctioned 387 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: mainstream use of the mark is on jackets for fiction 388 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: and nonfiction books with World War Two themes. In the 389 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: late forties and fifties, the male public's fascination with things 390 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: Nazi was disturbingly fetishistic, and to an extent it still is. 391 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: Yet publishers knew what they were doing. From a marketing standpoint. 392 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: The swastika was such an identifiable icon, a magnet, so 393 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: to speak, that a browser could perceive content without ever 394 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: reading the title. It is indeed ironic that the swastika 395 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: has evolved from benevolent sign to sinister national emblem to 396 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: a veritable point of purchase display in only a few generations. 397 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: And he provides a really interesting example of this that 398 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: Svie's going to show you from the men's magazine World 399 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: of Men. 400 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 3: We got the Girls, We got the Men. 401 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: So you've got this big two thirds of it is 402 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 1: this illustration of like a Nazi He's sticking his bayonet 403 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: into a woman's a very blonde, white woman's breast. There's 404 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: a big swastika very visible on his bicep. There's another 405 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: swastika on this train behind him that's full of Nazi soldiers. 406 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: There's a woman behind her who's got like a strapless 407 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: shirt on that's like she looks like she's being taken 408 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: into custody or something like that by these Nazis. And 409 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 1: then the title of uh the the apparent story that 410 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: these pictures are for is lust slaves of Hitler's Walsap butcher. 411 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: Oh god, wow, the mistress demands soft flesh. 412 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 3: I was gonna say, that's one of the other big stories. 413 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: There's a lot of great stories in this episode. Now, Chelsea, 414 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: I'm not a word cop, but I will say you 415 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: never need to use the phrase lust slaves. That's never 416 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: a necessary term. There's no need to ever use the 417 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: phrase lust slave. 418 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: No, it should really be retired from Yeah. 419 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: How to master today is sex Starved Woman? 420 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? It's another article in World. 421 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: You were with a Bayonet Avenue call Girl. 422 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, revealed sin capers have turned on co Ed's 423 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: Man World of Men. Yeah, because bloody horror. 424 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 425 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: Uh what an incredible magazine now the cover shows Yeah, 426 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: so it's great stuff. Now, when I saw this incredible magazine, 427 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: absolute work of historical art, I knew I had a 428 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: sacred duty to try and find a copy, and unfortunately 429 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: I couldn't. But the Internet archive does have a collection 430 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: of men's magazines from the fifties and sixties, and I 431 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: will promise you all we'll do a whole episode going 432 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: through some of these in the future because they look incredible. 433 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: Here's one cover that I just want to talk about. 434 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with Nazis, but it's glorious. Chelsea, 435 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: look at this, Sofie. 436 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: Let's see it. 437 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, chelsee Oh. 438 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: Teen Sororities, Schools for Free Love, Passion and Orgies exposed 439 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: suburban sex cults, how they operate Exclusive Beware the World 440 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: of Lust Without Love and it's like a picture of 441 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: a shake and there is a Nazi. Actually the swastika 442 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: is not fully visible, but there's like a shake and 443 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: a Nazi tying a woman in a red dress to 444 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: a palm tree, and she actually has pawns for the 445 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: reds shafts of steel. 446 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 3: There's also a real picture of a woman on this 447 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 3: one up there. 448 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: There is a real picture of a woman. She looks 449 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: like she is topless. I'm guessing these are kind of 450 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: playboy Yeah, yeah, she looks great. 451 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: She looks great. 452 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: Helpless brides of the lash in Satan's hell. 453 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 3: That's what I want. I want all that satanic panic content, 454 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 3: all that early sex cult panic. Yeah. 455 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: Look, these are there's problematic aspects of this, but I 456 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: think we can all agree the people who wrote these 457 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: titles used the English language in a way that is 458 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: unique and beautiful. Hey everyone, Robert here, As you've noticed, 459 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: my audio just took the dive in quality. That is 460 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: because my zoom recorder died forever, irrevocably while we were 461 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: recording this episode, and I did not notice it because 462 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: I was lost in the heat of the moment. Which 463 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: is also a pretty good song by the band Asia anyway, 464 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: I I don't know why my zoom died. Perhaps it 465 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: was the crypto fascists, you know, trying to stop this 466 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: episode from airing. Perhaps it was the Reds using the 467 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: crypto fascists as cover in order to stop my investigation 468 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: into their lust slave cartel. We'll never know, but I 469 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: do apologize. My audio for the rest of this episode 470 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: will be the Zoom safety audio we used and is 471 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: a slightly lower quality. 472 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 3: Yes, they definitely knew how to get attention. Are you 473 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 3: following with Jack Chick? 474 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: Oh? God, yes, absolutely, we just did. 475 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 3: We just did a three parter on Jack Chick, The 476 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 3: King the Gohast. 477 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 478 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 3: It just reminds me a little bit, you know, totally 479 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 3: different like motivations, but very similar pulpy, you know, extreme content. 480 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: Jack Chick is actually the primary sponsor of this podcast. 481 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: So we're worried about going to hell because you've been 482 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: reading men's magazines from the nineteen fifties. You are to 483 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: come on and help you out right after this. Ah, 484 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: we're back, boy, My soul fields cleansed. Oh I'm not 485 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: even thinking about helpless Brides of the Lash and Satan's 486 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: Hell anymore, Chelsea. 487 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 3: No, I've got a new Lord and Savior. 488 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: A new Lord and Savior. 489 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 490 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: I could look at these magazines for hours and we 491 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: will soon, don't worry, folks. 492 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 3: I hope. 493 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: So while the use of the swastika in Western nations 494 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: was confined to bad guys and entertainment media for decades, 495 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: elsewhere in the world it did have occasional resurgences. And 496 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: this brings us back to India. Now India again, it's 497 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: both pretty distant from Nazi aggression. The Nazis aren't really 498 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: a threat in the subcontinent, and it's also a place 499 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: where swastikas are a very popular religious symbol. One of 500 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: the weird things I spent months living in Northeast India, 501 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: primarily Delhi, and one of the things that was always 502 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: really I mean, at first, at least there's a week 503 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: two it was weird and then it became kind of normal. 504 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: It is like right in the front of like many houses, 505 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: there's just a swastika. Now it's not the same, like 506 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: it's reversed. There's usually like a series of dots and 507 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: stuff around it. But it's a very common decoration on 508 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: the front of houses. Now, the fact that the swastika 509 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: in you know, Hindu culture particularly has a history that 510 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the Nazis. Also has coexisted 511 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: the fact that there is a very complex modern history 512 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: of the Nazis in India and their relation to particular 513 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 1: like Hindu nationalists political parties. Because the Nazis fought against 514 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: the British Empire, a good number of Hindu nationalists were 515 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. This 516 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: is compounded with the fact that popular Nazis spiritual philosopher 517 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: Saviitri Devi lived in India much of her life organized 518 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: with a lot of people who will be the political 519 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: precursors to the party that is the party of the 520 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: Prime Minister of India in Gramodi, who is very far 521 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: right and kind of even beyond this, the Nazis send 522 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: researchers to parts of the subcontinent with a group called 523 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: the Onanairb which is like a it is the group 524 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: doing a lot of like this occult research and stuff 525 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: and sort of the pre war Nazi era to kind 526 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: of investigate the origin point of the Aryans in India. Right, 527 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of reasons why there's this kind 528 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: of like complex history of the Nazis within India. 529 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 3: Well, and Hiller really admired India. Yeah, you're like EuroAsia 530 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 3: sort of. 531 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: You know, there's a makes sense, a complex history there, 532 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: and it's it's problematic at times. And part of what 533 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: makes it problematic is like, because of distance, there's not 534 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: really this sense of the immediacy of Hitler's crimes for 535 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: a lot of folks in that part of the world, 536 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: and this will cause some complicated problems. In the late 537 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, contemporaneous to an American Nazi George Lincoln Rockwell, 538 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: an Indian Nazi party formed in New Delhi using the 539 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: German Hagenkroi as It's simple. It promised that if elected 540 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: to power, India would be the strongest power on the planet. 541 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: They failed to get any real support. The Indian Nazi 542 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: Party does not take off, but actual Nazi imagery retains 543 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: a sort of low key popularity in the subcontinent, alongside 544 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: the more traditional religious uses of the swastika, and some 545 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: of this contributed to the rise of a culture of 546 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: admiration for Hitler as a business guru within India. Hitler 547 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: is one of the best known sort of business influencers. 548 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: You might say Wow, this is a more complicated topic 549 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: than we're going to talk about today. But it's because 550 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: of this history, because you can find like management books 551 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: that are like management lessons from Hitler and stuff. If 552 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 1: you google around as a result of all this, if 553 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: you google around, you'll run into variations of the same story, 554 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: which is that some Indian business own owner who's kind 555 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: of mainly aware of like Hitler and the Nazis, as 556 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: a result of this weird kind of business influencer thing, 557 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: will open a store or a restaurant with very weird 558 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: and specific Nazi branding. It will get covered in a 559 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: news article, a lot of people will get angry, and 560 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: there will nearly always be a follow up interviewing the 561 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: owner of the store, who kind of seems befuddled that 562 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: anyone's pissed about this. Here's one example from a two 563 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: thousand and six New York Times article. Boonite Sablock, twenty 564 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: three years old, in a Novas restaurant tour, says he 565 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: wanted a catchy cafe name to sell his three to 566 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: four dollars plates of Christina Tono pear and ricotta salad 567 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: in panacotta, so he went with Hitler's cross. He put 568 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: a swastika in the logo. He named his restaurant Hitler, 569 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: saying Hitler is a catchy name. Everyone knows Hitler. Man. 570 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 3: It's again. It's good marketing. I guess it draws eyes. 571 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 4: I guess I know that it makes money, but it 572 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 4: does draw eyes. Yeah, I probably don't need to explain 573 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 4: that the local Jewish community was not thrilled with this. 574 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 4: Later in the article, Sablock is quoted as saying, I 575 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 4: never wanted to promote Hitler. I just wanted to promote 576 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 4: my restaurant. 577 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: Well, you know what that reminds me of is not 578 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 3: that far from where I live. There is a restaurant 579 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: called the Soup Nazi Kitchen, and you know that's honestly 580 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 3: a reference to Seinfeld. But it's like, bro, yeah, I 581 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: don't know, maybe it says Nazi in your name. It's 582 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 3: so weird. 583 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: Part of why these stories tend to blow up is 584 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: that India has a very large expat population of Israelis 585 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: a lot of young Israeli kids also travel there. In fact, 586 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: when I was living in Delhi, one of my friends 587 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 1: was this dude who had fled to India so he 588 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't get drafted by the IDF. That same year, there 589 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: was a big blow up because a guy in Mumbai 590 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: opened a clothing boutique that was just named Hitler. The 591 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: pictures are pretty wild. It's like a high end mall 592 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: fashion store with a big glowing Hitler logo and there's 593 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: even a swastika and the dot on the eye. And 594 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: the owner of the shop, Rajah Shah, expressed shot that 595 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: people were angry. Telling the AFP, I didn't know how 596 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: much the name would disturb people. It was only when 597 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: the store opened I learned Hitler had killed six million people. 598 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 3: What I lovedumb huh. 599 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a real that's a real problem for you. 600 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 3: Huh wow, it is. 601 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 1: You know, very similarly, when I wanted to start this podcast, 602 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: the first name that I wanted to launch it, launch 603 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: it under was just Jeffrey Dahmer. Sophie had to inform 604 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: me that there was actually a problematic context with that name. 605 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 3: And what could that be. 606 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: You know, Sophie actually appreciate is there somebody with that 607 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: name or something? 608 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: Orbert Roberts trying to do a bit here. But he's 609 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: this is literally a factual story. I believe it. 610 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: The Jeffrey Dahmer cast draw some eyes. 611 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: You know, and and and our sales team was like, oh, 612 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, we do a lot of meal kit services. 613 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 2: I don't know if well that'll go. 614 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 3: An American horst. I mean, then we just get Dahmer 615 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: the TV show with. 616 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: I don't support his murders, but I am a big 617 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: fan of the way in which he used different spices. 618 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: You know. Look, you can divorce the man from from 619 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: the art. It should be the end of the bit. 620 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: So let's go. 621 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: This is all very dumb. No one should use Hitler 622 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: as a brand ambassador or try to divorce his management 623 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: secrets from his crimes more than he was a bad manager. 624 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: I was going to say, when for a good reason. 625 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 3: It's not the boss, bitch. You think it's. 626 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: Not the boss, bitch. You think this is not a 627 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: thing a person should have to say, right. But it's 628 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: when we get back to the US, which has both 629 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: a large Jewish population and a lot of folks who 630 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: are descended from you know, who are who are Indian? Right? 631 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: Who are who are des he? You know, are Hindu 632 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: or a Buddhist. It's when we get here that things 633 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: get very messy because in India again very normal to 634 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: c swastikas. It is not a problem. You know, if 635 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: you've got that as a religious symbol, you know in 636 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: your house, you know, in your clothing and a decoration. 637 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: And obviously I don't think no reasonable person would ask 638 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: that a whole culture stop using a religious symbol because 639 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: of some assholes used a similar one. But it's a 640 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: little more complicated in the US, where you've got lots 641 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: of Holocaust survivors and their descendants who are going to 642 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: have a powerful gut reaction to skiing something like that. 643 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: My gut wants to say, Look, the Hindu swastika is 644 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: not the hogen KROI. It shouldn't be. We should be 645 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: able to like talk about this. But like it's also 646 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: not that simple, right, and this is not hope. I 647 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,959 Speaker 1: don't want to come across let's lead into here. Neither 648 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: side's wrong here. I'm not going to come down like 649 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: condemning either group. This is like a really messy problem, 650 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: but it isn't It is interesting to me, and I 651 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: don't think enough people know that this is a a 652 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: thing that is an issue. So there have always been 653 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: a significant chunk of Indian people, of Hindu people, I 654 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: should say, because a lot of Indians are Muslim who 655 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: took umbrage at the thought that most of the world 656 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: had kind of tossed the swastika aside because of the Nazis. 657 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy nine, a Sanskrit scholar P. R. Sarkar 658 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: claimed that it was the symbol of permanent victory and 659 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: that like any symbol, it had positive and negative meanings. 660 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: His argument was that the right hand swastika was the 661 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: symbol of Vishnu, while the left hand, which is kind 662 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: of the one that the Nazis used, was the symbol 663 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: of Kali. Starting in the early nineteen nineties, with the 664 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: fall of the Soviet Union, Russian far right organizations and 665 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: other fascist political groups in the former Warsaw Pact nations 666 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: started to revive the swastika for different reasons. Obviously, for whatever. 667 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: For all of it's, you know, the different things that 668 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: were culturally problematic in the Soviet Union. One thing they're 669 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: good about is you're not allowed to display swastikas in 670 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. Right shouldn't have to explain why. But 671 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: once the Soviet Union falls, it because it had been 672 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: banned for so long, and because the right had been, 673 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, in their eyes, suppressed for so long it 674 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 1: gets taken up as this symbol for all of these 675 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: different right wing national movements are trying to revive it. 676 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: And Stephen Heller writes here quote the Soviet Union and 677 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: Czarist Russia before it was riddled with anti Semitism. Similarly, 678 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen nineties, there emerged a virulent strain 679 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: among ultra right wing groups calling for old fashioned pagrams 680 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: and new styled ethnic cleansing. While nestled on the fringe, 681 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: this decidedly organized milane of monarchist, neo fascist and pamat 682 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: are memory organizations openly hawked their ideologies on the street 683 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: until Boris Yeltsen's October nineteen ninety three emergency decrees banned 684 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: opposition media. Polemical newspapers with the titles Russia Arise the 685 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: Russian New Order in People's Business, featuring realistic drawings of 686 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 1: heroic looking black shirted Russian stormtroopers, scaprists, anti Semitic caricatures 687 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: and portraits of Adolf Hitler himself were unashamedly displayed at 688 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: sidewalk tables throughout Moscow and Saint Petersburg. Various iterations of 689 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 1: the swastika, sometimes combined with historic Russian folk iconography, were 690 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: also in full view. A visitor to Moscow reported that 691 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: it was impossible to walk a block without running into 692 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 1: at least one of these displays. And this will feed 693 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: into a lot of the issues that we have in 694 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine and in Russia right now with different Nazi organizations. 695 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: Right this is where a lot of that has its 696 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: kind of origin point. And while it is coming back 697 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: into use in Eastern Europe, it is also starting to 698 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: get revived in the eighties and nineties in the United 699 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: States as a symbol for the right now. The swastika 700 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: has this really awkward position in US counterculture since the 701 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: end of the Second World War. The first place, obviously, 702 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: George Lincoln Rockwell attempts to bring it back with his 703 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: American Nazi Party, but that's always decidedly fringed. The first 704 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of place where you see it commonly is biker gangs, 705 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: and specifically Hunter Thompson is actually the journalist who did 706 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: some of the first good reporting on this in his 707 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: book Hells Angels. But biker gangs in the post World 708 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: War two era form primarily out of like vets guys 709 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: who had never been able to integrate into post war society, 710 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: and a lot of them had fought Nazis, and they 711 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: had medals and helmets and other booty taken from the Germans, 712 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: some of which had swastikas which they would wear on 713 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: their like motorcycle gear, both to shock and to signal like, yeah, 714 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: I'm an outsider, I'm on the fringe, but I did 715 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,760 Speaker 1: my time for my country too, So it's. 716 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 3: Kind of a symbol of valor. At the same time, 717 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 3: it's a comp let's say, it's a complicated but that 718 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 3: was part of the intention at least was like not 719 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 3: like I am a Nazi, but I fought Nazis. 720 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, part of the intentions some of them are Nazis. 721 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: And then we're getting to that, so that, yeah, this 722 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: means that a number of the first proto punk types, 723 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: because a lot of punk culture in the United States 724 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: says come out of these biker yeah war swastikas and 725 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: stall helms because they had fought Nazis. But also a 726 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: lot of these guys are violently anti communists, and so 727 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,280 Speaker 1: it becomes complicated. Another group that wears the swastika commonly 728 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties are surf bums, right, Like surf 729 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,440 Speaker 1: bums have a lot of different swastik could get a 730 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: lot of early surfing equipment shops have swastikas or variations 731 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: of Nazi iconography in their logos. It is not uncommon 732 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: in the sixties, and a lot of this kind of 733 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: translates to some of the first punks in the nineteen seventies, 734 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: some of whom are Nazis and some of whom are 735 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: just trying to like trigger people. 736 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 3: Like transgressive behavior. 737 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. 738 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 739 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 1: In the book Subculture the Meaning of Style, author Dick 740 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: Hebridge relates that one female punk explained to him, punk's 741 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: just like to be hated for sure. 742 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 3: Sure, it's the quickest way to get hated. 743 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's all these weird like 744 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: surf brands and early skating brands that will use pieces 745 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: of Nazi iconography and will claim they don't have far 746 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: right sympathies. Some of them do and like become part 747 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: of you know, kind and some of them don't and 748 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 1: are just kind of being edge lords. You know, we 749 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,359 Speaker 1: didn't have that term at the time. But all of 750 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 1: this is mixed, and the people who are just kind 751 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,240 Speaker 1: of being edge lords, do it's fair to criticize provide 752 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: cover to the actual straight up Nazis, you know, they 753 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: provide sort of space for this to get accepted among 754 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: people that allows some recruitment. This is all happening alongside 755 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: a surge in the late eighties early nineties and actual 756 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: Nazi organizing and the establishment of groups like White Aryan 757 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: Resistance who ape aspects of a punk aesthetic, you might 758 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: say pseudo ironic use of the swastika gives cover two 759 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: real Nazis. Now, all of this makes the issue of 760 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: Hindu people, of Buddhists, of Native Americans in the United 761 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: States and elsewhere in the West trying to reclaim the 762 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: swastika very complicated, right because you do you get people 763 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: who are you know, Hindu or Buddhists being like, I 764 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: should be able to utilize this symbol that is a 765 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: religious symbol for me, that's a cultural symbol that I saw, 766 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: you know, as a kid, and you have you do 767 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: have you know, members of different indigenous tribes who'd use 768 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: the swastika, some whom are saying like, well, maybe we 769 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: should be able to go back to it. Now. It 770 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 1: has been like nearly andred years like, we feel like 771 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: we did our bit here and this is complex. I'm 772 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: going to quote from a twenty twenty two ap News 773 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: article here. It sort of sets up the stakes, she telled. 774 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: Dio was shocked when she got a letter from her 775 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: Queen's apartment building's co op board calling her Dwali decoration 776 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,879 Speaker 1: offensive and demanding she take it down. My decoration said 777 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: happy d Wali and had a swastika on it, said Dio, 778 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: a physician who was celebrating the Hindu Festival of Lights. 779 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: Doo believes she and people of other faiths should not 780 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: have to sacrifice or apologize for a sacred symbol simply 781 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: because it has often conflated with its tainted version. To me, 782 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: that's intolerable, he said. And like, yeah, that's a fair point. 783 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Well, now they're fighting against nineties edge lords 784 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,439 Speaker 3: who are like spray painting it at the skate park 785 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 3: to be like, oh, look at this, like you know. 786 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: This is complex, yeah, very And Among the people who 787 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: had issue with Dio's display for Duali decoration was Shelley Wernick, 788 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: who was the managing director of the Jewish Federation's Holocaust 789 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: Survivor Carowing and she points out that seeing a swastika 790 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: at home or out and about can be re traumatizing 791 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 1: for elderly survivors, which is also a fair point. 792 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,320 Speaker 3: But yeah, of course seeing that in any. 793 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: Context really mess you up. You know, I nobody's I don't. 794 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,719 Speaker 1: I'm not. There's not like any no one's in the 795 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: wrong here, right, I'm not like to take out This 796 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: is complicated. You know what else is complicated? Chelsey? 797 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 3: What is that? 798 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:34,439 Speaker 1: The moral dimensions of advertising products and services in order 799 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: to support a podcast? 800 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,359 Speaker 3: You're telling me, huh huh. 801 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: And that's why we're just gonna ignore it. Here's some ads. Ah, 802 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: we're back and uh, feeling good, feeling good. So one 803 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,919 Speaker 1: of the people quoted, and that really quite fatating AP 804 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: News article is a New York based Buddhist priest who 805 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,200 Speaker 1: was disturbed when he heard somebody at an inner faith 806 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: conference called the swastika the universal symbol of evil. And 807 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: whatever your stance on the matter is, that simply can't 808 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: be correct, right like this is still there's like a 809 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 1: billion or more people for whom this is still a 810 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,400 Speaker 1: religious symbol. Hitler doesn't have the power to make that 811 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: a universal symbol of evil, right Like that is I 812 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,160 Speaker 1: think a bad way to phrase it. Widely recognized as 813 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: a symbol of evil is true because a lot of 814 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: people do recognize it this way. You know that anyway 815 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: complicated this Buddhist the Reverend T. K. Nakagaki wrote a 816 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: book in twenty eighteen called the Buddhist Swastika in Hitler's Cross, 817 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 1: Rescuing a symbol of peace from the forces of hate. 818 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: And one thing that he points out, because he's a 819 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: big advocate of we should call the symbol that is 820 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: sacred to all these different peoples the swastika or you know, 821 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: presumably when you talking about like the Navajo, you would 822 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: use the term the whirling log. But when we refer 823 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: to the Nazi of the symbol, we should call it 824 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: the hagen Kroi. Right. And one thing he points out 825 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:07,760 Speaker 1: that I was unaware of is that in newspapers across 826 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: the United States the Nazi cross was referred to as 827 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: the hagen Kroi until the early nineteen thirties when they 828 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: use the term swastika. Now I get his point here. 829 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that that's like necessarily wrong, but it 830 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: is worth noting that the Nazis call it out a 831 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: swastika a lot of the time too, like it is 832 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: being used by them at that point in time. And 833 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,720 Speaker 1: I to be quite frank, at this point, I don't 834 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: know how you get people to stop in the West 835 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: to associate hagen Kroi with the Nazis, but not swastika, 836 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: like you have an easier time with like whirling LG. 837 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, for sure. 838 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 1: Now there are legitimate harms that all of this causes 839 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,080 Speaker 1: for members of faiths who have done nothing wrong. In California, 840 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: public the display of the swastika has been criminalized. There 841 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: are exceptions for this, including the sacred swastika used by Hindus, 842 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: but it does not called the illegal swastika a Hagenkroi 843 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: and instead uses the term swastika, which could confuse law enforcement, 844 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: might conceivably lead to problems. Even the worry of this 845 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,720 Speaker 1: itself could cause a chilling effect on religious expression. Quote 846 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: Pushpita Prasad, a spokesperson for the Hindu group, called it 847 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,720 Speaker 1: a victory, but said the legislation unfortunately labels both Hitler's 848 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: symbol and the sacred one as swastika's. This is not 849 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: just an esoteric battle, Prissad said, but an issue with 850 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: real life consequences for immigrant communities whose members have resorted 851 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: to self censoring. Vickas Jane, a Cleveland physician, said that 852 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: he and his wife hid images containing the symbol when 853 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 1: their children's friends visited because they wouldn't know the difference. 854 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: Jane says he stands in solidarity with the Jewish community, 855 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,720 Speaker 1: but is sad that he cannot freely practice his Jane 856 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: faith because of this lack of understanding. He noted that 857 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: the global Jaane symbol has a swastika in it, but 858 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 1: in the United States, the Jain community has deliberately removed 859 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:58,279 Speaker 1: the swastika from its seal. Jane wishes that people would 860 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: differentiate between their symbol of thas piece and Hitler's swastika, 861 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 1: just as they do with the hateful burning cross symbol 862 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: in Christianity's sacred Crucifix, which I think is a really 863 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: good thing. 864 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 3: That is a really good point. 865 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,160 Speaker 1: Certain uses of the Christian cross are definitely offensive and frightening, 866 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,040 Speaker 1: but we don't say nobody should be wearing a crucifix, right, 867 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 1: you know. Now, there's also a growing movement in some 868 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: indigenous circles to end the year's long prohibition on their 869 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: use of the swastik or the worling log. The consternation 870 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: over this by some Jewish organizations is understandable, as is 871 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: the desire of people to return to their use of 872 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: the symbol. Again, no one's wrong here. You know, it's complicated, 873 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: And I'm going to continue with a quote from that 874 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,239 Speaker 1: AP article. For the Navajo people, the symbol shaped like 875 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 1: a swirl represents the universe in life, said Patricia Ann Davis, 876 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 1: an elder at the choctaw Ina Dina is the term 877 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,719 Speaker 1: for the Navajo people that is actually used by them 878 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: for themselves. It was a spiritual, esoteric symbol that was 879 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: woven into the Navajo rugs until Hitler took something good, 880 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 1: beautiful and made it twisted, she said. And I think 881 00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: again I want to say here, I'm not saying either 882 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 1: that like Jewish organizations have like a black and white 883 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 1: necessarily view about this. Again, there's a lot of appreciation 884 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,800 Speaker 1: on both sides about what a complex and thorny problem 885 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 1: this is. And I don't think anyone's really behaving unreasonably here. 886 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: Jeff Kellman, a New Hampshire Holocaust historian, often lectures to 887 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: Jewish community organizations about the fundamental differences between the swastika 888 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,280 Speaker 1: and the Hockencroix, and he told the AP he feels 889 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 1: like his message about the possibility of redeeming the symbol 890 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 1: has gained recent ground among many Jewish survivors and descendants 891 00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,239 Speaker 1: of survivors. Quote, when they learn an Indian girl could 892 00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: be named Swastika and she could be harassed in school, 893 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,040 Speaker 1: they understand how they should see these as two separate symbols. 894 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:47,439 Speaker 2: He said. 895 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,760 Speaker 1: No one in the Jewish community wants to see Hitler's 896 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,400 Speaker 1: legacy continue to harm people. One of the people quoted 897 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: in that article is gret At Elbagin. She's an eighty 898 00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: five year old Holocaust survivor whose grandmother and cousins died 899 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: at Auschway were murdered at Outwards, and she says she 900 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,440 Speaker 1: was surprised to learn about the symbols. Past Elbagin was 901 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: born in nineteen thirty eight, when the Nazis forcibly annexed 902 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 1: Austrian She went into hiding with relatives in Hungary and 903 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: immigrated to the US in nineteen fifty six and became 904 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,319 Speaker 1: a social worker. This new knowledge about the swastika, Elbergin said, 905 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,080 Speaker 1: feels liberating. She no longer fears a symbol that was 906 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,319 Speaker 1: used to terrorize. Hearing that the swastika is beautiful and 907 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: sacred to so many people is a blessing. She said. 908 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: It's time to let go of the past and look 909 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: into the future. And I'm not saying that that's the 910 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: only way to think about it either. If you're on 911 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,040 Speaker 1: the side of this is like a person who is 912 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,959 Speaker 1: a descendant of Holocaust survivors going like, I don't feel 913 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,200 Speaker 1: comfortable with this. That's perfectly reasonable too. This is like, again, 914 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,719 Speaker 1: is very complicated. 915 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 3: What all this speaks to is like the just the 916 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,799 Speaker 3: incredible power of symbols right to the human race. It's 917 00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 3: just so amazing that this same or like a riff 918 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 3: on a similar symbol can mean both good luck and 919 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,399 Speaker 3: this huge hero's journey and this powerful religious story. While 920 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 3: on the other hand, it's a symbol of actual mass 921 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,040 Speaker 3: murder and horror and death, but it's the same symbol. 922 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 3: It's just the power that we have as humans to 923 00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,399 Speaker 3: project onto that whatever we need to or want to 924 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 3: or believe and accept the symbols that are given to 925 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 3: us by people in power who have a you know, 926 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,960 Speaker 3: an idea about what the symbol can mean and what 927 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 3: it can do. It's wild. 928 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot covid on here. So I just 929 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: wanted people to be aware of that, not to take, 930 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, one side or the other or not that 931 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: the sides I presented are the only ways to feel 932 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: about this. This is a tremendously complicated thing to think about, 933 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,120 Speaker 1: but it is worth thinking about. This is something you 934 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:54,600 Speaker 1: should as just as a person, not even as just 935 00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: like somebody's who's Jane. There's somebody who's you know, Navajo, 936 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: somebody who's Jewish that you should be thinking about, but 937 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,439 Speaker 1: just as like a human being, because this is one 938 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:05,680 Speaker 1: way or the other, regardless of where you land, This 939 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: is everyone symbol. It is universal to the human race 940 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 1: more or less. 941 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 3: Right. 942 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,319 Speaker 1: It appears everywhere every place in the world, and it 943 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,919 Speaker 1: always has. 944 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 3: And it always has everywhere. That is so wild. It 945 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,120 Speaker 3: was in Ohio, it. 946 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,800 Speaker 1: Was Ohio, It's all over It's in China. God, it's everywhere. 947 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:28,280 Speaker 2: Swastika. 948 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 1: I'm not over that swastika Oregon. Yeah. 949 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,239 Speaker 3: It's so hard because you can't be in solidarity with 950 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 3: everyone in this situation. I mean, you can try to 951 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 3: be by just. 952 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: Si solidarity for like, wow, this is messy. 953 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'd say that's the best way to have 954 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 3: solidarity is just to say, like, I actually can't say 955 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:51,480 Speaker 3: the answer. I can't say that I can respect everyone 956 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,680 Speaker 3: in this situation. He's trying to like make a better 957 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:58,560 Speaker 3: world through either readopting a symbol or making it disappear. 958 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: It's like, I think it's probably the kind of thing 959 00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,239 Speaker 1: where the only real solutions are ad hoc. You know, 960 00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 1: if you've got a situation where members of you know, 961 00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: a local Jewish community and you know, sitting down with 962 00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,359 Speaker 1: members of like a Jane community or whatever, and they're 963 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: they're talking about how to allow, you know, how to 964 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 1: have the symbol expressed in its original religious meaning in 965 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,640 Speaker 1: a way that's not going to make people uncomfortable. That's 966 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 1: fine if you've got you know, somebody wants to display 967 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,440 Speaker 1: Dwally thing in their apartment building, and there's an elderly 968 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,320 Speaker 1: Holocaust survivor and they decide, well, I guess we won't 969 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,280 Speaker 1: put this outside because it might scare this this elderly person, 970 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,279 Speaker 1: and like we don't want to do that. I think 971 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 1: that's also reasonable. I think if another thing happened, there's 972 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,000 Speaker 1: not I don't have I don't have like a clear 973 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: there's the wrong or the right thing to do here. 974 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: This is just like one of the legacies of you know, 975 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 1: World War Two, but also just a thing that human 976 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 1: beings always have to deal with, is the Yeah, I 977 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: know it's complicated, very complicated. Should be aware that it's 978 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 1: a thing. Yeah. 979 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I am so happy that this was the topic 980 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 3: that I got because I just I can't believe I 981 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,680 Speaker 3: didn't know this. I'm absolutely just shocked and awed at 982 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 3: all of this. 983 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want a really good book on the subject, 984 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,440 Speaker 1: the swastika symbol Beyond Redemption question Mark by Stephen Heller, 985 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,000 Speaker 1: very readable. Whenever this comes up, whenever there's an issue 986 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: of like somebody displays the swastika for religious reason and 987 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: it causes like a conflict, Stephen usually gets interviewed by 988 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: like the journalists writing about it because he's just like 989 00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: the guy who writes about this very good book. I 990 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,840 Speaker 1: do recommend it if you're interested in more detail. 991 00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,120 Speaker 3: Anyway, Chelsea, get anything to plug, sure, I mean, I'm 992 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,040 Speaker 3: just you know what, I will specifically plug an episode 993 00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,840 Speaker 3: of my podcast American Hysteria called Astrology and the series 994 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,919 Speaker 3: we did because it deals with not only astrologers as 995 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,480 Speaker 3: they existed in the White House and advising for me, 996 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 3: which is a yes, yep, you know, you know, But 997 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:08,799 Speaker 3: it also goes into how the Nazis used astrologers as 998 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 3: like secret agents as well to sort of push propaganda, 999 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,479 Speaker 3: and that just seems like kind of in the same 1000 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,880 Speaker 3: vein of this this series here and yeah, American Asterria, 1001 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,680 Speaker 3: you can find it anywhere. We study moral panics, urban legends, 1002 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 3: conspiracy theories and how they've affected American history. 1003 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, well you can find me right here. 1004 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,320 Speaker 1: You can find my novel After the Revolution wherever books 1005 00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 1: are sold. Just type After the Revolution into any book thing, 1006 00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,720 Speaker 1: or again, screech it from the top of your lungs 1007 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,920 Speaker 1: while waving some sort of carved war club at the 1008 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,400 Speaker 1: guy who runs the Barnes and Noble, you know, or 1009 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,520 Speaker 1: Applebee's or sorry yeah, or Applebee's whatever. 1010 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 2: That's the episode Behind the Bastards is a production of 1011 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,799 Speaker 2: cool Zone Media. More from cool Zone Media, visit our 1012 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 2: website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 1013 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.