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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show of Reduction of shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. It is the

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Speaker 1: single biggest kept secret is a straight mails desire for

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Speaker 1: transpa And because this happenings in the dark allow the

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Speaker 1: general public to continue assuming that only gay men would

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Speaker 1: like a transpoman, that this giant misconception is just allowed

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Speaker 1: to continue to to fester and we all fall victim

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Speaker 1: too it. So what's it going to take to change that?

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Speaker 1: That's the question I always have. Hello everyone, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Laverne Cox Show. Now, I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: a series of conversations about dating and some of its

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Speaker 1: challenges for very personal reasons. Finding love has been really

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Speaker 1: challenging part of my life for my entire adult life.

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Speaker 1: Part of it is because I'm really picky and I

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Speaker 1: don't feel a genuine connection to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But dating is also challenging for many of us for

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Speaker 1: any number of reasons. But I'm keenly aware that the

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Speaker 1: challenges are different for black women, for women over forty,

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Speaker 1: and for trans women, all categories I currently inhabit. So

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Speaker 1: today I want to focus on the challenges of dating

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Speaker 1: as a trans woman. This is something I talked to

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Speaker 1: my trans girlfriends about all the time, but today I

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Speaker 1: wanted to chat with someone who I know will make

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Speaker 1: me think differently about this and hopefully will give you

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Speaker 1: a lot to think about as well. Her name is

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Speaker 1: Jin Richards. Jen as a trans woman, and she's so

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Speaker 1: smart and thoughtful and always makes me think about various

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Speaker 1: subjects in ways I hadn't before. Jin Richards is an actress, writer,

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Speaker 1: and producer. You might know her from her Emmy nominated

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Speaker 1: short series Her Story, which is absolutely brilliant. You must

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Speaker 1: watch it if you haven't. She has received critical acclaim

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Speaker 1: for acting work in the net Links revival of Tales

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Speaker 1: from the City. You can also see her in the

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Speaker 1: HBO series Mrs Fletcher and in the Netflix documentary Disclosure,

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Speaker 1: which I happen to have executive produced. She is currently

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Speaker 1: a regular on the thriller crime drama Clarisse on CBS.

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Speaker 1: Please enjoy my conversation with Gin Richards. Hello Jin Richards,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? Girl?

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Speaker 1: Things have been good and they're only getting better, which

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Speaker 1: is a nice feeling. So exciting. That is so exciting.

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Speaker 1: So I am doing a series where I look at dating,

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Speaker 1: love and relationships from different lenses, and when I thought

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Speaker 1: about having a conversation about dating as a trans woman,

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Speaker 1: and I knew I wanted to talk to you for

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Speaker 1: a lot of different reasons. But I want to start

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Speaker 1: with a moment from Disclosure for those listeners who don't know.

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Speaker 1: Disclosure is a documentary executive produced that is available on

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Speaker 1: Netflix that looks at the history of trans representation on screen.

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Speaker 1: And Jin is interviewed in that documentary, and there's a

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Speaker 1: moment in Disclosure when Jin is reacting to a scene

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Speaker 1: from the E reality series I Am Kate and Dad

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Speaker 1: is in a support group for parents of trans kids.

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Speaker 1: The dad says in the group, if you have a

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Speaker 1: transgender kid, you are living with a unicorn, an amazing

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Speaker 1: human being. To be next to someone so brave, so cool,

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Speaker 1: so close to themselves. Avery was on point from h

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Speaker 1: to the father says, and Avery is their trans kid.

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Speaker 1: And then Jin says in reaction to that, I've never

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Speaker 1: seen myself the way that father saw his own child.

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Speaker 1: I've never looked at myself with a kind of love, respect,

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Speaker 1: and awe that father had for his own child. No

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Speaker 1: one looked at me that way. How could I look

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Speaker 1: at me that way? I had to see it, and

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Speaker 1: now that I have, I want that. The vulnerability of

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Speaker 1: that moment is so beautiful and makes me cry every

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Speaker 1: time because for me, that's just like what everybody wants,

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Speaker 1: That's what every human being wants. That's like the human experience.

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Speaker 1: And I was prepping for this and I saw on

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Speaker 1: Instagram that you're now engaged. I am so can I

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Speaker 1: glean now that you have had that or you're experiencing

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Speaker 1: like being looked at and seeing that way? Is that

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Speaker 1: talk to me? Jane Richard's profoundly so profoundly so. And

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Speaker 1: it is more wonderful and deeply transformative than I could

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Speaker 1: have possibly anticipated. And there's an interesting on coincidence in

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Speaker 1: that the day that my now fiance first told me

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Speaker 1: that she loved me was a couple of hours after

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Speaker 1: we saw the very first screening of Disclosure. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that is really for me, the cruxt of it. I

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Speaker 1: think that sense of being deeply seen and known and

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Speaker 1: loved as our authentic self is what we all want.

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Speaker 1: And I think that is why I wanted to have

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Speaker 1: this series about love, and one of the reasons I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you specifically, not just because you're brilliant,

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Speaker 1: but because you've dated men and you've dated women in

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Speaker 1: the past. I used to joke that because I was

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Speaker 1: bisexual as a boy and dated gay men and straight women,

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Speaker 1: and have stayed bisexual as a trans woman and have

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Speaker 1: dated lesbians and straight men and have also dated on

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Speaker 1: binary and trans people along the way, that I've hit

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Speaker 1: the lgbt Q bingo card. I've been every letter, and

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Speaker 1: I've had every possible combination of relationship. I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the differences for you and your own experiences

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Speaker 1: dating men, dating women, dating other trans folks, But I

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Speaker 1: just want to get into how did you meet your fiance?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to share it with this a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Because I think we all want to know how this

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Speaker 1: happens and we want to celebrate this love with you.

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Speaker 1: And I'm always excited to share our story and I'm

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Speaker 1: still very much in the throes of it. We met

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Speaker 1: through a dating nap. It's a slightly unusual one called

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Speaker 1: lex which came out. It was originally an Instagram account,

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Speaker 1: and what it was is that people posted old school personals,

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Speaker 1: so just like in the newspapers, you'd have a little

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Speaker 1: headline and maybe ten sentences of texts like who you

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Speaker 1: are and what you're in search of. There was no pictures,

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Speaker 1: There was no links to social media or anything. It

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Speaker 1: was just very, very simple. And I had tried all

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Speaker 1: the other dating napps before with with you know a

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Speaker 1: little to no success as an understatement, and I like

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Speaker 1: the simplicity of this ad. So there's no photos on it.

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Speaker 1: It's an old school yep, just a personal wow. There

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Speaker 1: is an option in a post where you can link

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Speaker 1: to your Instagram if you want to. I did not

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Speaker 1: do that. Uh. And the larger context of this is

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Speaker 1: that I had stopped dating for a little over three

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Speaker 1: years and hadn't been in a serious relationship for almost

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Speaker 1: eight Why did you stop dating? It was a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons. I without revealing too much, I'll say that

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Speaker 1: I had gotten into some self destructive habits and then

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Speaker 1: it finally confronted those and gone through a healing process,

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Speaker 1: and in that space felt like I had to focus

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Speaker 1: on that kind of internal work. Then after a while,

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Speaker 1: just the fear set in and I didn't know how

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Speaker 1: to date or have sex without the crutches that I

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Speaker 1: was accustomed to, and so it took a while, but

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Speaker 1: there was also this additional justification that I didn't really

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Speaker 1: have steady income. I was living in people's guest rooms

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Speaker 1: and couches in l A for three years. All my

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Speaker 1: stuff was in storage. It's not a great condition under

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Speaker 1: which to date. And then when I finally found some

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Speaker 1: success and got my own place and got out of debt,

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Speaker 1: it was like, okay, this is You've got no excuses,

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Speaker 1: so now it's time to start dating. So I posted

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Speaker 1: this ad just as let's see what happens and and

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Speaker 1: got some nice responses, including one from this woman who

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Speaker 1: lived in Phoenix, which I ignored because one of the

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Speaker 1: rules for myself as I'm not dating people that live

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Speaker 1: at his state, So I ignored her message, but she

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Speaker 1: kept on in a gentle way. Following up and around

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Speaker 1: the same time, I was back in therapy, specifically with

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Speaker 1: the goal of wanting to become okay with dating again,

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Speaker 1: And on Friday morning, my therapist said, do you even

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Speaker 1: want Do you want to be partner? Do you want

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Speaker 1: to be married? Do you want to have a long

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Speaker 1: term relationship? And I answered, quite honestly that I don't

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Speaker 1: know because I can't visualize that person. To then make

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Speaker 1: the judgment. I can't imagine a person who would want

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Speaker 1: to spend the rest of their life with me, like

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Speaker 1: holy and completely, like it's beyond my imaginative capacity, So

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Speaker 1: I can't even picture it to then say do I

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Speaker 1: want this picture or not? Can I apology there? Just

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Speaker 1: you can't imagine a person wanting to spend the rest

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Speaker 1: of their life with you? Can you what's going on there?

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Speaker 1: That's howthot we could escape by that law because I

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Speaker 1: feel like that's related to what you said in the

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Speaker 1: disclosure documentary that you hadn't seen, Like RuPaul says how

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Speaker 1: you're gonna love somebody else if you don't love yourself

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Speaker 1: that whole piece and Berne Brown's definition of love is

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Speaker 1: the same, and we can only love others as much

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Speaker 1: we love ourself. Do you think that's what that was about?

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Speaker 1: Or it's certainly wrapped up in that. And I think

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Speaker 1: transnance is a big part of it as well. It's

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Speaker 1: very hard to date as a trans woman, and there

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Speaker 1: are very few models for what a healthy relationship looks

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Speaker 1: like with the trans person involved. I hadn't seen it,

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Speaker 1: and I can think of one friend who has been

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Speaker 1: in a steady relationship the whole time that I've known

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Speaker 1: or one trans woman. That's a lot of transmitt but

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Speaker 1: but not trans women. So I just didn't see how

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Speaker 1: it could work. And that's built on top of a

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Speaker 1: kind of bedrock of of shame and self hatred that

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Speaker 1: I think comes with being transfer all the ways that

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Speaker 1: we're reflected back as monstrous and abject. You combine that

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Speaker 1: image with with the lack of positive role models, and

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Speaker 1: then built on the kinds of of shame and self

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Speaker 1: consciousness that comes I think with just being a human

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Speaker 1: and like even pre transitioned as a young so news

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Speaker 1: still figure themselves out and was closeted trends and all

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Speaker 1: those edifices that we've built up in our mind to

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Speaker 1: to prove to ourselves were unworthy are hard to break

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Speaker 1: down and it takes a lot of effort. So I

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Speaker 1: felt unlovable. Was it was the bottom line of that,

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Speaker 1: And so I told my therapist this and just okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna let's work on that. Every single morning. First thing,

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Speaker 1: I sit down with my tea and write out three

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Speaker 1: pages Longhand, which comes out of Julia Cameron's The Artist Way,

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Speaker 1: and I work out a lot of my ideas and

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Speaker 1: issues on the page. And so the next morning, and

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Speaker 1: oddly enough, this was the first time I had ever

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Speaker 1: done this. I said, if there were a person out there,

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Speaker 1: like I'm going to brag it off the assumption that

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Speaker 1: I've carried so far that there is no such person.

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Speaker 1: But if there were, if there were a person who

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Speaker 1: could love me, what kinds of qualities would I want

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Speaker 1: a partner? And I wrote them out, was very specific,

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Speaker 1: and then I think it was about five hours later

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Speaker 1: Becca and I started messaging back and forth on the app,

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Speaker 1: and she turned out to be literally every single thing

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Speaker 1: I said I wanted on that journal page. It's almost

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Speaker 1: as if, like I just the universe are just waiting

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Speaker 1: for me to show up to say, yeah, okay, I'm ready,

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Speaker 1: I'm worthy, Like, okay, good, We've got somebody for you.

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Speaker 1: We're just waiting for you. I think I was thinking too,

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Speaker 1: that when you declared that you wanted to it felt

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Speaker 1: like this statement of intention that very much went out

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Speaker 1: into the universe right in a really beautiful, specific way.

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Speaker 1: I think there's this the piece of like personal responsibility,

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Speaker 1: what's my part in it? What can I control right

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Speaker 1: my perception in my behavior? And then there's systemic things,

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Speaker 1: and so I love that there's the space of manifesting.

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Speaker 1: Before I met my most recent X, I made a

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Speaker 1: list of all the qualities I wanted a man, and

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Speaker 1: when I met my last boyfriend, he had all those

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Speaker 1: qualities as well. We're no longer together, so still he

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Speaker 1: was the right person at the right time, and he

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Speaker 1: had what you needed in that moment, absolutely, and I

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Speaker 1: think there was the piece of being ready. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that because I think for trans folks, of

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Speaker 1: all transman, trans women, non binary people, and probably anyone

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Speaker 1: who's marginalized, believing that you're worthy of the love. Because

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Speaker 1: for me, in my last relationship, at the beginning of it,

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Speaker 1: when we were getting serious and he was just there

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Speaker 1: and present and amazing, I just couldn't believe that it

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Speaker 1: was real because I had never experienced it before. I

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Speaker 1: had a lot of attachment issues. I was just like

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Speaker 1: I was waiting for the other shooter drop and he

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Speaker 1: kept through his actions assuring me that he wasn't going anywhere,

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Speaker 1: that he was indeed all in. And I had done

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Speaker 1: enough work on myself in therapy and other practices to

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Speaker 1: be able to sit with the discomfort of like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, this is real, because it was the kind

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Speaker 1: of there was something cruciating about it. Is if love

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Speaker 1: is wonderful. But in the beginning, I was just like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, this feels it felt awful because I

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Speaker 1: think because of the trauma, because of the shame, because

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Speaker 1: there's a part of me that still felt like I

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Speaker 1: wasn't worthy, But enough of me felt like I was

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Speaker 1: worthy of it and deserved to receive the love. I

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Speaker 1: was able to be present forward and to receive it.

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Speaker 1: Have you felt throughout your process with your fiancee that

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Speaker 1: you had done enough work? Or is are you in

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Speaker 1: process with being able to fully receive the love? Because

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Speaker 1: the gift, but if we don't feel worthy of it,

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Speaker 1: we can't receive it. Where are you with all that?

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Speaker 1: I don't know how much of it is the work

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Speaker 1: that I had put in up until that point, and

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Speaker 1: how much is what's unique about my dynamic Rebecca and

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Speaker 1: what's unique about her as a partner. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: quickly wasn't an issue. I think once you know, within

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Speaker 1: the first month, once we got over the whole. Do

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Speaker 1: you like me as much as I like you? Is

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Speaker 1: this moving forward? Is this what we both want? We

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Speaker 1: were both just all in. It was the end of

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Speaker 1: our second date. I wrote my journal that morning. As

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Speaker 1: she left, she was going back to Arizona, like, this

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Speaker 1: is it. I'm done, this is my person, and I'm

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Speaker 1: all in. And I haven't had a single wavering doubt

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Speaker 1: since then. And we've been together, hold up in a

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Speaker 1: house together during the lockdown, and I still love her

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Speaker 1: more every day and I don't think that's ever going

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Speaker 1: to change. Maybe, particularly as a writer, I have a

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Speaker 1: kind of acute sense for in an aversion to any

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Speaker 1: kind of like cliches and tropes, and certainly you know

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Speaker 1: that the kind of great love story that when you

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Speaker 1: meet someone you know when it's the right person, it's

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Speaker 1: all easy and it works out like all these tropes

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Speaker 1: I had heard. I had a like a willing suspension

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Speaker 1: of disbelief. Okay, I've seen it out in the world

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Speaker 1: enough in real life and storytelling that I believe that's

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Speaker 1: a possibility, but I don't think that's in the cards

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Speaker 1: for me. And that feeling came first, and then there

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Speaker 1: was an intellectual justification of it, you know, like I'm

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Speaker 1: a very I'm a difficult person, I'm perversely independent, I'm

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Speaker 1: very very much in my head I'm extremely busy, I'm

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Speaker 1: trans I have some other stuff about my my past

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Speaker 1: that can be difficult for a partner to deal with.

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Speaker 1: I can intellectually justify it all these ways, but ultimately

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Speaker 1: it was really just that feeling of feeling unloved was

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Speaker 1: at the base of it. And so as much as

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Speaker 1: I agree with this whole notion that you do have

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Speaker 1: to love yourself before you can be loved, at the

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Speaker 1: same time, having someone see you truly and love you

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Speaker 1: makes it much easier for you to love yourself. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's like an either or. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a kind of spiral of the two working together. Because

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Speaker 1: once I met Becca and I started to become loved,

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Speaker 1: and she's a very powerful partner, like that's for her,

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Speaker 1: it's very much what defines her identity. She likes being

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Speaker 1: a partner. She's always wanted to be a wife. She

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Speaker 1: wants to love someone and support them completely, and to

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Speaker 1: be loved in that way really broke down all my

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Speaker 1: very high walls. And then all of a sudden those

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Speaker 1: cliches became just very true and very obvious in a

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Speaker 1: way that's I sometimes feel staggeringly basic. And then in

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Speaker 1: one sense, it goes true love. Uh and in the

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Speaker 1: sense it really there's a reason. It is one of

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Speaker 1: the most profound aspects of life and the subject and

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Speaker 1: object of most of our fairy tales and most profound longings.

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Speaker 1: It's a powerful thing to be loved, absolutely, and I

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Speaker 1: think it heals. I think love is everything. What someone

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Speaker 1: said to me years ago when I started a specific

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Speaker 1: process of my own healing, They said to me, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to love you till you learn to love yourself.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't a romantic love. It was a love

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Speaker 1: of healing, and that was part of my process and

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Speaker 1: support groups and with people where I learned that I

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Speaker 1: was lovable and I learned how to really be intimate

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Speaker 1: with someone. And I think that work we have to do.

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Speaker 1: I think everyone has to do it, but I think

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Speaker 1: for trans people, because we live in a world that

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Speaker 1: is really really cruel to us and just constantly has

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Speaker 1: to invalidate us in our feelings and who we are,

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot of us have a lot of

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Speaker 1: trauma that we have to do really specific work so

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Speaker 1: that we can get to the space of worthiness. A

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Speaker 1: specific example from the first night we spent together, and

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Speaker 1: I have to do all of my normal nighttime routine

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Speaker 1: stuff that I'm I would typically be afraid for anyone

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Speaker 1: else to see. And I had learned this kind of

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Speaker 1: like shame over the work of maintaining femininity. So you

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Speaker 1: know that at night, having to pull my hair back,

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Speaker 1: take off all my makeup, on my moisturizer, I wear

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Speaker 1: a nasal strip, debris that night, and all all these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things that I need in order to be

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Speaker 1: at my best. I was also embarrassed by and I

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Speaker 1: never wanted a partner to see that. And the most

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Speaker 1: I hoped for is maybe I'll meet someone who it

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Speaker 1: doesn't bother them too much. So the very first night

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Speaker 1: with with Becca, I had to start doing this stuff

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Speaker 1: and it was out of the SETSI is because I

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Speaker 1: had to shoot the next morning, so I couldn't skip

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Speaker 1: that step. And I was kind of sheepish, and I

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Speaker 1: began my process and then she sat there and stared

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Speaker 1: at me, and then she confessed. Because she's very she's

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Speaker 1: a masculine gold star lesbian like has just always loved

336
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Speaker 1: feminine women since she was a child. She like one

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Speaker 1: of her great joys in life is to watch a

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Speaker 1: woman do that process, to put on her makeup and

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00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 1: take off her makeup and do her skin. And she

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00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 1: was turned on. She was enraptured and enriched by watching

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Speaker 1: me do that process. So at best I had hoped

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Speaker 1: for maybe someone could tolerate this aspect of my life,

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Speaker 1: and instead I found someone who loves it and who

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Speaker 1: wants that. And that's the kind of possibilities, Like, Wow,

345
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 1: there's so much more. We can go, so much beyond

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00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: acceptance and as someone who sees you specifically and loves

347
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: that about you, And and then that dynamic just kept

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Speaker 1: repeating on different scales for the first few months of

349
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Speaker 1: our dating. That's absolutely incredible. So you've also dated men,

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Speaker 1: and I really wanted to, and I've only dated men

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Speaker 1: this gender men, I have no I'm not any kind

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Speaker 1: of effectually fluid, just strictly, I have to Laverna. I'm

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Speaker 1: start didn't but I have to leave. That could made

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Speaker 1: me promise that I would again ask you to please

355
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Speaker 1: consider becoming a lesbian. Leslians really want you to be lesbian.

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Speaker 1: You have a lot of lesbian fans, a lot of

357
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Speaker 1: like kind of masculine leaning lesbians who love your femininity

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Speaker 1: and glamour, and they just really want and they would

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00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 1: tell you that a good lesbian can do everything a

360
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,760
Speaker 1: man can do and more. That's incredible. I even with

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Speaker 1: this man, I'm super picky. That's like, that mean I

362
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,679
Speaker 1: need to like I need to receive that in this

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00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 1: moment um. That's beautiful. We'll tell Becca thank you. And

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00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,719
Speaker 1: I think I were lesbian I because men have been

365
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Speaker 1: very frustrating for me. If I were lesbian or any

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00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 1: kind of tendency in that direction, I think I would

367
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Speaker 1: go there. But it's just not my tea. Oh. If

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Speaker 1: there's any proof that we don't choose our sexuality, it's

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Speaker 1: that all straight women would go lesbian if they had

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Speaker 1: the choice. Yeah, this is a good time to take

371
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 1: a little break. We'll be right back though. Alrighty, let's

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Speaker 1: get back to it. So I wanted to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about for you your experiences dating man, and I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't want to generalize, but I find that

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Speaker 1: for those of us who do who are trans women

376
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: who date men, oh girl, it is like really a

377
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: whole set of issues and struggles and complications that leads

378
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: being identified or trans women who date women just it's

379
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: not the same experience. What do you what do you

380
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,760
Speaker 1: think girl having been good? Lord, Like, how do we

381
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: even begin to unpack that? In my experience that I'd

382
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,919
Speaker 1: say upwards of of the men I've ever been with

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00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 1: our garden variety straight, they've never dated men. They have

384
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: no interest in men. They like women, and some of

385
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: those women include trans women. But every single one of

386
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 1: them is terrified that other people are going to think

387
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 1: that they're gay because they're dating a trans woman. You know,

388
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 1: for a while, I went through a very to put it,

389
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: mildly promiscuous face. I slept with me too. No shame here,

390
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,960
Speaker 1: I've lived. We both lived, honey, Yes, we have lived.

391
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 1: I think it's a common thing. I think it's a

392
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,439
Speaker 1: common thing. I think it was a similar place in

393
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 1: your trangestion that it was in mind, which is it's

394
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,359
Speaker 1: kind of early. It's when you've suddenly become attractive for

395
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 1: the first time and men want you, and it's so

396
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 1: incredibly affirming, particularly when you're still figuring out what kind

397
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: of woman you are to like, have straight men want you?

398
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: Is is? It's really juicy. It has a lot of power,

399
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 1: and but I can never turn off my kind of intellectual,

400
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: sociological brain. And I asked every single man I slept

401
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 1: with how you became interested in trans women? And what

402
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 1: is your interest and trans women? And I learned a

403
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: lot and I've got a fairly sizeable case study. What

404
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 1: if they say, girl, what if they say, what is

405
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: the top three things they said? Because they're saying the

406
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: same things over and over again. I do this too,

407
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm always curious. Excellent, it's O great. Okay, First,

408
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting to me that literally all but one man

409
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 1: came to trans woman in the same way. Half of

410
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: them that tended to be the older half had met

411
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 1: some woman at some point, been attracted to her, flirted

412
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: with or whatever, and then found out she was trans.

413
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: They didn't go through with it then, but then it

414
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: got stuck in their head, and then they later started

415
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: seeking out trans women. The other half was through pornography,

416
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: because it's so easy to find online porn. Now you're

417
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 1: in the privacy of your own room, there's no one

418
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 1: to judge you. So they started exploring things, and that

419
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: novelty leads them to trans Then they get fixated and

420
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,479
Speaker 1: then they seek us out. The one exception, and this

421
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: is why I think this point is interesting. The one

422
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 1: exception was this man who just kind of shrugged it

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00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 1: off and said, I grew up in San Francisco, so

424
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: they were just around. Like to him, it was like

425
00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: a redhead or like a you know, a fat girl.

426
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 1: It was just like it was just another variety of

427
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: woman that he was accustomed to, and so he felt

428
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:30,880
Speaker 1: no shame about it. For him, it was just very

429
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: much like that, they're women I've seen around. It's no

430
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,239
Speaker 1: big deal that fascinated me as far as what they like.

431
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 1: And it turns out this is my experience with lesbians too,

432
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: So I think it really does say something. The number

433
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: one thing is it's the femininity of trans women. It's

434
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: it's kind of easy to understand because and frankly, a

435
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,520
Speaker 1: lot of the men that I used to sleep with

436
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: were married, and a lot of them had the same

437
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 1: story of when they first got married, their wife was

438
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: like really feminine, beautiful and were lingerie and and was

439
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 1: sexy and that was part of their life. And then

440
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 1: over time they became mothers, they became more casual, they

441
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: became just regular women. And these men still crave that

442
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: femininity and that kind of thrill and the way that

443
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: it elicits male desire. But also that's been true of

444
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: the lesbians. Like the lesbians I've dated, all the ones

445
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: who have been attracted to me and have come on

446
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: to me tended to be masculine the center, and lesbians

447
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: who like femininity, they crave femininity, that's what they love

448
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: and a woman, So that's overridingly the major thing that

449
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: attracts people. Beyond that, there is and this is where

450
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about this, about where you

451
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: and I are slight outliers amongst our circles, and that

452
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: you and I are quite discreet about our bodies and

453
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 1: things that we do with them. And I think that

454
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 1: might be a generational thing because we're the same age.

455
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't grow up on the internet, whereas

456
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: kids today they post pictures of themselves like whole transition timelines,

457
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: and they're open about everything. That's like a horrifying thought

458
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: to me. Like I'm very private, and so I'm always

459
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 1: a little bit head attempt to discuss it, but i

460
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: will say that, um, I hate talking about the stuff.

461
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: I think I know where you're going with this. That

462
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 1: a lot of the reasons straight age and affect men

463
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: seek us out or for very specific sexual reasons, for

464
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: very specific body parts that some trans people have in

465
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: some trans people don't, and for very specific sexual acts.

466
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: So it's like, how do we have this conversation about

467
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: dating sex wat straight men or into trans women without

468
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: I think for me the issue is not contributing to

469
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: the further objectification of trans bodies. And I think for me,

470
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: a sex act is not gendered. In a sex act

471
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: doesn't like sort of denote someone's sexual orientation. I guess

472
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: that's a liberal sort of assumption about sex acts. And

473
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 1: other people think that a sex act means something very

474
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: specific about someone, right, It's like you said, it's a

475
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: physical act. It's just bodily pleasure. It doesn't like what

476
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: does it matter? But these aren't say man you'll see

477
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: on Twitter who say I won't wash between my cheeks

478
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: in the shower because it's gay. Like there's such profound

479
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 1: right absolutely, And there's this whole thing on Twitter that's

480
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 1: kind of recurringin of is it gay? Hey guys, is

481
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: it gay to X Y and Z? Is a gay?

482
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: To eat a banana? Is gay? Because men are so straight,

483
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: men are so terrified of being seen as gay and

484
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 1: less masculine, which it points to a whole bigger issue

485
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 1: around misogyny and patriarchy. If a straights, this man has

486
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: his straights, this wife put something in his butt, he's

487
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: somehow gay. The insanity of that, on the face of it,

488
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: that like a physical act between a man and a

489
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: woman can somehow change a person's identity. I think the

490
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: emphasis that we put on identity, the success of that

491
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: is fracturing, and I think trans people are part of

492
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 1: that fracturing, And then part of the reaction against trans

493
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: people is because of the fear that comes with that fracturing.

494
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 1: The fact is that sexual orientation as identity is a

495
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: very new concept. It's maybe less than a hundred years old.

496
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: For most of human history, people sleep with people, and

497
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: men sometimes sleep with men and sometimes sleep with women

498
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: and vice versa. And there was never any sense of, oh,

499
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: this person is gay. It's they might do a gay thing,

500
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: they might have sex men, but then marry a woman.

501
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: It wasn't the static identity. And I understand, like I

502
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: understand that aspect of identity politics, that it helps us

503
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: find our community and look at these kind of stress

504
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: points and systemic systems of oppression. But still our identities

505
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: aren't that static for the most part, and it goes

506
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: both ways. We're talking about straight men's fear. But I

507
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: remember once I was with some gay men and this

508
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: one guy sheepishly admitted that he is attracted to women

509
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: and used to date women, but he felt that once

510
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: he came out as gay and it became such an

511
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: important part of his identity in this community that he

512
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: had to shut down that part of himself that he

513
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: felt like other gay men in his circle wouldn't consider

514
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: him one of them if he also dated women. We

515
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: really want to put people in this like very limiting camp,

516
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 1: and it affects everyone. It prevents us all from having

517
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: a greater range of experiences and ways of loving and

518
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 1: being loved. That's so deep. A friend of mine who

519
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: is who identifies as gay, he's a gay man of

520
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 1: known this friend forever. He sleeps with women as well,

521
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: And for him, he identifies as gay because ultimately he

522
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: wants to love another man and be in a loving

523
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: relationship with another man, but his sexuality is more fluid,

524
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: and so that's kind of how he navigates. And then

525
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: my brother called himself be practicing homosexual because he prefers

526
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: the idea of practice to orientation, so that there when

527
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 1: it comes to sexuality. For him, it's not about identity.

528
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: So there's so many different ways of looking at sexuality

529
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: and it's complicated, And these conversations have been happening for decades,

530
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 1: but a lot of straight identified men who find themselves

531
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: are tried to trans women are not engaged in these conversations.

532
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: But I think a larger conversation around homophobia, and like

533
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: that's a really big piece of this whole conversation that

534
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: we have to have around dating trans folks and like homophobia. Right, Like,

535
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: what I realized is that if any man dates me,

536
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: at least publicly, he has to be really comfortable with

537
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: people assuming he's gay, because the womanhood of trans women

538
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: is often disavowed, is invalidated, and so because so many

539
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: people don't think they trans women are women, they assume

540
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: that the men who date us must be gay. Right.

541
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: For years, I dated a guy who never would have

542
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: ever claimed me I thought I was in love with him,

543
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: and I'm glad I was able to get myself out

544
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: of that. But there's so many women that I've talked

545
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: to for the years who've been in situations like that

546
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: with men that they were in love with who would

547
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: never claim them publicly. And certainly, what I've learned is

548
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: have to make different choices, right, like, what's my part

549
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: in this? I have to choose different kinds of men,

550
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: and certain things need to be unaccemptable. That's exactly right.

551
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a single biggest issue with trans women.

552
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: I think it's exactly the thing that that is the

553
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: biggest problem with as I've talked about disclosure, with casting

554
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: six men as trans women. I think it's a thing

555
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: that underlies the violence against trans women. I mean to me,

556
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: I always think about the case of Mercedes Williamson, who

557
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: for for those who don't know, the short version is,

558
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: and I'll spare some of the worst details, but this

559
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: young trans woman was found bludgeon to death. This young

560
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: man was quickly caught and he told the police that

561
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: he had met Mercedes online, didn't know she was trans

562
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: until they were together, and he put his hand up

563
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: her skirt. He blacked out, and the next thing he knows,

564
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: he's standing over her dead body. And that particular narrative,

565
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: which would be called the trans panic defense, is admissible,

566
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: and many courts and men could have been able to

567
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: get away with murder just by simply claiming I didn't

568
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: know she was trans, and that like caused such a

569
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 1: crisis in me. I acted out of violence, and with

570
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: no one, even the victim it speak up and say

571
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. And what's unique about Mercedes case

572
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: is that pretty soon thereafter the man who killed her

573
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: actually tearfully confessed, No, that's not that's not the story.

574
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: In fact, we've been dating for six months. I was

575
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: very much in love with her, but he was part

576
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: of a gang, frankly, and the gang was very homophobic,

577
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: and when one of his friends found out that he

578
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: was dating a trans woman, there was exactly what we said,

579
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: this assumption that means he's gay and we're gonna have

580
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: to hurt him, And rather than face that, he destroyed

581
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: the thing that created that dissonance, and helm he destroyed Mercedes,

582
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: this woman he loved and now profoundly regrets it. And

583
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: so this is another one of those cases where the

584
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: guy was straight, but the fear that he was going

585
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: to be seen as gay and other men's judgment that

586
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: he was gay for being with a trans woman led

587
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: him to this incredible violence. And I think we face

588
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: a kind of mini version of that crisis every time

589
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: we date a man. That's been my experience. But I

590
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: think with under neath all this is that men need

591
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: to get over their homophobia. Oh my god, yes, because

592
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: really it's like transphobia and homophobia and then become so

593
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: inextricably linked to me, and people are like so terrified

594
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 1: that somebody might think that they're gay, and like they

595
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: have shame around that. If you think about that, it's

596
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: absolutely ridiculous, it really is, But it just it points

597
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: to a wider social context where I mean, we're having

598
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: a crisis of masculinity. I would say globally really, but

599
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: particularly in this country. I mean, Trump is very much

600
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: an embodiment of this kind of misogynistic, patriarchal reaction against

601
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: the breaking down of gender norms. And there is a

602
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: kind of truth in which that so much of our

603
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: society is built upon this foundational binary of male and

604
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: female and knowing who you are and where you belong.

605
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: It's hard for anyone to figure out who you are

606
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: and where you belong, and so society tells you, at

607
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: the very least, no matter what else, like your male

608
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: and therefore you can do X, Y and Z, and

609
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: you should behave a B and C that there's a

610
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: certain kind of I think for people like you and

611
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: I have maybe like it's really scary, uh, and we

612
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: want to escape those confines. But I think for average

613
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: person that's really comforting to know, Okay, this is how

614
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: I behave, these are the things I'm allowed to do,

615
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: and the people I date are going to be like this.

616
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: And those two don't threaten each other. They support each other.

617
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Feminine women and masculine men, like I'm going to be

618
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: the bread owner and you're going to be the emotional

619
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: and support and the homemaker. Like we all we know

620
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: where we stand, and that's really comforting. And whereas diarity as,

621
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: I think trans people like you and I actually don't

622
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: threaten that in most ways. But I think trans people

623
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: in general, the idea that you could be born into

624
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: one side of this and then move to the other

625
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: or not fit in or disrupt these kind of power

626
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: norms is threatening to the entire worldview, And for me,

627
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: it's the only way to understand why there's such intense

628
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: vitriol and such an emotional intensity around trans people. I

629
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: think those ideas certainly exist, but the lived experiences that

630
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: people's lives throughout history at Lee always challenged those ideas

631
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: that like men are supposed to do this, women are

632
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: supposed to do this, and I think that is the

633
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: sort of sad reality. I mean, what keep has come

634
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: up a lot on this podcast is like that crisis

635
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: of masculinity and that this patriarchal sort of embrace the

636
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: traditional masculinity is actually not really doing man any favorites.

637
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: And I think there's a betrayal that happens right, especially

638
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: for white men. I think straight white men, is that

639
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be this and this and this. Then

640
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you don't have a job to

641
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: take care of your family, and you can't provide and

642
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: all the things that you were told that you're supposed

643
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: to be because you're a man, you're not able to fulfill.

644
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: And instead of like questioning all those things that they

645
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: were taught about who they were supposed to be, it's

646
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: who is to blame for this? Like who do I

647
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: lash out at? And I think that explains a lot

648
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: of the phenomenon of forty five. Right, I'm gonna lash

649
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: out at trans people, I'm gonna lash out at immigrants,

650
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna lash out it you know, automation and shipping

651
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: jobs overseas and like all of these things instead of

652
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: questioning some people are questioning those systems. But I think

653
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: the system of masculinity and patriarchy is one of those

654
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: things that I would encourage more straight identify this gender

655
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: men to be in question of to get to a

656
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: place of freedom, to get to a more of a

657
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: place of like, let and go those expectations so you

658
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: can live more authentically. That's something I've been saying for

659
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: years around gender. But I think that I really believe

660
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,479
Speaker 1: that when we can let go of the expectations that

661
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: sort of exist around that stuff, we can just be

662
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: I always think about friends Finans Wretched of the Earth

663
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: and his kind of discussion of the way that an

664
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: oppressor becomes oppressed themselves through their act of oppressing, You

665
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: get trapped in your own oppression. They create this kind

666
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: of framework for what it means to have power and

667
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: be deserving of that power and keeping that power, and

668
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: then they end up becoming trapped by it in ways

669
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: that make them really miserable. I mean, straight white men

670
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: also die younger and have heart attacks and are depressed,

671
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: and like the suicide rate for white men is like

672
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: skyrocketing and this country because they've trapped themselves in this box.

673
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought a brace too, because there's no

674
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: way to separate any of this from white supremacy. And

675
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: I do think Trump's an example of a man's man,

676
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 1: a man who speaks his mind, who it says whatever

677
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: he wants, who grabs women by the pussy, who wants

678
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: like a beautiful model for a wife like that is

679
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: this kind of traditional view of masculinity. But we do

680
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: see it as this kind of universal thing until it's critiqued,

681
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: and then you realize it's a very specific, modern, white supremacist, heteronormative,

682
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: sis normative, patriarchal, capitalistic view of men and family, and

683
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: it's it's falling apart of the seams. But I think

684
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: for all those people who have found comfort and security

685
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: and power in it, they're not gonna let it go

686
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: without a fight. Clearly the fight is on. And I

687
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: think the one thing I'll say about forty five, and

688
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: I'll have to say their name, but forty five is

689
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: that all the people that grab them by the p

690
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: word and all of the things, all the really racist

691
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: things he said during his first campaign, people voted for

692
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: him knowing all of this, and so I don't think

693
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: people voted for him to despite those things. I actually

694
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: think they voted for him because of those things. Yeah,

695
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: he was reinforcing these kind of norms that that they

696
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: had grown reliant on. And this increasing liberal culture and

697
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: all of media coming out of New York and l

698
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: A with you know, so many diverse casts and like

699
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: gender fluid people is really threatening. And to have someone

700
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: going to say, like, no, that's all sick and toxic.

701
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: My way is the best way. It's people a lot

702
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: of people relieved and wanted that, you know, at least

703
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: a slight digression. But in twenty sixteen, that was when

704
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: North Carolina introduced HB two, the bathroom Bill, and Loretta

705
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: Lynch had her brilliant, beautiful press conferencing we're going to

706
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: protect trans youth and we're gonna stand by you. And

707
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: that happened that year, and there were so many thing

708
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: pieces that came out after the election that actually blamed

709
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: trans people for there were so many people are like

710
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: liberals are embracing transgender people in bathrooms and that's why

711
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: he won um And it was deep, it was deep

712
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: sort of being in this space of being sort of

713
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: blamed for our visibility, us just asking for dignity, um

714
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: and not being discriminated against was blamed for this. We'll

715
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: be right back. Okay, we're back, And my other conversation

716
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: is around dating. It's and I've talked about being a

717
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: feminist and the femininity of trans women is it's the

718
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: number one thing they've said as well. So it's interesting

719
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: that both our research just given us that finding. But

720
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 1: I think what I found for me is that a

721
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: lot of those men become very disappointed when they see

722
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: I'm very film you know, if you go to my

723
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: Instagram today, I'm like serving. But but I'm also a

724
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: feminist and I'm also someone who thinks critically about the

725
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: world around me, and that is not always compatible with

726
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 1: what a lot of these men are looking for when

727
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: they seek out trans women for a very specific reasons.

728
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: And so that's been a really interesting rub for me.

729
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: But then for you, you're really smart woman, I think

730
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: that there's the trans piece, there's the film piece, But

731
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: then like, do you find being a really smart critically

732
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: think being trans woman? I don't know if that serves

733
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: when it comes to dating men. Oh no, I mean

734
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: and but that's a common thing for all women's sis

735
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: and trans that when you are ambitious, when you're successful,

736
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: when you're independent, when you're smart. I'm both amazed and

737
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: embarrassed by how quickly I learned early in my transition

738
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: when I started dating men to downplay my intelligence and

739
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: my successes in order to appease a guy. Z go.

740
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: I'll never forget. One time in l A, I got

741
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: picked up by this really cute lift driver I was

742
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: very attracted to. It was tall, was gorgeous, and he

743
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: was kind of bragging on himself about, Oh, I host

744
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: an open mic comedy show every once in a while. Oh,

745
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: there's this one agency that like, you know, if she

746
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: came to my show once, like and he asked me

747
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: about myself, I'm like, yeah, you know, I got nominate

748
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: for an Emmy this year and like X, Y and

749
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: Z and I just watched him deflate. This man that

750
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: I was very attracted to. And at that point, if

751
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,800
Speaker 1: you had asked me how, I had no problem with

752
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,959
Speaker 1: where he was at in his career and I would

753
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: have gone out with him. But then just to watch

754
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: him literally shrink when he realized I was so much

755
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: more successful than him. That's that's frustrating for for all women.

756
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: That's so deep and girl, you know I've experienced that too.

757
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 1: But at the same time, we've worked so hard, and

758
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: I've worked so hard, and I'm so proud of what

759
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: I've accomplished, and I won't dim my life for anyone,

760
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: for any man, Absolutely not. It's just tragic that we

761
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: would whoever have to. Okay, So I just want to

762
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 1: run this by you. So I recently met this dude

763
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: who's adventure capital. He's like fifty three years old, and

764
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: we were talking and he's been dating trans women secretly

765
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: for like fifteen years, right, for about fifteen years. No

766
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: one in his life knows. And he said to me

767
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: that if anyone in his work found out that he

768
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: was into trans women, it would ruin his career, that

769
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: they would be used against him. And it just because

770
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: finance is just really conservative, but it's like it actually

771
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: is illegal to, you know, discriminate against someone based on

772
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: their sexual orientation. That like is constitutionally a thing. Now,

773
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: like with this person lose their career or is it

774
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: his shame? Is it his shame that he's internalized and

775
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: is it the story he's told himself or with that

776
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: really happened. What are your thoughts on that. I mean,

777
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 1: you have a good point. It's hard to imagine anyone,

778
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: especially in this day and age, fired for that, both

779
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: because of the legality, but also because trans people are

780
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: such a prominent part of culture now. And I do

781
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: think absolutely the shame is probably the largest piece of it.

782
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: But I do think it goes back to the way

783
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: that men police each other's gender and performance of masculinity.

784
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: So while again and I don't know the workings of

785
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: a hedge fund, but assuming that maybe they couldn't legally

786
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: be outright fired because they did it a trans woman,

787
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: I can see a man fearing that suddenly he wouldn't

788
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: be invited to the basketball game afterwards, like where a

789
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: lot of the deals happen and suddenly wouldn't get the

790
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: best offers. And suddenly, you know, the very thing that

791
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: actually happens to trans woman when they come out on

792
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: a job, which is they don't get fired, but all

793
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: of a sudden their issues with their performed months and

794
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 1: within a few months they're gone. I can see that

795
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: kind of thing maybe happening to Amanda, But also frankly,

796
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,959
Speaker 1: like I don't give a ship again ultimately, like that's

797
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: their problem. And to choose to not allow yourself a

798
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: full and transparent life and to pursue the things that

799
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 1: you actually love because of fear of the toxic judgment

800
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: of others. It's tragic, I suppose, but really that's on them.

801
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: It's on them, But I think I trans women are

802
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: reaping the sort of consequences of that, right. I guess

803
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: what's so frustrating is that there's so many men out

804
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: there who are into us and they're invisible. Oh my god,

805
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: it's insane. It is the single biggest kept secrets. It's

806
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: straight males desire for transforming. There was a study out

807
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: a while ago where where some data company it might

808
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: have even been Google's Dirty Thoughts project, um, but they

809
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: research porn habits. And then porn hub also does this.

810
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: There was a book called a Billion Wicked Thoughts, So

811
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: you're thinking of that, maybe maybe there's something else. Then

812
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: did a study on people search engines yet and then

813
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: porn hub also releases data about their audience and who

814
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: watches what, and trans pornography is typically like in the

815
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: top five most viewed categories, so it's incredibly popularly hugely

816
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: popular and and this is one from porn Hub that

817
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: always fascinated me what they found. And this is according

818
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: to people who are looking at porn in private and

819
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: their own home. The men that watch trans porn watch

820
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: women in general and don't watch gay porn. And the

821
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: men who watch gay porn don't watch trans women porn

822
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,720
Speaker 1: like like, even when they're free like of any judgment,

823
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: it's consistent, like all of the data shows this. The

824
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: men who like trans women tend to be straight. Yes,

825
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: thank you for remembering that. I haven't thought about that

826
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: book and forever. And this wasn't like asking people. This

827
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: was looking at people's search history. Is what people are

828
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: doing in the dark, and that's very Yeah, that's still

829
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: in the So all of the anecdotal evidence of trans women,

830
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: all of the anecdote those of us who have gone

831
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: through from muscule phase of like you and I know

832
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: literally hundreds of trans women of dated men, like we

833
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: all have hundreds of experiences with men. All of the

834
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: data shows this. And yet because men will not be

835
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: open about it, and because this happenings in the dark,

836
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: allow the general public to continue assuming that only gay

837
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 1: men would like a trans woman. That this giant secret, this,

838
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: this giant misconception is just allowed to continue to to

839
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: fester and we're we all fall victim to it. So

840
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: what's it going to take to change that? That's the

841
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: question I always have, that is what is it going

842
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: to take? And a lot of the girls I talked

843
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: to like, we need a famous macho celebrity to come

844
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: out and tell people that he likes trans women. I

845
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: don't know if that's I don't know if that's it.

846
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: I think it's a cultural thing. I think again, it

847
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: has to be. It's a conversation, a bigger conversation around masculinity, homophobia,

848
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: anti stigmatizing, and creating new spaces for men to exist

849
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: in that are beyond what we've seen before. I just

850
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: remember this. I don't even know how to like process

851
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: as fully, but it brings me so much joy. When

852
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: I was in New York City filming the Mrs Fletcher,

853
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: an HBO show, there were two young men part of

854
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: the cast, and the two of them and plus another

855
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 1: woman from the set that the four of us became

856
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: a little family for the four months we were shooting

857
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: in New York and a friend of mine, a young

858
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: trans woman, Eve Linley, who's also an actress. Really lovely

859
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: young woman would would often hang out with us, and

860
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: both of the young men, who were both young, straight

861
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: white guys, confessed to me that they were really attracted

862
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: to Eve. And I was so fascinated by that. And

863
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: at one point I just I just had to know,

864
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,399
Speaker 1: does it does it bother you at all that she's trans?

865
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: Like would you be embarrassed? Like how do you feel

866
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: about that? And both of them, without pause, without self

867
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: conscious no, like they were trans woman in my high school,

868
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: Like it was that normality thing, Like they had absolutely

869
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: no issue with their attraction to Eve. It caused absolutely

870
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: no distress in them. It didn't make them rethinker their

871
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: masculinity or their sexuality in any way, shape or form.

872
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: And they just saw this really pretty girl who was

873
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: trans and it just didn't matter. It was a non issue.

874
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: That is the future. I do think it's starting to

875
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: happen with young people. I'm dating younger man, So you

876
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: gotta go, you gotta go where it's warm. Anyway, jin

877
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: this has been so amazing. I know we could talk

878
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: all day about this and many other issues, and we

879
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: will talk more in the future, but it's time to

880
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 1: wrap up, and I like to end the podcast with

881
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: a question that's from my therapy, from the community resiliency model,

882
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,439
Speaker 1: and it's the idea of both, and that if there's

883
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: something challenging that's going on in my life, what else

884
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: is true? What what can I lean into energetically that

885
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: can reset my nervous system, that can become a resource

886
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: and could be in a space of both and right,

887
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 1: that's the resilience space. So I want to ask you today,

888
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: jin what else is true? For you to die? I

889
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: know I've already talked about it, but I have to

890
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: return to it because specifically, the way that you frame

891
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: that and the way that that the what else is

892
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: true helps us cope or be resilient through the difficulties.

893
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: It's loving and being loved by a person by Becca specifically,

894
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: it's it's just everything else is easier because of that.

895
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: I care less what other people think. My parameters for

896
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: what success looks like, for what even being attracted means.

897
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: All of that has shifted because of the undeniable strength

898
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: and consistency of her love and the way that it

899
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: follows from the deep and true way that she sees me.

900
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: It's a yeah, oh, my gosh. Um, well, yeah, I'm crying.

901
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 1: I wish it for you. I wish it for everyone.

902
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: I really do. That is absolutely beautiful, maybe one of

903
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: the most people thinks I've heard in my life. Can

904
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: I also just say that until I was loved by Becca,

905
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: what really carried me through life was the sisterhood I

906
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: feel with other trans women, um and you among them.

907
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: The ways in which, starting about I don't know when

908
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: it was eight or ten years ago, all of us

909
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: came around and just became an active part of each

910
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 1: other's lives and made a conscious decision to support each

911
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: other no matter what, to applaud each other, to lift

912
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: each other up. Is one of the greatest gifts in

913
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: my life and I think is historically relevant and the

914
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: reason that trans people are so visible today. Thank you

915
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: Jim Richard's Girl, Thank you loveron Cox, Oh my God,

916
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: before we Go? People can watch you and Mrs Fletcher

917
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,479
Speaker 1: and in the revival litils My City? Where can people

918
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 1: find you? Online? And I am smartass gin on every

919
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 1: social media platform, so I'm very easy to find. I'm

920
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: most active on Twitter, probably more than anything else, despite

921
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,800
Speaker 1: the fact that depresses me consistently. Still on Twitter alive.

922
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: But yes, I'm smart as Jim. Thank you so much,

923
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: Jan Richard, you are a treasure. Thank you. I'm so

924
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: glad you're feeling that love right now. That just makes

925
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: me so happy work. Thank you. Yes, I love Jim

926
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: Richards so much. She's so smart. She always gives me

927
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: so much to think about. And this thing of being

928
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: loved and being seen and how healing that is. I

929
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: am happy to report I am now experiencing this um

930
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: I'm in love now, and the beautiful thing about it

931
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: is that it feels deeply healing. I feel like I

932
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: all the work that I've done over my lifetime, all

933
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 1: of the therapy I've had, all the healing work I've done,

934
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: has allowed me to be present for this love has

935
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: allowed me to be in a space of worthiness to

936
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 1: be able to receive this love. And I think really

937
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: for every trans person out there, particularly for trans women,

938
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: we have to do the work to to heal ourselves,

939
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: to address our traumas, to feel that we are worthy

940
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 1: of the most divine love that exists out there. We

941
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: have to do that work. And I I know from

942
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: my experience and Jen relate the same thing that the

943
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: universe begins to conspire when we have done what we

944
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: need to do to put the you know, the energy

945
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: in place to be able to receive. And I know

946
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: for sure in this moment, no matter what happens with

947
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: this relationship, that it is divine that My higher Power

948
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: has brought this man to me to experience this for

949
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: however long it's meant to be, and we are all

950
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: worthy of connection, belonging, We are all worthy of love.

951
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. If

952
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: you like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and

953
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: share with everyone you know. Join me next week from

954
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: my conversation with relationship expert and psychologist Dr Wendy Walsh.

955
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 1: She'll explain all my attachment issues and perhaps some of

956
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: yours too. You must tune in. You can find me

957
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook

958
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in

959
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: the luck. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of

960
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more

961
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

962
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,320
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.