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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing.

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Speaker 1: With this many agents on the ground, all the personnel,

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Speaker 1: all the technology, how is it possible? We take a

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Speaker 1: close look at exactly what the FBI is looking at

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Speaker 1: the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist, what can we learn?

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Speaker 1: Believe me a lot? This as the Pima County Sheriff

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Speaker 1: issues an urgent plea for every one in the surrounding

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Speaker 1: area to hand in video. Will it make a difference, Well,

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Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at the track record.

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Speaker 1: The answer is yes. Also at this hour, the FBI

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Speaker 1: Behavioral Analyst unit carefully reviewing not just the porch guy video,

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Speaker 1: but the alleged ransom note why, straight out to Dave

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Speaker 1: Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, Dave, a crew armed with

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Speaker 1: ladders has arrived at Nancy Guffries's home and gone up

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Speaker 1: on the roof. What can you tell me? Why are

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Speaker 1: they there?

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Speaker 2: This silver pickup truck with multiple ladders in the back

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Speaker 2: pulled onto the Guthrie property, pulled around the driveway and

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Speaker 2: got up on the house. We don't know what they

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Speaker 2: were looking for, and no announcement has been made, but

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Speaker 2: activity at Nancy Guthrie's home.

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Speaker 1: Now we've examined it like a Rubik's cube, over and over,

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Speaker 1: trying to discern what, if anything, we can learn from

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Speaker 1: the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist, and tonight our findings.

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Speaker 1: Joining us in All Star panel, but straight out to

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Speaker 1: special guest, Darren the Dude rosa tattoo artist, joining us

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Speaker 1: Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City, thirty plus years

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Speaker 1: in the tattoo business. Mister Rosa, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Let's start controlling. Please show the video of

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Speaker 1: the purp approaching Missus Guthrie's porch. The FBI, according to sources,

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Speaker 1: has enlarged, refined, and brought in a team of analysts

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Speaker 1: to review the tattoo. As you see, he very carefully

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Speaker 1: covered his arms and wrists, not just because he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to leave fingerprints. It's really hard to get an

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Speaker 1: arm print or an elbow print. That's not the reason

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Speaker 1: his body is totally covered. Now, let's iow the tattoo,

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Speaker 1: the sliver of tattoo that we see. We have learned

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Speaker 1: the FBI is doing exactly what we are doing. Darren

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Speaker 1: the dude, Rosa, you have studied this for hours. What

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Speaker 1: is as you call it, black and gray work?

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Speaker 3: Lacking gray work is a very prevalent style, not only

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Speaker 3: in the Southwestern area, but let's say the Southwestern area

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Speaker 3: among gangs. Mexican people who might be in these gangs

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Speaker 3: or cartels like to get black and gray. It's a

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Speaker 3: fine line. The outlines are done with a very fine needle.

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Speaker 3: The details, the shading is done with different dilutions of

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Speaker 3: black ink, and we termed that gray. So black and

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Speaker 3: gray is considered a style, and this is most likely

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Speaker 3: that style.

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Speaker 1: Now you mentioned gang cartel, I am certainly not convinced

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Speaker 1: that Nancy Guthrie's kid app has any of the hallmarks

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Speaker 1: of a cartel move. But what about a gang member?

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Speaker 1: Want to be what about family of gang member? What

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Speaker 1: about family of gang members and hangers on? I don't

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Speaker 1: think you can limit to just a gang or a

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Speaker 1: cartel member, because once a tattoo is observed by others,

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Speaker 1: they want to replicate it, right, and I want to

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Speaker 1: hone in on the black and gray. Okay, But as

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Speaker 1: to relating to a gang or a cartel, let's focus

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Speaker 1: on gang. Why do you believe the black and gray

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Speaker 1: is from the southwest or from a certain region of

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Speaker 1: the country, and what region exactly would that be, mister Rossa.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, first of all, let's deal with just the

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Speaker 3: practicality of black and gray. If we're talking about a

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Speaker 3: tattoo that was done in the penitentiary, these inmates don't

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Speaker 3: have access to color ink, but most likely they don't

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Speaker 3: even want. This is a style that's been embellishing gangs

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Speaker 3: for years, and they've honed this style, this very subtle

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Speaker 3: gradations of ink to a fine art, and this is

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Speaker 3: even considered hallmarks of people who have moved up in

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Speaker 3: the echelons of a gang.

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Speaker 1: So why do you say that, Well, these people.

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Speaker 3: Are going to be doing a lot of time. They're

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Speaker 3: not giving up, they're not becoming informants. They're going to

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Speaker 3: be spending five years, ten years behind bars.

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Speaker 4: They have a lot of time to kill.

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Speaker 1: Guys with us is Darren the dude Russa joining us

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Speaker 1: from Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City? Thirty years

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Speaker 1: plus of experience in the tattoo aren't black and gray? Now,

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Speaker 1: I just want to be sure we understand. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever seen a child with the coloring book, and they

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Speaker 1: outline the picture heavily with the crayon, and then there's

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Speaker 1: a lighter hue the same color on the inside. That's

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Speaker 1: how I'm equating your description of black and gray. Would

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Speaker 1: that be correct?

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Speaker 3: Well, no, because it wouldn't be with the same quote

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Speaker 3: unquote crayon. The dilutions is what I called it, are using.

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Speaker 3: You know, let's say it was penitentiary. So the dilutions

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Speaker 3: would be created using different concentrations of black ink diluted

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Speaker 3: with water, but most likely a little bit of alcohol

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Speaker 3: because you know, for germs, and it also helps spread

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Speaker 3: the ink and create a finer mist of shading the alcohol.

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Speaker 1: But black and gray work is a hallmark of a

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Speaker 1: certain region of our country. You're saying that too.

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Speaker 3: Oh, yes, and absolutely. This is also the kind of

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Speaker 3: the style of tattooing that withstands heavy sun exposure. So

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Speaker 3: because like I said, this style fine line typically single

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Speaker 3: needle work, and you know these people are are out

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Speaker 3: in the sun. The southern western states get heavy sun exposure.

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Speaker 3: So this style of artistry can withstand the elements.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned a single needle, would black and gray be

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Speaker 1: done with multiple needs to that degree of fineness?

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Speaker 3: The treating would be done with multiple needles. Typically, the

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Speaker 3: outline is done with a single needle, and it's actually

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Speaker 3: a very difficult style to do. So an artist can

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Speaker 3: gain quite a status in a penitentiary if he's adept

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Speaker 3: at this style.

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Speaker 1: Darren, the dude Rossa joining us from Rising Dragon Tattoos

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Speaker 1: in New York. What do you make of this tattoo

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Speaker 1: in the sense of I believe it's part of a

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Speaker 1: much bigger tattoo, and that leads me you think it's

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Speaker 1: part of a sleeve? What do you think?

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Speaker 3: Oh? Absolutely, I mean, if this is all we're seeing,

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Speaker 3: and what is this like barely half of an inch,

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Speaker 3: this is most likely the continuation of something that covers

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Speaker 3: this man's entire arm. Most likely he's got tattoos on

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Speaker 3: his hands, He's he's wearing this, this hooded mask, this

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Speaker 3: pola clava. Most likely he's got tattoos on his neck

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Speaker 3: and maybe even something under his eye, because this is

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Speaker 3: what they.

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Speaker 1: Do, Darren, you mentioned covering up his arm. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: want to get back to the full sleeve because to me,

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Speaker 1: from what I've observed from inmates over all the years

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Speaker 1: I prosecuted and investigated in covered crimes, once you start,

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Speaker 1: you can't stop. And that leads me to think this

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Speaker 1: on him looks part of a bigger tattoo that tells

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Speaker 1: me it's a full sleep. And once somebody gets the

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Speaker 1: full sleep, it's like they can't stop. I mean, do

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Speaker 1: you think people get addicted to getting tattoos? I do.

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Speaker 5: You know getting addicted?

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Speaker 3: Has you know that that stigma that this is like

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Speaker 3: heroin or something? But to focus on this guy, uh,

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Speaker 3: you know, he was probably an inmate at a penitentiary,

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Speaker 3: and let's not forget they have a lot of time

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Speaker 3: to kill. Yes, tattoos can be addictive. People use them

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Speaker 3: for therapy. They call it ink therapy.

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Speaker 1: Did you just say ink therapy?

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Speaker 5: What is that ink therapy? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: That's that's that's a phrase that's bouncing around. Especially in

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Speaker 3: the winter months right a lot of people get seasonal depression.

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Speaker 3: People come in for a little ink therapy, or they're

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Speaker 3: going through some stress in their life, maybe a divorce

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Speaker 3: or or something. Maybe they lost a loved one, a parent.

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Speaker 3: They come in for some therapy.

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Speaker 1: H never heard that. You just taught me something new. So, Darren,

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Speaker 1: if we believe that he has the wrist tattoo, which

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Speaker 1: is part of a sleeve. Why stop there, arego? It

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Speaker 1: follows that he would have a neck tattoo. And even more,

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Speaker 1: do you agree with that? That's who we're looking for.

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Speaker 1: That's why I care about this guy's tattoo.

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Speaker 3: I agree one hundred percent. I mean eighty two degrees.

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Speaker 3: And he's wearing his hooded mask. He's got tattoos on

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Speaker 3: his neck, most likely you know, on the edges of

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Speaker 3: his face. This is the kind of Southwestern state gangs.

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Speaker 3: They love getting heavily covered in black and gray style tattoos.

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Speaker 1: So in your experience to nail this point down thirty

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Speaker 1: plus years, Darren the dude Rosa. Once you start with

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Speaker 1: the wrist, the risk is part of a bigger tattoo,

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Speaker 1: which would be the sleeve. That's why they call it

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Speaker 1: a sleeve. It's like a leave of your shirt or jacket.

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Speaker 5: It's like your shirt.

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Speaker 1: The hand is covered could indicate part of the hand.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the picture game control room, you

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Speaker 1: don't see it ending as it goes down into the glove.

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Speaker 1: Does that signify a hand tattoo in your experience, does

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Speaker 1: that suggest to you that he would have another sleeve

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Speaker 1: on the other arm and possibly the neck. That's a

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Speaker 1: simple yes, no, absolutely yes. Okay, let's move from that.

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Speaker 1: So we're looking for a guy from this region, exposed

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Speaker 1: to the sun, potential gang connections, with a full sleeve

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Speaker 1: and hand, possibly two sleeves and neck. Now, is it

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Speaker 1: your experience that people that get tattoos first get their

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Speaker 1: dominant hand tattooed or their other hand non dominant? Which

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Speaker 1: one do they typically tattoo first?

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Speaker 3: Right, A lot of right handed people will start with

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Speaker 3: their left arm. So if this guy has his right

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Speaker 3: arm and it looks like he's right handed, because every

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Speaker 3: time he goes up to that ring camera, he starts

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Speaker 3: off with his right arm. That's my own little analysis

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Speaker 3: of his actions. He starts with his right and then

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Speaker 3: his left is kind of helping him. So I would

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Speaker 3: say he's fully sleeved on his left arm and then

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Speaker 3: he got his right arm done, because this is what

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Speaker 3: most people that have come into my studio do.

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Speaker 1: So he's right handed, so he would have typically start

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Speaker 1: with tests on the left and then go to the right.

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Speaker 1: So that tells me I can assume that he has

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Speaker 1: two sleeves and at least one hand and possibly the neck. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you have stated repeatedly references to jail tats. Now they're

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Speaker 1: called jail tats, But I believe this tattoo is not

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Speaker 1: a jail tat because, to my unstrained eye, after all

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Speaker 1: the years I have investigated and prosecuted defendants, jail tats

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Speaker 1: don't look good. They're very crude. This tat is not crude.

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Speaker 1: It's very refined. So why do you refer to jail tats.

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Speaker 3: Some of these inmates who spend a lot of time

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Speaker 3: in jail, they develop sophisticated networks with the guards, with

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Speaker 3: the staff. These days, it's very easy to smuggle in.

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Speaker 3: The machines have gotten smaller, compact, more sophisticated. It's my

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Speaker 3: belief that he got this while.

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Speaker 5: In garcerated, and.

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Speaker 3: The level of sophistication has become exponential even in populations

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Speaker 3: that are incarcerated.

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Speaker 1: Would inmates, let's say in the pen penitentiary CI correctional institute,

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Speaker 1: would they have access to multiple needles or do they

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Speaker 1: go single needle?

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Speaker 3: Well, like I said, the machines have become very sophisticated.

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Speaker 3: They've become compact. We now have a system that uses

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Speaker 3: cartridges that lock into the pen like apparatus. It would

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Speaker 3: be very easy. These these needles are about an inch

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Speaker 3: and a half. It would be very easy for them

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Speaker 3: to obtain a single needle for the line and a

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Speaker 3: cluster of needles for the shading.

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Speaker 1: When we're talking about jail house tats, here's my thinking.

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Speaker 1: If you're in a jail, think of Andy of Mayberry.

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Speaker 1: You're there for a brief period of time because you

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Speaker 1: have been sentenced to a misdemeanor, and they just keep

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Speaker 1: you in the county jail because you're going to be

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Speaker 1: out like that, there's no use in putting you in

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Speaker 1: the system. It takes forever, or you're awaiting trial or

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Speaker 1: a court date. Once you're sentenced, or you have a

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Speaker 1: long wait for trial, such as Epstein, you go into

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Speaker 1: a bigger facility and sometimes a CI correctional institute. But

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Speaker 1: those people are typically sentenced and doing a long stint.

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Speaker 1: Why do I care, Because if this guy was in

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Speaker 1: a CI to get that tattoo, that means he's got

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Speaker 1: a record. So now I've got a guy from the

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Speaker 1: Southwest region that spends a lot of time in the

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Speaker 1: sun that got black and gray work, likely has two

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Speaker 1: full sleeves and more and has done jailed time Okay,

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Speaker 1: isn't it true, Darren the dude Rosa, that at your

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Speaker 1: tattoo parlor, Rising Dragon, you have, for instance, a catalog

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Speaker 1: or a series of tattoos that your customers can look

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Speaker 1: at and pick out a tattoo. Isn't that true?

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Speaker 3: We do, But I would dare say that that these

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Speaker 3: people are not flipped catalogs. They're going off the cuff,

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Speaker 3: and an artist kind of gains cred by being able

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Speaker 3: to do sophisticated custom work.

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Speaker 1: Ah, so customer that they envision and they say, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is what I want. Now you created. Would you

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Speaker 1: agree that once you start with tats, very often you

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Speaker 1: stick with the same tattoo artists, and with tattoos of

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Speaker 1: this magnitude, you would remember doing.

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Speaker 3: It absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever been approached by law enforcement to identify

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Speaker 1: a tattoo?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 6: I have.

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Speaker 3: About twenty thirty years ago, I was approached by FBI.

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Speaker 3: They were trying to identify some of the victims, which

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Speaker 3: happened to be prostitutes or we could say sex workers.

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Speaker 3: This specific killer a serial killer. The police had pulled

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Speaker 3: over him in his pickup truck. They found a decapitated body,

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Speaker 3: which led them to more in the far rockaway Brooklyn area,

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Speaker 3: but my studio in Manhattan was one of the studio,

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Speaker 3: so they came to me to see if I could

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Speaker 3: identify any of these women.

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Speaker 1: Could you?

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Speaker 3: I did not recognize the particular tattoos Old Dough another artist.

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Speaker 3: I felt it was more his style.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. And here is the million dollar question. Let me

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Speaker 1: rephrase the one point two plus million dollar question. You've

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Speaker 1: looked at this sliver of tattoo. What do you think

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Speaker 1: it is? Is it a cross? Is it a flower?

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Speaker 1: Is it a demon? Is it a dragon? Is it

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Speaker 1: a creature like you've got on your neck? What is it?

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Speaker 3: Well, we can tell it's not geometric. It's it's got

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Speaker 3: wavy lines. The prevalent type of imagery these people get

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Speaker 3: h Catholic imagery of memorials to deceased gang members or

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Speaker 3: family members. Most likely it's saints, clouds, roses. These kind

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Speaker 3: of images that that memorialize family members are gang members

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Speaker 3: who become like family members to these people.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Gray with me, Darren the Dude

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Speaker 1: Rosa thirty years in the business at Rising Dragon Tattoos,

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Speaker 1: New York City, also joining us special guest Jeffrey Gentry

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified, hold on, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: put all the stuff about blood pattern. Jeffrey Gentry, certified

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Speaker 1: forensics expert with a certain expertise in tattoos, author of

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Speaker 1: Forensic science Applications to Death and crime scene Investigation, and more. Jeffrey,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us now that you have

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Speaker 1: soaked in everything that Rosa had to say, as well

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Speaker 1: as study the tattoos. Sliver, I want to hear all

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Speaker 1: your thoughts.

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Speaker 7: You came to the right forensic analysts, Nancy. I love tattoos,

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Speaker 7: first of all. I usually am on the show with

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Speaker 7: a long sleeved shirt and tie for that very reason.

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Speaker 7: So if you look at my arms, I've got little

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Speaker 7: dead bodies, chalk outlines, I've got dinosaurs, I've got DNA

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Speaker 7: all up and down my arms. I've got Jurassic Park,

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Speaker 7: a little bit of everything, crime scene tape around my wrist,

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Speaker 7: and my tattoos are very special to me. It's things

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Speaker 7: that I enjoy, things that are personal about my life.

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Speaker 7: But you notice that my tattoos in a couple of

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Speaker 7: inches above my wrist, and I do that for a

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Speaker 7: very specific reason. I don't have any on my neck.

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Speaker 7: I don't have any on my wrist, and that's because

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Speaker 7: when I go into a courtroom or when I'm out

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Speaker 7: of a crime scene, I want to appear more professional.

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Speaker 7: So when you start looking at tattoos that are lower

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Speaker 7: down on the hands and wrists, you start thinking about

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Speaker 7: the people that.

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Speaker 5: Get these tattoos.

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Speaker 7: And they are people, like your tattoo artists said, provided

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Speaker 7: excellent information by the way they might have been in prison.

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Speaker 7: They might be parts of things they are most likely

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Speaker 7: not testifying as a professional in court. So that's more

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Speaker 7: of the like the psychiatric analysis or the behavioral analysis,

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Speaker 7: just figuring out what type of person might.

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Speaker 5: Have this tattoo.

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Speaker 7: Now you then have to create a link from identifying

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Speaker 7: the type of person that has the tattoo to the

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Speaker 7: specific person that has the tattoo. And this tattoo being

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Speaker 7: visible now can provide you a forensic link or a

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Speaker 7: positive idea on not only a person, but connecting them

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Speaker 7: to this crime scene. And so you have to think

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Speaker 7: about how are you going to figure out first of

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Speaker 7: all what this tattoo is, and then how are you

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Speaker 7: going to identify this person? And I think you're on

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Speaker 7: the right track with talking to tattoo artists like your guests,

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Speaker 7: because those are the people that are going to be

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Speaker 7: able to identify these specific, unique tattoos. I have personally

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Speaker 7: investigated cases where as a death investigator, I have identified

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Speaker 7: bodies with tattoos, and you have to get a little creative.

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Speaker 7: One case that I had, in particular, it was a

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Speaker 7: man that was found out in a river and he'd

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Speaker 7: been in the river for I don't remember if it

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Speaker 7: was days or weeks, but his body was severely decomposed.

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Speaker 7: He had a really unique tattoo on his body, and

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Speaker 7: so during the death investigation, we were not able to

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Speaker 7: identify fingerprints, We couldn't identify this person with dental records.

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Speaker 7: So what I did is I took pictures of this

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Speaker 7: unique tattoo and put it out in the news, and

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Speaker 7: literally within a couple of hours, you had family calling

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Speaker 7: and saying that they believe that that was their relative

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Speaker 7: that was found. So that's the first step is trying

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Speaker 7: to figure out who this person is, who they possibly are,

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Speaker 7: But then the second part is physically matching that up

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Speaker 7: with the person. And so there's a lot of different

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Speaker 7: resources available, especially now with AI and all these online

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Speaker 7: search engines. So you would want to enhance the tattoo

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Speaker 7: photograph as much as possible, put it into some kind

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Speaker 7: of photograph recognition software, and generate some leads. The other

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Speaker 7: option is, like we talked about, putting it out in

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Speaker 7: social media, your guests, your viewers, all of the people

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Speaker 7: that are interested in this case going to be a

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Speaker 7: tremendous resource because I might see it as maybe being

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Speaker 7: a snake or a skull or part of the name,

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Speaker 7: but your tattoo artist or one of your guests who

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Speaker 7: does a lot of research might see it as something

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Speaker 7: completely different. And so we have to start generating leads,

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Speaker 7: and it's going to come from the public and people

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Speaker 7: that are familiar with tattoos, like your tattoo artists. Most

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Speaker 7: tattoo artists have a specific style, like your guests talked about.

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Speaker 7: So I would get this tattoo photograph out to as

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Speaker 7: many local tattoo artists as possible and see what they

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Speaker 7: can tell you.

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Speaker 4: Every little is going to help.

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Speaker 7: And then social media TikTok, YouTube, Facebook, get those tattoo

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Speaker 7: pictures out there and see what people.

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Speaker 5: Can come up with.

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Speaker 7: Because once you have some leads and you can kind

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Speaker 7: of start nearing down suspects. Also, anytime somebody is contacted

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Speaker 7: by the police, whether it be an arrest or just

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Speaker 7: a contact, police are generally going to document tattoo information,

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Speaker 7: and it's going to be very general when it's documented

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Speaker 7: in police records. But you can search that I've identified

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Speaker 7: victims of crimes and deceased people with just basic tattoo information.

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Speaker 7: Now I've done so very quickly out of crime scenes.

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Speaker 7: So if it's visible on the hand, like to say,

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Speaker 7: for example, the police made with this person in the past.

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Speaker 7: If it's visible on the hand, that should be documented

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Speaker 7: somewhere in police records.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely based on the gang database information not only with

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Speaker 1: the FEDS and of course tag tattoo and graffiti subspecialty.

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Speaker 1: It's a very elite crew within the FBI at Quantico

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Speaker 1: that analyzes not only graffiti, but more often tattoos, and

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Speaker 1: that is put in a data bank. Even Arizona, the

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Speaker 1: state has a gang and tattoo data bank right now.

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Speaker 1: The FBI doing much of what Gentry is describing for

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Speaker 1: us tonight.

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Speaker 6: Hi, there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just

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Speaker 6: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week

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Speaker 6: of this nightmare. I just want to say First of all,

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Speaker 6: thank you so much for all of the prayers and

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Speaker 6: the love that we have felt, my sister and brother

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Speaker 6: and I, and that our mom has felt.

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Speaker 1: Because we believe that.

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Speaker 6: Somehow, in some ways, she is feeling these prayers and

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Speaker 6: that God is lifting her even in this moment and

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Speaker 6: in this darkest place, we believe our mom.

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Speaker 1: Is still out there.

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Speaker 4: We need your help.

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Speaker 6: Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to

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Speaker 6: bring her home, to find her. She was taken and

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Speaker 6: we don't know where, and we need your help. So

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Speaker 6: I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for

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Speaker 6: your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if

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Speaker 6: you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything,

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Speaker 6: if there's anything at all that seems strange to you

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Speaker 6: that you report to law enforcement. We are an hour

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Speaker 6: of desperation.

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Speaker 1: And we need your help. Also, in addition to a

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Speaker 1: team of experts analyzing the tattoo, the behavioral body language

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Speaker 1: of the porch guy, and more reims, a video is

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Speaker 1: being analyzed and categorized. Now we see Pima County sheriffs

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Speaker 1: begging the public for help. Take a look at what

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Speaker 1: they have posted. It says it is an urgent request

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Speaker 1: for all neighbors and people in the area, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: just neighbors. We saw what happen when the radius was

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Speaker 1: limited to just two miles. A glove popped up beyond

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Speaker 1: two miles and video has popped up that could be significant.

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Speaker 1: Pema County Shares Department Evidence Submission Portal. Dave Matt Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative Reporter. What is it?

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Speaker 2: A new website created specifically for the public to send

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Speaker 2: in their video, the security video from Nest cameras, ring cameras,

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Speaker 2: any video, any pictures they have. It's been mentioned that

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Speaker 2: in the neighborhood where this took place, we have some

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Speaker 2: senior citizens that might not be as adept with electronics

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Speaker 2: and transferring video. This makes it very very simple. They

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Speaker 2: click one button and can upload their video so the

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Speaker 2: law enforcement investigators can actually see video for the first time.

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Speaker 2: In some cases that might lead to a solution.

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Speaker 1: Straight out to Scott Iiker, joining US digital forensics expert,

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Speaker 1: founding member of the FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team on

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Speaker 1: the Homicide Squad at Norfolk, Virginia for over a decade.

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Speaker 1: Now with precision cellular analysis, you're seeing this video supply

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Speaker 1: to US by our friends at Fox, Scott Iiker, what

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Speaker 1: do you make of the plea and we have seen?

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Speaker 1: At first Nano stated that the video we were just

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Speaker 1: showing Scott of the cars racing by around the time

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Speaker 1: that Nancy goes missing, that that was unrelated and didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Now it turns out to be one of the single

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Speaker 1: most important pieces of evidence, next to the porch Guy video.

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Speaker 1: Now an urgent request for video submissions. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of a Scott Iiker.

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Speaker 8: As the investigation continues and kind of morphs one way

436
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 8: or the other, you start wandering wanting to get video

437
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 8: from several different aspects. Now we have the cars going

438
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 8: by the cactus there and made it in the night

439
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 8: around the time she went missing. Now they're going to

440
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 8: expand out further, saying, hey, we want more video in

441
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 8: this area. The more the better, right, I mean, if

442
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 8: it's not related, we'll figure that out later, but please

443
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 8: get us the video now so it doesn't get lost

444
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 8: before it's overridden, so we can have that data and

445
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 8: use it later on when we need it.

446
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: Also joining us in addition to Scott Iiker, former fed

447
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: with the FBI is Brian Fitzgibbons, Fitzgibbons is director of

448
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: Operations at USPA Nationwide Security that leads a team of

449
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:54,719
Speaker 1: investigators around the world, including extractions from Mexico in finding

450
00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: missing people. Former marine Iraqi more Vet. I want to

451
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: talk to you about video submissions on how they have

452
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: cracked cases in the past, Fitzgibbons. First of all, just

453
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: off the top of my head is Brian Coburger. After

454
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: four students were killed, a clerk at a local gas

455
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: station convenience store took it upon herself to wade through

456
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: hours of video. She sees a white Launchra speed by

457
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: the intersection, which was near the king wrote address one

458
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: of the only ways to get to it, I might add,

459
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: she gets it. She tells law enforcement and they first

460
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: become aware of a white Elantra. They put out the

461
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: word white Elantra to all local law enforcement, including Washington

462
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: State University pullman. The campus security go through their records,

463
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: who's registered here with a white Elantra, and the name

464
00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger pops up for the first time. Then this

465
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: neighborhood surveillance video catches the white Elantra at least seven

466
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: times circling the area. BAM busted. Then of course, there

467
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: is the case of the so called glam yoga instructor

468
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: Caitlin Armstrong. There is her suv circling the murder scene

469
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: before she goes in and murders her love rival, a

470
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: world champion dirt bike racer, a woman who Armstrong suspected

471
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: of stealing her boyfriend. Completely untrue, but dead body she's

472
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: caught on surveillance video. Then, of course we have to

473
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: mention Molly Tibbetts. A beautiful young co ed studied all day,

474
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: goes out for a jog when she is approached by

475
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: a dark colored suv that keeps following her. When she

476
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: threatens to call nine to one one, the purp kills

477
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: her and throws her body in a cornfield. He's identified

478
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: through distinct markings on the side of his vehicle. What

479
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: do you make, Fitzgibbons. The PMA County Sheriffs now urgent

480
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: request for residents, neighbors and more to submit their video.

481
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

482
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 9: First, I'll say that that website, the portal they have

483
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 9: is perfect. It's very simple and easy for anybody to

484
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 9: upload their video. And Scott Aiker hit the nail on

485
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 9: the head. Time is of the essence right now, anybody

486
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 9: in that greater Tucson area that has any video on

487
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 9: or around the date that Nancy disappeared, It's important that

488
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 9: they get to this site and upload it and let

489
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 9: the experts, let the analysts go through it and figure

490
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 9: out if it's if it's valuable or not. But anything

491
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 9: on her about that time of her disappearance could potentially

492
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 9: have value and could potentially help break the case.

493
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us renowned psychoanalyst out of the

494
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: California jurisdiction. You can see her on peacock. She is

495
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: the author of deal Breakers, and you can find her

496
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall. The

497
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: FBI and local law enforcement has kept close to the

498
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 1: vest the ransom notes. I'm not sure why, but it

499
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: seems to me that a lot could be gleaned from

500
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: the ransom notes. And let me just throw out the

501
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: example of te Kazinski, the unibomber. His manifesto, remember it

502
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: was finally published in the New York Times. Once it

503
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: was published, and he terrorized our country for decades. Murder

504
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: meant nothing to him. His brother recognized certain vernacular phrases

505
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: phraseology in the manifesto. He said, that's got to be

506
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: my brother, for Pete's sake. Then there's BTK buying torture

507
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: kill Dennis Raider, he taunted the Oh my goodness, there

508
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 1: he is dressed up in the victim's clothing. Freak. He

509
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: taunted law enforcement and media with these typewritten notes. Idiot.

510
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: Of course, the typewriter can be tracked back to a

511
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: certain typewriter, even not just with the keys with an

512
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: older model, but with a ball type such as found

513
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: on the IBM Selectra. You can get it from the

514
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: ribbon in a Selectra. So the use of a typewriter

515
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: in our case, the use of email, the content of

516
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: those ransom letters could tell me a lot. This video

517
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: from our friends at IBM. And of course there's John

518
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: ben a Ramsey, for Pete's sake, who says hints. Who

519
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: do you know except me occasionally that uses the word hints. Hints.

520
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: That's what the ransom letter said. So why are they

521
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: keep think close to the best of What can we

522
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: learn from the ransom letter? Doctor Bethany, You.

523
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 10: Know, Nancy, those ransom notes are a treasure trove of information.

524
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 10: For instance, the BTK killer was a very rigid, regimented guy.

525
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 10: Remember he was a local dogcatcher. He would measure everybody's

526
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 10: grass on their lawns to make sure it didn't grow

527
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 10: too much, and that the way he wrote. The typewritten

528
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 10: ransom note reflects those characteristics because it's very rigid, very

529
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 10: small type. But moving on to Nancy Guthrie, it can

530
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 10: tell us what the intent or the motivation of the

531
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 10: kidnap is. For instance, if the motivation is simply money,

532
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 10: then the ransom note is going to be fairly short,

533
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 10: with very detailed information about how to submit to send

534
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 10: the money. However, if it's more like a kidnapp because

535
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 10: somebody is stalking Nancy because they're obsessed with her, they're

536
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 10: obsessed with Savannah or maybe one of the other siblings,

537
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 10: then there's going to be more of a manifesto type quality.

538
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 10: These people stalkers love to write about it, they love

539
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 10: to talk about it, So in this case we would

540
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,720
Speaker 10: see somebody putting a lot of information into that ransom

541
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 10: note Nancy. There are also what I call affectations. These

542
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 10: are verbal flourishes that people use to make what they're

543
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 10: talking about appear way more important than it really is.

544
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 10: And I tend to think of criminals as being rather narcissistic, shallow,

545
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 10: empty people who have to prop themselves up, so they

546
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 10: would be more likely to use an affectation like maybe

547
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 10: the misuse of a big word that makes them feel

548
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 10: like they're very smart, and they misuse that word all

549
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 10: the time. So and the public is going to be fascinated.

550
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 10: One other quick thing, Nancy, It's important to know what

551
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 10: the writer of the note saw in Nancy Guthrie's room

552
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 10: that could be verified, because because is it something that

553
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 10: any kidnapper would see, like a kidnapp for ransom, or

554
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 10: is it something that a stalker would see, like maybe

555
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 10: a family photograph or maybe, I hate to say it,

556
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 10: a pair of underwear, a pair of stalking something highly

557
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 10: personal that the kidnapper would want to have control over

558
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 10: in order to gain proximity to the victim.

559
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: Bethany point while taken the video we were just showing

560
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: is from our friends to the Today Show, to braf

561
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: Its Gibbons, what do you make of law enforcement holding

562
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: on to the ransom nuts and remember there were threats

563
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: to Nancy Guthrie in there. Now. One theory is that

564
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: the description of the inside of her home was given

565
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: because they can no longer offer proof of life. They

566
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: could not send a photo or a video. I'm Nancy

567
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: Guthrie to show proof of life. That's one train of thought.

568
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: But there were threats against Nancy and details regarding the

569
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: inside of her home, So why not release the ransom notes?

570
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: Fitz Gibbons, You've got a theory.

571
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 9: Yeah, So, first of all, the FBI doesn't do things

572
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 9: because they have nothing to lose. They do things when

573
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 9: they have something to gain. And in this case, I

574
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 9: believe we do know quite a bit about the ransom

575
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 9: notes that were sent to the media outlets, that they

576
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 9: were delivered via email. They were not that long, the

577
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 9: writing wasn't that long. And similar to Ted Kaczinski, his

578
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 9: manifesto released by the FBI in nineteen ninety five had

579
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 9: over thirty five thousand words. So the FBI was very

580
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 9: confident in that case that someone might be able to

581
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 9: identify his ideology, his writing style, things that he was

582
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 9: saying in that long detailed manifesto. In John Bennet Ramsey's case,

583
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 9: this was a handwritten letter, Okay, that someone may be

584
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 9: able to identify the handwriting, the way that words join together.

585
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 9: So I think in this case it's it's that the

586
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 9: FBI is determined that they don't have anything to gain.

587
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 9: There may be a chance that copycat demands are sent

588
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 9: out if that's released, and then it distracts from the

589
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 9: momentum of the case.

590
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: Joining us now, Jeffrey Gentry forensic certified analyst with quite

591
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: the expertise with law enforcement and tattoos obviously, But jeff

592
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: what do you make of them refusing to release is

593
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: ransom note or any of them providing they are in

594
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: fact connected.

595
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 7: A lot of times when there is a police investigation

596
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 7: and there is something specific that the police do not

597
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 7: want to release, it's usually because it's unique and it

598
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 7: can be a unique identifier of this suspect. So say,

599
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 7: for example, the suspect mentioned something that nobody else would

600
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 7: know or nobody.

601
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 4: Else would say.

602
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 7: You don't want to just release that information to the

603
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 7: public because then everybody's going to know it. So when

604
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 7: they start questioning this suspect, when they catch them, they

605
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,760
Speaker 7: want to be able to ask them about this specific

606
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 7: information that maybe no one else would say or nobody

607
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 7: else would be able to identify. That way they can

608
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 7: know that they have the right person. So that there's

609
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 7: usually a reason that you don't release this information to

610
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 7: the public, and that's usually why you want to have

611
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 7: something in your pocket to be able to ask these

612
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 7: people that is going to trigger reaction and be able

613
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 7: to be used as a unique identifier when they apprehend

614
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 7: this suspect. That's my theory on why they're not releasing

615
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 7: this information to the public because they have something specific

616
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 7: that they're going to be able to use to identify

617
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 7: this suspect when they catch them.

618
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 1: An elite squad at Quantu, the FBI trying to create

619
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: a shoe cast. This as we learn the FBI has

620
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: returned to a particular restaurant to reinterrogate restaurant employees. And

621
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: what about the possibility of retinal scanning of the porch

622
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: guy and this as apb All points bulletin on a

623
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: mail trying to have a full sleeve removed, a full

624
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: sleeve tattoo removed. Good evening. I mean, see, Grace, this

625
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: is crime Stories. I want to thank you for being

626
00:43:41,080 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: with us. Maybe the stalker did glean a lot, but

627
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: what evidence did the purp I'm not convinced he's a

628
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: stalker of Nancy Guthrie. I think that he is a

629
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: con trying to make a quick dollar or a million.

630
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: What clues did he unwittingly leave behind. We have analyzed

631
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: him from the top of his head to the soles

632
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: off his shoes. Enter Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Joseph

633
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My Feet

634
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: on Amazon, and star of a hit podcast series Bodybags.

635
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: With Joseph Scott Morgan, I was concerned about any possibility

636
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 1: of a shoe print because the walkway to Nancy Guthrie's home,

637
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: if we could see that, I believe is gravel. But

638
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: let's start with A and end at Z. What is

639
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: a shoe cast and what is electromagnetic lift?

640
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 11: Okay, there's any number of ways to raise a shoe print,

641
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 11: if you will. Traditionally what we think of and we

642
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 11: still do this, Nancy. If you think about a foot

643
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 11: going into a soft malleable surface like mud, soft dirt,

644
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 11: even sand, you leave behind an impression, okay, and we

645
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 11: can cast that. We can put dental stone in there,

646
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 11: let it dry, pull it out, and you have this

647
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 11: image of the shoe print. Here we have an example,

648
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 11: for instance, of an electrostatic lift. This is completely different.

649
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 11: This is where we put down a charged sheet of

650
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 11: my laar and it actually goes over an area where

651
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 11: there is a suspected print that's generally left in soil

652
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 11: or dust. That's not really you're not able to see

653
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 11: it with the unaided eye very well. But what it

654
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 11: does is that there is a magnetic charge and that

655
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 11: lifts that print off of that surface and you can

656
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 11: pull it up and you can actually examine it. Here

657
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 11: we have an example of an electro static lift being

658
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 11: conducted just yesterday at Jacksonville State And for my money,

659
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 11: in this particular case, Nancy, I'm leaning more into the

660
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 11: electric electrostatic lift here because you know, you don't have

661
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 11: a lot of soft mud around there or soft dirt

662
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 11: that you're going through. But even if you look at

663
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 11: that porch, Nancy, look at that porch, those are tiles

664
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 11: out there. Now, there would be a myriad of prints

665
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 11: out there. But what if they went in there and

666
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 11: actually did electrostatic lifts there. And also if they can

667
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 11: determine where the point of entry is in this house,

668
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 11: go to the interior of the house and do those

669
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 11: lifts there. If there's an area around her bed where

670
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 11: you've got kind of a smooth, non porous or less

671
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 11: than poor surface like a ceramic tile there, which a

672
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,920
Speaker 11: lot of houses in the Southwest. Have you do that

673
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 11: around her bed? You see if there's any kind of weird,

674
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 11: weird prints that are there, like a man sneaker in

675
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 11: print that's left, and that is possible, you can do that.

676
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 11: I just hope it's not too late. I hope that

677
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 11: they protected that scene initially, but I got to tell you,

678
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,280
Speaker 11: hope's deming as far as I'm concerned.

679
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan, don't you remember at the get go

680
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: where anybody and their little sister could walk up to

681
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 1: the front porch and take photos because Nanos did not

682
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: secure the scene, not once, but twice did not secure

683
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: the scene. Gules were going up and taking photos of

684
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's blood on the front porch. This is from

685
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 1: our forensic kold. And as a matter of fact, someone

686
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: tried to deliver a pizza to the crime scene. That's

687
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: how unprotected it was. How is that going to affect

688
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: any hope of a shoe cast tremendously?

689
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 11: As you know as an attorney, Nancy, Once you take

690
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 11: that tape down, it is open season. At that point,

691
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 11: any attorney worth their salt can argue, hey, look, anything

692
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 11: can be planted in there. You want to know, real

693
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 11: big evidence of this and the carelessness that was taken

694
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 11: with the scene. I'll always go back to this is

695
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 11: when you see that blood deposition on the on the

696
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 11: surface of that portico area there, Nancy. The one thing

697
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 11: you always see and you can see the purpse standing

698
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 11: on it like there, Look at that, Look at that

699
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 11: standing on that mat, Nancy. We saw images of that

700
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 11: mat adjacent to the blood. They did not collect that

701
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 11: mat the first time out. You know, I sit there

702
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 11: and I think of it. Does your mind work? You know?

703
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 11: That's that's that's crimsone one oh one. Why was not

704
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 11: the mat collected at that point in time? Because you

705
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 11: have any number of things that can be transferred onto

706
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 11: that surface. I hope somebody went back and collected it.

707
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 11: But once you've taken the guard, the guardrails down. At

708
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 11: that point in time, it's open. Anybody can walk up

709
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 11: and take a photo. Anybody. It can be argued in

710
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 11: court that you can plant stuff at that point in time.

711
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 11: It is paramount that you protect that scene. And there's

712
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 11: just by virtue of the fact that you did not

713
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 11: value that mat anymore uh than they obviously didn't. Then

714
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 11: you're at risk here from losing valuable evidence. And anybody

715
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 11: can have access to it. Any lawyer worth their salt

716
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 11: can say, yeah, stuff was planned, they secured it, they

717
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 11: took the tape down. Lord only knows who got in there.

718
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: What is an electrostatic lift?

719
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 11: Okay, So what you're doing with this sheet of my

720
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 11: law is that you're actually placing a charge on that sheet. Okay.

721
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 11: And as you place that charge on there, what happens

722
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 11: is it attracts, It attracts underlying dust particles, lifts it

723
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 11: onto that sheet, and boom, it's permanently there.

724
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 12: Okay.

725
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 11: So you for and this is the beauty of it,

726
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 11: for a moment, for a moment, you have frozen in

727
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 11: time that image of that shoe impression that's there. Now

728
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 11: here's the trick. Can you take that image that you've

729
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 11: frozen on that sheet, okay, and take it back and

730
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 11: compare it? Well? Can you profile that footprint? Can someone

731
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 11: that is a footprint expert say, okay, we're looking for

732
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 11: somebody that pronates superinnates. Can we categorize the shoe print?

733
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 11: Can we say, okay, this manufacturer created this sole. Okay,

734
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 11: and you can say whatever manufacturer you know, insert company there,

735
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 11: all right, and if you can begin and again, as

736
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 11: you know, Nancy, with investigations, it's a big investigative funnel.

737
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 11: You want to try to narrow, narrow, narrow, and narrow

738
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 11: at all times. We want to try to exclude as

739
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 11: much stuff as we more stuff. We want to try

740
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 11: to exclude as much as we possibly can to narrow

741
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 11: our field. Can they take images, for instance, of those

742
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 11: shoes that we see right here captured at the scene

743
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 11: in the steel shots. Can they profile those shoes and say, okay,

744
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 11: this is the manufacture of those shoes. Automatically you've narrowed

745
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 11: your field. And can you say, if you do the

746
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 11: electrostatic lift, can you say, is it a possibility, is

747
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,439
Speaker 11: it a possibility that that particular brand is shoe could

748
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 11: leave this kind of impression. Well, now you have really,

749
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 11: you know, kind of on tune your target area at

750
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 11: this point in time. The trick now is to find

751
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 11: out who belongs to those shoes, who was wearing those

752
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 11: shoes at that point.

753
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: I know it works in a lab, but given the

754
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 1: fact that the general public could go right up onto

755
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: her porch and how many people from the Sheriff's office

756
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: were in and out of the home on the interior.

757
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: I don't know that we can get this type of evidence.

758
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: There's still a chance. Straight out to Dave Mac joining

759
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: US Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell me

760
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: about re emerging video of the interior of Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,

761
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 1: which I'd like to point out has a window right

762
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: there on ground level. You can look right into and

763
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: see her bedroom, the layout, everything, how close for her

764
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: bed is to the door, the window, the works. What

765
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: is this, Dave Mac.

766
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 2: What you're seeing is when the Today Show went they

767
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 2: were trying to show the closeness of Savannah Guthrie with

768
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: her mom, Nancy, and showing this side of Nancy Guthrie,

769
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 2: the mom showing how she taught Savannah to make a

770
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 2: bed and that's why you see her doing the corners there.

771
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,799
Speaker 2: But what this was done in an effort to, you know,

772
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: make it more personable and connecting with their audience. But

773
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: what it's showing is that is her bedroom, Nancy Guthrie's bedroom,

774
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: and she's been in this home since the nineties. She's

775
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: been in the same bedroom, same layout ever since. So

776
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: as you pointed out, the window is right there. We

777
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:42,360
Speaker 2: are looking at Savannah Guthrie's mom, Nancy Guthrie in the

778
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 2: room with the bed might been pulled out of the

779
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: night she was kidnapped, and.

780
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: We see what she keeps on her bedside table and

781
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: more hate. Dave Matc Megan Kelly found this and brought

782
00:52:56,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: it to everyone's attention. When was that taken? When was

783
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,720
Speaker 1: that shoot? From our friends at Today with missus Guthrie, it.

784
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: Was in twenty thirteen.

785
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: Because I started to say, she's getting around really well

786
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: and does not seem to have any mobility issue. But

787
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, many years have passed since then. Let's take

788
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: a look at that video again, because whoever searched Savannah

789
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,919
Speaker 1: Guthrie's salary in Nancy Guthrie's home address may very well

790
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: have pulled up video just like this. What clues can

791
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: we glean from this video? A lot? A lot from

792
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: our friends at Today to Joseph's got Morgan professor forensics,

793
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:46,800
Speaker 1: what do you learn from this.

794
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 11: Just looking well, you look at the nature of the

795
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 11: flooring and it's really hard to kind of kind of

796
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 11: pick up and try to understand it has it changed

797
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 11: over that period of time. Is it a smooth kind

798
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 11: of sem me porous floor that we could go in

799
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 11: and collect anything relative to shoe prints? You know, one

800
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 11: of the things that you begin to think about is

801
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 11: that folks were saying that she was taken from her bedroom.

802
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 11: First off, I don't understand how they source that information particularly, but.

803
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: It certainly so because Savannah said it in one of

804
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 1: her plates, she said, my mom was taken out of

805
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: her bed.

806
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 11: Well, you have to take that. You have to take

807
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 11: that and utilize that as and I'm sure that they

808
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 11: already have because if she's saying that, that that's rooted

809
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 11: somewhere factually, so you're going to look at any kind

810
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 11: of physical evidence that might be associated with an outside

811
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 11: party that's there. And it could be anything from dusty

812
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 11: prints that are left behind by shoes, it could be

813
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 11: any kind of trace evidence, any kind of fiber evidence

814
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 11: where they're putting hands on somebody to move them around.

815
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: We also see that bedspread if she still has the

816
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: same one, and obviously an MBAT would have to be

817
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 1: used on that. It is a porous material to get

818
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,439
Speaker 1: potential DNA straight out to Bria. It's Gibbons joining us.

819
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,680
Speaker 1: He is Director Operations USP, a nationwide security leading a

820
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 1: team of investigators that specialize in missing people and go

821
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: around the world finding them rescuing them. Particularly, he has

822
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 1: an expertise and extractions from Mexico. He is a former

823
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: Marine and Iraqi war vet. Brif it's Gibbons, I can

824
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,800
Speaker 1: learn a lot from that video, and so could anybody,

825
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: including the PURP.

826
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 9: Yeah, certainly, and we see that the PURP would have

827
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,320
Speaker 9: access to this readily online. You know, is he looking

828
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,240
Speaker 9: to see? Are their camera locations inside of the house,

829
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 9: are their avenues of entry or egress in that room?

830
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,399
Speaker 9: And all of this should be caveat with the fact

831
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 9: that there was an incredible amount of tension drawn to

832
00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 9: Missus Guthrie with Savannah's visit and the visit to that

833
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 9: restaurant that the FBI is now conducting interviews again with

834
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 9: restaurant staff.

835
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: At some point he reaches up to dismantle or up

836
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: the door camp.

837
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: I see black and gray work. I can see some

838
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 3: subtle shading on the edges.

839
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: And when he does that much is revealed. Joining us

840
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: now a special guest, Jeff Garnett, co founder Inkless Tattoo

841
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: removal Centers English Tattoo Removal dot Com. Jeff, I know

842
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: that you, like me, have studied carefully the porch guy's

843
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: wrist tattoo. Got a question for you, Jeff, Have you

844
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:55,320
Speaker 1: ever been asked by a perpetrator to remove a tattoo?

845
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 4: Yes, actually we have.

846
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 12: We didn't know at the time that it was a perpetrator,

847
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 12: but in twenty twenty one, there was a shooting death

848
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 12: outside of a famous hotel in Manhatan and it was all.

849
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 4: Caught on surveillance camera.

850
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 12: The perpetrator his picture was shown on the news and

851
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 12: everyone kept commenting on the fact that he had these

852
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:27,919
Speaker 12: full tattoo sleeves. Later the following week, a detective came

853
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 12: in and questioned us because they had arrested him and

854
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 12: they found our aftercare instructions in his car. So what

855
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 12: had happened is the shooting had happened, I think on

856
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 12: a Thursday. It was all over the news the following morning,

857
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 12: and that Friday he came into one of our locations

858
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 12: trying to get his sleeves removed. So we didn't know

859
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 12: at the time, but they were able to show that

860
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 12: that was his attempt to cover up the identifying marks.

861
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: So the video caught him with two full sleeves. Yes, wow,

862
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: okay in his car they found your after care instructions. Okay.

863
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 1: How long would it take to remove a full sleeve?

864
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: Jeff Garnett.

865
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 4: It takes a long time.

866
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 12: It's not an instant thing where you come in and

867
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 12: laser it and it's gone instantly.

868
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 4: You know.

869
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 12: We would all love for the technology to get there,

870
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 12: but we're not quite there at this point.

871
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 4: Probably at least a year.

872
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 12: There are a lot of variables, different ink colors, different

873
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 12: ink saturation levels, locations on the body, how healthy someone's

874
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 12: immune system is.

875
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 4: These are all factors that can impact it.

876
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 12: But basically the laser is breaking the ink into microscopic

877
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 12: particles that are much easier for your immune system to remove.

878
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 12: So we're pretty much just speeding up the natural fading process.

879
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,000
Speaker 12: When I started doing this fifteen years ago, it would

880
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 12: have easily taken three years. The newer Pico technology it's

881
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 12: cut that in half, but it's still a year to

882
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 12: a year.

883
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 4: And a half.

884
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: Bolo be on the lookout for a mail trying to

885
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 1: have two full sleeves or at least one full sleeve

886
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: out of the Catalina Hills area removed back to Jeff

887
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,440
Speaker 1: Garnett joining US co founder Inklass Tattoo removal Centers. So

888
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 1: it takes a long time to finally get a full

889
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: sleeve removed. Could you rush it? If someone said I've

890
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: got to have this thing off in forty eight hours,

891
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: could you do it? Is it physically possible?

892
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 4: Not with laser technology.

893
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 12: The only way to do it instantly would be a

894
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 12: surgical procedure called decision where they would have.

895
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 4: To cut it out.

896
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,439
Speaker 12: And if that was a small tattoo, they'd be able

897
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 12: to cut it out and it would be replaced with

898
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 12: a scar, and that would be done by a pleasant surgeon.

899
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 12: If you're talking about a full sleeve, it would get

900
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 12: into skin grafts. It just wouldn't be possible. Laser technology

901
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 12: can remove that, but it's going to take a long time.

902
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 12: Now we're assuming the has a sleeve, because you're seeing

903
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 12: that risk portion and it looks as if it's part

904
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 12: of a much larger tattoo. Could that small portion be

905
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 12: cut out surgically, Yes, it could, but there would definitely

906
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 12: be a large scar in the place.

907
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: Once you have the tattoo completely removed, are there any

908
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: traces left behind. You have an example on your neck?

909
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 12: Correct, Yes, I used to have a tattoo right here,

910
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:40,960
Speaker 12: and there's nothing.

911
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 4: There's no scar tissue, there's no shadow or skin discoloration.

912
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 4: You know, it depends.

913
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 12: There's certain ink colors are easier to remove than others.

914
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 12: But it looks to me like this is a black

915
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 12: tattoo on black ink tattoo, and black ink responds really

916
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 12: well so the laser. Black absorbs the full spectrum of

917
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 12: light from the laser, so usually black and can be

918
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 12: removed complete.

919
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: It's a black and gray, which of course is just

920
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 1: variations on black, So you're absolutely correct. I'm just curious

921
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: what was the tattoo you had removed?

922
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 5: It was a bat.

923
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 4: It was a silly bat hanging upside down.

924
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,960
Speaker 1: Behind me, a bat, as in the bat that flies

925
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 1: out of a cave and jumps in your hair and

926
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: tries to bite you. Correct, Okay, why did you have

927
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 1: a bat on your neck?

928
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 12: I tend to a lot of my tattoos are kind

929
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 12: of time stamps of different parts of my life. And

930
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 12: I had moved temporarily to Austin, Texas, and there's a

931
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 12: bridge in Austin that has about a million bats that

932
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 12: live underneath it and that dust they all come flying out.

933
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 12: So that was kind of my Austin, Texas tattoo.

934
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not a shrink. I can't analyze that. I'll

935
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 1: just take it for what it is, for the promitive value.

936
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: But why do other people have tattoos removed?

937
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 12: Typically, there's a wide range of purposes. Sometimes people get

938
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,439
Speaker 12: a tattoo and don't like the way it came out,

939
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 12: so they almost immediately want to get rid of it.

940
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 12: There's the stereotypical boyfriend and girlfriend get each other's names

941
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 12: and then break up.

942
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 4: The most common one is people just outgrow it.

943
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 12: You know, you get something in your teens, your twenties,

944
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 12: and then in your thirties and forties, your taste change and.

945
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 4: You're a different person.

946
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 12: But there also are some really more psychological reasons as well.

947
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 12: You have really said things like victims of human trafficking

948
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 12: that have property of tattoos, and that's some of the

949
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 12: things that we do pro bono for people. You have

950
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 12: radiation tattoos for people cancer survivors from when they had

951
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 12: their procedures.

952
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,440
Speaker 4: So there really is a wide range.

953
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 12: But the majority of the clients we see got something

954
01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,160
Speaker 12: when they were younger, they've outgrown it and their tasted.

955
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: Person crime stories with Nancy Grace. Jeff Garnett is joining us.

956
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 1: He is the co founder of Inkless Tattoo Removal Centers

957
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 1: with multiple branches. Be on the lookout please Jeff Garnett

958
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: full sleeve removal. That said, this leads me to another process,

959
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 1: that process being a I used to create a ransom note.

960
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,640
Speaker 1: But first before I get into that, with Christian Hammond

961
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: from Northwestern University, Dave mac, what can you tell me

962
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: about the last forty eight hours where the FBI descends

963
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:54,280
Speaker 1: upon a Mexican restaurant to reinterrogate employees, a full two

964
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: days of reinterrogation.

965
01:03:56,880 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie and Savannah Guthrie out to dinner back in

966
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 2: November when the Today Show came to town and was

967
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 2: filming Savannah back in Tucson. They went to Elcharro, which

968
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 2: is their favorite Mexican restaurant. Well, the FBI has been

969
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 2: back in interviewing employees of the restaurant, specifically asking them

970
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: if they noticed anyone standing around, maybe trying to ingratiate

971
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:27,200
Speaker 2: themselves with the cast and crew, anybody that acted weird.

972
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 2: They were asking those types of questions of all of

973
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 2: the employees in the Elcharro, trying to determine if anyone

974
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 2: was there that shouldn't have been or was acting inappropriately

975
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 2: while they were there.

976
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 1: From our friends at today, you know, I'm very curious

977
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 1: about their line of questioning to these restaurant employees, if

978
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: they saw anyone there that day that was unusual, if

979
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 1: anyone hung around, you know, to Bryphus Gibbons joining US

980
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: Director of Operations USPA Nationwides Security, that must have been

981
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 1: a memorable day for a lot of people. To have

982
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: a big star like Savannah Guthrie roll in, very memorable.

983
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: So it's not just the employees. They're going to be

984
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: questioned about other people that were there that day to

985
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: watch the filming. I guarantee if it's Gibbons, they're going

986
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: to be asking does anybody have a son a black

987
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: sheep son? Does anybody have a bad seed brother in

988
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: law or son in law or cousin where the mom

989
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: comes home and says, hey, guess what happened today Savannah

990
01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: Guthrie was there with her mother? Or guess what's going

991
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow? And what I want to do with

992
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: that brafitz Gibbons is overlay it onto that Google trend

993
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: search where someone thought to question Savannah Guthrie's salary and

994
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 1: in the same search the home address for Nancy Guthrie

995
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: and then connect that person to some one we may

996
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 1: find out about through the restaurant employees.

997
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 9: Certainly a focus of those questions is going to be

998
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 9: who did you tell about this? Did you text anybody?

999
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 9: Did you call anybody? Am I able to look at

1000
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 9: that text to see who? How did they respond?

1001
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 5: Right?

1002
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 9: It may not be that they're focused solely on that

1003
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 9: restaurant employee, but who's on their periphery, who's in their

1004
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 9: circle that they told about this event and they told

1005
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 9: about miss Guthrie living in Tucson being connected to Savannah.

1006
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: So it's not just limited to the employees. It's who

1007
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 1: they know, who they're related to, who may have been

1008
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: in the restaurant at that time. The line of questioning.

1009
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about what that is, what it means,

1010
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: what we can glean from the FBI spinning not one

1011
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: but two full days at the restaurant. So we believe, well,

1012
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: there are two restaurants in play that we know of

1013
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,160
Speaker 1: right now. Of course, this is us on the outside

1014
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: looking in, Brian. There is the restaurant connected to that

1015
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 1: glove that was found about two miles from Nancy Guthrie's home.

1016
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 1: The glob was connected back to in a restaurant employee,

1017
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 1: and that employee was cleared. There's that restaurant, and there

1018
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:27,200
Speaker 1: is the restaurant at which Nancy Guthrie at Savannah Guthrie,

1019
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: let's see that video had the Arizona homecoming where Savannah

1020
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: went back home and she was with her family. They

1021
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,240
Speaker 1: went to their favorite restaurant. They spent time in missus

1022
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 1: Guthrie's home. Which restaurant are we talking about, Brian.

1023
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 9: We're talking about this restaurant that you see here. And

1024
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 9: you have to remember this isn't Hollywood, right, this is Tucson, Arizona.

1025
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 9: So you have a film crew, Savannah Guthrie, a nationally

1026
01:07:55,160 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 9: recognized TV show host, rolls into this restaurant. Be quite

1027
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 9: an event for that restaurant and.

1028
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 4: The people there.

1029
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 9: And I think it's important to mention it's unlikely that

1030
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 9: it was happenstance that an abductor happened to be in

1031
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 9: the restaurant that day, you know, and saw missus Guthrie.

1032
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:18,559
Speaker 9: The most likely scenario is that somebody who was there,

1033
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:23,960
Speaker 9: be it staff or a guest, actually communicated about Hey,

1034
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 9: I saw Savannah Guthrie with her mother at this restaurant.

1035
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 9: Another thing that law enforcement is undoubtedly doing is looking

1036
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 9: at the checks from that day. Who else was in

1037
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 9: the restaurant, who paid with a credit card? What information

1038
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 9: does the restaurant have about the other guests. And then

1039
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 9: they're going to go out that one additional layer and

1040
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:48,479
Speaker 9: start asking everybody who was there who they communicated with

1041
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:49,000
Speaker 9: about this.

1042
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: Another possibility, Bryan Fitzgibbons, is surveillance video, if it can

1043
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 1: be pulled down from the cloud, what was happening in

1044
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,920
Speaker 1: the part if there Let's just go with me on this.

1045
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 1: We know we have that video from a neighbor of

1046
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:11,440
Speaker 1: cars zipping by around the time that Nancy Guthrie's pacemaker

1047
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 1: stopped connecting to the bluetooth in her home, you know,

1048
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 1: two three o'clock in the morning. There are people heading

1049
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:22,439
Speaker 1: back and forth toward her home, toward that street. This

1050
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:23,679
Speaker 1: is from our friends at Fox News.

1051
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 13: By the way, we too have heard the reports about

1052
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 13: a ransom letter in the media. As a family, we

1053
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 13: are doing everything that we can. We are ready to talk.

1054
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 1: Joining me now, Christian Hammond, artificial intelligence expert. He is

1055
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:53,679
Speaker 1: a professor of computer science at Northwestern University. Again not shabby, Christian,

1056
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 1: director of the Center for Advancing Safety of Machine Intelligence.

1057
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 1: I should thank you for being with us. What I'm

1058
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 1: getting at is I'm narrowing down who I'm looking for.

1059
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: I'm looking for a guy, what do we say, jackie

1060
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 1: between five nine and six feet five, at least one sleeve,

1061
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: one full sleeve, likely two full sleeves. I'm looking for

1062
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: someone that has that Ozark backpack. I'm looking for that receipt.

1063
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:37,680
Speaker 1: I'm looking for someone from the Tucson area because they

1064
01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:42,559
Speaker 1: have a soft spot for two Tucson TV networks that

1065
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: maybe they grew up watching. I'm looking for someone that

1066
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:53,560
Speaker 1: has a knowledge of Nancy Guthrie and her home, maybe

1067
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 1: maybe connected in some tenuous way, not necessarily an employee

1068
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,439
Speaker 1: of that Mexican restaurant. I believe we're looking for someone

1069
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: that may have a criminal record. And now I'm looking

1070
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 1: for someone that may have conducted that Google search we

1071
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: talked about early on that looked for Nancy Guthrie's home

1072
01:11:14,920 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 1: address and Savannah Guthrie's salary. Okay, that's a lot of data.

1073
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: Christian Hammond, think about the ransom note. Could the purp

1074
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: if the ransom note is in fact connected, have used

1075
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:40,839
Speaker 1: AI artificial intelligence to disguise their identity, Well, certainly.

1076
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 14: I mean the power of the power of the.

1077
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:46,719
Speaker 5: Language models is that you can.

1078
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,160
Speaker 14: Have them say something that you want to say, but

1079
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 14: in a tone and in a cadence of words that

1080
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,639
Speaker 14: is not yours. And so you can certainly disguise yourself

1081
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 14: that way, and you'll leave a little bit of a

1082
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 14: trace doing so. But that trace is so minute and

1083
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,280
Speaker 14: is so washed out in terms of all the other

1084
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 14: activity that's going on that it's it wouldn't be it

1085
01:12:08,439 --> 01:12:08,840
Speaker 14: wouldn't be.

1086
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 5: Uh, you wouldn't be able to find it.

1087
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 1: And so yes, okay, Christian, we established earlier that year,

1088
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 1: you know, light years ahead of all of us and

1089
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,599
Speaker 1: your mortals when it comes to this. I heard you.

1090
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:27,960
Speaker 1: I know what all those words mean, but in the

1091
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 1: context of your sins, I don't know what you're saying.

1092
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: You're telling me that Google can look through trillions of

1093
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: data points and they can find Nancy Guthries doorcam, and

1094
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:49,759
Speaker 1: they can resurrect like Lazarus video footage we thought didn't

1095
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: even exist. Well, we listened to nanos. That was our

1096
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,439
Speaker 1: first mistake. But that said, and we can't put all

1097
01:12:55,479 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 1: of these facts together and come up with that artifice.

1098
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: So intelligence request.

1099
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, so finding finding the images is a targeted task.

1100
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,599
Speaker 14: That is, they know where they should be looking, they

1101
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 14: know the features that are really important there. Uh, and

1102
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 14: that really gives them a lot of constraints in terms

1103
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 14: of what they're looking for.

1104
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:22,880
Speaker 5: Uh.

1105
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:26,920
Speaker 14: But when you're looking for an arbitrary query against a

1106
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 14: language model where there are dozens of language models, some

1107
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,599
Speaker 14: of them are local, some of them anyone can use

1108
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,839
Speaker 14: of finding a tiny little.

1109
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 5: Piece of a request.

1110
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 14: Is an untenable I mean, there's too much to search.

1111
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 14: And in the midst of all this, there might be

1112
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 14: other people who are going, I wonder what it's like.

1113
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 5: I wonder if you could generate.

1114
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 14: A a a ransom note. And so they're generating them

1115
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 14: and we will find them as well. And so it's

1116
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,880
Speaker 14: we're really in a place where there's not an focus

1117
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,880
Speaker 14: uh to in terms of what we're looking for, uh,

1118
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 14: to find the right thing.

1119
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,480
Speaker 5: And I think it's uh. Actually, in the movie.

1120
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 14: In the movie about about touring and all of the

1121
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 14: work he done did in terms of decrypting, there was

1122
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 14: a moment where once he identified a target that they

1123
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 14: knew they could they were looking for a particular thing

1124
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 14: in a particular in a particular message that gave them

1125
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:27,840
Speaker 14: the ability to figure out what was going on. But

1126
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,879
Speaker 14: if you don't have a target, uh, it's incredibly difficult

1127
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:34,680
Speaker 14: to find the right thing at the right time that

1128
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:35,439
Speaker 14: gives you the right.

1129
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 5: Kind of information.

1130
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, you are the artificial intelligence expert. In

1131
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 1: a perfect world, what would I need to track down

1132
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,559
Speaker 1: that AI request to write the ransom note?

1133
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 14: Well, a perfect world would be that we would be

1134
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 14: able to take a look at all those all the

1135
01:14:57,439 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 14: logs of all the interactions trip.

1136
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 5: Uh.

1137
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 14: But that's a perfect world in terms of one thing,

1138
01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 14: and that's finding stuff. But it's not a perfect world

1139
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,880
Speaker 14: in terms of privacy, in terms of data leakage, in

1140
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,080
Speaker 14: terms of I'm feeling like I've been using a system

1141
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 14: and I'm not telling it my entire life, and that

1142
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 14: life will be shared with everyone. So there are I've

1143
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 14: always been privacy issues. So even with the finding the

1144
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:28,800
Speaker 14: you know, finding the images associated with this particular.

1145
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 5: Camera, there are privacy issues.

1146
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 14: That is that she didn't have a subscription and so

1147
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 14: they should not have been holding onto anything, but they

1148
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:38,839
Speaker 14: were getting to the all the camera, all the footage

1149
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 14: associated with the cameras in her neighborhood.

1150
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 5: That's a privacy issue.

1151
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:45,400
Speaker 14: That is that unless you've signed off for your camera

1152
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 14: to be used, you can't use it.

1153
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:50,800
Speaker 1: And so there's always this true Okay, I understand, So

1154
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 1: there really is no perfect world in finding that AI request. Okay,

1155
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. Many people have suggested there's

1156
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 1: a possibility of doing a retinal scam on the porch. Gud,

1157
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: there's some great shots of his eyes. What do you

1158
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:06,679
Speaker 1: make of that? Let's see the shots.

1159
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 14: Yeah, the the problem is is that they're they're good,

1160
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 14: but they're not magnificent.

1161
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 5: So retinal scans usually.

1162
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 14: Are done using infrared light to begin with, and they're

1163
01:16:21,280 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 14: they're marvelous. I mean, they're incredibly powerful in terms of

1164
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 14: being able to identify individuals.

1165
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 5: But you need that as the target.

1166
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,000
Speaker 14: That is, if I'm if I've got a new if

1167
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:33,760
Speaker 14: I've got a new image and I could get a

1168
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 14: retinal scan out of it, I've got to find I

1169
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:38,920
Speaker 14: have to have a thing to match it against, and

1170
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:40,360
Speaker 14: we we don't really have that.

1171
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:44,439
Speaker 1: The other thing is that even if there was enough data,

1172
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 1: Christian to get the retinals scan, and you're saying it's

1173
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,280
Speaker 1: just beyond enhancing it from those images, we have to

1174
01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:55,960
Speaker 1: have something to compare it too, Like fingerprints. You may

1175
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: have a great fingerprint, but you got to ask somebody

1176
01:16:58,680 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: to compare it too.

1177
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 14: So he could leave fingerprints and DNA and footprints and

1178
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,200
Speaker 14: all sorts of things. But if they're if there's not

1179
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 14: a target for us to match them against, it doesn't

1180
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 14: help us unless we have him in hand.

1181
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:15,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Christian Hammond, I want you to go back to

1182
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 1: your think take at Northwestern University and come up with

1183
01:17:18,600 --> 01:17:24,400
Speaker 1: some answers for me. Christian Hammond, Jeff Garnett, Ryan Fitzgibbons,

1184
01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:26,760
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, and Dave Mack thank you for being

1185
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:30,519
Speaker 1: with us. Everyone. If you know or think you know

1186
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: anything about the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll

1187
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:37,000
Speaker 1: free eight hundred two two five five three two four

1188
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 1: to remain anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven

1189
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:43,960
Speaker 1: four sixty three. There is a one point two plus

1190
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 1: million dollar reward for information leading to the whereabouts of

1191
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. Arrest conviction not required. We wait as just

1192
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 1: a sunfalls. Goodbye man,