WEBVTT - Episode 5 – The Ticking Clock 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:05.720 Okay, so better, much better outcome than you were anticipating today. 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:09.880 Definitely, it's way better, a lot better than what we 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:11.280 thought was going to happen, for sure. 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.640 In August, I got a call from Troy. After so 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.919 many years, he finally got a break in Sarah and 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.960 Jacob's case, the case against their mother. In all the 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:25.680 time I've spent with Troy in listening to him tell 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.720 his devastating story, this is the first time he's ever 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:30.680 sounded hopeful. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.240 The judge determined that there needs to be a hearing 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:37.400 so that he can determine competency itself, which is something 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:38.920 we've been pushing for the whole time. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.720 At this point, it's been almost eight very long years 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.160 since Troy's kids, Sarah and Jacob, were taken by their mother, 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.160 and the state has accused her of killing them. Now, 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.400 in August twenty twenty two, after years of psychiatric evaluations 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:59.360 concluding that Catherine is incompetent to stand trial, a judge 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:02.360 is final insisting on a hearing so he can form 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.280 his own assessment. This hearing would be the first time 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.040 since Catherine's twenty fourteen arrest that any judge would hear 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.600 sworn testimony related to Catherine's competency. Until now, judges have 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.480 only reviewed periodic reports about Catherine prepared by doctors at 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.880 Clifton T. Perkins, a psychiatric hospital that she has been 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.680 held in since her arrest. And this is a new judge, right. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:32.160 It's definitely a good thing. You know, we still have 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.240 a long way to go, and there's still a very 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.160 good chance, we understand, you know, there's a good chance 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:41.440 that come December the charges will get dropped. But we 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.880 have a chance to try to at least, you know, 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.200 fight for Sarah and Jacob and fight for what should 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:47.720 be happening. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.760 For years, Troy has been watching a clock the countdown 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.760 to the dismissal of Catherine's murder charges. Remember, in Maryland, 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.520 a person cannot be held on charges indefinitely if they 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:03.160 are deemed incompetent. The clock will run out in four 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:08.239 months December. First, okay, so talk to me about next steps, 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.320 what happens next? 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:14.040 So the next steps are we let me see, So 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.160 October it's tenatively set for October seventh. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.600 This newly presiding judge doesn't just want to question Catherine's 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.280 doctors at Clifton T. Perkins Psychiatric hospital about the conclusions 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:29.040 of their competency evaluation. He's also suggested that he may 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.079 want to question Catherine to see how much she might 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.320 reveal about her state of mind and her ability to 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.359 withstand the scrutiny of the criminal justice system. For Troy, 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.360 it feels like taking a small step forward after so 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:42.880 many years of disappointment. 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.680 I mean, I can't remember anytime that we walked out 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.640 of the courtroom going okay, well this is where we 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.160 should be, or I mean, we're really not where we 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.959 should be at this point. Anyway. We shouldn't be anywhere 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:57.000 near you know, the charge is possibly being dropped. We 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:01.040 should be If anything, we should be years five years 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.000 out from that still and this should have happened, you know, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:05.960 four or five years ago. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.440 Troy's story isn't just the story of one family. Every year, 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.560 millions of defendants with mental illness are jailed, and tens 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.880 of thousands of them will appear before a judge to 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.240 have their competency assessed, many of them with their own 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.160 trail of baggage in the form of desperate family members 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.400 or forgotten victims. But as Troy and his wife Stephanie 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.720 prepare for this hearing, As they nervously watch the clock, 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.839 They're consumed by the overarching sense that this is their 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:41.400 last chance, Troy's one shot at convincing a judge to 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.120 move forward with Catherine's prosecution, and that Catherine and her 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.200 attorney may well be able to maneuver their way out 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.600 of this very specific kind of accountability. The only thing 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:59.520 that Troy considers justice. I'm Sarah t Levin and this 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.960 is Unrestorable, an original podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.279 This might not come as a big surprise, but the 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.680 hearing did not happen that October. In fact, it didn't 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.240 happen until mid November. My co host Beth Carris and 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.880 I connected with Troy and his wife, Stephanie the night 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.080 before the hearing was scheduled to start. So we'd love 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:34.920 if you could bring us up to speed in terms 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:35.640 of what's going on. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.560 I'll defer to my attorney, Okay. 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.039 So there's been a lot of developments in the last 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:45.880 twenty four to thirty six hours. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.159 So oh wow, Okay, this is Troy's lawyer, Matt Alegi. 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.960 Like Troy, Matt is a bear of a man. He's 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.640 big and broad, with dark framed glasses and a salt 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:57.360 and pepper beard. 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.599 So I mean, well, there's a lot going Principally, Perkins 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.520 has not yet responded to the subpoena for records, which 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:11.120 is putting a bit of wrinkle in their plans to 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:16.000 have a full evidentiary hearing on Catherine's competency. The other 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.040 thing that happened that was big was the state requested 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.920 earlier this week that Troy be a witness and testify 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:26.880 significantly had the hearing, which we were really expecting. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.640 Matt is actually a real estate lawyer, but he and 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.040 Troy go way back, and he's become Troy and Stephanie's 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:35.000 biggest advocate. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.440 I am not a criminal defense lawyer, but because I 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.960 grew up here in Gaithsburg, in Germantown, you know, as 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.039 I'm doing all the sophisticated work, I'm a lawyer in 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.880 the community. And everybody I grew up with, you know, 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.080 if they got in trouble with the police, or if 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:54.480 their mom died, or if they got a hip back, 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:56.680 you know what have they just you know, they don't 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.000 understand what different kinds of lawyers are. There's coy and 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:02.920 I've just never turned that away and the firm has 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.400 been very gracious and letting me help these people, especially 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:07.440 when they have big problems. 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.359 Almost since the beginning, he's offered the services of his 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.160 large legal firm pro bono, providing Troy and Stephanie with 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.599 legal advice and representation. It would be tough for them. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.360 To afford, and it looks like the defense file of 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.760 protective order relating to evidence, probably her records, which we 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.680 haven't seen yet. We of course have concerned that this 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:35.760 is procedural nonsense with an intent to run out the 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:39.560 clock on the December first mandatory dismissal with the charges date. 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.279 The stakes are really really high, and so Matt is 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.920 helping Troy and Stephanie prepare, guiding them through legal strategy 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:52.960 and helping Troy prep his testimony while cautiously tempering their hopefulness. 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:57.960 Matt and Troy knew each other in high school and 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.839 they reconnected right after Sarah and went missing. 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.200 I mean, this has been eight years. I don't know 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.720 how many thousands of hours. Navigating the American justice system 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:14.560 without a guide or a translator is impossible. When you 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.720 hear a layperson ask questions about why did this happen? 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.480 Why did that happen. Why is this showing up on 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:26.760 the docket, just being the translator, just being there, being 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.840 able to explain things to have to navigate. Filing a 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.920 motion in a criminal case where you're the victim, just 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:41.600 so you know if your psychotic ex girlfriend escapes. Yeah, 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.880 like those kinds of things, Filing the victim notification motions, 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.480 doing all the things that are required so that the 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.400 hospital tells him when certain things happened that he's you know, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:08:00.000 we just we did a lot of that. You wish 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.120 there was more to do. When it's a criminal case 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.880 and the defendant isn't competent to stand trial, there's just 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:08.480 not a lot to do. But he did a lot. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.160 I'm the sherpa, know, I'm the lawyer, like I'm helping fine, 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.360 but this is all him. This is his drive, this 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.240 is his persistence, this is his what can we do 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:21.840 every day? 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.360 Romance seems like an inappropriate word to use in this 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:30.760 dark context, but there's such transparent affection between Matt and 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.000 Troy Stephanie too. Stephanie has described Matt to me as 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.000 their protector, but Matt is also yet another person sucked 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.400 into the vortex of this tragedy. Determined to do something 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.560 anything in what seems like an impossible situation. 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.480 It was really kind of cynical looking at this whole 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.720 eight year saga would say that Catherine Hoggle has been 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:00.840 a master manipulator his entire time right until now. She's 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.360 avoiding this final hearing, and she may prevail in getting 0:09:04.400 --> 0:09:07.160 her criminal charges dismissed and being civilly committed. 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.520 That is the state's position, and I think everybody on 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.920 this side of the screen agrees with it. And that's 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.679 why they want Troy to testify, which again we were 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.520 surprised about, and the extent to which they're going to 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:22.160 want him to testify and the things they're going to 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.679 want to talk him to talk about willasurprising, but they're 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.280 going to want to go back and tell the story 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:26.840 to the judgement. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.320 So not only would this hearing be the first time 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.480 a judge is said to actively engage with testimony instead 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:37.680 of just relying on doctor's competency evaluations, it is going 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.320 to be the first time that Troy will get his 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:43.439 chance to offer his testimony on the record. 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.520 The state's position is she's always been competent, and she's 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.719 always been lingering, and there is significant evidence through her 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.720 words and actions from when this started that Troy has 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.080 firsthand knowledge of that the judge needs to know about, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.880 but he can make a determination not is she competent today, 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.720 but is she competent today because she's been competent the 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:07.240 whole time? 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.559 And Troy, how are you feeling about testifying tomorrow? 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:22.680 It feels like if it's something I can do to 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.560 help my kids, then it's good that there is at 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.000 least something actively I can do, you know. At this point, finally, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.360 it's been so long since anything has even had a 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.959 potential to make a difference. So that part, yeah, I mean, 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.679 that's that's something that I am. You know, I guess 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.360 I don't happy about it, but it's something that I'm 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:43.880 definitely happy to do. 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.840 I don't want to keep you any later. Thanks for 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.640 making time again to speak with us. Thank you very 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:50.800 much for the update. We'll of course be thinking of 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.880 you guys tomorrow and we'll keep an eye on updates 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.480 on what happens. And good luck. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.720 All right, Counsel and Ms Harrold. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.959 My name is James Bonathan on the administrative judge here 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:10.480 at the Court. 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:14.080 I will be taking. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:19.080 Over this case the next day. November seventeenth, twenty twenty two, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.760 the hearing Troy has been waiting for finally began. 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.480 Would you please state and name the spell your last 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.319 name for the record, short Turner to you are, and 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:33.880 you are mister Turner Howell at fifty. 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.240 Matt told us that after weeks of waiting for the 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.400 hospital to comply with the subpoena to deliver Catherine's medical records, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.040 Perkins finally delivered thousands of pages, and Troy is called 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.560 to the witness stand to be questioned by State's attorney 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:48.000 John McCarthy. 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:49.840 Tell us a little bit about the nature of their 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:51.120 relationship and how long you've known. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:56.520 We're coworkers. We met in November of two thousand and seven, 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.800 and in two thousand and eight we started to see 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:03.080 each other and we had our first child later that year, 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.240 and then Sarah and Jacob came later. We lived together 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.000 for about six and a half years, sixty and a 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:09.640 half years. 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.600 McCarthy persuades the court that it's important that Troy testify, 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.920 in large part because no one at Perkins has ever 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:21.600 spoken to him about Catherine's competence, about his conversations with her, 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.360 and what he insists is not just lucidity, but literally 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.400 a plan to get away with murder. 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.800 Did she did any of those conversations discuss with you 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.240 what was the best path for her to pursue in 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:38.760 this case? 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:49.640 Yes, explain that in competency was the best path. The basically, 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.160 she was advised to remain incompetent. From my understanding and 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:59.400 from what she said to me, she understood everything. 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:01.880 You can remember the conversation. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.600 Tell us about what was being said at the time 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.960 that she indicated that that about the competency bad thing. 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.520 The ones she wanted to pursue, specifically was that she 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:16.800 was not going to plead guilty to killing the children, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:20.920 and her way to not do that and not be 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:22.719 accountable for that was incompetency. 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.160 Did she say to you why she didn't want to 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.480 please guilty to killing the kids? 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:30.080 She said she didn't do it. 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.640 The state's attorney is leading Troy down a familiar path, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.679 but one that this new judge hasn't heard before. McCarthy 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.720 is getting Troy to explain how rational Catherine seems, how 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.960 motivated she appears to be to remain incompetent, that this 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:53.000 label wasn't simply applied by her doctors but actively chosen 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:55.679 by her as a way to avoid accountability. 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.400 And did she ever speak about jail with you? 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:01.839 Yes? 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.360 What did she say about jail. 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.160 That she would not be safe in there? 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.640 How many different conversations do you think you had with 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:12.640 Katherine once she arrived at Firk. 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:16.640 How many times you talked about for the first year 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:17.160 and a half? 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:17.800 Let me see. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.880 I would say for the first year it was minimum 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:24.680 three or four times a week. A lot of weeks 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:29.200 was daily. I was calling quite often, trying to see 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.440 if she would slip up and say something about where 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:31.960 my kids were. 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.560 The conversation relating to her wanting to remain income, when 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:37.560 did that take place? 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.000 There were several of them, so it was over the 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:47.120 course of from two thousand and fourteen through twenty eighteen. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.840 Troy answers questions from the state's attorney for over an hour. 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:57.240 They covered Troy's early life with Catherine, his attempts to 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.360 get her to tell him what happened to the kids, 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.240 and his efforts to get anyone at Perkins to talk 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:04.640 to him about Catherine. 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:18.920 Thank you, sure, I think I'm done, Okay, mister Belson. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:25.880 I need a minute just to organize my thoughts. 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:31.720 That I may, you may. 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.480 The state has just finished questioning Troy Turner, Sarah and 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.280 Jacob's father, as Catherine's attorney, David Felson takes time to 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.200 prepare his cross examination. Troy waits in the witness chair. 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.720 He has no idea what's coming. Despite all the years 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.840 of pushing for this hearing, the weeks of prep done 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.960 by him and Matt, you can't be prepared for everything, 0:15:57.640 --> 0:15:59.840 and Troy is about to find that out. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:06.600 Sure, you filed a lawsuit in the Circuit Court for 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:12.479 Montomery County, Maryland, number one two seven zero three zero 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.400 FL in the matter of Catherine Howard. You remember doing 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:22.040 that twenty fifteen vaguely, and you sign something under oath 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:22.760 in that case. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:23.080 Didn't it? 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.960 Honestly? I don't remember. Okay. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.360 That was a lawsuit to have you declared as her 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.200 guardian of the person and her property. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.120 Isn't that correct that I remember doing that? 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:39.360 Yet? 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:39.960 So good? 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:40.760 Okay. 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.680 Catherine's lawyer isn't talking about the affidavit Troy signed attesting 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.880 to his belief that Catherine is malingering, and he's not 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.040 talking about Troy's successful petition to revoke Catherine's parental rights 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.120 of their eldest son. Felsen is talking about another approach 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:00.880 Troy made to the court. Just said, seven months after 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.320 the kids went missing, a request for guardianship over Catherine, 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.960 giving him power to direct her care and control her finances. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.159 And this is when she was already in the Clifton 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:14.119 de Permons Hospital. 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:21.600 Yes, when Troy filed this petition, Catherine had already been 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.879 declared incompetent. He tried desperately to get Catherine to tell 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.000 him what had happened to their children. He called the 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.560 hospital constantly, but Catherine wouldn't budge. She just kept saying 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.640 that Sarah and Jacob were fine. In his guardianship petition, 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.800 Troy indicated that Perkins wasn't keeping him looped into her treatment, 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.760 that they wouldn't let him visit, and for the sake 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:47.960 of the children, Troy needed to be kept in the loop. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:56.760 And you said, under oath with Hoddell lacked sufficient understanding 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.520 or capacity to make or communicate were reasonable to decicians 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:05.080 regarding her health care treatment, including the administration of medicine 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.639 or the administration of financial affairs. 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:11.960 You swore that was true, Okay. 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.040 Felson is pointing out what could be perceived as a 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.879 major contradiction. Back then, Troy was arguing that Catherine was 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.840 not competent enough to make her own decisions about her 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:27.320 health care, but Felson is pointing out that now Troy 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.080 wants the court to find her competent enough to help 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.439 in her own defense and to stand trial. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:34.119 Did you or did you not? 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.359 Ante, I asked, I don't remember if it's there or by. 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:40.520 Times I know one police. 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:46.480 But Troy has consistently maintained that Catherine is and always 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:50.600 has been competent, that she can and should be held 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.040 responsible for whatever happened to the kids, That she is 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:58.200 mentally ill, but not so mentally ill that she's unaccountable 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:03.680 to him, to society, and to Sarah and Jacob. 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.119 Actually, what I wanted to do was get treatment, hoping 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:08.560 if she. 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:10.920 If she was. 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.480 Talking to someone, that she would talk about my kids 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:15.320 and say where they were. 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:22.040 From Troy's perspective, this guardianship petition wasn't about whether Catherine 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.560 was competent or not. His kids were gone and he 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:30.359 was desperate with so few options, so that petition was 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:34.159 just another tool he was willing to use. And just 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.480 like he never expected, he would post flyers of his 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.840 missing kids in the windows of coffee shops, that he 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.320 would stare at their empty, unmade beds night after night. 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.560 He never expected this petition could haunt him, that it 0:19:48.600 --> 0:19:52.080 would be thrown back in his face years later, during 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.280 his one shot to convince the court that Catherine knows 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.720 exactly what she's doing and always has. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.240 So that was an attempt when you followed us, it 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:08.800 was an attempt to get information about where your children were. 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:12.359 Of course, okay, so. 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.639 It wasn't to care for his hot in terms of 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:19.200 caring for her as to find out where my children were, 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.800 the only way I felt was for her to get 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:23.360 someone to properly talk to her. 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.439 Trying to explain himself from the witness stand, Troy is 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:33.119 racked with anxiety and sadness. Catherine is sitting right there, 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.720 refusing to make eye contact with him. He can see 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:41.320 her whispering to her attorney making notes. When Sarah and 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.520 I talked to him later, he explained what was going 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:46.600 through his mind at that moment. 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:56.480 Very angry. I mean, right now, I think it's towards Catherine. 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:58.240 I'm hearing some of the stuff I heard in the 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:04.679 hearing towards her parents, even more so than before towards 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.800 her attorney, because he's the piece of garbage. I mean, 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.280 like I understand on your job, but also the way 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.919 that he goes about and the things that he's done. 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:13.800 It's just. 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.520 Troy is dismissed and steps off the witness stand. 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:34.960 First of all, you are, I guess I should address 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:37.399 the fact that we are going to be requesting the 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:42.640 court to conduct a bladir of Obun's hoggle an open 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:43.479 court on the record. 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:49.000 All day, since before Troy first took the stand, McCarthy 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:52.760 and Felson have been sniping over a key issue, maybe 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.159 the key issue of the day, whether Catherine can be 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.320 questioned by Circuit Court Judge James A. Bonafadt. 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:04.359 I think the examination of her today on the record 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:05.840 would be particularly. 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.280 Timely in allowing you to. 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.119 Read those records with a more intelligent eye as to 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.680 what is important and whether you agree or disagree with 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.960 any of the observations are made by the doctors at 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:17.399 Clifton T. 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:18.040 Perkins. 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.679 The state wants Catherine questioned, but Phelson argues that she 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.560 has a right to remain silent. 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.480 She has a did themendic privilege not to test. But 0:22:27.680 --> 0:22:31.080 more important, more important, I was already has it for it. 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:37.160 Any interview that Pork does in this set is not 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:38.240 going to be relevant. 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.439 Troy also wants Catherine to be questioned because he wants 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.080 the judge to see what he sees a woman who's competent, 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.200 a woman who can assist her counsel, a woman who 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.360 was more than capable of acting in her own best interests, 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.280 even if she couldn't do that for her own kids. 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:05.080 You can't plead incompetency and then refuse to answer questions. 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:08.960 I think that there's an implicit waiver of that Fifth 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:09.760 Amendment Frickage. 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.560 In his argument to the judge, Felson attacked the state's position. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.320 It's not pleading of inhabitants. 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:22.080 It's a suggestion of intrabinans that results in the ardors 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:22.720 and evaluation. 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.800 And then I find if there's client, she doesn't planed anything. 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:29.760 And the reason she hasn't plant anything, she doesn't play 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:32.359 not guilty. She doesn't play an see all, she hasn't 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:34.200 played guilty just because she's. 0:23:34.040 --> 0:23:35.320 Not competent to do that. 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:40.560 Listening intently to all of this is Judge Bonavan. It's 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.679 his call, and all eyes are on him as he 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:44.600 makes a decision. 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:54.920 All right, what I'm going to do? 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.920 Uh, mister Felson. I appreciate your statement that I'm persuaded 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:09.040 by the crash now and legal reasoning that the Fifth 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.639 Amendment does not arise when the defended statements are used 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:15.600 solely for the limited neutral purpose of determining competency to 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:16.399 stand trial. 0:24:18.119 --> 0:24:21.280 This is it. This is the moment that Troy has 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.560 been waiting for for the first time since Sarah and 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.879