WEBVTT - Why I Had to Pull Out the Operation Card to Get Larry Bird 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.120 This is the Dream Team Tapes, a Diversion Podcasts original 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:13.960 series in association with I Heart Radio. Coming into the 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:18.480 nine Olympic Games in Seoul, South Korea, the United States 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.040 had compiled an astonishing seventy one and one record in 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:26.360 men's basketball. Basketball was our game and and no other 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.080 venue was that so apparent as in the Olympics. But 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:32.880 that year was different. While the rest of the world, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.840 who had been learning the game from the Americans, were 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.479 sending their best players, the American team, made up of 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.760 all college players, struggled to an embarrassing bronze medal finish. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.800 That was the last time we sent our boys. Now 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:54.560 it was time to send our men. Larry Berd St. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:17.800 Michael sure for oh John stop Chris Mullet trust her magic. Well, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.520 let's see. Patrick Johnson said it was his best memory ever. 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.760 I finally got St. Michael and Larry and also know 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.920 them as men, and that that right there, for me 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:34.680 was the best all the nine Michael Knox Days chairs. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.759 Michael Jordan used it as a scouting expedition was lightning 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:41.759 for me because I never got to see how these 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:46.200 better got lived. It was more of a scouting for me. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:52.840 I wanted to see how Madame jed game. Larry Bird said, well, 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.800 good thing. It didn't go on any longer. I always say, 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:57.920 if that team was together another two weeks, I had 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.320 a lot of problems. You could see it. And the 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:04.960 late great David Stern, who died on New Year's Day, 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.360 Wait a minute, called me a bozo. Now what people 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.840 don't remember. It's like boos like you that would say 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.560 this is now the dream Team of clessed memory. They 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:20.959 forget it. Charles Elbos angle in you know, bad sportsmanship 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:24.839 the US. This is crazy. What are we doing going? 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:26.880 And I hope you go back and giving Why are 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.359 you sending these things? This is the humiliate people. Michael 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.600 Coverage up this logo with the American plague. I mean 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:37.960 it was a you know, now it becomes theatified. That 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.000 is just a small sample of what I got during 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.680 the two years it took me The right dream Team, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.160 the two thousand and twelve New York Times bestseller about 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.680 what many, probably most considered the greatest team of all time. 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.800 I'm Jack McCallum, and this is episode one of the 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:00.280 Dream Team tapes. There will be eight podcast s in 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.320 this series, and yes, everything that David Stern brought up, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:08.120 trust me will be covered by this bozo and much more. Somehow, 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.680 I had managed to preserve all of my audio tapes 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.720 from those magical years leading up to the formation of 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.720 the Dream Team, the games in Barcelona, and even the aftermath. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.919 All that material was captured on an old fashioned radio 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:25.720 shack recorder. You'll hear it all the voices of all 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:30.240 twelve Dream teamers, companied by a few authentic scratches. I 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.080 interviewed the players all over the place, at their homes, 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.560 in their cars in the case of Larry Bird and 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.200 Michael Jordan, in their offices. You'll hear the voice of 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.960 the late Chuck Daly, the head coach of the Dream Team, 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.280 and lots of material from his assistant, Mike Shaski. You'll 0:03:45.320 --> 0:03:48.360 get answers to all of those questions. How exactly was 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.080 the team selected? Did Michael Jordan really want to play? 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.000 Did he keep Isaiah Thomas off the team? Was there 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:59.680 a rivalry for leadership of the Dream Team? Hint? Yes, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.840 Why did Charles Barkley throw the most famous elbow in 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:09.320 Olympic history at a seemingly helpless in Golden Player. Charles 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.280 claims to have a good reason. Now, Magic Johnson was 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:15.600 just a half year remove from announcing that he had HIV. 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.480 How did that play out? And did the story end 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:22.360 when the Dream Team won the gold medal? No way. 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:24.400 If you remember some of that stuff from the book, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.799 well okay, but there's more. This is the real stuff, 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.280 none of which you've ever heard before in audio form. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.440 I feel fortunate to have been on a journey with 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.640 these guys. I don't want to take you with me. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.479 Always in basketball circles, from time to time the subject 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.599 of Olympic basketball comes up, and once again everyone conjures 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:49.240 up the greatest team of all time. In this first episode, 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:50.680 I wanted to give you a sense of what it 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.760 was like to write the book, how the interviews went down, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.279 behind the scenes stuff I'm calling it why I had 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.159 to pull out the operation card to get Larry Bird 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.880 to talk. And as I set out to interview these guys, 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.159 one thought was in my mind, Michael, Magic, Larry. I 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.080 guess that's three thoughts. But there is a hierarchy of 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.919 needs every time you're gathering information, and at the top 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:20.400 of that hierarchy were Jordan's Magic and Bird. Now they 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.560 would all present difficulties to round up Magic because he's 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.760 so damn busy, Jordan because he's so damn elusive, and 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:32.040 Bird because he's so damn moody and unpredictable. Get him talking. 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.039 He's unbelievable. The key is to get him talking. I 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.080 started out with Scottie Pipman. I arranged to meet him 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.279 at a hotel near his home in Florida. With the 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.080 exception of Christian Latener, Pippen was probably the player I knew, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:50.440 least on a personal basis, which is somewhat astounding, since 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.960 I had done about three thousand, four hundred and seventy 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.880 eight stories on the Bulls over the years, but they 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.400 were rarely centered on Scottie. There were times I even 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.000 went out to Chicago with the express purpose of doing 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.960 a Pippin story, and then Jordan would go for forty 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.400 nine and forty two and do something else outrageous, and 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.560 Jesse Jackson would be hanging around his locker, and sure 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.760 enough it would turn into another Michael Jordan's story. I 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.000 even felt somewhat guilty then about my treatment of Pipping, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:23.520 especially since I knew I would end up asking him. 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.760 Even in this interview about Jordan's and I did, and 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:32.360 he was great and very honest. A sample. Michael is huge. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.840 He's getting hit last week, and most of the time 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.600 it's good for him because he may score forty points, 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:42.479 he may score thirty five points, and he's always going 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.840 to have a spinoff that Michael it is but t is, 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.240 you know. So you know we had to go to 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:55.440 lows as a mean and as players you have to 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.840 sure that and you have to read it. But you 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.640 still gotta keep pushing bowl. You know. You think Michael 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.440 ever admitted that he needed some behavior modificing that he 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:13.000 needed the change whenever admit that. I walked away from 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.040 that interview thinking, man, if I can get stuff like 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.440 that from everybody, I'll be in good shape. And I'll 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.000 always be grateful to Scotty for getting me off to 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.840 a good start. When I went to visit Karl Malone 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.360 at his home in Ruston, Louisiana, he said to me, 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.920 be prepared, Jack. I noticed, ain't your thing. I walked 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:35.560 in and I was in a wildlife museum. Hanging from 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:39.480 the ceiling and walls were about one mounted animals big 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.520 game that Malone had shot from Canada to Alaska and 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.280 apparently according to what he said, they included the Grand 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.040 Slam of sheep. Here is a Grand Slam of sheet 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:53.640 right here in the honey world, those four sheet there 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:58.480 would be the Super Bowl, NBA Championship, and all in 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.400 the hunting world. She don't ask me what it is. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.360 This isn't wild Kingdom. Look it up. I could never 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:07.440 figure out why Malone and I got along so well. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.360 I never fired a gun, never had the slightest interest 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.760 in driving gargantuan tractor trailers, another Malone passion that I 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:17.520 had written about. And I'm positive that I never wanted 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.480 to get into a political discussion with him. But I 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.920 always enjoyed his company, and he mined, presumably, and I 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.360 guess it had something to do with his honesty. Anyway, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.200 if there were two players on the Dream Team who 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:32.920 were not sympotico, it was Magic Johnson and Carl Malone. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.360 I'll tell you about that in future episodes. From Alone, 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.360 I went to Stockton, I know it should have been 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.280 the other way around, Stockton to Malone. The majority of 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:49.120 John's fifteen thousand, eight hundred and six assists, most in 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:53.640 NBA history, went to Carl. The interview, which took place 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.360 in his hometown of Spokane was so impossibly Stockton I 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.000 in first, he expressed horror when I pulled out my 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.280 tape recorder. John, I didn't fly three thousand miles to 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:10.520 Spokane not to take notes, Okay, he said reluctantly. Then, 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.760 like a dutiful tour guide, he showed me around his hometown. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.400 Now we're looking down at Gonzaga's Niagara Falls. We had 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.640 the World's Fair here in See. That's where the main 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.200 hall was. We saw John's junior high. We saw Jack 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:26.960 and Dan's, the bar that used to be owned by 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.640 John's father and was a staple of every John Stockton 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.360 story ever written. We walked around the campus of Gonzaga, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.520 where he really started on his unlikely road to superstardom. 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.680 John also told me about his boyhood encounter with Isaiah Thomas, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.480 whose entry onto the Dream Team and his continued place 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:50.280 on it after an injury is deeply connected to Isaiah. 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.840 More on that later, but here is Stockton on meeting 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.240 Isaiah at an a AU tournament when John was fifteen 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.839 years old. We were driving through spoke hand by the way, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.960 so the quality is not that great. The game goes 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.079 on at the inter corner. What it looked like to me, 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:08.960 decided that he wasn't going to do a coach said 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.199 anymore and break the press his way. He was just 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.360 gonna trouble to it, so he drop through it, dunking. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:19.240 I could pay somebody to be that here now, Patrick Ewing. 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:22.120 I never succeeded in getting much out of Patrick over 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.319 the years. I liked him a lot and knew him 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.319 back before he went to Georgetown. After he became a 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.160 nick Patrick always agreed to talk, but he usually scheduled 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.360 the interview after practice when he was getting post practice 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.440 medical treatment, which meant I had about half his attention. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:42.480 But when I saw Patrick down in Orlando, he was 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:44.880 in an assistant magic coach and is now the headman 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.120 at Georgetown, his alma matter. He was loose and charming. 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:50.840 He told me a funny story about Jordan from the 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:54.320 nineteen four Olympics. We were horsing the run and he 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.280 hit me in the headlock, and you know, I'm trying 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:58.880 to get out of that. Pick him up and I'm 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:00.760 trying to get out of it. I will. I wake 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.079 up the next morning and I can't move my neck, 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.439 I can't move my head. I'm trying to move my head. 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:10.280 I could not move it. So what going to Bobby 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:12.360 at the coach, I can't practice it and he's like, 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.760 why because I got a quick at my neck I 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.720 couldn't move. He got so pissed, though, but he got 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.600 on meeting, you know, Michael. Obviously much more on Jordan 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:35.800 to come. I really had no background with Christian Latener 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:39.040 at all. I remember introducing myself to him after the 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.120 Dream Team was picked and he basically looked through me 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.959 as if to say, why should I care who you are? 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.600 After that, I didn't even bother with him. But he 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.280 was in a tough situation with the Dream Team. So 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:53.920 many people thought he didn't belong and how the hell 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.640 was he going to contribute much in any case? And 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:58.640 here's what he said about that. If I'm not at 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.280 that oppression around level, then I just a good kid 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.280 with a good personality who knows his place. And if 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.600 my place is very low on the totem pole. Because Magic, 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.719 Chatson and Bird and Michael on the team, it was 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:17.000 an easy transition. I'm very good at that role. I 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.080 don't mind that role. It's a lot of fun. I 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.960 caught up the Laatener during Bob Hurley senior's charity golf 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:25.440 tournament in Montclair, New Jersey. It was a miserable day, 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.840 and I wrote around with Christian in a golf cart. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:31.400 He didn't feel much like answering questions. He was having 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:35.160 much publicized money problems at the time. But he was game, 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.400 and he even offered me an extra umbrella out on 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.960 the course. You know, it struck me how different Latener's 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.600 experiences were from all the other players. So he was 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:50.199 inside the team, he was almost an outsider, his perceptions 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.920 more like those of a fan than one of the guys. 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:57.040 He told me three things stuck out for him. First, 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.480 the transitional speed of the game, that is, how fast 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.360 things moved on changes of possessions. Even the so called 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.120 quote slow players maybe Stockton and Chris Mullen, were much 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.640 faster than the highest levels of the college game. Three 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:17.040 steps faster at least number two. How passes were thrown 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.400 the moment you got open, he just held out your 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.680 hand in the ball arrived as the way Latner put it. 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.920 And later, his favorite moment came in a practice session 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.800 when two of his college teammates, Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley, 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.200 had just arrived. They were part of a college all 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.840 star team that would scrimmage the Dreamers, and they saw 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.080 Charles Barkley go down the baseline against Karl Malone. Here 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.320 is Latner describing it. So I'm playing and I see 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.360 Bobby and Graham walked in and like a minute later, 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.080 part be done down Malone and they're all like that. Well, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.640 let's move to Clyde Drexler O m G. As the 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:55.720 kids say. Clyde and I had always gotten along pretty well. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.600 At times. I know he considered me one of those 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.760 Jordan Canoe no wrong, and why aren't I recognized more writers? 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.120 But he liked me, and I liked him. We did 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.360 the interview at Clyde's house. He made me a delicious 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:14.040 chicken salad sandwich. We talked about how our respective fathers 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.000 had been butchers. We talked about how we had played 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.160 golf together with Barkley and writer Jan Hubbard and Monte Carlo. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.400 But then he started in on a Jordan's tangent, claiming 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.440 that did I think Jordan was better than me? No way? 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.440 And here's a little bit of what he said. I'll 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:38.440 clarify in a second more. He said he was bigger, faster, stronger, 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.600 and the only thing Jordan could do better than him 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.640 was shoot more Clyde Clyde. Clyde Clyde was damn good, 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.400 as he says, but no, he was not better than 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.800 Michael Jordan's. One of my all time favorite quotes, now 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.880 maybe he had to be there, was offered by Rod Thorne, 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.400 who drafted Jordan's when he was general manager of the 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.680 Bulls and later became a much respected NBA executive. You'll 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.040 be hearing from Rod later. Anyway, Rod had always enjoyed 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:11.280 kidding Steve Snapper Jones, who was the Trailblazers announcer, a 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.960 great guy himself. Snapper died a few years ago. Snapper 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.560 would always claim that Drexler was just as good as Jordan's, 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:22.800 and one day Rod said in his West Virginia drawl, Steve, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.880 y'all got t vs out there in Portland. If Clyde 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.120 really wants to get Piste off, by the way, he 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:36.120 can ponder this sound bite that I got from Jordan's. Man, 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.800 that's taking speaking about yourself in the third person to 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:52.280 a whole new level. One of my most enjoyable interviews 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:54.920 was with Chris Mullen. I had found out he was 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.800 going to be spending some time at his place in 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.280 the Hampton's, so I said I would meet him there. 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.600 My wife came with me the meals. They are a 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.760 great bring money. Mullin was always the most unassuming, a 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:09.280 prose a guy who jim ratted himself all the way 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.240 to the Hall of Fame, overcoming a stay in alcohol 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.520 rehab along the way. Chris was one of the few 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.280 players to whom I showed a few minutes of what 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.320 I called the greatest game nobody ever saw, the famed 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.440 inter Squad Scrimmage and Monte Carlo and the subject of 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.000 podcast number six in this series. Hey Liz came here, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.480 Chris shouted to his wife when I showed him a 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.600 couple of seconds of Bird making a steal and converting 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.239 a layup during the scrimmage. Watch Larry on this play. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.480 That spoke to the almost what I would call deification 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.640 of Bird that took place among several members of the team. 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.480 It came about because of Bird's quiet, unassuming leadership, his 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.200 willingness to stay behind the scenes despite his iconic place 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.760 in the game. It was obvious where I would go 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.359 to interview David Robinson to the Carver School in San Antonio, 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.680 a school for disadvantaged youth that he had at after 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.600 he retired. David had always talked about doing it, and 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.639 that's exactly what he did. Interestingly, whenever any of the 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.159 other Dream teamers talked about David, they talked, of course 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:16.200 about his athleticism and his intelligence, but also about how 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.399 of all of them, Robinson was the least competitive. Here's 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.720 what Jordan's said about Robinson and David. Robson loved music, 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:29.160 he day basketball because he he said, sed, he is passionate, 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:36.560 the same as a guy who oh me, he's wow. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:41.159 Michael used, enthralled. Now that isn't quite fair to David, 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.320 who always claimed he was much more competitive than he 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:47.280 was given credit for. But we had a long and 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:52.440 fascinating conversation about how he always felt trapped between two worlds, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.159 between the student and the athlete, and the black world 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.200 and the white world. I guess every kid says it's difficult. 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:00.919 I mean I I thought it was. I thought it 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.439 was difficult because I didn't been in really either world 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.200 pretty much most of the time. Felt uncomfortable because you 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.000 know what I mean, if I was in my classes 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:10.680 and I was with you, you know, at the white boat. 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.840 Everyone was nice to you up to a certain point, 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:15.679 you know, but then you know you're still the different 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:20.360 one and social glass shielding a little bit. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.240 So you know, they would invite me to the little 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.680 party and then you know, they play spending the bottle 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.359 or something and they'd be like weak, you could be 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:28.800 the referee, you know. So you know, it's that kind 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.280 of stuff. So so you know, you you felt like, yeah, 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.560 you know, they're cool up to a certain point, but 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:35.760 then you know, you go out into you know, I 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.200 would go, you know, play ball or go hang out 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.520 somewhere with you know, with with the other kids and 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.000 black kids, and I'd be you know, it was fun 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.439 up to a certain point, but then you know that 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:49.760 we might be talking trash, something going on, you know, 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.160 and I'd be like, if you speak a certain way 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:54.800 or if you act a certain way, you know, sometimes 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.440 they'll they'll call your uncle Tom or something like that. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.159 You know. Let's say, man, you know you're just you're 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.959 not lacking up. And then on the other side, you're 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.159 not white enough. So I think it's just it was 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:07.439 probably a little bit of both those things, because you know, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.320 there are certain things I didn't feel comfortable. You know, 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.720 people people who talk trash and they say stuff, and 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.040 I didn't. I wasn't good at that game, you know, 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.119 I don't. I don't like when people to say, you know, 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.440 say something negative. Well, I want to a man who 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.040 never seemed to have much trouble figuring out who he is, 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.720 getting ahold of Charles Barkley and having him sit still 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.280 for a couple of hours isn't easy. He'll return maybe 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.840 one of my ten phone calls. So I made a 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.960 call to the bullpen for Julie Five, the long time 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.080 public relations person for the Phoenix Suns, who had kept 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:45.120 Charles out of innumerable scrapes during his years as a son. 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.760 One tool for a journalist. If you can't get somebody 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.600 yourself very easily, you got to know who to go to. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.320 We talked about the usual stuff, including Charles elbowing the 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.320 and Golden Player, which he did in the Dream Team's 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.199 first game in Barcelona. Will get back to that. But 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.679 considering Charles was only a little while removed from his 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.320 celebrated d u I, during which he spent a weekend 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:11.480 in jail in Arizona, it was hard to avoid the 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.720 subject of drinking, even my drinking, and our conversation begins 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.960 with Charles telling me he took a cab to dinner 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.720 the background noises because we're in a restaurant in Phoenix. 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:24.040 I was having this conversation with a cab drive on 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.600 the way over here. That's how funny it is. He 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.960 didn't drive over here. I can't drive. Were you in 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:36.479 jail a long weekend? Already? Do to make money here? 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.200 So there was Charles being all chased and careful watching 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:43.840 my alcohol intake. And when we had finished with the interview, 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.320 he asked me to drive him home because he had, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.120 you know, taken a cab to dinner. And I said sure, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.320 and we started home. In a few miles into the journey, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.480 Charles said, Jack, pull over here there was a bar. 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.280 He invited me to join him. I declined. He assured 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:01.199 me he could get at home. I didn't doubt that 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.840 for a moment. We exchanged goodbyes, and I thought, as 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.240 I always did when I was around him, the world 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.160 would be a lot less interesting place without Charles Barkley 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:16.280 in it. So Michael Magic Larry still had to get them. 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.000 Negotiations were ongoing. He had a shot with Magic because 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.119 he has a guy, a guy I've known for a 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.680 long time, Lan Rosen. I kept calling Lawn finally caught 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.880 up the magic at the two thousand eleven finals where 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:33.520 he was doing commentary for ABC. We talked about a 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:40.160 lot of things, including of course HIV. As man, you say, okay, 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.439 let me just educate this guy. And I think that 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.359 the commissioner Starn and the NBA did a wonderful job 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.800 of educating the players. I did my part on educating 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:55.399 the players, and then uh so I retired again after 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:57.879 I was going to come back. Then we did a 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.480 great job of educate not just a it but the 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:05.439 world because the world was uh not educated in Welsh. 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.560 So when you think about all the misinformation that was 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:13.800 out there, so I had to be the person who 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.440 could now, okay, let me give you the right information. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.119 Let me education. And then the Olympics actually gave me 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:24.000 the platform to show the world a guy with HIV 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.159 could deal play play at a high level and he 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.840 wasn't going to get HIV by playing against me. More 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:38.880 on that subject. Obviously, Jordan required some negotiation. You don't 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.160 go through the team, meaning the Charlotte Hornets to get 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.840 Michael you go through st Portnoy, Michael's long time and 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:52.840 quite formidable gatekeeper. Besides Jordan's natural reticence, I had one 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.199 other thing going against me, Jordan's long standing war with 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.920 Sports Illustrated, which came about because of what Jordan considered 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:04.480 an insulting cover we wrote about his baseball career. I've 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:06.520 talked about it so often I feel like it's written 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:08.720 on my forehead. I didn't have anything to do with 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:12.080 that story, and Jordan didn't hold it against me. But 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:15.240 in my request to Estey, I made sure to mention 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.720 that Dream Team had nothing to do with Sports Illustrated. Okay, 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.600 she finally wrote back, Michael will give you fifteen minutes, 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:26.280 and the only subject to be discussed is the Dream Team. Now. 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:28.919 A tip to young journalist, if you want to hear it. 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.800 When somebody's representative gives you a time limitation and a 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:37.480 subject restriction, just agree to it, particularly if he or 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:41.560 she is repping somebody famous. Don't waste your time arguing 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:45.320 with it. But when the time comes, simply ignore the 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.000 mandate and keep going for as long as you can. 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.080 Chances are, if you have the subject talking, he will 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.440 just keep on talking half the time, the subject doesn't 0:23:55.480 --> 0:23:58.600 even know what was agreed upon or really doesn't care 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:02.359