1
00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,600
Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

2
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 2: Her last words before she fell into the mud again

3
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:24,720
Speaker 2: unconscious or let me die, Let me Die.

4
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

5
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

6
00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,440
Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

7
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

8
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,720
Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

9
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,480
Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

10
00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,920
Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

11
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,720
Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

12
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

13
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:05,080
Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. A murdered teenage girl, a

14
00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 1: suspicious affluent family, and a lot of sticky social situations.

15
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 1: They're all in our story, which is set in nineteenth

16
00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: century London. Who killed sixteen year old Jane Maria Cluson.

17
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: Author Paul Thomas Murphy details it in his book Pretty

18
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 1: Jane and the Viper of kidbro Clane, a true story

19
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,560
Speaker 1: of Victorian law and disorder. The unsolved murder that shocked

20
00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:36,679
Speaker 1: Victorian England. When you tell people about this book, what

21
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,720
Speaker 1: are the themes that come up for you when they say, well,

22
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: why does this matter? Why did you even write this

23
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 1: book about this young woman who dies?

24
00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,960
Speaker 2: Well, I've always been a Victorianist and always interested in

25
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 2: social and cultural conflict in the Victorian era, and I've

26
00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 2: written three books. The first one was about the would

27
00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:00,720
Speaker 2: be assassins of Queen Victoria. Freddy Jane was the second book.

28
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,279
Speaker 2: What I was thinking about putting together the second book,

29
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:05,960
Speaker 2: I thought it'd be a good idea to sort of

30
00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:08,480
Speaker 2: look at the other end of the social spectrum from

31
00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 2: Queen Victoria. Jane Kluson, who's at the heart of the book,

32
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 2: fits that bill very nicely. There is a great deal

33
00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,079
Speaker 2: of cultural conflict and social conflict in this book, so

34
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 2: social class and class relations and class relations on all

35
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,920
Speaker 2: kinds of levels too. In the house she was a servant,

36
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:30,800
Speaker 2: So in the household, I mean there was just in

37
00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:35,200
Speaker 2: every house in Greenwich where this took place, there was

38
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,800
Speaker 2: a miniature class system at work. I found that very interesting,

39
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 2: very insightful, very interesting to learn about. That's really the

40
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 2: central thing I hope people get out of this book

41
00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,119
Speaker 2: is that by looking at what happened to this sixteen

42
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 2: seventeen year old servant, her life, her death, what happened

43
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,120
Speaker 2: after her death, you learn a lot about that little

44
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,119
Speaker 2: section of southeast London, as much to get there as

45
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 2: there was in looking at Queen Victoria in that world

46
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:11,480
Speaker 2: that she inhabited.

47
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,000
Speaker 1: Is this as simple as the Upstairs Downstairs kind of

48
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,000
Speaker 1: classic story or there has to be more nuance to

49
00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,480
Speaker 1: this one. I can't imagine.

50
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 2: There is actually a big difference between I mentioned Upstairs,

51
00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 2: Downstairs and Downtown Abbey in my book, but mostly in

52
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,280
Speaker 2: contrast to what happened in this story. Jane Clusen was

53
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:37,080
Speaker 2: a servant. Interestingly, when her body was found, they could

54
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,760
Speaker 2: tell pretty quickly that she was a servant because of

55
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 2: the calluses on her hands and on her knees. They

56
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,000
Speaker 2: knew what she did. Again, she had just turned seventeen

57
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,640
Speaker 2: two days before she died. Actually she was also as

58
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,040
Speaker 2: it turns out, they realized that she was a servant

59
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,200
Speaker 2: that was then called a mate of all work, which

60
00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 2: was general a single servant in a middle class household.

61
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 2: So that's the big difference. It wasn't just this network

62
00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: of servants and the kind of when I think of upstairs,

63
00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 2: downstairs and downtown abbey, this kind of generally cheerful crew.

64
00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 2: This was very different. She was alone, largely at least

65
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,280
Speaker 2: in the downstairs part of things. These sort of social

66
00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 2: distance between her and her employers was much smaller, but

67
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: in the sense the step the divide between them was

68
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 2: equally great. There was a sense that I mean she

69
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,680
Speaker 2: was she was working class. They were middle class in

70
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 2: that household, In every other household like that, the servants

71
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,359
Speaker 2: were never allowed to forget that, and certainly the master

72
00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,800
Speaker 2: and the mistress and the family were also always aware

73
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 2: of that, that sort of difference.

74
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 1: Well, let's start with Jane. How far back do we

75
00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 1: go in her history to understand what the dynamics in

76
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,200
Speaker 1: this house eventually would be. Where does Jane come from?

77
00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,240
Speaker 2: She's a local girl. She became a maid, a maid

78
00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 2: of all work, apparently when she was about twelve years old,

79
00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 2: and that was the usual age that we're talking about,

80
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,840
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy one, that a working class girl would enter

81
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 2: into service like that when she was younger. Anyway, father, mother,

82
00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,200
Speaker 2: two sisters, her younger sister also went into servitude around

83
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,320
Speaker 2: the age of twelve. We know that's when she went

84
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 2: in she actually had. As far as we know, she

85
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 2: worked in three different households. One I think was very

86
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 2: briefly when she started. The other one was a sea

87
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,400
Speaker 2: captain who thought she was actually wonderful, and some question

88
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 2: as to why she left that job. He said that

89
00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,000
Speaker 2: he had seen her many times after that, and I

90
00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 2: think it's because he had an enormous family and she

91
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 2: was really put to work, you know, it was too much,

92
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,680
Speaker 2: too much for her to do that, and so she

93
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 2: moved on the Pook family. That's who she worked for, Ebenezer,

94
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 2: a very Victorian name, Ebenezer Pook, and his wife and

95
00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,960
Speaker 2: their two sons, and there's also a cousin who lived

96
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,320
Speaker 2: in the house, a cousin of his wife. They grew

97
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,719
Speaker 2: up apparently, or at least the family lived in the

98
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 2: same town as Jane did, which was not Greenwich, but Deptford,

99
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 2: which is the town right next to it to the west.

100
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,480
Speaker 2: And he had sort of worked his way into the

101
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 2: middle class. He was a printer in central you can't

102
00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,840
Speaker 2: get more central than where their house was, Greenwich, well

103
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 2: known around the town, was a mason, I think, really

104
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,039
Speaker 2: became a kind of a pillar of that middle class community.

105
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,760
Speaker 2: But he was working class. When he lived in Deptford,

106
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 2: he was a typesetter for the Times, the London Times.

107
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,320
Speaker 2: Then he kind of moved his way up. Jane and

108
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 2: the Poop children could have played together if he had

109
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 2: stayed in Deptford and stayed where he was. I mean,

110
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 2: they were that close. But he moved up and she

111
00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 2: became his servant. At that point his children and she

112
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,200
Speaker 2: were not expected to play with one another. They basically were.

113
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,360
Speaker 2: There was a divide there between them.

114
00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,120
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about the life of a

115
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 1: young servant girl in England in the late eighteen hundreds,

116
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,960
Speaker 1: when were they of age, unfortunately to be able to

117
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: start this work, and tell me what a day was

118
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,160
Speaker 1: like for somebody like Jane at seventeen.

119
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 2: It was. It was pretty nasty, actually there were. It's interestingly.

120
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 2: One interesting thing about this book. I'm getting a little

121
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 2: bit off the subject here, but it ties in was

122
00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,880
Speaker 2: that three weeks before Jane her body was found, the

123
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 2: eighteen seventy one census in the United Kingdom took place.

124
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 2: And that was an amazing tool for me in writing

125
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,800
Speaker 2: this book, because you basically knew the census the way

126
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,560
Speaker 2: it works there every ten years, you know, sixty one

127
00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,200
Speaker 2: seventy one eighty one. They basically had people record who

128
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 2: was sleeping in your house that night before the census

129
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,280
Speaker 2: took place, or before you're supposed to fill in the census.

130
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,440
Speaker 2: And it meant that everybody pretty much involved in this,

131
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 2: they were a lot easier to find. They had you know,

132
00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: it wasn't six years old, they hadn't moved since then

133
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,600
Speaker 2: and all that, and you've got a sense of who

134
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,040
Speaker 2: was sleeping where at what time. And I could find

135
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 2: the clues in entry and Jane was there as the

136
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 2: single worker. Another thing about that work is that people

137
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 2: have compiled the numbers of different jobs people had and

138
00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 2: made of all work accounted for. According to the eighteen

139
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 2: seventy one sentence, seven hundred and eighty thousand of the

140
00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 2: I think one point two something million servants in England,

141
00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 2: which put them two thirds of the servants at the

142
00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 2: time were not upstairs downstairs, but for these single servants

143
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,640
Speaker 2: in middle class houses. Yeah, that does tell you a lot,

144
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,599
Speaker 2: doesn't it It does. Yeah, And she was one of

145
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 2: the seven undred and eighty thousand, and the life for

146
00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 2: them was very difficult. They were estimated to work. I

147
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 2: mean they basically worked from morning until night, six days

148
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 2: a week, had some hours off on Sunday. They were

149
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,200
Speaker 2: estimated to work eighty hours a week. The average factory

150
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,520
Speaker 2: worker at the time worked fifty six hours a week.

151
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,520
Speaker 2: It was a tough life and there was the usual

152
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 2: I mean, keep in mind too that this is London,

153
00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 2: true with southeast London, but it's still industrial London with

154
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,080
Speaker 2: the London Fogs eighteen seventy. It was a dirty town

155
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:28,440
Speaker 2: and soot got into everything, and Jane was largely responsible

156
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 2: for cleaning every day, cleaning out the pretvy, emptying the

157
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,240
Speaker 2: chamber pods, generally doing the cooking and serving too, or

158
00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 2: at least some cooking and serving. Obviously didn't eat with

159
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,120
Speaker 2: the family basically saw to most of their needs. There

160
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 2: was some expectation that if they were following the Missus

161
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 2: Beaton's Book of Household Managements, which tended to be sort

162
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 2: of the Bible of domestic service. In household work in

163
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 2: a house like that, the mistress of the house generally

164
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,000
Speaker 2: helped some you know, making the beds, but really for

165
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 2: the most part, Jane was on her own. She was

166
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,320
Speaker 2: also expected, if she followed the general rules for a

167
00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 2: house like that, to do her work apart from whatever

168
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,440
Speaker 2: was going on in the house. She would generally have

169
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 2: to leave if somebody was using the room kind of

170
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 2: a thing. So there was. It was actually very very

171
00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:25,120
Speaker 2: lonely existence too. She was expected not to have followers.

172
00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,560
Speaker 2: Basically that was kind of a drag on a servant's loyalties.

173
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 2: Although that tended to be the rule, but it tended

174
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,199
Speaker 2: to be the rule that was broken quite a lot. Basically,

175
00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,880
Speaker 2: that kind of lack of a social life I think

176
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 2: was something that is almost humanly impossible as to do so,

177
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,840
Speaker 2: but there were a lot of expectations like that.

178
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 1: What were the opportunities for a young woman like Jane

179
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,439
Speaker 1: to get out of this? Was there any way, aside

180
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 1: from marrying a man above your station, for her to

181
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,800
Speaker 1: be elevated in her job out of being made of

182
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 1: all works?

183
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 2: Well, marrying a man above your station was kind of

184
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 2: a dream. I mean, that was the dream of a

185
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 2: servant like that. But it's interesting that Jane did she

186
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,199
Speaker 2: actually did now. I said she was sleeping in the

187
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,319
Speaker 2: Pook household three weeks before, but between that time and

188
00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,560
Speaker 2: the actual time that she was found about three miles

189
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 2: away on a deserted road, she left that job and

190
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 2: she left it at a very very interesting time. But

191
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,240
Speaker 2: she told her cousin that she was leaving to get

192
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 2: a factory job, and that was another option. And as

193
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,959
Speaker 2: I said, the conditions were better for the most part,

194
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 2: that she was tired of that kind of servitude. So

195
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 2: that's one way out of it. Another way out of it,

196
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 2: in a sense, would be to find a better employer,

197
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,400
Speaker 2: which Jane did not opt to do at that point.

198
00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 2: Another and again this is eighteen seventy one, this is

199
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:03,520
Speaker 2: high Victorian England. There was a period about five days

200
00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,760
Speaker 2: when they couldn't identify her. People started wondering, why isn't

201
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,640
Speaker 2: anybody coming forward and reporting that this child is missing.

202
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,079
Speaker 2: From what you see the newspapers doing with that question

203
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,520
Speaker 2: and the kinds of speculation they gave, you could see

204
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,480
Speaker 2: that another opportunity, but a very very dangerous one. And

205
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,720
Speaker 2: another thing that happened to servants gone bad is that,

206
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,720
Speaker 2: and especially female servants, was that they fell, they fed

207
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 2: in that very Victorian sense, they became fallen women, that

208
00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,240
Speaker 2: they fell into sex work.

209
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,360
Speaker 1: Okay, one last question just about life as a servant

210
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 1: before we get to the story story here. I can't

211
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,840
Speaker 1: imagine that the majority of these young women. These girls

212
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 1: didn't experience abuse in some of these households at many

213
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,319
Speaker 1: different levels. I mean, there must be at a minimum

214
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 1: some emotional abuse, maybe physical, maybe sexual abuse. But was

215
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,400
Speaker 1: there any organization or anything that would protect them. There's

216
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,200
Speaker 1: no human resources department.

217
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,559
Speaker 2: There were charitable institutions that existed for women who quote

218
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,760
Speaker 2: unquote were fallen, but the way they generally worked often

219
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,079
Speaker 2: they had kind of religious connections, but they took in

220
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,200
Speaker 2: young women who were willing to be reformed, did a

221
00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,240
Speaker 2: lot of I believe, Bible reading and hymn singing and

222
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,360
Speaker 2: skill learning or relearning, and then they were placed with

223
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,719
Speaker 2: an employer who knew that they had been in this situation.

224
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,120
Speaker 1: Well, now tell me about the poop household. We know

225
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:43,040
Speaker 1: that they rose up, became middle class, had jane as

226
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: made of all works. Tell me about the dynamic within

227
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 1: the household. What were the people in the house like,

228
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,840
Speaker 1: what were their personalities like? Based on your research.

229
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 2: From evidence that came out later, they came off as

230
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,959
Speaker 2: to me as highly respectable, very considerate of being respectful.

231
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,840
Speaker 2: I mean, there was talk about the cult of respectability,

232
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 2: and they were practitioners of that cult, that's for sure.

233
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,760
Speaker 2: And it really. I mean, the way that becomes the

234
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:19,880
Speaker 2: clearest is their relationship with Jane. Edmund Pook was he

235
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 2: was the youngest son. He was three years older than Jane.

236
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 2: You might think that there be some kind of social

237
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,560
Speaker 2: interaction between them, but his mother, Mary Poop, made clear that, oh, no,

238
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,840
Speaker 2: they had no interaction whatsoever, which was expected. When they

239
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,640
Speaker 2: learned that Jane had died, they expressed some regret for

240
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 2: her death, but they also made clear that the reason

241
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 2: that she had left, and this is debatable actually, but

242
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,960
Speaker 2: they said the reason she had left was that she

243
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 2: was a dirty girl and left in consequence which the

244
00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,160
Speaker 2: household expected the servant to clean house, but the household

245
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,120
Speaker 2: also expected the servant to be clean herself. She would

246
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 2: work in an apron and if somebody, if a visitor

247
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 2: came to the door, she was supposed to answer, but

248
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 2: she had to whip off her dirty apron, put on

249
00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 2: a clean one go answer the door. That kind of

250
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,400
Speaker 2: a thing right from the get go, once they became

251
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,440
Speaker 2: aware that she had died. Really, the first thing, it

252
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,320
Speaker 2: was Ebenezer Pook who made this point about her dirtiness,

253
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 2: but then again so did Edmund later on. That was

254
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 2: a serious problem with her as far as they were concerned,

255
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,960
Speaker 2: and a reason for letting her go. Whether they actually

256
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 2: did let her go is or whether she left herself

257
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,840
Speaker 2: is at that point anyway, it is an open question.

258
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,120
Speaker 1: Tell me what leads up to the discovery of her body,

259
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,880
Speaker 1: and then I know she's unidentified for a few days,

260
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 1: So what happens leading up to this?

261
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 2: Maybe I should talk about her body being found and

262
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 2: because that actually it's for a while, there's nothing, there's

263
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,840
Speaker 2: no evidence as to what happened before or she was

264
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 2: on this country road again, about three miles south of Greenwich,

265
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 2: on Kidbrook Lane, which is near the town of Eltham,

266
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 2: And it was a direct road that she was found on,

267
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 2: but a very rutty, muddy road and not really used

268
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 2: by vehicles at all. It was actually used more as

269
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 2: a kind of lover's lane for everybody around. But certainly

270
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 2: the people in Greenwich could find more space there, could

271
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:29,200
Speaker 2: find more they could be alone there more. It was

272
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 2: a kind of lonely place right outside this sort of

273
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:37,920
Speaker 2: busy metropolis, and Jane was found there on the morning

274
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,440
Speaker 2: of April twenty sixth. She was found by a policeman

275
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,160
Speaker 2: on his beat whose beat took him down Kidbrook Lane.

276
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: He had apparently passed her before, but he was walking

277
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,000
Speaker 2: in the dark and just apparently just walked right by her.

278
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,400
Speaker 2: It was just getting light when he found her, and

279
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 2: he thought. He testified later that he thought basically that

280
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: she had just been dumped there by a lover, not

281
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,159
Speaker 2: a very gallant lover, until he saw her face, because

282
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,720
Speaker 2: she was not dead. She was apparently going in and

283
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,479
Speaker 2: out of consciousness, but she did try to get up.

284
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,639
Speaker 2: She tried to push herself up on her hands and

285
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 2: turned her face to him, and then he saw her

286
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 2: face had been horribly battered. There was sort of parts

287
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,400
Speaker 2: of the temporal blown just bashed out whoever had attacked

288
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:33,160
Speaker 2: or had clearly gone after her face repeatedly. He suddenly

289
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 2: realized that obviously she had been seriously attacked. He ran

290
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 2: down to get help. He found his sergeant actually fairly

291
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,359
Speaker 2: close by. They ran back, took her to a doctor

292
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,960
Speaker 2: in the nearest town, who basically realized he couldn't do

293
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,000
Speaker 2: anything for her and sent her a guy's hospital, which

294
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,479
Speaker 2: is in southern There. A doctor looked her over, also

295
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: realized that there wasn't much he could do but try

296
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,440
Speaker 2: to make her comfortable, and that's where she was for

297
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:08,320
Speaker 2: five days unidentified. Another maid actually was found very close

298
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,359
Speaker 2: to Jane the same day in a pond, dead, and

299
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: there was a sense that maybe there was a serial

300
00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:18,399
Speaker 2: killer on the loose, preying upon servants, because she was

301
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,959
Speaker 2: a servant too. But there was an inquest, a very

302
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,720
Speaker 2: quick inquest that pretty clearly established that she was a suicide.

303
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,360
Speaker 2: So that wasn't It was the one. But nobody knew

304
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 2: who she was until the night of April thirtieth, which

305
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 2: was the night she died. She died in the hospital.

306
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,280
Speaker 2: Her last words to the policeman on the beat, apparently

307
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 2: before she fell into the mud again unconscious or let

308
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,679
Speaker 2: me die, Let me die. She never spoke, according to

309
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:48,880
Speaker 2: the doctor who set a watch over her to see

310
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,439
Speaker 2: if she did wake up and speak and name her killer.

311
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 2: She didn't, according Todn't never spoke again. Anyway. She died

312
00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:01,880
Speaker 2: on the evening of April thirtieth, and at that very

313
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:06,679
Speaker 2: moment that times match right up. In Deptford, her uncle

314
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 2: William Trott, was reading a weekly magazine, Sunday newspaper, and

315
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: it was an article that was filled with all kinds

316
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,080
Speaker 2: of speculation about who this person was, but it also

317
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,240
Speaker 2: had the police description of him that had been posted

318
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 2: apparently two thousand places throughout London. He had never seen

319
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,679
Speaker 2: this until then, and he read the description of her

320
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 2: in the clothes that she was wearing, and he knew

321
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 2: immediately it was his niece Jane. The clothes match perfectly.

322
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,720
Speaker 2: They even had a bit of the lace that was

323
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 2: on her clothes, a bit extra lace, and they brought

324
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,960
Speaker 2: it into the police station to identify her with. They

325
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 2: actually did. He and his wife went to the police

326
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,959
Speaker 2: station that night and they actually asked them to come

327
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,439
Speaker 2: back the next morning to the hospital in Southern to

328
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 2: identify her, and they did, and then they knew it

329
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 2: was Jane Cluson. And that was on May first. That

330
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: was a busy and that's where we learned what had

331
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 2: led up to this, and that's where we learned who

332
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 2: the prime suspect was too, because he was arrested on

333
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 2: that day. A lot happened on May first, and that

334
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: takes us to what we heard about Jane in the

335
00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 2: days before her attack and her death. We heard a lot. Actually,

336
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,639
Speaker 2: there were four witnesses, four women who had information about

337
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,520
Speaker 2: Jane that pointed too And now we get to the

338
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 2: alleged murderer, Edmund Pook, the son the youngest son of

339
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 2: her employer. We learned too, actually I should point this out.

340
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 2: When she died, they did a post mortem on her

341
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 2: and realized that she was two months pregnant. A lot

342
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 2: of what we heard ties in with her possible awareness

343
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 2: that she was pregnant, because her cousin, Charlotte Trott, and

344
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 2: the person that she was staying with when she left

345
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: her employer both had a story to tell about what

346
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 2: they had learned from her. Her cousin said that three

347
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 2: days before, actually two days before Jane disappeared, she had

348
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 2: told her that Edmund had proposed marriage to her. He

349
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 2: had proposed to her and said something about they were

350
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: going to travel, they were going to go. Don't tell anybody,

351
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 2: We're going to go to this christening, We're going to

352
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 2: get married. Everything. Basically, Jane was realizing her dream. As

353
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: far as Edmund went. She did not tell anybody that

354
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: she was pregnant at that time, but the person that

355
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: she was staying with, a girl, young woman by the

356
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: name of Emily Woolidge. Jane didn't tell her what Edmund

357
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: had said, but Emily Wooldge got a letter addressed to

358
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: Jane at her wherever they were staying. That she saw Jane,

359
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: who was actually fairly miserable at that until that moment

360
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: read her mood changed completely. She became overjoyed. But she

361
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: destroyed the letter pretty much right away and wrote something back.

362
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 2: She had left the house a few weeks into her pregnancy.

363
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: There's a sense that at least possibly that she left

364
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: the house because she had learned of her pregnancy, and

365
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: possibly the family had learned of her pregnancy as well.

366
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 2: But that letter became a real bone of contention in

367
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 2: the legal proceedings that followed because nobody saw what was

368
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 2: in that letter. Whatever was made her very happy, and

369
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: soon afterwards she was telling her cousin that she was,

370
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, she was realizing this great happiness. She did

371
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: say that when she marries Edmund, she's never going to

372
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 2: talk to his mother again because of what had happened

373
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 2: or what her mother had said to her. But then

374
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: she kind of realized, well, maybe Edmund's older brother had

375
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: married a working class girl and her mother kind of

376
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: came around and accepted her in the end, and Jane thought,

377
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: maybe she'll do that with me. One more witness who

378
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: came forward was actually a woman named Fanny Hamilton, who

379
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 2: was the landlady in the place that Jane was staying,

380
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: who actually the night that Jane disappeared, she walked with

381
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: Jane over to Deptford. Jane was taking sort of her

382
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: first step to meet Edmund, and she didn't say anything

383
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 2: to Fanny Hamilton until pretty much the moment she was leaving,

384
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: and then she said, I'm meeting Edmund and pretty much

385
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 2: repeated the same things that she had said to her cousin.

386
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 2: So we have two witnesses who told the police on

387
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 2: the same day that Jane said she was going to

388
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: meet Edmund or actually go with Edmund to wherever he

389
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 2: wanted to go to. That was Fanny Hamilton was the

390
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 2: last woman who saw Jane alive, last person who saw

391
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 2: Jane alive.

392
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: What here is indisputable. She's pregnant, but we don't know

393
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: if he's the father. We're assuming it's Edmund though right well,

394
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: actually she.

395
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 2: Never told anybody that she was pregnant. That's one secret

396
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: that she kept to herself. But there is a sense

397
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 2: that it was right that she was marrying Edmund. I'm

398
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 2: guessing that he would have known in this situation that

399
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: she was pregnant, because there was this sort of two

400
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: week period where she left the house. There was a

401
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: sense that there was an explosion of some kind, that

402
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 2: he was no longer apparently a part of his life,

403
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: and that suddenly she showed herself to be very upset

404
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 2: to both Emily Wooldage, where she was staying, and to

405
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 2: her cousin Charlotte, that basically things had gone completely wrong.

406
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it was basically her worst nightmare had happened.

407
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: She was pregnant, she was out of the house, and

408
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: then suddenly, and it seems at this moment that this

409
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 2: letter came, everything had turned out right. My guess is

410
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: that Edmund was the father, although obviously, given the at

411
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: least the scientific knowledge at the time, there was no

412
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: way of establishing that.

413
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: So to me, I'm actually working on a book that

414
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: feels very similar in some ways. It's it's set in

415
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties in New England, and in my case,

416
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: the pregnant woman receives a letter that made her very

417
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: happy and it says meet me at a certain place.

418
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: Is that what we think might have happened in this

419
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: case Lover's Lane.

420
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened. And that's exactly the thinking of

421
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: not just these women, but also of the police. Edmund

422
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: immediately became the prime suspect when they heard this.

423
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: Now tell me Edmunds and the whole Poop family's side

424
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: of this. Is he going to say, not only did

425
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: I not get her pregnant, not only did I ever, never,

426
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: forever proposed to this woman. We weren't even in the

427
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: same room together because it wouldn't have been appropriate because

428
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: of our stations. I mean, was this a total denial

429
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: of any kind of anything.

430
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 2: That's exactly what happened, and there it was one defense

431
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: the family gave right away. The police came to his

432
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: house after hearing this evidence, and they wanted to talk

433
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 2: to his father first, and they did. Ebenezer Pook, the

434
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: police superintendent for that district of England, was actually he

435
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: knew Ebenezer Pook. I don't know if they were friends

436
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: or not, but he did know him and he wanted

437
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: to It seems pretty clear that they wanted to break

438
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 2: it to him first, to try to get his assistance

439
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 2: in getting his son to cooperate with the police and

440
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: say what happened. It backfired spectacularly. He immediately got deeply defensive,

441
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 2: said it couldn't be my son repeated this. You know,

442
00:26:54,760 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: they didn't really know each other. And also Edmund was epileptic,

443
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 2: and there was this sense that at least the family

444
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: claimed that they watched him all the time to make

445
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: sure that he didn't hurt himself have an epileptic attack.

446
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 2: If they said that if he was too long in

447
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: his room without their hearing from him, they would go

448
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 2: up and check on him, and that he didn't go out,

449
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: that he couldn't have been at Kidbrook Lane. That they

450
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: didn't quite give him an alibi, but they basically said

451
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: it was physically impossible for him to go that far,

452
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: which as the facts came out, turned out to be

453
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: not at all true, but does say something about their

454
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 2: absolute defensiveness. He was also known to have another girlfriend, actually,

455
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: in some ways two other girlfriends won his cousin and

456
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: one this girl that kind provided him with a kind

457
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: of an alibi because he said he was in Lewisham,

458
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: which is a town sort of to the west of Elton,

459
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: uh so the west of Kidbrookly for those two hours

460
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: that nobody could count for his time, but he didn't

461
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: visit this girlfriend he actually went to a bridge outside

462
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: of our house and watched the house for an hour.

463
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: And I've said nobody saw me. Said he remembers seeing

464
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: somebody that he knew, but wasn't seen by anybody. And

465
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 2: he was there. He never went into the house as

466
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 2: far as he knew. The girlfriend that day didn't see him,

467
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: and then he came home.

468
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: Not a great alibi, no kind of a creepy, A

469
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: creepy alibi too.

470
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 2: Well, it gets creepier because he actually, uh he he

471
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: had a way of communicating with this young woman in

472
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: a way that her family wouldn't realize, and that was

473
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: to use a whistle. It was called a dog whistle,

474
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: but it's not the kind of silent dog whistle that

475
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: we think of now, which I found out was invented

476
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: three years later by Charles Darwin's cousin. But that's that's

477
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: another They found a dog whistle, uh in the mud

478
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: where Jane Cluson was and Edmund immediately once that came

479
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 2: out in a magistrate's hearing, he wrote to his brother saying,

480
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: can you look in my drawer for dog whistles, which

481
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: might have been trying to kind of push his brother

482
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: to find a dog whistle in this drawer, and his

483
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: brother came up with two, a metal one and an ivoryone.

484
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: The dog whistle became evidence in the trial itself.

485
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a quick question. I want to

486
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: go back to the epilepsy bit of this, because in

487
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds, that would have been considered a

488
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: mental illness, at least based on my research. Did that

489
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: come up, because that seems like that could work against him.

490
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: I've come across that too, and interestingly enough, in this

491
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: household anyway, they didn't seem to have this. It is

492
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: true that it was off. I mean, people were institutionalized

493
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: for epilepsy.

494
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: Into the nineteen hundreds too, and then America also.

495
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, interestingly here it really didn't become an issue. And

496
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: also they didn't seem to be They seemed to have

497
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: no compunction about keeping it secret too, like this, you know,

498
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: shame that he had this illness. It seemed to be

499
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: they seemed to have sort of learned to live with it.

500
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 2: But I will say that the way that they said

501
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: they learned to live with it was by being overprotective

502
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: of him, turns out really not to be the case.

503
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: He pretty much was able to get around wherever he wanted,

504
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: whenever he wanted, so.

505
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: So he is a terrible alibi and maybe admitting to

506
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: something that potentially tied him to you know, where Jane's

507
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: body was dumped. Were they able to collect any other

508
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: physical evidence? I know that was probably limited in the

509
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds.

510
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 2: It was a very very important piece of evidence too,

511
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 2: which really came very very close to cracking the case

512
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 2: and kind of a very very close but didn't quite

513
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: make it, kind of creating an air tight case. They

514
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: found the murder weapon. They found it one day after

515
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 2: they found Jane. It was a hammer. It was called

516
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: a plasterer's hammer, a hammerhead on one side and an

517
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: axe on the other side to kind of chop laize

518
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: and take out plaster. And it was a very well

519
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: marked It had the trademark on it was a J.

520
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: Sorby number two hammer. And when the police had that,

521
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: they actually had they didn't know who Jade was at

522
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: the time, but they did have a means to find

523
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: out to track down the killer even before they were

524
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: aware of who she was. And that's because they were

525
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: able to find out to go to the manufacturer and

526
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: find out all the ironmongers hardware stores where j. Sorby

527
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 2: hammers were sold, and in that part of London there

528
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: was only one place it was. It was a store

529
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: in Deptford where they sold this hammer. And before they

530
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: actually got that information, they fanned out and went to

531
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 2: all the ironmongers. They covered most of them by the

532
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: time they actually got that information. They went to that one.

533
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: They asked the sh shopkeeper, he and his wife, a

534
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: man the shop, if they could find, you know, look

535
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: at their book. They had a list, and they found

536
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 2: that there was a hammer that they had sold the

537
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: friday before, except neither of them could remember who bought it,

538
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: neither a zero ability to identify him. But very interestingly,

539
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: an ironmonger down the street did come forward to the

540
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: police and told them there was a person who came

541
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 2: to my shop. I can identify him as Edmund Pook,

542
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: or at least they did. When they were showing me.

543
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 2: He said I could identify him, and when they allowed

544
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: him to he was able to identify Pook. He said

545
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: he was doing something for some kind of amateur theatricals

546
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: and he needed this prop for a play, something like

547
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 2: a little axe. And they found a kitchen tool of

548
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 2: some kind that he said was too expensive and too small.

549
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: It didn't work, and so he actually walked out of

550
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 2: the store with Edmund Pook pointed to the iron marker

551
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: just a few doors down, which was the Thomases, the

552
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: place where he actually ended up buying it, and said,

553
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: you can get one there, and he walked to it,

554
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: and he watched him go to the shop, right to

555
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: the doorway of the shop, and that was it. And

556
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: so he could identify Edmund Pook as somebody in Deptford.

557
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: Actually he said it was just one night before the

558
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 2: night before the murder, Edmund Pook came to him. Now

559
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: the police were wary of his story because they saw

560
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: that the Thomases had sold him that hammer three nights before.

561
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until another week or two had passed

562
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: that the Thomases looked at their book again and realized

563
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: they had sold two Jsorb hammers. And for a while

564
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: this guy, his name was Sparshat, his testimony was completely discredited.

565
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: It became extremely important at the end, and yet it

566
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 2: was never given the kind of weight that I think

567
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: it should have been given.

568
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: Now, it sounds like all of your witnesses in this case,

569
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: which they are saying is all hearsay or being dismissed.

570
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: These are all members of the lower class, I'm assuming.

571
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: Yes, although the proprietors of an iron manga's shop might

572
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 2: inhabit kind of a space between the two. But yes,

573
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: there still was. And actually, you know, I pointed out

574
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 2: that this story is a lot about sort of class

575
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: relationships just on that household level, it's also about class

576
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: relationships on a community level, because a lot of the

577
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 2: witnesses were working class, most of the important ones. There

578
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: are other ones that actually said that they had seen

579
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: somebody at the site before the murder, and one of

580
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 2: them said he could identify Edmund Pook and actually did,

581
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: although his identification involved he said, I only saw him

582
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: from the back. And when they did the identification, they had,

583
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: you know, they had no one way, you know, glass

584
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 2: or anything like that. They told people to go in

585
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: there and put their hand on the person that they identified,

586
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: which the Thomas is the one that sold the hammer.

587
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 2: Were told to do that. Missus Thomas fainted after she

588
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: had walked out. She's terrified. But this guy said he could,

589
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: but only from the back. So the police got a

590
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 2: line of men told him to turn their backs. He

591
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: went and he touched the back of Edmund Pook, and

592
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: you can imagine what is in book's lawyers and lawyer

593
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: did with that identification. So anyway, there was a lot

594
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: of working classes and there was a kind of sense,

595
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 2: I think as the trial went on that Jane Cluson

596
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: was not getting justice, and there was a lot of

597
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: how do I say, acting out along those lines, a

598
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: kind of community uprising in all kinds of ways. That

599
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: Jane's funeral after the verdict was given, and actually also

600
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 2: in this kind of pilgrimage to the place where Jane

601
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: had died, thousands and thousands of people did that, generally

602
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: working class, and actually on one day one newspaper reported

603
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: it was the third most popular, if that's the right word,

604
00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: London attraction Jane Cluson's.

605
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: So, you know, these murders, in my experience too, because

606
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 1: I love the eighteen hundreds, are so polarizing. How were

607
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: Edmund and Jane kind of described, how were they framed

608
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: in the start with the media, first, what was this

609
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: a poor servant girl has been taken advantage of by

610
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: a rich guy and then he murders her. Or was

611
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: there more sympathy toward Edmund Pook in his family.

612
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: There was a lot more sympathy towards Edmund Pook, especially

613
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: as the case went on. When you really do get

614
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: the sense. Part of the problem that the police had

615
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 2: is that they arrested Edmund Pook on the day they

616
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: found out about all of this stuff, a lot of it.

617
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: Here say. They also found some blood on his clothing,

618
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 2: and that was actually what did it for them. They said, Okay,

619
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: we found blood, let's let's arrest him. There was some

620
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: question as to whether it was blood. It came out

621
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: later and they really didn't have a case. And here

622
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 2: they are. They arrested him the day he became a suspect,

623
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: and then they had to make their case in the courtroom,

624
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: which meant that the lawyers the Pooks, ran out and

625
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: hired a guy named hen This is a complete coincidence.

626
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: His name was Henry Pook. Strangely enough, there are they're

627
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 2: turned to ten. There are three Pooks that are completely

628
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 2: unrelated that show up in this story. But Henry Pook

629
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: was a local lawyer. I think a bit of a

630
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: hack basically, But boy was he was He a great

631
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: advocate for them as the case went on, because what

632
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: he could do is he could bluster he could make

633
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: a lot of noise, He could tear down witnesses. He

634
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 2: could basically as the police were trying to make a case,

635
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 2: he could do his best to break it down. And

636
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: he did that all in public, and the newspapers reported

637
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: on it pretty much word for word as far as

638
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: the testimony goes. Very early on Edmund Pook in the

639
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: press anyway, was given very much the benefit of the doubt.

640
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: You know, it is until proven guilty. But there wasn't

641
00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: really that sense. It was more sort of wait and

642
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: let's see if they can pull this off, because right

643
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: from the start the evidence that the police were were

644
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 2: sort of building up were being torn down and pulled

645
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 2: apart by the Pook's lawyer.

646
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: What is Pook's attorney's counter argument here, that these lower

647
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: class police officers were the prosecutors, whoever crown prosecutor, targeting

648
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: this wealthier family, this middle class family, and that this

649
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: is sort of reverse class bias.

650
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: When it actually got to a criminal court. The way

651
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: I put it, I think in the book is that

652
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: this case sort of shows the law in all its variety,

653
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: if not all of its majesty, because there was it

654
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 2: got awfully messy in pretty much every form, but there

655
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: was an inquest, There was a magistrate's hearing that actually

656
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: they were all told. There were nine different meetings of

657
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: those two bodies at both Edmund Pook was committed for

658
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 2: trial and then he went to trial at the Old Bailey.

659
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 2: By then, to my mind, it was a travesty of

660
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: a trial, and one reason was that the right from

661
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 2: the start the judge, the Chief Justice, William Bowl, he

662
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: had it in for the police. They couldn't do anything right.

663
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 2: They would say, you know, they would make a claim

664
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 2: and he would tell them how badly they had stated

665
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 2: that claim. All of their evidence was basically trash, and

666
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: there was this sense that the police had concocted this

667
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: to get Edmund Pook. By the end of the trial

668
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: there was this real sense that Edmund Pook was the

669
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: victim of the police and Jane Cluson had kind of

670
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: been put aside. There was no hostility about Jane. There

671
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: was a lot of hostility towards Edmund outside the courtroom,

672
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: largely working class. He was put in jail about a

673
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: thirty minute train ride. It was still in Kent, which

674
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: is the county that Greenwich is in, but pretty much

675
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: on the coast way when he went to magistrates hearing

676
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: to take the train to London back to Greenwich for

677
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 2: the hearing, and at every station there would be crowds

678
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: of people there jeering, you know, so he had to

679
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 2: deal with that. So there was throughout the trial. Before

680
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: the trial, there was a real class divide in terms of,

681
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 2: you know, who's the victim here and how is justice

682
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 2: going to be served here? And in the press largely

683
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: and certainly in the courtroom. Edmund Pook got the again

684
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt.

685
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: Did anyone else have a theory about who might have

686
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: done this had it not been Edmund Pook?

687
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: There were some theories. One of the things that Jane's

688
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: cousin Charlotte had said was that Edmund. Jane said that

689
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 2: Edmund had given her a lockett, and the police actually

690
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: found a lockett in Jane's possession on her body, but

691
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: actually an employee. Remember, Edmund Ebenezer Pook kept a printership.

692
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: He had a lot more employees working there than he

693
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 2: did in the house. Jane was the only one there,

694
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: but he had a number of them, and there was

695
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: a former employee of his who came forward. He was

696
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 2: a thirty year old married guy and said, I actually

697
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 2: I gave Jane the locket, and they actually the police

698
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: took him to the jeweler where he bought it, and

699
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 2: the jeweler said, yes, it was him that bought it.

700
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: But there was never actually any serious sense that he

701
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: was really the police really never held him as a suspect.

702
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: Interestingly enough, the one person that did sort of suggest

703
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: a possible other killer of Jane was Edmund Pook himself.

704
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 2: He claimed that, actually, when I was walking out soon

705
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 2: before the murder, I saw Jane with a quote unquote swell,

706
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 2: suggesting some kind of that she had a follower. He

707
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: was the only one who made that claim. If you

708
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: can call that a lead, that was a lead that

709
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 2: went nowhere.

710
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: What's a swell?

711
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: A swell is a sort of fast gentleman, a playboy. Okay.

712
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: Basically he was trying to pick her up.

713
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: Okay, So how do we end up with this trial?

714
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: This is a jury trial.

715
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: I'm assuming it was a jury trial.

716
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I will tell you. You know, my first

717
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 1: book was set in nineteen fifty two London at the

718
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: Old Bailey, and my experience has always been that if

719
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: the judge is biased, then the jury instructions are typically terrible,

720
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: and it's pretty much like, if you have even one

721
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: tin eed doubt, you should have quit. This person was

722
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: this judge who was already anti police, kind of along

723
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: that train of thought.

724
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: He absolutely was. On the last day of the trial

725
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: was a four day trial. On the last of the

726
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 2: trial he spent six hours with the jury and most

727
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: of it was just absolutely destroying the prosecution. Interestingly, the

728
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: lead prosecutor was one of the most famous lawyers of

729
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: the time. He actually became the Chief Justice of England

730
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: in the end. His name was John Duke Coleridge. He

731
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: was the grand nephew of Samuel Taylor Coleridge. And he

732
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: was great, but not in his trial. He was awful

733
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: in this trial. He knew it. I blame him partially

734
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 2: for the result of the trial, which no surprise now,

735
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,320
Speaker 2: was a complete acquittal for Edmund Pook, because it seemed

736
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: like he just gave up. I mean, there was hearsay.

737
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: When you think about it, I mean, it always seems

738
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: people seem to think, well, that's excluded because it's hearsay.

739
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: Not necessarily, and there were reasons that hearsay could be included,

740
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 2: one based upon the importance if the importance of the

741
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: evidence is greater than the prejudicial aspect of it, then

742
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 2: it should be included. And also if this evidence said

743
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 2: it's true, it should be included. And the fact that

744
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: there were two women who gave the same story, who

745
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 2: almost certainly didn't even know each other, never met about

746
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 2: Jane's going to meet Edmund that night, that suggests that

747
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 2: hearsay evidence was brought up and immediately shot down by

748
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: the judge. He said that the fact that she said

749
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: she was going to see em and I see nothing.

750
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: I don't see how that has anything to do with

751
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 2: the murder. Was a trial where the important evidence was

752
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 2: omitted and any evidence that could be credible was discredited

753
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: by the judges himself.

754
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: But the most credible evidence is these witness statements. Right,

755
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: there's no actual forensic tying. Even the dog whistle. They

756
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: couldn't tie the weapon. They couldn't tie directly.

757
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: But boy it came close. Yeah, if they trusted Sparshot,

758
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: they knew that he was in Deptford buying a weapon

759
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: or in the market for a weapon the night before

760
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: she was killed, an axe he particularly asked for. And

761
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 2: I should point out there were other witnesses that came forward,

762
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: one that actually delayed the trial because the police said, oh,

763
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 2: this is an important witness who could have actually made

764
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: the link into the store. And that's what he did.

765
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: He came forward and did that. He actually said he

766
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: had met Edmund. He knew him from Edmund did some

767
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: theatricals too, and he was a would be music hall

768
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 2: singer in some Sidonum pub But he said he met Edmund.

769
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: They had a chat and then outside the store and

770
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 2: then he saw ed and walk into the store. They

771
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 2: saw the missus Thomas grab the hammer from the window

772
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: where it was hanging and bring it in and apparently

773
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: sell it to Edmund, putting Edmund in the store when

774
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 2: the hammer was sold. The only problem, and it was

775
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: a big one, is this guy was a complete liar,

776
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,720
Speaker 2: and he came forward. He delayed the trial. The police

777
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: were worried about his testimony and he was and rightfully so.

778
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: He was demolished as a witness, and that actually made

779
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: things worse. It made spar shots. You know, very close

780
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: identification of Evan as the one who bought the weapon

781
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: seemed weak. Basically, you put in one perjurer into the

782
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 2: mix and it makes everybody look awful and that's what

783
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 2: happened here if they needed any more to find him

784
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: not guilty.

785
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: So he's acquitted. And I don't want to simplify this,

786
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: but is it just the argument? And your thought is

787
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,720
Speaker 1: that if Edmund were guilty, that he killed her because

788
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: she was going to reveal the pregnancy and his parents

789
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,879
Speaker 1: would have flipped out. Is that kind of what the

790
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: motive would have been.

791
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 2: It would certainly suggest a motive, and it certainly if

792
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: any of the evidence was true. And I, for one,

793
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: in the book make a case that this hearsay evidence

794
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: is more valued than most people would think if they

795
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,959
Speaker 2: just said, Okay, it's hearsay evidence. It's a particular kind

796
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: of hearsay, and it corroborates itself without collusion, and it

797
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 2: strongly suggests that they were telling the truth, and that Jane,

798
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 2: as far as she knew, was telling the truth when

799
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: she said that Edmund was going to meet her and

800
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 2: marry her, etc. Etc. I should point out too, that

801
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 2: after the criminal trial, the poops went into attack mode,

802
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 2: basically on everybody who had anything to do with this,

803
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: anybody who said anything about Edmund being guilty anyway, or

804
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: possibly anybody. They started suing, and they were lawsuits which really,

805
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: actually I'd have to go back and count how many

806
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: there were. There was somebody in the courtroom who one

807
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 2: of the few who thought that Judge Bouville was horrendous,

808
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: that the trial was a travesty, and he wrote a

809
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: pamphlet about that. They sued his publisher right away. They

810
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: sued the person who had a newsagent's shop right up

811
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: from the Pooks for selling that right away. It was

812
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: first published in a paper when they did these lawsuits,

813
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: and then when he publishes a pamphlet they finally sued him.

814
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: But the thing is, when they sued him, he got

815
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: at a great a lawyer, George Lewis, who was actually

816
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 2: became a solicitor to the Prince of Wales. He was

817
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: top level and he for what in the civil trials

818
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: that followed. They had to put Edmund on the stand

819
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 2: to establish that a libel was made, and Edmund had

820
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: to deny that he killed Jane Clusen and then be

821
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: cross examined, and that's one thing they couldn't do in

822
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: the criminal trial, and it's one thing they couldn't do

823
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 2: in the earlier trials. So Newton Crossland was the guy

824
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 2: who wrote this pamphlet. He and his lawyer got Edmund

825
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 2: on the stand and they put him through a ringer,

826
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 2: and they asked him a lot about the blood evidence,

827
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 2: which we haven't talked about. But the blood evidence is

828
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,320
Speaker 2: actually very significant. It's eighteen seventy one. They didn't know

829
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: about blood types. They didn't even know exactly if they

830
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 2: found a blood stain, whether and they couldn't find out

831
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: whether it was an animal stain in a blood or

832
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: human blood. They could tell that it was mammalian blood.

833
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: That's as close as they could get. But there was

834
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: blood found on Edmund's clothes. That's the reason the police

835
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 2: arrested him for the most part, and to my mind,

836
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: it was very interesting blood because it was clear that

837
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: Judge Boval, again who could find every reason to sort

838
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: of dismiss the police evidence, he tried to dismiss the

839
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 2: blood evidence too. But the reason he gave is that

840
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: it's so small, not in terms of how much there was,

841
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,760
Speaker 2: although there wasn't much, but in terms of the size

842
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: of the blood drops. He said there were the size

843
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: of pinpricks. Now that suggests blood spatter, not dripping blood.

844
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: Edmund gave us an excuse the reason for any blood

845
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: that he had the fact that he had an epileptic

846
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: attack and bled all over his clothes. He actually bled.

847
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 2: The blood showed up on his right hand shirt collar

848
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 2: and on the very bottoms of his trousers, actually on

849
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 2: the right side trousers, not the left side a leg.

850
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 2: I will say that they didn't They couldn't make much

851
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 2: of that at the time, But boy, I think that

852
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,399
Speaker 2: modern experts in blood spatter could make a whole lot

853
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 2: of it. And actually one attorney did in one of

854
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 2: the early magistrates trials, pointed out that if you have

855
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: blood on your right hand sleeve and on your right

856
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 2: hand pants leg, that would be exactly the position which

857
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 2: somebody would be in if they were at Kidbrook Lane,

858
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: right handed with an axe, a small axe, a hand axe,

859
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 2: basically mutilating Jane the way that she was mutilated. It's

860
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: a convincing argument using blood spatter evidence. It wasn't one

861
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 2: that anybody really came up with in the trial. It

862
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: never really got that far.

863
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: You know, I would say six months ago, I would

864
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: tell you, man, she was beaten all over her face,

865
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: her head. That's a lot of blood. There would have

866
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: been a lot of blood on him. But then when

867
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: I talked to Paul Holes, you know, he's my co

868
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: host on Buried Bones. He's a forensic investigator, and when

869
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: I present that argument to him, he said, you would

870
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: be surprised about the minimal amount of blood that gets

871
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: on the perpetrator. Even if you're hitting you know, a

872
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: blood vessel or an artery in the head and the

873
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: blood goes everywhere. He said, it's just not like you're

874
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 1: covered in blood. It can be a tiny spray. So

875
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 1: that really tallies with what you were saying that because

876
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: at first I thought, well, it would be all over him,

877
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: but Paul really says it can be pretty clean.

878
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 2: I think he's right. And actually that is something that

879
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 2: came up in testimony when they had a medical expert,

880
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 2: and good one too. He was a surgeon at London

881
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: Hospital and he did the blood analysis. He was the

882
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 2: one that found out that it was actually blood. That's

883
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 2: as far as he could go with it. But he

884
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: was asked when he was on the stand at the

885
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 2: magistrates hearing, why not bore blood? And he made a

886
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 2: similar claim that basically, if this artery is severed, it

887
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: contracts and doesn't bleed. Deeply said yeah, so that was

888
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: they made a pretty good accounting for the possible lack

889
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 2: of blood. But the other thing actually that as far

890
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 2: as blood evidence goes, when the police looked through all

891
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: of his clothes, they found blood on the shirt, they

892
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: found blood on the trousers, they found zero blood on

893
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: the coat. That made no sense because Edmund Pook had

894
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: said he bled all over himself when he had an

895
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: epileptic attack, and he also, because of questioning later on,

896
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 2: said even though he was in his house, in his

897
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: living room, I think he was dressed in his outdoor clothes.

898
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 2: The fact that there was no blood at all on

899
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: the coat, on any of his coats because they actually

900
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 2: asked his father if they could go to his room

901
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:09,479
Speaker 2: and look through all of his coats, and they asked

902
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 2: him to give the coat he was wearing that night

903
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: no blood. That strongly suggests that if he actually did

904
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: get blood on the coat, even if it was through epilepsy,

905
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: an epileptic attack and bleeding, that that coat was no

906
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 2: longer in the house. It strongly suggests that he disposed

907
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: of that evidence anyway.

908
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: So he goes on and lives his life. Where does

909
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: Edmund Poot go after all of this and of the

910
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,959
Speaker 1: civil lawsuits and everything. When all of this is really

911
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,720
Speaker 1: wrapped up and people move on, what ends up happening

912
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: ultimately with this twenty year old.

913
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: After the trial he actually did, there was a huge again,

914
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 2: popular upheaval. There were five days of something that I

915
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:49,479
Speaker 2: don't know if you've heard the term rough music. Yeah,

916
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: rough music. Yeah, there were five days of rough basically

917
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: a popular resentment expressed against the Pook family. They gathered

918
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: in by thousands, five days in front of the Pook house.

919
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: They didn't the Pooks wanted to sue the police for

920
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: this too, because they couldn't clear this group. But this

921
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 2: group was They weren't rioters, They weren't throwing rocks at

922
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 2: the windows. They weren't. They did. They did come upon

923
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: Henry Pook, the lawyer, and kind of gave him a

924
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,359
Speaker 2: kind of a It didn't really hurt him, but they

925
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 2: chased him into a pub and et cetera. But they

926
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 2: were following an old folk tradition which was away the

927
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: community policed itself, which was if there is somebody who

928
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,360
Speaker 2: is working against our norms, basically, we're gonna let them know.

929
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: We're gonna let them know as loudly as possible, and

930
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: they did and it kind of worked. Edmund Pook actually

931
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: decamped to another town kind of secretly. I found one

932
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 2: reference in the newspaper that it cleared that he had

933
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 2: slipped away into sort of deeper Kent actually was being

934
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 2: confirmed in the church. That's how I found out in

935
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: this town at Herton Bay. But he disappeared then then

936
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: he came back. It was kind of he stayed with

937
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 2: the printers, you know, his father's business. His father died,

938
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: his mother took over. He did get married, moved away

939
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 2: to Jersey in the end of the Island of Jersey,

940
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 2: had a son, and his son died when he was

941
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 2: a year and a half old, and then his wife died,

942
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: and then he moved back to live near Greenwich and

943
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: live near his brother's daughter. And he died when he

944
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,240
Speaker 2: was seventy years old. And nothing about, no, no confession

945
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 2: from him.

946
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: Did he marry within his station as far as.

947
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 2: You know, as far as I know, Yes.

948
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: So what is if we leave things in the hands

949
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: of Jane, what is the lesson learned from this?

950
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: One lesson is the absolute power of community. And it's

951
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: something that we haven't talked about much, but we've touched

952
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 2: on that. Right from the get go, there was this

953
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: sense that Jane meant. They may not have known her,

954
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: they may have known as little about her really in

955
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: some ways as we do now, but that didn't matter.

956
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: They knew that she was one of them. They knew

957
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 2: that she had worked hard her whole life, and that

958
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: she probably deserved more. She certainly deserved more. On the

959
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 2: night that she died, she had faced hell, basically whatever

960
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: happened to her. And right from that moment, basically, the

961
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: pilgrimage to that place where she was murdered began. People

962
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 2: began going, and the numbers got greater and greater and greater,

963
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 2: and they also, it became clear, had a need a

964
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 2: desire to take a souvenir with them. They pretty much

965
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: tore up the landscape, leaving the blood. Somebody put up

966
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 2: an altar once that was taken as a souvenir. But

967
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 2: the papers, as you might expect, saw this as some

968
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 2: kind of a joke or some kind of a travesty

969
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 2: or show the basically how superstitious they are and how

970
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,920
Speaker 2: sort of hungry they are for gore, you know, the

971
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 2: sensational aspit. I think it became very clear that they

972
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 2: weren't there for that at least that wasn't the big

973
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 2: part of it. That they were there because she meant

974
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 2: something to them. And then when her funeral came, it

975
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: was one of the biggest funerals in She went from

976
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: Deptford to brockoly and Ladywell Cemetery, thousands of people lying

977
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 2: in the street to see her coffin. It was a

978
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 2: terrible rainy day too, and they showed their appreciation for

979
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 2: her then. And then there's that rough music too. For

980
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 2: five days there was this sense that they weren't going

981
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: to let this travesy pass. They were going to make

982
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 2: clear that Edmund Pook, in their mind number one, was

983
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 2: guilty and that Jane had not gotten the justice that

984
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 2: she deserved. Greenwich irrupted because of this murder into some

985
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: kind of a civil war, maybe a kind of civil

986
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 2: Cold war, although it got hot every once in a while.

987
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,720
Speaker 2: But it really shows that if the justice system failed,

988
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 2: and I think it did in this case, that the

989
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,959
Speaker 2: community they stepped in and they would let people forget

990
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: about Jane. They also raised it with their pennies. The

991
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: memorial to Jane Klusen, which still exists. I have a

992
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:10,680
Speaker 2: picture in my book, The Papers ridiculed him for that too,

993
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: say what did she do to become a hero? All

994
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,399
Speaker 2: she did was, you know, she just got murdered, which

995
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 2: I think shows an incredible insensitivity that her fellows in

996
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: Greenwich were not willing to show.

997
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

998
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

999
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherwalk and Don't Forget. There are

1000
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1001
00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1002
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1003
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1004
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christine Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1005
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by

1006
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1007
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More

1008
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod