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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey There and Welcome Back. It's the latest edition of

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Speaker 1: the Book of Joe podcast with me, Tom Berducci and

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Speaker 1: Joe Madden and Joe. As I sit here in my office,

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Speaker 1: I can look on my wall and I can see

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Speaker 1: a framed poster, if you will, But it's actually the

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Speaker 1: original catalog of a brand new car. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if they still do that. It's been a long time

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Speaker 1: since I bought a new car. Do they still have

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Speaker 1: the catalogs of the cars and dealerships?

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Speaker 2: I think that's all online.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I was just messing around looking at some Dodge

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Speaker 3: trucks the other day, and I think whatever you need

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Speaker 3: to find is online pretty much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of miss those having those in your hands,

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Speaker 1: or the fact they have the paint chips and the

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Speaker 1: different colors you can choose. Yes, absolutely, Anyway, mine is

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy three Plymouth Satellite. Okay, that was my

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Speaker 1: first car. That's why it's in a frame on my

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Speaker 1: wall now. The Plymouth Satellite, for those of you who

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Speaker 1: obviously have not heard of it, it was used a

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Speaker 1: lot by police departments. Right, I'm going to connect this

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Speaker 1: to major league pitching. By the way, So HI with

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Speaker 1: me on this. Now, my car was not a former

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Speaker 1: police car. When I bought it used. I ripped off

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Speaker 1: eleven one hundred dollars bills to pay for that bad boy.

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Speaker 1: But Joe, if that were a police car, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure I would have bought it. Right. Would you buy

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Speaker 1: a used police car or a used New York City cab?

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Speaker 1: Probably not right, because let's face it, they get driven really,

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Speaker 1: really hard. Right, you want the cars that was driven

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Speaker 1: to church on Sunday And that's it. My point is

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about major league pictures, and it's been

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Speaker 1: a storyline this year in spring training that once again

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of pictures going down with injuries. Essentially.

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Speaker 1: I know people want to blame major league teams for

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Speaker 1: the lack of development of keeping pictures healthy, But what

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Speaker 1: they're doing is they're buying use New York cabs and

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Speaker 1: buying it used police cars. In other words, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of mileage on these arms before these guys get

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Speaker 1: to the big leagues. Why well, basically because of showcase ball,

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Speaker 1: travel ball, the ability now to teach kids at an

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Speaker 1: early age to throw really hard. The quest of velocity,

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Speaker 1: which is how you get noticed in the amateur market.

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Speaker 1: So all the way in Terry's showing up at an

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Speaker 1: early age, and once they're in the hands of professional organizations,

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Speaker 1: you know you're already working against the odds in terms

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Speaker 1: of people getting healthy. I bring this up because again

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Speaker 1: this spring training, and it happens every year, folks. You

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Speaker 1: know Stan Conte, the old trainer with the San Francisco Giants,

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Speaker 1: taught me this years ago. The most dangerous time of

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Speaker 1: year if you're talking about pitcher injuries is spring training. Guys.

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Speaker 1: Some guys have had some injuries at the end of

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Speaker 1: the year. They hope that rest of the offseason gets

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Speaker 1: them through it. Some people ramp up way too early.

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Speaker 1: It's the most dangerous time of year for pictures. You

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Speaker 1: think maybe August or September late in the year. No,

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Speaker 1: it's actually March when guys really start to cut it loose.

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Speaker 1: So you got Garrett call who's getting an MRI at

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Speaker 1: his elbow. You've got Lucas Giolito who's down now, Tommy

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Speaker 1: John surgery. Edward Cabrera with the Marlins now has a

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Speaker 1: shoulder issue. Jackson Cower the Mariners traded for him from Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: He's having Tommy John surgery. Well, the other guy they

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Speaker 1: got in that trade, Cole Phillips, is having his second

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Speaker 1: Tommy John surgery, and on and on it goes. So, Joe,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about that today. And I don't

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Speaker 1: want to pretend that we have answers, because baseball teams

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Speaker 1: and medical professionals have studied this for a long time.

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Speaker 1: But this is the game that we have now. It's

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Speaker 1: a war of attrition with pitching. And if you're sitting

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Speaker 1: there thinking there's one reason why this is happening, I

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Speaker 1: think you're wrong. It's a very complex issue, agreed.

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Speaker 3: I mean, and if you could narrow it down, obviously

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Speaker 3: we would have done that by now.

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Speaker 2: I really believe if.

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Speaker 3: I had a pinpoint one item, I would think it's

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Speaker 3: this chasing velocity has a lot to do with it

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Speaker 3: getting out of like a normal pattern of delivering a baseball,

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Speaker 3: almost like a tempoed golf swing, swinging too hard but

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Speaker 3: being on time.

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Speaker 2: I watched these.

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Speaker 3: Drills that they're they're like taking crow hops and throwing

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Speaker 3: as hard as they possibly can into nets and then

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Speaker 3: they get out on the mountain. It's pretty much you

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Speaker 3: don't even go from zero to six. So you're going

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Speaker 3: from zero to like seventy five to eighty from your

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Speaker 3: very first pitch, and that's what we're chasing. We're chasing velocity.

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Speaker 3: There's a technique is not nearly as important, although you

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Speaker 3: know you'll get on the different devices that apparently show

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Speaker 3: your armstroke and how the ball is being released ball

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Speaker 3: out of the hand.

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Speaker 2: It's rotation, et cetera. Spin.

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Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, I still like

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Speaker 3: the idea of a good hitting instructor watching a hitter

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Speaker 3: from the open side. And I still love the idea

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Speaker 3: of a really accomplished pitching coach watching a pitcher throw

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Speaker 3: the baseball from the side of his choice. Those are

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Speaker 3: the kind of things that I think have gone awry. Also,

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Speaker 3: I have a friend and I know we talked about this,

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Speaker 3: is a fellow by name of Jim Kernel.

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Speaker 2: I played ball with that Lafayette.

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Speaker 3: He's doing like a really big study on this, and

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Speaker 3: he has a really strong opinion about how this is

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Speaker 3: happening and why, and he's talked to Ron Darling about

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Speaker 3: it pretty much, regarding how far the hand gets behind

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Speaker 3: the head and with the torque in the upper body

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Speaker 3: and how it like almost like your shoulders almost touch

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Speaker 3: each other behind in an attempt to create more velocity.

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Speaker 3: He's probably made more sense of this than anybody I've

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Speaker 3: seen to this point. But anyway, there's there's a variety

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Speaker 3: of different reasons. I think chasing velocity is number one.

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Speaker 3: After that, you can't even talk about overuse or abuse.

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Speaker 3: It's not permitted, it doesn't happen. Maybe that's the problem.

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Speaker 3: We're not letting them throw enough pitches, not letting them

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Speaker 3: throw enough pitches where you're just trying to get hitters

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Speaker 3: up by making good pitches as opposed to trying to

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Speaker 3: strike everybody out.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's all these philosophical reasons.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, I think it has something to do with

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Speaker 3: delivery to chasing velocity. I think it has something to

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Speaker 3: do with what happens with your hand and your arm

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Speaker 3: behind your head in regards to on your foot lands

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Speaker 3: and the torque that you're putting on.

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Speaker 2: All of that.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a correlation to all of that.

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Speaker 1: All really really great points. Joe and I agree with

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Speaker 1: all of them. It does a lot to dive into there,

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Speaker 1: and we will get to mechanics because it's a very

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Speaker 1: important point. Let's start with velocity. There's no question that

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Speaker 1: we have the ability now talking about the industry of baseball,

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Speaker 1: to have guys throw harder to max out in velocity.

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Speaker 1: You and I grew up in an era where you

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Speaker 1: know you were blessed with a good arm or not,

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Speaker 1: you pretty much threw harder. You didn't. Now we realize

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Speaker 1: there are ways to train the body to throw harder.

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about taking a guy out of your

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Speaker 1: local bar and all of a sudden he's getting hit

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Speaker 1: one hundred on the gun. No, but pushing the envelope

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Speaker 1: in terms of chasing velocity. It's easily done. They're proven

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Speaker 1: ways to do that. It's happening, There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: Velocity is going up around the game. It has been

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Speaker 1: for the last decade or so. What that means is, again,

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Speaker 1: this is translating down to the amateur level, right, and

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Speaker 1: you're talking about players who are doing things like you mentioned, Joe,

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Speaker 1: whether it's weighted balls or throwing hard into nets. They're

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Speaker 1: training like grown men when their growth plates are still open.

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Speaker 1: I would not if I have a major league organization

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Speaker 1: touch a guy at the top of the first round

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Speaker 1: who's throwing ninety five plus in heighths wouldn't do it,

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Speaker 1: and the odds show you that their breakdowns waiting to happen.

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Speaker 1: Having velocity at a young age is both a blessing

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Speaker 1: and its curse. It's a blessing because you're gonna punch

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Speaker 1: out people. Kids at that age are not gonna hit velocity.

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Speaker 1: It's a curse because you are ramping up that arm

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Speaker 1: and pushing it to limits that you shouldn't be at

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Speaker 1: that age when you're not physically fully developed. So you've

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Speaker 1: got that again. So I think velocity, there's no question

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Speaker 1: there's a correlation here between velocity and the breaking down

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Speaker 1: of the shoulders slash elbow. There's no question about it.

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Speaker 1: And the more we chase it, the more we're putting

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Speaker 1: pitchers in harm's way. You know the the ASMI group

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Speaker 1: down in Birmingham, Alabama, it's Doctor Andrews group, and they've

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Speaker 1: done amazing things studying all this. They have drawn a

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Speaker 1: correlation between velocity and the breakdown of the arm. And

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Speaker 1: their recommendation is similar to what you said, Joe, is

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Speaker 1: don't redline all the time. Don't go out there and

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Speaker 1: max out in your velocity all the time. The ones

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Speaker 1: that lasts are the ones who have a cruising speed,

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Speaker 1: and then they can find that max pitch when they

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Speaker 1: need to have that. It's hard to convince young players

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Speaker 1: to do that when this game is predicated on go

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Speaker 1: as hard as you can for as long as you can,

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Speaker 1: even if that's four or five innings. Major league teams

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Speaker 1: are happy with that. So it's hard to convince a

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Speaker 1: guy now to not redline with every single pitch from

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Speaker 1: the first inning on.

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Speaker 3: Stay within the speed limit right for a while. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I have some of the best pictures I've been around

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Speaker 3: are those guys that have that little extra when it's necessary.

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Speaker 3: When the strikeoud is when you don't want to see

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Speaker 3: contact runner and scoring position, running a second base, zero out,

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Speaker 3: one out, two running and scoring position, you want to

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Speaker 3: stay away from contact at all. That's where you might

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Speaker 3: see a little bit more out of in the past. Really,

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Speaker 3: the Thoroughbred pictures, you saw all of that, there's something

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Speaker 3: left in the tank for those moments. They didn't show

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Speaker 3: you everything they had all the way through. Now you

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Speaker 3: just want let's empty the tank. Let's rev it all

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Speaker 3: the way up RPMs as much as you can, as

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Speaker 3: long as you can as hard as you can. And

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Speaker 3: now I think that really feeds into the system of

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Speaker 3: third time through the batting order.

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Speaker 2: I've always felt third time through the.

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Speaker 3: Batting order it could be accomplished by an accomplished pitcher

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Speaker 3: who ways of pitching and has other things left in

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Speaker 3: his bag to show this hit or the third time through.

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Speaker 3: I think that's not even discussed. I don't even have

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Speaker 3: a way to prove all that. It's just observational on

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Speaker 3: my part. Guys that have that other thing that they

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Speaker 3: can do and know how to pitch can get through

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Speaker 3: the third time through.

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Speaker 2: You talk about, you know, when.

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Speaker 3: These guys just work out on the side these days,

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Speaker 3: it's normally with some kind of a monitor there and

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Speaker 3: some kind of a device there. When these guys are working.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's I don't even know how

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Speaker 3: much in the big leagues, but definitely within the minor leagues.

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Speaker 3: After pitch thrown, a lot of times, the pitchro'll turn

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Speaker 3: to whomever and say what did that say? What was

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Speaker 3: my spin rate? What was the movement? What was the

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Speaker 3: vertical or horizontal movement on that particular pitch.

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Speaker 2: That's what they want to know.

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Speaker 3: It's not about you know, the delivery, picking up my target,

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Speaker 3: completing the pitch. When you throw a ball well, I

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Speaker 3: don't care if it's a football or baseball, and you

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Speaker 3: throw it well, it feels like he didn't throw it

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Speaker 3: at all. There's like this naturalness athleticism to your body.

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Speaker 3: And that's when you're probably and I'll say you were

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Speaker 3: throwing your absolute best, your max. When you throw something

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Speaker 3: well and accomplished and you didn't feel like you threw

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Speaker 3: it at all. That's what I would be striving for

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Speaker 3: as a pitcher. But these guys, there's so much recoil

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Speaker 3: and deliveries. I saw my grandson throwing the other day, Trey,

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Speaker 3: and he's got a nice arm. He's a tall kid.

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Speaker 3: He looks like Nuke l Lush. I call him Nuke.

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Speaker 3: But when he hits, he's recoiling off to the left already,

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Speaker 3: you know, at different left leg and here we go

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Speaker 3: to the left because he's probably chasing velocity. It's all

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Speaker 3: in there, man, it's I definitely believe with a different tact,

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Speaker 3: a different philosophy in play, that you'd be able to

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Speaker 3: sustain arms longer. If you really understand stay within the

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Speaker 3: speed limit, get outside of that when it's necessary. Let

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Speaker 3: your defense play. We always us to talk about pitch

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Speaker 3: the contact. Nobody wants to hear that anymore. Nobody wants

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Speaker 3: to hear the good sninker ball on the ground. Set

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Speaker 3: the way defenses are set up these days, according to

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Speaker 3: the data, which I like, I've defended that from the beginning,

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Speaker 3: that is a good way to set up your defense.

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Speaker 3: You would think that there'd be more pitching the contact situations,

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Speaker 3: and then you go for the punch when it's necessary.

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Speaker 3: These are the kind of thoughts that I'd like to

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Speaker 3: see incorporate it more.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, listen to it's first of all. One thing that

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Speaker 1: really bothers me is when people say, well, the throwing

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Speaker 1: a baseball is an unnatural act. It's not. The human body.

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Speaker 1: The way the shoulder is designed, it's built to throw.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the way people killed their prey back

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Speaker 1: in the day, right, But they were probably weren't designed

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Speaker 1: to throw sliders at ninety four miles an hour. Sure, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's the difference here. The human arm is built to throw.

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Speaker 1: In fact, the fastest motion in the human body is

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Speaker 1: the rotation of the shoulder and the arm when a

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Speaker 1: baseball is thrown. The people again at s MII in Birmingham,

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Speaker 1: American Sports Medicine Institute, they actually took a cadaver and

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Speaker 1: they figured out how far could you stress the shoulder

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Speaker 1: in terms of the pressure on it before it literally

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Speaker 1: falls apart. And guess what it's exactly at the point

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Speaker 1: a pitcher puts pressure on that shoulder capsule area when

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Speaker 1: he throws a ball ninety plus miles an hour. Now,

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Speaker 1: the cadaver was not a twenty five year old, you know,

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Speaker 1: athlete in his prime. I get it, but you get

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Speaker 1: the point there. We're already at the physical envelope, the

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Speaker 1: edge of the envelope when it comes to throwing a

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Speaker 1: baseball hard. Okay, so the when you do it so

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Speaker 1: many times and again, I can't stress this enough, especially

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Speaker 1: at a young age, it's really really important. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to read you something Joe, that the people at ASMI

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Speaker 1: decided when you know this, the epidemic so to speak,

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Speaker 1: of Tommy John surgeries, it's gone on for a long time, right,

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Speaker 1: I want to say almost two decades. Weren't too that now,

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Speaker 1: So this goes back to twenty sixteen when it seemed

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Speaker 1: like we were having a ramp of injuries. Here's what

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Speaker 1: they said. When an orthopedist performed surgery on a torn

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Speaker 1: ulner collateral ligament Tommy John ligament, the surgeon will almost

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Speaker 1: always see a ligament that has frayed over time from

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Speaker 1: overuse and repetition. In previous generations, my major league pitchers

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Speaker 1: grew up competitively pitching only a few months each year,

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Speaker 1: but nowadays leagues and teams are available for adolescents to

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Speaker 1: play competitive baseball almost all year. Research has shown a

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Speaker 1: strong link between too much competitive pitching and arm injuries,

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Speaker 1: and the key phrase there for me, Joe, is competitive pitching,

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Speaker 1: not throwing. Competitive pitching when you've got the uniform on,

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Speaker 1: people are watching you, and you're keeping score and the

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Speaker 1: account's being taken, that's competitive pitching.

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Speaker 2: No question.

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Speaker 3: It's a different vibe completely. That's the difference between spring

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Speaker 3: training and a regular season two normally. I mean in

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Speaker 3: spring training. As a manager, I learned early on that

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Speaker 3: you know, of course you're paying attention, of course you're watching,

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Speaker 3: but don't put a lot of stock into performance at

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Speaker 3: this particular time.

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Speaker 2: It's different.

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Speaker 3: The moment the big lights go on, everything changes.

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Speaker 2: For a kid.

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Speaker 3: Those big lights are anytime you see a Scout back

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Speaker 3: there with a gun, or just knowing the fact that

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Speaker 3: a Scott might be back.

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Speaker 2: There when you're that young again.

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Speaker 3: To be able to process all the thoughts and information

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Speaker 3: being thrown your way, it's difficult. So you're always when

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Speaker 3: you're on point, the show is on, you're going to

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Speaker 3: reach back for something more. And I definitely understand that

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Speaker 3: and agree with that as being a part of the

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Speaker 3: contributing factors. The other point just to I don't know

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Speaker 3: if this is relevant or not, but you're talking about

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Speaker 3: the chasing velocity and everybody wanting that to be what

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Speaker 3: everybody wants. We're at the point now it seems almost

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Speaker 3: like we're willing to open up a new can of pictures.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we're going to utilize this shelf and there's

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Speaker 3: a shelf life on it. They're probably stamped like a

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Speaker 3: can of beer in my fridge right now, you know

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Speaker 3: the date when it was born and potentially.

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Speaker 2: The date that you got to throw it away.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's almost like we're putting a date on

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Speaker 3: these guys as they're coming up, just based on the

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Speaker 3: fact the way we're teaching them and what we're trying

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Speaker 3: to requesting them to get done. It's almost like you

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Speaker 3: put a stamp on them when that Tommy John's going

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Speaker 3: to occur, or when things are going to start breakdown,

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Speaker 3: or there's always anomalies, man, and there's always the anomaly guy,

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Speaker 3: and throughout history when we were growing up, and even

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Speaker 3: today to a point which you thought Garrett Cole was

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Speaker 3: an anomaly too. So anyway, I think part of it

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Speaker 3: is the ubiquitous nature of young guys that are able

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Speaker 3: and willing to throw hard. Right now, I think that, okay,

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Speaker 3: if this guy breaks down, that's why we got this

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Speaker 3: this stockpile in the minor leagues, bringing other guys up

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Speaker 3: that throw that hard too. I think that's part of

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Speaker 3: the philosophy I do. I don't know that there's as

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Speaker 3: much concern with the breakdown as there had been in

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Speaker 3: the past.

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Speaker 1: I agree one hundred percent, Joe. I think you're almost

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Speaker 1: emboldened by the supply again, as we can keep training

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Speaker 1: pitchers to throw hard, not necessarily be you know, craftsmen

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Speaker 1: of the of the craft of pitching. That supply is

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Speaker 1: almost endless. And you know, got two pitch guys who

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Speaker 1: can throw hard and spin a baseball. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: out there to recover from the inevitable breakdowns. Now, over

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Speaker 1: the years, to me, the two biggest red flags for

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Speaker 1: pitcher injuries have been overuse and poor mechanics. Joe, you

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Speaker 1: brought up the idea of overuse. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about that as it applies to today's game. Our pitcher's

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Speaker 1: actually overused anymore. We'll talk about that right after this.

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Speaker 2: All right, Joe.

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Speaker 1: You know, as a manager, you're watching there that your

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Speaker 1: guy on the mound and whatever the pitch count is,

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Speaker 1: you're making sure that he stays in his delivery. And sometimes,

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Speaker 1: you know, a guy gets outside of his delivery. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of a warning side. I thought it was really

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Speaker 1: cool when you sat down with me and Bob Costas

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Speaker 1: and Terry Francona to talk about Game seven of the

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen World Series, and Corey Klueber was out there

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Speaker 1: in the seventh month of the year, pitching for a

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Speaker 1: third time in nine or ten days, second start in

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Speaker 1: a row, on short rest, and it was interesting what

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Speaker 1: Terry Francona said that he knew watching him early in

357
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Speaker 1: the game that his arm was starting to drop. I

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Speaker 1: thought that was just so interesting. It's the eyes of

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Speaker 1: a veteran manager in a dug out looking at this

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Speaker 1: guy and know one he was leaking some oil out there.

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Speaker 1: My point is, Joe, that happens so rarely in the

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Speaker 1: game today. Baseball has now aired on the side of

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Speaker 1: protecting these guys of quote unquote saving bullets. It's rare

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Speaker 1: that pitchers are out there throwing at any point of fatigue.

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Speaker 1: The average rest going into a start now is four

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Speaker 1: or five days of rest, really five days more than four.

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Speaker 1: So they're pitching less than they ever have, pitching less

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Speaker 1: often than they ever have, and they're breaking down more so.

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Speaker 1: I think the argument that pitchers pitched too much and

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Speaker 1: that's the reason why guys get hurt. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that flies anymore.

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Speaker 2: I don't.

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Speaker 3: Again, it goes back to what are we asking them

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Speaker 3: to do in the first place, and that's to throw

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Speaker 3: as hard as they possibly can. The game has shifted

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Speaker 3: to an emphasis on relievers. And again this comes to

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Speaker 3: the third time through. All these things are interconnected. I oftentimes,

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Speaker 3: even in the past with the Cubs and even before

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Speaker 3: that with the race, I always talked about playing the

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Speaker 3: game backward. You know there was a time if you remember,

381
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Speaker 3: I know you do that bullpens are not considered so valuable,

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00:17:58,998 --> 00:18:01,678
Speaker 3: right and they're like a dime a dozen kind of guys.

383
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Speaker 2: Just I don't worry about it. We will pick up

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Speaker 2: whenever we want.

385
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Speaker 3: We'll bos get this settled in spring training, et cetera,

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00:18:06,798 --> 00:18:08,038
Speaker 3: et cetera. And I always just think, what are you

387
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Speaker 3: talking about? You could absolutely work a game backwards, and

388
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Speaker 3: I think you know that's actually what's happening right now.

389
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Speaker 3: They want to work the game backwards. It's not something

390
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Speaker 3: that you did because you lack really good starting pitching.

391
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Speaker 3: Now you do it because that's what you want to do.

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Speaker 3: So now the emphasis is on the relievers, and I

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Speaker 3: think that's a big part of the less number of

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Speaker 3: inningstone by starters. And I think that trend's going to

395
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Speaker 3: continue because you're not building it up in the minor

396
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Speaker 3: leagues because these guys are not permitted to go through

397
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Speaker 3: adversity in the minor leagues. Well, that's number one. You've

398
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Speaker 3: said that it's so important to stretch your young pitchers

399
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Speaker 3: out in the minor leagues. That you like that you

400
00:18:43,958 --> 00:18:46,958
Speaker 3: think these guys potentially are part of your big league team.

401
00:18:47,078 --> 00:18:49,158
Speaker 3: These guys have to go through some adversity. They have

402
00:18:49,198 --> 00:18:52,198
Speaker 3: to be permitted to pitch out of bad situations. They

403
00:18:52,238 --> 00:18:54,198
Speaker 3: have to be permitted to throw one hundred sometimes one

404
00:18:54,278 --> 00:18:56,678
Speaker 3: hundred and ten pitches in the minor leagues to get

405
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Speaker 3: hopefully through the sixth inning, not just the fifth inning.

406
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Speaker 3: Because the more you get your guys to it's it's

407
00:19:01,998 --> 00:19:04,398
Speaker 3: ups and downs. When you get guys to understand six

408
00:19:04,478 --> 00:19:07,438
Speaker 3: ups and downs and even seven, wow that now you

409
00:19:07,518 --> 00:19:10,038
Speaker 3: got somebody special coming up to your big league team.

410
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Speaker 3: Last point, regarding over the use. You talked about that

411
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Speaker 3: out of delivery, that was my big thing. As soon

412
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Speaker 3: as you said that, I just flashed on Shieldsy James Shields.

413
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Speaker 3: Shields was a horse man, and I should say permitted

414
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Speaker 3: him to go over one hundred and eight pitches once

415
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Speaker 3: because he always wanted to go more, always wanted to

416
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Speaker 3: go more. I thought he was coming out of his

417
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Speaker 3: delivery and I thought he got to that number. I

418
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Speaker 3: don't know why I won a wait, but all of

419
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Speaker 3: a sudden, bad things would happen. So eventually, you know,

420
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Speaker 3: when the scores right, the inning's right, everything's cool, you

421
00:19:36,718 --> 00:19:39,118
Speaker 3: let him go and see how he handles it. Eventually

422
00:19:39,158 --> 00:19:41,918
Speaker 3: he figured it out and party pretty much what that

423
00:19:41,958 --> 00:19:44,358
Speaker 3: would be was like trying not hit the ball three

424
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Speaker 3: point fifty down the center. Just hit it three hundred

425
00:19:46,758 --> 00:19:49,318
Speaker 3: with your three would whatever, two fifty whatever, don't come

426
00:19:49,318 --> 00:19:51,918
Speaker 3: out of your delivery. That was me with him. I'd

427
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Speaker 3: see him come out of his delivery. Alex Kobb come

428
00:19:53,958 --> 00:19:56,438
Speaker 3: out of his delivery. Those would be warning signs for me.

429
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Speaker 3: That's what I always looked at with my better pitchers,

430
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Speaker 3: and I would say that to the whomever st my

431
00:20:01,958 --> 00:20:04,518
Speaker 3: pitching coach or like Mike Borsello, gott he's staying in

432
00:20:04,518 --> 00:20:06,118
Speaker 3: his delivery, I'm gonna stay with him.

433
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Speaker 2: Or I see him coming out of it.

434
00:20:07,558 --> 00:20:10,558
Speaker 3: He's trying to manufacture the loss of your stuff. Let's

435
00:20:10,598 --> 00:20:12,838
Speaker 3: get him and make sure somebody so and so is ready.

436
00:20:13,118 --> 00:20:15,238
Speaker 3: Those are the warning signs for me, one hundred percent.

437
00:20:15,238 --> 00:20:17,318
Speaker 3: You're out on the money with that. But the game,

438
00:20:17,478 --> 00:20:20,278
Speaker 3: the emphasis is on relievers, and because of that, you're

439
00:20:20,318 --> 00:20:22,678
Speaker 3: not going to see start a stretched out and because

440
00:20:22,678 --> 00:20:25,198
Speaker 3: of that, they want guys to swing and miss, and

441
00:20:25,278 --> 00:20:27,238
Speaker 3: because of that we're going to chase velocity.

442
00:20:27,438 --> 00:20:29,478
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you a story that you know,

443
00:20:29,518 --> 00:20:31,998
Speaker 1: given the events of this week with Garrett Cole getting

444
00:20:31,998 --> 00:20:34,038
Speaker 1: an MRI and his elbow the time. He may not

445
00:20:34,078 --> 00:20:36,318
Speaker 1: be perfect, but I'll tell you it anyway. I was

446
00:20:36,318 --> 00:20:39,438
Speaker 1: in the dais room before the Baseball Writers Awards dinner

447
00:20:39,478 --> 00:20:41,318
Speaker 1: this year. Garrett Cole was there to pick up his

448
00:20:41,358 --> 00:20:43,838
Speaker 1: cy Young Award, his first Say Young Award. It's amazing.

449
00:20:43,878 --> 00:20:46,478
Speaker 1: He's been so good for so long. It took him

450
00:20:46,518 --> 00:20:48,478
Speaker 1: this long to be the one who want it, but

451
00:20:48,518 --> 00:20:51,358
Speaker 1: he did. And his dad came up to me in

452
00:20:51,398 --> 00:20:54,638
Speaker 1: the dais room and he told me you are as

453
00:20:54,718 --> 00:20:57,318
Speaker 1: much a part of this cy Young Award as anybody else.

454
00:20:57,638 --> 00:20:59,958
Speaker 1: And obviously I was blown away like a cue. What

455
00:20:59,998 --> 00:21:03,198
Speaker 1: could possibly have done? And back in the day, I

456
00:21:03,278 --> 00:21:06,038
Speaker 1: used to always keep track of when teams pushed young

457
00:21:06,118 --> 00:21:09,638
Speaker 1: pictures with their innings, and I never, I never agreed

458
00:21:09,678 --> 00:21:12,598
Speaker 1: with it to just have no kind of governors on

459
00:21:12,638 --> 00:21:14,998
Speaker 1: a young picture. I'm talking about twenty five and under

460
00:21:15,118 --> 00:21:17,238
Speaker 1: in the major leagues, where Joe, you know, the stress

461
00:21:17,278 --> 00:21:18,998
Speaker 1: is a lot different with the third deck of the

462
00:21:19,038 --> 00:21:21,438
Speaker 1: stadium and everybody looking at you trying to get your

463
00:21:21,438 --> 00:21:23,478
Speaker 1: feet on the ground. And back then, I thought, if

464
00:21:23,518 --> 00:21:26,398
Speaker 1: you had a picture increase his workload by more than

465
00:21:26,438 --> 00:21:29,198
Speaker 1: thirty percent, that was like being a guy who ran

466
00:21:29,398 --> 00:21:31,518
Speaker 1: like a mile deciding one day you're going to run

467
00:21:31,558 --> 00:21:34,638
Speaker 1: a marathon. Could you do it? Maybe you could do it,

468
00:21:34,958 --> 00:21:37,478
Speaker 1: but man, you're gonna get hurts. It's not the way

469
00:21:37,518 --> 00:21:39,598
Speaker 1: to go. You got to get there by staircasing it.

470
00:21:39,718 --> 00:21:44,478
Speaker 1: Have your workload be increased incrementally. And Garrett and his dad,

471
00:21:44,518 --> 00:21:47,238
Speaker 1: to their credit, they studied everything. They read everything. And

472
00:21:47,278 --> 00:21:49,118
Speaker 1: I'm not saying I had the answer to everything, but

473
00:21:49,198 --> 00:21:52,518
Speaker 1: apparently he read what I wrote. And Garrett's dad stuck

474
00:21:52,558 --> 00:21:55,718
Speaker 1: to that. He would not let teams pitch Garrett too

475
00:21:55,918 --> 00:21:58,678
Speaker 1: much as he was growing up. And I appreciated that,

476
00:21:58,758 --> 00:22:00,958
Speaker 1: but I also thought, you know what, I actually stopped

477
00:22:00,998 --> 00:22:04,318
Speaker 1: doing it recent years because teams really don't do that more.

478
00:22:04,638 --> 00:22:08,558
Speaker 1: I think they've they've gotten a lot smarter about picture usage,

479
00:22:08,878 --> 00:22:11,798
Speaker 1: and I think part of it is protecting young pictures

480
00:22:11,878 --> 00:22:14,798
Speaker 1: as they develop. Twenty five and under man, you're still

481
00:22:14,798 --> 00:22:17,958
Speaker 1: growing as a pitcher. So I think the and we're

482
00:22:17,958 --> 00:22:21,038
Speaker 1: getting back to workload here, Joe, the organizations have gotten

483
00:22:21,078 --> 00:22:23,518
Speaker 1: a lot smarter. Maybe they go a little too far

484
00:22:23,558 --> 00:22:25,838
Speaker 1: in terms of protecting guys, but I'm talking in this

485
00:22:25,918 --> 00:22:28,438
Speaker 1: case about young pictures. I think they've gotten a lot

486
00:22:28,558 --> 00:22:33,238
Speaker 1: smarter about not just piling up endings indiscriminately just because

487
00:22:33,278 --> 00:22:36,038
Speaker 1: they can, but keeping a keeping track of those things.

488
00:22:36,318 --> 00:22:38,838
Speaker 3: As you're saying that, I'm almost thinking out to myself

489
00:22:38,878 --> 00:22:42,758
Speaker 3: out but possibly develop kind of a sliding scale based

490
00:22:42,798 --> 00:22:45,118
Speaker 3: on I'm talking to minor leagues right now, guys with

491
00:22:45,358 --> 00:22:48,998
Speaker 3: velocity versus guys that have this innate ability to pitch.

492
00:22:49,038 --> 00:22:52,158
Speaker 3: In other words, the guys that are just velo guys

493
00:22:52,278 --> 00:22:58,438
Speaker 3: chasing velocity, throw hard. That's where their value lies. Maybe

494
00:22:58,518 --> 00:23:00,678
Speaker 3: that would be the guy at curtail a little bit more.

495
00:23:00,838 --> 00:23:03,198
Speaker 3: But the guy that's a pitcher that stays within, like

496
00:23:03,238 --> 00:23:07,518
Speaker 3: I don't know, two velocity with good sync, nice change up,

497
00:23:08,118 --> 00:23:11,198
Speaker 3: drops his curve ball over first strike guy. Basically, I

498
00:23:11,198 --> 00:23:14,038
Speaker 3: guess I'm just describing somebody knows how to pitch, as

499
00:23:14,038 --> 00:23:17,038
Speaker 3: opposed to somebody that's just there to really try to

500
00:23:17,038 --> 00:23:19,358
Speaker 3: elevate his fastball top of his zone, like you said,

501
00:23:19,438 --> 00:23:23,598
Speaker 3: rip some sliders off and maybe maybe throw a change up.

502
00:23:23,598 --> 00:23:26,878
Speaker 3: So maybe there's a sliding scaleing or developmentally speaking. And

503
00:23:26,958 --> 00:23:30,518
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking to this as you're talking velocity, a

504
00:23:30,518 --> 00:23:32,718
Speaker 3: little bit more careful, a little bit less workload, a

505
00:23:32,718 --> 00:23:37,198
Speaker 3: picture somebody that really recreates his delivery, consistently, has a

506
00:23:37,278 --> 00:23:40,518
Speaker 3: nice tempo about what he's doing. He's able to repeat mechanics,

507
00:23:40,558 --> 00:23:44,158
Speaker 3: et cetera. Maybe that guy gets a little bit more latitude.

508
00:23:44,358 --> 00:23:46,398
Speaker 3: I don't know, it might actually make sense.

509
00:23:46,998 --> 00:23:48,998
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like what you just said there, Joe, because

510
00:23:49,038 --> 00:23:51,558
Speaker 1: when I talk about governors on young pitchers, one thing

511
00:23:51,598 --> 00:23:54,038
Speaker 1: I don't like. I think I can speak for you

512
00:23:54,078 --> 00:23:56,918
Speaker 1: on this as well. I don't like any rule that

513
00:23:56,958 --> 00:24:00,358
Speaker 1: applies to everybody. I mean, it's not a one size

514
00:24:00,358 --> 00:24:03,078
Speaker 1: fits all. So what you're talking about is a lot

515
00:24:03,078 --> 00:24:06,678
Speaker 1: of different variable in terms of stuff mechanics, body types

516
00:24:06,718 --> 00:24:08,238
Speaker 1: huge for me in terms of how you're going to

517
00:24:08,638 --> 00:24:11,598
Speaker 1: push a young guy. So you have a general idea

518
00:24:11,878 --> 00:24:14,038
Speaker 1: of the increase in innings you want on a picture,

519
00:24:14,078 --> 00:24:17,238
Speaker 1: but you cannot apply that equally to all pitchers. Are

520
00:24:17,358 --> 00:24:21,358
Speaker 1: just too many types. So just for the sake of expediency,

521
00:24:21,438 --> 00:24:24,598
Speaker 1: I would use a percentage. But I do agree it's

522
00:24:24,638 --> 00:24:27,518
Speaker 1: important for teams that show some latitude in terms of

523
00:24:27,558 --> 00:24:29,358
Speaker 1: how we can push some and others you're going to

524
00:24:29,438 --> 00:24:31,838
Speaker 1: have to protect a little more. So I'm glad you

525
00:24:31,878 --> 00:24:34,958
Speaker 1: said that it's really important that we don't treat everybody

526
00:24:34,998 --> 00:24:38,598
Speaker 1: the same because they just aren't these human beings. And

527
00:24:38,718 --> 00:24:40,278
Speaker 1: just to I want to give you an idea, Joe,

528
00:24:40,358 --> 00:24:43,878
Speaker 1: getting back to workload of how much, especially starting pitching

529
00:24:43,958 --> 00:24:46,798
Speaker 1: has changed because you mentioned how the idea now that

530
00:24:47,118 --> 00:24:50,838
Speaker 1: bullpens have risen in promise, in prominence in terms of listen,

531
00:24:50,918 --> 00:24:53,518
Speaker 1: how much they pitch more than ever, they get paid

532
00:24:53,558 --> 00:24:55,638
Speaker 1: more than ever, you need, more than ever. We get

533
00:24:55,678 --> 00:24:59,118
Speaker 1: it right. Just in the last ten seasons, so we're

534
00:24:59,118 --> 00:25:03,238
Speaker 1: going from twenty fourteen to twenty twenty three, the percentage

535
00:25:03,238 --> 00:25:06,438
Speaker 1: of quality starts, which is allowing three runs or less

536
00:25:06,478 --> 00:25:09,598
Speaker 1: over six or more innings, has dropped from fifty four

537
00:25:09,678 --> 00:25:12,438
Speaker 1: percent so the majority of starts where quality starts in

538
00:25:12,478 --> 00:25:15,918
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, that has dropped to thirty five percent, so

539
00:25:16,078 --> 00:25:17,838
Speaker 1: one from one out of every two to one out

540
00:25:17,838 --> 00:25:21,438
Speaker 1: of every three. The average number of innings pitched per

541
00:25:21,558 --> 00:25:24,358
Speaker 1: start in ten years, We're not going back fifty years,

542
00:25:24,358 --> 00:25:28,678
Speaker 1: folks and Mickey Lolich and wilver Wood. Innings pitched average

543
00:25:28,718 --> 00:25:32,238
Speaker 1: start has gone from six innings down to five point one.

544
00:25:33,198 --> 00:25:36,798
Speaker 1: The number of pitches that pitchers are allowed to throw

545
00:25:36,918 --> 00:25:41,118
Speaker 1: on average has dropped from ninety six to eighty five,

546
00:25:42,078 --> 00:25:44,878
Speaker 1: and the number of qualified pitchers. That means in a

547
00:25:44,878 --> 00:25:46,918
Speaker 1: full season, the number of pitchers who threw one hundred

548
00:25:46,918 --> 00:25:51,198
Speaker 1: and sixty two innings has dropped from eighty eight to

549
00:25:51,398 --> 00:25:55,718
Speaker 1: forty four, literally in half in ten years. So you're

550
00:25:55,758 --> 00:26:01,518
Speaker 1: talking about thirty teams and only forty four pitchers qualified

551
00:26:01,878 --> 00:26:04,438
Speaker 1: by throwing at least one inning for every game and played.

552
00:26:05,198 --> 00:26:08,718
Speaker 1: So that tells you how fast this game has changed.

553
00:26:08,798 --> 00:26:12,678
Speaker 1: Joe in terms of really dialing back what we ask

554
00:26:12,798 --> 00:26:15,198
Speaker 1: of starting pitchers now, I didn't even mention the fact

555
00:26:15,238 --> 00:26:17,798
Speaker 1: that again they're pitching with more rest than ever before

556
00:26:17,838 --> 00:26:18,478
Speaker 1: as well.

557
00:26:18,518 --> 00:26:19,958
Speaker 2: Change their manipulated right.

558
00:26:19,998 --> 00:26:22,078
Speaker 3: I mean, I just wrote down as you're saying all

559
00:26:22,118 --> 00:26:25,238
Speaker 3: that if you wanted to chase quality starts, you'll get them,

560
00:26:25,478 --> 00:26:28,078
Speaker 3: if you make that a priority within your minor leagues

561
00:26:28,078 --> 00:26:30,478
Speaker 3: and your major league, you'll get them if that's what

562
00:26:30,478 --> 00:26:32,118
Speaker 3: you set out to do. Because right now you're set

563
00:26:32,158 --> 00:26:34,958
Speaker 3: out to have them pitch less, and they're being trained

564
00:26:34,958 --> 00:26:37,678
Speaker 3: to pitch less. They're being trained to throw those eighty

565
00:26:37,678 --> 00:26:39,518
Speaker 3: five pitches as of post in ninety six.

566
00:26:39,758 --> 00:26:40,598
Speaker 2: It's all about that.

567
00:26:40,998 --> 00:26:44,798
Speaker 3: So part of it is we're not chasing the quality starts,

568
00:26:44,998 --> 00:26:48,278
Speaker 3: we're chasing the velocity and relievers number one, number two.

569
00:26:48,358 --> 00:26:49,918
Speaker 2: With that, I don't even know.

570
00:26:49,998 --> 00:26:54,598
Speaker 3: I would never speak to conspiracy theories whatever, but I

571
00:26:54,638 --> 00:26:57,118
Speaker 3: mean part of that would be the greater number of

572
00:26:57,198 --> 00:27:00,518
Speaker 3: quality starts and the more you look favorably upon starting pitchers.

573
00:27:00,518 --> 00:27:02,518
Speaker 3: That's a that's a big number. That's where the money

574
00:27:02,518 --> 00:27:05,158
Speaker 3: gets paid. So those start that really could suck up

575
00:27:05,158 --> 00:27:07,438
Speaker 3: those innings and give you what you're looking for an

576
00:27:07,438 --> 00:27:10,318
Speaker 3: annual basis. I don't even know that teams want three

577
00:27:10,358 --> 00:27:11,998
Speaker 3: of those guys. I don't even know if they do

578
00:27:12,118 --> 00:27:15,158
Speaker 3: or not. But there's definitely a sliding scale with that too.

579
00:27:15,918 --> 00:27:18,638
Speaker 3: I believe whatever you chase, you'll get. Like now you're

580
00:27:18,678 --> 00:27:22,718
Speaker 3: chased stolen bases last year by manipulating the rules, and

581
00:27:22,718 --> 00:27:25,438
Speaker 3: all of a sudden you got stolen bases all of

582
00:27:25,478 --> 00:27:28,318
Speaker 3: a sudden. Now bunts. I didn't like bunchs a couple

583
00:27:28,358 --> 00:27:31,558
Speaker 3: years go. Now bunts are cool. Contact striking out is

584
00:27:31,598 --> 00:27:33,638
Speaker 3: not as cool as it was five years ago. So

585
00:27:33,678 --> 00:27:36,518
Speaker 3: now you're getting less of those and potentially more walks.

586
00:27:36,878 --> 00:27:41,518
Speaker 3: Whatever you want to chase within this system industry of baseball,

587
00:27:41,398 --> 00:27:42,798
Speaker 3: you get, you'll get it. The players are going to

588
00:27:42,838 --> 00:27:45,438
Speaker 3: provide that for you. So that's part of it. I

589
00:27:45,518 --> 00:27:48,358
Speaker 3: just don't think we want quality starts, and because of that,

590
00:27:48,398 --> 00:27:49,318
Speaker 3: you're not going to get them.

591
00:27:49,358 --> 00:27:49,718
Speaker 2: That's it.

592
00:27:49,758 --> 00:27:52,318
Speaker 3: I mean, as you were right saying that, just one

593
00:27:52,398 --> 00:27:56,438
Speaker 3: quick thought, the prior statement you're talking about everybody being

594
00:27:56,478 --> 00:28:00,678
Speaker 3: the same, and how that's really a repulsive idea. In

595
00:28:00,718 --> 00:28:02,398
Speaker 3: the Book of Joe, we talked about that with Bob

596
00:28:02,438 --> 00:28:04,598
Speaker 3: Clear Bob Aloo as my mentor minor leagues.

597
00:28:05,038 --> 00:28:06,078
Speaker 2: I was a young hitting.

598
00:28:05,878 --> 00:28:07,838
Speaker 3: Coach my first year out and I'm in the outfield

599
00:28:07,838 --> 00:28:10,598
Speaker 3: that cedar rapids working with the hitters and had them

600
00:28:10,598 --> 00:28:13,158
Speaker 3: all doing the same drill, and I thought I was

601
00:28:13,238 --> 00:28:16,358
Speaker 3: just trying to create a habit within them to have

602
00:28:16,438 --> 00:28:19,278
Speaker 3: a first move that was indigenous to all great hitters.

603
00:28:19,318 --> 00:28:21,718
Speaker 3: I thought, God, did he get upset with me? I

604
00:28:21,758 --> 00:28:23,958
Speaker 3: came into the dugout after that. He ate me out

605
00:28:23,958 --> 00:28:26,238
Speaker 3: in the dugout right there, and we got in a

606
00:28:26,238 --> 00:28:27,678
Speaker 3: shout and match right there. I don't care it was

607
00:28:27,678 --> 00:28:29,358
Speaker 3: in front of anybody at all, because that's the way

608
00:28:29,358 --> 00:28:29,998
Speaker 3: we operate it.

609
00:28:30,678 --> 00:28:32,878
Speaker 2: He can't clone everybody. What do you do?

610
00:28:33,038 --> 00:28:35,318
Speaker 3: And it's Bablo, I'm not cloning. I'm just trying to

611
00:28:35,318 --> 00:28:37,398
Speaker 3: get this one movement right. He would not have. He

612
00:28:37,438 --> 00:28:39,998
Speaker 3: would not have any of that. Troy Percival. First time

613
00:28:39,998 --> 00:28:42,918
Speaker 3: we worked him out in the bullpen at Geonauntry Park.

614
00:28:43,838 --> 00:28:47,678
Speaker 3: He's there with us the field number one, left field

615
00:28:47,758 --> 00:28:48,518
Speaker 3: side bullpen.

616
00:28:48,878 --> 00:28:50,358
Speaker 2: Don't tell him anything.

617
00:28:50,118 --> 00:28:51,838
Speaker 3: Just to have him wind up and throw the ball.

618
00:28:52,198 --> 00:28:55,798
Speaker 3: Don't make him pretty. That's how his body in arm works.

619
00:28:56,038 --> 00:28:58,758
Speaker 3: Don't clone him. So anyway, I mean, just to go

620
00:28:58,838 --> 00:29:01,758
Speaker 3: back to your previous thought, that's number one, number two.

621
00:29:01,998 --> 00:29:04,678
Speaker 3: Whatever we chase industry wise going to get it, because

622
00:29:04,718 --> 00:29:06,958
Speaker 3: the players are going to provide it if you give

623
00:29:06,998 --> 00:29:08,558
Speaker 3: them latitude and permission to do it.

624
00:29:08,838 --> 00:29:10,518
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agreed, and I think you see that, and

625
00:29:10,558 --> 00:29:13,798
Speaker 1: you saw it very sharply. From twenty sixteen to twenty seventeen,

626
00:29:13,838 --> 00:29:16,958
Speaker 1: the number of qualified starting pitchers went from seventy four

627
00:29:17,718 --> 00:29:20,758
Speaker 1: down to fifty eight. I mean, that was twenty two

628
00:29:20,838 --> 00:29:24,118
Speaker 1: percent drop all of a sudden. That's huge. Why, as

629
00:29:24,198 --> 00:29:27,998
Speaker 1: you said, Joe, the team's no longer valued that sixth inning.

630
00:29:28,598 --> 00:29:30,198
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of reasons for that. You can

631
00:29:30,198 --> 00:29:32,638
Speaker 1: start with the third time around metric. All these teams

632
00:29:32,638 --> 00:29:34,318
Speaker 1: bought into the idea that I'd rather have a fresh

633
00:29:34,438 --> 00:29:36,358
Speaker 1: armor at the bullpen facing a guy a third time

634
00:29:36,398 --> 00:29:39,158
Speaker 1: than my starting pitcher. The idea that, as you mentioned here,

635
00:29:39,198 --> 00:29:41,838
Speaker 1: teams are putting tremendous emphasis on swing and miss. So

636
00:29:41,878 --> 00:29:43,558
Speaker 1: the pitchers out there are not trying to get out.

637
00:29:43,878 --> 00:29:46,118
Speaker 1: He's trying to get people to swing and miss. And

638
00:29:46,158 --> 00:29:48,838
Speaker 1: the irony of that is on offense, teams weren't really

639
00:29:48,878 --> 00:29:51,038
Speaker 1: caring if guys swing a miss. I never understood that

640
00:29:51,158 --> 00:29:54,078
Speaker 1: they chase swing a miss on defense, but on offense

641
00:29:54,118 --> 00:29:56,038
Speaker 1: it was like, oh, that's okay. It didn't make any

642
00:29:56,038 --> 00:29:59,718
Speaker 1: sense in terms of consistency. So anyway, the industry really

643
00:29:59,718 --> 00:30:02,398
Speaker 1: did deemphasize the ability to take the ball deep into

644
00:30:02,438 --> 00:30:04,558
Speaker 1: a game, and you see that as with pinch counts

645
00:30:04,558 --> 00:30:06,398
Speaker 1: as well. I mean, a manager is going to get

646
00:30:06,638 --> 00:30:08,838
Speaker 1: just absolutely destroyed if he lets a guy throw one

647
00:30:08,878 --> 00:30:10,958
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty pitches in the game. These days, it

648
00:30:10,958 --> 00:30:13,278
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if the guy's throwing well, it doesn't matter

649
00:30:13,278 --> 00:30:15,758
Speaker 1: if he's still in his delivery. He's going to hear

650
00:30:15,798 --> 00:30:17,318
Speaker 1: it for the media. He's going to hear it. So

651
00:30:17,638 --> 00:30:19,238
Speaker 1: you know, to me, Joe, part of that is just

652
00:30:19,278 --> 00:30:21,598
Speaker 1: the kind of the technology and all the information that

653
00:30:21,638 --> 00:30:25,078
Speaker 1: teams were going on that's really was driving decisions.

654
00:30:25,238 --> 00:30:27,278
Speaker 3: Yeah, and how many World Series did all these third

655
00:30:27,318 --> 00:30:28,878
Speaker 3: time through advocates win?

656
00:30:29,158 --> 00:30:31,318
Speaker 2: I mean, are not going the third time through advocates win.

657
00:30:31,358 --> 00:30:34,878
Speaker 3: It's listen, you could subtract every analytical metric there is

658
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:36,958
Speaker 3: and throw out there and play baseball and you're going

659
00:30:36,998 --> 00:30:39,238
Speaker 3: to get a really fun product and you're still going

660
00:30:39,318 --> 00:30:41,878
Speaker 3: to get The Dodgers winning, regardless with metrics or not.

661
00:30:42,278 --> 00:30:44,718
Speaker 3: Analytics are not because they have the best players. So

662
00:30:44,838 --> 00:30:47,598
Speaker 3: regardless of the system in play with third time through

663
00:30:47,718 --> 00:30:50,558
Speaker 3: or not, chase the strikeout or not, velocity or not

664
00:30:50,958 --> 00:30:54,278
Speaker 3: permit stolen basis or not, the team with the best players,

665
00:30:54,278 --> 00:30:56,518
Speaker 3: the best scouting and development group, the guys that get

666
00:30:56,518 --> 00:30:58,758
Speaker 3: the best guys in the clubhouse are still going to win.

667
00:30:59,278 --> 00:31:01,638
Speaker 3: But right now, the flavor of the month is to

668
00:31:01,638 --> 00:31:04,998
Speaker 3: break our game down analytically and speaking of it as

669
00:31:05,078 --> 00:31:06,958
Speaker 3: though it's the only way to do this, and like

670
00:31:07,118 --> 00:31:10,318
Speaker 3: everything done in the past is superfluous. Why did it

671
00:31:10,358 --> 00:31:13,118
Speaker 3: ever happen that way? And I cannot disagree with that more.

672
00:31:13,238 --> 00:31:17,238
Speaker 3: We have now become a real baseball folk, the old

673
00:31:17,238 --> 00:31:19,598
Speaker 3: school kind of guy, so have become the radicals and

674
00:31:20,158 --> 00:31:23,198
Speaker 3: the new school the analytical group would become the conservatives.

675
00:31:23,358 --> 00:31:25,758
Speaker 3: It's really flipped from back in like the early two

676
00:31:25,758 --> 00:31:30,918
Speaker 3: thousands when analytical world was looking through the window in

677
00:31:30,998 --> 00:31:34,998
Speaker 3: to the old baseball group, which was the conservative group,

678
00:31:35,038 --> 00:31:37,198
Speaker 3: the group that had kind of pretty much in charge

679
00:31:37,198 --> 00:31:39,478
Speaker 3: of how the game was run. And now it's completely opposite.

680
00:31:39,638 --> 00:31:43,318
Speaker 3: So now I'm saying we because I do advocate for

681
00:31:43,358 --> 00:31:45,998
Speaker 3: a lot of the old school tendencies, although I, like

682
00:31:46,038 --> 00:31:48,678
Speaker 3: I said before, the defense, I would not want my

683
00:31:48,718 --> 00:31:50,758
Speaker 3: defense to be put any other way except that of driven.

684
00:31:50,918 --> 00:31:53,918
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, man, that's regardless

685
00:31:53,958 --> 00:31:59,478
Speaker 3: of the methods incorporated, whether they have technology or lack technology,

686
00:31:59,718 --> 00:32:01,038
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, the group with the

687
00:32:01,078 --> 00:32:03,718
Speaker 3: better baseball players is going to win. And I'll say

688
00:32:03,758 --> 00:32:06,278
Speaker 3: this to the group with the better coaches, guys that

689
00:32:06,358 --> 00:32:13,158
Speaker 3: could identify real baseball ability mechanics technique with their eyeballs

690
00:32:13,318 --> 00:32:16,158
Speaker 3: in real time, that group has an advantage.

691
00:32:15,718 --> 00:32:17,638
Speaker 1: To Yeah, we talk about it all the time, Joe.

692
00:32:17,718 --> 00:32:20,598
Speaker 1: It's the balance, right. You need the humanities as well

693
00:32:20,638 --> 00:32:23,918
Speaker 1: as the science. And I think teams make mistakes when

694
00:32:23,918 --> 00:32:26,638
Speaker 1: they don't honor the art of the game baseball as

695
00:32:26,718 --> 00:32:29,318
Speaker 1: much as we love to kind of figure it out.

696
00:32:29,318 --> 00:32:33,238
Speaker 1: The percentages and the data is amazing. We all love it,

697
00:32:33,358 --> 00:32:36,678
Speaker 1: but you better honor the art artistic side of the game.

698
00:32:37,038 --> 00:32:40,918
Speaker 1: Baseball is like great music, it's like great writing, it's

699
00:32:40,998 --> 00:32:44,598
Speaker 1: like great drama. There's something there that can't be quantified,

700
00:32:44,638 --> 00:32:46,838
Speaker 1: and you have to honor that. I'm not saying you

701
00:32:46,878 --> 00:32:49,558
Speaker 1: go hole in on that and just go everything by gut,

702
00:32:49,838 --> 00:32:52,278
Speaker 1: but you better have a good balance. And you mentioned

703
00:32:52,278 --> 00:32:54,398
Speaker 1: the word mechanics, Joe, and I want to touch on

704
00:32:54,478 --> 00:32:57,638
Speaker 1: that real quickly here, And because this is interesting to me,

705
00:32:57,878 --> 00:33:01,198
Speaker 1: I can see guys now with poor mechanics who are

706
00:33:01,198 --> 00:33:04,318
Speaker 1: breakdowns waiting to happen. And it's not a surprise when

707
00:33:04,398 --> 00:33:09,238
Speaker 1: Johann Santana or Steven Strasburg or Mark Pryor or Jamison

708
00:33:09,278 --> 00:33:13,158
Speaker 1: Tai on breakdown. You can see that there's obvious flaws

709
00:33:13,158 --> 00:33:15,238
Speaker 1: in their deliveries. I can see young pitchers who go

710
00:33:15,278 --> 00:33:17,678
Speaker 1: out there, you know they're just not going to hold up.

711
00:33:17,918 --> 00:33:20,318
Speaker 1: There's certain ways, and you mentioned this, especially being a

712
00:33:20,398 --> 00:33:22,398
Speaker 1: late loader, where you don't have the ball raise to

713
00:33:22,438 --> 00:33:25,398
Speaker 1: the loading position before your front foot lands, you're going

714
00:33:25,438 --> 00:33:27,078
Speaker 1: to break down. It's going to show up on your

715
00:33:27,078 --> 00:33:29,758
Speaker 1: shoulder and eventually show up in your elbow. We know

716
00:33:29,878 --> 00:33:32,438
Speaker 1: these things we can measure these things, and data actually

717
00:33:32,438 --> 00:33:35,038
Speaker 1: can really help there too. My point is that there

718
00:33:35,038 --> 00:33:38,318
Speaker 1: are fewer guys now who have poor mechanics. I think

719
00:33:38,358 --> 00:33:40,358
Speaker 1: what's happened here and again I've talked with the people

720
00:33:40,358 --> 00:33:43,558
Speaker 1: at ASMI about this. We've done a really good job

721
00:33:43,638 --> 00:33:47,558
Speaker 1: identifying what good mechanics are. And in fact, I know

722
00:33:47,598 --> 00:33:49,038
Speaker 1: the Cubs are one of the teams and many of

723
00:33:49,078 --> 00:33:51,078
Speaker 1: them they have three D imaging in the course of

724
00:33:51,078 --> 00:33:53,398
Speaker 1: a game where they can actually see where your body's

725
00:33:53,438 --> 00:33:55,998
Speaker 1: getting outside of the delivery and measure kind of the

726
00:33:56,038 --> 00:33:58,958
Speaker 1: stresses that you're putting on your arm by maybe lowering

727
00:33:58,958 --> 00:34:02,038
Speaker 1: your arm slot or loading the ball late. Those things

728
00:34:02,038 --> 00:34:04,158
Speaker 1: we can actually measure, we know that we see it.

729
00:34:04,238 --> 00:34:06,758
Speaker 1: So people are going out there actually with better mechanics

730
00:34:06,798 --> 00:34:10,198
Speaker 1: I think than ever before. But that's the rub. What's

731
00:34:10,278 --> 00:34:13,878
Speaker 1: happening now is that it's more velocity the mechanics that's

732
00:34:13,878 --> 00:34:17,478
Speaker 1: becoming That reason why guys are breaking down, because we've

733
00:34:17,518 --> 00:34:21,278
Speaker 1: trained guys to throw more efficients efficiently, and that means

734
00:34:21,278 --> 00:34:24,278
Speaker 1: they're throwing harder, and that means the stress on the

735
00:34:24,318 --> 00:34:26,398
Speaker 1: ligaments is greater. You can train it as hard as

736
00:34:26,398 --> 00:34:28,718
Speaker 1: you can. You can strengthen your body as much as

737
00:34:28,758 --> 00:34:30,958
Speaker 1: you can. You can perfect your mechanics. What you can't

738
00:34:30,958 --> 00:34:34,558
Speaker 1: do is make your ligament super strong. That's a limit

739
00:34:34,598 --> 00:34:36,358
Speaker 1: to what you can do. What we're doing is we're

740
00:34:36,398 --> 00:34:40,678
Speaker 1: stretching the length of how far we can push those

741
00:34:40,718 --> 00:34:45,118
Speaker 1: ligaments because we have better mechanics, we have bigger muscles.

742
00:34:45,678 --> 00:34:50,078
Speaker 1: That's all winding up with stress unligament. So actually, I

743
00:34:50,158 --> 00:34:53,078
Speaker 1: think mechanics actually now has been figured out, I don't

744
00:34:53,118 --> 00:34:55,678
Speaker 1: want to say mastered, but across the industry a much

745
00:34:55,678 --> 00:34:58,038
Speaker 1: better job of figuring out who's got good mechanics, who's

746
00:34:58,038 --> 00:35:00,238
Speaker 1: got bad mechanics, how to fix those things. But it

747
00:35:00,278 --> 00:35:03,678
Speaker 1: does present now in basically putting more stress on the

748
00:35:03,798 --> 00:35:05,718
Speaker 1: arm because you figure out a way to throw harder.

749
00:35:06,238 --> 00:35:07,798
Speaker 3: Well, you were just talking about it. We were I

750
00:35:07,798 --> 00:35:09,518
Speaker 3: don't think we were actually recording at the time when

751
00:35:09,518 --> 00:35:12,038
Speaker 3: you were talking about you wish you had the ability

752
00:35:12,078 --> 00:35:15,478
Speaker 3: to listen to Ricky Fowler and his coach talk on

753
00:35:15,518 --> 00:35:19,878
Speaker 3: the practice tee right, same thing. You'd love to hear

754
00:35:19,958 --> 00:35:22,918
Speaker 3: a good hitting coach talk to his hitter in the

755
00:35:22,958 --> 00:35:25,518
Speaker 3: around the batting cage and see what that's all about.

756
00:35:25,518 --> 00:35:27,358
Speaker 3: When it comes down to mechanics. You'd love to listen

757
00:35:27,398 --> 00:35:30,678
Speaker 3: to an outstanding pitching coach, and I had the privilege

758
00:35:30,718 --> 00:35:33,518
Speaker 3: to do that work with a pitcher in a bullpen

759
00:35:33,598 --> 00:35:36,758
Speaker 3: session for about fifteen, twenty or twenty five minutes. To me,

760
00:35:36,918 --> 00:35:39,958
Speaker 3: that's really at the that's where it's all happening, because

761
00:35:39,998 --> 00:35:42,798
Speaker 3: when the game occurs, and listen, agreed, I mean, you

762
00:35:42,838 --> 00:35:45,678
Speaker 3: want to get all of this stuff down as properly

763
00:35:45,718 --> 00:35:49,958
Speaker 3: as you can, regarding mechanics, all that stuff in your workouts, whatever.

764
00:35:50,238 --> 00:35:52,278
Speaker 3: You want to get that away from the maddening crowd

765
00:35:52,798 --> 00:35:55,518
Speaker 3: as you practice. But when it comes to the game,

766
00:35:55,718 --> 00:35:57,798
Speaker 3: you want to eliminator stay away. And that's all I

767
00:35:57,838 --> 00:36:01,198
Speaker 3: hear about talking about putting. The best putters see the hole,

768
00:36:01,318 --> 00:36:03,558
Speaker 3: get over the ball, eyeball this thing up and hit

769
00:36:03,598 --> 00:36:03,998
Speaker 3: the ball.

770
00:36:04,038 --> 00:36:04,838
Speaker 2: It goes in a hole.

771
00:36:05,558 --> 00:36:08,198
Speaker 3: Everybody talks about being athletic and just letting things occur,

772
00:36:08,278 --> 00:36:10,478
Speaker 3: just let anything happen, being in the moment, But then

773
00:36:10,958 --> 00:36:14,678
Speaker 3: we're always preaching all this other stuff simultaneously. I love

774
00:36:14,958 --> 00:36:17,118
Speaker 3: having coaches, like I said, I don't know how many

775
00:36:17,118 --> 00:36:20,278
Speaker 3: times I've said it, but in the dugout able to

776
00:36:20,398 --> 00:36:23,398
Speaker 3: influence Tom Braducci during the game by reminding you with

777
00:36:23,478 --> 00:36:26,758
Speaker 3: one word, one thought. One thing that's going to get

778
00:36:26,798 --> 00:36:28,238
Speaker 3: you to go up in the box the next time

779
00:36:28,438 --> 00:36:30,918
Speaker 3: and perform. And the same thing in a hot moment

780
00:36:30,918 --> 00:36:32,438
Speaker 3: when I go out to talk to you on the mound.

781
00:36:32,918 --> 00:36:36,878
Speaker 3: Just one little nugget, a nugget, not this whole soliloquy

782
00:36:36,918 --> 00:36:39,358
Speaker 3: or diatribe regarding how to get this thing done. That's

783
00:36:39,358 --> 00:36:43,878
Speaker 3: where he win man, that's the winning group right there. Yes, goad,

784
00:36:43,878 --> 00:36:46,958
Speaker 3: be as complicated as you want hours or days before

785
00:36:46,998 --> 00:36:49,598
Speaker 3: the event, but when the event actually occurs, make it

786
00:36:49,638 --> 00:36:50,678
Speaker 3: as simple as possible.

787
00:36:50,838 --> 00:36:52,798
Speaker 1: Yeah, well said Joe. And just to put a bow

788
00:36:52,878 --> 00:36:55,118
Speaker 1: on it. You know, we mentioned at the top, there's

789
00:36:55,158 --> 00:36:57,558
Speaker 1: not one reason why this is happening. Picture's breaking down

790
00:36:57,718 --> 00:37:00,518
Speaker 1: around the game. But just be prepared, folks. This is

791
00:37:00,518 --> 00:37:03,118
Speaker 1: what the game is right now. Unless there's some kind

792
00:37:03,158 --> 00:37:06,158
Speaker 1: of philosophical change about how they want pitchers to pitch

793
00:37:06,318 --> 00:37:08,958
Speaker 1: and approach the craft of pitching, it's going to continue

794
00:37:08,958 --> 00:37:10,518
Speaker 1: to happen. The game is built right now to have

795
00:37:10,558 --> 00:37:14,398
Speaker 1: pitchers pitch less, but pitch harder, put more strain. They're

796
00:37:14,398 --> 00:37:17,878
Speaker 1: throwing more breaking balls, They're finishing their pitches with more effort.

797
00:37:18,078 --> 00:37:20,238
Speaker 1: They're trying to get swings and misses. All these things

798
00:37:20,278 --> 00:37:22,798
Speaker 1: are adding up. So as much as baseball is guarding

799
00:37:22,838 --> 00:37:27,398
Speaker 1: it against the overuse factor as an injury factor, what's

800
00:37:27,398 --> 00:37:30,718
Speaker 1: happening is the chase of velocity, of spin of swing

801
00:37:30,758 --> 00:37:34,478
Speaker 1: and miss is exacerbating the problem because it does require

802
00:37:34,558 --> 00:37:36,958
Speaker 1: more effort. I do not see that changing, and I

803
00:37:36,958 --> 00:37:40,318
Speaker 1: think the industry has accepted that as a price of

804
00:37:40,358 --> 00:37:41,598
Speaker 1: how the game is played.

805
00:37:41,598 --> 00:37:41,798
Speaker 2: Now.

806
00:37:41,838 --> 00:37:44,478
Speaker 1: If I were a pitcher, I know what I'm signing into.

807
00:37:44,598 --> 00:37:47,758
Speaker 1: It's a dangerous job. You know that going in, and

808
00:37:48,438 --> 00:37:50,278
Speaker 1: you hope you can stay healthy enough to make that

809
00:37:50,598 --> 00:37:53,318
Speaker 1: first big contract. Joe, we're going to take a quick break.

810
00:37:53,318 --> 00:37:55,078
Speaker 1: When we get back, I want to ask you about

811
00:37:55,318 --> 00:37:58,398
Speaker 1: one of your old teams, the Cubs, and their signing

812
00:37:58,398 --> 00:38:01,118
Speaker 1: of Cody Bellinger, which I thought was really fascinating. Are

813
00:38:01,158 --> 00:38:04,198
Speaker 1: the Cubs the favorites in the National League Central this year?

814
00:38:04,598 --> 00:38:18,878
Speaker 1: We'll tackle that question right after this, Joe. I remember

815
00:38:18,918 --> 00:38:21,758
Speaker 1: I was actually in your camp this day when Dexter

816
00:38:21,958 --> 00:38:26,638
Speaker 1: Fowler re signed with the Cubs in twenty sixteen. And

817
00:38:27,078 --> 00:38:30,678
Speaker 1: I've got just an incredible bit of synchronicity for you

818
00:38:30,758 --> 00:38:34,398
Speaker 1: because it was on the same day, February twenty fifth,

819
00:38:34,998 --> 00:38:39,318
Speaker 1: that the Cubs this year signed Cody Bellinger. I mean,

820
00:38:39,358 --> 00:38:41,518
Speaker 1: you can't make this stuff up, right. I was twenty

821
00:38:41,558 --> 00:38:44,998
Speaker 1: sixteen when Dexter walked into camp. He was the perfect compliment.

822
00:38:45,078 --> 00:38:46,878
Speaker 1: He was the missing piece, you know that, Joe. I

823
00:38:46,878 --> 00:38:49,998
Speaker 1: mean just his energy, his ability as a leadoff hitter.

824
00:38:50,758 --> 00:38:53,438
Speaker 1: And I feel kind of the same way about Cody Bellinger,

825
00:38:53,438 --> 00:38:56,158
Speaker 1: who obviously his skill sets a little bit differently, but

826
00:38:56,358 --> 00:38:58,518
Speaker 1: I think he's sort of that missing piece that makes

827
00:38:58,558 --> 00:39:04,478
Speaker 1: the team feel complete. So real quick, your thoughts first

828
00:39:04,518 --> 00:39:07,598
Speaker 1: on you know what Dexter Fowler that's signing meant for

829
00:39:07,638 --> 00:39:10,758
Speaker 1: you that day, and what possibly what Cody Bellinger means

830
00:39:10,798 --> 00:39:11,638
Speaker 1: for the Cubs this year.

831
00:39:11,918 --> 00:39:14,558
Speaker 3: Well, Dexter was the outlet. He's who you plugged into.

832
00:39:15,078 --> 00:39:18,518
Speaker 3: He was that important to that particular group. I don't

833
00:39:18,518 --> 00:39:20,598
Speaker 3: know Cody that well, I don't know him at all, actually,

834
00:39:20,798 --> 00:39:23,878
Speaker 3: but I kind of gather from listening to what the

835
00:39:23,918 --> 00:39:27,758
Speaker 3: players that said, primarily that they kind of viume in

836
00:39:27,798 --> 00:39:30,238
Speaker 3: the same kind of light. Just speaking for Dexter, though,

837
00:39:30,278 --> 00:39:34,718
Speaker 3: I know on a daily basis, with that smile meant

838
00:39:34,718 --> 00:39:37,118
Speaker 3: to the entire group, with that energy meant to the

839
00:39:37,238 --> 00:39:41,798
Speaker 3: entire group. The thing about Dexter. Also, I guess Cody

840
00:39:41,878 --> 00:39:43,798
Speaker 3: might have this too. He could go through some bad moments.

841
00:39:44,118 --> 00:39:46,678
Speaker 3: Dexad go through some really bad moments at the plate,

842
00:39:46,798 --> 00:39:49,878
Speaker 3: rollover swing and miss call third strikes. Who's big on

843
00:39:49,918 --> 00:39:52,638
Speaker 3: call third strikes as he had a discipline zone. He

844
00:39:52,678 --> 00:39:54,798
Speaker 3: was trying to gather his walks too, So he'd go

845
00:39:54,838 --> 00:39:57,798
Speaker 3: through some bad moments, but it never would impact him.

846
00:39:58,118 --> 00:40:00,278
Speaker 3: He'd always show up the same cat regardless, and that

847
00:40:00,398 --> 00:40:02,718
Speaker 3: was a big, huge part. And then when he got.

848
00:40:02,518 --> 00:40:03,838
Speaker 2: Hot, man, he got hot.

849
00:40:04,398 --> 00:40:06,558
Speaker 3: He got hot, he get in SENDI area, and this

850
00:40:06,598 --> 00:40:09,158
Speaker 3: guy could carry for a long time. The thing about

851
00:40:09,198 --> 00:40:11,118
Speaker 3: Bellinger again, and I don't know this, but you know

852
00:40:11,158 --> 00:40:12,798
Speaker 3: he has. Yes, I'm swing with holes in, but so

853
00:40:12,878 --> 00:40:19,158
Speaker 3: did Dexter. There's there's probably some identifiable similarities right there too. Defensively, Yeah,

854
00:40:19,238 --> 00:40:22,358
Speaker 3: you might even argue that metrically that Bellinger is possibly

855
00:40:22,398 --> 00:40:25,278
Speaker 3: a better outfielder with a greater range possibly, but he

856
00:40:25,278 --> 00:40:27,478
Speaker 3: could also play kind of a nice first base that

857
00:40:27,518 --> 00:40:29,318
Speaker 3: he's got a lot of value with that he could

858
00:40:29,398 --> 00:40:30,998
Speaker 3: run what he wants to. There is there's a lot

859
00:40:31,038 --> 00:40:34,238
Speaker 3: of similarities there are. I just don't know the personality

860
00:40:34,238 --> 00:40:37,518
Speaker 3: as well, because I know A big part of Dexter's

861
00:40:37,638 --> 00:40:40,758
Speaker 3: value to that group was probably, like I'm just as

862
00:40:40,758 --> 00:40:43,078
Speaker 3: we're talking out loud here, I could almost grade them

863
00:40:43,198 --> 00:40:48,918
Speaker 3: very similar in a similar fashion regarding hit, hit with power, speed, defense, arm,

864
00:40:48,958 --> 00:40:52,198
Speaker 3: et cetera. Except Cody had the other position. But then

865
00:40:52,198 --> 00:40:56,158
Speaker 3: it comes down to that thing that what he got inside?

866
00:40:56,238 --> 00:40:58,318
Speaker 3: What do you passing out every day when somebody walks

867
00:40:58,358 --> 00:41:01,558
Speaker 3: by you, could they grab onto that you kind of

868
00:41:01,558 --> 00:41:04,358
Speaker 3: inspire them or pick them up just by there and

869
00:41:04,398 --> 00:41:07,198
Speaker 3: being you. That's the part of Bellinger. I don't know,

870
00:41:07,278 --> 00:41:09,638
Speaker 3: but I guess if you wanted to, as a Scotch,

871
00:41:09,638 --> 00:41:11,198
Speaker 3: you can break it down being pretty close.

872
00:41:11,558 --> 00:41:14,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting he brought up defense. Dexter was out

873
00:41:14,398 --> 00:41:16,358
Speaker 1: there at that time as a free agent. I think

874
00:41:16,358 --> 00:41:19,558
Speaker 1: he was close with signing with the Baltimore Orioles. Didn't

875
00:41:19,558 --> 00:41:21,478
Speaker 1: have a great market out there. Wound up coming back

876
00:41:21,518 --> 00:41:23,038
Speaker 1: to the Cubs on a one year deal with an

877
00:41:23,078 --> 00:41:26,558
Speaker 1: option for eight million dollars. The word on Dexter back

878
00:41:26,598 --> 00:41:31,038
Speaker 1: then was that his defense was poor, and listen, defensive

879
00:41:31,078 --> 00:41:35,478
Speaker 1: metrics are notoriously fickle. I mean, I never understood how

880
00:41:35,558 --> 00:41:37,798
Speaker 1: Yadi Molina could be a plus defender one year at

881
00:41:37,838 --> 00:41:40,838
Speaker 1: a negative defender the next But that's what metrics show you,

882
00:41:40,958 --> 00:41:43,878
Speaker 1: right And for Dexter, you know, he was coming off

883
00:41:43,918 --> 00:41:46,638
Speaker 1: a year in twenty fifteen where defensive runs saved had

884
00:41:46,718 --> 00:41:50,918
Speaker 1: him well below average, a minus fifteen defender, and in

885
00:41:50,998 --> 00:41:54,558
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen he wounds up being a plus defender plus one.

886
00:41:55,038 --> 00:41:58,518
Speaker 1: And if I remember correctly, Joe, you the Cubs positioned

887
00:41:58,598 --> 00:42:02,198
Speaker 1: him deeper in center field and that improved his metrics.

888
00:42:02,238 --> 00:42:04,078
Speaker 1: I know Brandon Nimo has done that with the New

889
00:42:04,158 --> 00:42:06,878
Speaker 1: York Mets. Nimo is not a great defender, but when

890
00:42:06,918 --> 00:42:11,558
Speaker 1: you play deeper, you're taking away some possible extra base hits,

891
00:42:11,638 --> 00:42:13,358
Speaker 1: You're allowing some of the balls to drop in front

892
00:42:13,398 --> 00:42:16,958
Speaker 1: of you, and the defensive metrics actually like that. So

893
00:42:17,038 --> 00:42:20,918
Speaker 1: I've seen players like Nimo play deeper and the defensive

894
00:42:20,958 --> 00:42:23,638
Speaker 1: metrics improved. But that was the knock on Dexter back then.

895
00:42:23,678 --> 00:42:27,758
Speaker 1: And I think hopefully the organizations have gotten a little

896
00:42:27,798 --> 00:42:31,998
Speaker 1: farther away from putting so much stock in these defensive metrics,

897
00:42:32,118 --> 00:42:33,758
Speaker 1: especially on a year to year basis.

898
00:42:33,878 --> 00:42:36,518
Speaker 3: On the money, just write a note down depth.

899
00:42:36,678 --> 00:42:37,238
Speaker 2: That was it.

900
00:42:38,318 --> 00:42:40,958
Speaker 3: He came into my office and I went over to everything.

901
00:42:40,958 --> 00:42:43,678
Speaker 3: You just talked about listen, you know the numbers. Actually,

902
00:42:43,718 --> 00:42:45,158
Speaker 3: I think I said, listen, if you really want to

903
00:42:45,198 --> 00:42:48,878
Speaker 3: make yourself more attractive this year contract wise, analytically speaking,

904
00:42:49,198 --> 00:42:50,998
Speaker 3: just do me a favor and play deeper. Do yourself

905
00:42:50,998 --> 00:42:53,678
Speaker 3: a favor and play deeper. Cause the thing about that,

906
00:42:53,958 --> 00:42:56,238
Speaker 3: I've had that with Nick Castillanos too, with the Cubs.

907
00:42:56,238 --> 00:42:59,758
Speaker 3: Get Castellanos, get him into big trade. He comes there,

908
00:43:00,318 --> 00:43:02,798
Speaker 3: and then I get like, they're the projected week's worth

909
00:43:02,798 --> 00:43:06,038
Speaker 3: of lineups from them, and the analytical guys didn't even

910
00:43:06,038 --> 00:43:08,558
Speaker 3: have them starting because they didn't like his defense, And I.

911
00:43:08,438 --> 00:43:10,038
Speaker 2: Think, what are we talking about her?

912
00:43:10,118 --> 00:43:12,798
Speaker 3: So I queried them, I said, Okay, what don't you

913
00:43:12,918 --> 00:43:14,038
Speaker 3: like about his defense?

914
00:43:14,078 --> 00:43:14,478
Speaker 2: Talk to me?

915
00:43:14,478 --> 00:43:18,438
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking, you know, they're gonna throw some technical stuff,

916
00:43:18,478 --> 00:43:21,518
Speaker 3: I mean analytical stuff mechanically like doesn't go to his

917
00:43:21,598 --> 00:43:24,558
Speaker 3: right well, doesn't go to his left well, is hesitant

918
00:43:24,638 --> 00:43:27,358
Speaker 3: coming in, whatever that might be. But there wasn't any.

919
00:43:27,198 --> 00:43:29,518
Speaker 3: They just showed me video of like a couple of

920
00:43:29,558 --> 00:43:31,878
Speaker 3: balls falling in front of him, like playing in Detroit

921
00:43:32,038 --> 00:43:35,398
Speaker 3: with that vast right center field gap right there. Dexter

922
00:43:35,798 --> 00:43:39,318
Speaker 3: played in Colorado. That's playing Yellowstone. That's Yellowstone center field

923
00:43:39,398 --> 00:43:39,638
Speaker 3: right there.

924
00:43:39,638 --> 00:43:40,238
Speaker 2: It's huge.

925
00:43:40,558 --> 00:43:43,518
Speaker 3: So when it comes down to if you want guys

926
00:43:43,518 --> 00:43:45,878
Speaker 3: with good metrics just saying that they're kind of have

927
00:43:45,958 --> 00:43:50,158
Speaker 3: average ability on defense in the major leagues position and better,

928
00:43:50,598 --> 00:43:54,038
Speaker 3: it really comes down to again talk. I've been complimentary

929
00:43:54,078 --> 00:43:56,998
Speaker 3: of the defense setups because and I will be because

930
00:43:56,998 --> 00:43:59,478
Speaker 3: I think they're accurate. But when it comes to when

931
00:43:59,478 --> 00:44:03,198
Speaker 3: a guy is not considered good, I'd break it down

932
00:44:03,198 --> 00:44:05,838
Speaker 3: to my analytic well, where are we starting this guy from,

933
00:44:06,438 --> 00:44:08,478
Speaker 3: where are we having him set up? And how does

934
00:44:08,478 --> 00:44:11,158
Speaker 3: that speak to him getting two more balls more consistently

935
00:44:11,598 --> 00:44:13,238
Speaker 3: based on where you think the ball is going to

936
00:44:13,238 --> 00:44:15,278
Speaker 3: be hit. I've always thought that was a big part

937
00:44:15,278 --> 00:44:17,918
Speaker 3: of it. So just something as easy as playing more

938
00:44:17,958 --> 00:44:20,718
Speaker 3: deeply all of a sudden that adds value to your

939
00:44:20,718 --> 00:44:23,518
Speaker 3: contract the next year without one day or two days

940
00:44:23,598 --> 00:44:27,318
Speaker 3: or a week of extra work defense coach on fungo,

941
00:44:27,438 --> 00:44:29,918
Speaker 3: working on your first step, toyear right, your drop step, whatever,

942
00:44:30,118 --> 00:44:32,558
Speaker 3: had nothing to do with it. Just play deeper, and

943
00:44:32,598 --> 00:44:34,478
Speaker 3: that's kind of the folly of all that.

944
00:44:34,878 --> 00:44:37,598
Speaker 1: Now about Bellinger, I'm curious your take on this. Joe,

945
00:44:37,678 --> 00:44:39,598
Speaker 1: you know a lot about hitting. I know the industry

946
00:44:39,838 --> 00:44:43,078
Speaker 1: was not sold that Cody Bellinger had completely turned a corner.

947
00:44:43,118 --> 00:44:45,118
Speaker 1: He had a three year period there with the Dodgers,

948
00:44:45,158 --> 00:44:47,078
Speaker 1: and I know part of it was the shoulder injury,

949
00:44:47,118 --> 00:44:50,198
Speaker 1: but he had two nine and was basically a strikeout

950
00:44:50,238 --> 00:44:52,838
Speaker 1: waiting to happen a three year period. Last year he

951
00:44:52,878 --> 00:44:55,398
Speaker 1: signed with the Cubs. He started working in the offseason.

952
00:44:55,438 --> 00:44:59,038
Speaker 1: He lives in Arizona, right by the Cubs facility. Really

953
00:44:59,078 --> 00:45:02,238
Speaker 1: made some I don't want to say drastic swing changes,

954
00:45:02,278 --> 00:45:04,598
Speaker 1: but I loved what he did rod more on his

955
00:45:04,598 --> 00:45:08,078
Speaker 1: back hit. He got himself started earlier, got the bat

956
00:45:08,118 --> 00:45:10,198
Speaker 1: in a better position earlier. Cody was a guy who

957
00:45:10,278 --> 00:45:13,238
Speaker 1: got by on such great batspeed. I never saw a

958
00:45:13,238 --> 00:45:16,798
Speaker 1: player who could wait to move any part of his

959
00:45:16,878 --> 00:45:20,398
Speaker 1: swing as late as Cody Bellinger could. Eventually it caught

960
00:45:20,478 --> 00:45:23,038
Speaker 1: up to him. He became to me a much better

961
00:45:23,118 --> 00:45:25,678
Speaker 1: hitter last year. Was he the same power hit or

962
00:45:25,678 --> 00:45:28,318
Speaker 1: he was in twenty nineteen. No, I think it's a

963
00:45:28,358 --> 00:45:31,598
Speaker 1: lot of ways. He was the better hitter. Only Luis Reyes,

964
00:45:31,718 --> 00:45:35,358
Speaker 1: who was like this generation's Ride Carew, was better hitting

965
00:45:35,358 --> 00:45:37,558
Speaker 1: with two strikes than Cody Bellinger. He was a guy

966
00:45:37,598 --> 00:45:39,358
Speaker 1: you could flip the ball up there with two strikes

967
00:45:39,358 --> 00:45:40,838
Speaker 1: and he would chase it no matter what. He was

968
00:45:40,838 --> 00:45:43,798
Speaker 1: a strikeout waiting to happen. So I saw him make

969
00:45:43,838 --> 00:45:47,438
Speaker 1: adjustments to me that were very real, and I loved

970
00:45:47,438 --> 00:45:50,358
Speaker 1: his approach. And now some analytics people are going to say, well,

971
00:45:50,398 --> 00:45:52,918
Speaker 1: you know, look at his exit velocity. His average exit

972
00:45:52,958 --> 00:45:55,678
Speaker 1: ve low was down. Did you watch the guy play?

973
00:45:56,118 --> 00:45:58,598
Speaker 1: Because this guy just carved balls through the infield with

974
00:45:58,638 --> 00:46:00,838
Speaker 1: two strikes, he put the ball in play. That's why

975
00:46:00,878 --> 00:46:03,558
Speaker 1: his exit velocity went down. He was a better hitter

976
00:46:04,078 --> 00:46:07,438
Speaker 1: the lower exit velocity. So my question, Joe, is when

977
00:46:07,478 --> 00:46:10,278
Speaker 1: you look at someone like this who's made some swing changes.

978
00:46:10,718 --> 00:46:13,518
Speaker 1: To me, the industry, by not giving Cody Bellinger that

979
00:46:13,598 --> 00:46:17,078
Speaker 1: eight nine ten year deal, is not convinced that what

980
00:46:17,238 --> 00:46:20,078
Speaker 1: he did is sustainable. The Cubs did a great job

981
00:46:20,158 --> 00:46:22,278
Speaker 1: waiting it out, getting him back on a three year deal.

982
00:46:22,278 --> 00:46:24,638
Speaker 1: It's essentially a one year deal because he can opt

983
00:46:24,678 --> 00:46:27,638
Speaker 1: out after the first and second years, and they wound

984
00:46:27,718 --> 00:46:30,318
Speaker 1: up getting this guy at a very cheap contract based

985
00:46:30,318 --> 00:46:32,678
Speaker 1: to me on what his value was. But the industry

986
00:46:32,718 --> 00:46:34,518
Speaker 1: told me they were not going to eight nine ten

987
00:46:34,558 --> 00:46:37,478
Speaker 1: years for Cody Bellinger. They saw risk there for you

988
00:46:37,518 --> 00:46:39,518
Speaker 1: as you break down hitters and you see guys who

989
00:46:39,638 --> 00:46:42,638
Speaker 1: make changes, how do you decide what you believe is

990
00:46:42,638 --> 00:46:44,998
Speaker 1: sustainable or not? Because this guy has done it in

991
00:46:44,998 --> 00:46:46,918
Speaker 1: the big leagues, it's not like he's never done it

992
00:46:46,998 --> 00:46:48,678
Speaker 1: is Cody Bellinger all the way.

993
00:46:48,478 --> 00:46:50,278
Speaker 2: Back goes down to what do you want.

994
00:46:50,398 --> 00:46:53,118
Speaker 3: You talked about that earlier, you wanted to continually have

995
00:46:53,198 --> 00:46:56,678
Speaker 3: that long uppercut kind of swing that you could identify

996
00:46:56,718 --> 00:47:01,038
Speaker 3: the holes easily. With elevated velocity. He probably still gonna

997
00:47:01,078 --> 00:47:04,638
Speaker 3: have greater exit velocity, possibly hit probably absolutely hit more

998
00:47:04,638 --> 00:47:07,038
Speaker 3: home runs, but he's going to hit right around two

999
00:47:07,118 --> 00:47:09,478
Speaker 3: hundred again, and you're going to be really concerned about

1000
00:47:09,558 --> 00:47:12,358
Speaker 3: all those punch outs. And the pitch ability is very

1001
00:47:12,398 --> 00:47:16,958
Speaker 3: easy to pitch against. You could identify again with today's

1002
00:47:17,318 --> 00:47:21,678
Speaker 3: metrics and data, where to throw a fastball and how

1003
00:47:21,678 --> 00:47:23,558
Speaker 3: hard it needs to be that he cannot catch up

1004
00:47:23,598 --> 00:47:26,918
Speaker 3: to it. That's real easy stuff. So he had to

1005
00:47:26,918 --> 00:47:29,398
Speaker 3: make a choice, and he did. And so I don't

1006
00:47:29,398 --> 00:47:32,118
Speaker 3: know if it was the I would imagine the Cubs

1007
00:47:32,118 --> 00:47:34,278
Speaker 3: played into this somewhat, but it had to be a

1008
00:47:34,278 --> 00:47:36,678
Speaker 3: buying from the player that he knew that I cannot

1009
00:47:36,678 --> 00:47:39,638
Speaker 3: continue this way, because if I do, I'm pretty much

1010
00:47:39,678 --> 00:47:42,758
Speaker 3: done because I cannot catch up the velocity. It's bad

1011
00:47:43,078 --> 00:47:45,278
Speaker 3: when you're in a batters box man, and you know

1012
00:47:45,438 --> 00:47:48,838
Speaker 3: fastball's coming and your prep for the fastball and you

1013
00:47:48,918 --> 00:47:51,198
Speaker 3: see it go right over the top of your bat

1014
00:47:51,358 --> 00:47:53,638
Speaker 3: because you can't get to it. It's a bad feeling, man.

1015
00:47:53,798 --> 00:47:55,278
Speaker 3: So I got to do something about it. And that's

1016
00:47:55,278 --> 00:47:58,038
Speaker 3: what he did. So is it sustainable? Of course, what

1017
00:47:58,078 --> 00:48:01,198
Speaker 3: he's doing I think is sustainable now being because he

1018
00:48:01,238 --> 00:48:02,958
Speaker 3: has kind of tried to level a swing off more.

1019
00:48:02,998 --> 00:48:05,478
Speaker 3: He's trying to stay inside them all more. He's content

1020
00:48:05,558 --> 00:48:08,758
Speaker 3: with with two strikes, making an adaptation of permission to

1021
00:48:08,758 --> 00:48:10,878
Speaker 3: put the ball in play. All those things are I

1022
00:48:10,918 --> 00:48:13,638
Speaker 3: think are sustainable. But then are is it going to

1023
00:48:13,678 --> 00:48:17,958
Speaker 3: be enough for whomever's in charge of the organization to

1024
00:48:18,238 --> 00:48:20,398
Speaker 3: say this is good enough, this is who we're looking for,

1025
00:48:20,518 --> 00:48:22,958
Speaker 3: Because don't forget the guy's a great athlete. Guy could

1026
00:48:22,958 --> 00:48:24,598
Speaker 3: play some defense, he could run, There's a lot of

1027
00:48:24,678 --> 00:48:26,558
Speaker 3: things he can do. So what do you want here?

1028
00:48:26,638 --> 00:48:28,158
Speaker 3: It pretty much comes down to what do you want?

1029
00:48:28,238 --> 00:48:30,438
Speaker 3: I would for my money, I like what he did,

1030
00:48:30,478 --> 00:48:31,838
Speaker 3: and I would stay right there.

1031
00:48:32,478 --> 00:48:33,238
Speaker 2: And what he.

1032
00:48:33,238 --> 00:48:35,638
Speaker 3: Did last year I think is sustainable. There may be

1033
00:48:35,678 --> 00:48:38,598
Speaker 3: the bad luck moments now where that's softly hit ball

1034
00:48:38,678 --> 00:48:41,398
Speaker 3: now is going to get caught. There might be where

1035
00:48:41,438 --> 00:48:43,798
Speaker 3: I suppose it just fell in the outfield grass or

1036
00:48:43,878 --> 00:48:46,878
Speaker 3: between a shortstop and the third basement. Those things may happen,

1037
00:48:46,918 --> 00:48:49,358
Speaker 3: so there might be a fluctuation in numbers based on that,

1038
00:48:49,678 --> 00:48:52,398
Speaker 3: But overall approach, I wouldn't change a thing because if

1039
00:48:52,438 --> 00:48:54,278
Speaker 3: he wants to be and if the Cubs want him

1040
00:48:54,278 --> 00:48:56,758
Speaker 3: to be viable in a sense where they can rely

1041
00:48:56,798 --> 00:48:58,638
Speaker 3: on them for years to come, I'd like to believe

1042
00:48:58,638 --> 00:49:01,438
Speaker 3: that's who he is, and it'd be hard for him

1043
00:49:01,478 --> 00:49:03,358
Speaker 3: to go back to what he had been regarding just

1044
00:49:03,398 --> 00:49:07,198
Speaker 3: trying to be nothing because it just didn't work for him.

1045
00:49:07,318 --> 00:49:10,238
Speaker 3: And he knows his waterloo when it comes to velocity,

1046
00:49:10,278 --> 00:49:12,438
Speaker 3: but so does everybody else, and they know where that

1047
00:49:12,478 --> 00:49:15,078
Speaker 3: velocity needs to be thrown. I like this version of

1048
00:49:15,118 --> 00:49:16,158
Speaker 3: Bell and Joe a lot better.

1049
00:49:16,598 --> 00:49:18,918
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I do think to me, the Cubs are

1050
00:49:18,918 --> 00:49:20,718
Speaker 1: the team to be in the central and I think

1051
00:49:20,718 --> 00:49:22,638
Speaker 1: it's a great race. I don't think they're miles ahead

1052
00:49:22,638 --> 00:49:26,398
Speaker 1: of everybody else, but I do think it's funny Joe.

1053
00:49:26,438 --> 00:49:28,198
Speaker 1: A lot of people were on the Cubs early on

1054
00:49:28,238 --> 00:49:30,838
Speaker 1: what are they doing. Nothing's going on. At the end

1055
00:49:30,838 --> 00:49:32,438
Speaker 1: of the day, they had a really good off season,

1056
00:49:32,558 --> 00:49:34,238
Speaker 1: and they had a really good off season because they

1057
00:49:34,238 --> 00:49:36,318
Speaker 1: were patient. They got the players they wanted at the

1058
00:49:36,318 --> 00:49:39,038
Speaker 1: contracts they wanted. It worked out well for them. Joe,

1059
00:49:39,078 --> 00:49:41,678
Speaker 1: before we go, and I know you always close things

1060
00:49:41,718 --> 00:49:43,678
Speaker 1: out for us, but I got to give you equal

1061
00:49:43,718 --> 00:49:46,358
Speaker 1: time here. I started talking about my nineteen seventy three

1062
00:49:46,438 --> 00:49:49,118
Speaker 1: Plymouth satellite, and I know the book of Joe, we

1063
00:49:49,198 --> 00:49:53,638
Speaker 1: kind of traced the arc of your life really with

1064
00:49:53,838 --> 00:49:56,558
Speaker 1: your ownership of vehicles, which is a book in and

1065
00:49:56,558 --> 00:49:59,358
Speaker 1: of itself. But your first car. You got to let

1066
00:49:59,358 --> 00:50:00,438
Speaker 1: our listeners know about that.

1067
00:50:00,718 --> 00:50:05,318
Speaker 3: Wow, fifty three Chevy. I was a coal mining car.

1068
00:50:05,438 --> 00:50:07,158
Speaker 3: Got it for twenty five bucks. I don't know where

1069
00:50:07,158 --> 00:50:08,678
Speaker 3: my dad found it. What I mean by a coal

1070
00:50:08,718 --> 00:50:11,798
Speaker 3: mining car, whoever owned it worked in the mines and

1071
00:50:12,518 --> 00:50:13,958
Speaker 3: you take out the back seat and you just throw

1072
00:50:13,958 --> 00:50:15,398
Speaker 3: a coal in the back when they come home to

1073
00:50:15,398 --> 00:50:17,598
Speaker 3: heat up the house. So there was black all over

1074
00:50:17,638 --> 00:50:19,878
Speaker 3: the back of that thing. Three on a tree stick,

1075
00:50:19,958 --> 00:50:23,278
Speaker 3: three speed on the column. Twice the brakes failed me

1076
00:50:23,358 --> 00:50:26,718
Speaker 3: once going down Carson Street towards the woods right below

1077
00:50:26,758 --> 00:50:29,238
Speaker 3: twenty second street, had to pull on the wheel hard

1078
00:50:29,278 --> 00:50:31,758
Speaker 3: left to make sure they go into the woods. I

1079
00:50:31,758 --> 00:50:33,638
Speaker 3: can't remember if that was the first or the second time.

1080
00:50:33,638 --> 00:50:37,478
Speaker 3: And in the wintertime tied a door to the front

1081
00:50:37,518 --> 00:50:38,878
Speaker 3: of it so I could use it as a plow,

1082
00:50:39,478 --> 00:50:44,078
Speaker 3: and really on bad days, on really real snowy days,

1083
00:50:44,278 --> 00:50:46,518
Speaker 3: like about midnight one o'clock in the morning, I would

1084
00:50:46,598 --> 00:50:47,038
Speaker 3: drive out.

1085
00:50:47,158 --> 00:50:48,598
Speaker 2: Nobody be on the road but me. I have like

1086
00:50:48,638 --> 00:50:49,438
Speaker 2: these little.

1087
00:50:49,198 --> 00:50:51,398
Speaker 3: Snow tarres with little studs or spikes on them, and

1088
00:50:51,398 --> 00:50:55,038
Speaker 3: I would literally intentionally drive it into snow piles and

1089
00:50:55,038 --> 00:50:56,758
Speaker 3: see if I can get out. There was nobody else

1090
00:50:56,798 --> 00:50:58,518
Speaker 3: on the road. So it's a lot of fun just

1091
00:50:58,518 --> 00:51:00,198
Speaker 3: to do that. No radio, There was no radio on

1092
00:51:00,238 --> 00:51:02,118
Speaker 3: that thing. And I don't even know if the heater

1093
00:51:02,158 --> 00:51:05,478
Speaker 3: worked or not, just hot air coming off the engine.

1094
00:51:05,798 --> 00:51:08,838
Speaker 3: But that was the first one, and god, I don't

1095
00:51:08,838 --> 00:51:10,278
Speaker 3: even want to say I wish I had it back,

1096
00:51:10,598 --> 00:51:12,798
Speaker 3: but it definitely was a lot of fun. It taught

1097
00:51:12,838 --> 00:51:15,918
Speaker 3: me how to face adversity when your breaks go out.

1098
00:51:16,038 --> 00:51:18,718
Speaker 3: So it's twenty five bucks a Chevy Black I think

1099
00:51:18,718 --> 00:51:19,478
Speaker 3: it was fifty three.

1100
00:51:19,878 --> 00:51:22,518
Speaker 1: Only Joe Madden, folks, I mean, that's why this is

1101
00:51:22,518 --> 00:51:26,278
Speaker 1: the most interesting podcast in baseball only Joe Madden. First Car.

1102
00:51:26,358 --> 00:51:29,358
Speaker 1: We get a story about plowing snow with a coal

1103
00:51:29,398 --> 00:51:31,758
Speaker 1: Myer's car with a door used as a plow.

1104
00:51:32,038 --> 00:51:33,118
Speaker 2: It was so fun. Man.

1105
00:51:33,318 --> 00:51:35,638
Speaker 3: Well, so people understand that my dad had a buddy

1106
00:51:35,678 --> 00:51:38,118
Speaker 3: named Johnny Damara who was a great mechanic and helped me.

1107
00:51:38,198 --> 00:51:40,438
Speaker 2: Met my dad and john fix that thought.

1108
00:51:40,478 --> 00:51:41,798
Speaker 3: Even how they did it to the front end of

1109
00:51:41,798 --> 00:51:42,838
Speaker 3: my car was outstanding.

1110
00:51:43,118 --> 00:51:45,718
Speaker 1: Somehow, Joe, You've got to top that by bringing us

1111
00:51:46,078 --> 00:51:47,838
Speaker 1: to home here. What do you got for us today?

1112
00:51:47,918 --> 00:51:50,518
Speaker 3: Well, today I was looking at the sports page.

1113
00:51:50,518 --> 00:51:51,158
Speaker 2: I sit in the morning.

1114
00:51:51,158 --> 00:51:53,158
Speaker 3: I read the New York Post the Bible every morning,

1115
00:51:53,398 --> 00:51:55,038
Speaker 3: not only the sports page. I love a lot of

1116
00:51:55,038 --> 00:51:56,798
Speaker 3: this post because it gives me everything I need to

1117
00:51:56,838 --> 00:52:01,078
Speaker 3: know very quickly. But the Yankee situation with Cole, etc.

1118
00:52:01,638 --> 00:52:04,398
Speaker 3: And I'm reading all the different takes on this and

1119
00:52:04,678 --> 00:52:07,038
Speaker 3: all the different spin on it. It's so fun to

1120
00:52:07,078 --> 00:52:08,678
Speaker 3: read because all of a sudden they start talking about

1121
00:52:08,718 --> 00:52:11,278
Speaker 3: their young pitchers and how great they are because they

1122
00:52:11,278 --> 00:52:13,398
Speaker 3: have to introduce them to the fans. In cases doesn't

1123
00:52:13,398 --> 00:52:17,558
Speaker 3: work out well. So it's all about adversity. And this

1124
00:52:17,718 --> 00:52:21,198
Speaker 3: is very succinct and I love succinct from George costanz

1125
00:52:21,438 --> 00:52:22,158
Speaker 3: in Seinfeld.

1126
00:52:22,238 --> 00:52:24,518
Speaker 2: But YadA, YadA, YadA.

1127
00:52:24,398 --> 00:52:29,718
Speaker 3: Right, adversity introduces a man to himself, Einstein, an organization.

1128
00:52:30,318 --> 00:52:34,638
Speaker 3: Adversity introduces an organization to itself. So that's what the Yankees.

1129
00:52:34,358 --> 00:52:35,318
Speaker 2: Got going on right now.

1130
00:52:35,398 --> 00:52:39,118
Speaker 3: I mean, they have all these wonderfully high expectations this year.

1131
00:52:39,918 --> 00:52:41,638
Speaker 2: I've listened. I'm hoping there's nothing wrong.

1132
00:52:42,638 --> 00:52:46,718
Speaker 3: Just the way it was reported or presented, you'd have

1133
00:52:46,758 --> 00:52:51,478
Speaker 3: to believe there's something going on there. But adversity introduces

1134
00:52:51,478 --> 00:52:55,238
Speaker 3: an organization to itself. So let's hope that this as well.

1135
00:52:55,638 --> 00:52:57,838
Speaker 3: As I want to see the Yankees perform with all

1136
00:52:57,878 --> 00:53:00,518
Speaker 3: the moves, I like Brian Cashman a lot. I want

1137
00:53:00,558 --> 00:53:02,478
Speaker 3: to see that work. I want to see Riz win again.

1138
00:53:03,398 --> 00:53:06,958
Speaker 3: But there's there's definitely an adversarial component of this thing

1139
00:53:07,038 --> 00:53:08,918
Speaker 3: right now that they need to get right. And now

1140
00:53:08,918 --> 00:53:13,678
Speaker 3: it's Snell available and all these Montgomery available. Wow, they're

1141
00:53:13,718 --> 00:53:15,798
Speaker 3: just sitting in the background and seeing how this might

1142
00:53:15,878 --> 00:53:18,318
Speaker 3: all play out. So it's kind of interesting. But it's

1143
00:53:18,358 --> 00:53:20,678
Speaker 3: definitely an adverse situation with the Yankees.

1144
00:53:20,558 --> 00:53:24,518
Speaker 1: Well said Joe as always, and yeah, adversity to me,

1145
00:53:24,638 --> 00:53:28,478
Speaker 1: it's a synonym for opportunities. Right, So we'll see what

1146
00:53:28,518 --> 00:53:30,918
Speaker 1: happens for the New York Yankees, and we do wish

1147
00:53:30,918 --> 00:53:33,558
Speaker 1: the best for Garrett Call absolutely always fun. Joe really

1148
00:53:33,638 --> 00:53:44,158
Speaker 1: enjoyed this, Thanks brother, appreciate it. The Book of Joe

1149
00:53:44,278 --> 00:53:48,798
Speaker 1: podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1150
00:53:48,998 --> 00:53:52,958
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1151
00:53:52,998 --> 00:53:53,798
Speaker 1: your podcasts.