1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I'm Matt 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: and today we're talking a very minimalist Christmas with Meg Nordman. Yes, 3 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: today we have the pleasure of speaking with Meg Nordman, 4 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: who is the author of Have Yourself a Minimalist Christmas. 5 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: And you know, with the holiday is quickly approaching, we 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: can often find ourselves just wondering where all of our 7 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: time and money is running off to, right like Christmas 8 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: parties you're in school, events for the kids, the cost 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: of decorating gifts for family members. The list could go on. 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: But Meg wants to shift your mindset by walking you 11 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: through some of the tenants of minimalism in her book, 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: and she's going to give us some strategies here to 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: help us to resist the clever marketing and the cultural 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: expectations that the season and often brings. So Meg Nordman, 15 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today on the podcast. Thank you, 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: Matt and Joel. I'm really grateful to be here talking 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: with you today. Well, we're glad to have you, Meg, 18 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: and I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. 19 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 1: And I do think, especially in the culture we find 20 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: ourselves in, this conversation is an important one, hopefully helpful 21 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: for the how of money audience. But before we get 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: into all that stuff, I want to ask you. Matt 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: and I we like to drink a beer. We're drinking 24 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 1: a beer right now as we speak. And it's something 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: that we spend I would say, a lot of money 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: on while we're trying to save and invest well for 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: the future. So, yeah, what's that in your life? Do 28 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: you have a craft beer equivalent something you find yourself 29 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: spending more money on than most people would think is reasonable. Yes, 30 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: I definitely do. I'm thirty four and have seen the 31 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: effects of all this sun in Florida, and so I 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: have been splurging way too much on skincare products and 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, I'm hoarding swimsuits. I've gotten pretty 34 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: minimalist in all aspects except for the swimsuit department. So 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm just out in the sun in these swimsuits and 36 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: then you know, getting all these ub rays and then 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: covering myself and hats as well. Well maybe we'll get 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: to this later on in the episode two. But you 39 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: actually live in Florida, like on an island? Is that right? Yeah? 40 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: Anastasia Island. So you spent a lot of a lot 41 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: of time on the beach. It's not like you live 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: in Nebraska and you just have like an infatuation with swimwear. Yeah, 43 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean the swimwhere basically that's that is my my clothes. 44 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: So my husband's an avid surfer and we're a quick 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: bike ride from the beach. So yeah, it's it's a 46 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: free thing. We don't have to spend money. We're constantly entertained. 47 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: Especially having kids. I've always enjoyed the beach to a 48 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: certain extent, but the ability to go to a beach 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: and then just let the kids essentially just run wild. 50 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: I now see the appeal of that. I'm going to 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: the beach when you have kids, it's like, oh, wow, 52 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: you've never or been, you know, a quarter mile away 53 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: from you before, but you are. And I'm okay with 54 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: that because it's a good place to be. I love 55 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: to let them have that space because they do. They 56 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: just run like their toddlers, little kids, and they just 57 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: run and run and run, and they feel like they're 58 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: so far away. But I mean it's just a wide 59 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: open space. We can see them. We can go jog 60 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: for him if we need to. But it is nice 61 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: to kind of like let them off the leash in 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: a sense. You know, yeah, I love that alright, So Meg, 63 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: let's talk about minimalism in general, kind of like what 64 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: set you down that path in the first place. Yes, 65 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: So I used to be, I guess you could say, 66 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: like borderline hoarder. I was, you know, not hoarder to 67 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: the level of being on a TV show with the 68 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: dead rats in my house or anything. But I've now 69 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: realized that my parents are a bit of hoarders, and 70 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: so I just I never saw anyone declutter anything in 71 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: my life, and so I never did. I moved from 72 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: apartment to apartment, from state to state, and just kept 73 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: boxing up all this stuff and never let go of anything. 74 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: And at some point my boyfriend moved in with me, 75 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: and wait, we have a long tangled love story. We 76 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: had a few years break there, and in that break 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: he'd been surfing around the globe and became a minimalist 78 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: in the sense that he just had a backpack and 79 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: on surfboard and hitchhiked from country to country to find 80 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: good surf. And so he came back and moved in 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: with me and just had like nothing. You know, He's 82 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: like five T shirts and two board shorts and a 83 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: surfboard and the guitar. You know, yeah and uh. And 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: then he had to move into my place where I'd 85 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,920 Speaker 1: never let go of anything since I was a child, 86 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: So that was probably a shock to his system. And 87 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: so he kind of just led by example, both in 88 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: like the financial independence route and wanting to be debt free. 89 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: It like never even occurred to me that I could 90 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: be debt free or financially independent or not have so 91 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: much stuff. So I really give a lot of credit 92 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: to him for leading the way there. So um, I 93 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: had a shopoholic problem with clothes and shoes in particular. 94 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: So I was briefly out in Albuquerque, New Mexico, doing 95 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: digital marketing for tech startups, and we moved to Florida 96 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: after we got debt free, and I found Marie Kondo's 97 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 1: book The Magical Art of Tidying Up and read about 98 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: decluttering for the first time in my life that that 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: sounds so silly to say that that was a lightbulb 100 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: moment for me. Was like, oh, I don't have to 101 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: keep everything, and you know in her classic doesn't spark 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: joy question, And so I let go of things and 103 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: it felt like a lot but I did not become 104 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: a minimalist overnight at all. Um but I felt like, 105 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: because it was my first time letting go of things, 106 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: it felt like a lot of things were let go. 107 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: But my god, we had my SUV pact. We had 108 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: a huge tray just loaded up. It wasn't enough. We 109 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: had to get a U haul truck and get his 110 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: mother in law to drive behind us. And I still 111 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: literally left things on the sidewalk because I couldn't cram 112 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: it in. That's and you know, that was like my stuff. 113 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 1: And we moved into a little seven d square foot 114 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: place here on the beach and couldn't fit it in. 115 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,559 Speaker 1: I had, you know, probably two thousand square feet group 116 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: of stuff, and so I had to declutter a little further. 117 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: And then we were living in chaos because I still 118 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: had it crammed. And we had a kid right away. 119 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: I was like eight months pregnantly moved, and once they 120 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: start walking, the toys start moving and they scatter, and 121 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: I get everywhere and there's no way to contain it. 122 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: So it just was bonkers. And I was spending my 123 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: life in this like bent over position of just picking 124 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: up and picking up and picking up, and all I 125 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: was doing was massive loads of laundry. The couch was 126 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: just this mountain, this never ending mountain to sift through 127 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: of clothes. You couldn't sit on it. The dishes were 128 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: always piled up. And so there was finally this lightbulb 129 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: moment as as I was relearning new shopping habits because 130 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: we had this goal to hit financial independence at a 131 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: pretty quick right, so I had to stop buying so 132 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: much stuff in the first place. And then that realization 133 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: of if I just have less stuff, then I have 134 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: less things to clean, which means I have more time, 135 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: and that was really all I craved. You know, the 136 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: whole point of financial independence was time. But I also 137 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: need to let go of the stuff because I wanted 138 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: to be present with my kid, not cleaning up all day. 139 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to play with her. And I wanted to write. 140 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: I've been wanting to write books forever, but I didn't 141 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: have time to sit down and write. And I want 142 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: to make art and I want to make music. And 143 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: so once I finally had that real light bulb moment 144 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: and figured out that asking does it spark joy like, 145 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: barely scratches the surface of what you need to be 146 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: asking when you let go of things, um and finding 147 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: those deeper questions and really kind of digging into my 148 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: own psychology of why I was clutching to so many 149 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: things I was able to let go, and they all 150 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: just kind of work in tandem, Like the ability to 151 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: save money and the ability to let go items. It 152 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: just really worked together for me, like everything clicked all 153 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: at the same time, and so we definitely became a 154 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: minimalist household. You know, we've got like two bowls for 155 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: adults and two kid bowls and six spoons, you know, 156 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: and one water glass for everyone. Now, I do have 157 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: enough to sit about six people if I needed to. 158 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: If we happen to have family over our guests. It's 159 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: just kind of a rare event for us. And all 160 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: that's tucked away at a cabinet that's kind of higher 161 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 1: up and hard to reach. But you know, I can't 162 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: possibly have an overflowing kitchen when all we have is 163 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: four bowls in four cups, you know, like I don't 164 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: need to run the dishwasher anymore. And so you know, 165 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: of course I applied I applied that to close and 166 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: um really kind of capsule wardrobed everyone. And that was 167 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: a big deal for me. Um, as you know from 168 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: my description, I used to need like to walk in 169 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: closets for my clothes, and now I can see everything 170 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: within like a small you know, when you just open 171 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: up a closet door, that little window frame, that's it. 172 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: That's all I have hanging. And my husband and I 173 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: share a small chester drawers together, so we each have 174 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: like two drawers for ourselves. And it's just a huge, huge, 175 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: huge improvement. And so you know, there's no way I 176 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: could fill up our couch full of clothes now. So 177 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: I gained my time back, and I was able to 178 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: join in the orchestra and make music again, and make 179 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: art and write a book. We go and hang out 180 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: on the beach all the time, and so we were 181 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: able to achieve our goals. My husband retired early this 182 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: past April, you know, cut our spending down to like 183 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: been thousand dollars a year. It worked. But my problem was, 184 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: even despite really seeing all this improvement with our budget 185 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: and the improvement with decluttering the rest of the house, 186 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: Christmas was a big problem for me. Yeah, well, let's 187 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: I want to camp out for one second on minimalism. 188 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: And you said that what began as like this forced 189 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: purge kind of turned into a choice and it led 190 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: to this like simplified lifestyle, which sounds like it's been 191 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: awesome for you for your family. Um, I just want 192 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 1: to know, like, you know, before we get into the 193 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: Christmas stuff, what tips do you have for our listeners 194 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: who are who are saying, Okay, Meg just said that 195 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: sparking joy that didn't go far enough. You had to 196 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: confront like some deeper demons and it was more than 197 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: just like tossing things out or and giving them to goodwill. Uh, Like, 198 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: how would you suggest people begin this process of minimalism 199 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: if they're kind of like just now getting wapped in 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: the face with the potential idea that they that they 201 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: should even consider it. Yeah, uh, I know. One tip 202 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: I would suggest that was kind of a mind hack 203 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: that helped me was to look at things and say, well, 204 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: what is my favorite? Because when I went through my closet, 205 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: I had I'm not kidding, probably fifty little black dresses 206 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: like perfect fit me well, gorgeous little black cocktail dresses 207 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: that I would love to wear. But here I am 208 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: in this new season of life. I don't go to events, 209 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: I don't have a corporate job. I'm a mother, and 210 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: we're lucky if we go on two or three real 211 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: date nights, you know, like going out to get cocktails 212 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: a year. So why do I have fifty of them? 213 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: But you know, putting my fingers on them to go 214 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: through the decluttering process and asking does this spark joy? Yes? 215 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: It does? This dressed me excited. It makes me want 216 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: to go out and do that thing, even if I'm 217 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: not doing that thing exactly. And dress, it's just that 218 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: you like all of them, you don't need all of 219 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: them exactly, and we have all these ways we can 220 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: nationalize it. Of well, this one is great for a 221 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: slightly more conservative one, and this one costs four hundred dollars. 222 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: But I go through when I say, okay, I only 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: get two day nights a year. What is that very 224 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: first little black dress that I'm going to reach for 225 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: that I know will apply to all situations, that will 226 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: always make me feel good, that will always look great 227 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: on me. Which one is that going to be? Most 228 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: people could do this, you know which dress or outfit 229 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, my free you might be a shirt, but 230 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: you know you know which one that is so okay 231 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: that one stays and then all the rest of those 232 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: even though they all spark joy and I find them 233 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: all beautiful, it doesn't matter. I need to let it go. 234 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: And so I had to do that to a lot 235 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: of things, I mean, as permeated through all aspects of 236 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: your life. And so you're seeing the benefits of minimalism 237 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: across the board. But you mentioned how it's you know, 238 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: like Christmas in particular, it's still a problem for a 239 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: lot of folks. And I think we can all find ourselves, 240 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, in that whirlwind of holiday gift giving, and 241 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: it's essentially become a part of our culture, you know, 242 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: like it's just ingrained in us. It's ingrained in the 243 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: lives that we live. And so can you talk us 244 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: through the evolution of Christmas and consumerism just becoming more 245 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: and more entwined. Yeah. So my child's first birthday, I 246 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 1: mean not birthday, well that one too, probably, but her 247 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: first Christmas. You know, Santa gave her everything a child 248 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: could need for the first five years of their life. 249 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I just went overboard. I was just so 250 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: excited because as a parent, you get this role, or 251 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: I feel it, I had this role that I needed 252 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: to create magic. You know, I'm the magic maker and 253 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: I remembered, you know, Christmas Morning feeling magical as a kid. 254 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: So I was very excited about this role and I 255 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: just went overboard. You know. I got the little stroller 256 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: pram for the baby doll, and I got the toy kitchen, 257 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: and I got the rocking horse, and I mean just everything. 258 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: I mean the pick sure of Christmas morning was just ridiculous, 259 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: and you know, I was very proud of it in 260 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: the moment, but um, there was like nothing left to 261 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: buy my kid for the future years and there was 262 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: no budget set, there was no discussion about budget. Um, 263 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: I just just went ape with it. I had that 264 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: moment after Christmas when I kind of realized what I've done, 265 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: like just how out of control I've gotten, and how 266 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: much money I'd spent, and then wanting to declutter almost 267 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: everything I just bought. Was like, oh wow, I just 268 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: destroyed all of my efforts here to keep things rained in. 269 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: I just went that that toy that created like fifteen 270 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: minutes of joy on Christmas morning is now you're like 271 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: stubbing your toe on. Oh, I can see now, I'm 272 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: just gonna be picking up all these little loose parts 273 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: over and over and over again and trying to keep 274 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: them in the basket, and they will never stay in 275 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: the basket. So um, you know, over that next year 276 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: of like kind of seeing how much wreckage I had done. Also, 277 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: I in my journey to minimalism, I joined a lot 278 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: of Facebook groups, you know, for support and tips and everything. 279 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: And I started noticing after I came to grips with 280 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: my own problem with wrecking myself, Chris, And it wasn't 281 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: just me, it was also the grandparents and the ants 282 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: and the friends. I mean, I did it and they 283 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: did it too, you know, like it was just ridiculous. 284 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: So seeing all these questions of like, well, how do 285 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: I ask my mother in law to stop bringing in 286 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: a truckload of gifts? Or how do I now go 287 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: from going overboard every Christmas and creating this epic, you know, 288 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: amount of gifts under the tree to a more minimalist 289 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: approach of just like four or five gifts? Are my 290 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: kids going to feel deprived? How are they going to 291 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: deal with that big switch? And so everyone's asking these 292 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: same questions year after a year, and I'm noticing that 293 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: in all of the groups. And that's when it occurred 294 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: to me. Now that I've consumed like twenty books on 295 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: minimalism and audio books and the podcasts and stuff. I'm like, oh, no, 296 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: one's addressed how even as a practicing minimalist we're still 297 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: falling into this consumers trap during the holidays. The marketing 298 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: still gets to us too. We're not impermeable do it. Well, Hey, 299 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: We've got a bunch more questions Meg to get to, 300 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: including how we actually don't turn off maybe that minimalism 301 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: down what it looks like to have a Christmas that 302 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: is less influenced by consumerism. So we'll get to some 303 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: more questions about that with you right after this break 304 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: where we're back from the break and we're talking with 305 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: Meg Norman about having a minimalist Christmas, and and Meg, 306 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, before the break you're talking about your personal 307 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: history with how you kind of fell into the trap 308 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: of consuming more on the holidays. Can you talk something 309 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: about the history of just consumerism and commercialism and and 310 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: the waters that we find ourselves swimming in. Yeah. Absolutely, 311 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: So this was a big help for me. So after 312 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: that first year of just going off the deep end, 313 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: the next year I felt it creeping up again. And 314 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: I don't know what it was, but I ended up googling, 315 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, the history of Santa, because I was like, 316 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: what is it with this Santa? Like I'm playing Santa, 317 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: and I feel like I need to bring in the 318 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: whole sleigh full of toys. Um, why Like what is 319 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: Santa's deal? Because it's almost like treated like a religion 320 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: in itself, you know, and we all play into this narrative, 321 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: this story as a whole society. We all do it together. 322 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 1: And so, you know, I get on there and read 323 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: about the history, and it relieved so much pressure from 324 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: me just to understand this, and I was able to. 325 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: I don't completely opt out of it, but I've taken 326 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: only five steps backwards homer backing up into the bushes 327 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: kind of thing when it comes to the way you approached. Yeah, yeah, 328 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: so yeah. So to give you a quick rundown, you know, 329 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: you have St. Nicholas. He's born into a d e 330 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: d He's a monk that gave away a lot of 331 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: his wealth to the poor and the needy, and he 332 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: reappears in modern history in the US anyway, in seventeen 333 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: seventy three because there were some Dutch immigrants and they 334 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: were just honoring the anniversary of his death. And for 335 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: whatever reason, uh New York newspaper picks that up and 336 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: runs a story on it, and suddenly there's like a 337 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: renewed interest in this guy St. Nicholas, and about, you know, 338 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: twenty years later in the eighteen hundreds, um images of 339 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: him in little wood cuttings start getting passed around, of 340 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: him slipping items into stockings. And then about twenty years later, 341 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: the stores catch on to these wood cuts being passed 342 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: around long families and they start advertising around that and 343 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: somehow work him into Christmas shopping. So we're talking eighteen twenties, 344 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: that's very recent history, you know. And so twenty years 345 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 1: later St. Nicholas starts morphing into Santa and that poem 346 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: towards the night before Christmas. It was written by a 347 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: preacher and he felt very embarrassed by it. He just 348 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: did it for his nieces, just for fun, and then 349 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: it got published and he felt like, oh my gosh, 350 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: I can't believe it. But he was really embarrassed by it. 351 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,239 Speaker 1: And because it wasn't necessarily a religious text, it's just 352 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: a myth. He just he just dreamed up this image 353 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: of who this random Santa guy is that had just 354 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: started to kind of catch wind in newspapers and shopping 355 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: and advertising, and so he really shaped it with that poem. 356 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: And then the malls started offering live Santa's and Macy's, 357 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: you know, it was the first one. And they have 358 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: their Thanksgiving parade that starts um in like the nineteen twenties, 359 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: and they have their Santa in the back for the 360 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 1: first time. And so Coca Cola and nineteen thirties, ten 361 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: years later catches wind of this, and so they start 362 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: adding Santa to their advertising. So whoever the the illustrator 363 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: was for their advertising department really fine tuned what he's 364 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: supposed to look like to us now. So yeah, Coca 365 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: Cola kind of created our jolly red Santa. This kind 366 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: of stuff like really helped me go, oh my gosh, 367 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: this is and it continues. So just to give a 368 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: really quick rundown, the songs that hit the charts in 369 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: ninety four were Santa Claus Is Coming to Town, and 370 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: that starts this whole narrative around the good list, you know, 371 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: the good and the naughty, and then ninety nine is Rudolph, 372 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty is Frosty, in two thousand five is Elf 373 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: on the Shelf, and so I'm kind of seeing this 374 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: like this very recent history timeline of like how we 375 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: created this story and how it was mostly created for 376 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: malls and products big corporations to have like another way 377 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: to make more sales in the wintertime. And that relieved 378 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: some of that pressure to create this magic. You know, 379 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: it's going to be magical no matter what. So I 380 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: didn't feel that impulse to buy so much of like, 381 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this thing is it's not real, it's 382 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: not a religion, as I don't have to participate in 383 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: this so much. So what it did for me was 384 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: I don't ask my kids what do you want for Christmas? 385 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: As much because I did that in the beginning. You know, 386 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: what do you want? What do you want? Here's the 387 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's terrible, terrible like approach, having that continual 388 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: conversation about what they're looking to give for Christmas. How 389 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: how have you changed that conversational dynamic. Yes, so if 390 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: you go and meet Santa, don't go sit on his 391 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: knee and tell Santa what you want. Like that's just 392 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: one of those small things that adds to it, because 393 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: all we're asking kids is what do you want? Like 394 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: I just got an Amazon catalog in the mail with 395 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: toys that has one whole page is just stickers that 396 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: say I want this, this one, this one is my favorite. 397 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: You know. It's got little arrows and circles and stuff. 398 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, we're literally handing these two children 399 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: and saying, have at it. Tell me everything you want. 400 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: And that is the message instead of Hey, this is 401 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: a beautiful time of year. I love this season. Let's 402 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: go enjoy the snow. Let's go and look at the lights. 403 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: Let's drink warm drinks together, you know, like that coziness, 404 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: Like let's look at the twinkle lights and decorate the 405 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: tree together, like that togetherness and that piece and the 406 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: joy that we sing about in our carols. But instead 407 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: we've kind of shifted it all to what the corporations 408 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 1: wanted us to ask, was what do you want? You know? 409 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: So I'm just careful not to talk about toys. They 410 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: will get toys. It will feel magical and exciting, but 411 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: I don't make all of November and December about asking 412 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: that question. So anyway, what are your strategies then when 413 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: it comes to gift giving, Because as a minimalist, it 414 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: can be easy to to be like, no, gifts at all, right, 415 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: like the soup Nazi, but for Christmas gifts maybe nothing 416 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: for you? And so yeah, what like what what would 417 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: you recommend to folks who are saying, yes, you're right, Okay, 418 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: I get it. I see the connection between Christmas and consumerism, 419 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: and I want to make sure that our household isn't 420 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: overdoing it and then my kids aren't becoming like I 421 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: want this, I want that machines, which it's so easy 422 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: to get to this time of year. Like, how do 423 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: you decide how many gifts gifts you're going to give? 424 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: Like what sort of strategies have you implemented? Yeah, so 425 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, first of all would be budget. Don't be 426 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: like me on my first Christmas as a parent and 427 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: uh not have one. So we have a pretty low 428 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: one now a hundred bucks for event tickets and two 429 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: hundred bucks for both kids, come mind, and I I 430 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: get plenty of things just with that amount. And then 431 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: I also kind of loosely do the four gift role. Um. 432 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's a catchy poem that a lot of 433 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: minimalists ascribed to and it's something you want, something you need, 434 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: something to wear, something to read, And I do like 435 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: that like if you set that up with your kids, 436 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: that's the expectation, you know, like now you do get 437 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: to pick one thing that you want, you know, and 438 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: then your parents probably know best of the thing that 439 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: you need. And then you know, you get to your nice, 440 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: new warm clothes, and here's some classic books for you 441 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: to read, and so there's these parameters around it, and 442 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: you know that's stuff that's not necessarily going to need 443 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 1: to be decluttered. Now. I haven't quite yet started reciting 444 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: that poem to my kids they're still young, but I 445 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: probably will shift to it when they get a little 446 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: bit older. They need some parameters around it. Right now, 447 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: I just kind of keep an ear out to what 448 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: is that one thing that they want, and I try 449 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: to keep it down to about four to five items. 450 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: And I am really mindful and intentional about it, because 451 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine, will I want to declutter 452 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: this in a month? Like that is kind of a 453 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: big question. I ask myself a lot for birthday presents 454 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: and Christmas presents of will this stick around? What is 455 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: the length on this? What's the duration that that yeah 456 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: the shelf life? Because I think how many parts I 457 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: would think to write, like a nerf gun with like 458 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: a hundred I don't know. I don't want that. And 459 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to our money, I mean, that's oftentimes 460 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: what we should be thinking about. We're not only thinking 461 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: about the feeling that it's going to give us right 462 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: now what we spend. That is certainly something we need 463 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: to take into account, but we also are thinking about 464 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 1: those longer term goals and thinking through the impact of 465 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,919 Speaker 1: those items on your role as a parent, Like that 466 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: is something you definitely need to think through. How many 467 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: of these little pieces am I going to have to 468 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: pick up? How long will us actually entertain them? And 469 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: so I like that four gift rule though, So it's 470 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: something you want, something you need, something you wear, and 471 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: then something to read. Okay, so a book, Okay. I 472 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: think about that when I think about the fact that, 473 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: like you've heard of the different love languages, I think 474 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: there's five of them, Yeah, but like gift giving, that 475 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: is an actual love language. And and so I think, well, 476 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: how do you square that with the fact that there 477 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: are some folks out there who really like receiving gifts? 478 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: But at the same time, if you're trying to be minimal, 479 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: you're at odds with that with that behavior, and I 480 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: feel like quality over quantity could be just a good 481 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: principle to keep in mind if you have something like 482 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: that in your life. Is that right? Oh? Yes, I 483 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: definitely do have several love language people in my life, 484 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: and UM, it is kind of funny to be the 485 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: author of this book and like pass it to them 486 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: and I talk about the love languages and how some 487 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: people truly do identify with that of gift giving is 488 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: their love language. If anyone UM listens to the minimalists, 489 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: they will argue this point that there is not a 490 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,959 Speaker 1: fifth love language, that gift giving cannot be a love 491 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: language because love is not transactional. And I do like that, 492 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: but man, some people really do feel this way and 493 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: you can't reprogram them. So some of the things that 494 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: I've learned to help with this is one to drop hints, 495 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: so in conversation you don't even have to use fancy 496 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: words like minimalism or decluttering. It kind of scares these people, 497 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: but just to kind of mention, like I just did 498 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: this the other day, UM with one of them, and said, 499 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: you know, I just went through the kids clothes and 500 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to make you know, see how many winter 501 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 1: clothes they had and make sure they had everything they 502 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: needed for the winter, and they are set, they have plenty, 503 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: they have more than enough, and we're good for the winter. 504 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: Because I know this particular person loves to give an 505 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: overabundance of close, which is a very you know, generous, wonderful, 506 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: blessed thing to to have in your life, but it 507 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: it is um to a level that actually makes my 508 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: life feel overwhelming chaotic. So just dropping hints is a 509 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: good way. And I have a couple of scripts in 510 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: my book where I kind of show examples of what 511 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: these conversations look like and how it can kind of 512 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 1: organically flow to let them catch your drift. But in 513 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: case they don't, maybe you need to set some limits 514 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 1: with your family. So we've done this a few times 515 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: with our extend family and it's great. So and it 516 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: changes every year for some reason, you something you think 517 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: something would stick. But sometimes it can look like a 518 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: financial limit. So you can say, okay, we're not spending 519 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: over per person, or fifty dollars or a hundred dollars 520 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: per person, whatever feels right for your family, or it 521 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: is just one item per person within the family, or 522 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: maybe it's um we did this one year. We're just 523 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: exchanging books. Everybody pick a book, you know, it can 524 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: be fiction or nonfiction, and that is all we're giving 525 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: to one another. Nice and yeah that was a really 526 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: good year. Or I've seen other people do. Okay, only 527 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: the grand kids and no adults, but whatever those parameters are, 528 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: just get a conversation going with your family to start 529 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: setting some kind of guidelines and limits and you'll probably 530 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: find that there will be relieved for that too, because 531 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: otherwise they're like, oh my gosh, I need to get 532 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: three things for everybody that you know, Yeah, they coming 533 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: to rest things up well, and you're maybe like that 534 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: pressure release valve by starting that conversation that says, hey, 535 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: you don't have to live up to these fake expectations 536 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: that nobody actually has of you that the movies make 537 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: it seem like you need to live up to. And 538 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: so Meg, what do you do, like in the middle 539 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: of a Christmas celebration or a holiday celebration when like 540 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: there there's like a an expectation that hasn't met or 541 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: maybe someone's supersedes that kind of rules that have been 542 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: laid out, or in a grandparent like goes overboard. So 543 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: you say supersed, but what you really mean is they 544 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: broke the rule. They broke the ground rules. Yeah, or 545 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: if just like maybe maybe this year it was too 546 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: late and you didn't establish any ground rules and you're like, man, 547 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: they just overdid it. Like how how do you like 548 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: get over having a sour pust look on your face? Um? 549 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: Because you know what all these additional toys or all 550 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: this additional stuff means for your life, and it's not 551 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: something that you're looking to, Like, how do you navigate 552 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: those kind of relational waters? Yeah? I see that a 553 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: lot within the minimalist groups, where people feel like almost 554 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: like the person did it on purpose, like they project 555 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: that onto them and that it was vicious and that 556 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: they were undermining all of their work. And I tell them, 557 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: they're we're minimalist. I told them not to get us anything, 558 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: and they did it anyway. They're sabotaging me, you know. Um, 559 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: but I have like a whole chapter talking about that. 560 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: You just cannot take this attitude with it. No one 561 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: is trying to sabotage you. It really is that, you know, 562 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: love language for them, they feel this way. They're not 563 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 1: seeing your lists are going by your parameters and your guidelines, 564 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: and you just have to smile and give that hug 565 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 1: and say thank you and say I love you, because 566 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: that is actually all these people are looking for. They're 567 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: looking for for that validation of love. And use your 568 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: manners and but don't let it get past the living room. 569 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: You know, I'm serious. You are the person in control, 570 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: and you just have to constantly know that you are 571 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: in control of what goes in your house. You have 572 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: to be a ruthless editor and curator of your Literally, 573 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: don't let those items leave the living room, is what 574 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: you're saying. I thought you're talking about like the emotions, 575 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: but you're talking about the actual objects. I'm talking about 576 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: the objects because I you know, I'm freaking published a 577 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: book on this, and I still have these people giving 578 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: me way, way, way too much, giving our family and 579 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: our kids, and it's wonderful. And but you know, I 580 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: get to say, even though this person gave me a 581 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: sweater and as a ift, the sweater does not have 582 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: to go in my closet. You say goodbye, you know, 583 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: Merry Christmas. They go on their way and you just 584 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: immediately start making decisions. You know, that's when you go 585 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: to your closet and say, okay, is this new sweater 586 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: going to replace an old one? Let's getting too worn out. 587 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: If so, pull that other one out right now, don't 588 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: don't add add two and they I know it sounds 589 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: so horrible and sad to say all loud, but man, 590 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: there are so many things that I don't let get 591 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: past the living room and go straight into a box, 592 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: into the trunk and get donated to a fabulous thrift 593 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: shop we have here in town that helps women with 594 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: domestic abuse escape that. And I find someplace like that 595 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: that resonates and makes you feel good so that you're 596 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: you can let go. Because I know a lot of 597 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: people do have a problem with saying this was a 598 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: gift and therefore I have to keep it. You know 599 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: I used to be that way. I kept every gift 600 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: ever given to me. Yeah, what's crazy is that at 601 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: the end of a day of exchange of gifts like that. 602 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: I mean, to be honest, that's probably the last thing 603 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: that most folks want to do, right, I mean, they 604 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: just take the item. Folks will leave if you know 605 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: they're leaving the house. And so it's gonna take that 606 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: extra little push, like you said, to make that decision 607 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 1: because it's honestly probably gonna be the easiest time to 608 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: make that decision before it ends up sitting in your 609 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: drawer for weeks or months years. Yeah, So you've talked 610 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: about how it is that we can go about buying 611 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: fewer gifts. You've talked about how we can communicate with 612 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: family or friends to maybe buy a fewer items for us. 613 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna talk next about ways that we can go 614 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: about seeking after a minimalist Christmas at home, and also 615 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: just how we go about doing that with our time, 616 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 1: with our calendars. And we'll get to both of those 617 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: right after this break. Sorry, we're back from the break 618 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: still talking with Meg Norman about having a minimalist Christmas. 619 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: And Meg, that was just a lot of useful information 620 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to navigating the holidays with your kids, 621 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: with your parents, like for yourself. But I want to 622 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: I want to ask you to, like, how does a 623 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: minimalist decorate for Christmas? Because when it comes to putting 624 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: up lights or I'm guessing you know how many like 625 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: Christmas blow up decorations in your front yard, Like how 626 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: do you handle the decorating? Yeah, so we don't have 627 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: any blow up decorations in the yard. But in my 628 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: life in this chapter, it just doesn't work for me. 629 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: And um, it did come down to this realization of 630 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: I my house is a container, you know, and I 631 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: only have so much square footage that I can live in. 632 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: And why is my entire I only have two tiny closets. 633 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 1: Why is one entire closet basically devoted to Christmas items 634 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: that come out for whopping three or four weeks of 635 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: the year, you know, So how much have you downsized? 636 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: Then what do you put up? Oh? So we do 637 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: a small tree and I just have to help me 638 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: with the orn meant decluttering. I just do red and 639 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: gold and a little clear icicles. So like us coming 640 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: up with some kind of color scheme, like some kind 641 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,479 Speaker 1: of parameter again of like this is our color scheme. Yeah, 642 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: And so it really helped me anyway, helped me to 643 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: let go of because I have probably had every trend 644 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: that has come through over the past twenty years, because 645 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: you know, one year, everyone's doing pink Christmas, you know, 646 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 1: and so I go to hobby lobby and do all 647 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, now it's peppermint Christmas. We're all doing candy 648 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: canes and peppermint stuff, you know, I can ye Christmas. Yeah, 649 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: well let's talk about time as well, because I wanted 650 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: to touch on this because last year, right because of COVID, 651 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: like most of our calendars were you know, sparsely populated, 652 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: like especially around the holidays. So like cultivating that manageable pace, 653 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: it wasn't something we had to work towards. But now 654 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: that's actually change, you know, as many are getting back 655 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: to normal life, and so how do we keep from 656 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: overwhelming ourselves around the holidays with just all the different 657 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: events exactly? I actually just did this, um thirty minutes 658 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: before our call. I got my calendar. I did, Yeah, 659 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: and um I talked about in my book. I talked 660 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: about hard plans and loose plans because again I go 661 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: back to that like first Christmas or two where um, 662 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: I drug up my family around too, probably forty five 663 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: Christmas events in the span of November and December. We 664 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: live in a very arts and cultural kind of place, 665 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: so there's probably three holiday events for every year on 666 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: the calendar that you could go to that are all awesome, 667 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, And I was just like, oh my gosh, 668 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: we have to do this. And now we have to 669 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: go to the farmers market because they have this in 670 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: my poor husband was just miserable, I mean truly miserable. 671 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 1: And I remember at one point we were in the 672 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: freezing cold um latching the sailboat parade because oh my gosh, 673 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: we live on the beach, we have to do this, 674 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And he had a work Christmas party 675 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: that was more important at the time because he was 676 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 1: going to work and we needed to show face and 677 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: look good for the managers or whatever. But I was like, no, 678 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: this is going to be a family tradition. So we 679 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: were like fighting traffic to do this. Everyone's cold and miserable, 680 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: and we don't even get to see the whole thing 681 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: because now we have to leave and go to that. 682 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: And it made the ride to the Christmas party stressful 683 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 1: and we're late for the party horrible, And so, if 684 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: you can imagine, it kind of felt like that like 685 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: the whole time, and it was just this chaos and 686 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: overwhelmed again when I had all these realizations of like, 687 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I need to edit my calendar the 688 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: same way I'm editing my house. So just now I 689 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: got out my calendar and I found my hard plans. 690 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: My hard plans for me are the Nutcracker Belly the 691 00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: Symphony which I'm in, and um, I like to go 692 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: to the Christmas Pride, this one particular one. And then 693 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: there was one other thing. What was Oh the meeting 694 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 1: Santa on the beach. That's a cool thing. So these 695 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: are hard plans because they happen one time, and it 696 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: has a ticket attached to it or a time slot 697 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: attached to it, and so everything has to work around it. 698 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: So I put those in pen on my calendar and 699 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: then I write out my loose plans. So that's more 700 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: like the traditions that I would like, ideally like to 701 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: be able to fit in. That would be like a 702 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: night where we bake cookies and do gingerbread man and 703 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: sprinkles and stuff, and maybe watching Charlie Brown Christmas would 704 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: be one. Or actually doing hot Coco with real marshmallows 705 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: on top. These kind of cozy traditions that I would 706 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 1: like to cultivate in my family. But they don't need 707 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: a hard time to them. And what I'm what I'm 708 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 1: trying to do is not cram everything into that last 709 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: week so that nothing can be enjoyed. So that way 710 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 1: I get my hard plans down, I can figure out 711 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,280 Speaker 1: where the discrepancies are and where there's a particular Saturday 712 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 1: where everything is crammed on that Saturday, and like would 713 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: let it down again, figuring that out now before the madness, 714 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: before tickets start to sell out, and and before people 715 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: start inviting me to things. So that was another big problem. 716 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: I had these things I wanted to go to, but 717 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: then every day another mom friend would text and say, oh, 718 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 1: so they're doing like pet the Ponies in elf costumes today. 719 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: You know, I'm like, oh, that sounds fun. Yeah, you know, 720 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: next thing, you know it sounds but you know, now 721 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: we're exhausted when we can't make it to the Nutcracker 722 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: Ballet because I went pet ponies and elf costumes. So 723 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just making that up. But but you 724 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: know I had I have a whole chapter and there 725 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: about how to say no gracefully because that's a really 726 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 1: hard thing for people, and so editing that calendar right 727 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: now and saying, this is what we're doing only these 728 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 1: five things, these are the five loose things I would 729 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 1: like to slowly work in, not cram intil the last week, 730 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: and that's it. Now I can politely decline and say 731 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 1: no to the twenty five invitations that I get on 732 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: Facebook in the next two Yeah, Meg, I love that. 733 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: I love that we can, you know, be more intentional 734 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 1: with our time during the holidays and as well as 735 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 1: with our gift giving and just kind of the barrage 736 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: of consumerism that hits us in the face and we 737 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: kind of just usually resort to the traditions of our 738 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: families or what we've kind of gotten accustomed to doing 739 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: if we have our own families now, and we need 740 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: to rethink those things because it can lead to one 741 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: a less less of a busted budget, because so many 742 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: people wake up in January and they're like, they get 743 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: the credit card bill and they're like, dang it, I 744 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 1: didn't realize it went that far off the rails. And so, yeah, 745 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of good food for thought 746 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: in this conversation. We really appreciate you joining us. Where 747 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: can our listeners find out more about you? Sure you 748 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: can find me at Meg Nordman. That's Nordman with two 749 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: ends on the end anywhere online mc Nordman dot com, 750 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: Meg Nordman on Twitter, Instagram. I just love to talk 751 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: about financial independence and freedom from consumerism and cultural norms 752 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: and uh, around the holidays. I focus more on on 753 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: this on how to simplify during the holidays. But and 754 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,720 Speaker 1: you can find my book on Amazon and through my website. 755 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: That's right. Well, And of course this is why we 756 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: wanted to have you on the show, because we are 757 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: all about these things as well. Meg. We really appreciate 758 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: you coming on. Thanks again, Thank you so much, Matt 759 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: and Joel. All right, Joel, that was a great conversation 760 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: we just had with Meg Norman. We talked about her book, 761 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 1: Have your Have Yourself Minimalist Christmas. We didn't talk about 762 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: that the next being Crossybuddy, the fact that minimalist has 763 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: the same syllables as Mary Little or something like that. 764 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: How does the song go out? It sounds the same. 765 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,120 Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm talking about. That was a 766 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 1: smart move on her partner. And everyone demands more singing 767 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: from you on the show. I think not. But I 768 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 1: think Meg was able to share a lot of great 769 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: takeaways from her book about having a minimal minimalist Christmas. 770 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: What was yours? Okay, So I'll say that there were 771 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: a lot of good things, and I thought a lot 772 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: of the good Christmas specific things were really helpful but 773 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 1: I thought, when you take a step back, one of 774 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: the coolest things that she mentioned was that minimalism is 775 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,359 Speaker 1: more than just getting rid of stuff, that like decluttering 776 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 1: is going to impact you in all these other ways. 777 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: So it's it's like you find that as you start 778 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: to purge your house of a bunch of items, you're 779 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 1: kind of dealing with like some psychological some like mental 780 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: stuff at the same time some part issues. And I 781 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,279 Speaker 1: thought that was like inspiring, and it's good to know 782 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 1: that it's not just throwing stuff in a bin and 783 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: donating it to goodwill. It's like, no, no, no, no. 784 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: While you're doing this, you're you want to become a 785 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: person who is less attached to things, who is less consumeristic. 786 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: And I think you made a good point earlier in 787 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: our in the conversation with her that it's kind of 788 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: the water we swimming that David Foster Wallace style, Uh, 789 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: you know, water that we swimming. And it's true. It's 790 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,920 Speaker 1: it's hard. You you have to be like incredibly purposeful 791 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: and intention to to kind of not float the mainstream 792 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: and go in a different direction. But I think doing 793 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: so is going to be a benefit, not to just 794 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: like the amount of clutter that's in your house, but 795 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: the kind of person you're becoming, the kind of person 796 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 1: you're becoming in the amount of money that you have 797 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: at the end of the day as well, and she 798 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: talked about Marie Condo and how okay the question that 799 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:20,959 Speaker 1: you know she always has in her show, in her book, 800 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: does the spark joy? And Meg talked about how, well, shoot, 801 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: I've got a lot of things that spark joy in 802 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 1: my life. And so oftentimes what comes down to is 803 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: determining what your parameters are going to be that are 804 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: going to dictate your future decisions, right, And this specifically 805 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,959 Speaker 1: came out when she was talking about like decorating. She's 806 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: She's like, okay, it's got to be gold or read 807 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: right when it comes to the holidays, because that's how 808 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:44,959 Speaker 1: she was like, that's how I'm going to decorate my house. 809 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 1: And she talked about it as well. When it comes 810 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 1: to her calendar. You know, she had like these hard plans, 811 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 1: things that she wasn't going to be flexible on. But 812 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,840 Speaker 1: I think it comes down to essentially creating rules and 813 00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 1: determining how many events am I willing to take on 814 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: per week? How many events am I going to have 815 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: even in one day and sticking with those rules, because 816 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: when we purge things from our lives, that's kind of 817 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: looked taking a reflective look on things that we've almost 818 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: already done, right, like, these are things that have happened 819 00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: in the past, and we do need to do those 820 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: things to kind of get us up to speed where 821 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: we currently are. But then moving forward, how do we 822 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 1: keep ourselves from having to have these big purges where 823 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: we have to spend all day looking back and determining 824 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: what it is we're gonna keep. What it is we're 825 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: gonna get rid of, Well, it's rules, its parameters. Is 826 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: having this filter that you run all your decisions through. 827 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,359 Speaker 1: It's like this little decision made making matrix that you've 828 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: created in your own head, and that's going to determine 829 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: what it is that you you keep around. I feel 830 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: like the example that she gave about receiving like that 831 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: sweater and immediately making the decision is this a keeper 832 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:43,920 Speaker 1: or is this is this a connor? And it's only 833 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: a keeper if it's replacing another. Like, I thought that 834 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: was brilliant because oftentimes what we do is like Okay, 835 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,879 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that for later and we end up 836 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: washing it or putting it in the closet, which doesn't 837 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: need anything else to go into the closet, and then 838 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: it starts getting more hard to navigate. And if you 839 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,680 Speaker 1: don't have the rules, if you don't have the rules, 840 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: every decision becomes harder because you have to figure it 841 00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: out on a case by case basis. When you have rules, 842 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: it informs pretty immediately. You say, well, obviously this is 843 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: the rule I live by, and so I'm not going 844 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: to violate that. And and you're right, like, I'm I 845 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 1: appreciate you saying that because I am like the opposite 846 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,520 Speaker 1: of a rules person. You're like an outback steakhouse. Very much. 847 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: No rules, just right is my motto. And and so 848 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: but I need more of those rules in my life too, 849 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: because I do get overwhelmed sometimes by the amount of choice. 850 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 1: And I like choice, I like options, and I like novelty. 851 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: And I am not a minimalist. I will, I will 852 00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 1: openly confess, but this episode talking with Meg does make 853 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,319 Speaker 1: me want to incorporate more of those principles in my life, 854 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: even if becoming uh, you know, one of the supermintalist 855 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: people is not really um doesn't sound appealing to me. Yeah, 856 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: you can still use some of those same principles just 857 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: to inform your living and the decisions that you make 858 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: so that you just have a happier life. And again, 859 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: obviously this is how the money, and so we want 860 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,839 Speaker 1: you to implement these rules as well because we think 861 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: that they can help you to save more of your money. Yeah, 862 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: did you did you hear about Beg's budget for Christmas? 863 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: It was like, what two bucks for gifts? And she says, 864 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: I stick, I stick to that, and it was what 865 00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: a hundred bucks for kid? Yeah? Yeah, per kid? And 866 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 1: so those are the kind of rules too. That's another rule, 867 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: and that rule helps you save money, and of course 868 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: that's that's ultimately what we want for you exactly. And 869 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: when it came to her plans, you know, she was 870 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: talking about how those are hard plans, but I feel 871 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: like that those would be hard guidelines that determine how 872 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: she spends her money when it comes to gifts. But yeah, 873 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot here that you can take 874 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: from this conversation and imply it to your life and 875 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,319 Speaker 1: think about how it is that you can weave some 876 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 1: of these takeaways into your own life. But Joe, let's 877 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,200 Speaker 1: mention the beer that you and I enjoyed on this episode. 878 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,759 Speaker 1: This was a fantastic beer. By the way, let the 879 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 1: car get ahead of the horse a little bit. Let 880 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: me share the name of this beer, which was called 881 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:50,360 Speaker 1: Empire of Eternal Nothingness, which is a beer by Burial 882 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: out of Asheville, North Carolina. Maybe a metaphor for Christmas 883 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: spent hey maybe. So, man, this was, yeah, a really big, 884 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: flavorful stout. What your thoughts on it? Um? I loved it. 885 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,800 Speaker 1: I really truly loved it. Had some great chocolate vibes 886 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: coming through, some of those dark chocolate notes, but at 887 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: the same time, it was like it was just really 888 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,080 Speaker 1: really dark and beastly. I mean, this was a mammoth stout, 889 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: and I'd like a big stout it's not, especially as 890 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,040 Speaker 1: we're getting into these colder months. I'm like, that's perfect. 891 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 1: Bring on all the big stouts. So this one is 892 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,120 Speaker 1: was just delicious and Burial. I don't think I've had 893 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: a bad beer from them yet, and they just seem 894 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:27,799 Speaker 1: to knock it out of the park every time. Yeah. 895 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: So I definitely had some of those coconut notes going on, 896 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: and I still think that we might have a few 897 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,279 Speaker 1: more almond joys laying around the house from Halloween as 898 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: far as the Halloween candy. But it totally had some 899 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 1: of those chocolate e coconutt e vibes going on in 900 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: this beer. Uh. It said it was like double DiPT like, 901 00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 1: which makes me just picture like candy gargetting maybe yeah yeah, 902 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: and just like I don't know, double the flavor but 903 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,399 Speaker 1: as well as bourbon vanilla in this beer as well, 904 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: and you could totally taste those warming notes that you 905 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: would get from just kind of a nice pore of 906 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 1: bourbon neat where it's just kind of nice and warm. 907 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: Those are also the kind of flavors that you you 908 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: want out of the massive stout like this. I'm glad 909 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: you and I got to share this one today on 910 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,480 Speaker 1: the show. Seriously, would recommend any of Burials beers, but 911 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,479 Speaker 1: especially some of these crazy off the wall stouts. But Joel, 912 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: that's gonna be it for this episode. Listeners can find 913 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: our show notes up on our website at how do 914 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: Money dot com, and we'll make sure to link to 915 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,920 Speaker 1: Meg's sites as well as her book. That's right, some 916 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,040 Speaker 1: good tips in there for making sure your Christmas is 917 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 1: just a little more minimalist than it was in years past, 918 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: but that'll do it for this one. Until next time, 919 00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,